Kind: captions
Language: en
Abraham Lincoln famously whenever he was
really mad at a subordinate like you
know one of the generals in the Civil
War he would write them like just a
really nasty letter like he would just
this is what you're doing wrong this is
you know he would write everything that
he wanted to say and then he'd put that
letter in an envelope and then put it in
his drawer and then wait you know a day
or a week and then most of the time he
wouldn't send it Courage calls to each
of us will we answer or maybe that's too
much can we get better at answering can
we step up more times than we step back
let's start there
I like that a lot yeah okay that's not
something uh how do we get more
courageous so that we answer that call
more often
well I think the more you can make it a
habit right in in the same way that
exercise like this morning uh obviously
yeah like I don't want to work out but I
decided to and so I did right
um and then I remember standing in the
shower and it was nice and warm and then
when you crank that handle you know to
the cold part even if it's just for a
few seconds I think one of the things
you're doing is like reminding yourself
who's in charge
and who is in charge
I'd like to think the courageous side of
me is in charge like the side that does
the hard thing the side the the the side
that does the uncomfortable thing this
decide the the conscious side can
override the emotional side or vice
versa depending on what it is right but
it Seneca talks about the reason to
treat the body rigorously so that it's
not disobedient to the mind
which I love I think about that all the
time you know like who that's who's in
charge right like you or your desire to
be comfortable to be well liked uh to
accomplish what you're trying to
accomplish like who's in charge
and I think if you think about courage
as like very rarely the easy way and
almost always the harder way
um you can build that as a muscle like I
do the harder thing I don't read the
comments right like I say what I think
is true and I don't Flinch you know is
this going to be bad for me or not like
uh that doesn't mean you go around half
cocked but like I
I don't Flinch from stuff I do that hard
thing to me that's the Habit that we're
trying to build and I think one of the
ways we do that bring this full circle
is by not just studying history but by
like integrating those people into your
lives like what would they do here like
what tradition are you an heir to
um
there's a great poem by Longfellow where
he talks about
um
that uh the lot he says the lives of all
great men remind us we can make our
lives Sublime and then he says and then
in doing that we can leave behind us
footprints in the sands of time
that for another person he says sailing
over life's Solomon can take heart from
right so I think if you think about it
as this like sort of series of like this
unending
procession of torches like that were one
torch is lighting another is lighting
another is lighting another and that you
you
are a descendant uh literally or
figuratively of people who have endured
like unimaginable
difficulties and persevered through it
um and so can you and in so doing you
are reassuring the people
that come from you again literally or
figuratively that uh they also have what
it takes
talk to me about the idea of burning the
White Flag well I think when you look at
a lot of
courageous acts whether it's you know
sort of resistance in war or you know
somebody who you know enacted some
political change or whatever there was
this sort of tenacious refusal to
surrender like
um
Seneca talks again quote Seneca says
like if they can force you to do it you
don't know how to die whoa meaning that
like uh
you can lose
but
quitting is a choice I think uh if you
read old man in the sea by Hemingway no
it's a beautiful very short book but
um you know he says a man can be
defeated but not destroyed or is it
destroyed or not defeated but the point
is those are not the same thing right
and that the decision to quit the
decision to give up the decision to
concede
that's ultimately a power that you
always have
um again you can you're going to end up
on the losing side that happens
um
but you decide if that's it
I think that might even be the that idea
was when you brought up Churchill
talking to his daughter-in-law because
if I remember right the quote about go
there's nothing stopping you from going
into the kitchen and getting a butcher's
knife and taking a few of these bastards
with you I'm not saying that they can
eventually beat you just that you don't
ever have to give up or something like
that I think that's right I think that's
right although there is another great
Churchill quote where he says never ever
ever ever ever ever ever give in it says
accept in matters of taste and good
sense or in in except in matters of
Honor or good sense so are there some
times where it makes sense to concede
yes that is my all-time favorite quote I
[ __ ] love that so much it's so good I
mean he just walked into a school of
boys and just you're supposed to give
like a 30-minute address and that's what
he said
it's amazing have you seen the movie our
finest Hour uh yeah yeah oh God I love
this so much look he there's no doubt
that he's a complex figure who did also
dumb [ __ ] yeah but to think and in fact
this is an idea that comes up in the
book over and over and over again and is
very inspiring to me which is this idea
of one person's showing courage can
become a majority and the courage is
contagious as they say
yes give me more about that well there's
a quote it's attributed to Andrew
Jackson we don't know if he actually
said it but he said um
uh one man with courage makes a majority
and I don't know if there's like a viral
video of like some guy at like a concert
and uh no everyone's sitting in the
grass he just starts dancing and then
like suddenly more and more have you
seen this one and like suddenly I
haven't seen the whole crowd is dancing
but it's a it's a nice metaphor for what
we're talking about and de Gaulle was
asked this uh towards the end of his
life
um you know people think like for
instance the French Resistance everyone
was in the French Resistance like the
Nazis overran France and five percent of
the population resisted whoa five
percent so it's not just like oh hey
like a new political party came and uh
like we didn't really like it but like
no like the worst cause in human history
takes over your country and only five
percent of people were like I object
right like people were like I don't like
this but only five percent of people
maybe less actively participate in the
resistance now of course retroactively
everyone says we were with you yeah
that's not how it was but degal was
asked you know uh is it isn't it true
that you were always in a minority in
everything you did and he said yes but I
always believed that someday that would
cease to be so and you think about this
the first video that you post uh first
book that I write the first time anyone
does anything creatively financially
entrepreneurially nobody thought it
would work right like you were the only
one that believed in it or else they
would have done it right like and sure
maybe the five people but the point is
the vast majority of people thought it
was if it thought it was a bad idea or
couldn't even K muster up enough care to
tell you it was a bad idea like they
were just ignorant of your entire
existence right so you were you were in
a fundamental minority when you start
anything
and you have to have this belief and
again we talk about the courageousness
of earnestness
you have to have a belief that one day
that will cease to be so
um you know when I so my first book
about stoicism I'd written two
successful marketing books
and my publisher told me after
that
um you know they were not interested in
what became the obstacles Away really at
all they offered me half what I got paid
for my first book for what was my third
book the obstacles less than half
um and I remember my editor said
something like I asked her like this
like last year and she said you know we
were just hoping you would get this out
of your system and go back to doing what
we thought you should be doing right and
you know I get it like in retrospect
like obscure books about uh
a
books about an ancient obscure School of
philosophy are not like the most sexy
but that's what I wanted to do and more
importantly I had seen what it had done
for me and I believed that it would be
bigger than they thought it would be but
there was a moment where that was not
empirically you know evident and you
know it took
it took uh it didn't hit the obstacles
when I hit no bestseller list when it
came out uh and it did not hit any best
sellers although it sold consistently
did not hit a single bestseller list for
the first six years old
um
and it Shrugged along until eventually
it hit number one and when it hit number
one of course everyone said well
obviously you know this is a popular
School of ancient philosophy like of
course you know right
um
and I think anyone that's Unearthed
anything or popularized anything or
invented anything new experience is that
like everyone tells you it's a bad idea
until you definitively prove it was a
good idea and then the curse is that it
looks like it was obvious all along
you're actually given example of that in
the book
um
oh God which person it was the Kennedys
and uh the Shriver I think I forgot my
first name yeah yeah
um
in 1960 Martin Luther King is arrested
for integrating a restaurant in Georgia
and
this is like
not
like oh he was just arrested and he was
going to be treated well in jail like it
was very
real there was a very real threat that
he would be lynched or murdered in
police custody and even if he wasn't he
was sentenced to four months on a chain
gang which again was likely a pretext
for him to be killed while escaping or
lynched or you know mysteriously
disappear
um
and so Coretta Scott King you want to
talk about courage she's raising two
children she's pregnant with her third
she says I'm gonna call
Kennedy and Nixon the two guys running
for president I'm going to call the next
president of the United States and see
if they can't intervene tell my husband
and Nixon going back to the Roosevelt
thing we were talking about Nixon says I
don't want to get involved uh it's going
to be bad for me politically when I'm
president I'll be in a position to help
you
um and the worst part about it is he was
actually friends with Martin Luther King
he knew him personally they'd socialized
he'd worked with him when Nixon ran
Eisenhower's civil rights uh uh projects
and but in the moment of truth he wasn't
there and Kennedy
um was advised by people looking at the
same political calculation to also not
get involved except his brother-in-law
uh says no man you gotta do this like
it's not just the right thing it's like
the only thing like you can't let this
the Civil Rights leader of our time you
know be murdered in a Georgia prison
again what good is be becoming president
if you can't do this and so Kennedy and
his brother Robert can get involved they
call the judge they call the governor
they pull some strings and they get King
released basically they put enough
attention on it that it was no longer
possible for something bad to happen in
the shadows
in any case King gets out he's
devastated that his friend betrayed him
and you know impressed at the balls on
Kennedy uh that that hey this isn't just
some like rich kid from Boston uh with
you know powerful parents uh this is
like a guy with real courage and real
commitment to to you know the ideals of
what America is supposed to stand for
and so Kennedy uh so Ken King comes out
and says like this is what John F
Kennedy does for me and uh John F
Kennedy wins the presidency by like 30
000 votes
um
almost entirely due to the switch of
black turnout most in 1960 actually the
Republican party was the party of
African Americans not the Democratic
party and so it flips
uh and he wins the presidency so when we
talk about courage it's like first off
it's not always going to be obvious
people are going to be telling you it's
precisely the wrong thing to do
um but then also just like a few seconds
of Courage can change not just the
course of your life
but
talk about the great man of history
there it can change the course of an
entire Society do I remember I also that
people told Shriver dude don't this is
not advice you want to give yeah because
if he feels pressured by you he's gonna
never wanna hear from you again and
you'll be Iced Out Of The Campaign and
if he ends up taking your advice
everyone's gonna forget that you just
took this big risk well this is how all
bureaucracies function basically all
organizations where you know you don't
people don't have real skin in the game
it's all downside and no upside to to
speak up right if you if you push for
the risk and it doesn't work you're the
idiot who screwed it all up and you get
fired and and if it works out of course
you were right it was obvious and here's
your pat on the back you did your job
you know and so he he he had to call in
he called in his own his
he he basically said look
I'm family
I'm calling in my one chip right like
you have to do he put it all on the line
and uh
again yeah who remembers it nobody
uh you've got no credit for it Kennedy
gets the credit
um Kennedy became president right he got
all of it
um and that is
I think another important sort of
you know I talk about in the book I talk
about courage is this like sort of rare
gem you hold up in different angles
produce different sort of Reflections
but like
we often think of the courageous
president the courageous CEO the
courageous whistleblower whatever but we
also often forget the sort of ordinary
courage of the people who spoke up
inside of an organization
people who put forth this little policy
are made this little tweaker pocketed
this piece of paper to prevent some bad
thing from happening like
courage is not always sexy and obvious
and it's not you know riding a galloping
horse you know or it's not flashed
across the headlines it can often be
very unsung as well
yeah it's there's a an interesting quote
from Steve Jobs in the book where he
says one way that we remember who we are
is when we remind ourselves of who our
heroes are
which I thought was really interesting
I'm curious who are your Heroes
yeah I think what what
jobs is talking about is the same thing
I'm
talking about in how I approach things
and what I try to do my books which is
like
who whose standard are you trying to
live up to like whose Shadow are you
walking in who are you who are you
trying not to let down
and if you think about those and you
think about who those are for Apple you
know they have the famous sort of
Misfits commercial
um the weird ones or whatever it is um
you know who are those people for you
and can you make them real to you and
again thinking about like who your
heroes are is really clarifying I think
I have obviously have a bunch of ancient
