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you train as if you have nothing train
as if you are dead broke and poor
as if this is the only way
to break out and so i also was a little
bit i was a bit afraid of me satisfying
and looking at those medals and being
like oh like you're the man just you
know like
this is your time right and i think
there's a confidence in that that's
important but i would rather i like
being the underdog even when i wasn't i
just would tell myself that i was the
underdog and so by tucking those metals
away i never
i never satisfied that ego to say like
you've done it
and you can do it again
um
instead it was like oh i have i have a
chance winning a medal and i can do it
again and then same thing when i retired
people say like wow man like you were
tired like why are you so
why are you working so hard like what
are you chasing
and i've asked myself this question
what's the answer and i think it's a
combination of i actually enjoy working
hard um that's become kind of almost a
part of my dna where it's work but it's
also it's like deeply fulfilling to see
progress
apollo ono welcome to the show yeah
thanks for having me dude i'm very
excited about this you are the most
decorated winter olympian of all time
and more importantly you've written a
new book hard pivot about how to have
that next chapter in your life which i
think is really extraordinary and we're
going to get to all of that but i want
to start with the dichotomy that i find
most interesting in your life which is
even in interviews from when you were
competing
to now you seem like a different person
like watching those interviews it is
very apparent that something has changed
inside of your mind
uh and i want to understand that
dichotomy of
really going hard at something and truly
being you know the greatest
and then
finding i won't say balance because i
hate that word but if you prefer that
word but certainly finding um love in
this new challenge that you're pursuing
and i think the entry point for this is
the
having a father that was so disciplined
and hardcore and not growing up with a
mother
walk us through
what that was like with your dad
specifically
yeah i think it's always um
an interesting kind of context to peel
back so you know my dad grew up in japan
he's japanese had moved to the united
states
he was born in 45. okay so um intense
time to be born in japan intensely born
in japan
and you know kind of fled japan to come
to the us against all of my grandparents
what age
i want to say he was like 17 or 18. with
a dream
or i think with
with just a belief that the americana
system would
give him more fulfillment than what was
waiting for him that he felt was very
prototypical japanese culture which was
was that his word fulfillment
no it wasn't his word fulfillment i i
think more importantly he just was
searching for something that was just
different right like
in japan especially back then
you study
to study for the next test to prepare
you for the next test to prepare you for
a job that potentially you'll be in for
like 40 50 to 60 years or maybe until
you pass
and that was kind of what my grandfather
wanted for my father and i think my dad
noticed quite early that he would he
wanted to go against the grain
and didn't speak a word of english
didn't have any money
you know he came to the u.s the pacific
northwest where where i where i grew up
but that's where he landed and then from
there he basically began his life just
trying to figure out how to survive in
this country without speaking the
language without having any money um i
think he only arrived with like you know
the the electronics from japan which he
sold like a camera and that's how he
began his life and he had every single
job imaginable um and i give you that
context because that's how my father
came to this country basically in a
state of struggle
and survival and and he's that's how he
communicates today he's like i was just
trying to survive it wasn't even about
trying to become ultra successful or
wealthy i literally was just trying to
figure out how i can survive in this
country and he found very quickly that
there was kind of a plethora of
opportunities for him to exist and to
pursue
my dad went down this rabbit hole of of
basically becoming what i would call to
be an artist you know he started cutting
hair and became like a
a barber slash like hair stylist
and his shop still is open today in
downtown seattle on on fourth and bell
and the same shop this whole time the
same shop wow yeah the same i mean
it's the same shop from i would say like
he's been open for like almost 40 years
now oh right how did he raise the money
i had never asked him that actually man
that's well yeah he's had partners right
so i'm assuming at some point um you
know
you start to save and you can accrue
some value is he charismatic
he's unique
all right all right he's he's unique my
dad speaks in
like weird like riddle slash haiku
yeah like he seems really philosophical
at least as you present him very
philosophical which is intriguing and
we're marching towards the story i know
you know exactly what story we're
marching towards but
i wanna lay the groundwork okay so he's
got partners he's unique manages to
convince people i'm so curious like the
the immigrant mentality it seems almost
universal right like i can make it i can
get there then it's hard
and the people that make it through have
like this intensity that they want to
impart to their kids
and obviously that's where you enter the
picture but what's really fascinating is
so from what little i know of japanese
culture
very traditional very regimented very
much a box there is a right way to be
and then there's everything else um and
so i'm getting that he obviously chafed
with that wanted to come here but had
that drive and and had obviously imbibed
some of the discipline that the japanese
culture has been known for for so long
how does that come out in his parenting
i think two ways one
my dad didn't want me to grow up being
like a japanese kid per se so what would
that have meant i think uh like speaking
me in japanese
eating only japanese food
philosophically and i think you know
using this term of kind of like just
focus on what you're doing you know
don't worry about these other things
just kind of be quiet and do your job
and be successful and try to be your
best and and dedicate yourself to this
path he was very open actually very open
and he kind of drilled into me at a very
early age
whatever you want in this world you can
accomplish and it's yours but he also
like underneath that context was this
like idea that i was at a disadvantage
and i don't know if because he thought
that we were because of our lack of
resources growing up we just didn't have
any money
but that was kind of imparted in me in a
way that he basically said
i believe your potential is infinite in
this world like literally he would say
this all the time
you have limitless potential
over and over and over again
i didn't believe it i didn't even know
really what that meant when i was a kid
i mean to be gone
but the way that he placed me into
academic advanced programs when i was
very young
into how he pursued all the different
activities after school because he was
still working that he would basically
place me and so i would be so busy after
after you know going to school that i
would be so tired when i by the time i
got home he didn't have to worry about
what was happening he noticed quite
early that i had like an uncanny amount
of energy that was somewhat um
relatively like new to him
and he had to figure out a way to
channel this energy
in some sort of positive light and i
think most kids typically choose sport
or sport chooses them so to speak sport
chose me i always say that you know i
was i did swimming i did traditional
american stick and ball sports i loved
boxing and football those were my two
favorite sports and i wanted to be a
boxer my dad
effectively shut that down almost
immediately
very wise um
and then i wanted to be a you know i
want to be a running back i want to be a
boxer
did you like to fight as a kid yeah love
the fight i was like rambunctious on the
