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Language: en
You want to live till 100, what's the
most important thing? Is it nutrition?
Is it being physically active? Is it
sunshine? Is it sleep? Is it modifying
our stress and lowering our stress? Or
is it lowering our pollution and
chemical burden? We can't say that any
one of those is any more important than
the other. And the literature is the
medical literature just explodes with
information about how damaging pollution
is. I see a lot of people with atrial
fibrillation. I tell them it's a
pollution story. your body. We know
inflammation is going on. Inflammation
is coming from pollution. And back to
the organic thing, the pesticides, the
chemicals are part of that pollution. If
you go into the grocery store and you're
walking around the grocery store, think
if you were walking with a caveman,
think if you were walking with Tom
Bill's, you know, ancestors from 20,000
years ago. What would he or she
recognize in that store? They would
recognize the green leafy vegetables.
They would recognize animal products.
They would recognize eggs, but
everything else in the center of the
store, they wouldn't. So, our ancestors
never ate wheat. They never ate gluten.
Why would we expect that we can eat that
now?
Everybody, welcome to another episode of
Health Theory. Today's guest is Dr. Jack
Wolson. He's a best-selling author and
board certified cardiologist. He's also
the founder of the Wolfson Integrative
Cardiology Clinic, a keynote speaker,
and the creator of the Doctor's Wolfson
line of supplements. His radical and at
times controversial views have been
featured on CNN, ABC, USA Today, and
many, many others. And where I want to
start today is all about lifestyle. So,
I have an obsession with I want to live
forever. That's the the God's honest
truth. Um, I know that right now I'm in
a collision course with death, but what
I want to talk about is what from a
lifestyle perspective should people be
doing if they really want to optimize
their health? Well, I think there's a
lot of different factors, you know, that
go into it. And that's what anyone's
goal is, of course, right? We want to
live a long life and we want to live a a
a healthy long life at that. where where
mainstream medicine really fails is that
we keep people alive
seemingly forever, but they're sick or
they're demented and and the quality of
life is absolutely terrible. So, what we
don't learn in medical school, they
don't teach us about lifestyle. They
don't tell us about nutrition. They
don't tell us about anything except for
pharmaceuticals. And therefore, we
really know nothing about cause. And
that's what I've become really is as a
doctor of cause. Typically where I come
from, someone has coronary artery
disease will say it's genetics, it's a
pharmaceutical deficiency, it's a
procedure deficiency, it's something
like that. But I've become a doctor of
cause and causation of trying to figure
out why someone has caused disease and
lifestyle is a big part of it.
All right. So the book, The
Paleocardiologist,
um, if if I were going to ask you to
describe that without being able to use
the word paleo, how would you describe
that? So, it's not just about the the
diet or nutrition. It's about, like you
said, it's about the lifestyle, living
the lifestyle of our ancestors in the
21st century. And I think that's going
to give us our best health outcomes. So,
if we think about things like sunshine
and the importance of sleep and just
being physically active outdoors and
avoiding all the pollutants and
chemicals, that's what it's really about
if you do want to achieve that
hundredyear lifestyle. One thing that I
think about as somebody of roughly
northern European descent is that [ __ ]
is cold. So the idea of people being of
of that descent spending a lot of time
um naked in the sun because I love
sunshine. What you talk about with
vitamin D and cholesterol, which I've
never actually heard somebody talk about
before. I thought was really really
interesting. You just moved to um
Colorado and I was imagining you out in
the snow bucket ass naked. Like how do
people in colder climates get enough
sunshine, live that one element anyway
of the lifestyle?
Well, for one, we did actually get
outside naked in the sun and it was 25°
and actually in the sun it was it was
very nice.
My entire family outside naked and of
course the baby too. We want the baby to
get all the health aspects. Is there a
cold exposure element to that that's
useful? Because that seems like if if I
if I were a hunter gatherer and I'm not
thinking, oh, I'm trying to live
forever. I'm just thinking it's cold. My
gut instinct is historically people in
that kind of environment would be pretty
wrapped up. No, no. I mean, they
certainly would. I wouldn't recommend it
for long periods of time. But the whole
point is we want to get that sun
exposure while we can because the sun
does an infinite number of things to
help heal us. It is fantastic for heart.
It's anti-cancer. It's great for your
brain. I mean, just so many different
things. anti-autoimmune. So, the sun is
an amazing thing which unfortunately the
talking heads on television tell us to
avoid. So, we're listening to these
people say avoid the sun. Get sunscreen.
Why would we want to avoid the sun? It's
been around for billions of years. It
was here before man was here in every
story of how we came onto this planet.
The sun was always here first. We should
embrace the sun. But to your point, it
has to be smart sun. So, we want it we
don't want it to be like we were on
spring break and we were in college and
we went somewhere and got our skin
fried. We don't want that. We want to do
smart sun and that's what we practice
and that's what we teach our patients as
well. You know, a few minutes here and
there and then slowly building up. So,
you're right. If you're of Northern
European descent, although we all came
from the equator, we all came from the
Middle East. We all came from Northern
Africa and then dispersed. If we do have
lighter skin like you and I do, we need
to be smart about it. You know, we could
talk science about it all day long about
what it does, like you said, for
cholesterol. We're all concerned about
cholesterol. What if high cholesterol is
a sunshine deficiency syndrome?
Yeah, that's really that's super
interesting to me. But, um, you're
talking about that that the interaction
of the sun and the cholesterol actually
turns the cholesterol into vitamin D.
Can you walk us through that?