Heroes of course uh the Stokes being the
ones I talk about the most and you know
I return to the same characters in the
books quite often that's something I
have to sometimes be careful as I'm
fascinated by Ulysses S Grant Abraham
Lincoln Florence Nightingale was someone
I'd been wanting to write about for a
long time and hadn't been able to
um
but as far as living I don't I always
feel weird doing the living one because
I'm all for dead like who are some of
your favorite stoics and why well so
what's fascinating to me about stoicism
is
the Spectrum
on which the stoics exists so the
Epictetus was born a slave you have
Marcus Aurelius who's born into
privilege and then is chosen to be
Emperor and so you have extreme
adversity and extreme advantage
and yet they both
sort of play The Hand That Fades that
fate deals them with such sort of Grace
virtue and
[Music]
self-control
and wisdom that I just I love that
because the reality is we're somewhere
in the middle of that Spectrum almost
all of us right we're unlikely to lead
the Free World we're unlikely to be
thrown into chains
but we're either dealing with too much
or not enough of something and how do
you sort of stand up
to that to me is what it's all all about
so I I what I love about stoicism and
why I found it just so fulfilling to
write about is like
they were real people
like not academics not uh
even even Seneca the sort of the
probably the greatest writer of the
stoics is like the second most powerful
man in Rome
and he's a playwright like on the side
like he's
he's
in the arena you know like doing doing
the work and I I think idea is that
don't have that component it doesn't
really matter to me how brilliant they
are uh they haven't been tested
and I think what I take from The Stokes
is like they've been tested in every
imaginable way in context
now somebody that has gotten into your
universe and I he wrote something on the
cover of your book and I know wrote you
an email that you have hung on your wall
that you take as a reminder I would
assume daily yeah is General Mattis
I would definitely be a living hero for
me for sure I wondered about that and
how did you guys connect
um through Stephen pressfield
interesting what is it about Mattis who
I find fascinating that you uh think is
worthy of that kind of Praise well I
mean anyone that works in public service
for decades you know I think uh is
worthy of our sort of respect and
gratitude uh particularly something like
the Marines you know serving actively in
combat and all different positions of
leadership but I think you know anyone
that lives by a code
kind of seems like apart from the rest
of us because they're they're
something really difficult it's like we
know how difficult that is and we know
how challenging it is and
we know that it's it's
we know they could get away with less
right so I I always admire someone
even when I disagree with them I really
admire people who live by a code like
politically so many things I might
disagree with with say a John McCain but
clearly this is a man who lives by a
code has real skin in the game
pertaining to that code and under
pressure at various times in his life in
some cases unimaginable pressure like
being a prisoner of war
um
she's stuck to the code when again he
didn't have to and so I admire people
and I try to follow
in my own small way in the footsteps of
people who have stuck with that code
even when it's custom so Mattis famously
resigns on principle
um when uh when the U.S pulls out of
Syria
has also though believes that you know
basically you don't criticize sitting
presidents so even though he disagreed
vehemently with the president who he
resigned said nothing critical
uh and again I I just I I just admire
someone who lives by code but he and I
were emailing and um we're talking about
something that had just happened in the
world I forget what it was specifically
it was a major event and I was sort of
down on it and I was pointing out
um you know I was I was sort of asking
like is this is this as bad as I think
it is and he was like yeah it's like
it's worse right
um
but he but he said something reassuring
he said you know sometimes it's darkest
before the dawn and then uh gave me some
sort of reassurance and I said like well
if you're saying that and you've seen
some like you've seen some of the worst
things that human beings do to each
other which is what war is and you still
have hope I was like what excuse do I
have and he just said hold the line
which is sort of like the Mantra that he
has sort of introduced uh he's given a
couple famous speeches about it
um it's sort of like that's his thing
it's just hold the line and it's a great
it's a great little Mantra because I
think it
what is the line what is up my friend
Tom bilyu here and I have a big question
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legendary peace out
right I think the line is virtue like
what is what does your oath tell you to
do what does your conscious tell you to
do what is your professional obligation
tell you to do
um what does virtue tell you to do and I
think that's what he was saying it's
like doesn't matter what's happening in
the outside world doesn't matter if this
is you know I think what he was joking
he was like it's always darkest before
the dawn
um but uh sometimes it just stays dark
or something like that right like he
wasn't saying like it's all sunshine and
Rose it's all gonna be good what he was
saying is like could be great could be
horrible but like you know what your job
is how often do you think about that
moment for you very specifically like do
you have a codified set of so I think of
my mind as a pachenko ball machine if
you know what those look like right you
drop the ball on the top it bounced
around over a lot of things and those
things that it's bouncing on is my um
the code that I live by right my belief
system yeah so I take something negative
uh or you know there's nothing good or
bad but think he makes it so sure so
it's like and I put it through all of
that so that I get a resulting outcome
that is useful which is how I think of
it do you spend a lot of time building
something like that yeah yeah you know
know we're not robots so we can't like
okay I'm not going to react this is like
an intuitive almost an unconscious
process right and and so you're sort of
you're trying to
you're trying to put all this
information in there you're trying to to
sort of put in those those little points
that the thing is bouncing around on on
the way down as a way of sort of slowing
down the process I think most people
your average person who doesn't work on
themselves who's not reading who doesn't
care about any of this they're just
they're they're the time between
stimulus and responses like nothing
right and the the more you work on it
the more you practice the more you're
able to question your own thoughts so
what is that slowing it down what does
that practice process look like like how
do you practice that that's a good
question I mean it it'd be like how do
they practice uh swimming in a bad in
baseball I mean they just swing it a lot
and they they watch film of themselves
so they're stepping back and evaluating
things after they happen they're looking
for cues they're they've got other
people around them who are giving them
feedback I think it's about a sort of
cultivating an awareness and a process
of continual reflection on on the data
that your life is creating all the time
do you think most people do that though
no of course not that's why it's such a
huge Competitive Edge to start working
on that do you know what I mean and and
the earlier you start working on it the
sooner you're going to start to see
results but the more those results are
going to compound over time there's
nothing in let's say stoic philosophy
where we're saying that you know the
idea that there's no good or bad there's
just the interpretation that we have on
things so I first learned that when I
was 19 years old I'm sitting in my
apartment in college and I read this
book and some person 2000 years ago said
that to me so I that was the first time
I encountered it intellectually a week
later
that would have only a minuscule impact
on my life but every every time I've
thought about it every time I've studied
it every time I've tried to reflect on
how in retrospect I could have done that
better I've accumulated
slightly more now more knowledge more
appreciation more set more sense of that
the truth of that and and the I've
gotten better and better at it I might
be only 20 better at it now but I'm
hoping that it's 70 uh that that return
will compound not unlike my retirement
savings right like you're thinking about
this and working on it and writing about
it and talking to other people about it
and and trying to evaluate your own
behavior and then it's just this process
of of reflection and
minuscule Improvement as you go you're
not trying to get to Perfection right
now you're just trying to get a little
bit better than you were yesterday or an
hour ago do you read Ray dalio's
principles I have not read it but I've
heard amazing things about it right I
know I know I know a bunch of the
principles but his practice is similar
right he's like we're recording all our
meetings we're getting feedback from
people in the office about how you're
doing one of my favorite stories about
that uh Pete Carroll the coach of the
Seattle Seahawks one of the best coaches
in the NFL he was talking about how you
know coaches are constantly filming
their players and they're forcing the
players to break uh to break down game
film they're ruthless like it's like you
could have a great game and then the
next day you're you're back in the
practice facility and you know the
receivers coach is telling you what a
horrible game you had and all the
opportunities that you've won and and so
uh obviously that's that's what makes
these guys so great and Coach Carroll
was saying like I realized I don't do
that to the coaches like the coaches
never experienced that and so he started
filming his coaches and he would he
would force them at the beginning of the
season to look back at all the times
that they blew it right that they lost
their temper or that they missed
something and and so I try to do that in
my own life I mean one of the ways that
I you know authors aren't supposed to
read their own reviews for instance one
of the reasons that I read most of the
Amazon reviews let's say on my books is
that I want to get feedback from people
so I'm not reading them to feel like I'm
awesome or to to sort of whip myself but
I I want to see what people are
responding to and I want to get
unsolicited feedback on on the writing I
have a a filter that I put that
information through but I'm looking for
as much feedback as I can about the
things that I do so that I can
incorporate that data and get better so
this is like my life's Obsession this
moment right here so one I want to know
what that feel filter is and we'll get
to that in a second but so
you're you're incredibly successful
right you've got your own company it's
doing well working with biggest
companies ever you're a multiple time
best-selling author and you have
perennial sellers in the mix as well
which is sell sell sell sell sell sell
why the hell do you subject yourself to
the self-flagellation of an Amazon
review like what what is that about well
it's not self-flagellation so you have
to make that distinction how do you
prime yourself mentally for it not to
become self-flagellation I can't change
what happened so I'm looking for this
feedback for tips and information that
can help me improve so that that person
who let's say they didn't like what I
did so that I can not let that happen
again they'd say you know Ryan uh I
really like this book but I can't let my
son read it because he uses the f word a
lot and so it's like okay so some people
don't like cursing and then I notice as
I went through the the positive reviews
no one ever said I really like how Ryan
curses a lot so this was a this wasn't
something that was important to me right
and here it was having a negative impact
on some of the readers and then let's
say a marginal to no impact no positive
impact to the readers who were enjoying
it so to me that's a pretty easy data
point to go like okay
in some cases I think I need to drop an
F-bomb here to catch people's attention
right and I can see that when I talk if
the audience is
you know sort of drifting a little bit I
can call I can use it you know
um but there's no reason for me to do
this in my and so in in the daily Stoke
there the there's no curse words and
that was an improvement I think that
made the book better and I got that by
going through this process that makes a
lot of sense now now talk to me you said
you have like an installed filter that
you use to know what to listen to and
what not to listen to yeah look at the
feedback you're getting and then
remember what you were trying to do for
instance I'll I'll get a criticism uh
from let's call them stoic
fundamentalists right people are really
sort of nerds about philosophy
um who will say you know Ryan
um you know Ryan doesn't add anything
new he's just taking stoic principles
and illustrating them with stories right
so that'll be one criticism or they'll
so they'll say you should read The
Originals don't read Ryan's book or
other people will say
um you know Ryan is taking these
Timeless virtuous principles and then
illustrate rating them with famous
successful people and you know that sort
of cheapens it or you know that's that's
uh that's not what stoicism is about
let's say well in both cases I was
explicitly trying to do the thing they
were criticizing me for right so I say
in the book if you're really interested
in stoicism go read the ancient stone
text I cannot do better than them what I
was writing uh the obstacles the way and
he goes the enemy is for people who
don't have time or interest in ancient
philosophy but are trying to improve
their life in some way so I'm trying to
meet them where they are so when someone
says that I didn't do this thing that I
explicitly wasn't trying to do my filter
is going okay this person shouldn't have
read the book this wasn't for them I
don't need to take this personally right
if you're trying to be everything for
everyone and you read feedback you're
just going to get more lost because some
one person's gonna say this and another
person is going to say that but if you
know here's exactly what I was trying to
accomplish and here's what that success
looks like then you can you can filter
this information and go okay is this
person's advice giving me close closer
to where I want to get or further from
where I want to get and that has been
really helpful to me what I love about
that and I really hope people are
listening to what you're saying is
you're doing it with an eye towards
getting better to me there's an element
this is why I brought up
um principles by Ray dalio is his thing
is all about like I'm just trying to get
