Kind: captions
Language: en
this idea that somehow we can program
the world to be the way we want it to be
it doesn't work that way that's really
interesting you know and I think that's
one of the reasons why we have these
epidemics of mental health issues the
younger generation that has grown up
with you know cell phones and sort of
ability to program I want to watch this
program now I want to listen to this
song and oh on top of everything else
it's free we think that we can make the
world the way we want it to be but when
it isn't it's creating all sorts of very
real human
suffering Susan Le welcome to the show
thank you so much for having me I'm
really delighted to be here I'm really
excited to get into this so this is a
topic I actually haven't thought a lot
about and so getting a chance to read
your book and I forced myself so we're
going to be talking about ethics but in
the context of how to live life well and
make good decisions and that really
feels like the right framework for what
you do and I think the word ethics is
going to lead some people astray as like
this is finger wagging and judgy judgy
but you really go out of your way to say
that's not what this is and that shame
and blame and all of that actually
create ethical problems they don't solve
them which I thought was a really Keen
Insight so we're going to be talking
about how to live life well how to think
well about your
decision-making but to do that I think
we have to get into the framework of
like how to do that and so I forced
myself to write down cuz I never think
of the word ethics but if you said are
you an ethical person I would get like
oh my god of course like that's really
important to me but I had never like
stopped to write down what the things
are beyond what I'll call my belief
system I had stopped to write down sort
of my ethical framework and your book
really begs that question as you go
through so I want to start there what is
the framework by which
you come to an ethical end point or a
North star a way to like know if your
decision is adhering to the right set of
things so it's a great question um and
it's actually a question that I address
in my first book The Power of Ethics but
I have a framework that applies to any
ethical question you could come up with
whether it's family or whether it's like
I have in the book should you use
Spotify for free or whether it's big
political questions um and the framework
is four words and the first word is
principles and as you're saying we all
have our sort of set of values or
principles they might be things like
respect or Integrity or accountability
or Compassion or generosity and I
certainly don't dictate anybody else's
principles um and in fact I work with
people and I work with students to sort
of think about what are the four or five
or six or seven probably not 10 and
probably not one um principles that are
most important to you and sort of your
lens through which you're going to look
at anything that comes your way um the
second is we have to think about the
information we have before us and is
that the second word information that's
the second word information um and the
information um sometimes it's complete
sometimes we know that you know our
grandmother is a certain age and there
are car keys in front of her and she
wants to use them uh and we know that
she probably doesn't have great eyesight
um and other times we don't have the
information that we need uh and an
example of that would be something like
Gene editing you know we think this can
be a fantastic opportunity cure cancer
in adults but why misused you know how
many potential damaging side effects
could there be what if it's misused like
it was by a rogue Chinese scientist to
edit the genes of of twin girls embryos
um so information is the second uh the
second item and really what we're
talking about with information is do you
have the information you need to make
the decision and if you don't I just say
be mindful of the Gap just as you're
making a decision just be mindful of the
information that you're missing kind of
monitor it over time and see if things
change see if you can fill that
information in before you make a
decision or not necessarily because
sometimes we just have to make decisions
sometimes we just have to decide you
know are we going to SpaceX are they
going to send that rocket ship up in
space they don't have all the
information they need you know how do
they decide that it's ready um and
sometimes the car keys are right in
front of us and the grandmother is right
in front of us and we're going to have
to decide let her drive or don't um
right then and there so uh we don't
always have the luxury of having all the
information we wish we had and also I
mean I'm not someone who thinks that
anyone myself included will spend all
day Bel laboring the ethics of every
decision that I make so um depending on
the importance of the decision if it's a
big Health decision uh or a decision
like using 23 and me where we might
learn some really challenging things
then we're probably going to take some
more time gather some more information
if it's a decision like am I going to
press I agree on the Netflix terms of
service my finger is on the button
before I even can say the word
information right um so we have
principles and information and the third
is stakeholders um and basically by that
I mean anybody or anything affected by
your decision and the critical thing in
today's world is that we affect so many
more people than we might imagine uh
with our decisions and in part that's
due to technology we post something we
don't know where it's going to end up
uh for the good or for the ill um but
also we just have all this opportunity
to reach more people which you're you
know you're obviously an expert in um
but we need to be mindful of of how many
different people uh can be affected by
the decisions we make um and then
finally consequences uh and the way I
look at this is we need to think about
the consequences of our decisions now
and in the future sort of short medium
and long term and very often
particularly in the business World um
but also in daily life we see people
making a decision sort of looking out
two or three weeks or a quarter and then
