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Language: en
once you've arrived the thing that got
you there is now in some ways your worst
enemy and so that's something that i
have always struggled with is like i've
always been the person that just said
yes to everything early on in my career
you know it was like i can do all of it
at the same time i don't care if you
think it's humanly impossible i will
outwork you i will i will make it
possible
so where i want to start with you you
talk a lot about people only write the
book that you couldn't not write it's
got to be something that really compels
you and i love that and i totally agree
sure what drives you i think what what
drives me is is trying to figure out the
things that i wish that i was taught
uh that i wish were part of what you're
supposed to learn in elementary school
at middle school and high school
you know um
philosophy was supposed to be
historically this
they would call it the guide to the good
life
right so it's something we've been
thinking about for a long time but like
where is this guide you know like
no one gave it i read a lot of books in
school there were a lot of you know
things that they made us look at and
nowhere did i ever get this guide and so
i think i'm always sort of searching for
for the answer to that question you know
like how does one live how is one
supposed to live what do you do in the
morning what do you do at night you know
how do you find happiness that you know
the answers to these questions and and
so i'm looking for that personally and
then i think professionally my job is to
then share the answers to those
questions as i as i find them
that's really interesting so especially
now that you're on the bandwagon of
fatherhood yes which i'm very curious to
hear more of your take on that but like
would you ever write like for somebody
in grade school like that manual and i
usually am writing to a younger version
of myself when i'm writing that's one of
the i think you have to as a writer you
have to have some idea who your audience
is like you have to be able to envision
that person and speak to them and so one
of the people that i'm always trying to
speak to is me whether it's five years
ago or 10 years ago or 15 years ago i
don't know if i have
enough insight
into where i was at that age that i feel
like i could really speak to to that
exactly but i do love
really well done uh children's books i
mean like if you've ever had the little
prince there's tons of lessons in there
i think right now i'm i've still got
enough to say to me just a couple years
ago before i can go back in time quite
that far right what how like the smile
that you had on your face i want to make
sure we showed you that when i asked you
about becoming a father yeah how has it
changed the way that you think or
approach life so my son is 13 months so
i don't have
a ton of experience yet
but i would say i'll give you three
three lessons i say so number one
is it becomes much easier to say no to
things because you realize
we seem to have a limitless capacity to
steal time from ourselves right you know
yeah and the stoics talk about this all
the time you know like we would go you
would be uh incensed if one of your
neighbors
encroached onto your physical property
but if one of your neighbors came over
and just talked your ear off for an hour
you would find it
rude to be like get out of here i don't
want to speak with you right do you know
what i mean like so we protect our
physical space much more than we protect
our time even though physical space can
be regained and time can never be
regained and so one of the things that
it's like even i've been married for a
while and i've been with my wife for a
long time i even found that i i was
comfortable stealing time from her and
from our relationship in a way that i'm
not comfortable stealing time from a
child who i've promised as much of my
time as i can to right right so it
becomes easier to say no to in in
essential things that's number one
number two i would say
is
that especially when my son was first
born with sort of learning
that like parenting is just actually
just being there right like just
physically in the space so
almost nothing else in my life would
would be like would sitting in a chair
not doing anything be doing something
right right and so it's it's really
slowed me down in a very good way right
that like my job is to sit here while he
plays around on the floor doing whatever
he wants i don't need to be as purpose
oriented and that's been a really good
lesson for me because i believe why is
that a good lesson because if you think
that action is the end-all be-all you
end up doing action for the sake of
doing action right so i i feel like i
should always be doing and doing and
doing but sometimes you're just supposed
to be and oftentimes just sort of being
there and sitting there and being still
is where really great insights come from
and this is also where happiness comes
from you know it's hard to be happy and
appreciate and feel gratitude when
you're just moving all the time
my therapist said to me one time she's
like you gotta remember it's it's human
being that human doing right and and a
kid is a really great reminder of the
the the the being part because they're
so
always in the present moment right
and then i think the last lesson is just
sort of
watching someone experience sort of
just complete joy and again presentness
um is also a reminder
that like things don't need to be as i'm
a very intense person
and although that intensity is
responsible for a lot of my success it's
also responsible for my unpleasant
moments right it's responsible for
anguish that i feel or insecurity that i
feel and that the need to be busy all
the time and so i think just watching
you know the simple pleasures that he
can enjoy
i think lets me feel a bit more
gratitude and and appreciation and then
lets me focus on what's really essential
all right well now let's ask a really
interesting question at least i'm deeply
fascinated by this so now let's imagine
you wake up tomorrow and you don't have
kids what of those things would actually
carry forward as transformative elements
for you i would say in a way there i
would carry forward all of them
but having this having this person this
living thing that you're responsible for
um
keeps those lessons top of mind because