to truth yes and one of the things that
I wish on every human being is to one
day in some way shape or form understand
what it's like to be an entrepreneur in
that if the company does well
Fortune can be yours and if it does
poorly you can lose everything sure the
amount of [ __ ] that cuts through is
crazy like it's not even necessarily
that I don't want to have an ego I'd
love to have a big thriving ego and
people are always saying like how do you
stay humble with the success dude
because if I don't I'm gonna lose
everything no the the reality of how low
the margin for error is is like the
ultimate recipe or sort of shortcut to
humility like let's say we're I'm
fighting with
um an editor or someone or even just a
friend who's reading one of my books
about you know the use of this sentence
or this paragraph or this stylistic or
you know something in a book I don't
have the room to be like you don't know
what the [ __ ] you're talking about like
I'm the genius let me do this right
because if I'm wrong I don't feel so
secure in uh what I do that I feel like
I can afford to let ego make any of
those decisions I have to let truth make
those decisions so you know there's a
writing adage it's like when when
someone one says that something's wrong
they're almost always right I think this
is true in life when someone says
there's something wrong with what you're
doing or you know how you're carrying
yourself or what you're you know a
project with your a product they're
almost always right when they explain
why it's wrong or how to fix it they're
almost always wrong so it's like when
someone's saying like I don't like
chapter six they're right they don't
like chapter six right when they say you
should get rid of chapter six or you
should you know make chapter six the
opposite of what it is or get rid of
this story they're probably wrong but
you should try to figure out why chapter
six isn't working and improve it and
make sure that it's aligned with your
vision because maybe it's not or if it's
perfectly aligned with your vision then
you have to make the tough call and go
look
I'm not going to please this person all
right so now the million dollar question
how the hell do you know the difference
first off you should just go like
like I'll give you an example I I I've
talked about this before too but like
one of the dangers of Entrepreneurship
is or making anything is that like
people around you are going to be like
that's not a good idea don't do it and
then you don't listen and you do it and
you end up being right well you've kind
of just learned a very dangerous lesson
which is like just disregard what other
people say so one of the reasons you
tend to see people on the way up take a
company like uber they're just like
blowing past conventional wisdom
business best practices they're doing it
their way over and over and over again
and they're going up and up and up and
that's creating a feedback loop where
it's like the rules don't matter we do
it our way we do it our way and they're
being rewarded for it over and over
again and then at some point they cross
a line and now all of a sudden they've
started to do things that are illegal
that are unethical that their customers
aren't gonna like but there's a delay
between doing that and being held
responsible for that and that's where
the sort of catastrophic explosion and
consequences inevitably come in and so
whenever you feel yourself going I'm
just gonna blow past what everyone's
saying they're all idiots you know they
don't know that's a really bad sign that
you're probably doing something out of
ego so I think that certainty is
something I'm always uh nervous about
like so it's become sort of cliche in
entrepreneur circles and and you've
probably read this article you know the
idea of like it's it's hell yes or hell
no right like you either you're either a
thousand percent on it or you say no but
all the difficult decisions I've ever
made in my life were like you know 51.49
so so it's like in some ways I'm
actually really skeptical I think that
there's a great point in that article
which is like just don't do you know
don't do stuff just because you're
supposed to but it should be tough and
if it feels easy then I want to question
that I guess is one of my answers and
then look nobody said writing a book or
being a leader or you know shepherding
some vision and no one said it was going
to be easy and clear and you were going
to know these are things that are going
to keep you up at night and that you got
to roll the dice on to a certain degree
and so you just do it and then if you're
wrong you learn and you do it better
next time
how do you keep your emotions out of the
way like I I have a very simple formula
which is the thing that I want in this
world I want so desperately that and
it's not an ego thing so it's very I
have an ego for sure but it's very easy
for me to set that aside because it's
not the thing that I want most okay and
so in those times of like emotionally I
want to do this yeah but then I just
check it against oh does it actually
help me get where I want to go no okay
cool then I'm gonna go after that what
mechanism do you have for dealing with
that well what I think one of the best
ways is just time right Abraham Lincoln
famously whenever he was really mad at a
subordinate like you know one of the
generals in the Civil War he would write
them like just a really nasty letter
like he would just this is what you're
doing wrong this is you know he would
write everything that he wanted to say
and then he'd put that letter in an
envelope and then put it in his drawer
and then wait you know a day or a week
and then most of the time you wouldn't
send it and so one of the things I try
to do is I go like do I really need to
respond to this right now because that
tends to be where that emotion the
emotions are typically immediate right
like I'd find even the things that I'm
really upset about I'm most upset about
them when I first find out about them if
I give it a weekend or if I sleep on it
I'm much less upset about them and I'm
going to be more rational and I'm going
to be more
responsible with how I reply so I just
want to give it some time I mean one of
the tests that I have
I do this with emails a lot like if I'm
fighting or I'm arguing with someone
I'll go like what if I just pretend I
didn't get their response like I'm not
even gonna read it like I know like I
just said I just said my piece
and then they sent me a response back
like five minutes later I'm just not
gonna I'm just gonna delete it right
and then I'll let them have to resend it
to me or just let the issue drop right
so I'm kind of just sticking my head in
the sand but I'm I'm really just
creating space for there to be less
because they're not going to resend the
exact same thing they're gonna hey we
need to talk about that thing and go oh
what was it and then we'll you know
we'll we'll have a little bit a more
reasonable of a dialogue when I feel
that impulse it's like I gotta do this
right now that's emotion and that's
probably not going to get the best
solution out of things what are things
that wind you up to use a nice British
phrase that get me pissed off yeah you
know when people mess with my stuff so
like if I like writing is about what I'm
trying to accomplish right and so I did
it the way I wanted it to be done and
I'll get really upset like if something
comes back to me even if it's small and
Like A Change Is made without just like
I'm very open to taking criticism and
feedback but like I caught something
let's say with a copy editor recently on
a book I was working on where like they
reworked something without they just
assumed I would be okay with it and they
reworked it and I caught it and that was
very upsetting to me right because if I
hadn't caught it something that I didn't
sign off on could have gone out to the
my readers but you know uh I was much
more upset about it at three o'clock on
a Tuesday than I was the following
Thursday when I finally got to the
bottom of what happened and I worked
through it it's just never that great to
act out okay actually I'll give you
something because I think about this
question a lot too and so I've asked
some of the basketball coaches that I've
that I've worked with or have read my
book I was like uh I was like do you
ever get like a technical on purpose
because like a coach you know the worst
thing a coach could do is get so mad
about something that they give the team
the opposing team an extra point right
so obviously you don't want to get a
technical on accident like because
you're just ripped around by your
emotions but sometimes
you should get upset to send a message
to your team to send a message to the
refs you know to get the crowd going
whatever it is and so I'm I was like
that I'm interested I'm interested if
I'm going to use my emotions I want to
be calm internally but projecting the
emotional response that's going to be
effective in that situation but I don't
want to be jerked around by those
emotions
unconsciously did that that's advanced
class [ __ ] yeah so this is something I
don't often talk to people about but is
is absolutely necessary I think to
certainly be running a company is a
you've got to be able to control your
emotions so you're not getting whipped
around as you said but B you have to
understand that all of this even
emotions expressed suppressed facial
expressions all of it is a performance
meant to convey something yes and once
you understand that you can leverage
outrage intensity anger whatever the
case may be as a tool yes to move
somebody down the road then you can
really start to become effective well
think about it this way if you yell at
your people every time something is
wrong they'll just be like oh Tom's a
yeller and if I just don't mind being
yelled at I can get away with anything
you know what I mean that's a very that
happens in companies a lot it's like you
have to be calcul in some ways
calculating and controlled
and choose what you're going to get
upset about otherwise the people that
you're projecting that to aren't going
to be able to discern a minor mistake
from a catastrophic mistake it's very
important that you're not the the boy
who cried wolf you know the one who's
who's uh
screaming about inconsequential matters
and then when someone messes something
up when they cross that red line they're
not going to take it seriously because
you're like look you yelled at me
yesterday because the coffee was cold
and you know here you messed up
something on the calendar or whatever it
is that you've gotta you've got to be
able to use the those are those emotions
how you articulate what you're feeling
or your you know
how you're going to act in a meeting or
how you're going to pre you know present
a plan that's a communication tool and
you've got to be able to use that you
can't just be oh I'm not feeling it so
I'm down today or I'm in a shitty mood
so I'm going to be yelling today that's
not a good way to make those tough
decisions I think of ego's the enemy and
perennial seller somewhat is compendiums
to each other okay
um
what and I guess if you don't I'll give
you my reasons for that if you want to
create something great yeah you need to
get your ego out of the way right so
that's sort of the moral of the story
for me right so the perennial seller
addresses how to actually tactically
create something that's great but you
can still feel the egos the enemy
elements in it where it's like you're
ultimately the one that's gonna stop you
or Propel you forward yeah so taking
that concept of if you want to create
something great this is how you get out
of your own way what are like the three
or four things that people need to do
think believe whatever in order to
achieve greatness well so number one
like what are you actually trying to do
because you can't do 15 things at the
same time so like here's what I'm making
that's the the main like do you actually
know right because sometimes people are
trying to do too much at one time and
then who is this for because it can't be
for you you know like obviously every
thing that you work on should be
fulfilling and exciting and interesting
to you but you're not
the customer of your product by
definition right you can't buy it from
yourself so like how is this going to
provide value for the audience that's
like the most important thing and that
has to be the ruthless test that you
check everything you're doing against
number three is like who are the people
that are helping you check whether
you're doing that or not right and so I
think you need to have that test even if
you're self-funding an entrepreneurial
venture like
the fact that you know you were
successful in the past so you don't have
to get venture capital on your next
project that's great but it's also a
potential disadvantage because now you
don't have this external objective
feedback telling you where you can
improve where you can fall short so that
means you need to work extra hard to
cultivate those people whether it's a
board of directors whether it's trusted
friends whether it's a focus group like
who is interacting with this thing and
giving you feedback I think that's
really important and then I would say
that fourth and the most important one
and this is where ego I think kills a
lot of projects is people think like if
I build it they will come right if I
just make something so good it will
automatically be successful or they go
I'm a maker like I shouldn't have to
also be a marketer and and to me the
creative process the entrepreneurial
process is sort of two consecutive
marathons so you run this Marathon you
you make a book you know you have a
movie in the can you have a prototype of
an invention whatever it is you you know
you stagger across the Finish Line
you're like I did it and like you know
the race Proctor they grab you and you
think they're taking you to the metal
stand they're like you know you did it
you won uh but really they're just like
taking you through a shoot to the
starting line of the second Marathon
which is now how the hell do we get this
into people's hands right and so with
every book it's like the first marathon
is making it for me and then the second
marathon is like all right now I have to
be as creative I have to work as hard I
have to throw as much energy into
selling this thing to everyone that it's
potentially for as humanly possible and
so I tend to find that creatives are
either or with books or movies or
whatever I'm working on is either
they're only interested in the marketing
Marathon because they're great sales
people and they think like oh I'll just
slap something together or they're so
creative and they so love that process
that they want to they want to skip the
second Marathon courage Temperance
Justice wisdom the only one that I think
people are unfamiliar with is temperance
which basically means self-discipline or
moderation some combination of those two
things but the cardinal virtues are the
Cardinal version virtues of Christianity