You just said it right there. The, you
know, the skin uh is, you know, coursing
through the skin is something called 7D
hydroxy cholesterol. So our body takes
all these different paths to make that
form of cholesterol and then if the sun
hits it, it turns it into vitamin D. If
you don't get sun, then it turns into
excess cholesterol. High cholesterol,
low D, get sun, high D, low cholesterol.
And doesn't that sound better than
taking a pharmaceutical
uh than taking some artificial, you
know, way to lower your numbers down?
What if sunshine, which is free? And
people ask me, they're like, you know,
what do I do? I live in Minnesota. I
don't get much sunshine. And I say,
move, you know, move to southern Mexico,
move to Arizona, move to somewhere.
Otherwise, if you're living in Colorado,
whatever, just get the as much sun as
you can. Sun's out, guns out. What about
um cyclical living? So one of the things
that I find interesting and I have no
idea if this is real but you want to
talk about something that hits me just
sort of intuitively correct it would be
that that there are times to do it. So
if I think about us all uh meaning
anything like sunshine but there are
times not to do it. So um if I think
about okay the migration patterns of
humans going up through northern Africa
and then spreading out that as we do
that the skin lightens so that we can
generate more vitamin D with less sun
exposure. But are there times of the
year where we would have developed to
not get sun and is there something in
that and and literally this is not
something I have like some deep
hypothesis. Um but it's just an
interesting question to me. Are there
times where we should be avoiding it?
Well, I don't think we should ever be
avoiding it in the sense that we went to
sleep with the sun down. We awoke before
the sunrise. We saw the sunrise and then
we were working in and out of the sun
all day long. we're hunting and
gathering clearly in the in the
different lat you know in the extreme of
latitudes uh you're not going to get as
much sun in the cold and in the winter
and therefore you really need to stock
up in the summertime and and really un
in 21st century we have to really make a
concerted effort because we're not
having much of a reason to go outside
we're not farmers we're not hunters
we're not gatherers we don't need to do
that so we do need a more concerted
effort to do it
so coming back to um cyclical stuff. So,
sun certainly cyclical in certain parts
of the world and then food certainly
cyclical. Do you when you think about
trying to match where our ancestors were
in terms of lifestyle, do you think
about that like eating only things that
are in season? Um, is that an issue?
It's definitely an issue and I
definitely I want to keep it as simple
as possible for most people to be able
to follow. I do think clearly that if
you are from colder weather climates
then you probably were much more
dependent on animal foods than you were
plants. For example, Eskimos eat only
animal foods. Uh and and you know people
at the extremes you know once again they
were they were mostly hunters as opposed
to the gatherers. And then if you were
closer to the equator or you were in the
South Pacific or you were an islander in
Hawaii then your foods would have been
different. But, you know, back to again
about this vitamin D thing in the winter
time, you get vitamin D from eating
animal foods as well. So, that would be
your source of vitamin D. But again, the
sun is so much more than just vitamin D.
But, uh, I I do want to keep it easier
on people because we do get that
argument very often. Well, yeah, you
know, the the hunter gatherer in Hawaii
was different than the Eskimo, and
that's probably true. So, do you advise
on that? Like, setting the the really
simple advice aside for a second, do you
look at people's genetics? Do you look
at their ancestral path? Like does any
of that play into when you advise people
on a regimen?
Well, I I think we can look at some
genetics, but when I was going through
medical training in the mid '9s,
everything was about genetics. It was
going to be the human genome project is
coming out. We're going to learn all
about our DNA and all about our genetics
and it's going to revolutionize
everything. Well, it turns out we
learned about the genetics and we
learned it's not about the genetics. We
learned that it's about the epigenetics,
right? It's about how the environment
shapes our DNA and causes our DNA to
manufacture certain proteins or not
manufacture certain proteins. So, it's
not too much of a genetic thing uh you
know that I that I really put into it.
All right. So, now let's go to the
simple approach. So, um what are the
things that I'm going to want to do for
optimal living? So, we've got sun
exposure. Um there's going to be some
element, I'm sure, of exercise. Uh what
are some really prescriptive things that
you have on nutrition? Um I've heard you
talk a lot about organic, obviously
paleo. Um give us that in terms of what
should be in my fridge and my pantry.
Well, there's a lot of debate going on
as you know right now and I know you've
interviewed a lot of different people
with a lot of different nutrition
opinions, but you know, paleo and uh
huntergatherer ancestral diet, that is
the that is the original diet. Like
everything else is just a fad. every
other diet, no matter what it is, you
can say South Beach or Atkins, you know,
or, you know, veganism, those are all
fads. The original diet is hunter
gatherer, and we that should not be up
for debate. You don't tell or ask a
lion, hey, you know, what do you think
you should eat today? You know, the lion
instinctually knows what to eat, and so
should we as humans, but we've lost that
over the last 10,000 years. So, my book
is called The Paleocardiologist, but
it's not about paleo nutrition. It is
about the paleo lifestyle. And I say no
matter what nutrition you follow, make
it organic because you can have organic
cookies and cupcakes and ice cream. So
you can still have, you know, these
foods that you love, but just make them
organic so you get the chemicals out of
there. I think the USDA does a fair job
of certifying what's organic and what's
not. They make the the companies
actually jump through the hoops to make
sure the materials are what they are.
when it's third-party tested by
Environmental Working Group and others,
uh they do determine that pesticide
levels may not be zero in organic, but
certainly much lower. Organic wines, for
example, from California still have
pesticides, unfortunately, but much
lower amounts. So, we can only do the
best we can. Obviously, the air is
polluted, the water's polluted, the the
soil is not what it was. Broccoli from
Asia is not the same as broccoli from
California. So if we were to talk about
what's the most important thing for
health, you want to live till 100,
what's the most important thing? Is it
nutrition? Is it being physically
active? Is it sunshine? Is it sleep? Is
it modifying our stress and lowering our
stress? Or is it lowering our pollution
and chemical burden? We can't say that
any one of those is any more important
than the other. And the literature is
the medical literature just explodes
with information about how damaging
pollution is. I see a lot of people with
atrial fibrillation. I tell them it's a
pollution story. Your body, we know
inflammation is going on. Inflammation
is coming from pollution. And back to
the organic thing, the pesticides, the
chemicals are part of that pollution.