there's real consequences for it right
it's a reminder that you can't do
everything all at once and you do have
to prioritize there's someone who will
be upset who will be hurt who will
suffer for this
rather than you just deferring those
costs into the future which is what i
did before i had a son and and what i
think most people allow themselves to do
all the time you know we know
objectively that we're going to die we
don't have unlimited amounts of time but
we still spend it as if we have
unlimited amounts of time because the
consequences are so deferred into the
future
that we can get away with it i also
intellectually knew all those three
things that i told you before but it's
been good it's been the hardest thing
that i've ever done and and i think it's
good to challenge yourself that way all
right so abstract it from kids for a
second okay you're you're you're a very
methodical thinker so what is the matrix
by which you make a decision for how to
spend your time or even what to strive
towards look i struggled with the time
thing before i had a kid so i'm all
my instinct is i heard a great line from
austin cleon and i think he got it from
somewhere else he was saying you know
that the job of or the mindset of an
entrepreneur or a creative person is
that you basically say yes to everything
until you can get to a position where
you can say no
but it's really hard
to know that you've gotten to that
position right especially because you
work yourself up into a state i'll give
you another actually analogy a friend of
mine his name is dr jonathan fader he's
a sports psychologist he works with the
new york giants and the new york mets
and he was saying that in baseball uh
particularly players from like the
dominican republic they have this saying
they said you don't walk off the island
so basically the only way you can get
out of poverty or out of this place is
by swinging right you can only hit your
way off the island right and so on the
one hand what that does is it creates
really aggressive players they swing at
every pitch they can but then as soon as
you make it in the major leagues it's
all about bat discipline right you can't
swing at every pitch because the pitches
are better uh because if you miss it
causes problems for your team and so
it's this balance right once you've
arrived the thing that got you there is
now in some ways your worst enemy and so
that's something that i have always
struggled with is like i've always been
the person that just said yes to
everything early on in my career you
know it was like i can do all of it at
the same time i don't care if you think
it's humanly impossible i will outwork
you i will i will make it possible and
so there was a time where
i don't think i ever ended one of the
opportunities that i had so i was just
adding them on top and on top and
i never hit a wall like i just never hit
it and so always saying yes always
saying yes that became who i was
and now as i've as i've achieved a
certain level of success and what i've
done has gotten harder and harder now
it's all about protecting the space that
i need to do that work i think just the
idea of needing to make those hard
choices knowing what's important what's
not important what i'm trying to
accomplish
not only have i struggled with that
already in my life but then having a kid
makes the stakes of that higher but then
it's also just a learning experience
hello my friend you know that i believe
success requires you to see failure as
the ultimate learning tool success
requires you to be disciplined and
gritty and to never ever quit on your
dreams i say all of that because one
thing is certain the road to achieving
your goal is not smooth or linear i wish
it was but it's not it's going to be
bumpy sometimes scary some days you'll
take two steps forward and slide 10
steps back and that's why success also
requires you to know how to pull
yourself out of a rut and get unstuck
fast life is short you can't be messing
around with your goals you've got to
make progress every single day so i've
pulled a class from impact theory
university called how to get unstuck
which you can watch for free with the
link on your screen or by clicking below
when you join me for that free preview
of that workshop from impact theory
university i'm going to teach you my
strategy
for how to
understand exactly where you need to be
going how to identify the obstacle
that's blocking you and the best way to
make the most progress towards that goal
and keep your momentum right click that
link and let's get to work all right
i'll see you on the inside
there's a concept in perennial cellar
which
truly haunts me okay and is it's clearly
the sign of the thing that i struggle
with along these lines which was nothing
is destroyed more great artists than the
thought that they can do two mutually
exclusive things at the same time yes i
butchered the
right you get the idea and you've said
that of your consulting business you
feel like all you do is untangle
people's like
mess of things that are often
conflicting that they want to do what
what is it about that problem and how do
you help people through it well i think
what i what i'm saying is that
oftentimes people go okay here's really
what i want to do and this is what i'm
trying to accomplish
and then
they see all these other things that
other people are doing and then they
they kind of see that as like a grab bag
and they're like i want a little of this
and a little of this and a little of
this and i want it all at the same time
that's not really possible you know you
can't play five sports at the same time
you gotta pick one you gotta specialize
maybe you can do two but you probably
can't do five right you can't be a
classical musician
and a rock star you know and this and
this all at the same time so it's about
sort of picking your lane and then
knowing that
some
some goals are mutually exclusive the
question i ask clients the most what
does success look like
for you on this project and i get them
to really describe it to me and let's
say there's more than one thing in there
i go now if you could only pick one of
those things and the other ones didn't
happen which one would you pick and i'm
trying to get them to sift through some
of that conflict so we can really hone
in on what we're trying to do and
oftentimes like where ego comes in is