of stoicism of a whole bunch of
different philosophical schools
um and so I'm this is my first attempt
at doing a series of interconnected
intertwined books why do you think
virtues matter like what is the so much
has been made of this and like the whole
stoic philosophy is around it and much
of philosophy quite frankly
yeah well I mean I think what virtue is
trying the idea of virtue tries to
answer the question of like how should a
person be like what code should you live
your life by what sort of standard
should you hold yourself to how should
you evaluate your behavior what should
you struck what is the mark that you're
striving for and what I like about
courage Temperance Justice and wisdom is
first off they're all interrelated and
impossible to actually separate right
like justice uh is impossible without
courage but also uh courage
if not in pursuit of Justice isn't
anything to admire right and so they're
all really and then you take something
like wisdom the pursuit of wisdom is the
scariest thing in the world why I would
not because I would have said courage is
way scarier well I'm what I'm saying is
you need courage to pursue truth because
truth challenges us right truth can put
us on in the minority of something right
truth can uh Force us to see
uncomfortable things about ourselves
um the the pursuit of knowledge is a
journey that most people are afraid to
go on right they just take what other
people tell them or they're do you think
they're actually afraid to go on that
Journey or do they just by default I
mean I think it's it's a default but
what is behind the default why don't
people pursue things right and I think
fear is obviously a sort of a through
line in a lot of people's lives but I
think the idea of the virtues is they're
all related to each other but there's
not a single situation of any
significance or importance in life that
does not call upon
at least one of those virtues from us
and so to me it's sort of like
the lodestar of like what direction
you're going in life
okay have you thought at all about why
having because I think everybody should
live by a code obviously the Stokes do
you everything that you put out in your
book certainly Intimates that there's a
meaning behind that
do you have a sense of what that
foundational sort of axiomatic reason to
have a code is well you know William
James talks about he says the person you
should pity the most in the world is the
person who's having to wing it every day
like the person who's having to decide
everything and new because of discomfort
poor decision making right like imagine
like you don't have a diet you don't
have a code you don't have a a set of
priorities in your life you don't have
something you're working towards you
don't have a way that you like to do
things then every single decision you
have to
think about
consciously right as opposed to being
able to instinctually know or sort of
measure against something so his point
is like you want to make good habits you
want to sort of build these virtues or
this code into your life so you're not
spending every just just like the person
who has to decide every morning what
could I wear this morning or what could
I wear today and having to choose from
hundreds of things that that is not what
Steve Jobs does or Obama did in office
Obama had I think two suits right it's
like black or blue and you pick one
right so I think one of the things that
a code does or that the idea of the
cardinal virtues does is it just Narrows
down the considerations that you have to
weigh or consider in the course of a day
that's not to say it makes it easy
because the decisions themselves are
still often hard or there's risks
involved but you're not having to weigh
an infinite amount of possibilities
I also find that I'm curious to see if
this is true for you in your life I'm
distressed by the fact that if somebody
were to ask me a question one day and
then ask me the same question six weeks
later I might give you a different
answer and one of the answers is better
than the other and so you know Ray dalio
wrote the book principles and this whole
sort of thesis is hey in life everything
you encounter is another one of these
yeah it's another situation where either
courage is needed or Temperance is
needed wisdom or just specifics like you
handle like ideal in business a lot so
you handle this particular situation
let's say terminating an employee this
way and when you handle it this way you
know even though some things are
different that on average that's going
to be the most wise thing and so his
idea is you turn everything into a
principle a way of doing things and
do you does that factor into what you're
saying here with the virtues I think so
absolutely you think about like a
professional sports coach they know just
like a card player set of probabilities
what you do if it's in these different
parameters because again imagine the
football coach who's having to consider
all the possible plays in each situation
they're you're you just don't have the
time or the bandwidth to do that right
especially when your opponent is trying
to speed up the game and misdirect you
so you make the wrong decision or you
make let's make sometimes you're making
a gut decision that's correct sometimes
you're making a conscious decision and
that's what's incorrect but the idea is
you sort of set a
it was funny actually um someone once
criticized uh Franklin Ben Franklin he
had like his 12 virtues again they
fluctuated but he had 12 virtues and
they said it was like he hemmed himself
in in a paddock like a a fence they make
around in a horse uh they would make
around a horse and then he trotted
inside the pack and this was their sort
of condescending intellectual critique
of Ben Franklin but I think that's
actually the perfect way to live like
here's all the boundaries that I have
here's the things that I don't do that I
don't think about that are off the table
for me because I consider them immoral
or unjust or cowardly or stupid or
whatever the thing is and then here's
all the things that I have to worry
about it's a much smaller sphere to
consider and so I I think that's kind of
the idea of Virtues is is to create sort
of a structure that you can live in that
guides you so you're not again winging
it on these critical decisions
um and you know I think about
one of the things I talk about in the
book is this you go but what about me
right or what would happen if right we
ask ours this is how we sort of Psych
ourselves out of doing things that uh
you know don't fit with the code because
we're suddenly considering a bunch of
other stuff that's actually irrelevant
to to like how we've decided to live our
life
the idea of hemming yourself in of
building that offense I think makes a
lot of sense when you think about
virtues in the context of it's not just
that I'm making decisions easier and
then I'm avoiding the mental fatigue of
having to pick clothes and things like
that but that it's about a life well
lived yeah and the idea of well-lived
becomes one of the most important
questions anybody is going to answer in
their life and you know my initial
question for me as I think about okay
what's my answer it's it's really about
suffering
okay and I one of the things that so I
always journal on a guest before they
come in like what was it I liked about
the book the way they're thinking and
you know one of the ideas
that I'm asking myself is how much of
Courage is innate and how much of
Courage is cultural meaning if you
if somebody weren't taught the express
virtue of Courage would they not still
have a sense of revulsion when they were
acting cowardly and I have a feeling
that they would I have a feeling that
nature has given us the virtues from
these are the things that keep you alive
that make you a good contributor to a
social situation and you know these were
the things that increased our likelihood
of surviving and so as I think about
okay there isn't going to be
um just total parity that every society
through all time will have the same
virtues but I have a feeling that a lot
of them are going to rhyme because of
that sort of innate suffering that rises
up uh when you think about
not acting courageously or going you
know always with your emotional whims
and just somehow your life doesn't add
up and you're not able to get where you
want and you see this a lot with you
know people in their 20s are very
impetuous and then as they get older
they think what the [ __ ] am I doing with
my life you know what I mean and and
that impulse to what am I doing with my
life even though it was pleasurable you
know six months ago you weren't even
thinking about it
at some point there's some subconscious
thing that kicks in that just makes you
feel uneasy yeah I mean I think for
almost all of human history courage has
existed as a virtue because Tom bilyu
here announcing my new espanol episodes
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like we wouldn't have survived as a
species without courage right you could
say wisdom or Justice or Temperance
these are I don't want to say sort of uh
Modern Problems but they they matter uh
they matter less primally than just like
can you be brave under pressure under
threat whether it's from a woolly
mammoth or an attacking tribe or
something like that so you know when you
when you study the history of Courage
for most of human history courage meant
like sort of physical courage like
courage Under Fire right
um and it's only somewhat recently in
the last few thousand years that we also
had this better understanding of moral
courage right what one does under
pressure under the threat of a tyrant
you know the pursuing of Truth or of
One's Own sort of way of living or you
know being true to oneself so they're
they're these sort of two components to
courage there's physical courage and
moral courage
but as I studied the literature and I
decided sort of what direction I wanted
to take the book in what really struck
me is that the two things what those two
types of Courage have in common is that
it's about putting your ass on the line
in some way right and I think there is
no such thing as a good life if you
don't put your ass on the line so I
think a person who never risks it who
never puts themselves out there
um even if they're a comforter even if
they're comforted sorry even if they're
comfortable even if all of their needs
are taken care of at the end of the day
they probably have some nagging sense
that more was possible so even in that
sense cowardice sort of dogs there's an
expression like of cowards nothing is
written because they don't do anything
that's notable or memorable right
um it's it's hard to put yourself out
there but on the other side of that risk
is like good stuff dude that really hit
me for some reason like strangely
emotionally uh of cowards nothing is
written there's so many amazing quotes
in your book
um and I want to read one that this one
like stopped me dead in my tracks
um there is no deed in this life so
impossible that you cannot do it your
whole life should be lived as a heroic
deed was that you I can't I didn't
unfortunately okay I didn't write down
whether it was you or somebody else
that's [ __ ] amazing it's a great
quote I loved it he has this beautiful
book called a calendar of wisdom uh
which is like it's like a favorite quote
from him every day and some meditations
on it um was that him speaking through a
character or
that's in a calendar of wisdom okay
um but I think I think that's
a good way of thinking about your life
right which is that
um if you think of your life if you live
your life as a coward it will be a
cowardly unimpressive life but if you
live your life as if it matters right
like
um if you don't believe that you can be
heroic or make a difference or do
anything in this world
you're right in the sense that you will
not be that person right like they talk
about the great man of History Theory
can an individual change the course of
history
well we know for certain is that people
who don't believe in the great man of
History Theory are very unlikely to be
the great man or woman of History right
so like uh change uh greatness success
depends on by definition believing that
you're capable of doing and that you're
willing to do it and so there is a
certain obviously encourage is much more
complicated than that but it starts
there like it starts with if you believe
that nothing matters if you believe that
it's all hopeless that we're all uh you
know uh victims of the system or of
circumstance that it's all about you
know these structures and forces and
that it's impossible and then it doesn't
matter
um you're right
it's a great quote in the book nihilism
is cowardice yes do you remember who
said that General Mattis said cynicism
is coward cynicism thank you and it's
this you talk about nihilism a lot in
the book
but sorry I conflated two things no no I
think they're they're nihilism is just
uh the extreme version of cynicism to me
again if you think that it doesn't
matter if it doesn't count if it's
hopeless
um not only is it unlikely that you'll
ever make a difference or change things
or or have an impact but it's also
that's a wonderfully
safe place to be it's sad right but it's
also freeing because then nothing you do
has any significance uh the stakes are
extremely low
nobody's watching you can't fail you
can't let anyone down there's no
potential to waste or further away and
so I think there is courage just in the
earnestness of
like caring and I think I think you and
I both see this in the stuff that we
talk about like you'll hear from people
who are like oh this is so lame this is
just motivational [ __ ] right like you
know people who look down on people who
are just earnestly trying to get better
and that's not to say that there isn't a
certain amount of cheesiness sometimes
or that it it it's like uh physics or
something you know that's not it's it
it's not as rigorous as this that or the
other but
there is something powerful about
earnestly caring and trying and I
remember Robert Greene uh he wrote this
in one of his books but he talked to me
about it because it sort of encapsulated
my teenagers like I didn't really have
anyone that believed in me when I was
younger and so I didn't really believe
in myself I was a good runner
um but I never tried like I I not only
slacked off in practice I tried to get
away with not practicing I remember I
ran a 502 mile whoa in the middle of my
senior year while slacking off yeah I
was I was good right but I remember
thinking
if I 502 if I stop here
I won't have to feel shitty if
I just sort of shrunk like if I just
shrug my shoulders and go 502 is close
to sub 5. then I'm protected from trying
and failing oh my God you know what I
mean yes I lived my whole life like that
that's a very common idea if you don't
try you can't fail and if you don't put
yourself out there you can't feel like a
piece of [ __ ] if you fall short so
there's real There's real courage in the
earnestness in the effort in trying
