Kind: captions
Language: en
I'm hoping that they find it useful the
same way they seem to have found the
first one I'm embarrassed work actually
hurts me actually both of them hurt me I
would say
because I'm very hurt I'm a very
destroyed person in many ways and so I
feel unworthy Unworthy of what
you name it
in the book you encourage people to
think from an evolutionary perspective
which I think is incredibly important
and I think what you offer people is one
you make we all struggle with our own
internal demons and you allow people to
see how that's a heroic Endeavor maybe
the ultimate heroic Endeavor to conquer
that inside of yourself and then going
back to the beginning of identity being
a function of behavior by helping people
begin to identify as the hero engaging
in relatively straightforward behaviors
like cleaning your room or liking the
new book making an area beautiful
refusing to give in to resentment aim at
one thing which [ __ ] was one of my
favorite parts of the book and see how
extraordinarily good you can get at that
like when I think about something is
you're going to aim at something
it's like otherwise your life is
meaningless well what should you aim at
well I don't know well pick something
pick something aim at it as you move
toward it you'll get wiser then maybe
your aim will change that's okay but at
least it'll change in an informed way
it's like discipline yourself in one
dimension
see what happens
well that's exciting
and I think that's something that's open
for everyone
you can do that I shouldn't say that
because I don't believe that I think you
can find yourself in a situation that's
so dire that you don't there's no escape
from it
but that doesn't matter because there's
still this is the hero myth might not be
the best we have might not always work
but it's still the best we have
and the fact that it might not work
doesn't mean we should throw it away
it's still the best we have
I mean everyone dies and so we fail in
some sense
the fact that the symphony ends doesn't
mean that it wasn't worth listening to
yeah when you put that in an
evolutionary context and you acknowledge
that people are compelled by biology to
strive they're compelled by biology to
progress they're compelled by biology to
um be courageous that they will be
rewarded for being courageous
neurochemically they will be punished
for being a coward neurochemically and
yeah well think about you know the thing
about that biological explanation too is
that we've been social for a very long
time we've been social for so long that
our social nature is programmed into our
biology
and so you'll be punished if you're not
useful to other people yeah
Yeah by your conscience because you're a
social creature
and the question is well how could you
be most here's another question that
starts to what Verge on the religious
what does the most useful person look
like well who is everyone hoping they'll
meet
and that's a genuine question I'm like
and that's the ideal the ideal is the
person everyone's hoping they'll meet
that's Christ in in the Christian
culture psychologically speaking
independent of any religious claims
so that's these these this is this is I
suppose the essential idea of the
archetype from the jungian perspective
we have the we have the image of an
ideal
and because it is the ultimate ideal it
has a religious element it's compelling
it's a judge why is it a judge well if
you fall short of the ideal your
conscience punishes you so it's a judge
and it's merciful well why because if
you act out the ideal then your life
improves
you know what I said well the question
what is the relationship between these
images of the psyche and reality
I I don't know the answer to that
I don't know where
the archetype Shades into
reality
it depends to some degree on how you
define reality
and you know this is I've been people
don't like that
statement
but
when when you're asking questions that
are deep enough you start to have to ask
what do you mean by true for example
what do you mean by real because the
questions you ask get so deep that
they're of the same kind as the question
what is real or what is true
you know if think of it this way reality
is what we adapt to
by definition
that's reasonable if you're a darwinian
you have to say that's actually as far
as you can go reality is that Which
shapes us
you can't get a better handle on reality
than that well when you make a picture
of objective reality it's not the same
as that it's a different picture and
it's not obvious which one should play
Trump
now the hero myth as far as I can tell
is an evolutionary artifact
and that means that for human beings
that the hero image is the path of
of optimal adaptation
does that reflect reality well it does
insofar as reality has selected that
well does that mean that reality is a
story
because the hero myth is a story or at
least that's one of the things it is
does it mean that reality has a
narrative aspect well it does insofar as
we act things out
does that mean that reality is
ultimately a story well I don't know but
the answer isn't obviously no
yeah
reading the book
Beyond order
there was
a part in there that struck me as this
is going to be the new Battleground that
Jordan is going to be fighting on do you
have
a sense of
um
what in the book is gonna trigger people
no
I mean I didn't think that the Lobster
in the last book was going to be so
Hillary I mean I thought it was I
thought it was really cool it's like oh
my God
serotonin mediates dominance in lobsters
and people how ancient how remarkable
but Well that took off in all sorts of
directions you know people made fun of
it it's like well you can make fun of
350 million years of evolutionary
history if you want
you can put your social constructionism
up against 350 million years of
evolutionary history good luck to you
I didn't think it was like and you know
the idea that I was trying to insist
that because lobsters live in
hierarchies that
hierarchies are the source of all moral
value you know that's
I was trying to insist that hierarchies
are in are so inevitable that you see
nervous systems adapting to them across
virtually every level of animal
and why well because some things are
valuable
and since and within any given domain of
value some valuable things are more
valuable than other things and so you
have a hierarchy there's no avoiding it
as long as you need something as long as
there's scarcity
a hierarchy is inevitable
yeah nobody cares how many big pens you
have
it's because they're not scarce
so you can't have status because you
have 200 of them but as soon as there's
scarcity there's a hierarchy and there's
always scarcity of one form or another
no matter how rich you get you know if
you're if you have a hundred million
dollars Picasso paintings are still
scarce
yeah the uh the pushback on the The
Lobster thing falls into two things for
me one I don't understand why people
look for a reason not to listen to
somebody which to me most people coming
after you for that one just they didn't
want you to be right or to be heard and
so they went after something that they
thought they could mimify and and shut
down on and then I understand that like
I understand that I it's obvious why
people are looking for a reason not to
listen to someone it's like how God damn
many people can you listen to there's
nine billion of them you know so you
have to not listen to almost everyone
and so you'll fall for any excuse and
sometimes that's not so good you know
because you have a bias that prejudices
you against a Viewpoint that you
actually need that's that's a problem
but the phenomenon itself like you know
you you mentioned sorry to bring this up
again but because it's germane and and
relevant
someone said something disparaging about
me and they were on your staff it's like
well you have lots of options for guests
you're looking for no
you're always looking for no because you
can only say yes to a very limited
number of things
so
that's another reason we have to be very
careful about our prejudices because
we need them you know to
I don't mean Prejudice in that obviously
in this inappropriate social sense but
Jesus we have to Shield ourselves from
an excess of information we're very
limited capacity processors
no question
I I don't understand though I don't
understand really
and it's really killing me I think I
might might mean that literally
I don't understand why I'm so
controversial
I can't figure that out it's very
distressing to me
you want me to take a stab at it
sure good metaphor all right so my gut
instinct in terms of why a certain type
of person uh responds negatively to you
is
when you think of a person as a blank
slate and that we all have this
Collective responsibility to make sure
that everybody ends up the same then you
saying some people are better at
something than others already is feels
judgmental and so it is oh yes it is for
sure and but when you have a
collectivist view and you believe that
everyone should have equal outcome which
by the way I think everybody yourself
included like if only right like that
would be amazing like if everybody could
live truly in Harmony and that didn't
violate principles of just the human
animal which is why I always remind
people to remember you're having a
biological experience but you say things
that are they violate a deeply
compassionate person's desire to take
care of everybody the sort of No Child
Left Behind type thing and when you
insist on in your own life like I'm only
going to say that which is true and I'm
certainly not going to let somebody
force me to say something I don't
believe is true so now with that and by
the way all of that and this is a key
thing I think you have to understand
you're fighting with a level of
intensity that makes sense when you
realize your obsession with what
happened in the 20th century the gulag
archipelago what happened there uh
obviously Nazi Germany Mouse China like
the number of people that have been
killed in these essentially social
experiments so you have this deep
intense thing trying to get people to
understand like hierarchies are real
there's no escaping them not everybody
is as good as everybody else at
everything and by the way you have to
shoulder responsibility and
that's where people are like you just to
them I cannot and before I say what they
think I will reiterate you have changed
my life forever and for the better I
will forever be grateful to the things
that you continue to put out into the
world and I missed you horribly as a
thought leader during 2020 of all years
to be on a Jordan Peterson diet I was
not happy about that
but what they think of is
that you're being mean for the sake of
being mean that you're not trying to
help them see you cannot pretend reality
isn't reality in pretending that the
dragon is not there the dragon does not
go away the dragon grows more powerful
more likely to devour you and your
family and so yeah I'm smaller
they don't see that and so that's why my
when I see people attack you I'm like
Jesus Christ how many times does he have
to say this is about a balance between
Order and Chaos that you need both of
these things that you have to show the
responsibility because that is what
reality demands that you're in you're
nested in an evolutionary context there
are things like hierarchies that will
play out in uh in the the body Inception
exactly and so you may not want to feel
bad when you walk in the room and are
worse at something than everybody else
but you're going to you may not want to
feel bad when you're rejected but you're
going to you may not want to feel bad
because you're just lazing around your
house and not doing anything but you're
going to and you have peered into enough
of human nature to recognize hey there
are just certain truisms you've now
given us 24 of the I forget how many
were originally in the core article 49
or whatever so 42 42 okay we've got 24
answer to the life the universe and
everything
right is that also's number
so oh my God that's perfect actually uh
it it is this incredible Thing Once you
break free from ideology and that's
where again this is one of the rules in
Beyond order
not to fall prey to ideology this is
where I thought you were going in the
beginning with identity I thought you
were going to say
identity has become pathological because
it has become it's been simplified you
talk about this and Beyond order once
you simplify something and this is how
an ideologue gets you they simplify it
they make it very understandable it
becomes very clear who's in and who's
out you can reward and punish based on
that people are grabbing these
unnegotiated
self-determined pieces of identity that
don't necessarily bring value to the
larger World which will create
dissonance in their own life because
they've got all this substructure
running tradable value
you know what I mean it's like I'm not
saying they're like your race I suppose
is a value
but it's not a tradable value and your
gender and your sex the same thing it's
like I guess it's partly because there's
no scarcity
you know it's like we've got enough
white people being white doesn't buy you
anything
so
and I I'm not saying that with any
pleasure
that's what I think people miss this is
why I think people come after you
they don't recognize that you're not
saying it
you're not relishing in this you want
people to be happy and I I'm always so
confused Jordan I don't know why you
remain as vulnerable and open as you are
after the time saying I was like what
the [ __ ] you sounded so kind open
compassionate after what four years of
you know some percentage of the world
relentlessly slandering you and
obviously you get people that cheer you
on probably way more people that cheer
you on the doe but you still remain
vulnerable which is [ __ ] incredible
but the fact that they don't recognize
that you're trying to
help like I could get it if they said
hey look I disagree with you maybe on
this side or the other but maybe they do
recognize that you know there's a lot of