So, well, let's break that one down. So,
atrial fibrillation,
easy for you to say, right? Uh what what
exactly is it and why is it a pollution
issue? Okay, so atrial fibrillation is a
total pain point for people because we
can talk about oh what are some natural
ways to deal with blood pressure,
cholesterol, whatever it may be. But
atrial fibrillation is an irregular
heart rhythm.
And the irregular heart rhythm so
instead of the heart going boom boom
boom it goes bum bum bum bum bum and it
races and people feel lousy when they
have it. It's actually pretty common in
athletes uh what's called the athletes
heart. So I see professional cyclists,
professional basketball players, people
that even while they're playing, young
people come down with this condition.
The heart is inflamed leading to this
abnormal heart rhythm. So what is the
cause of the inflammation? And that's
what we need to find out. Once again,
nutrition and lifestyle. That's what it
is.
All right. So let's get to some really
specific ones. So you first said that
that was a toxin issue. What are some
common toxins that would lead to the
inflammation of the heart?
Oh, common toxins. I you know once again
just air pollution we know from air
pollution increased risk of everything
obviously cancer lung cancer but
cardiovascular disease brain disease
there's literature that says noise
pollution so if you live near an airport
or a busy road uh it's a problem as well
the noise generates stress and stress
leads to inflammation just stress alone
turns on inflammation genes yeah yeah
human survivors people that survived
over the over a million years were the
people that under stress they would be
quick to become inflamed because your
immune system would therefore be
stronger. Like I feel stress coming on
and therefore now I'm ready to fight the
animal or repair the wound. Well, now
that doesn't happen to us and that's why
chronic stress is so bad and chronic
stress leads to that chronic
inflammation response and inflammation
is just your body is just saying I'm
under attack
and we need to figure out why.
Okay, so those are some of the the
toxins. What are some dietary things
that are going to cause that kind of
inflammation specifically around the
heart just to keep it specific?
Yeah. Well, um, gluten, for example,
gluten, uh, uh, wheat. Um, I'm proud to
say that I coined the term leaky heart
syndrome. So, a lot of people talk about
leaky gut. Well, the leaky gut allows
things to get into the body that don't
belong. So, now the barrier of the heart
opens up as well, what we call leaky
heart. So, now the immune system and all
these different things that don't belong
in the heart tissue are there. immune
system comes in, immune cells die,
plaque forms, plaque ruptures, and now
someone's 55year-old father is dead. I
mean, that's how it goes.
Yeah, I heard you talk about that. That
and um leaky brain. I don't know if that
was also something that you coined, but
um that's super interesting to me. I'd
never heard anybody talk about that.
Now, in the gut, I'm aware of the lining
of the gut, which is a single cell
thick, if I'm not mistaken. Is there
something similar in the heart?
Exactly the same. It's called the
endothelial lining. So the gut is the
epithelial lining uh because it really
is continuation of the skin. And then of
course the lining of the brain is the
bloodb brain barrier. So when you do
have that leaky bloodb brain barrier
from a lot of different things uh yeah
you develop autoimmune disease of the
brain, you develop dementia, uh you name
it. So is this all that's really
interesting. So let's let's go deeper
really fast on the brain. So, you've got
people talking about um Alzheimer's as
being um basically type 3 diabetes,
which is interesting. I never thought of
it as being an inflammation problem. Is
is that to you sort of one and the same
or those competing hypothesize?
Yeah. You know, um that whole type three
of the brain I think is a bogus uh term.
I don't like it. It's still type two.
So, type one is where someone has
autoimmune disease of their pancreas.
They no longer make insulin. The type
twos still make insulin. It just doesn't
work. And that's the same process that
leads to uh brain issues, cognitive
issues, and for all those different
reasons because essentially the immune
system is attacking the brain tissue and
all these poisons and things that do not
belong in the brain are getting through
through that compromised bloodb brain
barrier. And so just going back to I get
what you're saying about it's not type
three, it's type two, but do you think
that there's a causal relationship
between elevated glucose in the
bloodstream and the breakdown of the um
bloodb brain barrier that's allowing
things to get into the brain that aren't
meant to be there, which is what
triggers the autoimmune response which
creates this sort of ever escalating um
inflammation. Is is is that basically
what's happening in dementia and
possibly stroke or is there something
else? So what happens is when when
glucose is high one of the things that
happens is that glucose glycates or
changes the proteins of the body of the
brain of the bloodb brain barrier. So
now those proteins are dysfunctional. So
when those proteins and enzymes no
longer work as well as they should,
yeah, you know, leakage happens, immune
cells are activated,
uh, you know, getting getting rid of the
cellular garbage, like nothing works
well when everything is just kind of
gummed up and glued and that all comes
from elevated glucose.