they get to the end and they look out to
the next quarter and they think that
they're being sort of long-term thinkers
but in fact we're being serial
short-term thinkers if that makes sense
we sort of set up little periods little
chunks of time for ourselves so the
message with consequences is really uh
think of multiple time frames don't just
think of today or tomorrow um but also
again in the interest of efficiency um I
always ask what what are the
consequences that are important and
irreparable so if something's going to
happen where somebody's life is going to
be lost you may be willing to compromise
on a lot of other principles because
that's the one thing that you can't let
happen um you know an example of that
would be I had a question from an NGO
once about should we pay bribes to get
vaccines into a country o um right
that's an interesting question yeah
because they're the and and this
particular NGO is the only source of
life-saving vaccines for children and
you know nobody thinks bribery is
ethical but you know this was the only
way these children were going to get
vaccinated and a lot of people were
getting very sort of if I may say so
high and mighty about the ethics of
bribery and finally I looked at them and
I said all right let's step back and I
always suggest looking at our decisions
from the standpoint of the person who
will be most adversely affected and then
imagining that person is us
so I said if it were your child would
you care about the bribery and then all
of a sudden the bribery was an issue we
had to deal with we had to make sure it
didn't become a habit right etc etc but
you know yeah that's so interesting so
what I love about that and that's really
where I want to get to at least in the
beginning of the conversation is you
need something that cuts through the
Clutter the noise the debate the back
and forth to okay cool this adheres to
this principle and now I'm going to move
forward
so we've got principles information
stakeholders consequences and as we look
at those it it there there's really not
a lot of like Ultra black and white and
you talk a lot about edge cases you talk
a lot about getting away from binary
thinking can be really problematic and
but that creates this like where it
becomes hard to navigate your way
through something so for instance going
back to principles
do we dictate to people what the
principles should be or is it we just
know that principles are going to be
determined by different people so I
think everybody should be able to
determine their own principles um but if
we're assessing somebody else's decision
if we're looking at sort of a scandal in
the news for example um we can look at
what principles the company for example
or the government official claimed to be
living by and see well what happened
here was it that that they actually were
not living by their stated principles
and the principles were pretty good or
was it actually the principles were not
so good so I'll give you an example of
each um one example of a company that
had really credible principles including
safety was Boeing and yet after two
tragic crashes in Indonesia and Ethiopia
the Boeing CEO was still begging um then
president Trump to keep planes flying so
the company's stated princip were
excellent but they just were not living
by them uh at that moment and in all the
moments that led up to um what drove
those crashes conversely um we look at a
company like uber back when they were
having their big moment of sexual
misconduct and changed CEOs and the like
and the principles were things like
making
magic so a little vague a little vague a
little hard to hold yourself accountable
for making magic or toe stomping what
did toe stomping mean not exactly sure I
I'm not sure if it meant just like step
on all the toes you need to to get where
you want to go I don't even that's my
get ins because even here at impact
Theory we talk a lot about no one has
toes so don't worry about stepping on
people's toes now I would never say toe
stomp because that has like a
connotation of
aggressively trying to mess somebody
else up yeah um so cool I get that um so
this is where it starts to get
interesting to me and I think to ground
this for people so basically what I want
to do is walk through how do we actually
generate a Northstar so that people can
think well through these things because
I'm not even thinking necessarily
societally I tend to think about the
individual and what they can do to make
their life better so I want to help
discover the process by which you would
identify um principles that are going to
serve people well that are going to take
them in a good direction to get there I
think there's at least one thing we need
to do but this might be like really
nested and somewhat complex and I'll say
is the North Star so what is that thing
that we should be aiming at I'll give
you my example of what a North star is
then I would love to hear like if you
already have one um if you do great and
then I want to find out what is the most
pnic question that you've had to deal
with where it was maybe even
surprisingly controversial so that we
can get into the thick of one where it
isn't obvious okay so my nor star would
be that every body at the individual
level should be doing everything they
can to reduce human suffering um and
I'll even say and uh
promote fulfillment so that would be the
thing I'm always thinking about that's
sort of the Bedrock by which I I judge
my own decisions and if I'm honest judge
the decisions of other people so that
would be my one thing it's very layered
and of course there's more to take into
consideration you said it's probably not
one principle that it's maybe not 10 but
it's not one but if I were going to give
a Northstar what am I steering towards
it's the uh lowering the amount of human
suffering in the world through my own
actions and then increasing the odds
that somebody will be able to achieve
fulfillment what is up my friend you and
I are living in a golden era of
self-improvement we have books platforms
like YouTube courses seminars virtual
events Workshops the list really is
endless the internet has been so good
for people like you and me who want to