cynicism about the help and I I can't
understand why you why you cynical about
help unless you weren't that help
weren't that pleased about the idea of
help
you know like all these deplorables that
I'm helping these angry young men
you know they don't deserve help
well I don't think that
I don't know anyone that doesn't deserve
help
you know there's this idea in the New
Testament that you should love your
enemies
it's like I
why would you do that well
it'd be better if they weren't
your enemies
and their unnecessary suffering doesn't
help
it's not helpful
it's not like you don't you know anyone
with any sense anyone who's human
is liable to take pleasure and vengeance
or even in but you know when people go
after the journalists that have gone
after me I don't take any pleasure in
that
I don't sit back at my home and rub my
hands and think
you know
you got what was coming to you I do
think sometimes you've got what was
coming to you but I think of that more
like watching someone in the road you
know they're in the road and they have
their back turned and the truck runs
over them it's like well you were in the
road and there was a truck
and
so you got what was coming to you
because you were on the road and there
was a truck but I don't take any
pleasure in it
I don't see that it's helpful
what do you want people to get out of
Beyond order it it is extraordinarily
well thought through it is very well
laid out each sentence Stacks like a
brick upon the next I wouldn't advise I
don't know if you feel differently but I
wouldn't advise people read them out of
order it's literally this very careful
case being made that taken in totality
is breath
I think you can read them in either
order
I tried maybe maybe they're better read
in order but but
um
I think that if you read the second one
first then it would color your vision of
the first one I mean I mean the rules
the I think you're right 12 rules for
life and Beyond order it doesn't matter
they're yin and yang well you mean the
rules themselves the rules themselves
just it Stacks so well so otherwise it
wouldn't be a book okay I mean each the
thing about writing a book is that
you're outside of time and space in
relationship with the book because
chapter one comes before chapter 12 but
not when you're writing it you can go
back and modify chapter one because of
chapter 12. I did try to tie them
together so that they make a book you
know and they one builds upon another
that's like that's the musical element
of it as well the re recurrent themes
I'm glad you liked it see I can't tell I
can't evaluate it
um I'm hoping that it it's of the same
level of quality that the first book was
and I'm not making any claims saying
that about the level of quality of the
first book I'm just that was as good as
I could do and I wrote the second one
under unbelievable duress and so I can't
tell if it's you know whether that was
uh
curse or what certainly a curse no doubt
about that I don't know how it impacted
the book though it's hard to say what do
I want people to get out of it well
I'm hoping that they find it useful the
same way they seem to have found the
first one I mean look actually hurts me
actually both of them hurt me I would
say
because
I'm ashamed you know of what's happened
to me
what do you mean and
they're books about life and my life is
I'm very hurt I'm a very destroyed
person in many ways and so I feel
unworthy
Unworthy of what
oh
you name it
I hope people find it useful
you know
I hope it alleviates some unnecessary
suffering
that's the goal here's how I read your
books and everything that you've put out
into the world
the people that should write the
instruction manual are the people that
have struggled and
in your suffering you have been able to
piece together useful information which
is the barometer by which I judge a
book's value for sure
the reason people flock to your
lectures they buy your book is you have
made in modern times the single most
coherent and useful instruction manual
for life
period so the I fear that the Brokenness
that you feel the heartache that you
feel translates into something usable
that couldn't be written by somebody
that hadn't gone through what you've
gone through
well I would like to believe that was
true you know there's a bit too much
self-justification in it for my taste
but
I thought the other day I'd probably do
this too and
I would I have to record an announcement
for this book because it's coming out on
Tuesday I thought the best announcement
would be just to thank people for
all of their kind attention
I'm very fortunate
in that regard
I get letters from people all the time
that
they open up their hearts
you know it's really something
but I am somewhat non-plussed let's say
for all this
work I'm pretty broken
in general or just In This Moment
don't know
I think in general
man well I will say this as somebody
whose life you have touched
and the thing I want you to recognize in
me as I imagine countless other people
want you to recognize in them
more than warm wishes is
I have put to use the things that you're
teaching and they have made my life
better and they have made the lives of
those around me better
and what is up my friend Tom bilyu here
and I have a big question to ask you how
would you rate your level of personal
discipline on a scale of one to ten if
your answer is anything less than a ten
I've got something cool for you and let
me tell you right now discipline by its
very nature means compelling yourself to
do difficult things that are stressful
boring which is what kills most people
or possibly scary or even painful now
here is the thing achieving huge goals
and stretching to reach your potential
requires you to do those challenging
stressful things and to stick with them
even when it gets boring and it will get
boring building your levels of personal
discipline is not easy but let me tell
you it pays off in fact I will tell you
you're never going to achieve anything
meaningful unless you develop discipline
all right I've just released a class
from Impact Theory university called how
to build Ironclad discipline that
teaches you the process of building
yourself up in this area so that you can
push yourself to do the hard things that
greatness is going to require of you
right click the link on the screen
register for this class right now and
let's get to work I will see you inside
this Workshop from Impact Theory
University until then my friends be
legendary peace out
man it is really heartbreaking to see
you
um
go through what you're going through now
and I I certainly get it
um
you know and I don't know you well
enough to offer you any sort of familial
consolation so I will just say that what
you do matters probably more than you
think it does certainly as much as you
think it does and I I had never met you
through 2020 and I started reaching out
to people that we both know
asking about you because I I believe
that the world needs the insights that
you uniquely have coming from your
background of Mythology and
understanding what is deeply ingrained
in the human psyche from an
evolutionarily shaped
perspective
and that nobody is putting it together
the way that you're putting it together
and the fact that you've been
you know I mean hopefully it's it's
small in comparison to the people that
are supporting you but Jesus like I
don't I know I would not put up with the
amount of [ __ ] that you've put up with
and the fact that I think the individual
is the only way to approach any systemic
problem like you just have to deal with
the individuals and then from there it
will Echo out into society and so the
fact that that's your approach
um
I kept telling people we need Jordan
Peterson right now and
I'm so grateful you're back
and I know this book will be
very successful because well I'm glad
you liked it I'm glad you liked it
because like I said I it's really hard
for me to evaluate it you know sometimes
I
well I have every possible thought that
you could have about it you know
sometimes I read it and I think oh that
seemed to have turned out pretty good
and other times I Think Jesus I've said
this 50 times already and yeah I'm all
over the place I can't
I think that happens it happens when you
write a book you get so because I you
know if when you read someone else's
book you can kind of tell if the ideas
are original at least insofar as you're
concerned
well I can't tell because I these are my
ideas well not all of them obviously but
their ideas I'm at least deeply familiar
with so I can't tell to what degree it's
original none of it and so
all right and it's it's also I suppose
I'm quite apprehensive about its release
in some sense because I've set myself up
in an impossible
second act
you know because the first book was so
insanely popular I think it's six
million copies now in in all the
languages it's been published in
so
um
that's impossible that never happens
right it's it's certainly it's like
winning the lottery
it's probably less probable than winning
the lottery in fact I'm virtually
certain that it's less probable than
winning the lottery
and to to imagine doing that twice is
well that's just it happens but it's
highly improbable
anyways it's going to all come and then
uh you know I'm in a different space
than I was when I released this first
book so
this is compared to all this is going to
be compared to all my electronic avatars
which are busily working out there in
the world I think there's more of me
outside of me now than there is inside
of me
weirdly enough
that's another phenomenon that I can't
really get my hand my my my mind around
you know the power of YouTube Jesus
that's quite the technology
yeah when I put those first videos up
you know I was this was bothering me
this piece of legislation and for a
variety of reasons some of which we've
discussed I talked to my wife and my son
sort of casually I said well I'm going
to make these videos see what happens
and
like
famous last words
yeah man look it's resonated it will
continue to resonate you are you have an
extraordinary ability to translate what
people are feeling into the actions they
need to take to get out of it it is not
a mistake that you are a very practiced
clinical psychologist that is able to
scale what you were doing one-on-one now
to the many it's extraordinary and I
think it's really had an impact on
society my fantasy I love being a
clinician
it was a great job
you know I really loved it there was
nothing better than intense
conversations about how to make things
better when both Partners in the
conversation are fully committed to that
it's such fun to
produce incremental improvements
sometimes more than incremental you know
collaboratively there's nothing better
than that I love doing my lecture tour
because it was that on a large scale it
was I talked to Dave Rubin about that
this week because of course he was long
on the tour
and it was such it was so
perfect
to be talking to people about making
things better and to have everyone at
least in that moment fully on board with
the idea you couldn't you couldn't ask
for anything better than that it was
great and to have the support I've had
from people it just stuns me you know I
think it's actually traumatic
to have that much support
that's interesting why traumatic
it's not easy to know what to do with
you know the cheers of a million people
it's overwhelming it's dangerous
dangerous because it can
see your identity or this is probably
not directly relevant but I don't know
you know I've thought a lot about Hitler
you know was it his arrogance or his
humility that led him to be the Savior
so-called of Germany he had millions of
people cheering for him
how could you not think you were right
how could you possibly think you weren't
right
and so there's danger in that
you know I don't think I've
I don't think I've unfairly benefited
from it
money success Fame all that stuff is
irrelevant what matters is how you think
about yourself when you're by yourself
and I want to know what you think about
in terms of
self-identity how we construct our sense
of self and then how we leverage that to
move through the world in a way that
makes sense
so
identity to me is something that's
practical
it's it's
your identity is a uh it's like a
dramatic role
that you play out in the world
and while playing that out it has to
furnish you with a life
and what that means is that it has to be
it means that it has to be negotiated
with other people
when you're a very young child
and you first start to play with who you
are
you live in a fantasy world and
according to some developmental
psychologists at least particularly this
is grounded in the theories of Piaget
that very young children two or three
are quite egocentric in their play they
play according to their own rules and so
they're not social yet until they're
three or four
um which means that they have their own
goals in mind
and then they erect a little fictional
world around those goals and then they
play out the role within that fictional
world and that's pretend play and when
they get to be about three or four and
they start playing with other kids they
have to bring their worlds together and
negotiate because both children have to
want to play
and so that means identity has to expand
Beyond its egocentric focus and
increasingly be negotiated in the social
world
I studied developmental psychology for a
long time especially in relate in
relationship to the regulation of
aggression and most children learn to
regulate their aggression between the
ages of two and four now for example for
for instance there's a subset of
children mostly male who are very
aggressive at the age of two
comparatively speaking they bite kick
fight hit and steal that's the
definition of of aggressive and
almost all those children are socialized
out of that by the time they're four
although a small proportion aren't and
they tend to be long-term anti-social
children and then criminal adults it's
very very difficult for that to be
rectified if it isn't rectified by four
what happens with most children is they