like we've got the things that impress
other people and then the real
meaningful impact that we're trying to
have and oftentimes i'm not saying that
the the status things aren't nice and
they're not they're not impressive and
they're not cool but we've got to make
sure that they're not coming at the
expense of those other things right i
love that notion of you know asking
yourself what success looks like for you
and having that clarity and how
important is that clarity do you think
for people that want to be successful
like how much of this is you start with
a goal that is abundantly clear and then
you create a path i think one of the
things that has really helped me make
some of the decisions we were talking
about earlier
is what is like an ideal day of your
life look like like maybe not right now
but like what do you want a day in your
life to look like and so if if that day
is like look i'm the kind of person i
love going to an office i love lots of
responsibility i love lots of pressure i
thrive in that environment well then
great you know that that's where you
want to know for me when i think about
like the high-powered executive who's
who's
who an entire company is resting and
falling on
i think how does that person have time
to do any creative long-term thinking i
don't think that they do and so i had to
realize that oh these two paths because
i was on two paths i was a writer and a
researcher and then also i had i was at
a big company that they were mutually
exclusive that one was coming at the
cost of the other and i tried to do both
for a long time i at one point i
stupidly uh doubled down on the one that
i didn't want and i realized it occurred
to me one day i was i was actually in
l.a um there was some chaos and american
apparel and so i've gotten called back
in they were paying me great money and i
it was like you know 9 00 a.m i just
gone for a run i'm sitting down i was
writing and i looked at my watch and i
was like oh i have to be at the office
like if i'm not at the office like
people are going to be mad they're going
to wonder what they're picking
and that was like
but my dream is not going into an office
the most important thing for me is to
have the freedom to go where my day
takes me especially creatively i'm on a
path that's taking me further away from
what i want my ideal day to look like
that's not success you know and so
and tim ferriss has talked about this is
you know some people it's like my um
dream life is being on a beach in bali
well what does that actually cost could
you have that now do you have to have a
life that you don't like so that at the
end of it potentially you're lucky
enough to go there or could you find a
way to get that now i'm trying to think
about this on a regular basis is my life
resembling what those days are supposed
to look like and if i have too many days
in a row
that don't resemble what i want my day
to look like i go
i'm
i'm i'm having the opposite of success
you know what i mean what do you do very
tactically in that moment is it
journaling what does that look like so i
i do journal uh every morning and every
night so part of my journaling is just
like a detailing of events like not for
history but just so
i'm forced to recount what happened and
actually think about it you know the
stokes would say prepare for the day
ahead and then you're supposed to
reflect on the day that just passed and
so that sort of process of preparing in
the morning and reviewing the evening
allows me to never get too far from
where i want to be you know what i mean
like i'm never gonna i'm never gonna
wake up
five years from now hopefully five years
from now and go this is just really not
the life that i wanted because i'm i'm
doing a regular series of check-ins
so going back to what you said about you
know for a brief moment i actually
doubled down on the thing that i didn't
want yeah which i totally get and
understand in a way that i can't even
convey to you
why do you think people have a hard time
identifying what they really want
and like what can people do to not find
themselves in that situation this is a
very first world problem but i would say
one of the hardest things to do
in the world is to turn down money right
so like i was in a conference room and
someone said you know look we need you
to come back like we know you have this
writing thing this is when you're
quitting yeah or i'd already basically
left i was i was like sort of remote and
and
and didn't have a day-to-day role and
they said look we need you to come back
you know this is going to be a tough you
know series of months but i think you
can make a contribution we need you to
come back and i said well look you know
i got all this stuff and they they said
well what would it cost to get you to
come back and i threw out what i thought
was a high number and they said done
and so
in that moment i was like well that's a
lot of money that would it would be
irresponsible to say no to this right
and so i was telling myself one that i
could do it all at the same time and
then two that like you know and i wanted
this money like you know and and it
would it would seem dumb to say no to it
i deal with lots of successful like
entrepreneurs and athletes and one of
the things they're always talking
they're like oh i just i love books i
love writing i would love to be able to
do that and so one of the things that
struck me in that period where i was
unhappy was it was like i get to do this
thing that other people tell me they
wish they could do and here i am taking
a bunch of money to do the thing that
they say they don't like doing you know
this is this doesn't make any sense at
all and so i had to back myself out of
that situation i you know i left some
money on the table as a result
and it was it
wasn't a fun experience but it was just
i think in that moment i wasn't thinking
what do i want my life to look like
what's the most important thing to me i
was thinking how many zeros are in this
check right and that
is not a great uh way to make decisions
in your life because what do people do
with their money they buy freedom right
but oftentimes they give up freedom to
get
money and so that it was like oh i could
just skip those steps and stay where i
am and be very happy
god it's so interesting man so
yes i think that that's a an eternal
thing that people do with their their