accomplish greater and greater things in
life and now my friend it is about to
get even better I've been spending most
of this year working on the single most
entertaining tool that you're ever going
to have around self-improvement and it
is called project Kaizen it's a web 3
based game experience that will be
unlike anything else you've ever engaged
with in your life partly because the
technology is new and it's amazing if
you're not familiar with blockchain nfts
and all of that kaisen is going to be
the perfect introduction for you as it
is an excellent intersection of
entertainment and learning all back by
the blockchain we're getting closer and
closer to launching this project for you
every single day we are working our
faces to the Bone to get this thing out
there and my friend I want you to
experience it so click the link on your
screen and head on over to my Discord
channel to stay up todate and be one of
the first to join me inside of project
Kaizen which by the way gets its name
from the Japanese term of NeverEnding
Improvement all right back to today's
episode so I love that um and mine is
actually quite similar so what I phras
it slightly differently what I say is
that ethical decision- making tethers us
to our Humanity so we have this massive
opportunity if we think about even one
or two of the four words that I gave you
um or even just stop and think about
what our North Star us just the simple
fact of pausing and taking a breath and
thinking about the impact of our
decisions thinking about the
consequences is already really huge but
I think that ethical decision making
tethers us to our Humanity um and that
means different things in different
circumstances is going to say like it it
can mean a moment of it can mean
reducing suffering it can mean a moment
of kindness it can mean prioritizing
human health and well-being above above
other things um but it's all about our
Humanity it's and I think ethics is
really the great connector so by putting
human beings and human well-being first
that's another way of saying getting rid
of suffering um I I think we but I think
we have huge opportunity to be able to
do that that is untapped agreed okay so
if we have roughly the same Northstar
now what is um what's the most just
difficult ethical question you've ever
come against oh my goodness there are so
many so um I let me just say you
mentioned banishing sort of binary
thinking uh I do think there are certain
circumstances um where binary thinking
is important to maintain and there are
not very many of them but they are
things like racism sexual misconduct
inciting violence um many kinds of
phobias um against certain uh certain
groups so I do think that for me that's
binary that's something we all need to
work to try to eradicate um but I think
uh one question that's come up a lot in
different ways including with the Elon
musk's purchase of Twitter but also all
over University campuses is pitting Free
Speech against uh how we treat each
other uh and that's one aspect of human
suffering there's a lot of suffering
from the way we treat each other there's
a lot of suffering from speech that is
free but racist or dangerous um now
there are limitations on Free Speech in
different environments where I'm seeing
a lot of it is in academic institutions
but it's in daily life and it's on
Twitter and it's this battle of you know
who gets to decide where the boundaries
are between my right to free speech and
indeed the value of free speech in terms
of creating a diverse Society in terms
of furthering Democratic uh Society in
terms of our own right to express
ourselves um versus kind of harm that
can be done with speech so that's it's
just a really really difficult problem
and because it's on social media I think
it affects all of us uh and it's at a
scale that is just you know it's it's
Global it's at a scale that it's just
unfathomable and unprecedented okay so
this is perfect um before we dive into
this I will say that I don't consider
myself to have any particular wisdom
around free speech so I have no doubt
that I will um throw out ideas or
questions that I any of us do it's an
incable problem so as long as people
understand that I I'm certainly not in
this conversation in any way shape or
form trying to say that I have thought
through this or that I think I have the
answers only that what I hope to do in
this conversation is um practice myself
how to Think Through incredibly hard
problems and so whenever somebody asks
me a question if I don't know the answer
what I always say is well let me walk
you through how I think about it and so
that way it's like hey I I don't have
like there are some things um for
instance I feel very confident if you're
asking me about mindset or how to go
from not being an entrepreneur to being
an entrepreneur what do you have to
learn like all of those things I have a
high degree of confidence that I have
answers that are useful MH meaning that
they are efficacious that if you have a
goal if you take my advice it will
actually move you towards that goal so
uh but in free speech I don't have that
so I just haven't I don't know anybody
who does I think we're all kind of
mucking around in complexity here
amazing so perfect for us to explore so
now we have our
Northstar um what I want to get into is
what ends up making this such a
difficult conversation and what do we
put in place to navigate this well so
number one for me anyway is going to be
um what what I was just talking about so
what's going to reduce human suffering
what's going to lift people's ability to
achieve fulfillment at the individual
level because that's how I think and and
I think that way because I think it is
the right way that was air quotes for
anybody just listening uh the right way
to do it uh with full humility of
recognizing to your point in the book
you say you know a lot of times we think
we know something but do we really know
and so being super thoughtful about that
so I air quote that to to express to
self reflect to my own self that I need
to stay humble there um but I think
that's the right way to approach things
right defined as it will move you
towards your goal and my goal being the
North Star so we have like a nice
there's at least internal logic to what