learn to move beyond their egocentric
presuppositions and include other
children in the play and so they start
to negotiate the roles and identity is a
sophisticated identity is a negotiated
role
and so it's not appropriate for
negotiated with who with everyone
with everyone and of course you know
this is the case because if you if you
well first of all if you're a child and
you want friends then you can't insist
that only your game be played
so I'll give you an example there's been
observational studies of children in
playgrounds so imagine there's a group
of children together let's say they're
six or seven years old and they're
playing helicopter so they've got their
erasers out and they're buzzing around
in the helicopters okay so they've
already established the ground rules
they've got together and they laid out
the drama they say well let's play
helicopter and maybe there's four or
five suggestions but the group the group
uh um
develops a consensus that helicopters
the fun game and let's make our erasers
into helicopters I don't have an eraser
Well you can use your pencil and it can
be a long helicopter and so everybody
gets a role and everybody's happy about
it otherwise play won't continue right
everybody has to be happy or play won't
continue
and so then the the little drama
organizes itself and the kids play
helicopter and there's consequences of
that that play out like a story and then
maybe another kid comes along and he's
got an eraser and a pencil in his bag
and he wants to play helicopter too and
if he's a socially sophisticated kid
he'll hang around the outside of the
Little Game and Watch and then he'll
take out his eraser and maybe start
making buzzing noises with it and when
when he can see that there's an opening
in the play situation he'll swoop in and
maybe he'll get integrated it's like
when you're at a cocktail party and you
hear a conversation and you're hovering
around the edge you wait for an opening
and then you say something that's
germane to the topic and if you're
sophisticated enough and the people are
friendly enough then it'll open and
you'll be allowed in
now even popular kids often get rebuffed
when they try to enter an already
structured game unpopular kids don't
watch what's going on and then they come
along and try to impose their game on
the entire group and then they have a
tantrum if they don't get let in
and so that's a good example of how
identity is negotiated at the earliest
stages
now that feels to me um something it
feels very different than what I would
think of as identity so I'm going to try
to put this in context of what I see as
the major movements of your work and
what makes you so powerful tell me where
I go astray so I look at your two books
and and I'm literally just paraphrasing
from what you said that they're
basically the yin and yang so you have
Chaos on one hand and you have order on
the other both will tend towards tyranny
and as far as I can tell this is why I
do not understand why people are pushing
back on you why there's so much bizarre
backlash is the moral of your story is
hey everybody guess what you need to
find this balance between the two if you
only exist in the creative potential it
ends up being all chaos all the time if
you only exist in the conservatism the
things that are already there and
working they will tend towards tyranny
solidify and cease to be useful and die
and so now it's this game and you do
this brilliant explanation of what
happens in a city that shows exactly
this with artists and if you can walk us
through that and tell me if if the
identity of the artist if that's what
you're trying to get at with identity
because I I'm understanding what you're
saying in terms of okay in that moment
we're negotiating but there's a grander
sense of who we become that is seems to
me to be a negotiation with the world so
collectively everybody else but also in
negotiation with how I want to feel
about myself when I'm alone and the
things that I think are right the things
that I think are wrong okay well okay
well that's very complicated so I'll
walk it through so as you pointed out
I'm gonna hold up these books so this is
the new book
Beyond order
and it does concentrate on pathologies
of structure and the previous book which
is 12 rules for life and antidote to
chaos and the the underlying
presupposition there is that in our
phenomenological landscape so that's the
world as we experience it complete with
emotions and motivations and dreams and
so the full range of Human Experience
including the subjective and the
objective let's say can broadly be
broken into two domains and one is the
domain of things that are beyond our
grasp and reach and that's the unknown
the unknown emerges when the unknown
emerges you tend to experience anxiety
and then there's the the known and I
Define the known very specifically and
and very carefully the known is the
place you are
when what you're doing presult produces
the results you want
and I say want because that brings
motivation and emotion into the game so
you're motivated to pursue something you
pursue it and what you want happens not
only do you get what you want but you
get validation for the structure that
governs your perceptions and your
actions now if you you know imagine that
you're um you know you're lonely
and you approach a young woman in a in a
social situation
um attempting to make some contact with
her
um you you want to alleviate your
loneliness and so you hope you make a
good impression and you tell a joke
let's say in a relatively awkward Manner
and you get rebuffed then you feel you
you you're no longer where you control
you're no longer where you exercise
control and that brings up all sorts of
specters and immediately it's like well
why were you rebuffed well maybe all
women are uh to be despised that's one
Theory maybe there's something deeply
wrong with you maybe you're having an
off day maybe it wasn't a very good joke
and so when you don't get what you want
then a landscape of question emerge
questions emerge and those questions can
resonate through different levels of
your identity from the trivial oh I told
the joke wrong to the profound there's
nothing desirable about me and I'll be
alone for the rest of my life
now you asked about identity and I used
the example of a child's game but I
could go through an identity and so I do
this particularly in maps of meaning and
so for example let's say I'm sitting
typing
okay we could decompose my identity so
at the highest level of resolution I'm
moving my fingers
and so that could be my identity I'm the
thing that moves its fingers and then
slightly at a slightly broader level
than that I'm typing words
and at a broader level I'm typing
phrases and thinking them up and then
sentences and then paragraphs and then
chapters and then let's say full papers
or books that that's that's a productive
unit so I'm the author of a book or the
author of a paper that's an identity but
then that's nested inside for me it
would be nested inside being a clinical
psychologist being a professor being a
good citizen and then that's nested in
some inside something that's even
broader than that and I would say that
that's nested inside
a cultural heroism and I don't mean that
specific to me I mean that for everyone
that's the outermost level whether
you're playing out the role of hero or
adversaries say that's that's the
highest possible level of identity
that's the level at which fundamental
morality is adjudicated and there isn't
really anything beyond outside that is
it's beyond us it's the Transcendent
itself and you're all of those at any
one time
you're all of those levels of identity
but those are all practical right so
those are the rules that you're playing
in the world all of those are a
consequence of who you are but in
interplay like in this situation with
the child all of that's negotiated with
other people
and so if you have a functional identity
you see if you have a functional
identity when you act it out in the
world
then you get what you want and need
and if an identity doesn't do that well
then you should
you either retool or your identity or
you retool the world
your conception of the world
well
if you're retooling your conception of
the world then you're retooling yourself
no you can actually I mean what a
revolutionary does is try to bring the
world into alignment with literary
changes yes literally well and we all do
that to some degree because we are
practical Engineers you know I mean
not only do we perceive the world
but we also interact with it so that it
does manifest itself in accordance with
our desires there's limits obviously to
how far you can go or how far you should
go with that
you know and
um what are the limits well there's
practical limits nature won't do what
you want it to unless you're very
sophisticated in your in your
application of your knowledge and other
people will object
so now you might say well you should
Forge forward regardless of their
objection and you know there are
circumstances under which that's true
but generally speaking that's not a very
good idea it certainly doesn't make you
popular as a child and so that brings up
one other issue I would also say and
this I developed this idea quite a bit
in
the new book
you go from egocentrism as a child you
have to go through this period where
you're socialized as a Child and
Adolescent and that really means that
you allow your identity to be molded and
shaped by the group and you know you
think about how important peers friends
and peers are to Children and
adolescents you know your mother will
say when you're a teenager well if
Johnny jumped off the bridge would you
too
and you say well no but the real answer
is well probably if all your friends are
there taunting you you would in fact
jump off the bridge and not only that
generally speaking you should
because it's your Duty it's your
developmental Duty as a child and a
teenager
to take your
your isolated self and turn it into us a
functioning social unit
now you could say well do you Peterson
wants everybody to be a functional
social unit a robot you know a cog in
the wheel
and I would say well that that isn't
where development stops
it has to go through that period before
you can emerge as a as a genuine
individual which means you have to know
the rules of the game before you can
break them
but not being able to abide by the rules
is not anything like being a genuine
creative individual those are not the
same thing and there's plenty of attempt
to confuse the two things because it's
much better if you can't follow the
rules to view yourself as a uh
avant-garde revolutionary that has a
failure
and it's not like I don't know that that
social molding crushes
obviously it crushes and everyone feels
that these are existential problems
everyone deals with the tyranny of
culture
and the fact that
it does want you to be a certain way and
not other ways and those ways might not
be in keeping with your with your the
deepest elements of your nature well
tough luck for you you have because
you're also the beneficiary of culture
and so you have to offer it your pound
of Flesh now you shouldn't do that at
the expense of your soul but you
shouldn't stay an immature child other
either
okay so this notion of identity that
we're being fed is very very it's very
thin what are we being fed be very
specific
well there is the idea for example that
your identity is whatever you say it is
and that everyone else has to go along
with that
no that isn't how it works partly
because
no one even knows how to go along with
it
like let's say just for example that
your uh gender non-binary
okay
what am I supposed to do
about that
man I don't know I hardly know what to
do if the rules are already there so
let's say I grow up I want to being a
heterosexual male
I want to find a woman
fall in love with her
raise a family
have children have grandchildren that's
a game I know the rules to it not well
because everyone's a failure at that you
know it's very difficult but at least
you kind of know what the the goal is
and so does the person you're with well
you leap out of that which is already
terribly difficult you leap out of that
into completely unknown territory saying
um ah
that I'm presenting yourself as
something other than those categories
leaves everyone around you and you
completely bereft of Direction
let me put it what do you do words that
I get from
um your material so what I heard you
just say tell me if I'm wrong is part of
the negotiation that we do from the time
we are little kids and figuring out that
play we're up on the bridge we jump
maybe because we want to you know fit in
with our peer group
um
it there is a sense of order to that now
you've been very careful and it will
drive me crazy if people respond to this
interview as if you have not already
Illustrated that it is the balance
between two opposing forces but so we
need enough order so that somebody can
find their way through the world and
that many I think a big part of the
reason that your work has resonated so
profoundly with people is there excuse
me they are left in a world where they
don't know how to
move forward in a way that serves them
spiritually practically as well for sure
and so hey everybody both of those both
of those practically Shades into
spiritually As you move up into the
broader reaches of identity
you know and look this this see one of
the things I really laid this out in
maps of meaning
it took me a long time to understand
that belief regulated emotion
so what happens is that if you act out
your identity if you act out your
beliefs in the world and what you want
doesn't happen
what happens is that your body defaults
into emergency preparation for action
and the reason for that is you've
wandered too far away from the campfire
and now you're in the forest and maybe
you're naked
and so what do you do then and the
answer is well you don't know what to do
so what do you do when you don't want
know what to do and the answer is you
prepare to do everything
