Kind: captions
Language: en
for the people that are leaving the
great resignation i would say first
start with like what you're curious
about like what do you find yourself
searching on google at like two in the
morning or like what forums or rabbit
holes do you go down where you want to
learn more about that
oftentimes we brush off our curiosities
is just something like weird or
something different about us but every
time i've been curious about something
enough to like dive into it and be a
student of it i found like gifts inside
of that
jenna kutcher welcome to the show oh
thank you i
drew has been listening to your show and
texting me photos and i listen too but
he is like just pouring through the
archives and i am just really honored to
be here super cool well i'm excited to
have you the book how are you really was
amazing thank you and what i want to
know is how do you if somebody comes to
you and this is a question i get asked
all the time they're feeling lost
not sure where to go with their life
what can they start doing right now to
make sure that they get the
self-awareness that they need to not
waste another year or
god forbid even longer
i really think that our human race is
struggling to be quiet with ourselves
we're constantly distracted and it's
really easy for me as a parent to see
kids get distracted nowadays it's like
they don't know how to be bored anymore
but it's funny because you know kids
have screens in front of them and then
they don't know how to play they don't
know how to be creative anymore but
adults are doing the same thing
and so i think that so many people when
they're feeling that like lost or that
that kind of unnerved edge that i think
a lot of us are like where am i going
where am i at it's because we haven't
gotten quiet with ourselves to actually
face the answers
and when i think about the question how
are you really there's a big difference
there between just like how are you good
great better i think all of us are
living in that place a lot
but it's like when you're in a
conversation and someone kind of leans
in and you feel safe how are you really
and you kind of let your guard down
we're afraid to do that with ourselves
so the first thing i would tell people
to do is like check in with yourself
like really check in with yourself if
you need to schedule it on your calendar
just like you schedule a dentist
appointment or a doctor's appointment
schedule in some time to like get quiet
with yourself and not just ask a
question but be ready to listen to the
answers
okay so how you liken it to the dentist
or the doctor which for me i absolutely
hate absolutely and i imagine a lot of
people have the same feeling so
one how do we get the courage to do
that are there tools for dealing with
what you
feel coming back that make that an
easier thing to do yeah
you know
i think that courage is a great word to
describe that because
a lot of us we go on to autopilot and
autopilot just becomes our lives like we
look at like what are we doing have you
ever finished a day where you're like i
worked so freaking hard and i have no
idea what i got done
yes i hate that and i have a
neurodivergent brain so i feel like a
lot of times i'm like all over the place
and i am doing that intentionally
because i'm afraid to get quiet so if
somebody hates or needs that courage i
think the first thing you need to do is
learn how to be quiet it's like i was
talking to our friend jamie kern lima
she's coming out of her book launch she
has been running just running running
running and i was like jamie when's the
last time you rested and she's like i
have no i don't know i don't know how to
rest i don't rest i i operate at this
higher level this is what i do and i
said it's almost like you need to do a
couch to 5k but in reverse
like we need an app that tells us today
you are going to get quiet with yourself
for one minute
and tomorrow it's two minutes
and it's like we have to build that
muscle for me rest takes just as much if
not more work
than running full steam ahead now is
there a difference between resting and
being quiet with yourself
yes and no i think that we need the
margin of rest like rest offers us the
margin
to be able to silence all of the to-do
lists and the things and and the
efficiency
and then when we have that margin then
we can get to the bottom of things
and so it's like the quieting of the
mind it's like meditation i used to say
i can't meditate my brain is too busy i
didn't realize that meditation wasn't
silencing your brain it was just
starting to pay attention to your
thoughts right there's a big difference
there
i try
and i realized and welcomed in that like
the distractions are the meditation it's
just coming back home coming back home
coming back home just guiding yourself
back and i think that we don't do that
enough in our lives when it's like
checking in with ourselves we get
distracted and let the distractions take
over instead of guiding ourselves back
so it's like if we can learn how to get
quiet with ourselves and almost treat it
like we're training for a marathon of
like today i'm going to just do a minute
tomorrow i'm going to do two minutes
then we're starting to create that
rhythm that gives us a space to be quiet
and in that quietness is when we can
actually get to the bottom of it all
right so what does that minute look like
mechanistically am i sitting comfortably
am i doing whatever the heck you want i
think so for me like yesterday i was in
a cab
driving in la and i'm not familiar with
this area i don't know it i don't feel
necessarily comfortable here i'm from
minnesota like small town so like
traffic for us is like when the stop
light is red we're like frustrated
and so i was sitting there and i was
kind of feeling like a little anxious
and unease and i looked out the window
and i said like what is something i can
see right now what is something i can