playground you know it's not like i was
beating up other kids but i think i just
i was competitive pretty naturally
and
you know i'm very glad that he said no
to boxing like i a i don't think i would
have cut it b
um i i'm just not built in that way but
i was i'm curious why do you think so
you end up winning more medals than any
person in the us in history in the
winter olympics but you don't think
you'd cut it as a boxer what is that i
don't know i think just like um there's
elements i think of fighting sports that
i really gravitated towards so like even
in my early days of living in the
olympic training center i was the only
non-wrestler to be inside the olympic
training center uh sauna
um because only the wrestlers i mean by
the way it smelled so bad in there like
that's probably a good reason why
um but you know it was right next to the
wrestling room in the colorado springs
otc olympic training center and i just
remember like you know being in the
sauna with my dad growing up and then
him kind of telling me that this was
going to be a place where my mind was
going to become sharp
i didn't really understand that um and
then kind of being a fly on the wall
with these grown men cutting weight who
looked like
they were carved out of granite and then
they had to drop like another 12 to 20
pounds
and then watching the psychological
process of these individuals do that and
here i am huddled up in the corner
wearing my beanie and sweatpants i don't
have to cut weight for speed skating but
there was something around the extreme
environment
that i saw within them that was really
interesting and it was this ability to
kind of go above and beyond what
atypical sports science would say this
is okay for a human to go through
because in theory
right you cut weight you're dehydrated
like
mere hours before you go and compete or
24 hours before you compete how can you
possibly sustain fighting another human
for the most intense match of your life
but
these guys possess this almost like
like this like supernatural
um
mental toughness that i really wanted to
have like my sport
on the outside looking in like we were
spandex and race around in circles like
i don't fight any other human beings
right but i wanted to be that warrior
that i saw within them and my father i
think when a very early age
wanted to instill some type of like
warrior mentality in me at a very young
age and that
exacerbated in a wide variety of ways
one of which like when i was in you know
south of seattle doing like roller
skating and like making the roller
skating speed skating team
you know my father was working all the
time so he didn't have the opportunity
to take me to these actual training
sessions and practices and so he did
what he thought what was the best was he
was going to wake me up at the age of 12
at like 3 30 4 o'clock in the morning
and take me to these empty school and
church parking lots put a miner's light
on my helmet and then with our old
volkswagen rabbit just have the
headlights on and i would just skate
around in these empty locations and he'd
have this little like wooden clipboard
and like i guess he was taking lap times
like i don't even know
honestly like thinking back i don't even
know what the hell we were doing
i don't think he really knew what he was
doing he just thought that
this was how you do it right this was
you have to put the work in in some
capacity and right or wrong when you
peel back that life experience like what
was being embedded in me
was this
just this fundamental belief around like
the hard work and the dedication and
sacrifice to do what others are not
willing to do
in times when others won't even question
was he saying that or is this what
you're taking away because that phrase
to me is so powerful this is my
articulation many years later at the
time i deeply resented my father right i
had a disdain for him i i would probably
even use the word hate my dad at certain
times when i was growing up i think most
you know kids in their their early teens
especially if their dad's dragging them
out to go skating at 3 30 in the morning
yeah yeah and he was like we had brutal
fights in the house like i was
i was just completely on the opposite
side of authority and he represented
everything that was authority this like
almost militant figure
that
isn't is male there's no female in my
life to show me this soft side of like
nurturing and care my dad loved me like
make no mistake and he gave everything
to me but in the way that which that was
showing up on a daily basis was um not
in the form of like like abuse but it
was very strict
and it was strict because he just
believed that i would adapt
and he started telling me that he's like
you're like a chameleon
any environment that i place you in you
will adapt anywhere you go and so this
for those that don't know you won the
state championship in swimming yeah you
go on to do what you do and skating so
he's not wrong he's not wrong and so he
saw something i think in me at a very
early age especially when in relation to
like sport i'm not like a big guy right
so there's probably like only a handful
of sports that i could physiologically
be more attuned with and
when i saw the sport of short track
speed skating it looked kind of like
what i used to do in the roller skating
rink like on friday nights with my
friends and they're like oh let's go you
know here comes like the speed skating
round
um and then now we were like tooling
around this like local ice hockey rink
with like these old mattresses from the
junkyard like taped together on the
outside to provide the padding system
and this was like getting ice time at
like midnight because it was the only
time that we could afford to get like
all my friends from the roller skating
rink to come try ice speed skating
together and just mimic
was like 12 and a half 13 years old
that's so crazy yeah and my dad would
drive me there and then you know because
i grew up in seattle he would drive me
across the border to vancouver bc and
that's where i really fell in love with
the sport because i had seen it done in
a professional atmosphere
and the canadians who love winter
olympics
were incredible at it and as a young kid
who watched this sport on television
when you see it live it actually doesn't
look real it's just like weird like
these these these angles that you that
you are leaning over on one leg and
they're just like whipping around these
corners doing these pivots on each
corner and i was like that's the coolest
thing i've ever seen it also looked the
most close to what i thought would be
like a superhero without the cape right
i mean same outfit kind of wearing a
helmet flying around on the ice a
self-propelled thing on this like
18-inch blade
um
where'd you refer to them as samurai
swords yeah yeah because they're so
sharp right um
yeah but it also so here's what i'm
trying to tease out so you have matured
you've changed the way that you look at
things
you bring a spotlight to both the
rewards of the discipline and the
rewards of finding a different rhythm in
your life
and i'm curious
to know what you think like you're gonna
have kids i would assume i've heard you
say my future children before so i'll
just presume
uh
would you wake them up and take them out
at 3 30 in the morning and make them
practice
i don't think i don't know actually um
hopefully i'll have more resources and
time to not be able to have to not force
them to do that
but i do think that there's a lot of
value in being thrown out of the nest
i think there's a lot of value in that
did you see king richard i haven't seen
it yet no so for those that don't know
it's about uh venus and serena williams
father and it
dude the parallels between
your dad and their dad are pretty
interesting so venus told me yeah like
he just had a vision like before they
were born yeah before they were born
this is what i'm gonna do and would take
them out even though it was dangerous
like he would get them on the courts and
and just really put them through
something and they loved it so you know
not to take anything away from that but
put them through something that other
people might look sideways at and be