work they're giving up their freedom in
order to buy some sort of future freedom
which may or may not overcome by the way
right um because what it what if you do
that and then you get hit by a bus
yeah or the money never comes sure which
is maybe even more likely right right
it's just always slipping into the
future the eternal future
so my question is though and there's
there's two things really so one how did
you deal with whatever the reverse of
buyer's remorse is right where you give
the money back and then that next time
that
you
want to do something and realize i can't
because i don't have the money but oh if
i just stuck it out
and then yeah we'll start there it's not
like uh i was choosing between you know
the poor house and you know paying for
my groceries or something right like
this was this was extra one of the
pivotal conversations in my life was
with tim ferriss when i was starting my
company and he said you know ryan what
do you do with your money
and um i was like what do you mean he's
like what do you what do you spend your
money on
and i was like nothing like i just
like i just put it in a bank account and
then i try to manage it responsibly i
live pretty reasonably and and uh i i
try to save my money and whatever so
he's like okay so
why are you going out and trying to get
more and more if you don't
need it and and that was really helpful
to me so now uh
when i'm thinking about clients uh like
what my test is at brass check is we go
like okay is this work we're going to be
proud of or is this giving us money that
we need to do something we will be proud
of that test is really really important
a lot of times people are saying yes to
money not because hey if i do this then
i can pour it into the movie project
that everything depends on it's like i
need this so i can lease a nicer car
right
one one concept i'm assuming it comes
from stoke philosophy and i can't
remember if i read it in perennial
cellar or egos the enemy or both perhaps
but what would a person more humble than
me learn from this moment that's
something i think is incredibly powerful
walk people through what that means what
you're trying to get to
and what the result is of approaching
things like that well i think there's
this cool exercise uh from adam smith
who was the economist uh he he wrote the
wealth of nations but he also wrote a
book called the theory of moral
sentiments which is this sort of
brilliant book about philosophy and kind
of like why we do the right thing
basically and one of the things he he
was talking about is he was like you
should judge
all your
actions he should you should subject it
he said to the indifferent spectator
test which is like what if there was a
totally impartial person who you didn't
know was just standing there watching
you
what would they think of this you know
how would they judge what's happening
and that's a way to sort of step out
from your own logic your own impulses
your own natural feelings and sort of
judge you know if you're not religious
you're not like what would jesus do
you're like what would some random guy
think of this and if it doesn't pass his
test it's probably not a good thing to
do right and so i think that's that's
the test i go is like what would a
person who isn't so caught up in this
who whose identity isn't on the line how
would they react to this rude remark or
how would they react to this lowball
offer they would not be nearly so caught
up in it it wouldn't threaten them the
way that i'm feeling that right now so
i'm going to borrow a little bit of
their objectivity and i'm going to try
to i'm going to incorporate it into my
reaction here in the way that therapy is
about questioning our thoughts
philosophy is giving us the tools to in
the heat of the moment you know viktor
frankl would talk about how you know
there's this between stimulus and
response there's like a moment and
that's where we get to choose who we're
going to be and i think philosophy is
about that moment really how often do
you think about that moment for you very
specifically like do you have a codified
set of so i think of my mind as a
pachenko ball
machine okay what those look like right
you dropped the ball on the top it
bounced around over a lot of things and
those things that it's bouncing on is my
um the code that i live by right my
belief system yeah so i take something
negative
or you know there's nothing good or bad
but i think he makes it so sure so it's
like and i put it through all of that so
that i get a resulting outcome that is
useful yeah that's how i think of it do
you spend a lot of time building
something like that yeah yeah you know
we're not robots so we can't like okay
i'm not gonna react this is like an
intuitive almost an unconscious process
right and and so you're sort of you're
trying to
you're trying to put all this
information in there you're trying to to
to sort of put in those those little
points that the thing is bouncing around
on the way down as a way of sort of
slowing down the process i think most
people your average person who doesn't
work on themselves who's not reading who
doesn't care about any of this they're
just there
the time between stimulus and responses
like nothing right and the the more you
work on it the more you practice the
more you're able to question
your own thoughts it's all about slowing
it down what does that practice process
look like like how do you practice that
that's a good question i mean it it'd be
like how do they practice uh swinging a
bat in baseball i mean they just swing
it a lot and
they they watch film of themselves so
they're stepping back and evaluating
things after they happen they're looking
for cues they're they've got other
people around them who are giving them
feedback i think it's about a sort of
cultivating an awareness and a process
of continual reflection on the data that
your life is creating all the time do
you think most people do that though no
of course not that's why it's such a
huge competitive edge to start working
on that do you know what i mean and and
the earlier you start working on it the
sooner you're going to start to see
results but the more those results are
going to compound over time there's
nothing in let's say stoic philosophy
where we're saying you know the idea
that there's no good or bad there's just
the interpretation that we have on