Okay. So when I think about things that
you're warning against like um a lot of
people having a gluten intolerance and
things like that um are there
vegetables for instance I think would
meet your sort of bill of health. Um how
do we begin to discern between
carbohydrates, things that we can eat,
things that we want to avoid, things
that trigger the um elevation of blood
glucose, the things that trigger the
inflammation in the brain and elsewhere.
Um and things that are helpful. Well, I
think that if you if you you know, if
you go into the grocery store and you're
walking around the grocery store, think
if you were walking with a caveman,
think if you were walking with Tom
Billy's, you know, ancestors from 20,000
years ago, what would he or she
recognize in that store? They would
recognize the green leafy vegetables.
They would recognize animal products.
They would recognize eggs. But
everything else in the center of the
store, they wouldn't. So, our ancestors
never ate wheat. they never ate gluten.
Why would we expect that we can eat that
now? But uh you know I am you know
familiar with a lot of kind of contrary
opinions regarding some of the
vegetables and are there lectins in the
vegetables and things like that maybe
you were alluding to some of the lectin
stuff. Uh personally if I if I if I was
in the wild and I saw cucumbers and
tomatoes I would eat them. If I have
followed a really good diet, if I
followed a pretty strict paleo diet or
huntergatherer diet and I still had some
health issues, then maybe I would dig a
little bit deeper into some of these
lectin, you know, containing uh items.
But I think the lectin containing
vegetables I don't think are really much
of a problem for 98% of people. And then
maybe we'll come into to the fruit
thing. So clearly fruit was different
back then than it is now. Back then it
was crab apples and wild berries. Now
it's a little bit different. When I
really take a step back and I look at
all of the things that we're doing to
influence our environment and things
that we take as sort of natural or the
way that it's always been, whether it's,
you know, raising wheat, which is what
10,000 years old, which is relatively
recent in the grand scheme of things,
we've been selectively breeding um
plants that would have, I'm guessing, a
higher glucose content, which makes them
taste sweeter, for a very long time. Um,
but when you say that fruit used to be
different, like if you had to give me
constituent parts, is it just that it's
higher in sugar? Like what is the
fundamental difference?
Yeah. No, well, first of all, there is
obviously the size factor. So, like I
said, a crab apple, you know, from back
in the day was, you know, much smaller
than your fist. Now you're getting
apples, you know, that are like this and
they've pretty much giant sized
everything. Uh, you know, but even the
nutritional content is is clearly
different whether it's from vitamins and
minerals. But back to you said, you
know, to the sugar level. So the
fructose of of the the current fruits
that are out there is just sky high. The
amount of caloric density that's in
there compared to the vitamins and
minerals has totally shifted. So now
it's really just super sweet. And like
you said, it's not like genetically
modified foods, but it is hybridized and
has been selected out. 100 years ago,
which apple tree had the sweetest
apples? And then they just kept planting
those seeds over and over and over
again. And now we're in the situation
we're in. So, you know, these people
that are like uh they're fruit addicts
because of the sugar and they think it's
being healthy and it's clearly not.
I was going to ask, I obviously have an
intuitive guess as to what you're going
to say, but do you treat fruits and
vegetables like most people group those
together like they're the same thing? Do
you think of them as as very distinct um
items or should we be eating five
servings of fruits and vegetables every
day?
Yeah, I think they're totally different.
They are totally totally different. One
is super high in sugar. Uh the other
obviously most you know green leafy
vegetables you know broccoli, kale,
shard, dandelion greens, those are all
totally different. Um you know I think
the healthiest people are best to keep
their fruit intake a little more on the
restricted side. I'm not saying don't
have it but maybe you know kind of be
seasonal about you know about it too.
Maybe at this time of year maybe more on
the citrus side in the summertime more
of the plums and the stone fruits. And
what I like to do is Tom is when when
when the season comes in per se and it's
stone fruit season, I'll indulge for for
a week or two and then I'll kind of back
off and say, "Okay, it's time to get
back to to a lower sugar, lower
fructose, you know, semblance of of
nutrition. Walk me through a a super
typical day for you." And I I never want
to put people into like one day because
I'm sure that there are sort of
variations for you, but I want to know
everything. What time in fact, we'll
start the night before. what time you
went to bed, what time you woke up, do
you work out, what do you eat, where did
you get what you eat, like all of that
so people can really understand what
your lifestyle looks like.
Wow. I'm getting like anxiety thinking
about it. I've got three I've got I've
got three children, one of which is a
one-year-old. My life is total chaos.
I love that though. That's perfect
because I think so many people align
with that.
No, I and I totally agree. So, the night
before we go to bed uh we go to bed
typically at around 8 8:30 this time of
year. So, so essentially when the sun
goes down, we're pretty close to getting
into bed. That is the best for us. It
study after study and the and common
sense tells us go to sleep with the sun
down, awake with the sunrise. Nobody
does that. I mean, before the sunrise
and we watch the sunrise. Nobody does
that. I mean, the average time people go
to sleep is midnight. But that's why
there's so much sickness because
everybody's staring at their cell phone,
their iPad, their iPod. And I'm not
telling you I I would I would ask people
not to do that. And if they want answers
why they're sick, that's why. Now it's
up to them. But no one ever told them
that. Like no one ever I taught 83y old
woman from from South Korea and she's
like no one ever told me that it was bad
to stare at my electronics until 3:00 in
the morning. She's 83. I said what are
you doing until 3:00 in the morning? And
she said she's on her tech. All right.
So I wake up.
Um I do have a couple cups of organic
coffee. So I grew up in the Midwest. My
father was a coffee drinker. I became a
coffee drinker. As much as I want to
vilify coffee, when you do it
organically, there's some pretty darn
good benefits of especially organic
coffee, very high antioxidants.