like is this right is this abusive like
what is this
and i'm curious is somebody who's been
through it and i think talks very
honestly about the good and the bad like
sort of where you come down because
greatness from my perspective demands a
price yep and if you want greatness
you're going to pay that price and if
you don't want greatness you don't need
to pay that price
but now to really get weird i've heard
you make references to
some of the things that are happening
culturally in the world right now and i
i do ask myself
if as we back off and look at things
like that and say i don't know that his
dad should have done that
that it you get less and less people
achieving greatness
i think it
comes down to how you define greatness
first and foremost
i can only speak for myself if my dad
had not placed me in these types of
situations and environments or if i had
not operated from those psychological
places of fear
or anger rage there is no way that i
would have been able to for me
able to achieve that level of
performance given my genetic makeup and
ability my natural god-given talent
genetic makeup i was capped in that
environment i needed to go outside the
realm
and what i have seen in terms of
patterns of amazing businessmen business
women actors actor actresses
athletes politicians whoever
we always we talk about like a chip on
the shoulder some type of micro trauma
that occurs in their life
these are areas or components where i
think almost everyone who has done
something that is uncorrelated with a
traditional path
has gone through and there's some rough
or hardship or traumatic experience and
it can be simple
it can be
this kid used to steal my apple in
elementary school and that triggers
something may or may not in someone's
brain
that creates this mechanism of
i need to protect myself fortify myself
strengthen myself whatever it might be
and i'll give you one particular example
what i'm talking about because it was
someone who's i was very close to my
life
um my strength and conditioning coach
was someone who had taught me the abil
the the potential of the mind and body
and where it could go above and beyond
what i thought i was possible of
achieving
and he told me his background and story
one time and this guy's story is so
crazy he was basically on his own
outside of philadelphia from like the
age of eight or nine years old basically
homeless
no parents no grandparent nothing on his
own
sees his first murder whoa this far away
at the age of like nine and a half
this woman gets shot like six times in
the chest
and as he tells us he goes i can still
he's like 60 something years old he's i
can still hear the thump thump dump in
that chest
so that experience of him seeing someone
who used to open up the gate for for the
um
for for like traffic or like some
railroad or something to come through
he used to see her all the time and he
kind of bounced around house to house
foster care to foster care and so this
psychology of like not being wanted not
being good enough for anyone to love had
started to seep into this human's brain
and what did he do that would that makes
all the sense in the world was he starts
pursuing a life of powerlifting and i'm
not saying talking like a little bit of
power like i'm talking extreme
powerlifting like getting under
550 cold and reverse grip like repping
like 15 to 20 reps right on bench
stuff like that and and just fortifying
himself on the physical realm
with so much mass
but inside this individual is actually
deeply scarred and fragmented and broken
as many of us are
and that was the way that he expressed
himself and so in my life particularly
and in relation to what you just asked i
think we're going through a very
transformational time
globally both in terms of politics
society needs and expectations
like you know all of the geopolitics
that exist in the world strong men
populism
inner conflict and fighting inside of
our own country what's right what's
wrong tribalism identity politics all
these things
and a lot of it is stemming
from
this idea that people want to subscribe
and be a part of something because maybe
they don't have their own identity for
themselves and it's much easier to turn
their face and look towards something
else but also
in that psychological framework like
with my friend what i was talking about
i think sometimes when we think about
performance on the extreme end of the
barbell it does take
individuals
you have to tap into the darkness right
and everyone has some semblance of
darkness you're human right that's
natural
i mean the goal here is not to go so to
become so engulfed where it's so toxic
where you basically shut the world off
and i've been on both sides of that coin
where i've shut off my team where i
haven't talked to my team for like i
didn't talk to my team one time like
five weeks straight i didn't say a word
to like most people that's like weird i
mean i spend six hours a day with some
of these people and it wasn't because i
wasn't satisfied with them it was
because this internal angst and chaos
that i wasn't able to come to
um understanding with that i just felt
like i personally wasn't good enough it
wasn't good enough i'm so far behind i'm
so unsatisfied with what i see
and so the self-acceptance component was
i i never even looked in the mirror to
actually look in the mirror besides like
washing my face and getting ready or
brushing my teeth or making sure i don't
have something in my teeth or something
like that but like there was never like
an actual and i think most people don't
do this today where i look in the mirror
and see
who i was in everything in all the
essence i was never
i was just not present right i was
present in my flow state but i was
thinking about a past experience in
which i lost which drove me and gave me
the anger hatred rage fear insecurity
self-doubt to motivate myself and lean
on that lever to propel and to do
something that was extraordinary and i
used extreme training in the sporting
realm as a way to find what that was to
get that affirmation that hey you are
doing something that no one else is
doing and so therefore you must be on
the right path and i think it all all
this conversation comes down to if you
want to put it simply i probably just
wanted the affirmation of the person who
i sought the most love from was probably
my father and then maybe on a
subconscious level even the mom who i've
never met right so i think all these
things i didn't know any of this stuff
by the way when i was competing all i
knew was that i was obsessed i wanted to
win
and i
really deeply lacked empathy in every
essence of what that is
which i like am not proud of today right
i'm proud of the performances that was
laid out but the other humanistic
components of being this person who i
became
um was cold and shut off and played the
poker face and if you would ask me how i
feel
for seven years straight i'd say i'm
okay i'm okay i'm okay and internally
there was like deep conflict and
dissatisfaction with the person who i
saw
you know and i
when i retired in 2010 i didn't know i
was going to embark upon this like
personal journey of like reinvention and
self-acceptance and all the stuff that
we talk about today but
my father started to drip on me a
different type of psychology when i
retired
and he started to say things more in the
light of
you don't believe it today but your
sport is merely one chapter in your life
and your greatest is yet to come
i was like how do you how can you say
that like i've done something that no
one else has done before like i don't
know if i can ever replace this feeling
of passion and excitement and the
world's like applause of giving me the
external like yes this is your purpose
this is why you're here on earth
and then me feeling like that maybe
wasn't enough and i want to do something
else so i think look psychology and
human behavior is like a fascinating
topic and why we do what we do and
there's been countless studies and books
written on this stuff and it's taken me
a long time to understand myself about
why i behave the way that i do
why do i do what i do in relationships
why do i do what i do in friendships
what am i chasing what's important to me