smell right now what am i feeling right
now and like just coming back home i
mean it's a practice a lot of people do
when anxiety rises up where it's like
started listing like where am i and am i
safe and am i good
but for me it's really just like taking
that deep breath today i was getting my
hair blow-dried i was on my phone kind
of doing all these things i was like
be here right now
you don't have to be efficient all the
time
you don't have to be doing something or
creating something and so for me it can
look anywhere but it's like taking that
deep breath realizing i haven't been
breathing deep enough and then relaxing
into that
all right so one i want to talk about
efficiency really fast yeah super
self-indulgent way yeah and i want to
get back to like how people then listen
what are they hearing how do they
construct it but so it sounds like you
and i struggle with the same thing so i
prize efficiency so much
that i i remember i used to walk towards
my car yeah i would try to make it such
that i got my hand in my pocket and hit
the unlock just in time to be able to
open the door so there was no fumbling
hesitation nothing and if i didn't do
everything perfectly like if i missed my
seat buckle and you know with the seat
belt and didn't get it in a second oh my
god exactly now it was fun it wasn't
like a i wasn't in a mental health
crisis yeah there was something fun
about it
but it can become pathological if you're
not careful so as somebody who's been so
richly rewarded for being efficient as
an entrepreneur you are yes what have
you like hooked into to make the rest
relaxation as rewarding
as the efficiency yeah
so i am the exact same way i literally
am so precise at like if i'm gonna bring
laundry up the stairs i'm gonna like
make sure i
fold it just right so i can drop
everything off in once one you know go
at it so i feel the same way but i have
had to learn how to rest so an example i
give in the book
is at the end of yoga there's shavasana
where you lay on the floor
i freaking
hated shavasana just because it leaves
you alone with your thoughts absolutely
and i felt like i needed to do a super
sweaty workout in order to earn the
right to rest
so if i didn't do an intense yoga
workout if i didn't do all the binds and
the headstands and everything
who am i to lay on the floor for five
minutes i didn't earn it that's a broken
thought but it's a thought that a lot of
people hold
that we need to earn the right to rest
that it's not like our birthright and i
think that's kind of scary because i
think we're constantly hustling and i
was actually really excited for my
conversation with you because
you and i are very similar in a lot of
ways but we also think very differently
in a lot of ways and i was like
really excited to kind of break things
down and just have those different
perspectives because you are where you
are because you've worked the way you've
worked
i am where i am because i've rested in
the way that i've rested
and i think it's a beautiful like our
relationship is really unique in that
because we can agree to disagree on
certain things of like what it takes or
how you get to where you're going and
what that path looks like
but at the same point we have to
recognize that our output is one thing
but like at the expense of what and for
me like and i know you guys have dealt
with your own health things like with
lisa and different things like that
where it's like my body is speaking to
me and trying to give me signals that i
have to slow down like the check engine
light is on and when we went through two
miscarriages while trying to grow our
family it was
not just
for me at the time it felt like a
failure but really when i look at it now
in hindsight which hindsight is always
20 20. like my body was literally
telling me like it can't even support
your life right now let alone support
another human's life
and so when i think about shavasana and
laying on the floor and resting i didn't
feel like i deserved rest i was scared
to slow down because i was afraid that
the momentum would leave and that it
would all go away
and i've learned
that in that resting
comes this like trusting of like what
has gotten me to here will carry me
forward and i have all those tools and
my tool kit ready to be pulled out but
they don't need to be all out right now
does that make sense oh yes
okay so
i love the idea of don't let yourself be
trapped into thinking that you have to
earn that rest and that's really
important i think a lot of the world
that may not be their struggle yeah
their struggle may be the exact opposite
but yes i think that's really important
for people to hear but now that we're
quiet so we're not fighting ourselves
we're taking our rest we're in savasana
we're you know laid out and we're really
gonna make use of it
something begins to happen yeah which is
our mind starts racing yes and the what
i loved about how are you really is you
can even fool yourself and give yourself
that i'm fine it's all good everything's
okay
and then people end up either
like accepting a path that is not ideal
for what they want to do it's not
bringing them the joy that they want to
experience
or it's
just
complete and utter misery
so
what i want to know is as the the mind
begins to spin
how do you make that useful how do you
either get it quiet enough to hear
intuition yeah or uh to begin to build a
plan like how do you
because i i know what people go through
they're they just want up off the floor
so that they can distract themselves yes
and
if they're going to make use
of that what is it that they have to
understand yeah
so
i always start with the easy questions
and work towards the hard ones and
actually and lisa's easy questions about
your life yes
in lisa's book she talks about how
she was saying like everything was good
enough right like good enough
why should i be complaining where it's
like the gratitude turned in to the