and the problem with that is that it's
unbelievably draining
psychophysiologically
like it hurts you
and there's there's an immense
physiological literature detailing
the the cost of of exactly that kind of
response
and so people need people and animals
they people stay where what they do has
the results they want that's partly why
you want to be around people who share
your cultural presuppositions is because
you know that for example even in small
ways let's say you're a country music
aficionado
and you're hanging around with your
cowboy-hatted buddies and you throw on a
tape and everyone says great Tunes man
and you you know you're happy about that
but you know you throw on a piece by
tchaikowski and you're you're in a
different subculture and who the hell
are you and people the people in your
group will say man who listens to music
like that and like that's a trivial
example in some sense but I believe it's
one that everyone can resonate to we
like we it's very hard on us not to be
where we know what we know that what we
want is going to happen we hate that
we hate that and no wonder
so and then you know there are there are
varying degrees of that obviously you
can really be where you don't know
what's going to happen or you can only
be there to some degree but by and large
by and large we're conservative
creatures even if we're liberal and
temperament there's not we can't
tolerate that much uncertainty and you
might ask well why and the answer is
well because you can be hurt
pain you can be damaged you can become
intolerably anxious and you can die
so it's no wonder you're sensitive we're
very sensitive to negative emotion
and so our identities rate functional
identity regulates your emotion but you
do that in concert with other people in
the first chapter of the new book beyond
order
the rule is uh don't casually denigrate
social institutions or creative
achievement that's that balance again
um
I make the case that
most of your sanity
is socially distributed
and what I mean by that is well let's
say that you know how to behave you're
well socialized you can play with others
now I said already in this conversation
if you didn't learn to play with others
between the time you were two and four
you will never learn
and psychologists have beat their heads
against the wall trying to rehabilitate
anti-social children they can't do it
after the age of four
is that because areas of the brain just
don't develop
well it seems to be partly because the
kids fall farther and farther behind so
let's say you make the leap from
egocentric dependence on your mother at
two and three to immersion in a peer
group well then then you you pick peers
that are at your same development level
and you chase each other up the
developmental ladder and the longer
you're out of that the farther you fall
behind
and so you know kids five-year-old kids
might come across another five-year-old
kid who tends to cry too much if they
don't get their way and they'll say we
don't want to play with the baby and
what they're saying is we have to find
someone who's at our developmental level
shares our developmental Horizons so
that we can mutually scaffold our
further development now they're not
going to say that obviously but that's
the situation and kids test each other
out when they first meet so do adults
game game game game game can you play
are you playing at the same level as me
I'm playing my game at the level that
will further my development
can you play along with me if not well
maybe you're lower in status and I can
pull you up as a mentor maybe you're
higher in status and I can learn from
you but if you're a peer we can play
together anyways if you're acceptable to
your peers
and you behave well they'll accept you
and then they tell you all the time if
you're acting appropriately you know if
your jokes are funny if you're
dominating the conversation if you're
bringing something of value to the table
and all you have to do is pay attention
to the social cues and you'll keep
yourself regulated
okay I want to dive in here and I'm
going to see if I'm tracking all of this
because I'm I'm putting this in a larger
context of this really matters and it
applies directly to something that's
happening in the world it seems to me
that you don't dive into things unless
they have real relevance so is it fair
to Define identity as
the self-narrative that emerges from a
nearly infinite number of interactions
with other people and nature itself
well I I would say yes but that gets to
the point where it's so broad it's
almost it it starts to lack definition
so I can take it finer than that I I'm
trying to sort of find the borders and
then then I will work in okay so if
we're if we still remain true at that
point
um then having in the book you walk
through a lot of some of the people that
you've done psychoanalysis with and so
we get a lot of insights into the actual
people that you're dealing with and how
people can begin to tell themselves a
narrative that is very dysfunctional and
you help them out I don't want to say
easily because that that sounds like it
cheapens it but pretty straightforward
in helping them reframe and framing is
something I'm obsessed with and so our
identity is based on this it's a
self-narrative that we tell ourselves
based on the interactions we have with
other people and nature such that we
begin to solidify a set of behaviors
that make sense for us based on the
goals that we want to achieve and where
we're trying to go am I still good
yes well
you improved your definition by adding
the behavior element because I would say
the fundamental element of identity is
what you act out on top of that there's
the story that you tell do I have to be
consciously aware of it well you're
consciously aware of some of it not of
other elements of it
you can't be consciously aware of
everything you do and the Consciousness
unconscious alike make up my identity as
you define it
your identity is the story you tell
about your actions in the world but it's
also your actions in the world
okay now why why does
my identity and I assume as I understand
it why does my identity as I understand
it matter to the course of my life
because it's the it's the structure of
the it's it's the structure from which
the plans that you implement in the
world originates
and you're always acting in the world
you have problems to solve all the time
and you have to solve you have you have
to solve
there's all sorts of problems you have
to solve to stay alive and you have to
solve them for today but you have to
solve them in a way that works for today
that doesn't screw up tomorrow too bad
and leaves next week intact and next
month and next year and so there's a
Continuum of you so that's another see
that's the other reason why
your identity can't just be you
because or how you feel right now
because you're not only who you are
right now and how you feel right now
you're this strange entity that exists
right now but that already existed in
the past and that is going to repeat
itself into the future and so you're
actually a community of individuals
stretched out across time and the plans
that you implement have to be beneficial
for that entire community of individuals
and it's going to be the case that there
isn't much difference between you acting
properly with regards to your extended
temporal self and you acting properly in
relationship to other people
that's interesting so you're stuck with
Society just because you know that
there's a future you're stuck with
Society even if you're solipsistic
right if you think you're the only
conscious Consciousness that there is
there's still the fact that you
have duration across time and that you
know you have to take into account
what the consequence for your actions is
going to be on the 50 year old Tom and
the 80 year old Tom
and so
now here's a question
do you think that there's something that
has pathologized the creation of useful
identities in today's culture
I think each person can judge that for
themselves to some degree I mean the
more functional your identity the better
regulated your emotion the more positive
emotion the less negative emotion
certainly negative emotion doesn't rise
to an intolerable level if you're
fortunate your identity is well
constructed I think that any insistence
that identity is something other than
a pragmatic set of actions let's say
that Orient you properly in the world
is
sufficiently sparse so that it isn't
going to solve the problem that has the
problems that have to be solved so I
might insist I'm whoever I think I am at
the moment and if you were polite you
would go along with that and to some
degree I would be right we do that when
we allow people to save face
but if I'm right we go along with their
pre presuppositions presumptions we
don't call them on their mischief
and a certain amount of that's polite
but that doesn't alleviate the necessity
for me of adopting a role that other
people find valuable otherwise what the
hell do I have to trade
and you might say well why should I have
to trade well
you if you can live all by yourself then
you don't have to trade but if you can't
you have to bring something of value to
the table and you can't insist on its
value
humans are not intended to decline
decline is hugely painful because
happiness comes from progress
unhappiness comes from regress and when
you feel that something is harder than
it used to be so it's interesting you
know you see this the decline in the
fluid intelligence curve we just talked
about if you're really a striver and
that's what I'm working with I'm working
with people want to make the most with
their lives and if you look if you never
do anything with your life you're not
going to know what's over you're not
going to have this big crisis at the end
of your life because you never did
anything and I was like I watched a lot
of TV awesome it's like I can still do
that don't you think their whole life is
a crisis not really no no no not really
no no no no it's yeah I know for sure I
mean well here's the thing
it depends on what you mean by happiness
and what a good life is you know I want
my life as a striver but I also
recognize that it's not normal in many
ways to strive and not to strive to the
extent that you have but is that what
you mean by it's not normal yeah and it
creates problems I mean you you you
Reign hell on yourself yep when you're
actually doing the stuff that you've
done and there's a lot of ways you could
have had a much easier life a much more
relaxing life a life
yeah for sure so that's all I mean it's
not a very profound point in that way
but when I you know when I was when
things were going poorly and I was
deeply unhappy because I was in a state
of regress my wife said
you're unhappy you just need to quit and
I said that's insane
I mean like one can't just walk away but
of course
and she said yes you can absolutely you
can do anything you want I said we'll be
poor she said we're already poor
it's like you know how do you know you
know it's you know multiplying by zero
is still zero and uh and so we did we
just we we bailed you know we went to we
left Barcelona we moved to Boca Raton
Florida where nobody knew us I took a
pretty easy teaching job and I started
studying by correspondence at night
nobody knew I was doing it she had a
minimum wage job she spoke very poor
English had not graduated from high
school and so was learning English and
making you know six bucks an hour or
whatever it was and I was getting paid
to teach the French horn wall secretly
working on my bachelor's degree at night
to build my to to rebuild the person
that I was and then
finished that went on to and started my
PhD which is what I really thought I
needed to do and that took me a little I
came here to Los Angeles as a matter of
fact the study of the Rand graduate
school in Santa Monica and then I
learned a new trade I learned I actually
learned who I was as a person again for
the first time but it was like four
years of you know it was weird I
couldn't I remember trying to sign a
check during that time and I couldn't
replicate my own signature
and it turns out that that's actually
quite frequent when people were in this
period of liminality between faces of
their life that their handwriting will
change what yeah yeah it's actually a
common occurrence I didn't know it's
like I'm trying to check for the bank
sorry Mr Brooks this is not the right
signature is it is it because there's a
subconscious part of you that's like I'm
not that person anymore it's I don't
it's it's not well understood but
there's a the neurophysiology of a lot
of this stuff is we're just starting to
understand there's no doubt something
that where these things are connected
where your sense of yourself is somehow
connected to you know these motor skills
in a particular way I couldn't replicate
my own signature sufficiently I got like
rejected by the bank for cashing a check
into my own account at one point I'm
like my my early dementia early stage
something what's going on here and what
it was was I was in this profound state
of liminality which in retrospect was
this just fertile period you know I tell
the story in the book
is a place that you and I both know as
Pacific Northwest guys there's a place
called Lincoln city in Oregon that's
you're near just north of Newport
and I used to go there because my aunt
was the receptionist the hotel and she
had she lived in a trailer near the
beach and it was like this Bliss I used
to go there and I remember the first
time I was trying to fish off the rocks
in in Lincoln City Oregon I was catching
nothing this old guy lived in a shack is
watching me and he comes up he says kid
I've been I've been watching you you
know today he'd be arrested but and and
I said he said you're not catching
anything right he said no he says
because you're doing it wrong you can't
catch any fish unless it's a falling
tide that's when the tide is going out
very quickly rushing out between the
rocks and I'm like well all the fish are
gone right he says no no you'll see it's