things so i first learned that when i
was 19 years old i'm sitting in my
apartment in college and i read this
book and some person 2000 years ago said
that to me so i that was the first time
i encountered it intellectually a week
later
that would have only a
minuscule impact on my life
but
every every time i've thought about it
every time i've studied it every time
i've tried to reflect on how in
retrospect i could have done that better
i've accumulated
slightly more now more knowledge more
appreciation more
set more sense of that the truth of that
and and then i've gotten better and
better at it i might be
only 20 better at it now but i'm hoping
that at 70 uh that that return will
compound not unlike my retirement
savings right like you're
thinking about this and working on it
and writing about it and talking to
other people about it and and trying to
evaluate your own behavior and then it's
just this process of of reflection and
minuscule improvement as you go you're
not trying to get to perfection right
now you're just trying to get a little
bit better than you were yesterday or an
hour ago do you read ray dalio's
principles i have not read it but i've
heard amazing things about it right i
know his bro i know i know a bunch of
the principles but his practice is
similar right he's like we're recording
all our meetings we're getting feedback
from people in the office about how
you're doing one of my favorite stories
about that pete carroll the coach of the
seattle seahawks one of the best coaches
in the nfl he was talking about how you
know coaches are constantly filming
their players and they're forcing the
players to break uh to break down game
film they're ruthless like it's like you
could have a great game and then the
next day you're you're back in the
practice facility and you know the
receiver's coach is telling you
what a horrible game you had and all the
opportunities that you've learned and so
uh obviously that's that's what makes
these guys so great and coach carroll
was saying like i realized i don't do
that to the coaches like the coaches
never experienced that and so he started
filming his coaches and he would he
would force them at the beginning of the
season to look back at all the times
that they blew it right that they lost
their temper or that they missed
something and and so i try to do that in
my own life i mean one of the ways that
i you know authors aren't supposed to
read their own reviews for instance one
of the reasons that i read
most of the amazon reviews let's say on
my books is that i want to get feedback
from people so i'm not reading them to
feel like i'm awesome or to
sort of whip myself but i want to see
what people are responding to and i want
to get unsolicited feedback on the
writing i have a filter that i put that
information through but i'm looking for
as much feedback as i can about the
things that i do
so that i can incorporate that data and
get better
what is up my friends i have huge news
for you about one of the most exciting
and important projects i've ever worked
on in my life
as you guys know it is my mission to
help teach people about how to build a
mindset and the skills that they're
going to need to live an extraordinary
life and over the last few months i've
been working hard behind the scenes to
create a brand new tool that will help
you do exactly that it's called project
kaizen and i'm proud to announce that
i'll be bringing it to the world later
this year project kaizen is a web 3
based game like experience that is a
story based world that's going to allow
you to get inside build an avatar that
is aspirational of who you want to
become and then take the path of the
warrior seeking continuous improvement
inside of a story world and game
experience alright my friend i cannot
tell you how excited i am about this
amazing new project which i think ushers
in a whole new form of entertainment and
i want to meet you inside of project
kaizen and help you have fun with these
ideas of always getting better right
click the link and join me in discord
and until then my friends be legendary
take care peace
so th this is like my life's obsession
this moment right here so
one i want to know what that filter is
and we'll get to that in a second but
so you're you're incredibly successful
right you've got your own company it's
doing well working with the biggest
companies ever you're a multiple time
best-selling author and you have
perennial sellers in the mix as well
which is sell sell sell sell
why the hell do you subject yourself to
the self-flagellation of an amazon
review like what what is that about well
it's not self-flagellation so you have
to make that distinction how do you
prime yourself mentally for it not to
become self-flagellation i can't change
what happened so i'm looking for this
feedback for tips and information that
can help me improve
so that that person who let's say they
didn't like what i did
so that i can not let that happen again
they'd say you know ryan uh i really
like this book but i can't let my son
read it because he uses the f word a lot
and so it's like okay so some people
don't like cursing and then i notice as
i went through the the positive reviews
no one ever said i really like how ryan
curses a lot so this was a this wasn't
something that was important to me right
and here it was having a negative impact
on some of the readers and then let's
say a marginal to no impact no positive
impact to the readers who were enjoying
it so to me that's a pretty easy data
point to go like okay
in some cases
i think i need to drop an f-bomb here to
catch people's attention right and i can
see that when i talk if the audience is
you know sort of drifting a little bit i
can call i can use it you know um but
there's no reason for me to do this in
my and so in in the daily stoke there
the there's no curse words and that was
an improvement i think that made the
book better and i got that by going
through this process that makes a lot of
sense now now talk to me you said you
have like an installed filter that you
use to know what to listen to and what
not to listen to yeah look at the
feedback you're getting and then
remember what you were trying to do for
instance i'll get a criticism from let's
call them stoic fundamentalists right
people are really sort of nerds about
philosophy
who will say you know ryan um