place that was keeping her stuck
and i think that's such a fascinating
thought like when she was saying that i
was like my gosh like nowadays if i ever
complain about anything it's always with
these caveats like i'm really stressed
out as a mom but i'm so grateful to have
healthy kids and i'm so grateful to have
a partner in all these things and it's
like we've forgotten that this isn't
like a comparison heart is hard
and when we're laying on the floor or
however we're choosing to rest
what creeps in is like i should be happy
i should be grateful what what is wrong
with me everyone else would be so happy
to have this situation why am i not
happy
and what it's led to is i feel like so
many people are just faking that they're
enjoying their life
i don't know how many people i mean we
know so many successful people
and you see them just crushing it online
and if you sit down with them and ask
them how are you really they're
miserable
and you were recently talking about how
you know for so long like money was the
pursuit money was a pursuit and i think
for so many people it is because it's a
necessity
but
when you put money above your time
when you treat money as the currency and
not time
you start to spend your life
trading your your hours for dollars
to not even be able to enjoy it
and so
when i start
laying on the floor it's like how am i
today
how does today feel
like am i excited about what i'm going
to do today
the second part of that is not just what
does success look like because i think a
lot of us can make vision boards all day
right like we could go onto pinterest
pin the house the car the outfits
whatever but how is success supposed to
feel
because i'll tell you that my most
successful moments are the least
glamorous things
like my most successful moments are
things that people would never
understand it's like pancakes on a
saturday morning i would have bet
millions of dollars you were gonna say
pancakes i which if people read the book
yes but yeah so
i had this vision when we were
struggling to grow our family
and i was working with someone who was
like just working on helping me get
quiet with myself because i was in a
state of grief i was in a state of anger
and
we set up a weekly call and every time
she would call i just wanted to ignore
it it was like
i can't i don't want to face it i don't
want to unearth it i know i'm going to
have to deal with it and one day we get
on the phone
she's like i want you to sit down and
i'm going to lead you through this
exercise you don't have to do anything
just just listen
and she asked me she said i want you to
envision like your most vibrant self
and i want for you to step into that
body like feel your fingers in her
finger slots your toes where her toes
land like feel what it feels like to be
alive and vibrant and healthy and happy
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improvement all right back to today's
episode
and i remember just like sitting there
and like tears are just streaming down
my face and
because you're imagining it because i'm
imagining it and it felt real there are
happy tears but it was like
my reality is so far away from this
and i wasn't envisioning anything grand
i was envisioning me wearing jeans which
most days i wear sweatpants
a white linen shirt and i envisioned
this little girl
eating pancakes at a table we didn't
have any children at the time
and it was so real i could like
literally hear the little girls giggle
and i get so emotional because
that exercise it felt so
just i mean it was 10 minutes of my life
but it transformed it for me because
then two years later when we were able
to have our daughter
when i was having those pancakes and
hearing that giggle i recognized that i
was like living that moment
do you remember when we were in puerto
rico
and brendan
told us like imagine the scenes for your
life like as someone who
creates films like you want to do
you direct
and you are in charge of everything but
we often cast ourselves as like the
extra in our life
and
when you imagine this scene and then you
get to experience it you're awake to it
and that every single time we make
pancakes and i hear a giggle i'm like
this is it
and
i think that when we're
so hard on ourselves or when we can't
get quiet with ourselves we can't even
hold a vision
and when we can't hold a vision we can't
realize when we're living it it's like
that quote like five years ago you would
have prayed for what you're living today
why do we need the five years
to recognize that why can we not
recognize that like every day we're
getting one step closer if we're working
towards it
[Music]
yeah that idea of something to aim at i
think is really interesting so in the
book in interviews i've heard you talk
about this that you actually
described the life you're living now
when i think you were in college and it
was very atypical
that would not have been this the common
description yeah and that you and your
husband ended up coming together on that
yes at least as you have described it
almost like through osmosis
yeah how important is that so as
somebody's getting quiet is it is it
creating a vision that you can then
begin steering towards
i mean absolutely i think that for us so
we were we met my freshman year of
college drew and i
we were just friends quote unquote for
years and we really were just friends
um i always thought he was really cute
but that was where it kind of stopped
and um
what's fascinating is like when we got
married i was working at target
he was working at a cell phone place
selling cell phones
and over the last decade we've like just
transformed and grown together but every
step of the way
we've had both our own visions for
ourselves and i think you and lisa have
had this too and you've experienced it
through your evolution
but we've had our own visions for
ourselves but we've also had this shared
vision and i think that shared vision is