stirring up the Plankton big fish go
crazy it's happening in 45 minutes he
has his fishing pole we throw our we
throw our lines in and we're pulling
them out by you know by the tens it's
unbelievable and and afterward he's
feeling sort of philosophical he lights
up a cigarette on the Rocks I'm 11 or
something and he says Hey kid you know
during a falling tide you can only make
one mistake I said what's that I said
not having your line in the water
and I have learned this that the time
between the tides of your life the
falling tide of your life looks like
you're losing everything get your line
in the water because that's the most
fertile period of your life
so what does it mean to have your line
in the water you must try new things you
must be fully Alive you must try
everything you possibly can you must
need you to Define Fully Alive to be to
to wake up each day and to live that day
full of possibility not to nurse your
wounds not to waste your time not to try
to do things that you used to do to be
fully Alive is to be alive to the new
set of experiences that's that's coming
across the transom
that's super important because during
this time of luminality by the way
there's a lot of research on this this
is not just an anecdote about you know
this kid fishing in Oregon this is
there's a lot of research that shows
that this time between periods in your
life which there's a guy named Bruce
feiler who's who writes a book about
Transitions and he said during these
life Quakes you know if you're if your
spouse just left you that's a fertile
period for you to learn new things if
you you know you've lost somebody to
death if you've if you're if you're
going through chemotherapy for example
this is and you and you're very you've
just been through a pandemic for example
for example if you during the pandemic
many people find that despite the fact
that they hated it were insecure and it
was horrible that their lives
transformed for the good that in terms
of what we're talking about here the two
curves fluid and crystallized
intelligence that period between the two
where you're you're declining in one and
the other's increasing but you don't
know how to get on it or even what it
means that's your most fertile period
That's when things are can be absolutely
magic they're not gonna be fun you might
not be happy
but that's when magic can happen
to tell me about this then because this
happened to you you've been in periods
between that you've got you cannot
you're successful but you're miserable
and so you had to change what was the
time between the tides for you what
happened
you have a concept that resonates with
me profoundly which is that suffering is
sacred you have to do it well though
and I think
there's a few key things that you have
to recognize and when you were telling
your story about your wife a I don't
even know who I would be without my wife
and as I think so for a period my wife
and I now I would say are in very a
traditional gender roles but in the
beginning of our marriage it was very
traditional in a way that was profoundly
um transformative so much of the way
that she tried to express herself in the
world was through me so she was a
stay-at-home wife
but very shrewd very sharp and would
push me to be better and was beyond
supportive when things were not going
well for me and in a very similar vein
of like I don't care if we're poor I
want to see you happy that's all that
matters to me and so when I was
profoundly unhappy I would come home and
I would say don't ask me about my day I
don't want to think about it I have to
separate myself from that and so finally
it got to the point where she was like
look this is starting to damage our
marriage and so I'm gonna need you to
work less to figure something out
whatever and so that's when I went in
and decided I was going to quit and we
were going to move to a small town in
Greece and I was going to write again
she's Greek and uh it was I was going to
do that which made me feel alive and so
that was the refrain I want to feel
alive again I want to feel alive again
and so I knew what that felt like
because I had pursued my art so
fervently for years and it made me feel
some kind of way and so I recognized the
decline was able to associate it with
well you're just trying to get rich
you've made money it hasn't changed so
there's something here that you
fundamentally misunderstood about the
world and my I guess liminal thing had
been it had been going on for a while
because when I left Film School
and did not understand how to break into
the film industry that was a devastating
period And I would just lay on the floor
and I couldn't afford to furnish my
apartment and I would the the plenty of
room yeah like hilarity was not lost on
me I could feel like that cheap nylon
carpet that you get in cheap apartments
and it would leave like an imprint on my
face because I would just lay on the
floor and I'm like this is so ridiculous
and I started reading about the brain
and I don't remember where that Insight
came from maybe something I picked up in
college I don't know but I was like I
need to learn about how the brain works
and so this late 90s and brain
plasticity is being debated and it
wasn't there wasn't an answer some
people were like yes it's real other
people like no it's not and I was like
you know what I'm going to act as if
it's true because that's so much more
hopeful
and so I didn't know the Einstein quote
back then but the quote of the most
important decision anybody will make is
whether they live in a friendly or a
hostile universe and me deciding that I
lived in a world where brain plasticity
was real was me saying I live in a
friendly Universe right and so I started
trying to get better and I was teaching
at the time and so I'm teaching film and
I start noticing I can make the students
films better if I can make their films
better because by this point I believe I
have no Talent that's a whole part of
the story so I believe I'm completely
talentless I thought I was born with
talent I clearly was not I don't know
how to break into the industry I'm going
to teach because those that can do and
those that can't teach but I'm reading
about the brain brain plasticity I'm
helping the students make their films
better and I have a question in my mind
which is well if I can make their films
better why can't I make my own better
I was like maybe I could and so that
gives me the hope that I need to be
fully Alive to start approaching things
with hey maybe I just need to get better
and I can work on this
and I had read the Dao dejing when I was
16 which planned some very profound
seeds in my mind which I will now call a
growth mindset but back then like I
didn't really understand how to put them
to use in my life but I start putting
them to use in my life I start getting
better at filmmaking and you couple that
with my wife being just incredibly
encouraging not afraid to be poor
wanting to see me happy
um and and that was when I went in and
as I said before we started rolling I
went into my partners and I quit and I
said look I can't keep pursuing money
anymore and so I don't know my version
of having my
um my line in the water was
knowing I wanted to feel alive
believing that if I went and did the
thing that I wanted to do that I would
get better at it and that if I got good
enough I couldn't be denied right and so
the whole Steve Martin quote this would
have been
like 28 29. yeah so you're really on
your flu intelligence curve in a big way
but not feeling it so I have struggled
my entire life have you seen Amadeus for
sure okay so solieri laments to God why
did you make me oh my God you're a
musician this will resonate with you why
did you make me just good enough to
realize I'll never be as good as Mozart
Why couldn't you have made me like just
a another person in the crowd that can
appreciate what he does but you had to
make me just good enough that I want to
be that good and I realize I never will
be that's how I have felt my entire life
I've always had friends that were just
enough smarter than me that I was like
damn I'm never going to be that smart
and so I always tried to find a
different Lane and in the beginning it
was being funny and so for a long time I
wanted to be a stand-up comic but it was
all self-deprecating because I had low
self-esteem I just make fun of myself
all day which only reinforced my low
self-esteem for sure and so while I was
very funny it didn't feel good and so
ultimately end up rejecting that
um but yeah so at the height of my fluid
intelligence I did not feel intelligent
I felt the exact opposite and you're
getting tons of material success thus
helping you to understand later on as
you as you increase the wisdom that the
if if you take the instrumentality of
money and make it your intrinsic Focus
you're destined for misery no doubt now
this is an interesting you know Insight
that that we we can take back to ancient
times but Saint Thomas Aquinas in 1265
writes his Summa theologica the seminal
text of Western philosophy you know
forget the just the theology just
Western philosophy and in it he talks
about this very interesting thing he
says that that man mankind humankind
we'd say today has four Idols you pursue
everybody pursues one or more of four
idols and he calls them the substitutes
for God because his supposition is that
that we all want God but God is
extremely inconvenient a lot of
one-sided conversations and a ton of
rules so we look for substitutes that
have kind of these Divine
characteristics the problem is they're
180 degrees off God their money power
pleasure and fame fame he says honor
which is has different kind of
annotations I have a son is a marine who
serves With Honor that's not what we
mean we're talking about admiration and
the uh of other people of you which is
which is people want that or or just
Prestige or maybe Fame you know some
people actually want to be famous but
let's just call it money power pleasure
and fame everybody you know I play this
game what's my idol and I'll ask people
not what's your actual Idol but what is
not your idol you know of these four
money power pleasure Fame what's the one
that least attracts you that you could
get rid of with total impunity you don't
care and then we'll we'll start
eliminating and we're gonna find your
idol as the whole thing now the
interesting thing about that is that
what he says is not that you'll go to
hell if you do that he says you'll be
unhappy if you don't recognize the idol
if you don't recognize the idols in your
life the trouble is the limbic system of
your brain Mother Nature that Tyrant
tells you that you'll actually be happy
if you get your idol and so you chase it
and you chase it you can't quite figure
route what you're going to do if you get
it like Tom's going to get you know
hundreds of millions or billions of
dollars what are you going to do with
that money that you would actually like
and you can't quite figure out well yeah
because if you if you articulate it you
know if I say you'll buy a yacht and
you're like I don't that sounds like
kind of a hassle to have a yacht maybe
it sounds good but not that good right
the real reason you want that is because
you want admiration because you want the
the validation of what it represents of
you to you you want to this transference
of social comparison you've always done
with other people you want to actually
feel the thing that you felt for others
about yourself that's what the idols do
that's the nasty Switcheroo that's the
that's the despotism of this of of of
mistaking the intrinsic good for the
instrumentality that's why Thomas
Aquinas was so astute in what he was
talking about here so when we play this
game and we we see what is is actually
holding us back and you experience this
absolutely you were chasing the thing
chasing the thing and chasing anything
getting more and more and more miserable
because you're actually getting closer
and closer to your idol and realizing it
will not realize one single thing that
you needed for your unhappiness it had
no intrinsic worth look and there's
anything about money by the way the
research on money is very clear that it
doesn't actually ever bring happiness it
lowers unhappiness which are processed
in different hemispheres of the of the
brain happiness and unhappiness are not
opposites they're not they're different
experiences and what happens is at low
levels money will lower unhappiness so
when I could finally go to the dentist I
felt better the trouble is I don't know
how to do the sums inside my brain I
just know I felt better and we always
mistake lower unhappiness for higher
happiness and so early on you're like
wow I went from from you know fifteen
thousand dollars to twenty thousand
dollars a year and I felt better I
actually felt better about myself I was
able to eliminate some of these sources
of of you know misery so I'm happier and
so you get into the pattern early on you
wire your brain when you're a young
person working your way up the ladder
more money feel better that means more
happiness and you realize that going
from 250 to 300 000 is not doing it that
because it's not big enough jump
apparently so you go and you go and you
go and you go and you go and you're
basically just chasing a lure it's a
real tyranny
no doubt and that's what you experienced
and that's why you're miserable right
because you couldn't get there from here
it's interesting yes I put different
words to it and I'm curious to see what
you think about this so I think about it
from an evolutionary standpoint so we
have directives in our brain that there
is going to be a sense of dis-ease if
you don't do certain things
I think that deep and profound
unhappiness can come from pursuing the
wrong thing so that you're spending your
time doing things that just they rob you
of energy instead of giving you energy
but I also think that people end up
profoundly unhappy by not doing things
that nature wants them to do right and I
think one of the things that nature