um and and I would say as someone who
you know didn't naturally come to
writing or to videos or podcasts or any
of the stuff that I do now public
speaking like it's scary to suck at
something at first do you know what I
mean oh yes and and and like like a lot
of people aren't
able to sit with that so they don't do
it facts dude you literally just
described my 20s I was
I was haunted by the fact that some part
of me knew that I was taking smaller and
smaller jobs because I really wanted the
person I was interviewing with to look
at me and go God you're so smart why are
you applying for this job and to live
for that moment is so foolish but to see
how many years of my life that need to
be thought of as smart right
um because I didn't want to suck at
something I didn't want to be foolish I
didn't want to face the thought that I
may be you know not as smart as I wanted
to be
um and it was just giving me the life
essentially that I deserve based on the
choices that I was making which was one
that you know left me sort of laying
face down on the carpet of my
unfurnished apartment just like
spiraling into darkness when it's harder
too when what you are thinking about
doing is a public-facing thing right
like uh making videos or books or
whatever all the music putting yourself
out there that's like that's the hardest
part right to go out for something and
be rejected for it just as to tell
someone how you feel about them or to
you know decide hey I'm going to quit my
job and move across the country and do
XYZ that's
that makes a person so vulnerable and so
again
the courage to run into a burning
building to save someone or to throw
yourself in front of a bullet or you
know to stare down you know someone
bigger and stronger than you that is
courage and that is what courage has
been for thousands of years but there is
also courage in being yourself and
taking an unconventional path in trying
and failing right and trying and failing
again over and over and over again that
that is this at the core for my
definition of courage is putting your
ass on the line I love that I want to
like really Beat to Death this idea of
earnestness which was one of the the
things that I loved most about the book
is
the acknowledgment of the thing that not
a lot of people put their finger on
which is there's kind of a goofiness and
uncoolness to
[Music]
um
believe in heroism and heroic acts and
it's become like passe and we do take
that cynical look and I love that and I
love some of the stories that you tell
like dude the the movie I'm sure people
have seen 300 about the battle at
thermopoli but the way that you tell it
which by the way this book is be
interesting to see if you agree with
this one of your more poetic was that
intentional I I'm always trying to get
better as I write and uh
I think what I was really trying to do
is focus on story in this book because
for almost all of human history how have
we instilled courage in people it's
through story which actually goes to
what you're just saying about
um the sort of the cynicism so there's a
great line from one of Theodore
Roosevelt's biographers they said you
know Theodore Roosevelt grew up at
theater as a Young Man Theodore
Roosevelt read stories about the great
men and women of history and decided to
be just like them and the way they sort
of phrase it when I heard it the first
time I actually picked up like a hint of
a sneer right like like what a what a
ridiculous person right and that was
kind of the like now we sort of see
Theodore Roosevelt in in sort of 100
years distant in a bunch of different
ways we we knock him for the imperialism
and some of the racism and and things
like that but we also sort of we see him
as an inspirational figure this guy who
sort of conquers his asthma and becomes
a politician we see it we love his
energy and his enthusiasm but at the
time these were like
those that was Prime the primary
criticism of him that he like cared too
much that he was uh he was too energetic
that he was he was a clown right that
like he that they mocked him for his
sincere commitment to these things that
it wasn't serious and dignified like he
was trying too hard right and for an
aristocratic you know young man of
immense means and and privilege that's
like not gentlemanly like to have
ambition and to care and to try
um
but I love that and I love that idea of
like yeah if you read about the people
of history and you don't think I want to
be like them what
that doesn't make you cool that makes
you a loser like by definition to me
right like so I love the idea of like no
I actually like I actually care and I
actually believe in this stuff like
these the the characters in my books are
not like
are not just like words on a page like I
I
I admire and am fascinated with and like
it
these people are swirling around in my
head and my heart and they guide me and
inspire me and challenge me and also
serve as cautionary tales too but just
the idea that like
life has meaning that you matter that
you can make a difference that history
is not just a parade of shitty people
and crimes and awfulness and hypocrites
that we are making progress and that
things are getting better and that it's
getting better because people were
courageously committed to ideas and
ideals and risked themselves and their
reputations to try to make those things
more real I want to get back to 300 but
first I have a quote uh that goes with
exactly what you just said
um which I think is really extraordinary
it's long bear with me this is you
the existential vacuum that began in the
20th century continues to suck us into
its dark maw religion patriotism
industry each day Collective belief in
these pillars of humanity weakens just
look at what we tell ourselves about
history do we choose to see ourselves as
the latest descendants in a long line of
ancestors who have been struggling
valiantly against the odds towards a
better world or are we the bastard
children of irredeemable racists
pillagers and monsters are we the future
of humanity progress or are we the
plague upon this Earth
yeah I mean take someone like Thomas
Jefferson right
um when you really study Thomas
Jefferson he was
awful like he owned not just a few
slaves but a lot of slaves he
impregnated those slaves and therefore
owned his own children which he did not
free from slavery he tricked uh Sally
Hemmings to come to Europe with him
telling him that he would free her when
they got back what she then didn't do
um all of which to say is that there and
it goes without saying that their
relationship was impossibly uh uh
corrupt and broken because he owned her
as a person so you could say that all
their you know sort of interactions are
are forcible and and uh you know consent
is impossible
awful he said you know of slavery he
said I tremble for my country
when I realized that God is just like he
knew that slavery was a horrendous
unspeakable evil and yet did nothing
right he didn't free his slaves
Washington's the only founder that frees
his slaves they all found slavery to be
morally contemptible and challenging and
yet none of them did anything about it
so when you study someone like Thomas
Jefferson who we hold up as this great
American when you really look at it it
like it breaks your heart you're like
[ __ ] this guy right
but also he writes you know we hold
these truths to be self-evident that all
men are created equal so what are you
gonna when you look at someone like
Thomas Jefferson I guess what I'm saying
is the nihilistic view is that all these
people were Hypocrites they all sucked
uh it's all meaningless it was all based
on a lie and I definitely get why there
are activists we're getting a little bit
Injustice I get why there are activists
and historians who dedicate who look so
narrowly at this that it's hard not to
become a cynical nihilist right
um and yet
what Thomas Jefferson writes down is
also what Abraham Lincoln and Frederick
Douglass and Martin Luther King use his
own words to take the country from where
it was in 1776 to where it was in 1865
to where it was in 1965 to where it is
now and so
I guess and I think about this now that
I have kids and I think about this in
this racial Reckoning we're in we have
to decide are we going to take the easy
path out which is to say that's all
hopeless it's all awful it's all fruit
from the poison tree or are we going to
say and and Ralph Ellison says this in
invisible manner just one of the great
uh great novels of the 20th century he
says you know you can love the ideas but
not the men who created the ideas and I
think again it's easy to to dismiss it
all it takes courage to say no like I
actually believe in this and I actually
believe in it more than Thomas Jefferson
did and I believed in it more than the
generation after and after and after and
then I'm going to fight and it's worth
sacrificing for and it's worth
committing to to help make them a little
bit more real
damn I cannot wait to read your book on
Justice sounds like this is going to be
interesting I and I totally agree man
look to me frame of reference is
everything and it is very easy to look
at the past and see only horrible things
and I'm sure if I looked at to bring
this
um back around to the guys at 300 that
if I looked at who they were in real
life I'd be mortified to my [ __ ] core
but there are ideas to your point you
know why the Spartans were so yoked and
and like good at fighting it's because
the Spartans existed as a warrior
culture and then there was basically a
secondary race called the hellitz who
did all the other work right like it was
a slave it was a military slave society
in which slaves did all the work so the
guys could uh train all the time and be
the greatest warriors ever right and so
yeah when you get when you dig into it
you can you can
cut it up in so many pieces that it
becomes impossible to see anything of
any significance or meaning
um
so are you going to do that as an excuse
to not have to care to not have to try
to not have to risk yourself or
are you going to look at the incredible
sacrifice and heroism that these 300
guys end up a bunch of their slaves
marched out and face down probably the
worst odds in the history of warfare and
succeeded
in the sense that they knew they would
die but their objective was to buy time
which they paid for with their lives
dude that that is such a a big idea I've
never heard anybody talk about it
but the way that we slice it up the way
that we look at it is going to determine
what we take from it is going to
determine our inspiration is going to
determine how we act in fact oh God you
say something in the book uh I probably
wrote it down but it would take me too
long to find the idea being that
ultimately your
beliefs inform your behavior and
therefore like what you decide to
believe it was like oh God
your beliefs become your virtue oh I'm
gonna have to [ __ ] look this up can
you Vamp and by his time if you know
what I'm talking about roughly yeah
Peter Thiel talks about effective truths
right so if you don't believe
something's possible it's not possible
of course just because you believe
something is possible doesn't mean that
it is but it starts of course with the
belief
but I thought that idea was really
powerful that what matters are your
behaviors but what is it that gives
birth to your behaviors it's ultimately
your beliefs and as we you know right
now what I feel like we're living
through with social media and the the
way that ideas can spread so quickly is
this becomes a framing device and when
you look at
um there there are like debating tactics
where it's like if you can control the
frame of the argument then you can frame
the argument in a way that you can win
it yeah and so this is this is sort of
the crazy making thing that happens on
the Internet is people can shift the
focus of an argument to something and if
you don't challenge the very sort of
framing of what we're talking about then
you you know you get into something that
isn't productive that doesn't help and
so what you're talking about now with
your 300 example of yes you could look
at that and just be mortified to your
core but then you also miss the
opportunity to look at this other thing
this courageous act this thing that we
should all aspire to we when you take
someone like Winston Churchill right and
it'd be kind of because he's for a long
time been sort of the hero of the 20th
century this is the guy who stares down
the Nazis does he also contribute to a
famine in uh in the Middle East uh does
he uh not support Gandhi uh does is he
uh for much of his career like let's say
opposed to a female suffrage a whole
bunch was he maybe an alcoholic yeah
like all true right
um and so you can focus on that and
decide and you should focus on it in
that in so far it is true and to deny
that it is true is to reject the virtue
of wisdom right so when people go like
the Civil War wasn't about slavery like
that's not what we're talking about you
don't get to stick your head in the sand
and deny that facts are facts but you
have to decide what facts are you going
to take and integrate into your
understanding of the world and what your
imperative as an individual is and so
what I think say Churchill is a
wonderful example of it and I talk about
him in the enter the book he says look
Destiny Taps us on the shoulder and he
says it would be a shame if in the
moment of your potential finest hour
you weren't ready or you rejected it now
were there little moments where he did
reject opportunity to be even greater
than he was absolutely and I think we
should talk about that why was he so
afraid of someone like Gandhi why did he
have regressive beliefs about X Y and Z
and let's also look at the penalties he
paid for those when when Winston
Churchill gets basically kicked out of
public life for like 10 years leading up
to the second world war it's because of
his failures on these issues
um but
when the Nazi Menace is staring him down
when tyranny has overrun Europe and a
generation of British leaders has
appeased it and appeased it and appeased
it uh Churchill says no like Churchill
says like
this isn't right Churchill says you know
I think we should fight to the very end
um his his daughter-in-law asked him and
every time I think about it I get chills
she says like well what do we do if if
they land I remember this quote you know
what do we do if that company says
what's stopping you from going into the
kitchen and grabbing a butcher knife and
I so it was like and taking a few of
these bastards with you yeah like he was
committed to the very end that this was
he knew irredeemable evil when he saw it
and he drew a line which to me is what
courage is about again he's not perfect
there was a bunch of other things he did
wrong there were many moments that the
British Empire when he was in charge of
it did Evil things but when the worst
evil of the 20th century appeared when
Destiny tapped him on the shoulder he
was ready and I think that's what
courage is about now it may be that you
and I don't get enormous moments like