I'm presenting um
so I'm going to add that second element
though to what I think people have have
to do as I think through a hard problem
is uh if I were going to give three
things to it so one I have that norstar
two I'm super paranoid about whether or
not I'm right so I completely distrust
myself uh and I think that's wise so I
have enough confidence to move forward
but enough humility to know I've been
wrong so many times in my life that no
matter how right I feel that I need to
be open and seeking disconfirming
evidence and then the third thing that I
would use in finding sort of the the the
again right decision meaning that it
moves me towards my goal is data that is
showing me that I'm actually moving
towards my goal and I feel like that is
something that is often missed in these
grander conversations and I don't know
if you'd agree with this but I feel like
certainly in America we're getting more
more polarized and pulling away from
each other and trying to find data so we
can see is this actually working or not
like we have a stated goal which should
have a metric tied to it and are we
actually getting closer to it um
does that feel like the right setup to
attack the problem of free speech or am
I missing something so I agree with all
of that and I would just add so I
certainly agree that we have to approach
these problems with a hefty dose of
humility um I think one of the things
that's really complicated about the Free
Speech question is that we're sort of
living the free speech question by
having discussions about about it um and
I think we need to uh one other thing I
would add is that when we look at a
really complex problem like this to your
point about you know how we tackle
complex problems we we should look at
the parts and try to parir it down a
little bit and the parts that for me at
least are not complicated are uh things
like where where do we go binary for
sure where should you know where do I
think there could be broad agreement
instead of the two extremes you
described um one is um inciting violence
somebody saying you know everybody you
know go out and kill 10 people um any
kind of inciting violence should be you
know that that shouldn't be an issue in
terms of in terms of free speech um
where do you draw the line there so this
is so the whole idea of the Overton
window I don't know do you want to
explain to people what the Overton
window is go for it okay so Overton
window is what is acceptable to talk
about so one of the ways that that the
mob I will say again I'm sort of air
quoting that but the now that social
media makes it possible for there to be
a mob no matter where you are if you're
on the
platform the way that the mob in
intentionally or otherwise um tries to
influence Free Speech we'll say because
they can't stop it but they can
certainly influence it until we get into
like censorship by the platform so the
platforms can very much uh put hard
limits based on Shadow Banning and
things like that around the overt window
but the over to window is the things
that are acceptable to talk about um so
for here's a great example of something
that I'm super grateful is outside of
the Overton window uh hey um we should
you know to our doctor friend in China
like hey there are people that cuz if I
remember right from the real story it
was he was trying to make the twins uh
more resilient to HIV exactly and so hey
I'm going to make this real quick Gene
modification to HIV and we're good right
and that that falls into sort of
eugenics territory and has this like
knock on effect of like unknown things
now that particular example isn't
necessarily Eugenics but like it it to
me is a little too close to like that
where some things are okay and other
things just have to be eradicated now
I'm actually a huge proporn of Gene
editing we can get into the messiness of
that later but like that would be an
example of where we're all just like no
like you can't Gene edit the germ line
just it's completely off the table we're
not going to discuss it nope nope nope
um so that would be an example of
something it's outside the pale of what
we consider um okay to child pornography
is something we've all agreed on you
know so yeah no I was just going to say
there there aren't many of those things
but we at least need to start with okay
where do we have agreement or or you
know at least by enlarge agreement um
and things that are as you say Beyond
The Pale but the point that you raised
about the instant mob is critical
because it's why we don't have a sense
today of where to draw the line and
certainly after what we saw on January
6th the Insurrection I mean we it's very
hard because all of a sudden you know
one statement on social media
millions of people around the planet uh
can respond to it and indeed what did we
see with this tragic shooting in Buffalo
the governor of New York said it was a
quote Feeding Frenzy I mean she talked
about and I talk about in a lot of my
work the contagion and basically you
know it changes uh the question
completely if you're talking about
somebody standing on a soap box in
Central Park saying you know let's light
the theater on fire versus somebody
posting something on social media and
even the Supreme Court hasn't quite
figured out what to do with that yet um
but it does change the what is sort of
an immediate threat what is clear and
present danger um to use sort of legal
terminology what is you know it's very
different when you have um as you say
when you have social media make you know
creating an instant mob yeah so okay so
just to put all the pieces on the table
so we have the Overton window there's
going to be some things that you can
talk about some things that you can't um
figuring out where the edges of that are
going to be ex extremely difficult
and as we build our framework to figure
that out what like where do you fall on
the over 10 window like should
everything be discussable like even as I
was giving the example of the um the
doctor editing the gene for HIV I
actually want them to be able to talk
about it I want them to be able to do it
so I sort of gave a terrible example of
the overt window which would be
something we shouldn't even discuss and
so so so if we're