so vital because if you are working
towards a life that isn't traditional or
that doesn't look like everyone else's
sometimes you need someone to cast that
vision for you when you start getting
lost right
sometimes you need someone to say i see
it it's going to be great you got gotta
keep going and you guys have so many
stories of how you continued to light
the way for each other and said like
we're in this together
and it's fascinating because my
husband's a stay-at-home dad
and in the midwest and i mean still
everywhere it's it's not traditional i
can't tell you the amount of times that
we'll be somewhere or say something
about our life or our lifestyle and
someone will look at drew and say and
what do you do for a living and then
he'll say i stay at home with my
daughters and then they'll look at me
like well what do you do
and
when we have i mean i am such a
different person than i was when we
stood at the altar
11 years ago
um but what i think is beautiful is not
only have we fallen in love with each
version of ourselves but we've welcomed
in the evolution i think people are so
resistant of changing we're so afraid of
it
look at the last few years that we've
all lived through we've faced
uncertainty we are resilient and
adaptable if you don't believe that
about yourself now
what are you doing because we've proven
to ourselves that we can face
uncertainty and still come out of it
so what is so scary about changing your
mind or changing your life or changing
your decisions that you're going to face
something different that's scary i think
that's exciting
so drew and i have really had to
continue to like shine the light on like
here's the vision here's the vision he
wanted to be a stay-at-home dad
and we weren't able to have a family to
be a stay-at-home dad you have to have
children so i had to keep shining the
light like we're gonna get there we're
gonna get there
but
you know it's a lot of baton handing off
you guys have had that you're in that
right now where it's like it's your turn
to run babe and i'm right here behind
you
and
i think that a lot of people forget it's
like we're on the same team
and we share that vision and when you do
that
it makes it so much easier and way more
fun to go through life like that no
doubt
okay so you get quiet yeah you build
this vision yep you hopefully surround
yourself with people that can dream cast
with you yeah
they're taking the baton back and forth
and you're building a life together
um how do you know if you're building in
the right direction how do you know that
you've created the right vision that it
feels good
that's very direct and gave me the
chills
i have okay tell me this you've you've
done so many incredible things in your
career how many times have you arrived
at something that you set as a goal and
it felt empty
only once really because i learned from
it
it was so profoundly devastating okay it
was so dark yeah and thank god for lisa
yeah because she pulled me aside and
said
you're really unhappy and it's now
damaging our marriage and because i had
put our marriage first i was like that
was the wake up call i needed to take
immediate action because i was like well
i know what my values are yeah and so
thankfully you know unfortunately and
you talk about this
very eloquently that sometimes we have
to learn things the hard way yeah and i
wish that i didn't i wish that i had
just listened when people said that
money can't buy you happiness i wish i
had understood what that really meant
yeah that money can't buy you the
neurological state that you will most
love being in
and maybe if somebody had said it like
that it would have broken through but
anyway it didn't so i chased money for a
long time lisa finally pulls me aside
points out that i'm profoundly unhappy
and so once i decided okay i'm never
going to chase money again i haven't
repeated that mistake so now i
definitely understand it doesn't mean
that i don't end up somewhere where i'm
like oh i thought this would be
different yeah but i don't
i'm never
chasing the outcome i love that so i'm
just really cautious about
as the process becomes less and less fun
because it's never like binary where you
step across the line and oh now it's not
fun yes it's like
oh like if you've ever been um in the
ocean and you feel like a cold current
hit you and you're like oh what was that
you back up and it's warm again so it's
like it yeah it's kind of gradual yeah
exactly so
i've been careful not to get trapped i
make mistakes all the time yeah but i
don't get fooled in that way anymore
your audience should learn that from you
like that is one of your greatest
lessons you can offer because i think
that people
continue to set
goals
and they arrive at them and they don't
feel like they thought they would and
then they start to doubt themselves and
their ability to cast the right goals or
to set the right goals i remember
when i first hit six figures which was
just a massive deal to me and i remember
the day
and i remember taking a shower and being
like why aren't the angels singing why
like where is the celebration where are
those like cute little balloons that all
the girls on instagram have like
nothing is different about my life in
fact i feel like exhausted
and
you know it it's interesting because i
feel like i learned that lesson really
young i was probably 25 and i and drew
and i sat down
and i said i was chasing the wrong thing
this doesn't feel good
and
in fact i'm really burnt out right now
and i was miserable and i remember
telling him like i would rather make 50
000 a year
go back eat more ramen noodles whatever
it takes but to have time with you
because here i am sitting and working
and looking at a picture of you and i
don't get to experience you
this isn't like what our life was
supposed to be
and so i feel like so often
when we're chasing these things we're
not actually staying in alignment of
like does this feel good i mean have you