wants us to do and so just not doing it
will be a problem is work really hard to
turn your potential into skill set yeah
and so if things come easily to you even
though you're on top of the world and
everybody else admires you and wants to
be you that there will be a sense of
disease for you because you're not
working hard it doesn't feel meritorious
yeah Nature has to find a proxy right so
nature wants you to have children so it
makes sure that sex is intensely
pleasurable but that's really just a
proxy for have kids
so that I find really interesting that
that nature is working in these weird
proxies so people end up like you think
you're supposed to do one thing chase
money power Fame whatever
you're like why does this suck but all
of those things actually do have utility
and so the thing with money is people
are always going to pursue it the thing
with famous people are always going to
pursue it why because it actually has
utility so money for instance is more
powerful than people think not less but
it isn't what you've been told so it's
never what myself and everyone else
included is trying to do is feel better
about themselves right it won't help
with that it cannot touch your
self-esteem and that's like the biggest
like mind [ __ ] ever your wife won't love
you more
your children won't respect you more
when you have more money exactly more
troubling yes you won't respect you more
yes which is ultimately the because
other people will like people treat me
differently because I have some micro
Fame and then because it's actually
troubling too because when you know
somebody is instrumentalizing you when
you know somebody's objectifying you
because of this outside characteristic
it makes you profoundly uncomfortable
it's interesting people hate that you
know it's the one thing where we will
allow people to objectify us you're well
known you're successful and people will
be nice to you because of that and deep
down you know that they they they don't
love you and it's not how it plays out
in my head how does it play out in your
head that I have no ability to be
vulnerable around them oh I see and so
that's the same self-objective that's
the same part of objectification and if
when you're objectified you can't be a
full person
there's another interesting thing that
might actually apply you're a creative
you're fundamentally a creative when you
were doing your work you were thrown off
the creative process now why is
creativity intensely pleasurable
you get you've read the work of mihai
cheeks like the great social
psychologist who wrote a book a very
famous book called flow
f-l-o-w flow and what it talks about is
how minutes how hours turn to minutes of
sheer pleasure when you're in this Flow
State when you're doing something that
you can Master you're you can it's not
too easy it requires your ability but
you can Master it because of your skill
and you can get into this groove
creatives must create if creatives are
not creating they will be miserable
because they can't attain a flow State
it's very possible Tom that when you're
in this part of your career you needed
to create what you wanted to quit and go
to Greece to do creation you were
basically craving that it's like you had
no protein in your diet for a year or
something it's like I don't know I just
can't stop thinking about peanut butter
well because you were create you were
you were you were craving this
macronutrient in your psyche and and you
were never getting a flow State and if
you're denied the flow state that
uniquely comes to you through creativity
you're gonna you're gonna be practically
suicidal
yeah it was it was definitely a rough
period that's interesting I've never
thought about it as being intrinsically
a reflection of the pleasurability of
flow but you might be right it's just I
feel I feel alive that is the right word
I feel alive when I'm creating I'm never
happier than what I'm creating it's
amazing people who are fundamentally
creatives look same thing you know when
I retired as a CEO and I came back to
writing speaking and teaching
um I'm a new man I'm a new man for the
past three years it's extraordinary you
said something a while ago I didn't want
to interrupt you but I want to go back
to it now you said you rediscovered
yourself yeah what does that mean like
you need a sense of identity is that a
core part of this like is when you say
you rediscovered is it a self-narrative
it's you you know who you deeply are as
a person you're acquainted with yourself
you're acquainted with your true self
and just as with people who are around
you you can you can create a an identity
that's actually not authentic you can
create an identity yourself that's not
authentic you can be giving yourself a
self-narrative that's not true to
actually who you are as a person what
does it mean who you are what you're
good at what you love it generally
speaking has to do with being in the
zone of what you actually love to do and
what you appreciate most in your life
when you're in line with your own values
when you're living a court of your own
value so young would have put it this
way Carl Jung his definition of his
understanding of Happiness was that you
need to understand your own values what
you value what you think is proper and
correct and moral and if you know what
that is and can articulate it and live
according to that you will be happy if
you agree with that I think it's
actually there's a lot of Truth to that
because you know you have to figure out
what you think what your model of the
world actually is what you think truth
is and then living in accord with your
own values with your own Integrity is is
really critically important because when
people live outside that Groove they're
they're never in equilibrium they're
just never the problem is that they're
not comfortable they're not comfortable
in their own skin and I'm not noticed
this you know I was working you know it
was it was it was good being the
president of a think tank I was lucky to
be a president of Think Tank I believed
in the work but
it wasn't who I was and so I was kind of
out of my groove for 10 years 10 and a
half years and when I started going when
I went back to writing and speaking and
teaching and doing creative work I said
ah
it's weird always who you were or was
that because you switched into Chris
that's also I was always a Creator you
know as a kid I was painting and writing
and composing music and I just always
wanted to be I was a creativity is the
most important thing in my life or
curiosity and creativity are the or the
most important thing that I can not most
important thing in my life the most
important thing that I can do and when
I'm actually happiest and when I was
managing a large Workforce managing a
lot of creatives to their best selves I
mean it was that certainly created
moments to it to be sure but it wasn't
comfortable to me and when I my second
curve which was much more crystallized
intelligence is a lot also a lot more
creative so I was kind of out of
equilibrium for a long time during that
period as well which compounds the
problem by declining fluent intelligence
also not being in a creative role but
it's just so much better I mean I
I teach at a great University which I
love I write for a magazine every week
about things that I'm really interested
in I get to talk to you about it this is
well he's working
so true for some reason I was just
thinking today like I was pacing
listening to you and I was like I'm
technically working right now weird I
was like this is cool it is super cool
and you know there are people that I've
met it's interesting you know I talk to
lawyers who don't feel like they're
working I talked to and a guy who's
putting in cabinets in my house
and and he's super into putting in
cabinets he loves making cabinets he was
talking about all the details and he's
so proud of his work and I say
do you do you do you like your work and
he said
it doesn't feel like work
you know I want on a fishing Expedition
deep sea fishing Expedition with my son
Carlos we he loves a fish we go fishing
and uh and the guy says every morning I
wake up and he says today I'm going
fishing
and so this is what we all need to find
I mean we need to eat each person
because we have the blessing of living
in an economy where you can do a lot of
different things
um the problem is that people chase
these extrinsic lures the money power
pleasure and fame and they get out of
the groove of what they're supposed to
do and then they wonder why they're
unhappy what are some habits that I can
easily incorporate into my daily life to
accomplish fulfillment
all right here's the important thing to
understand about fulfillment is that it
is a process and there is a Formula what
I call the Fulfillment formula the aptly
named and the way that it works is this
first I want you to understand that
there are these imperatives in your
brain given to you by Evolution and you
are going to be emotionally rewarded for
doing certain things and emotionally
punished for not doing other things and
that's where fulfillment comes in
when you put yourself in an evolutionary
context you're going to understand why
the formula is what the formula is so
I'll quickly give you the formula and
then explain it in context so the
formula goes like this you're going to
work really hard to gain a set of skills
that allow you to serve not only
yourself but other people okay now why
is that the formula so first of all it's
very important to understand that
Growing Up On The Plains of the Savannah
you would have had to work really hard
to stay alive to feed your family so you
had to face tremendous danger massive
obstacles and so nature only has two
ways to get you moving and that is
Pleasure and Pain punishment reward so
when it wants Behavior it's going to
reward that by making it uh feel amazing
and if it doesn't want Behavior then
it's going to make sure that if you're
engaging in it it sucks and if it wants
you to do something and you don't do it
that will also suck so this is where
share Pleasure and Pain come in and
where you have to really understand why
this cycle is so deeply embedded in your
brain so because from an evolutionary
standpoint working hard was necessary
for survival then working hard working
hard has to feel good and conversely if
you're not working hard then you're
going to feel a deep sense of unease so
that's why I say that the first step in
the Fulfillment formula is that you're
going to have to work really hard to
gain a set of skills now the reason that
you're working hard is because if you
don't work hard even now in a modern
context where you probably get away
without putting that much time and
effort into something the reason that
fulfillment is going to demand it is
because from an evolutionary standpoint
you needed to have that embedded in your
brain the directive to work hard to
accomplish these things so working hard
really is its own reward dad something
that he used to tell me all the time
when I was a kid and he's absolutely
right it is true truly ingrained in us
even though we sometimes fight and don't
want to do it and we also have the
impulse to chill and lay on the couch
if you're not working hard you will feel
a deep sense of unease all right so
we're going to work hard to gain a set
of skills now
the set of skills is really about
serving the group
so we know that humans are a creature
that leverages culture so so many other
animals are hardwired and so a horse
when it's born 20 minutes later it's
doing all the things that a horse can do
but humans are different than that so we
take this long period of gestation
followed by this long infancy and in all
of that we are going through these
different phases of development and
around the ages of 11 to 15 you go into
this drinking deeply from the culture
moment where it's not just about your
environment anymore it's about the
actual culture and taking in that
information so you're going to gain a
set of skills that matter to you
and matter to the group okay and that's
the part of culture so you're working
really hard to gain the set of skills
that matter to you and the group
something that's exciting to you you
just enjoy doing it that's very
important for fulfillment and then it
allows you to serve not only yourself
but the group because we're a social
creature we of course need to be
rewarded for doing things for the group
and we're going to be punished for not
doing things to the group in our own
minds okay that's very important if
you're not contributing to the group you
will have this sense of meaninglessness
and this is where meaning and purpose
come in I'm doing something not just for
myself but for other people it is
ingrained in your mind to do that okay
so you get this set of skills now this
is where passion comes in the you want
to be developing a set of skills that
you're deeply passionate about but
understand passion also is a process so
you start with something you find
interesting you engage with it if the
more you engage with it the more
fascinating it becomes then we're going
to go down the process of gaining actual
Mastery doing the boring difficult
difficult repetitive tasks required to
truly master that thing in a way that
the group values now when you do that
you get into a passion feedback loop
even though it is boring and difficult
at times as you get better at this thing
that matters to the group the group
gives you feedback and that feedback
when it's positive feels wonderful thank
you for whatever your contribution is oh
my gosh it really matters it's amazing
thank you so much which makes you want
to do more which you know to get that
feedback more you're going to need to go
get better at that thing and that's how
you get people in these virtuous Cycles
you're working really hard to gain a set
of skills that gets the group excited
about your contributions which make you
feel good about yourself which make you
want to get even better at that thing so
that you can contribute even more to the
group and that is fulfillment there's