am i still
satisfying the status quo or i'm
actually pursuing something that's
important to me as a human in my life
and then so
you know my father this is why i love my
dad so much is because he's like he's
always telling me these cool things and
he's basically like forcing me to say
zoom out that that's what he's basically
always saying zoom out you're spending
so much time
on the smallest of granular details
which by the way are important in your
in your kind of chapter that you're
writing today but without you taking the
time to detach and zoom out for a second
to see
are you actually headed on the
trajectory that is going to give you a
life well lived and what how do you
define a life well lived is also a part
of that process my father doesn't live a
life well lived according to most of the
population in the u.s
but to him
he has purpose he gets up every single
day he has some semblance of ownership
over his business even though the
business doesn't really make money
doesn't care it's like a means of like
bartering for food right you eat money
give money come in from someone he's
cutting his hair goes out and buys food
to satisfy himself and he just engulfs
himself in this kind of
cyclical relationship and some will say
well that's not financial freedom or
that's not you know freedom from the
system my dad begs to differ you know
and i think he thinks things are a
little bit different and so
i i just like the past 12 years have
been spent
pursuing this idea of like unself and
then trying to understand how other
people operate what's driving them
what's important how do they make it how
do they make it so to speak so that we
can better understand that idea what is
a life well lived according to apollo
ono
oh man
so i just had this conversation with um
president clinton
it was like three weeks ago you know as
you do he has a podcast by the way are
you serious yeah i did not know this wow
um he's a podcast and so
yes
i i we were talking about this kind of
life well lived and for someone who had
like talking to the nelson mandela's of
the world and it was talking to all
these world leaders and people who've
faced like insurmountable conflict at
one time but has to like show up for the
people it's just fascinating topic a
life well live for me is i think one
that i feel aligned with my true north
which is this kind of unique element for
me personally which is how do i help
other people
find the light again in their life find
some semblance of like inner flame that
tells them that they can do the hard
stuff and continue on to persevere
throughout whatever internal
conversations are being had that maybe
have been limiting them for so long
whether it's a year 10 years 20 years
maybe it's a relationship maybe it's a
job maybe it's the internal prison
between their own two years whatever
that might be
i just hopefully can show people not my
way but several ways in which they can
explore to see
how am i interacting with my day-to-day
um sorry um and then how do i stay more
in alignment with that purpose
which is a part of this kind of overall
like life well lived
and i think you know i talk about in the
book this the five golden principles um
i think some of those are deeply
embedded around giving give those to
people real fast yeah so these these
five golden principles that i've found
to be pretty relevant or at least
commonalities that exist within
individuals who i who i see to have done
very excellent transitions and
reinventions in their life
first one is gratitude second one is
giving third one is grit fourth one is
gearing up or setting your expectation
and the fifth one is go getting into
action so like no more paralysis by
analysis like no more perfectionism um
paralysis is what i used to have so like
these different components these five
golden principles and and they're kind
of in that order in a way where
i think that you know living in a world
where like we are incredibly blessed
right like your setup here is like
incredible you get this beautiful place
like you've you've earned it and you've
you you should be reaping these awards
and so having that gratitude to be able
to have great conversations with all
these people who come through your door
like that's amazing right like that's
really really unique not everybody can
get that and then your ability to
radiate that energy to the world is also
a very unique position not everyone has
the ability to do that either and so
you've been i don't know like i think
about gratitude in a way where like i'm
grateful to be here having this
communication with you because i feel
like this is going to amplify messages
perhaps that people already know but
maybe need to be reminded of
the giving component is time energy
resources but also yourself the best
possible chance of having success i used
to self-sabotage a lot in races and also
in training
and i think there was this like
subconscious layer where i was afraid of
showing up fully because fully wasn't
enough
and i thought he wasn't enough or you
were afraid it wouldn't be uh i would be
afraid of dealing with if i showed up
fully
and it wasn't enough i would have to
deal with the fact that hey like you
just weren't good enough today right
better to hold a little back and if you
lose as well i didn't give my everything
yeah it's like one percent there or like
oh you know i just need to focus more
whatever that
that compromise is that you're having in
your brain
versus the person who
goes out into the lead early on in the
race puts himself out there prefontaine
style and and gasses out and says like i
left it on the table like that is
incredibly admirable and so i had that
fear and also many i think people also
um they kind of self-sabotage without
even knowing whether they start january
first resolutions relationships whatever
they might be
um grit is self-explanatory right like
that's a prerequisite for life like
it's gonna be hard
it's gonna be throw you curveballs
you're gonna get knocked down and you're
going to fail and it's going to suck and
it's going to hurt and there's going to
be pain
and you can metabolize that pain or that
pain can blanket you and keep you
submerged that choice is yours
that fundamentally is your choice and no
matter what circumstance or situation
you're in there's always a way to
perceive
and react
eventually respond to that predicament
in a way that actually best suits the
outcome that you truly and utmost really
desire that's that's that grit
what's up everybody tom bilyu here and i
have a question for you at the start of
this year you likely set some goals for
yourself and i want to know how those
are going
most people give up on their goals and
dreams by february but i have some good
news
if you're not on target to succeed at
the things that you want to achieve this
year it's not too late and trust me when
i say you are not alone everyone gets
stuck and loses momentum towards their
goals at some point myself included if
you know what you're doing and you're
willing to take massive action though
you can get back on track the trick is
not to think about being stuck as a
problem with your motivation or to
interpret your lack of results that
you're getting as a sign that you're not
smart enough the trick is to recognize
that the game that you're playing is a
game of neurochemistry it's about
managing the way that you think about
yourself and framing things in the right
way if you use your brain more
effectively repeat things that empower
you you can actually find ways to solve
problems faster
create positive habits and behaviors
that you know are going to help you
reach your goal i want you to take
massive action right now so i pulled a
workshop from impact theory university
called the six steps to getting unstuck
and i want you to watch it right now
it's going to help you get back on track
with your goals and make the rest of
this year your most successful ever to
watch it go to unstuck class.com
and register for access i'll walk you
through the same process that i use to
get through obstacles and make fast
progress towards my goals whenever
something slows down all right guys
enjoy this and be legendary take care