that but we will get the smaller moments
and when I say that like courage is
calling that's what I'm talking about is
that it's always there the opportunity
to be courageous is always there the
stoics say like we don't The Stokes
believed not so much in predestination
but they believe that the vast majority
of our circumstances were out of our
control so Epictetus is born a slave not
as control Marcus cerealis has chosen to
be emperor not as not in his control
this is a high place in a low place but
both of those situations demand courage
in their own way and I think if we
accept that okay the vast majority of
our life is predetermined by
circumstances and evolution and the
moment we're born and all of that great
but what do you do with the little
moments that life offers you do you
think the brave choice or the Cowardly
Choice do you think about do you say
what about me or do you think about so
uh I think a good question is what would
the world look like
everyone
did what I'm about to do right like if
everyone turned away and said
that's gonna cost me too much right we
wouldn't we would not be in a good place
and so I think that's when you decide
how you're going to look at history it's
are you going to be inspired by the
people who stepped up or are you going
to use the failures of history as an
excuse
uh to not have to try
what drives you I think what what drives
me is is trying to figure out the things
that I wish that I was taught uh that I
wish were part of what you're supposed
to learn in elementary school and middle
school and high school you know
um philosophy was supposed to be
historically this they would call it the
guide to the good life right so it's
something we've been thinking about for
a long time but like where is this guide
you know like no one gave it I read a
lot of books in school there were a lot
of you know things that they made us
look at and nowhere did I ever get this
guide and so I think I'm always sort of
searching for for the answer to that
question you know like how does one live
how is one supposed to live what do you
do in the morning what do you do at
night you know how do you find happiness
that you know the answers to these
questions and and so I'm looking for
that personally and then I think
professionally my job is to then share
the answers to those questions as I as I
find them
that's really interesting so especially
now that you're on the bandwagon of
fatherhood yes which I'm very curious to
hear more of your take on that but like
would you ever write like for somebody
in grade school like that manual and I
usually am writing to a younger version
of myself when I'm writing that's one of
the I think you have to as a writer you
have to have some idea who your audience
is like you have to be able to Envision
that person and speak to them and so one
of the people that I'm always trying to
speak to is me whether it's five years
ago or ten years ago or 15 years ago I
don't know if I have enough insight into
where I was at that age that I feel like
I could really speak to to that exactly
but I do love really well done uh
children's books I mean like if you've
ever read The Little Prince there's tons
of lessons in there I think right now
I'm I've still got enough to say to me
just a couple years ago before I can go
back in time quite that far right what
how like the smile that you had on your
face I want to make sure we show that
when I asked you about becoming a father
yeah how has it changed the way that you
think or approach life so my son is 13
months so I don't have a ton of
experience yet uh but I would say I'll
give you three three lessons I say so
number one is it becomes much easier to
say no to things because you realize we
seem to have a limitless capacity to
steal time from ourselves right you know
and the stoics talk about this all the
time you know like we would go you would
be uh incensed if one of your neighbors
encroached onto your physical property
but if one of your neighbors came over
and just talked your ear off for an hour
you would find it rude to be like get
out of here I don't want to speak with
you right do you know what I mean like
so we protect our physical space much
more than we protect our time even
though physical space can be regained
and time can never be regained and so
one of the things that it's like even
I've been married uh for a while and
I've been with my wife for a long time I
even found that I I was comfortable
stealing time from her and from our
relationship in a way that I'm not
comfortable stealing time from a child
who I've promised as much of my time as
I can too right right so it becomes
easier to say no to in in essential
things that's number one number two I
would say is that especially when my son
was first born was sort of learning that
like parenting is just actually just
being there right like just physically
in the space so almost nothing else in
my life was would be like would sitting
in a chair not doing anything be doing
something right right and so it's it's
really slowed me down in a very good way
right that like my job is to sit here
while he plays around on the floor doing
whatever he wants I don't need to be as
purpose oriented and that's been a
really good lesson for me because like
why is that a good lesson because if you
think that action is the end-all be-all
you end up doing action for the sake
sake of doing action right so I I feel
like I should always be doing and doing
and doing but sometimes you're just
supposed to be and oftentimes just sort
of being there and sitting there and
being still is where really great
insights come from and this is also
where happiness comes from you know it's
hard to be happy and appreciate and feel
gratitude when you're just moving all
the time my therapist said to me one
time she's like you got to remember it's
it's human being not human doing right
and and the a kid is a really great
reminder of the the the the the being
part because they're so always in the
present moment right and then I think
the last lesson is just sort of watching
someone experience sort of
just complete joy and again presentness
is also a reminder that like things
don't need to be as T I'm a very intense
person and although that intensity is
responsible for a lot of My Success it's
also responsible for my unpleasant
moments right it's responsible for
anguish that I feel or insecurity that I
feel and that the need to be busy all
the time and so I think just watching
you know the Simple Pleasures that he
can enjoy I think lets me feel a bit
more gratitude and appreciation and then
lets me focus on what's really essential
all right well now let's ask a really
interesting question at least I'm deeply
fascinated by this so now let's imagine
you wake up tomorrow and you don't have
kids what of those things would actually
carry forward as transformative elements
for you I would say in a way there I
would carry forward all of them but
having this having this person this
living thing that you're responsible for
um keeps those lessons top of mind
because there's real consequences for it
right it's a reminder that you can't do
everything all at once and you do have
to prioritize there's someone who will
be upset who will be hurt who will
suffer for this rather than you just
deferring those costs into the future
which is what I did before I had a son
and and what I think most people allow
themselves to do all the time you know
we know objectively that we're going to
die we don't have unlimited amounts of
time but we still spend it as if we have
unlimited amounts of time because the
consequences are so deferred into the
future that we can get away with it I
also intellectually knew all those three
things that I told you before but it's
been good it's been the hardest thing
that I've ever done and and I think it's
good to challenge yourself that way all
right so abstract it from kids for a
second okay you're you're you're a very
methodical thinker so what is the Matrix
by which you make a decision for how to
spend your time or even what to strive
towards look I struggled with the time
thing before I had a kid so I'm all my
instinct is is I heard a great line from
Austin Cleon and I think he got it from
somewhere else he was saying you know
that the job of or the mindset of an
entrepreneur a creative person is that
you basically say yes to everything
until you can get to a position where
you can say no but it's really hard to
know that you've gotten to that position
right especially because you work
yourself up into a state I'll give you
another actually analogy a friend of
mine his name is Dr Jonathan fader he's
a sports psychologist he works with the
New York Giants and the New York Mets
and he was saying that in baseball uh
particularly players from like the
Dominican Republic they have this saying
they said you don't walk off the island
so basically the only way you can get
out of poverty or out of this place is
by swinging right you can only hit your
way off the island right and so on the
one hand what that does is it creates
really aggressive players they swing at
every pitch they can but then as soon as
you make it in the major leagues it's
all about bad discipline right you can't
swing at every pitch because the pitches
are better because if you miss it causes
problems for your team and so it's this
balance right once you've arrived the
thing that got you there is now in some
ways your worst enemy and so that's
something that I have always struggled
with is like I've always been the person
that just said yes to everything early
on in my career you know it was like I
can do all of it at the same time I
don't care if you think it's humanly
impossible I will outwork you I will I
will make it possible and so there was a
time where I don't think I ever ended
one of the opportunities that I had so I
was just adding them on top and on top
and I never hit a wall like I just never
hit it and so always saying yes always
saying yes that became who I was and now
as I've as I've achieved a certain level
of success and what I've done has gotten
harder and harder now it's all about
protecting the space that I need to do
that work I think just the idea of
needing to make those hard choices is
knowing what's important what's not
important what I'm trying to accomplish
not only have I struggled with that
already in my life but then having a kid
makes the stakes of that hire but then
it's also just a learning experience
there's a concept in perennial seller
which truly haunts me okay and is is
clearly the sign of the thing that I
struggle with along these lines which
was nothing is destroyed more great
artists than the thought that they can
do two mutually exclusive things at the
same time yes I butchered the no no
right you get the idea and you've said
that of your Consulting business you
feel like all you do is untangle
people's like mess of things that are
often conflicting that they want to do
what what is it about that problem and
how do you help people through it well I
think what I what I'm saying is that
oftentimes people go okay here's really
what I want to do and this is what I'm
trying to accomplish and then they see
all these other things that other people
are doing and then they they kind of see
that as like a grab bag and they're like
and I want a little of this and a little
of this and a little of this and I want
it all at the same time that's not
really possible you know you can't play
live sports at the same time you got to
pick one you gotta specialize maybe you
can do two but you probably can't do
five right you can't be a classical
musician and a rock star you know and
this and this all at the same time so
it's about sort of picking your lane and
then knowing that some
some goals are mutually exclusive the
question I ask clients the most is like
what does success look like for you on
this project and I get them to really
describe it to me and let's say there's
more than one thing in there I go now if
you can only pick one of those things
and the other ones didn't happen which
one would you pick and I'm trying to get
them to sift through some of that
conflict so we can really hone in on
what we're trying to do and oftentimes
like where ego comes in is like we've
got the things that impress other people
and then the real meaningful impact that
we're trying to have and oftentimes I'm
not saying that the the status things
aren't nice and they're not they're not
impressive and they're not cool but
we've got to make sure that they're not
coming at the expense of those other
things right I love that notion of you
know asking yourself what success looks
like for you and having that Clarity and
how important is that Clarity do you
think for people that want to be
successful like how much of this is you
start with a goal that is abundantly
clear and then you create a path as
think one of the things that has really
helped me make some of the decisions we
were talking about earlier is what is
like an ideal day of your life look like
like maybe not right now but like what
do you want a day in your life to look
like and so if if that day is like look
I'm the kind of person I love going to
an office I love lots of responsibility
I love lots of pressure I thrive in that
environment well then great you know
that that's where you want it for me
when I think about like the high-powered
executive who's who's who who an entire
company is resting and falling on I
think how does that person have time to
do any creative long-term thinking I
don't think that they do and so I had to
realize that oh these two paths because
I was on two paths I was a writer and a
researcher and then also I had I was at
a big company that they were mutually
exclusive that one was coming at the
cost of the other and I tried to do both
for a long time I I at one point I
stupidly doubled down on the one that I
didn't want and I realized it occurred
to me one day I was I was actually in La
there was some chaos at American Apparel
and so I'd gotten called back in and
they were paying me great money and I it
was like you know 9 A.M I'd just gone
for a run I'm sitting down I was writing
and I looked at my watch and I was like
oh I have to be at the office like if
I'm not at the office like people are
going to be mad they're going to wonder
what they're doing right and that was
like but my dream is not going into an
office the most important thing for me
is to have the freedom to go where my
day takes me especially creatively I'm
on a path that's taking me further away
from what I want my ideal day to look
like that's not success you know and so
and Tim Ferriss has talked about this is
you know some people it's like my
um the dream life is being on a beach in
Bali well what does that actually cost
could you have that now do you have to
have a life that you don't like so that
at the end of it potentially you're
lucky enough to go there or could you
find a way to get that now I'm trying to
think about this on a regular basis is
my life resembling what those days are