all this meaning and purpose behind it
you're doing it to serve other people
it's bigger than yourself and now you
get the neurochemical cocktail that
you've been looking for by doing that
formula that's fulfillment fail to
optimize for fulfillment at your own
peril
all right next question can you shed
some light on how to be still in times
of chaos and focus on working towards
fulfillment
first of all I want to acknowledge that
chaos can be very difficult to deal with
and it requires a lot of emotional
management and you've got to be able to
do many things quite frankly it is going
to be a whole grab bag of tricks my
friends for you to get through and get
on the other side of that chaos all
right first things first meditation is
going to be huge okay just at a
physiological level you've got to get
that background radiation down to zero
now this can be very difficult when
you're in the middle of something and
you really feel like you're fighting for
your life but you need to make time for
that this is a physiological process by
getting into that calm and creative
state you're going to find answers that
you otherwise wouldn't see so we need to
get out of that panic mode and into calm
creative problem solving now remember
action cures all so we've got this
fulfillment thing that we're chasing
we've got the Fulfillment formula we
know exactly what we need to do we're in
the middle of the chaos and the thing
that's going to solve for that
meditation so we're thinking calmly
clearly
but also having a plan of attack and
then going after it so there's been
really cool studies done by Andrew
huberman and other people about how
lateral eye movement can actually pull
you out of that stressed and anxious
State because what it's doing is it's
mimicking you moving forward and moving
forward on these evolutionary time
frames we've been rewarded for that
because it means that you're confronting
your problem you're working hard you're
dealing with the saber-toothed tiger the
warring tribe that just need to go out
and Hunt whatever you're dealing with it
and since nature only has Pleasure and
Pain if you're dealing with it nature is
going to make sure to give you some
pleasure on that and conversely if
you're trying to hide from it that's not
going to feel great and you're going to
really spiral it is crazy to me how
taking action and getting into
problem-solving mode immediately shifts
me out of anxiety it is absolutely
profound so that's going to be a big
part of this and when you're doing that
in the context of the fulfillment
formula now you know that this is going
to be something you're working really
hard to gain that set of skills that
serve not only yourself but other people
so you're thinking about other people
you're thinking about service and that
has a way of really helping you get
through the chaos because it's giving
you the emotional energy to have the
stamina to fight through to get to the
other side and as I think it was
Churchill that said If You're Going
Through Hell keep going
but keep going armed with meaning and
purpose around how you're contributing
to the group around getting these skills
around being in problem solving mode and
around taking action because that is
going to be the thing that cures all and
then don't forget sleep hygiene very
important meditation important keep your
diet right don't tell yourself a
negative story don't allow yourself to
Loop and defeat find people that can
Elevate you find people that will in a
very real skills-based way help you see
the path forward and help you hold on to
the only belief that matters that you
can figure this out
foreign
steps I can take right away to train my
mind to not go after easy pleasures and
happiness and instead seek the
gratification that comes from
fulfillment all right
the great news is all you have to do is
recognize the truth of The Human
Condition and the truth of The Human
Condition is that chasing momentary
happiness won't
fulfill you that's literally what I
wanted to say and I'm not because we're
talking about fulfillment I won't use a
just recursive Loop but that really is
true all of that stuff is so transient
what makes fulfillment interesting is
that it is this far more
stabilizing
neurochemical state so your brain is
constantly checking in with you
making sure on a subconscious level that
you're doing the things that you need to
do to be of service to the group to be
of service to yourself to make sure that
you're taking care of yourself and your
family and your loved ones in your tribe
okay so there's this
subconscious record keeping going on and
that's exactly what's happening that's
why you sometimes will feel the unease
in your body before consciously you know
what's going on and you feel it ah
there's something off you need to take
the time to identify what it is to be
able to articulate it in a single nice
crispy sentence so you can figure out
exactly what it is that you need to do
to move forward okay now once you
understand that that is just the nature
of the game that going after these
momentary things would be exactly that
it's going to be momentary it's going to
fade you're going to have a sense of
unease you're not going to be in the
shape that you want emotionally once I
know oh going down that road is not
going to leave me in the emotional state
that I want to be in then it's very easy
to go well this one might be a little
bit more difficult it might take more
sustained effort but it yields these
tremendous results so the example that I
always give is
um eating junk food
I love junk food and truly love it by
the way it is it gives me a drug like
high it is so fun to eat sugary Foods
the problem is that especially as I get
older it hurts literally after the fact
my joints will hurt uh I won't sleep as
well I wake up the next day and it's
just like I have like a slight hangover
that's literally what it feels like
and
because I know that that's the outcome
it's like well on the times where I
don't mind and it's like well I'm gonna
you know enjoy this drug-like thing for
a minute I'll sort of walk a fine line
have some fun here suffer a little
tomorrow but on balance maybe I come out
a little bit ahead on the happiness but
if I try to do it two days in a row
forget it three days in a row it really
starts to be like a real problem so even
over the holidays now when I let myself
off of you know the hook with all of my
normal disciplines and all of that
even then now I keep myself in check
just because I don't like the way that
it feels so once you understand oh I can
do this thing over here and feel really
good or I can do this thing over here
it's very momentary it's very transient
it doesn't last I kind of you know I'm
not where I want to be and I begin to
ask myself questions like what am I
doing with my life so just knowing that
to me fulfillment is
much longer in duration it's much more
resilient I can be fulfilled even when
things are hard even when things aren't
going my way even when it's difficult in
fact the Fulfillment I get from
contributing to the group is the very
thing that inoculates me from the hard
times being able to knock me all the way
down because on those moments where you
just beleaguered
and you're getting it from all sides and
it just seems like everything is
crashing on you at once
in those moments you're going to cling
to what you're doing to help other
people
and nature will ensure that that is
going to make you feel way way better
all right how do you become fulfillment
driven versus achievement driven when
everywhere around you see people and
Society running for the latter
okay
one I want to acknowledge the power of
success success is amazing and winning
at the game in a way that's recognized
by your peers is always going to feel
good so understand that you don't have
to be you know Mother Teresa in order to
um
be worthwhile and to love yourself
it's okay to want some success and
honestly if we really look at Mother
Teresa I'm betting that to hurt really
mattered to succeed in a way that was
deeply meaningful and she certainly
seemed to be trying to reach as many
people as humanly possible and so if we
can look at someone like that and say
well that was a worthwhile Endeavor then
what we're really saying is as long as
the way in which you're contributing is
Meaningful then that's like the double
whammy of you should absolutely feel
good about that so we've got two things
one it's okay to want to be successful I
want to be successful even more
successful than I've been I want to
scale and touch just an Untold number of
lives and
I don't feel badly about that I love
that it makes me want to go out and help
more people now I don't think that
everybody should pursue scale in the way
that I pursue scale it certainly has its
own complications but if you know that
about yourself and you want to play on
that level and you're willing to pursue
it knowing you may never get there right
I mean never get where I want to go but
I love striving to play at that scale so
when you are looking at it from that
perspective it's not necessarily A Bad
Thing it becomes toxic when you're
aiming yourself at something that isn't
helping you or it's only helping you and
it isn't helping other people and that
again just going back to this idea of
you're a social creature with
evolutionary imperatives to help
contribute to the group and when you're
not doing that you will automatically
feel a sense of unease that there's
something missing so I say do both very
cool to pursue like the the big Grand
rewards whatever it is that you want but
make sure that you're doing that in the
context of something that serves other
people as well if you're doing that and
trying to pursue fulfillment at the
the grandest level that makes sense for
you and your personality I say go for it
so you don't need to artificially
downplay yourself or try to be small
like go crazy be bombastic be big do
your thing go as hard as you want
just make sure that it's in service of
something that is Honorable
that's it
all right what are ways I can recognize
when I am fulfilled especially when I am
still in the middle of my journey
all right so one this is about taking
time to catalog the things we're
grateful for just really stopping to
either journal or think through what is
it that I'm doing
what's my goal
how am I attempting to contribute to the
group am I actually contributing to the
group and then you can use David gogan's
idea of the cookie jar where it's like
you remember the times where you
meaningfully impacted somebody you did
something you got amazing feedback it
really helps somebody out it was aligned
with you know what your goal is then
those are the things that you put into
that memory bank and you pull on those
when things are getting hard and you
remember yo I did this thing I can do
more things I can push harder go farther
help more people whatever the case may
be and so
as you think about that
and you
recognize you're not where you want to
be yet but you're focusing on the ways
in which you've already contributed
that's going to give you the energy that
you need to keep pushing through and
ultimately
you have to be honest with yourself
about whether or not you are fulfilled
at this moment because it isn't
something that you're going to be able
to talk yourself into because maybe
you're not maybe you're not feeling your
contributions maybe you're not doing
things in a way that's joyful I talk
about goals need to be two things
exciting and honorable okay so if
honorable is that it helps not only
yourself but other people don't forget
about the exciting part you've got to be
just amped up you got to be doing
something that you want to do for
instance
is it possible that I can help more
people by doing something other than
building impact Theory it's entirely
possible but impact theory is what I
love doing on a daily basis I love doing
content like this I love the people that
I get to meet the people that I get to
interview I love the idea of building
um film and TV and nfts like all of that
stuff for me is absolutely thrilling I
love it maybe I shouldn't but I love it
and because it's so exciting for me I
have handcrafted my life to make the
biggest contribution to the tribe if you
will that I can but doing things that I
love and want to be the best in the
world at so if you're not doing that
then all of this might feel empty or you
might be serving the group in a way that
sort of by wrote instead of and this is
a great example I'm almost certain this
was Toyota so Toyota was trying to
encourage their employees to do
um
charity work and they found that people
were going to soup kitchens and helping
Feed the Homeless and was nice but the
people at Toyota felt like they weren't
really leveraging their unique skill set
and this is why I say fulfillment is
about working really hard on a set of
skills that matter to you and allow you
to serve the group so you go down this
that passion Loop of getting gaining
true Mastery of something that gets you
positive feedback so what Toyota's
employees ended up doing was going and
making the soup kitchen more efficient
so that they could feed more hungry
people faster and that made them feel
extraordinarily good so figuring out why
it is exactly that it's coming up for
you that you might not be feeling
fulfilled so one you might not be doing
the right things so making sure that
you're following the Fulfillment formula
and then two making sure that you have
that meaning and purpose you know why
you're doing what you're doing you feel
connected to the people that you're
serving it's a big deal at impact Theory
every team meeting we go through and
read something that somebody from the
community has written explaining how
impact theories touched their lives it's
incredibly important to us to re-ground
ourselves around the people that we're
actually serving so that can be an
important thing to just take that time
what are you doing that is helping
that's moving the needle you know circle
around it write it down like really