now i've seen your training so i know
there was a lot of pain metabolizing for
you how
one how do you metabolize physical pain
and how do you metabolize emotional pain
when i was training in the olympics
physical pain was one that i was seeking
i was always seeking physical pain and
so you're telling yourself this is what
i have to do to win or
what what's actually playing in your
head that allows you to stay in that
level of discomfort it was
every day was a bit different right so
as i learned more about sports
psychology there was different various
techniques in which to
embrace pain
so communicate with pain physically in a
way so we would we would use the bike
and or a stairmaster
or we do these things called low walks
where we basically put on a weight vest
and you're just doing like very low like
90 degree walks you know what in the
skating position sounds
well
yeah when you're doing like around a 400
meter oval um on like like a track
basically miserable it's miserable right
and like your coach is yelling like if
your knees ain't bloody you ain't going
deep enough you know it's like what is
this old school dude telling me you know
like does that make any sense why do my
needs knees need to be bloody like and
so like i think metabolizing that
physically was like i went through
various stages in my career um one was
you know this is a natural physiological
response to what's happening your body's
producing acid now it needs more oxygen
it needs to be
the reason why you're in this tightened
state and you feel this like lactic acid
almost in your gums is because your body
is actually being poisoned by this
buildup that's actually happening and
that's okay it's going to actually flush
through and so
david creswell was the first sports
psychologist i ever worked with
he basically told me he goes why don't
you just observe it observe the pain
actually feel it see where it's actually
coming visually represent that in your
cellular system and so we got very in
tune with what that looked like and then
later on in my career we went i tried
like various different experiments with
like deep meditation to almost where i
was like a trance-like state to where i
was able to to maintain a threshold that
was so high for so long where almost
basically like your vo2 max like you
should basically peak and then fall
right um
and then with training you're able to
kind of peak and then sustain this peak
for like a weird un like a weird like
ungodly amount of time that shouldn't be
possible um because your body's just
able to sustain this amount of pain so
we played around with that and then when
i met john my strength coach
that was like a whole new level of pain
um
when we like when we decided to like
reinvent the way that we thought about
training and transitioning beyond like
the blueprint for success that worked in
the previous two olympics in my life was
actually not going to work for the final
olympics of my life because the sport
had changed there was new athletes with
new techniques new body types new
physiologies new equipment and
technology and my playbook so to speak
was being read by the world since 1998
they had had they had the playbook since
98 they had studied me
and you know throughout that process we
just we had to figure out to go to the
next level required me to mentally
go above and beyond what i thought was
possible so
that was in a form of like some pretty
extreme training
all right so we're learning how to deal
with pain we're very much in sort of the
warrior mentality thing
one talk to me about that universal
applicability of the skills that allowed
you to be great
and then
talk to me about okay i went through it
i did this i don't know that it was an
optimal way but it yielded a phenomenal
outcome but now that i'm older and more
aware i know which pieces to bring with
me in my next pursuit of greatness and
which ones to leave behind
and then we can nest that in the great
divorce or we can deal with that
separately
yeah the transition stage was tough
because i had knew that known that these
attributes were fortified and become
solidified in my body in my mind and had
you enumerated them like were you now
like okay i am tenacious i'm gritty like
do we have the
the five g's already or no not not when
we're retired when i retired i was
i knew retirement was coming because i
had set my brain
internally i didn't tell anybody that
like two years out from the games this
is probably the last olympics
so how do you leave it all on the line
regardless of outcome and still walk
away being happy but when the time
actually came when the closing
ceremonies occurred and i came back home
i was actually very confused the first
year i was still training like twice a
day i was like what the hell are you
doing man there's nothing to train for
like why are you still getting up going
for these runs and doing like speed
skating exercises i was just so
conditioned to believe that this is what
i had to do
and part of it's like my own you know
like you just feel better when you train
and work out you just psychologically or
just be feel like you're more calm at
least it was for me
and i just felt lost i felt like i was
like paddling this like boat my my whole
life and i was like looking down and i
looked up and there was like no land to
be found i was like in the middle of the
ocean i had no idea which direction was
going i had no idea where i was i had no
idea what other skill sets that i had
and we talked about this because in the
book i you know i was like fundamentally
lost
i knew this was coming everyone had told
me at some point that when you retire
apollo you're going to have to figure
out what it is is going to replace the
passion
and drive you had for speed skating and
for the olympics into the next realm
i was like yeah i understand like of
course of course that's that's always
going to happen i'm going to win in
business i'm going to do all these
things and
i had no idea what i was going to get
myself into and so i spent a lifetime
saying no to everything that didn't
involve me performing at the highest
level possible and what i realized quite
literally was that i had two things one
super curious naturally just curious
just about learning and like just want
to learn about things
and two i started saying yes to
everything
and that was the real catalyst for me
and luckily i was young enough to be
able to say yes to everything but even
though i was like 28 years old don't
forget i was like 28 going on 18
because my personal development and work
experience was confined to that of the
locker room right i hadn't done anything
else from basically when i was 14 years
old until i retired at 28 i did nothing
i didn't do any other activities i did
like angel investing and stuff i had no
idea what i was doing literally it's
like no idea it's like throwing darts
right um
and
when that occurred
i didn't tell anybody about kind of what
i was thinking but i was like deeply
afraid of trying to figure out what i
was doing and i started just chasing and
chasing and chasing going and spending
time in asia trying to do cross-border
deals learning about different
businesses
and that was the amazing part was me
seeing in real time
the immersion that i did in the olympic
space and then having that kind of
relentless pursuit in the same way even
though it was out of a fear of not
succeeding and feeling like the world
expected me to succeed and whatever else
that i did in my life which is like not
necessarily true right but i believed it
i believed that the world said hey man
you're five years behind you should be
retired by the time you're 30 and you
should have this this this this and this
these are the things that you have to
have in order for you to satisfy the
external signals that are telling me
there was no one telling me that it's
kind of the michael jordan thing no one
was telling me that these things were
important
i just was that's how i was receiving
the information i was like processing
that and so i got stuck in this hamster
in the cage mentality where i was just
like sprinting and sprinting and
sprinting
and then i realized
probably about two years into my
retirement that