you know ryan doesn't add anything new
he's just taking stoic principles and
illustrating them with stories right so
that'll be one criticism or they'll so
they'll say you should read the
originals don't read ryan's book or
other people will say
um you know ryan is taking these
timeless virtuous principles and then
illustrating them with famous successful
people and you know that sort of
cheapens it or you know that's that's uh
that's not what stoicism is about let's
say well in both cases i was explicitly
trying to do the thing they were
criticizing me for right so i say in the
book if you're really interested in
stoicism go read the ancient stoic text
i cannot do better than them what i was
writing the obstacles the way an ego is
the enemy is for people who don't have
time or interest in ancient philosophy
but are trying to improve their life in
some way so i'm trying to meet them
where they are so when someone says that
i didn't do this thing that i explicitly
wasn't trying to do
my filter is going okay
this person shouldn't have read the book
this wasn't for them i don't need to
take this personally right if you're
trying to be everything for everyone and
you read feedback you're just going to
get more lost because some one person is
going to say this and another person is
going to say that but if you know here's
exactly what i was trying to accomplish
and here's what that success looks like
then you can you can filter this
information and go okay is this person's
advice getting me closer to where i want
to get or further from where i want to
get and that has been really helpful to
me what i love about that and i really
hope people are listening to what you're
saying is
you're doing it with an eye towards
getting better to me there's an element
this is why i brought up um
principles by ray dalio is his thing is
all about like i'm just trying to get to
truth yes and one of the things that i
wish on every human being is to one day
in some way shape or form understand
what it's like to be an entrepreneur in
that if the company does well
fortune can be yours and if it does
poorly you can lose everything sure the
amount of [ __ ] that cuts through is
crazy like it's not even necessarily
that i don't want to have an ego i love
to have a big thriving ego and people
are always saying like how do you stay
humble with the success dude because if
i don't i'm gonna lose everything no the
the reality of how low the margin for
error is is like the ultimate recipe or
sort of shortcut to humility like let's
say we're i'm fighting with um
an editor or someone or even just a
friend who's reading one of my books
about you know the use of this sentence
or this paragraph or this stylistic or
you know something in a book i don't
have the room to be like you don't know
what the [ __ ] you're talking about like
i'm a genius let me do this right
because if i'm wrong i don't feel so
secure in what i do that i feel like i
can afford to let ego make any of those
decisions i have to let truth make those
decisions so you know there's a writing
adage it's like when when someone says
that something's wrong they're almost
always right and i think this is true in
life when someone says there's something
wrong with what you're doing or you know
how you're carrying yourself or what
you're you know a project or a product
they're almost always right when they
explain why it's wrong or how to fix it
they're almost always wrong so it's like
when someone's saying like i don't like
chapter six they're right they don't
like chapter six right when they say
you should get rid of chapter six or you
should you know
make chapter six the opposite of what it
is or get rid of this story they're
probably wrong but you should try to
figure out why chapter six isn't working
and improve it and make sure that it's
aligned with your vision because maybe
it's not or if it's perfectly aligned
with your vision then you have to make
the tough call and go look
i'm not going to please this person all
right so now the million dollar question
how the hell do you know the difference
first off you should just go like
like i'll give you an example i i've
talked about this before too but like
one of the dangers of entrepreneurship
is or making anything is that like
people around you are going to be like
that's not a good idea don't do it and
then you don't listen and you do it and
you end up being right when you've kind
of just learned a very dangerous lesson
which is like just disregard what other
people say so one of the reasons you
tend to see people on the way up take a
company like uber they're just like
blowing past conventional wisdom
business best practices they're doing it
their way over and over and over again
and they're going up and up and up and
that's creating a feedback loop where
it's like
the rules don't matter we do it our way
we do it our way and they're being
rewarded for it over and over again and
then at some point they cross a line
and now all of a sudden they started to
do things that are illegal that are
unethical that their customers aren't
going to like but there's a delay
between doing that and being held
responsible for that and that's where
the sort of catastrophic explosion and
consequences inevitably come in and so
whenever you feel yourself going i'm
just gonna blow past what everyone's
saying they're all idiots you know they
don't know that's a really bad sign that
you're probably doing something out of
ego so i think that certainty is
something i'm always
uh nervous about like
so it's become sort of cliche in
entrepreneur circles and and you've
probably read this article you know the
idea of like it's it's hell yes or hell
no right like you there you're either a
thousand percent on it or you say no but
all the difficult decisions i've ever
made in my life were like
you know 51.49
so so it's like in some ways i'm
actually really skeptical i think that
there's a great point in that article
which is like just don't do you know
don't do stuff just because you're
supposed to but it should be tough and
if it feels easy then i want to question
that i guess is one of my answers and
then look nobody said writing a book or
being a leader or you know shepherding
some vision and no one said it was going
to be easy and clear and you were going
to know these are things that are going
to keep you up at night and that you've