removing um inciting violence you've got
Elon Musk saying I'm just going to
follow the law of the land so the will
of the people if people want less Free
Speech then they will vote for it so in
each jurisdiction it doesn't look like
the Twitter Sal is going to go through
but when it did look like it was going
to go through he was sort of publicly
pontificating about how he would handle
it uh that was his
solution um do we need a solution so
given my framework
work the only thing I come back to is
and this is a piece that I haven't put
on the table yet is as I was mapping out
sort of how I go about things
um I sort of clung to that the the
concept that I think the founding
fathers of this country is where it came
from I check me if I'm incorrect about
that but the idea of my rights end where
somebody else's rights
begin and so that notion feels important
to put on the table so um if we're
looking at free speech through that lens
so inciting not being able to incite
violence seems to be a response to the
idea of my rights end where yours begin
so if I'm doing something that triggers
something that's going to take away your
rights then I can't do that um but short
of that being able to think well through
the problem it feels like using my uh
definitions it feels like the Overton
window
should not necessarily I I I would say
infinite up to that point point of again
taking somebody else's rights away
um but that isn't I don't think that's
universally agreed upon so it's a so all
of this is very tricky but if we look at
first of all um in terms of defining the
problem or tackling the problem what are
the big pieces of this problem one big
piece of the problem is that
corporations have
outsized influence on how speech is
distributed and so that's it's Twitter
it's Facebook and Beyond
uh and that's something that we didn't
we've never had before so that's a huge
issue um and the second is that
technology makes things virulently
contagious so it's not one racist remark
in somebody's living room not that
that's acceptable at least to me but
it's something that will
instantaneously um you know get fired
around the world and potentially you
know tweeted and retweeted or liked or
however however that's happening so the
danger level on both s on on on ious um
angles on what violence is on what
racism is is is as you've said is a
whole other level so that's another
piece of the problem we have to solve
then we have to solve the problem of who
gets to decide where we're drawing the
lines who gets to decide about the
overed window who gets to decide um you
know other than again in the very clear
areas like child pornography um who gets
to decide um and a lot of it is coming
back to these companies are deciding but
you know is that right um and so these
are that's why these problems are so
intractable and then the fourth is to
come back to uh your point about my
rights and your rights it doesn't really
work um in this context because um you
know we had an example of that with
covid and maske wearing and you know my
own view is that you don't have a right
to expose somebody else to illness you
have a right to make choices about where
you wear a mask if you're the only
person who's going to be affected you
know walking around a park or something
but my own view is we don't have a right
to to expose someone else to co anymore
than we have a right to run a red light
or to drive drunk or you know any other
sort of behavior that would put someone
else can I can I zoom in on that because
this is where the stuff starts to get so
hard for me so um people because I was
going to translate those words into
because when you said we don't have the
right to expose somebody else to illness
I don't think people would agree with
that you don't have the right to expose
them to an illness that is believed to
be serious that I think you'd get a lot
more people on board okay the problem is
that some people are going to say that
Co isn't that serious and so and now
like if we really want to get
complicated Co is way more serious for
somebody that has underlying conditions
so if you are um obese for instance your
risk factors go through the roof so now
it's like okay well for some people it
really may not be a big deal for other
people it is devastating super dangerous
so we have one of my um teammates here
at impact Theory they they can't get
vaccinated because are in the high
allergy group so they've been told not
to take the vaccine like they would love
to they can't so they've effectively not
left their house for 2 and a half years
I mean emotionally devastating
emotionally terrible yeah yeah so this
is not a person like trying to draw a
line in the sand and and be up about it
like they're just they would love to but
they can't and so they're at ultra high
risk so now they wouldn't want to be
exposed so but how now do we come to an
agreement where you've got def defans
become so not only how you define your
principles is a question but how you
define whether this is a serious illness
or not cuz for however many eons we've
all exposed each other to colds never
been a big deal if you saw somebody
sneeze in public you might give them a
sideways glance you know during cold
season but you wouldn't be like now
people like run up and scream at you I
never saw that before so it's like we've
got moods shifting I think based on the
perceived seriousness of the illness but
not everybody's on board with that so
how do we navate I think you raise a
really great point which is that we're
not going to get everybody on board with
any of this um now one of the things
about covid is that we need to start
with the science wherever the science is
and you know the science has evolved and
the messaging that we've gotten from the
CDC and from The Who and and these you
know and medical leaders has shifted as
the science has shifted with Co we need
to start with the science um and then
people will have different sort of risk
reward calculations as you've said
yourself you've given some great
examples uh and institutions will have
different risk reward calculations so
for example I teach at Stanford spring
term and we all wear masks in class and
there are plenty of students who think