Why do I want to vilify it? Um, it's an
addiction. It's a crutch. Um, from a
cardiology standpoint, it can raise
blood pressure. It can cause
palpitations. But once again, if you're
going to do it, do it or, you know,
organically. And I don't want to piss
off everybody here by throwing coffee
under the bus. So, I don't want to say
that. When I speak from the stage, I'm
like, "No one throw coffee at me." But
no one's going to do that because
they're so addicted to coffee. They're
like, "I'm not going to waste my coffee
throwing it at that guy." Um, anyways,
so I wake up um and and then I just I
start getting ready for the day. As far
as the kids lunches, my my two older
ones do go to a uh school, and their
lunches are paleo lunches, so they're
different from everybody else. They do
get lots of vegetables. They do
typically get some fruit. We do a lot of
sardines. We do uh wild salmon. We'll do
chicken and pork and all kinds of uh
meats that are in there as well.
Sometimes just eggs. Uh if there's a
farmers market, we'll go to a farmers
market. We'll try and shop local
whenever possible. Try and get outside
in the sun. Uh when you think about
exercise, and when I think about
exercise, um it should be outdoors. It
should be outside in nature typically
with your shirt off or you know just the
idea of exercise is not sitting inside
on the treadmill with your headphones on
or your Wi-Fi on getting blasted with
EMF electromagnetic fields from the
environment that you're in there with
all the different cleaning agents and
bleaches that you're smelling all the
entire time uh with uh you know in the
artificial lights watching
some horrible television show that just
gives you more stress. Get outdoors and
it's free. It's I mean any time of year,
no matter what the weather is, you can
bundle up. I used to cycle with a group
in Chicago and the motto was there's no
such thing as bad weather, just bad
clothes. So, uh that's kind of the day,
you know, spend the time, you know, with
the dog and of course I'm working. And
if I'm not if I'm not seeing patients uh
in the office, then I'm writing or you
know, whatever podcasting.
And so it's do you and I'll ask about
your kids. Do your kids eat typically
three meals? Do they graze? Like what
are your teachings on that one?
Yeah. No, they they typically eat three
meals. Yeah. They'll do a breakfast,
they'll do a they'll do a lunch at
school. They'll often get a snack. So we
pack their snack as well. And uh and
then dinner is dinner. Yeah. So they get
the three meals. I haven't brought them
into like intermittent fasting or
anything else like that. Uh I think
there's probably value to that, you
know, as they get older and more of, you
know, but essentially what what happens
in our house is that if we are basically
done with dinner by 5:30, 6:00, they're
not eating again for another 12 hours.
So that is somewhat of a fast, per se,
but I'm not into necessarily fasting
just for fasting's sake. For children, I
don't think it's really uh anything that
we need to get into. As an adult, I
think it is great for for a cleanse, for
a detox, if someone's looking to lose
weight, if they've got certain health
issues. Uh I think it's worth it. I like
the 36-hour fast. So, you have a dinner
on a Saturday night, and then you have
nothing all day Sunday. Sunday, you
know, once again, just water um uh water
in the morning, noon time, evening, and
then you wake up Monday morning and have
an avocado or a greens drink. So, it's a
36-hour fast on a weekly basis. I like
that. So, what symptoms would somebody
have to be presenting for you to say
fasting would be useful here?
Well, certainly if they're overweight, I
think it's uh very beneficial if if
they've got a lot of food addictions. I
think one of the best things about
fasting is that it breaks food
addictions at least temporarily. I mean
I do obviously I understand all of the
biochemical benefits of it but I think
there is a lot of mental to it as well
that when you are stuck in this rut and
all you are doing is eating quickie
carbs and you're eating sugar or you're
drinking alcohol whatever it may be that
if you go into even that 36-hour fast
and you really stay determined to do
that once again when you wake up 36
hours later you're not craving a piece
of chocolate. I mean you probably known
this maybe if you've done fasting
yourself. It's like typically you're not
like, "Wow, I can use a glass of wine or
I'd like a beer or a hot fudge sundae."
You typically want something healthy.
And at least that's been my experience
personally uh with my patients as well.
So once again, these these food
addictions, I think the the fast is a
great way to break them. Yeah, it's
interesting. So, in doing um keto, which
would be fun to talk about, um but in
doing keto and doing it for long periods
of time, in taking my carbs down, in
having a um an identity around not
eating carbohydrates
over time, and I will say over a fairly
long period of time, I ended up not
being very interested in eating overly
sweet things. Um you hear a lot of
people talk about that with keto. For
me, it definitely was not instantaneous.
It was just a a whole lot of years of
living a low carb lifestyle. Um largely
to manage my weight because I put on fat
incredibly easily. Um but after doing
that for a long time, yeah, I just sort
of didn't think about it. And then my
wife had profound microbiome issues and
in trying to unwind some of that, we
just weren't eating junk food. We
weren't eating a lot of um anything
other than just whole food, meats,
greens, etc. Um and so just you do that
long enough and you start to break your
addiction to that mentally. But I will
say that like from a um an ancestral
path, the one thing that I think gets
planted in us, which we're seeing play
out in a horrifyingly negative way right
now, is you're incentivized as a hunter
gatherer to [ __ ] gorge. And when you
have food, you want to eat as much of
that food as you can. When you come
across sugar, which back then would have
been pretty rare, you want to stuff your
little face full of it. When you think
about being an ancestor, part of what
worked for them was they couldn't get a
hold of it. Because I think if you took
an ancestor on that shopping trip with
me and you took them into the center of
the store, they'd be [ __ ] stoked.