ever looked at your calendar and you're
like who booked this yes it was me like
i did it like where you're like who
chose this for me oh wait
i put all these things on there and i
don't want to do any of them
and i think we don't take responsibility
for that first but we also don't take
the steps to change it i feel like
boundaries are like the new like balance
you know balance is like the catch
phrase for many years and i feel like
boundaries are is the new word but for
good reason because
a lot of us your wife included we were
yes people we're trained to always say
yes to always say yes well
we have looked at boundaries as this
thing that like keeps people or things
out of our lives when in fact boundaries
keep us in our life
and if we set right boundaries so if we
create boundaries that keep us living
our lives like boundaries for me for
example
we don't sleep with our cell phones in
our bedroom
we don't use our cell phones for work so
my team only operates on the computer
there's no expectation to have their
phone your phone is your personal device
i will never text or call you unless
it's an emergency
um creating boundaries like that keeps
me in my life so if my three-year-old
walt is in the room and my phone goes
off i know it's either her dad or her
grandma or someone like that it's not
work and it's not going to pull me out
of that moment
and so
when i think about
how do we stay in alignment with success
it's those constant check-ins of like
how does this feel it's looking out for
the cold fronts when the cold fronts are
showing up for a few different days
okay maybe it's time to reevaluate
and in today's world i was thinking
about this the other night and i want to
get your thoughts on this when we're on
an app like instagram and we're
scrolling through it
i follow interior designers and fashion
bloggers and entrepreneurs and i follow
you know motivational speakers i follow
incredible mothers and i'm consuming all
this information
and my brain isn't recognizing that
these people are really good at one
thing and so my brain is telling me i
need to be good at all the things i need
to have a house that looks like the
interior designers i need to be the
mother like the stay-at-home mother i
need to have the career like the
motivational speaker and you know
and i was thinking about it and i was
like it's fascinating how our brains
separate like the niches and throw them
all into a category that makes us
believe that we're not doing enough or
being enough which is why i believe that
we're chasing things that maybe look
good but don't feel good yeah that's so
important isn't it that's so important
that was the thing that i really liked
about the book is so my obsession
honestly if if
all of my efforts
you asked me to like what is the one
thing that you want to get across people
and i'm talking everything the comics
the video games movies tv
what we're doing now it would be you're
having a biological experience yes
what i'm trying to convey with that idea
is that ultimately you are a brain in a
vat it's just that your vat is your
skull
and
once you understand that it
all that matters is how you feel about
yourself when you're by yourself yes and
so when you're quiet when you're
shavasana on the floor and you're alone
with your thoughts are you like word or
are you
traumatized
and if you're traumatized that is not
it's not shame on you
but listen it's a data point yes
and what i love about your story is that
you've actually acted on these data
points
and
i want to know how
so you the number of pivots you've made
in your life and you detail this in the
book but the number of pivots you made
in your life is really incredible
i mean it's
i i know not to make you extraordinary
and let myself off the hook but it's
pretty incredible like you've found
success every time you've changed but i
think that you changed in a way that
avoided you hitting an iceberg yeah or
at least maybe you hit the iceberg but
you didn't sync yeah so how
going back to this okay we're building a
life we have the person that's going to
help us or the people that are going to
help us
but how do you get the
and maybe it's skill set to successfully
pivot because there's so much fear in
that moment yeah i'm assuming part of
what helps you get to the other side is
you're like i can figure this out yes
so
to give context just a few of the things
i've done we actually have one in common
i was a forklift driver as well
i really was
so i was a forklift driver and i did
wedding videos yes so i drove forklift
at a paper mill right uh my first job
ever was cleaning limousines
um
done a lot of different things but in my
entrepreneurial career i was a wedding
photographer then i had a watercolor
print shop then i became a podcaster a
speaker a coach all these different
things and
my thing that i truly believe is my
secret sauce
is that everything started as a side
hustle
i had to build up the confidence in
myself to go all in on every single
thing so
i feel like there are two camps of
people the people who are like jump in
the net will appear and the people who
are like let me weave my net
so that i feel safe enough to make the
leap i'm the weaver i'm the person that
i'm like i need to trust
that this calling is right and i need to
experiment with it first to know how it
feels
so every single time i've started
anything
i've always started it as a side hustle
with no pressure no stakes i don't want
money involved i always do it as like a
creative outlet
and then when it feels good or if it
feels good i pivot into it
and so
one of the reasons why i feel like i've
been able to do it successfully
is because i built a brand not a
business
and what i mean by that is is by
definition a business is like the
product or offer that you have for sale
but a brand is the personality behind
those offers
and even when i was a wedding
photographer i was showing up talking