that's ridiculous and there are plenty
of students who would wear a mask even
if it wasn't now it's strongly
recommended um but even when it was
required so so I'm not sure we're going
to get to everybody agreeing on things I
would hope we could at least agree that
we need to acknowledge what the science
says and then our different risk reward
calculations might be different
um the free speech is is you know a
whole other dimension of sensitivity um
and then what we have in the balance
also just the importance of a diversity
of ideas when we look at other parts of
the world where you know there's Rising
authoritarianism what's that about it's
a lot about controlling the narrative
it's a lot about one person saying you
know your speech anywhere is censored or
this is what happened and not giving
people access to other views about what
happened whether it's history or whether
it's what happened this morning um and
we certainly are seeing that in Russia
we're seeing that uh with Victor orbon
we're seeing that in you know in Victor
Orban um uh in Hungary uh I don't know
anything about it sad report something
bad I take it is happening well he's
basically an authoritarian figure great
yeah that's going to look bad as a
transcript but just for anybody reading
somehow I don't mean literally great
that's terrible yeah um no but just to
say that that you know Rising
authoritarianism is a lot about
controlling The Narrative and so um all
of the democratic ideals that you know
most of us hold to be important and that
you know in other countries people
strive for uh and they give us the
rights that you're talking about and the
freedoms you're talking about uh free
speech is incredibly important and at
the same time we are also at record
levels of speech that is just
abor
um it's just a really really complicated
problem now I think the the the one
aspect of this that uh comes up a lot is
cancel culture and I don't know if you
have a view on on cancel culture I do I
have a a blunt force trauma view on
cancel culture it's not nuanced nobody
should take what I say as policy but the
way that I look at that is it's coming
from it started in a beautiful place and
it the the divide that I see happening
now is I think based in what I call
directives that are embedded in the
human mind From Evolution I think
Evolution realized realized this is
obviously not the blind watchmaker to
use Richard Dawkins term but the to
anthropomorphize it you've got Evolution
realizing that you need a bifurcated
strategy in which the the best result
comes from the friction between two
different ways of viewing the world and
in a two-party system it basically as
far as I know and again I'm not a
scholar on this but I've looked at it
closely enough this feels roughly
accurate uh two- party systems are
always going to break down along the
following lines you're going to have one
group is the you have to be
compassionate and you no man left behind
right like we're going to make sure that
everybody gets taken care of and then on
the other side you have personal
responsibility and if you look at this
from an evolutionary lens you understand
why this would be useful as a social
creature you need to take care of the
other people in tribe because they
strength in numbers and so if you're not
tribe Centric if you're not thinking
about the whole you're going to get
picked off you'll value isolation you
won't think about it your dust uh yeah I
was going to go into the prehistoric
documentary by Apple TV is absolutely
incredible uh anyway but if you get
isolated you're in real trouble but on
the other hand you will get um there's a
guy named Dan arieli who wrote a book
called predictively irrational he goes
into all the weird things that humans do
and one of them is that we will lie and
take advantage to the point where it
doesn't Force us to change our opinion
of ourselves which I think is a really
Keen Insight in human nature keight so
you've got the freeloader problem so if
you're over here we've got to take care
of everybody there will be a subset of
people that are like word you'll take
care of me so I'm not going to do
anything so that has to be balanced out
by people like hold on hold on hold on
like yes I get it but you need to
also take responsibility for yourself
work hard contribute now either of those
devolve into tyranny in either direction
like if you let just people trying to be
compassionate go this way you have the
gulg archipelago for anybody listening
that hasn't read that read it it will
terrify the out of you and then
over here on the other side you devolve
into the Nazis so it's like hey we're
going towards Madness in either
direction it is the friction between
those two things that makes magic so my
wife and I for instance we very much
look at the world differently we share a
lot of values which is how we're able to
stay together but we also are really
different which is why we have a high
functioning marriage and a high
functioning business so we need that
friction now what I have learned is that
when the sides value the friction and
they realize oh I actually wouldn't
thrive on my own I feel really strongly
about my side but I would not thrive on
my
own then all is well when one side
though goes no no no I'm right and they
are the enemy and they are a problem and
that's all I hear right now so it feels
like we're just getting yanked in either
direction so cancel culture is born of
this idea of my side is right the other
side is not just wrong but they're other
deserve to exist exactly now you get
into a dark dark place so where I come
out on Council culture is that there
really is language and there really are
actions that just shouldn't be that
really are just
abor but I think we should be canceling
that language and those actions and not
canceling people interesting so once you
cancel because you believe in Redemption
well well um let me put it in like in
pure ethics terms or at least like pra
my practical ethics terms when you
cancel someone you've basically another
way of saying that is you've just G
taken away all incentive for them to try
to improve all incentive why should
anybody try to improve if no matter what
they do you've decided they don't
deserve to exist these are facts right