They'd go crazy. I mean, we're literally
seeing that play out now, which is
interesting. How do you think about that
when you're dealing with a patient, you
know what they need to do, but they're
struggling to actually comply?
Well, you know, I'm uh you know, listen,
obviously I understand all that. Uh, I
do tell them when you're talking about
paleo foods, there is no set limit. So,
you can eat as much salmon as you want.
And if you were, if you came across a
raw salmon, you would only eat so much
of it. Your body would say enough. Now,
when you cook it and you start adding,
you know, barbecue sauce or dipping it
in ketchup, as you know, uh, yeah, then
there's no more set point. You will go
until you until you bust. Uh, you know,
so that's that's totally true. But with
patience, I mean, listen, it can be
difficult. I do think that um if if
somebody can get a a coach, if somebody
can get a health coach to keep them on
that plan, someone who's like a chief
accountability officer like much like
you and your wife may do it or how my
wife and I do it. If one of us is kind
of going a little bit too crazy and it's
typically me, then the other one's going
to kind of like, you know, rein you in a
little bit and kind of get you back into
reality because as you said, it's it's a
horrible addiction. There's no doubt
about it.
Yeah, for sure. I want to go back to
something you said earlier about the
athletes heart. Why do athletes get the
um the heart issue that you were
describing before where the the beat is
like out of rhythm?
Well, there's there's several different
factors, but I think certainly it's
linked to inflammation. So, when the
body is inflamed, we need to figure out
why. When the when we exercise, we
generate a lot of free radicals as we're
our mitochondria are spitting out
oxygen, but they're also spitting out a
lot of kind of damaged products. Well,
in order to combat those damaged
products, we need the antioxidants.
We need those healthy foods. But the
typical cyclist or endurance athlete,
they have a, you know, sugary Gatorade,
for example, or they have, you know, I I
remember when I used to do uh uh, you
know, distance races. There was one
there was one time where at the 20 mile
mark, they had a crispy cream donut
stand.
So, and and you know, if you're
constantly feeding yourself kind of
foods that are not satisfying and you
know, the need for the, you know, the
oxidative stress happens, you need the
antioxidants. And if you're not getting
those, your body's inflamed and aphib is
one of the issues, but those people can
get hypertension. You look at people and
like, "Oh, that they look so healthy.
How'd they possibly have a heart
attack?" Like Bob Harper from America's
Biggest Loser. How'd that guy have a
heart attack? Well, I can tell you a
million different ways. From what I
guess, I don't know personally, you
know, but the guy's inside of a film
studio, you know, all day. Lives in New
York under constant stress. I don't know
what his diet, you know, was totally
like, I think it was probably pretty
good. How much sunshine do you get when
you live in New York? You think that guy
was going to sleep at 7:30, 8 o'clock at
night? Probably not. So, with all due
respect to him, I don't mean to call him
out, but he's been such a a uh face now
for cardiovascular disease and he's been
a spokesman for big pharma now. Um, when
people need to understand that this guy
had a, you know, cardiac event for a
reason, had a heart attack for a reason.
And that's what we need to figure out.
Yeah, that's Wow. It is pretty crazy to
think that people that are in that kind
of shape are actually creating problems
for their heart. What do you think about
distance like ultra endurance marathons,
guys that are doing ultramarathons? Like
what is that doing to the heart? Well,
you know, our ancestors once again, they
didn't run marathons. So, I think when a
lot of people do that, they are are
prone to have issues. So, uh I'm more of
the sprint activity, burst activity, the
high interval, you know, training. Our
ancestors, their activity was running
after food or trying to avoid being
someone else's food or handtohand
combat, uh, building shelter, getting
water from over there and bringing it
here. That's just what we did. But the
science is pretty darn clear that that
short burst activity, raising up the
heart rate up and down, you know, that
up the mountain, down the mountain
activity is better than just plotting
along on the treadmill in in the poison
for 45 minutes. If you had to pick
something that's popular, whether it's a
sport or a style of um exercise, what
would you say if you were only going to
let people do one thing? Is it
wrestling? Is it football? Is it tread
or not treadmill? We know it's not
treadmill. Out running on the street,
like what is that one thing that comes
as close to perfect as we're going to
get? I I do like soccer as an activity,
especially for young kids. I think
soccer is absolutely fantastic. Uh I do
like open water swimming. If you can do
open water swimming,
why open water soup specifically?
Uh because if you're in a pool, you're
in a chlorine soup and you're breathing
in the chlorine and the chlorine's in
the skin and chlorine just destroys
everything. Uh including kids. So, um as
much as I grew up in a chlorine pool, uh
I sorry to throw throw water on that
parade, but uh so I mean, if you can get
a different quality pool, uh uh there's
different, you know, ozone pools and
copper ion pools, there's all different
things you can do now. But, uh, you
know, out here in California, if you can
jump in the ocean, do open water
swimming, I think that's the best. I
also like tennis. I think tennis is a
great game. Uh, perfect example of kind
of burst activity, chasing, you know,
ball back and forth a little bit, then
you get to rest. So, I do like that.