about struggles and joys and triumphs
and all these things
so when all of a sudden i was like i
think i'm going to get out of weddings
which is exactly what i'm known for i
was the top wedding photographer in the
state for four years in a row
leaving that behind is a really big deal
but i had so many life moments when we
were trying to grow our family where i
was like this isn't it anymore it's just
not it
i didn't hang up my camera and say peace
out i'll figure out what's next i kept
shooting but i did less and less and
less and there's a chapter in the book
that talks about finding your enough
point
and what i mean by that is finding the
place where you can continue doing what
is giving you the security you need
to free up your time to get the
creativity back
so towards the end of my wedding career
i was shooting seven weddings which was
paying our mortgage and our bills so
that i wasn't worrying about that
but i wasn't doing 35 weddings in the
summer and killing myself over it
and so i have been able to pivot because
one i do so safely and slowly
but two i let myself be creative again
without the pressure and i think one
thing that is so hard for us as
entrepreneurs is we immediately think
how can i monetize that or like how can
i get paid for my time right because we
value our time is so expensive
but
i have built a brand that allows me to
move and evolve and change and grow and
invite people in on that without being
like a and today i'm this version and
tomorrow i'm this version and you've got
to follow me but it's like hey i'm
curious about this thing i think i'm
going to give it a shot i'm just going
to try it out and see what happens
and i invite people with that to come on
that journey with me i am all about like
showing up and perfectly i was telling
you as i walked in today i'm like this
is amazing i was like i recorded my
closet it's one of the top podcasts in
the country and i literally record in a
tiny closet with no team and just a
microphone and i still do that five
years in but that's the approachable
alignment that i need to make things
feel good for me
and so
yes i've pivoted time and time again and
i think i'm going to continue doing so
because i kind of get bored
or i kind of have different like calls
that i'm like curious about
but everything starts as a side hustle
and i feel like the world of
entrepreneurship has has neglected this
segment of the audience who is in that
trial phase or the experimentation phase
they don't feel like they fit they don't
feel like they're an entrepreneur they
can't say they're an entrepreneur and
they don't feel like they're a hobbyist
they have this dream this curiosity but
they're like where do i belong i don't
fit in in this world that we've given
them
and so i just want to say like if you
are in that experimentation phase
freaking have fun with it get creative
but don't box yourself in or create
another ladder that you're climbing that
might not be going in the right
direction what is up my friend tom bill
you here and i have a big question to
ask you how would you rate your level of
personal discipline on a scale of one to
ten if your answer is anything less than
a ten i've got something cool for you
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stressful boring which is what kills
most people or possibly scary or even
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potential requires you to do those
challenging stressful things and to
stick with them even when it gets boring
and it will get boring and even when you
might be afraid of the outcome if you
fail building your levels of personal
discipline is not easy but let me tell
you it pays off in fact i will tell you
you're never going to achieve anything
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if you're not already a 10 out of a 10
with this skill and i use that word
intentionally because it is a skill you
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class from impact theory university
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friends be legendary peace out
yeah i think that's really smart i get
so nervous when people say burn the
ships at the shore yes and like i get it
it's really motivating security is huge
it also yes when you have security and
you can take your time to think through
a problem and solve it well you're set
up to build a brand and not a business
when it's all business and it's like i i
have to make money right now today you
start making short term decisions it's
not necessarily certainly not optimized
for your emotional state
it may not even be optimized for the
long-term health of the business yeah
and so people get themselves into some
pretty gnarly situations caught up in
like the romance of entrepreneurship and
there is romance like there's something
amazing about building one of the
world's most listened to podcasts from
your closet like that's part of the
appeal and that's why when you came in
and said oh my god this is all amazing
yeah my identity is not tied up in that
yeah and so i'm grateful for the
compliments very kind but what i said
was all that matters is whether you're
having impact or not yes and so closet
set it really doesn't matter yeah and so
making sure that people are focusing on
the right things which you and i have
and when you were saying in the
beginning that you know there's things
we disagree on
i don't know reading your book i feel
like we have a different presentation
layer yeah you and i are functionally
different interacting with us
but
at the end
we're both saying like hey be really
thoughtful about how you feel because
that's all that matters and if you have
a billion dollars and no time to spend
on the things that you love what are you
doing yes like it doesn't matter yep it
doesn't matter it's funny i had um this
goal of being debt free by the age of
30. and uh did you make it i did i was
29.