so I believe in ethical resilience and
Recovery I don't know that I'd call it
Redemption because it's hard work to
your earlier point it's tell the truth
take your part of the responsibility and
then make a plan so that it doesn't
happen again well if you've canceled
somebody they're not going to bother to
do any of that um and the other thing is
coming back to your humility point which
I wholeheartedly share you know we all
make mistakes we all have errors in
judgment we're all we all look at
something we said and think of oh my God
how could I have said that um and in
fact in my Stanford classes I tell
everyone because the topics are so
sensitive I basically say at the
beginning of the term everyone's going
to say something they're going to regret
so if you need to correct and I have too
many hands in the air and I don't get to
you just like wave your hand wildly and
say sorry I need to do a correction and
I will make a point of calling on you
and let you do a correction and we're
all going to give each other benefit of
the doubt um but cancel culture is a way
of saying I'm you don't deserve to exist
as a human being uh that's so hardcore
that's so hardcore and I think it that
you know but I certainly think there's a
lot of language that doesn't deserve to
exist and a lot of you know and a lot of
behavior that should never exist um so
so I hope we can get away from canceling
people and get to cancelling language
and behavior um and hope you know
but but like you like you optimistic I'm
I'm an Ethics optimist so I'm
fundamentally um you know high energy
High optimism very pro-innovation
so uh yeah I'm I'm I'm
optimistic but it's a difficult time
it's a difficult time that's that is a
very gentle way to say say where I was
headed so I am optimistic for two
reasons one by Nature I'm optimistic and
two I think that um mood follows action
so if I focus on all the ways that
everything is going wrong I'm just going
to get more and more and more
pessimistic if I focus on all the ways
we can get things to go right then I'm
at least going to keep trying so I don't
want to give up but Ray Delia really
summed up my belief so he wrote a book
called uh principles for dealing with a
changing World Order nobody has spent
more money if I remember right he spent
hundreds of millions of dollars trying
to figure out sort of global movements
he's used AI he's built the largest um
hedge fund in the world so this is a
person whose job depends on his ability
to read sort of how society's change
over time so that he knows where to
invest and where not to invest and 18
months ago he writes a book and he says
I put the US's chance of going into
Civil War at
30% I interview him 18 months after he
wrote it and I said where do you think
our chance of civil war is now and he
said I put it at 40% that's terrifying
that is terrifying so the person who
spent more money than anybody else
looking at this uh has more incentive to
get this right than anybody else is
telling you that we're moving in the
wrong direction and that's how it feels
to me that we're moving in the wrong
direction now I love that he still got
us below 50% so that I'm going to cling
to that as The Optimist um but I really
feel like we're moving in the wrong
direction and so as a as an entrepreneur
I think a lot about the idea of how you
unwind something so you have to be able
to test so I believe in what I call the
physics of progress the physics of
progress is just the um scientific
method recontextualized for business so
it's hypothesis test your hypothesis
look honestly at the data refine your
hypothesis try again so I'm always
looking at that well whatever I try it's
not going to work all the way and so I
need the ability to fail to some extent
sometimes catastrophically other times
just a little bit to learn to refine to
try again and as I'm looking at the
problem through that lens of like oh
okay like how do we begin to unwind
because I feel like culturally we're all
making a mistake we're we're doing
things that increase the division from
the way social media algorithms work to
the way that we're defining the Overton
window to the way that we're othering
people that hold different views than us
it's been going on for a very very very
very long time long before we got into
social media but turbocharged by social
media turbocharged in the extreme so now
we have something where I don't see the
way out I'm not saying there isn't one
I'm just saying I with my limited brain
and Viewpoint I don't see the path out
knowing what I know about human brains
other than massive suffering so normally
what happens and unfortunately this is
exactly what Ray Delio is talking about
is hey guys I've just looked at the last
5,000 years of recorded history and I'm
telling you that we move in a six phase
cycle and nobody stays in what's phase
three I think is prosperity nobody stays
in phase three very long and it's just
human nature and I think the exact way
he said it is there's only a certain
number of personality types and that's
why history repeats itself because it's
just humans react to each other based on
these whatever 19 personality types and
that's it and you're just going to keep
coming back around and so again I say
this with my optimistic hat on but ah
with my limited brain I don't see how we
back out of this because the only way
that I see is for people to want to
reconnect to want to see the other
person as like they're a full-fledged
human being acting in good faith and
they just believe something different
than me and I need to relish the
friction between our worldviews so I
certainly agree with you um that we're
not headed in a great Direction right
now in a lot of ways and some have to do
with laws that are being adopted across
the us just to speak to the US for a
moment I mean Ukraine is certainly
tragic um I think I read in an oped in
the New York Times this morning that
there have been 243 mass shootings in
the US since the beginning of 2022
that's insane yeah I think I could get
now that number could be wrong I could
be remembering it wrong from my
breakfast I'm guessing you're
directionally correct um but it's pretty
insane uh and that is a more us specific