i could get off the i could get off this
like treadmill i was actually in control
i was this i was the governor of my own
speed limit
what was stop keeping you stuck was it
external validation
because you weren't grounded in who you
were
i don't think i knew
entirely what
or who i was outside of the sport
i knew very clearly who i was when i was
pursuing the olympics
when you removed that those barriers
that provided me the guard rails of
support to ping pong towards my goal
what messed with you though like not
knowing what to do with your time or
not knowing if you're cool or
valuable all the above
all of the above
right i had the guardrails before were
my coaches the training program the fans
my father my friends
the medals the competition with the
pursuit in a drawer which i kept in my
door
um something interesting there they're
in a bag now they're like an old baggie
um
because did you know from the beginning
you didn't want them to matter or
you know someone had said something to
me in the sauna a long time ago in the
olympic training center and they i it
might have been
i don't know who was better than marion
jones and she said something like you
train as if you have nothing train as if
you are dead broke and poor
as if this is the only way
to break out
and so i also was a bit i was a bit
afraid of me satisfying
and looking at those medals and being
like oh like you're the man like this
you know like
this is your time right and i think
there's a confidence in that that's
important but i i would rather i i liked
being the underdog even when i wasn't i
just would tell myself that i was the
underdog and so by tucking those metals
away i never i never satisfied that ego
to say like you've done it
and you could do it again
um
instead it was like oh i have i have a
chance winning a medal and i can do it
again and then same thing when i retired
people say like well man like you were
tired like why are you so
why are you working so hard like what
are you chasing
and i've asked myself this question
doesn't say what's the answer and i
think it's a combination of i actually
enjoy working hard um that's become kind
of almost a part of my dna where it's
it's work but it's also it's like deeply
fulfilling to see progress
i think that's what i'm really after i
like to see the progress i like to see
things like little puzzle pieces come
together
um in this like team environment or with
a business whatever it might be
and then
um the other component of this is like
during this transition phase in this in
this this reinvention was like apollo
you can't expect that your medals or
your bio of what you were subscribed to
and married to your whole life
is going to carry you for the next
generation and if you stay handcuffed to
that you're always going to remain as
such
and that's why i never went back to
coaching although i have friends that i
deeply respect for them to go back
for me and the way that i saw it was
that was my easiest path
and the easiest path was not to go back
to the sport
the harshest path was to do something
completely against the grain and
different kind of what my dad did when
he came to the u.s
against all other wishes of saying build
your brand focus on this stuff and and
do these things and i've been very
blessed to receive all that stuff but
i never really actually worked on it it
was just kind of organically coming in
the door and instead i said i want to do
something totally different and i want
to be recognized as such for these
efforts out there and so that's where
this chameleon-esque like mentality
began
of how do i transition from this one
soul identity and then pour the cup out
and begin again and i'm brand new i'm a
baby no one knows me in the room people
question why i'm actually in the room
where did you go to school
why do you have like no finance
background or knowledge and that doesn't
feel good right also you're 26.
yeah you look
26 i'm not 26 no i know yeah but yeah
damn i'm sure that does not help
doesn't help um even today people uh
like one of my partners is 25 years old
um and he's like this guy's brilliant
you know and like i feel like i'm 25
right that's also part of the problem
because my my life was stunted for 15
years like
our growth in the locker room was when i
was 14 to like when i tried like i said
so
again all these components i think are
fascinating and i think the real like
deeper contextual conversation here is
like if you are someone that has been
married to a previous identity which is
natural right you at some point will
have to break free from that
and there's attributes and things that
made you great at what you did but it
wasn't actually what's on that business
card it wasn't the title that you
achieved that is who you are it's the
things that make up the construct it's
the four year journey the eight year
journey of the things that i did when no
one was watching behind the curtain
that made me a champion how did you pick
the next thing like as you're pivoting
so you're out at season so many things
so just explore that was the beginning i
just explored i mean i did everything
from like manufacturing software
hardware technology manufacturing that's
so random when i was reading the book i
was like what yeah that was about the
last thing i expected the winning
dancing with the stars that made sense
going into broadcasting that made sense
going into manufacturing that was
confusing even real estate i was like
okay okay but like manufacturing what
is just opportunistic
right i i saw an opening
like i'm racing
there's an opening looks like it's a
unique position i'm gonna take it and
i'm gonna see where it runs um
i think sometimes we live our life as if
we're never going to die
right and i think that i deeply lived
that from like the age of when i retired
probably until the age of like
35. meaning for you it was okay to lack
focus because you're going to live
forever i was focused don't go wrong i
was very focused on what i was doing
but i don't know that i had a 10-year
like plan here right i didn't like say
okay when you're 45
how are you going to look back it was
like what do i got to do today next hour
next week etc and how do i continue on
this path to just win
but also there's like something
fascinating around learning something
new like i think that that's that that's
really like to me it's like super
exhilarating and
i didn't know at the time but you know
the the the people that you can
hopefully surround yourself with should
really be i talk about this in the book
like your personal board of directors so
to speak those people are really
critically important to your overall
growth
and they're hard to find communities
hard to find tribe is hard to find right
and i think that those things are
critical so
that's how i began man like when i when
i retired in 2010 12 years ago i had no
idea where it was going to take me
i had no idea the different things that
i would experience and the people that i
would talk to and i had other people my
agents and my managers
telling me why don't you come back to la
and pursue a life in the entertainment
industry
and i and i would like just do it to
satisfy them but there was i never
really actually did it and i loved film
and i still love film and i love the
creative arts and it's beautiful
i just felt like
that there was something else out there
that i needed to go and explore and
satisfy this curiosity that existed even
my father would he would ask me like
what are you doing like why like who are
these people that you're hanging out
with like like what are you doing
surveying this like piece of land that's
like 300 hectares in southeast asia like
what are you gonna build a brand new
central business district like yeah yeah
i'm gonna help uh i'm gonna help do some
stuff there you know like no idea what
i'm doing but just trying to fast just
trying to learn as fast as i possibly
can um
and that's like that to me has been
incredibly rewarding in so many ways
take away the finance side take away the
success side just purely from a learning
perspective it's been it's been so
powerful um internally to just grow as
that person
and then now being 12 years retired look
back at my life and be like