got to roll the dice on to a certain
degree and so you just do it and then if
you're wrong you learn and you do it
better next time
how do you keep your emotions out of the
way like i i have a very simple formula
which is the thing that i want in this
world i want so desperately that and
it's not an ego thing so it's very i
have an ego for sure but it's very easy
for me to set that aside because it's
not the thing that i want most okay and
so in those times of like emotionally i
want to do this yeah but then i just
check it against oh does it actually
help me get where i want to go no okay
cool then i'm going to go after that
what mechanism do you have for dealing
with that well one i think one of the
best ways is just time right uh abraham
lincoln famously whenever he was like
really mad at a subordinate like you
know one of the generals in the civil
war he would write them like just a
really nasty letter like he would just
this is what you're doing wrong this is
you know he would write everything that
he wanted to say
and then he'd put that letter in an
envelope and then put it in his drawer
and then wait you know a day or a week
and then most of the time you wouldn't
send it and so one of the things i try
to do is i go like
do i really need to respond to this
right now because that tends to be where
that emotion the emotions are typically
immediate right like i'd find even the
things that i'm really upset about i'm
most upset about them when i first find
out about them if i give it a weekend or
if i sleep on it i'm much less upset
about them and i'm going to be more
rational and i'm going to be more
responsible with how i reply so i just
want to give it some time i mean one of
the tests that i have
i do this with emails a lot like if i'm
fighting or i'm arguing with someone
i'll go like what if i just pretend i
didn't get their response like i'm not
even gonna read it like i know like i
just said i just said my piece and then
they sent me a response back like five
minutes later i'm just not gonna i'm
just gonna delete it right
and then i'll let them have to resend it
to me or just let the issue drop right
so i'm kind of
just sticking my head in the sand but
i'm i'm really just creating space for
there to be less
because they're not going to resend the
exact same thing they're going to hey we
need to talk about that thing and go oh
what was it and then we'll you know
we'll have a little bit more reasonable
of a dialogue when i feel that impulse
is like i gotta deal with this right now
that's emotion and that's probably not
gonna get the best solution out of
things what are things that wind you up
to use a nice british phrase that get me
pissed off yeah you know when people
mess with my stuff
so like if i like writing is about what
i'm trying to accomplish right and so
i did it the way i wanted it to be done
and i'll get really upset like if
something comes back to me
even if it's small and like a change is
made without just like i'm very open to
taking criticism and feedback
but like i caught something let's say
with a copy editor recently on a book i
was working on where like they
reworked something without they just
assumed i would be okay with it and they
reworked it and i caught it and that was
very upsetting to me right because if i
hadn't caught it something that i didn't
sign off on could have gone out to the
my readers but
you know uh i was much more upset about
it at three o'clock on a tuesday than i
was
the following thursday
when i finally got to the bottom of what
happened and i worked through it it's
just never that great to act out okay
actually i'll give you something because
i think about this question a lot too
and so i've asked some of the basketball
coaches that i've that i've worked with
or have read my book i was like
uh i was like do you ever get like a
technical on purpose
because like a coach you know the worst
thing a coach could do is get so mad
about something that they give the team
the opposing team an extra point right
so obviously you don't want to get a
technical on accident like because
you're just ripped around by your
emotions but sometimes
you should get upset to send a message
to your team to send a message to the
refs you know to get the crowd going
whatever it is and so i'm i was like
that i'm into i'm interested if i'm
going to use my emotions i want to be
calm internally but projecting the
emotional response that's going to be
effective in that situation
but
i don't want to be jerked around by
those emotions
unconsciously dude that's advanced class
[ __ ] yeah so this is something i don't
often talk to people about but is is
absolutely necessary i think to
certainly be running a company is a
you've got to be able to control your
emotions so that you're not getting
whipped around as you said but b
you have to understand that
all of this even emotions expressed
suppressed facial expressions all of it
is a performance meant to convey
something yes and once you understand
that you can leverage outrage intensity
anger whatever the case may be as a tool
yes to move somebody down the road then
you can really start to become effective
well think about this way if you yell at
your people every time something is
wrong
they'll just be like oh tom's a yeller
and if i just
don't mind being yelled at i'd get away
with anything right you know what i mean
that's a very that happens in companies
a lot it's like you have to be calculate
in some ways calculating and controlled
and choose what you're going to get
upset about otherwise
the people that you're projecting that
to
aren't going to be able to discern a
minor mistake from a catastrophic
mistake it's very important that you're
not the the boy who cried wolf you know
the one who's who's uh
screaming about inconsequential matters
and then when someone messes something
up when they cross that red line they're
not going to take it seriously because
you're like look you yelled at me
yesterday because the coffee was cold
and you know here you messed up
something on the calendar or whatever it
is you've got it you've got to be able
to use the those are those emotions how
you articulate what you're feeling or
your you know
how you're going to act in a meeting or
how you're going to you know present a
plan that's a communication tool and
you've got to be able to use that you