That's interesting. Um, what do you
think about So, with soccer, I love
soccer. Really enjoyed playing it as a
kid, but I super worry about the head
trauma of hitting balls. my my
11-year-old
uh he in in his league they do not allow
the use of the head on the ball and I
think and that's what I'm thinking about
I think as when they become 12 or 13 and
certainly once they get in the high
school years then they start allowing
them to do it I don't think using your
head is the biggest deal in the world
obviously when you talk about brain
trauma and concussion but I think we
need to be aware of it I think I try and
tell my you know my son if you need to
do it do it don't shy away from it but
don't aggressively look to use your head
as an object in in sports. And I think
the other thing is it's one thing to
head the ball, but if two kids are going
to head the ball at the same time and
they collide, that's pretty
catastrophic. But
are there any sports you wouldn't let
your kids play?
Uh wouldn't let them play football.
Yeah, that's for sure. Wouldn't let them
play football. After that, I think we're
Yeah, we're pretty good. Uh I do love
the outdoor activities. I love just
going for a bike ride, going for a walk.
I love hiking, stand up paddle boarding,
kaying. Uh just once again just getting
outside as much as possible. I think
they do need to be supervised as opposed
to how we grew up and just you know go
uh you know go ride your bike and uh you
know come back uh you know six seven
hours later. No one's going to do that
now. But uh get them outside. Yeah. No
one's going to do that now. I don't have
kids for a reason. One of the reasons is
I don't want to have to answer the
question of should you just let them go.
But my parents would let me ride my
bike. I mean it had to have been four to
five miles away from the house. This is
at like 11, which now seems insane. But
in terms of like earthing and getting
outside and playing in dirt, like what's
your take on that?
Yeah, I mean, listen, we all feel better
at the beach. We all feel better when
we're walking barefoot at the beach. Uh
I love the idea of getting outside,
walking barefoot. Our ancestors were out
there barefoot. Like what's going on? Uh
I mean there's so many different facets
of it whether it is that grounding thing
where you're connected to the earth and
electron transfer you know from the
earth up into the body. Uh I think
that's part of it but I think also is
that you know our we the way the way
that our bodies the way that our spine
works. My wife is a doctor of
chiropractic. So the way that we are
genetically designed is to be barefoot.
And once you start altering with that
barefoot and putting shoes on, now you
change the functionality of the bones,
the muscles, the t the tendons, uh, and
that leads to so many people with back
issues and neck issues and ultimately
cardiovascular issues because as you
have disease in the spine and the
autonomic nervous system that impacts
the heart because the heart is
innervated by the autonomics,
parasympathetic, sympathetics, blood
pressure is all related to that, atrial
fibrillation is related to that
cholesterol is related to autonomic
function. So would you say that if I
walk barefoot that would improve my
cholesterol? I'll say yes really. I
think all those different factors when
you lead the healthy lifestyle you get
the great results. So I don't want to
vilify cholesterol. Cholesterol makes
our you know cholesterol as we said
makes vitamin D. Our brain is full of
cholesterol. Every single cell in our
body has cholesterol in the cell in the
cell membrane that encases every cell.
Our digestion comes from uh cholesterol.
are sex hormones. Testosterone is from
cholesterol. Why would you want to lower
the precursor to testosterone if you're
a male or estrogen, progesterone if
you're a female? Uh you wouldn't. You
wouldn't. You want to find the perfect
level for each one of us?
That's interesting. So, what do you
think about self-experimentation? How do
we do it? What blood level should we be
checking? Um yeah, how do people begin
to get their head around finding that
perfect level? Yeah, I think that's an
awesome question because you know you we
can all talk uh theory uh and and theory
is great, but sometimes it's good to put
it to practice as far as okay, what are
my objective numbers? So, you're
following a diet, you're following a
lifestyle, you're taking a bunch of
these vitamins and supplements. Great.
Are they working? And we can test that
now. You know, we didn't have to test it
10,000 years ago because it was perfect.
Now, it's not. So we do need to test and
that's where you can look at markers of
inflammation, oxidative stress. You can
look at advanced lipid numbers. So
you're looking at particle numbers and
particle sizes. You can look at blood
sugar. You can look at uh the immune
system activity. You can look at
intracellular nutrients. Like one of my
favorite nutrients to order is uh
vitamin K. So there's companies that can
test what's called your micronutrients.
So your vitamins and minerals
biopsy for this
inside of the cells. there's red blood
cells, white blood cells, just a simple
blood test, and these companies have the
technology to take a look and tell you
what's in there. So, are you getting
enough things into the cells that
matter? So, our typical doctors now,
they check serum levels, for example, or
blood levels of magnesium, but that
doesn't matter. The action for magnesium
happens inside of the cell. So, you have
to know what's going on inside of the
cell. I'm as a cardiologist and I'm
dealing with someone with atrial
fibrillation or hypertension or whatever
it may be, heart failure, I want to know
what are the nutrients that are getting
into the cells and if they're not, I
need to figure out why and then also try
and flood the system with those
particular nutrients to get them inside
the cells.
What are some common reasons why
somebody would be having a hard time
getting nutrients into the cell?
So, uh, common reasons obviously first
of all, they're not taking it in the
food. They're not digesting the food.
They're not absorbing the food once it's
in their bloodstream. It's not getting
where it needs to go. It's getting where
it needs to go, but there is a receptor
deficiency. So, the catcher's mitt for
the magnesium or for the vitamin isn't
working because either it doesn't exist
genetically or autoimmune attack or
there's a heavy metal or some kind of
plastic environmental pollutant that's
blocking it. Uh, but now say it gets
into the cell and once again there could
be other factors inside the cell that
are blocking it as well. So yeah, that's
kind of a long-winded answer. I
was going to say that that got
complicated real fast.
Yeah, but there's but there's a lot
there's a lot that but that we have to
look at all those different factors in
order to really make someone healthy.