man like
you've experienced so many things and
there's so many people who have had the
same type of internal conversations that
you have had around their own lack or
not being good enough or fears
how can you help these people
not shortcut but basically accelerate
their process towards aligning with
their true north and that is the
shortcut the work is a shortcut that's
one thing you say that i absolutely love
okay so the work is the shortcut you
want to help people find that figure
that out
as you go through all of this stuff now
like you're so it's and i said this
earlier but you're so different now i've
seen enough footage of you when you were
racing like you're idling when you were
racing it's just different than you're
idling now yeah i have a guess as to
what i'm picking up on but what do you
think i'm picking up on what is the
difference
um
so i think there's two things that i
think about often because when i watch
myself when i was competing and talking
i actually don't recognize that person
and nor do i remember
what i was talking about like it's
almost like it was a different
personality that was there that is very
much how it feels because that's what it
was
don't forget tom my life was in this
microcosm that was so small so i believe
the world worked like this this and this
and i constructed my own reality in that
realm
right
and when i retired i realized very
quickly that there's a lot of people who
just don't care about speed skating
to put it simply they just they don't
know about it they don't care what did
that do to your mind though it just like
it blew me apart right just in a bad way
no it like lit me up
saying like
i've been living
in the locker room did it light you up
in a there are other worlds to conquer
kind of you thought for a minute like
alexander the great i have conquered
everything that came of one of these
medals no it was never about conquering
it was it was about i think it was about
exploring
it was just so much more to discover
there was so much to the world people
cultures diversity food businesses the
dynamics of international business like
was so fascinating that
i saw the same things i used to study
in sport around human behavior i would
start to exhibit the same type of
analysis when i would meet someone
and i was like whoa like what am i doing
like i'm almost like i'm playing poker
right this is like very interesting like
what's actually happening here i'm not a
good poker player by the way um because
i just i wear too much emotion um today
i probably would have been a pretty good
book player when i was competing because
i was just like very stoic and i was
just either happy or just stoic that was
like that was it
so i think like
you know like to answer your question
like it
this whole
idea around
exploration and having this like natural
curiosity is almost like a child it gets
trained out of you when you start to to
have these like calluses in your body in
your mind right and that's exhibited by
failures pain friendships relationships
financial loss whatever it might be
and then it stops becoming fun
and it starts becoming much more about
work and that's okay
but i think that there's something
really unique around
seeing someone who's 40 50 60 years old
that almost is childlike
in their exploration around play
right just like someone who
i don't know like there's like when you
look like for example when you looked at
ronnie coleman
and he's like yelling in the gym
he's like laughing
that's like a sense of play this man's
about to move 800 pounds
in a back squat and he's like kind of
like having fun with this
warren buffett he doesn't care about the
money he's all about playing the game
he's having a playful experience with
his investing right so i think that
there's this resurgence around
yes you have to embody the work because
it is a shortcut and by the way the
lowest hanging fruit
for anyone to accomplish something is
just by doing the work because everyone
is distracted and so if i but by you to
eliminate the bs out of your life and
focus on what's really necessary and
required you're like light years ahead
of most people immediately that's like
from a competitive advantage point of
view that happens to be the standard now
that you can surpass very easy
and so you combine that with this like
play
of i'm doing the work but i'm also
exploring in a way that's naturally
curious i think that's like a very
powerful outcome and it also i think
helps with learning right because you're
starting to explore things that you find
are fascinating
okay so in all of this it's such a
profound change i'm curious when did you
stop hating your dad
uh
i stopped
i stopped hating my dad i think probably
when i was like 16. okay so still in the
thick of like the hard core [ __ ] but
something switches in your mind
yeah and i think that it was replaced
with sport was it a realization that oh
wow like he's really helped me become
world class because by that point you
were a phenom i was already winning i
was number one in the us yeah it was
more of like a
my father also started to back off the
more i progressed through sport
he was still there but he just kind of
let me do my my thing was he still
dropping haikus and oh absolute wisdom
abs all of the time my father even to
this day
even like like like a couple of days ago
just the way that he communicates with
me right whether it's about like just
life in general about travel about being
grateful
about
telling me and reminding me how most of
the world lives
he's very in tune with that because you
know like i i've like had success i've
seen amazing experiences and and
experienced things that i think have
just been like astronomical and he
always brings it back to center he's
like don't forget
effectively the human experience for
most people and this is what's still
important so as you chase and you chase
and you chase don't forget to re-center
and bring it back
and so my dad is he's a beautiful soul
and i wish that he would write a book
because i think it's really interesting
how he views the world
his experiences throughout life of
having to survive
having me at a very young age and
deciding to take full custody and not
knowing what to do and if there's any
listeners who are single parents like
i'm sure it's hard really hard
and
there's times when you probably feel
like you're just not going to make it
and figure out and my dad had those same
exact conversations and there's this
picture that he sent me i'll send this
to you after we're done he emailed this
picture to me and it's a picture of him
sitting on a couch like this and a
picture of me as a baby i'm like holding
on to his pant legs
and he's like looking at me literally
just like this and you can almost think
in his head he's thinking like what am i
going to do with this kid i don't know
how to raise you
and he writes this to me in the text
he's like yuki says i don't know how i'm
going to raise you and it says a-a-o
that's what he calls me a oh paula
antonino ao it says don't worry dad i
will raise you
and that was like super interesting so
i'm like i'm i'm deeply grateful for
those experiences i'm deeply grateful to
have you know experienced some of that
hardship and that psychological trauma
that was sometimes self-inflicted
maybe because i i needed someone to
compete against um and maybe the
teammates weren't there so i needed to
have it internally whatever that might
be
and even more grateful to be able to
share that stuff with people today
because i know that people are in pain i
know that they want more from life and
they deserve to experience it in the
maximum way possible
and
one of my partners has 86 86 400
tattooed on his on his left forearm and
it's 86 400 seconds in a day got it and
i always wondered because when i first
met this individual i saw so many
similarities
um in him that i saw 20 years ago in my
younger self this is like obsessiveness
around
maximizing every minute of the day and i
realized that he is doing this he has a
family he has a huge business very
widely successful
like he just operates at a different
level and so i was drawn into this idea
around
how much time
do we waste per day on things that don't