and um i went into the bank to pay off
our mortgage and i like walked up and it
was like michelle and i was like
michelle
i would like to pay off our mortgage
and she was like
i don't know what i don't know how to do
that
and she's like are you sure i was like
yeah i really want to
um
and it's funny to me because i had hit
this point where
i was like what is the point of making
money when you're not even enjoying the
benefits of it and there's actually a
chapter in the book called the golden
handcuffs which i think a lot of people
are facing right now it's like the great
resignation from corporate jobs or jobs
that people aren't happy in
and in this story i had spoken with one
of my best friends we've been best
friends since college
every time i talked to her she was just
unhappy in her job
and she was the most devoted employee
like i was like i will pay you so much
money if you come work for me because
she
stayed
with this company over a decade but
hated it
and every time i would tell her like you
could do a million other things she's
like you know but i get vacation and i
fly first class and there's a ping pong
table in the break room and i was like
do you do any of those things do you
take vacation do you do you like ping
pong like does that really add value to
your life
and i think the golden handcuffs can
come whether you're an entrepreneur or
in a nine-to-five or even a stay-at-home
parent where you convince yourself that
the perks should be enough but you don't
even enjoy those perks
and
there's a voice telling you again like
you should be happy or you you should be
blessed or you should feel so grateful
for these things
but
we've forgotten how to like listen to
that gut feeling
we've forgotten because we're so
analytical and logical which i love like
i i'm a very logical person
but i forgot how to be emotional for a
long time i forgot to like feel my
actual feelings
and being a mom actually has really
helped me
to see a lot of these ways that i've
numbed things or dulled things or
avoided things because i watch a
three-year-old try to process feelings
and i watch her get so frustrated or mad
or like feeling so many things that she
can't even express
and i'm like oh
i have
i've literally just been trying to be
happy and not actually feel the sadness
or i've been trying to avoid the madness
or the frustration until it bubbles over
and so
it's it's interesting when we look at
things like people leaving the workforce
because i feel like it's like that
breaking point it's like the straw that
broke the camel's back where they're
finally ready to be like i'm gonna jump
and there isn't a net but i'm gonna hope
that i can find one or make one
and so it's really how do you think
they're going to do
i hope that they're going to do great
because i both hope they're going to be
yeah but like really look into the
future yeah because i think that you
have a unique
uh voice that people can really hear
yeah i think a lot of the people that
are going to jump or that have jumped
they crash yeah
how
do you help them build back up because
it it's survivable they're going to need
tools so i feel like
when people are jumping it's my first
indicator that they're actually
listening to themselves
right like they're finally at their
wit's end or they're finally at the
place where they're like i don't care
that there's no boat there i'm gonna go
so to me that's a really good indicator
that they're finally coming home to
themselves or like getting honest with
themselves
but it is really scary because it's like
do you have the right tools in your
toolbox to build up what's next or do
you have the belief
one thing that you and i did and
continue to do is like if we don't know
how to do something we learn right
and
i feel like
people have stopped embracing like the
role of a student it's like we don't
want to be seen being at the beginning
of anything we want to like show up when
it's perfect and fancy and done
but a lot of people are going to be at
the beginning
and i think the more that we can show
the beginnings whether it's at this
stage of their career or from 10 years
ago or when you guys were like googling
how to like how what is a palette like
lisa's like what is a palette sure i'll
do a palette what is a palette um
we've forgotten to be in that position
of students and so i hope that the
people that are jumping and maybe
crashing
are poising themselves in a position to
learn
and to
take on this
belief that it's okay to be at the
beginning again
but you've got to be willing to work
i think that's where things are getting
a little convoluted in our culture um
there are so many businesses right now
that can't find people to work right
like people aren't there isn't that
willingness to like pick yourself up by
the bootstraps and show up for a shift
even if it's not your dream job
and so
how do we
help people realize like if you are not
where you want to be today you can keep
doing that work while you're waiting you
don't have to waste that time that work
while you're waiting is super valuable
and that should be your boot camp to
help you get to where you want to go
and
for me when i think about even the story
of like the vision of me wearing jeans
and a white linen shirt and the little
girl with the pancakes when i look down
at my life i'm like i'm in freaking yoga
pants and a t-shirt
if i can't even buy the damn jeans
why do i think that i'm gonna change
once that little girl comes into my life
why do i not buy the jeans and wear them
today and get one step closer to that
vision
and so for the people that are hitting
and crashing and burning right now
i hope that you can hold enough space to
have a vision
but then
move forward in even like the most
microscopic way like if your vision is
to be vibrant and healthy maybe today
you just put your running shoes on
maybe tomorrow you take 10 steps in them
maybe the next day you walk a mile
but i think we're afraid to even start
you know
oh yes
yeah and i mean that a lot of what you
said has
has become controversial which makes me
very sad yeah because my thing is so
going back to okay the the one thing i
want to be remembered for you're having
a biological experience if you're going
to give me two things the next one is
skills have utility yes and so the point
of garnering a skill set