Let's target one for now. A lot of what
you were describing I think based on
other things you've said we could sum up
as inflammation. Yes. Okay. So
in fact would you say sitting at sort of
the heart of certainly the things that
you deal with as a cardiologist is it
inflammation is that sort of like the
core thing that we want to attack?
Well, you know, inflammation is
certainly is the buzzword and every
garden variety cardiologist, the 40
cardiologist that I left, they
understand that inflammation is a bad
thing. But their answer to inflammation
is a statin drug
is aspirin is some other pharmaceutical
statins being build is addressing
inflammation specifically.
Sure. Yeah.
Interesting.
Yeah. No, no, no. Definitely. So, uh,
historically it was about cholesterol,
but clearly they are anti-inflammatory,
which statins can lower cholesterol.
Statins can lower inflammation, but do
they dramatically change outcomes? So,
if guys like you and I take statin
drugs, do they lower our risk of having
a heart attack, stroke, or dying? The
answer is some studies show say yes by a
little bit, but we need better than
that. Like, that's not good enough for
me, right? I don't want, you know, to
lower my risk from 7% to 6%. That's what
the statin data shows.
I want 0%. I don't want to die. My
father died at 63. I don't want to die.
I don't I want to be, you know, I I
became a father, you know, the third
time when I was 47 years old. I got a
one-year-old. I'm 48 years old now, and
I'm laying in bed with my, you know,
with my baby daughter. Like, I want to
live. Um, and we're not going to live
with pharmaceuticals. That's very clear.
So, back to the inflammation. We need to
find out why the inflammation is there.
And again, it comes from nutrition and
it comes from the lifestyle. And by
lifestyle, I mean all the environmental
things that are going on and the sleep
and the sun, you know, and and the
stress factor. We want to know where
people are at and we want to address it
because we cannot be successful without
helping mental issues.
Yeah, no question. Um, talk to me about
heavy metals really fast. Where are
people getting those in their system?
Uh, where do people get heavy metals in
their system? Heavy metals can be coming
from the air. So, air pollution, if you
live in an air polluted city, you can
get it from there. Uh, you can get, you
know, let's let's just take uh aluminum
for example. Aluminum and a lot of these
metals can be in your cookware. So, your
cookware is a main main source. And a
lot of these people now, for example,
bone broth has gotten very popular. What
do you cook your bone broth in? You're
going to put your food in some 24-hour,
36-hour boil, and now you're drinking
this down. You better have good cookware
to get it. Uh,
give away good cookwware cuz my wife
eats the most bone broth.
Uh, our cookware is Salad Master. So,
Saladmaster, it's been around for 75
years. It's surgical stainless steel
cookware that is titanium coated. So,
it's the same utens, it's the same
material that they use on surgical
equipment. So, it does not leech any
metals into the food. Um, what else? Uh,
you know, obviously, um, uh, vaccines
contain aluminum, vaccines contain
mercury, so you're going to get heavy
metals from that. Different
pharmaceuticals, seafood can have it.
So, I tell people not to eat big fish.
uh tell people not to eat uh uh tuna,
um uh shark, swordfish, you know, things
like that. Tell people to avoid those.
Uh but the small fish, wild salmon,
sardines, anchovi, shellfish, those are
all good to go. Um yeah, those are I
mean, but but that's really the thing is
that you can also but you can get tested
for heavy metals very easily. So get
tested, see where you're high, look up
where you may be getting that exposure,
and then number one, get rid of the
exposure. Number two, now you start
having to come up with the
detoxification pathways to get those
metals and contaminants out of the body.
So that comes to things like glutathione
boosters. Glutathione is the main
antioxidant made in the liver. You want
a lot of it. You can test it. You can
test intracellular levels of
glutathione. Uh so once again to and
whether that's sauna or or
uh uh uh you know light therapy,
different ways to once again kind of
detox the pollutants out of the body.
Mhm. All right. If people were going to
make only one change that would have the
biggest impact on their health, what one
change would you want them to make?
It would be to embrace the sun. It would
be the embracing the sunshine story. So,
for example, there are tribes in Africa.
And the tribes in Africa, they're
they're obviously hunter gatherers. They
live outdoors. They live in a somewhat
uh you know, pollutionfree environment.
And uh yeah, they get they go to sleep
with the sun down, awake with the
sunrise, get tons of sunshine. They've
done studies where they've fed those
people fast food, junk food, and it does
nothing to them. Nothing. Yet, if you
bring them out of their climate, and you
put them into our average lifestyle,
they get sick.
So, the food is a factor, but it's not
the only thing. And it really is, once
again, it really is kind of all those
different things. So I hate when people,
you know, put me on on the spot to say
one thing because it really should be
that whole traumat. But I will say, you
know, like I said before, eating
organic, I think takes you to a
different level because that way
whatever your vice is, you can do it
organically without the pollutants,
without the pesticides, without the
contaminants. And I'm sure you know,
drinking organic coffee tastes just as
good as any other coffee that's out
there.
I have no idea cuz I don't drink coffee,
but fair enough.
All right. tell people where they can um
find your book, where they can learn
more about you.
Uh so our website is the drswolfson.com
and doctors is abbreviated DRS. Uh you
can buy the book on my website. Uh I do
have a podcast called the Healthy Heart
Show and I interview some fantastic
people. And then we're on, you know,
Facebook and and social media. Some of
my opinions are pretty controversial, so
I don't know if I'll always be on uh
Facebook and uh on places like that, but
uh we'll see. There it is. All right,
guys. If you haven't already, be sure to
subscribe. And until next time, my
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