supposed to look like and if I have too
many days in a row that don't resemble
what I want my day to look like I go I'm
I'm I'm having the opposite of success
you know what I mean what do you do very
tactically in that moment is it
journaling what does that look like so I
do Journal uh every morning and every
night so part of my journaling is just
like a detailing of events like not for
history but just so I'm forced to
recount what happened and actually think
about it you know the Stokes would say
prepare for the day ahead and then
you're supposed to reflect on the day
that just passed and so that sort of
process of preparing in the morning and
reviewing in the evening allows me to
never get too far from where I I want to
be you know what I mean like I'm never
gonna I'm never gonna wake up five years
from now hopefully five years from now
and go this is just really not the life
that I wanted because I'm I'm doing a
regular series of check-ins
so going back to what you said about you
know for a brief moment I actually
doubled down on the thing that I didn't
want yeah which I totally get and
understand in a way that I can't even
convey to you
why do you think people have a hard time
identifying what they really want and
like what can people do to not find
themselves in that situation this is a
very first world problem but I would say
one of the hardest things to do
in the world is to turn down money right
so like I was in a conference room and
someone said you know look we need you
to come back but we know you have this
writing thing this is when you're
quitting yeah or I'd already basically
left I was I was like sort of remote and
and then and didn't have a day-to-day
role and they said look we we need you
to come back you know this is going to
be a tough you know series of months but
I think you can make a contribution we
need you to come back and I said well
look you know I've got all this stuff
and they they said well what would it
cost to get you to come back and I threw
out what I thought was a high number and
they said done and so in that moment I
was like well that's a lot of money if
it would it would be irresponsible to
say no to this right and so I was
telling myself one that I could do it
all at the same time and then two that
like you know I I wanted this money like
you know and and it would it would seem
dumb to say no to it I do with lots of
successful like entrepreneurs and and
athletes and one of the things they're
always talking about they're like oh I
just I love books I love writing I would
love to be able to do that and so one of
the things that struck me in that period
where I was unhappy was it was like I
get to do this thing that other people
tell me they wish they could do and here
I am taking a bunch of money to do the
thing that they say they don't like
doing you know this is this doesn't make
any sense at all and so I had to back
myself out of that situation I you know
I left some money on the table as a
result and it was it
wasn't a fun experience but it was just
I think in that moment I wasn't thinking
what do I want my life to look like
what's the most important thing to me I
was thinking how many zeros are in this
check right and that
is not a great uh way to make decisions
in your life because what do people do
with their money they buy Freedom right
but oftentimes they give up freedom to
get money and so that it was like oh I
could just skip those steps and stay
where I am and be very happy
that was so interesting man so yes I
think that that's a an eternal thing
that people do with their their work
they're giving up their freedom in order
to buy some sort of future Freedom which
may or may not ever come by the way
right
um because what it what if you do that
then you get hit by a bus yeah or the
money never comes sure which is maybe
even more likely right right it just
always slipping into the future the
Eternal future so my question is though
and there's there's two things really so
one how did you deal with whatever the
reverse of buyers remorse is right where
you give the money back and then that
next time that you want to do something
and realize I can't because I don't have
the money but off I just stuck it out
and then yeah we'll start there it's not
like uh I was choosing between you know
the poor house and you know paying for
my groceries or something right like
this was this was extra one of the
pivotal conversations in my life was
with Tim Ferriss when I was starting my
company and he said you know Ryan what
do you do with your money and um I was
like what do you mean he's like what do
you what do you spend your money on
and I was like nothing like I just I I
just put it in a bank account and then I
try to manage it responsibly I live
pretty reasonably and and uh I I try to
save my money and whatever so he's like
okay so why are you going out and trying
to get more and more if you don't need
it and and that was really helpful to me
so now uh
when I'm thinking about clients uh like
what my test is at Brass check is we go
like okay is this work we're going to be
proud of or is this giving us money that
we need to do something we will be proud
of that test is really really important
a lot of times people are saying yes to
money not because hey if I do this then
I can pour it into the movie project
that everything depends on it's like I
need this so I can lease a nicer car
right one one concept I'm assuming it
comes from stock philosophy and I can't
remember if I read it in perennial
seller or egos the enemy or both perhaps
but what would a person more humble than
me learn from this moment yeah that's
something I think it's incredibly
powerful walk people through what that
means what you're trying to get to and
what the result is of approaching things
like that well I think there's this cool
exercise uh from Adam Smith who was The
Economist uh he he wrote The Wealth of
Nations but he also wrote a book called
the theory of moral sentiments which is
this sort of brilliant book about
philosophy fee and kind of like why we
do the right thing basically and one of
the things he was talking about is he
was like you should judge all your
actions he should you should subject it
he said to the indifferent spectator
test which is like what if there was a
totally impartial person who you didn't
know who's just standing there watching
you
what would they think of this you know
how would they judge what's happening
and that's a way to sort of step out
from your own logic your own impulses
your own natural feelings and sort of
Judge you know if you're not religious
you're not like what would Jesus do
you're like what would some random guy
think of this and if it doesn't pass his
test it's probably not a good thing to
do right and so I think that's that's
the test I go is like what would a
person who isn't so caught up in this
who whose identity isn't on the line how
would they react to this rude remark or
how would they react to this lowball
offer they would not be nearly so caught
up in it it wouldn't threaten them the
way that I'm feeling that right now so
I'm going to borrow a little bit of
their objectivity and I'm going to try
to I'm going to incorporate it into my
reaction here in the way that therapy is
about questioning our thoughts
philosophy is giving us the tools to In
the Heat of the Moment you know Victor
Frankel would talk about how you know
there's this between stimulus and
response there's like a moment and
that's where we get to choose who we're
going to be and I think philosophy is
about that moment there's a difference
between just sort of rushing headlong
and doing something recklessly versus
being brave walk us through because
you're for people that haven't yet read
it one of the interesting things is you
really address it from like every
conceivable angle like here is courage
in a balanced way here is courage when
it becomes Reckless here is like hiding
from Courage and that one I thought was
really interesting well it's funny
because I'm now in the middle of writing
the temperance book and I don't know I
when I'm writing I'm always tweaking
like up till the end so there may be
stuff that I've moved uh before it went
to final print I don't remember exactly
but I'm thinking about this a lot now
because actually for the virtue of
moderation Aristotle uses courage as the
example he says there's a golden mean so
he says that think of a spectrum and on
one end of the spectrum you have
cowardice you might think that on the
other end of the spectrum is courage
actually no courage is in the middle
between cowardice and recklessness
and so when we talk about both crazy to
think these guys lived thousands of
years ago I mean this yeah that's some
insightful [ __ ] but and not only is he
talking about that in theory he's also
the philosophy instructor of Alexander
the Great who is like having to think
about that in a very real way right so
when we think of philosophy sometimes we
think of these like caricatures of our
University professors or something like
people who had no experience in real
life I mean she's talking about courage
like as he's tutoring one of the bravest
most brilliant strategically bold
military commanders to ever walk the
earth
um but I think that's a really important
way of thinking about it because
courage is not just doing whatever you
want taking any risk in fact there's a
great Spartan story about this one
Spartan in like the heat of battle he
rips off his armor and he defeats all
these guys like one-on-one it's like the
bravest thing that anyone had ever seen
but the the Spartan Elders when he gets
back from Battle instead of like
throwing him a parade they find him they
find him for uh endangering uh an
important Spartan asset himself right
and so I love that right so uh and
actually as I was researching the book I
talked to a friend of mine who is an
instructor at the Naval Academy and he
was saying he's like you know jumping on
a grenade is not brave
unless you're doing it to protect
someone else right so it's like if you
just jump on the grenade because you're
like a grenade like and you're just
instinctually Brave you're actually
being Reckless which is a vice right
you've you've just killed yourself for
zero return on that investment now if
you jump on the grenade and it protects
a room full of innocent people that's an
incredibly that's not just courageous
that's heroic it's selfless but if you
just do it
it's selfish uh if the only person that
infects is you so
um when we think about uh boldness you
know there's this expression fortune
favors the Bold when we think about
boldness it's within again those
limitations of the other virtues uh if
the fight doesn't need to happen
it's not courageous to start it if
you don't need to go all in on this hand
going all in on it is not courageous
it's stupid and Reckless and so deciding
what battles need to be fought what
risks need to be taken how risk can be
taken off the table if it's not
necessary this is an important part of
of Courage it's not just I don't feel
fear if you don't feel fear you are not
thinking it was interesting reading the
book I was like
it's so inspiring and it makes you want
to be a better person which is like the
highest praise I can give a book uh
and one of the notes that I took was
sometimes though being lacking courage
or being Reckless it's not clear which
is which like it's not clear like wait
if I do this am I being uh wise because
to push forward would be Reckless or am
I not doing this because I'm afraid and
not doing this is cowardice and I was
like sometimes a lack of Courage is just
straight confusion well there's a story
about Theodore Roosevelt it's not in the
book but I was reading on his research
in the book basically there's some sort
of inter-party split over like
corruption or something early on in his
career and a bunch of his friends all
leave the Republican party in disgust
and anger overly and this is so far
distant that there's no connection to
what Republicans Or democrats are today
so let's put politics aside but
basically they all leave and Theodore
Roosevelt stays now is this cowardice or
is it courageous because he wouldn't
have been able to become the Republican
president like 10 or 15 years later had
he left in a huff right and another good
example of this is like what if uh your
job uh is asking you to do something
unethical or morally uh frustrating or
you're just not cool with it
um but by storming out in disgust or
whatever you are then leaving your
family destitute I had um Alexander
vinman on my podcast a few uh weeks ago
he's the um The Whistleblower who got
Trump impeached again put politics aside
but he sees something he says something
and I talked to him about it and I said
like you know were you worried about
like how do I pay for my daughter's
college education and he said these are
kind of the things that you think about
right we often self-deter we go so well
uh I don't want to do it because it
would be irresponsible for the following
reason so it there I don't want to make
it seem like it's clear-cut because it's
not it's [ __ ] really hard and it's
not like a hell yes hell no thing like
you just know and it it's it's often
very morally ambiguous it's very morally
ambiguous and challenging and if you're
not torn about it it's probably uh
probably not super high stakes situation
but there's a moment I do talk about in
the book where Theodore Roosevelt and I
this is a good test that I like Theodore
Roosevelt is considering asking Booker T
Washington to have dinner with him at
the White House the first
African-American to be invited to dine
at the White House as a guest of the
president now it's not fair to say he's
the first African-American to eat at the
White House plenty of them had to eat at
the White House they were just never
allowed out to be a guest of honor so
this is a major political statement uh
in the early 1900s and
Theodore Roosevelt is considering doing
it and then he thinks about why no one
has done it before him which is
the southern states won't like it his
Southern relatives won't like it the
newspapers will make it a thing it could
cost him a close election
and then he says in a letter to a friend
he was like precisely because I
hesitated
I felt discussed with myself
and I knew that I had to do it so often
I find that the thing you're hesitating
on doing the considerations
are usually very helpful in in reminding
you of what actually matters but if
you're not thinking about this and
you're just plunging ahead you know
you're probably also going to charge off
a cliff from
at some point yeah man this stuff gets
so interesting and to your point about
Alexander the Great like I mean and even
just backing it off just that it will
play out in your life whether it's
something big or small philosophy really
is about a life well lived and in the
book I can't remember if it's you that
said it or you're quoting somebody else
we all know there's something worse than
death
and when you create that haddock for