is that it lets you do something that
other people can't do and therefore you
become valuable and viable
and i that doesn't mean that you have no
worth if you don't have a job or you
don't have a skill set you do and you
know all the creatures have a certain
intrinsic value
but to glom onto that at the expense of
understanding that the reason that
humans have become the
just i mean the things we can do are so
breathtaking
is that we so there's a quote often
attributed to um
oh god evolution what's his name i can't
believe it darwin
he didn't actually say it but it's
somebody that
was very very familiar with his work and
said it's not the strongest of the
species that survive nor the most
intelligent but rather the most adaptive
to change
and that's what makes
humans as a species so incredible we are
so every species has to choose a
strategy yeah a horse comes out and it
can do all the horsy things in 20
minutes
as you well know as a parent yes it's
not the same with children yes and so we
have this long protracted period where
we have to be taken care of we have to
learn how to walk and talk and do all
the human-y things yeah but if you look
at that and go oh that's what we're
designed to do that's the strategy that
as a species we have chosen
therefore it doesn't matter if i'm good
at it today i just crashed and burned
okay why because i don't yet have the
skill set so now the question is check
in with yourself do you actually want
the skill set yes and so i'm always
telling people ask yourself do you
really want to be the best in the world
at that you probably won't ever make it
which is fine but do you really want to
strive towards being the best wedding
photographer or forklift driver or
whatever the case may be if the answer
is yes amazing the journey is going to
be incredible because you will enjoy
acquiring the skill set if the answer is
no then even acquiring the skill set
will be
a loss because you won't enjoy it but
now that you've decided i really do want
to be great at this
great at this is just skills yeah it's
not you're a better person it's just you
have skills that let you do something
that other people can't do yes and so
how do you become the best wedding
photographer or the greatest marketer
you go get good at wedding photography
or marketing yeah and so to me that's
always like really grounded it and so
when i think about
there's gonna be a lot of people doing
the great resignation you framed it
perfectly you've finally woken up yes to
what you're really feeling amazing but
now if you crash don't panic yep this is
about skill acquisition yes
well it's it's interesting because um i
think a lot of times when i look even at
my wedding photography career i wanted
to become a wedding photographer because
i was a bride myself so i lived that
experience and i was like this is
fascinating and i found myself not just
like picturing me as a bride but
picturing me as the person capturing the
bride and
i was so worried because i went to
school for business and i was like
people are gonna like wonder where i got
my photography degree they're gonna ask
all these questions
never once in my career did somebody ask
me like where did you go to art school
and i
studied it was it was crazy when i
bought my camera so
i bought this camera on craigslist for
300 and it was at a time when i was in
my 9 to 5 feeling burnt out like if the
great resignation was a decade ago that
would have been like my moment of like
the signal like i
don't want to do this five-year plan i
don't want to stay in this office i need
to get out
the camera became my vehicle to get out
of there and i remember
i
didn't realize how uninspired i had
become i didn't realize that i had
forgotten how to be creative i didn't
realize that i wasn't nurturing the side
of myself that was curious
so i bought this camera didn't even know
what the lens numbers meant like didn't
know anything like someone was like oh
what lens you got on there and i was
like reading it i was like 24 to 70 mm
like i didn't know i literally slept
with my camera on my nightstand and
would pick it up at random times like of
the day with different lighting and try
to learn how to shoot it
and it was like one of those things
where
i could make drew dance around with our
dogs our little tiny dogs and like try
to figure out the flash and like try to
learn it and it was the first time in my
adult life where i was a student that
was curious enough to find the solutions
without like someone telling me like
here's step a b c d and e i was like
okay i'm gonna look at a picture and
study it and wonder what did somebody
say to get those people to laugh that
way or how did they like know where to
set them up with a light looking that
way
and so for the people that are leaving
the great resignation i would say first
start with like what you're curious
about like what do you find yourself
searching on google at like two in the
morning or like what forums or rabbit
holes do you go down where you want to
learn more about that
oftentimes we brush off our curiosities
as just something like weird or
something different about us but every
time i've been curious about something
enough to like dive into it and be a
student of it i found like gifts inside
of that
and so when i became a wedding
photographer
i was so worried that people were gonna
say like you're a fraud what are you
doing like you don't have any you don't
have any business doing this
but i did have business doing it because
i was learning it and committed to
learning it
and i mean think about your journey and
all the ways that you had to learn how
to do everything you to wear every
single hat to get something off the
ground but beyond that you had to have
the belief that you could do it yeah
and
we've forgotten how to believe in
ourselves
it's so easy to look at like somebody
you love and be like you can do anything
you want to do but when we look in the
mirror at ourselves
we're like who am i who am i to do this
do it then
for me motherhood again has been a game
changer in that because i look at my
daughter and i'm like what kind of life
do i want her to have or what kind of
what kind of things do i want her to
believe to be true
and then i prove it
i want to flip the mirror and be like do
i like so i'll look at her and be like
gosh you're so beau