can't just be oh i'm not feeling it so
i'm down today or i'm in a shitty mood
so i'm going to be yelling today that's
not a good way to make those tough
decisions i think of
ego's the enemy and perennial sellers
somewhat as compendiums to each other
you feel this okay
um
what and i guess if you don't i'll give
you my reasons for that if you want to
create something great yeah you need to
get your ego out of the way right so
that's sort of the moral of the story
for me right so the perennial seller
addresses how to actually tactically
create something that's great but you
can still feel the egos the enemy
elements in it where it's like
you're ultimately the one that's gonna
stop you or propel you forward yes so
taking that concept of if you want to
create something great this is how you
get out of your own way
what are like the three or four things
that people need to do think believe
whatever
in order to achieve greatness well so
number one like what are you actually
trying to do because you can't do 15
things at the same time so like here's
what i'm making that's the main like do
you actually know right because
sometimes people are trying to do
too much at one time and then who is
this for because it can't be for you you
know like obviously every thing that you
work on should be fulfilling and
exciting and interesting to you but
you're not
the customer of your product by
definition right you can't buy it from
yourself so like
how is this going to provide value for
the audience that's like the most
important thing and that has to be the
ruthless test that you
check everything you're doing against
number three is like who are the people
that are helping you check whether
you're doing that or not right and so i
think you need to have that test even if
you're self-funding an entrepreneurial
venture like
the fact that you know you were
successful in the past so you don't have
to get venture capital on your next
project that's great but it's also a
potential disadvantage because now you
don't have this external objective
feedback telling you where you can
improve where you can fall short so that
means you need to work extra hard to
cultivate those people whether it's a
board of directors whether it's trusted
friends whether it's a focus group like
who is interacting with this thing and
giving you feedback i think that's
really important and then i would say
the fourth and the most important one
and this is where ego i think kills a
lot of projects is people think like if
i build it they will come right if i
just make something so good it will
automatically be successful or they go
i'm a maker like i shouldn't have to
also be a marketer and and to me
the creative process the entrepreneurial
process is sort of two consecutive
marathons so you run this marathon you
make a book
you know you have a movie in the can you
have a prototype of an invention
whatever it is
you you know you stagger across the
finish line you're like i did it and
like you know the race proctor they grab
you and you think they're taking you to
the metal stand they're like you know
you did it you won
but really they're just like taking you
through a shoot to the starting line of
the second marathon which is now
how the hell do we get this into
people's hands right and so with every
book it's like the first marathon is
making it for me and then the second
marathon is like
all right now i have to be as creative i
have to work as hard i have to throw as
much energy
into selling this thing to everyone that
it's potentially for as humanly possible
and so
i tend to find that creatives are either
or with books or movies or whatever i'm
working on is either they're only
interested in the marketing marathon
because they're great sales people and
they think like oh i'll just slap
something together or they're so
creative and they so love that process
that they want to
they want to skip the second marathon
what does success look like for you so
we started with that sure you know that
you have to have that clarity like in in
life what is success and for me success
is a couple things i think it's to have
the
creative freedom to make the things that
i feel
compelled to make and produce having the
sort of lifestyle and personal freedom
to set up my life how i how i want it to
be right so to not be oh i've got to go
to cleveland tomorrow for this thing
that i don't want to go like i do i want
to have that freedom and then um i think
success is also
getting better like i
i love books i love writing i've
dedicated my life to this craft and i
want to be like one of the best people
to do it and so
success is am i moving up in my
abilities like is every book regardless
of sales is it better than the one that
came before that's it that's also one of
my definitions of success all right and
before i ask my last question where can
these guys find you at ryan holiday on
pretty much every social platform and
then my website's ryanholiday.net and
then the books are everywhere books are
sold nice yeah all right so final
question okay that's the impact that you
want to have on the world
this is part of my definition of success
obviously is is to have impact i think
my impact is i want to write things and
come up with ideas and communicate sort
of stories and connections from history
that
give people
the
that answer that question that we
started with talking about which is like
how do you live you know what how do you
get to the good life i'm trying to make
the things that i wish that were there
for me
but that if they weren't there for me i
can make them for other people so like
when someone says you know like this
book changed my life or when someone
says i don't read but i read your book
that's the kind of impact so i'm i'm
trying to have impact with people that i
feel like are maybe not well served by
the existing things in the in the market
so i'm trying to
you know i'm trying to make
books that that that help people with
life you know that that's a that's a an
easy thing to say it's a hard thing to
do but i feel like i'm chipping away at
it
the front that people present
the way they look the way they talk to
us their words
we sort of take at face value
and although we might think or we might
know from reading a book or whatever
that you can't always trust appearances
is kind of a cliche we can't control
ourselves
so it makes