yourself and you have the fence of you
know what my virtues are and how I'm
going to behave you know like what
things you would actually be prepared to
die for where your sort of line of
recklessness is and you [ __ ] better
Define that before you find yourself in
that situation and in the book you give
an example where I'm like I don't know
if that was Reckless or if I'm like
really inspired and the example is the
guy in the senate in ancient Rome and he
is he's expressly told if you speak
against me it's not going to end well
for you yeah he does it anyway and I'll
I'll leave you to fill in the the gaps
in the story so I think are you saying
that you think I was saying he was
Reckless I'm saying I don't know if I'm
I'm blown away that he had the balls to
say what he thought was true because for
him to lie because he tells the guy just
don't ask if you don't ask I won't say
anything but if you ask I'm gonna tell
the truth right and I was like I'm
impressed and at the same time like if
you know people get killed for this [ __ ]
I don't know what I would have done in
that situation yeah so this is uh the
senator is named helvidius and I
actually talk about in my book lives of
the Stokes too but he's one of those the
stoic uh senators in in uh the sort of
middle Roman period and and Rome has had
this series of really bad corrupt awful
Emperors and they're in the middle of
another one and you know the job of the
Senate was sort of to advise and consult
as it is now
um and a lot of people take that to mean
don't tell the boss what he doesn't want
to hear right don't uh you know the nail
that stands up gets hammered down don't
say anything controversial just wait
this out uh and then hopefully things
will get better and he basically says
I'm not going to do that like uh my job
is to do is to say what I think is true
and if if uh you know not going to go
around screaming uh and and sort of
being Reckless but like if you ask me a
question I'm going to give you the
answer uh that uh that I think is true
and he's willing to die over that
principle
um which is I think uh incredible
um and and again is that to say that you
should die over every you know little
thing no but I think it is to say what
are you willing to risk for the
principles that you have I remember a
friend of mine is is a senator and I
remember uh he uh because it'll get
controversial get into it but he's
taking some you know political stand and
I emailed them and I said
congratulations like it's really
impressive and then I said I said you
know what is the point of having six
years of guaranteed job security if
you're not going to use it to say what
you think
is true if you're not going to vote
according to what you think is right but
it is really interesting like you see
academics with tenure lifelong
employment guarantees you see senators
or congressmen you and I don't have
two we we always are sympathetic to
congressmen because and and women
because you know they're they're always
up for reelection I mean you and I don't
have two years of guaranteed job
security very few people do so I'm
actually not sympathetic to that at all
like you have two years or six years of
guaranteed job security and you're not
going to do what you think is right
because you might lose your job over it
I mean your job is to do what you think
is right what did you get into politics
for uh if not to do that this isn't like
uh this isn't this is a a profession of
service right and so
I do think these these situations can be
seen from different angles but I think
generally
um the idea of like I'm gonna do my job
come what may uh Soldier knitson has a
line it says let evil enter the world
but not through me [ __ ] dude he blows me
away that [ __ ] guy
like obviously you've read
um the gulag archipelago
oh wow like would you be willing to go
to the gulag for what you believe you
know that's that's that's a real
would you
would Ryan holiday depends on what it is
right that that's the
that's the question but I remember you
and I we talked like a year ago and we
were talking about something that was
like politically charged controversial
and you said something that stuck with
me that I've thought about since you
said
you know
um
I I thought what I thought and then I
found myself not saying it because I
knew people would be upset by it and
then I realized that uh to not say what
I think is true for business reasons is
uh not a good way to live let me feel
like a coward yeah and and I think
that's
um I think that's a really good test
because you know you watch people
accumulate power or influence or a
platform and then what do they use it
for they use it for the perpetuation and
expansion of those same things I I'll
get emails from people I'll say
something that's political or whatever
and they'll and why did you do this you
had to know you would you know piss
people off and go
what do you think I've built this
platform for like I didn't write these
books and build this email list in this
YouTube following on this Instagram
following whatever to then censor myself
to not
lose those people I mean the whole point
of having it is to use it to say what I
think is true that is the job right the
job of a writer or an artist or a
thought leader whatever you want to call
it is to
explore and articulate what they think
is true and believe to be important so
if you don't do that because you see the
numbers and the numbers tell you that it
drives unsubscribes or unfollows or
angry comments
you're not just being a coward but
you're betraying
the whole reason for doing it like
there's a there's a exchange with Lyndon
Johnson as he's uh pushing through civil
rights which a whole bunch of other
people were much more
fervently in favor of then he I mean
he's a southern Senator he'd done
basically nothing on civil rights most
of his career
um but what Johnson knew was how to get
stuff done right Johnson knew how to get
stuff done so after the assassination of
Kennedy he decides like in uh memory of
Kennedy he's going to ram this thing
through and he thinks he can do it and I
think he does come to earnestly believe
in the ideas even though he'd been very
slow to adopt them and perfectly fine to
you know experience the benefits of
segregated Society for most of his life
but
some Aid comes to him and says you know
this is going to be politically
disastrous you're gonna are you sure you
want to do this blah blah and he says
what the he says ah what the hell is the
presidency for right like if the perp
you you work your whole life as he did
successive offices offices offices you
slave away an obscurity you finally get
to wield the levers of power and it's
really important that people realize
this when you get that when the the the
game is in your hands like when you're
in control your impulse is not now
I'm gonna really do things my way
because if they were you probably
wouldn't have gotten to that point you
would have done this earlier right so
the impulse is not now that I have power
I'm going to use it to do the things
that I believe in that that would be the
courage thing the the this is where the
cowardice comes in and you go ah
but you'll lose
the midterms right you'll not get
reelected your donors will be upset the
newspapers will criticize you and I
think that's what Theodore Roosevelt was
saying too about inviting Booker T
Washington he's like what the what
[ __ ] good is it to be the president
of the United States of America if I
can't invite who I want to invite to
dinner right not only is that morally
repugnant it's it's pointless right but
this is where we get people you you
watch you know powerful people in all
different facets of life not say or do
what they think is right and I've been
guilty of in my own life I'm sure you
have to
because you have your considerations
yes and there's a couple things in there
so one the Theodore Roosevelt thing I
find really interesting because of that
like you listen to that gut instinct
right it's the same obviously on a much
smaller scale but it's the same feeling
that I had of no one
in the outside world knew that I was
starting to feel like a coward right but
I knew and I didn't want to feel that
way and that very thing because I'm
always trying to get people to
understand the whole purpose of life is
to feel good about yourself when you're
by yourself yes and so whether the
outside world thinks you're amazing if
you're at home contemplating suicide you
have [ __ ] all like you have absolutely
nothing and if the whole world thinks
you're an [ __ ] but you really believe
to the core of your being that you stood
up for the right thing
you're still going to feel good it
doesn't mean that you're not going to
face hardships it doesn't mean you're
not going to wonder how am I going to
pay for my kids college but man you have
something that's really really powerful
and learning to listen to that to
translate the feeling into an idea that
you can articulate I think is very
important and something a lot of people
never take the time to do and so they
don't understand their own emotions
think that's really powerful and then
you know just getting to the point where
you recognize the complexity of things
so for instance with um
you and I might be in slightly different
positions maybe it'll be interesting to
say this out loud and see how you think
about it so
I'm not a writer and the only reason
that I stepped in front of the camera
was one I wanted to impact people's
lives positively obviously
and then two I want to build the next
Disney so I want to build a brand that
is bigger than me when we started we
were like what do we call this thing
everybody was like Bill you Studios all
day long the show should be called the
Tom Billy show and I was like [ __ ] that
no one is going to tattoo Tom Bilu on
themselves other than my wife who
strangely wants to and I absolutely
refuse uh but I knew that they could
feel a sense of ownership over impact
Theory so all of that to say I can
damage my own brand sure by
saying things to not feel like a coward
so now I'm in this like sort of doubly
complex thing of I'm only in front of
the camera to positively impact people's
lives
the more that I can be almost
transparent in that interaction and just
give them something that they can own
that will you know give them the ideas
they need the ideas they don't need me
and so I'm like God like am I just gonna
trip myself up by going up but because I
know that all of this is for naught if I
don't
feel good about who I am if I don't feel
that I've contributed in a meaningful
way if I don't feel that I've done
something honorable is probably the word
I would use with my life and so
that feeling that's why you know one of
the big questions I read in your book is
how much of this is just inescapable
that we're all like if you fail to be
courageous you will suffer no matter
what the world thinks they could all be
like maybe they you get celebrated for
being the biggest hero in the world but
inside you know it wasn't you like the
Don Draper effect if you watch Mad Men
where he like took a hero's identity and
so people are constantly like you know
thank you for your service and he knows
that he was a total coward
and
ah just like that's so gnarly and I just
cannot when this is this is where that
stoic idea of sometimes it's like hey
are you speaking up about current events
or it's like hey suddenly you know
you've witnessed some Calamity and
you're the only person who can speak up
about it right so there's a certain
amount of sort of Randomness to it they
call this uh moral luck right like were
you of age born in this country when uh
they were deciding who was going to land
at Normandy you and I were not so that
wasn't an opportunity for us to be
courageous and uh you know or were you
there when the police were brutalizing
someone and you had the courage to take
out your camera and film it despite
their threatening you know to arrest you
if you continue or what so there's a
certain amount of luck
um and if you want to call it luck in
the kind of destiny that that is chosen
for us but then there's also the sort of
little moments of like are you living up
to what you believe in are you using the
assets that you have
to be the person that you know you want
to be and I think it is important right
like
what good is Success if you have to
censor yourself right so you you have
the next Disney but you knew you had to
compromise on all the things that were
important to you to get there
look at Eric victory yeah
um the Bible talks about the the man who
uh ganeth the whole world but loses his
soul right and I think that's sadly very
common
um
and I think this is particularly common
in politics in business uh in the
creative Fields where
to
make your way up through the system you
have to show that you're not
a threat
right to show you're not a threat yeah
so
um okay in the beginning of the pandemic
there was a captain uh I think I forget
in his first name but it's Captain
Crozier he's like the head of the USS
Theodore Roosevelt
um and it pulls into New York Harbor
there's a covet Outbreak on the ship and
she doesn't feel like people are taking
it seriously that the people inside the
Navy are taking it seriously and so he
has a a moral and he has a moral
quandary do I continue to do I just
follow my orders and let the people I'm
entrusted with leading suffer as a
result or do I take more Desperate
Measures that will involve repercussions
for me professionally and speak up about
it and he speaks up about it I think he
like he sees a reporter I forget the
specifics but he ends up basically
losing uh his job as the job he wanted
his whole life to be the captain of an
aircraft carrier and he loses his job
over what he believed was the right
thing
but I think it's important to zoom back
and go you don't like people are like oh
this is reckless let's say or something
um you don't become the captain of an
aircraft carrier if you're not a pretty
good rule follower right like uh think
of all the years he had to spend in the
Navy following uh the rules uh putting
in his time not being disruptive not
being like for the entrepreneurs have a
different
career trajectory than most almost any
other profession right where like you're
an outsider who starts their own thing
so from the beginning there was courage
but what about like Tim Cook right
people like Tim Cook's not as courageous
and groundbreaking as Steve Jobs well if
he was do you think he would have lasted
very long like they they that doesn't
work so there's different
different career paths for different
people but the question is when you find
yourself in that situation due to the
courageous thing or the Cowardly when it
really matters right
um and I think the sad truth is a lot of
times we don't you have about a five
second window in which you can move from
idea to action before your brain kicks
into full gear
and sabotages any change in Behavior
it's your job to learn how to move from
those ideas that could change everything
into acting on them