really matter
that are in a self-deprecating state or
um inflicting pain much deeper than it
actually is required right um
and i i realized very quickly like
i just there's lots of [ __ ] that we
do throughout the day you know a lot and
some of it's necessary by the way like i
don't want anyone to be like militant
here but i do think that there is some
governing that needs to be recalibrated
as we go through this
massive technological shift that's
actually overcoming the globe
and maintaining the human component
because we're still operating these
devices at our will
and so we need to start acting like that
versus the other way around
and then taking back control over the
steering wheel right
most of us and i've been in that
position
just kind of go through life in the
passenger seat right and just being like
this stuff's happening to me it's just
happening to me versus happening for me
and a lot of this is like deeply rooted
in just behavioral psychology and so
look the internet is an incredible
resource of knowledge and
that's where i've gone down the rabbit
hole of learning about myself and
having therapy myself working with other
people
and then communicating with friends and
people about what what drives them
what's been their kind of itch what was
their
chip on the shoulder what's driving them
um what's driving this activity what's
driving the behavior
and is it in alignment with what's
really important so i just i constantly
in i just encourage people to ask them
like what do you want from life
and what do you be what do you believe
life wants from you
when you zoom way out
right what is that answer like what is
it for you for me
i want from life to be
surrounded by friends and family who are
loving and happy and supportive
um i want to be able to live this life
in a way that is
not only about me but it's about other
people about helping them maximize
themselves to help them through the
hardship in a way that shows them that
they actually the one steering the ship
not me not this influencer or this guru
it's actually them getting through the
hard stuff and we use these kind of you
know
these lines to toe ourselves at times
and then i believe life wants for me to
stay on this path to stay grounded to
stay communicative to stay deeply
embedded in both culture of what's
happening especially here in the u.s but
also in the youth that's up and coming
and facing
incredible challenges but also has
amazing resources at their fingertips so
it's this delicate balance of
basically seeing the best in humans and
then helping them see that best of
themself
so that they can persevere
and and pivot and reinvent
that makes a lot of sense now you've
gotten a lot of wisdom in your life
whether from your dad or your coaches or
whoever
what is for somebody that's in a
position where they're lost at sea
they're having that moment they don't
know what's next
what piece of wisdom that you've
encountered is the most useful
good timber
does not grow with ease the stronger
when the stronger trees
um
you know douglas malek there's a quote
and and i really yeah hopefully people
can can read this quote but
it
it is
our life to be
surrounded by hardship
not always but you're going to be facing
it and the current state of where you
are at today
is
very difficult to explain to yourself
why you're here how you got here maybe
it was because your own choice
maybe because you've dug yourself into a
hole
maybe it's because of something that
happened that's outside of your control
and you need to surrender to this
outcome at this moment
and not take the result as is but
surrender to it and then accept who you
see in the mirror that's my first
process if you want to change the things
that are happening on the outside you
gotta look inside
and i am far from perfect i have made
tons of mistakes and i continue to make
mistakes and i will continue to make
mistakes
but at least i know now that i can get
off the treadmill
and i can work on this i i am willing to
embrace the inconsistencies and the
self-doubts and the lack thereof and the
weakness that is there with me
it's a part of my human experience
and slowly i can start to chip away at
that and i know that with consistency
it's going to make a change it's not
going to happen overnight it's not going
to be rapid these things take time
behavioral change is really really hard
and we know that and some people are
able to do it very quickly because
they've had enough they quit smoking
they quit drinking whatever it is they
just they're done right i've had enough
that's like that setting expectation
that's at gearing up it's like enough is
enough this is no longer acceptable to
me as the baseline
but why do you have to get to a state
that is so far backed up against the
wall to reach that you don't have to you
can turn this on at any point
so those people who are in this state
where they feel conflicted in chaos and
uncertain i think embracing the fact
that change is here
and this asking you it's begging you
to actually go towards the flame it's
begging you to stand up tall and be
strong
and to know that this will pass in some
shape or form whether you get through it
and it's successful or it simply just
passes
and is faded into a distant memory of
your life experience as one of many
hundreds of chapters in your life
at the current present time it feels
like the pain
is
insurmountable and you're not going to
make it and just like we did in the
olympic training it will pass at some
point and i think recognizing that
zooming out
is a big part of how people can really
motivate themselves but also
actually have the mechanical steps
necessary to okay
i'm here i want to be here i just want
to be normal again i don't want this
pain or whatever i'm feeling and it's
funny how that works right it's
interesting how
we typically only want the most
simplistic of things when we're faced
with severe pain that's either
financially or like
you know maybe you had like like you're
really sick all you want to do is just
breathe naturally that's all you want
you don't care about anything else
i don't want this sport ape you know i
don't want this crypto punk like
all i want is to [ __ ] breathe that's
that's it
that's the most important thing to me
right now so for people who are
struggling
[Music]
this is a part of the process and it's
unexplainable
you are strong enough you can do the
hard stuff you're being thrown out of
the nest and you got to adapt
you can and you will human beings have
been adapting for millions of years in
this planet and here we are
so um just just have confidence in that
you know i think it's it's very very
powerful and this this is so it's just
so important in anything you do school
is important education and knowledge but
this the willpower that exists inside
the human being is
is unexplainable
right and whatever this consciousness is
that allows us to go above and beyond
science is so cool it's so powerful
still trying to figure out what's
actually occurring there
and so just realize that this
this is your
you know your your catalyst for change
for critical
movement towards what you really want
or it can be the world's strongest
prison it's very very small between the
confines of your two years
no doubt well said
where can people find you and get more
of these nuggets of wisdom from somebody
who's been through all of it
oh you can follow me on on all the
social channels you know at apollo ono
1l 1l that's right my dad was very very
particular about setting something there
uh and then you know pick up the book
hardpivot it's it's a very easy read
it's short you'll read it very quickly
it's very simple
and it's going to be one of a series of
kind of
ideation phases around talking about
these topics psychologically and
behavioral change and such nice the book
is great yeah thank you amazing
guys this is somebody who's been through
it done it and was able to encapsulate
the wisdom in a way that's incredibly
useful i think you will love the book i
definitely encourage you to pick it up
and speaking of things that i encourage
you to do if you haven't already be sure
to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care peace
you