problem um but there are a lot of ways
in which we're going in the wrong
direction um and I certainly don't have
all the answers and I certainly don't
have Ray Doo's perspective or budget or
analysis and I think and I find it
fascinating but I have to say I I do
believe that we will see the importance
of connecting um in fact I say in my
first book that ethics is the great
connector just stopping and thinking
about our decisions even on a daily
basis even how we interact with family
members um and I think we're going to
have to think about lots of different
contributors to a solution and not one
um and we're going to have to stop and
think can you give me some of those like
if we were just going to march to your
drum beat which I'm sure is not a
responsibility you want but let's say
that you have it and that we're going to
follow definitely don't think I should
be telling anybody what to do but yeah
so in in that caveat what are your sort
of best practices on this real issue
we're we're headed towards massive
division how do we get back together so
one thing is to take a deep breath and
really listen to what other people are
telling us I talk a lot about effective
listening as a critical pillar of Ethics
um listening to what people are really
telling us not what we want to hear not
what we expect to hear not what we think
they should be telling us in all kinds
of ways starting with medical
Diagnostics all the way to people that
we think have entirely different points
of view what is it that is driving that
point of view what are they really
telling us is it really about that one
issue or is it really about a context
that we're not fully understanding sort
of it's a it's back to sort of where's
the problem that we're trying to solve
so I think that's one thing I think the
second is um is this really seemingly
simple kind of pressing pause and saying
what I'm about to do what is the worst
impact that could have and if it were me
if it were my child would I still do it
and even if we still proceed sometimes
you know selfishly so put it that way I
I really think that it just this sense
of just thinking about the consequences
of what we say and do on someone else um
is really uh is really important one
place we've seen and I don't know if if
you've had any of this experience but a
bit of an Awakening in that respect is
around um uh racism and a lot of the
great writing that has come to the for
about racism and about how a lot of us
you know think of course we're not
racist of course we you know don't hold
views like that of course we don't speak
in race in what we consider to be racist
ways but one of the things that many of
us and I put you know my hand up first
recognize we all have a lot of work to
do we all come with unconscious biases
nobody is free from unconscious biases
and so just that awareness I think has
been taking hold uh more broadly in
recent years um thanks to a whole range
of different writers and just thanks to
what's gone on in society what is up my
friend Tom billu here and I have a big
question to ask you how would you rate
your level of personal discipline on a
scale of 1 to 10 if your answer is
anything less than a 10 I've got
something cool for you and let me tell
you right now discipline by its very
nature means compelling yourself to do
difficult things that are stressful
boring which is what kills most people
or possibly scary or even painful now
here is the thing achieving huge goals
and stretching to reach your potential
requires you to do those challenging
stressful things and to stick with them
even when it gets boring and it will get
boring building your levels of personal
discipline is not easy but let me tell
you it pays off in fact I will tell you
you're never going to achieve anything
meaningful unless you develop discipline
all right I've just released a class
from Impact Theory university called how
to build Ironclad discipline that
teaches you the process of building
yourself up in this area so that you can
push yourself to do the hard things that
greatness is going to require of you all
right click the link on the screen
register for this class right now and
let's get to work I will see you inside
this Workshop from Impact Theory
University until then my friends be
legendary this
out so this goes back to um what I was
saying about efficacy so on race again I
do not have wisdom around race but I
have concerns that if we look at the
data that we're getting more polarized
around race now than we were before like
man I didn't used to think about race at
all and meaning I like I completely
subscribe to the idea and now this is
like considered p uh I'm a total like
Martin Luther King Jr guy uh or Nelson
Mandela guy and I just think oh my God
like Nelson Mandela may be the most
inspiring person I've ever encountered
in history like when I hear his story I
am I am knocked to my knees with
recognition that I'm not strong enough
to do what he did and that's not me
being humble that is me just knowing
myself well enough like 27 years in
prison I certainly I I couldn't come
close yeah so just did something that I
I am not uh emotionally equipped to pull
off
and but his whole thing was he comes out
of prison and says no I want the the
very people that were part of my
incarceration I want them to be on my
security detail and knew that this is
about Unity about bringing people
together right Martin Luther King I Have
a Dream that people would be judged by
the content of their character and not
the color of their skin and that's be
being considered P right like that's a a
naive way to look at the problem and so
I'm like oh man like I don't know like
this doesn't feel like we're headed in a
unification Direction it feels like
we're getting now pulled even more
violently apart I think on that one I
certainly I certainly wouldn't disagree
that we're being pulled apart but I do
think that there's a recognition for
example that we all bring unconscious
bias to the table as a factor of
evolution or you think there's something
else just a fact of the way we see the
world that we can all benefit from
having many different voices around the
table and hiring uh many different
voices around the table and determining
you know back to so