focus on that thing and internalize it
and that should help
all right everybody
fulfillment is one of the most important
things I'm telling you the punch line of
Life the very thing that you were trying
to optimize for is very simply
fulfillment done in a joyful manner
fulfillment and joy fulfillment and joy
that really is the key it isn't the
grand success so there's nothing wrong
with chasing that
it it is an accolades it isn't money it
isn't Fame it's none of those things it
is truly
working really hard to gain a set of
skills
that that you care about
that allow you to serve not only
yourself but other people towards an end
that excites you
well I think there's a through line of
change as a thing that's a constant in
our lives there's change that we choose
we've become fed up with the status quo
or normal being okay with being okay we
decide that we're going to finally
create the courageous first steps in
making that change a thing that gets us
closer to who we're meant to be or the
version of what becoming looks like for
us and then there's the change that
chooses Us in that we think we have some
control that illusion is a thing that we
can connect to until we wake up one day
and there's a diagnosis there's a job
that no longer exists a relationship
that ends and in a world where I had is
the pillar one of the biggest pillars of
my identity husband to Rachel the change
choosing me in this the end of our
marriage was something that I now didn't
know who I was in the absence of not
being who I'd been and in a world where
we were also working together that
identity of what I did and what I
thought I'd do for the rest of my life
was something that in a single swoop was
pulled out and now required that I in
having been handed this blank piece of
paper
go through the work of trying to fill
out what next looked like and
I say in the book and I've said it
plenty of times it's both parts
exhilarating and terrifying at the
beginning it's way more terrifying than
it is exhilarating
but that's part of what courage ends up
being a required ingredient for turning
the terrifying into the exhilarating
because when you realize oh there there
is no control there's only the way that
we respond to the circumstances that
life presents or the way that we in
choosing change manufacture new events
or a new a new road a new map that we
ultimately end up sailing off of
that's still because it ends up being
different than something we've
previously been familiar with or gotten
the hang of or have comfort with
requires courage to step into it
it's the whole idea of having to lose
things first I find really interesting
and I don't know if I remember when
Fight Club came out and the way that it
felt and the the sort of I don't know it
made me feel more attached to it but I
lived in the building that he in the
beginning he showcases and he describes
the building and all that's I don't know
if he intentionally took it from the
brochure but it's so specific to how
they marketed that building that my
guess is that he did yeah
and so he's describing a building I
actually lived in and like all the you
know ways about how modernity has sort
of Trapped Us in this thing and then he
blows it up and so there was a sense of
I don't know it was a real cultural
moment and you going through a divorce
so publicly has that same kind of
interesting ring of like and now let me
show you the process of building up so
if Fight Club takes a far darker look at
you know that the process of creative
destruction
your life and the book specifically is
this really interesting take on the
beautiful side of creative or the the
creative opportunities that come from
destruction yeah
walk me through like as things are
falling down around you I'm sure your
first instinct is to try to hold it
together when did you first get the
sense of maybe actually letting this
fall down is the right place to start
it took a while to be honest because I
initially was very much in this well
let's do the work to fix it can we is
there some way that we can keep this
thing that has been put on the table
from happening
and it was evident very early on that oh
this is a decision that has been made
there is no negotiating as it were
and acceptance was a thing that took
time for me uh and and the reality was
in part one of the first casualties in
my life was my imagination because I in
this thing that I didn't think Could
Happen having happened the vision that
I'd had for so long of what the rest of
my life would look like and who I'd be
with and where we'd live and the way
that we do work it being gone made my
ability to see what is not even five
years from now what is a year from now I
just I had a compromised imagination it
was gone
and so then you had a sense of that loss
oh yeah no I was acutely aware of this
inability for me to forecast anything
beyond what was now a survival survival
mode of sorts of I just got to get
through tomorrow like I was in deep
grief just deep grief and in that
sadness of now letting go of what I'd
previously thought things might look
like
I was trying to find something that I
might connect to that would allow me to
re-cultivate or re-spark that
imagination and the place I had to start
to be honest was really getting intimate
with my fear because most of why my
imagination had been lost was it because
there was so much fear around trying to
figure out something that I'd never
contemplated so that becomes like a
screaming voice in your head that stops
you from seeing things yeah well I mean
I ended up having this conversation with
fear where I was trying to understand
what is it what are the things that are
in the reason you feel the need to have
this conversation is it's ever present
and you don't like it it's ever present
and it is 100 inhibitor from me being
able to see anything hope filled it's
it's hard for me to see the exhilarating
part of the Choose Your Own Adventure
narrative that I am suggesting I believe
exists but I can't connect to all right
so sit me down in that moment so
you so I've known you before divorce
through divorce after divorce and
there's no doubt that we all sort of
present things to the world but you from
the outside
um you handled it extraordinarily well
and that doesn't mean that you didn't
process grief and cry and all that but
um it's really interesting I think
having read the book
I'm going to step back
you're intriguing to me because you
don't see yourself the way that I see
you and while there's no doubt that you
know yourself better than I know you
the thing that you've had to like fight
and Claw to earn your own respect around
is from the outside so self-evidently
impressive about you
so in the book you're like I mean built
through courage like you know you gotta
step outside your comfort zone but I'm
the guy that always gets trapped by my
comfort zone no you're not you're the
guy that for whatever reason is
constantly able to reinvent reinvent
reinvent like when I hear you describe
what you did in the corporate world how
many times you took different jobs and
just said yes before you knew it was
going on
but every time it's hard for you which
makes you in my opinion the right person
to write the user's manual on how to get
through this so now as we sit down with
you in that fear I want to know how
because most people they're lost in that
forever okay I've known plenty of people
that get divorced and 25 years later
they're still stewing in that same space
they were two months after the divorce
you've already made some pretty
extraordinary leaps begun to put things
back together but if you sit me down in
that moment of fear
where you can't see anything hope filled
what's the first thing that you grab a
hold of that allows you to begin to
construct
a a context for how to move forward the
first thing was truly getting to a place
of acceptance right like I was in denial
that this was even happening it felt
like I was in the upside down like the
Matrix is a thing now like is this the
simulation I've in some ways at the
beginning convinced myself that there
was the possibility that this wasn't
even real really oh yeah because it just
it didn't make sense and then I got to a
place of no no this is real
you have the responsibility to parent
these four kids you have the
responsibility to show up for your life
how are you going to do it and the thing
the question I started asking was what
did I need to just become the version of
who I'd hoped to be 90 days from now
right like the first thing I had to do
was really shrink the window of my
forward-looking vision casting where I'd
been a person doing five and ten years
here's where I'm going to be and I could
just like a movie playing in my head
describe what it was going to look like
I needed to understand what did I need
to do today to get myself just 90 days
into the future and for me it ended up
going through the question of Health how
might I in the five Dimensions that I've
identified as being important for me in
health mental emotional spiritual
relational and physical health
how might I have two or three things for
each of those dimensions of Health every
day that might become part of my routine
and part of what ends up being my set of
habits that will allow me to create just
enough inertia from this now standing
still I describe a sailboat in the book
that is waiting for wind right like okay
I gotta at least build the sale I gotta
put it up so that when the wind starts
to come I'm actually prepared to move
forward and so for me it was all right
what do I need in my mental health
well I needed to see professional
freaking help on the regular I mean I
was talking to a therapist a couple
times a week because I didn't understand
why I was thinking what I was thinking
why I was feeling what I was feeling and
that interaction created a little bit I
didn't understand it or it was erratic
one minute I can make it the next minute
no I'm never going to both both I didn't
understand
the way that the voice in my head was
being so critical of not having had this
thing that was so important work out I'm
just an achiever by Nature I've had
success in career I've had success and a
whole host of things and yet I couldn't
at the time see that my marriage not
working out wasn't a success my marriage
was a success
it just was the end of my marriage in
what had been or the end of our
relationship and what had been as we've
now transitioned into something new but
at the beginning I saw it as a failure
that I somehow had failed and I I was
really as I'm sitting with my therapist
or having a conversation through
podcasts or books with myself trying to
understand what what could you have done
differently or what are you meant to
learn from this
and some of that work yep would allow me
just a little breadcrumb now I'm taking
one step closer to an answer that over
what now is almost two years worth of
time had me really come to appreciate
I
am who I have become not in spite of
what happened but because of what
happened and that as much as
I have this bold declaration at the end
of 2019 2020 is going to be my best year
ever I have like publicly declared that
45 was the year of my life that I was
waiting for this best year to happen and
what I couldn't appreciate then that I
see so clearly now is that I was not
ever going to be the person who could
dictate the conditions that would bring
my best forward
right and so yeah if in some ways I
brought on some of what ends up
happening in 2020 I apologize for the
pandemic and anything else I may have
been responsible for I don't think that
for real but I also right like I I
prayed that certain things that happened
would never have happened and I was
doing so at the expense of how that
cause and effect relationship produced
the best I wouldn't have been brought to
my knees in a way that brought me closer
to my spiritual walk I wouldn't have had
the way that this divorce created
closeness with my kids the kind of
relationship that comes out of it I
wouldn't have spent the kind of time in
physical transformation really what your
physical transformation is crazy well
crazy no thank you but like it is you
know moving my body and pushing myself
to do things physically has been an
exercise in showing myself that I can do
things that go beyond what I believed
myself to be capable of
so that I could take that experience in
the Physical Realm and believe it in the
mental and emotional realm oh you can
also handle things mentally you can
handle things emotionally that go wildly
beyond what you believed yourself to be
capable of because you now have proof
you have evidence in this other part of
your life body transformation is the
most underutilized mental transformation
tool ever and the number of people that
I've seen whether it's in business
whether it's you know in something like
a divorce or your career whatever where
when you show yourself that you can set
an intention go and lift a progressively
heavier weight and your body actually
changes you look different you feel
different and you can actually pick up
heavier things like that there's
something that goes on of like oh what
if the same thing is happening in my
mind you can't see it in such a tangible
way but when you go through a physical
transformation like that it really does
leave you with something truly profound
yeah there is something too I've
described myself as a recovery covering
fixed mindset person and yet the
attribution of growth in a gym or inside
of the Physical Realm was never anything
that I would have indicted myself for
not being good because I was not already
someone who could lift a certain amount
of weight
but the ability to connect dots and see
oh yeah you can continue to grow in the
space you can grow whether it's muscle
or endurance or stamina recovery all
these things have been things that have
changed the way that I think about
growth in every aspect of my life not
just the Physical Realm which is part of
why it's so powerful all right so you
things are crumbling down around you
we're in grief we can no longer attach
to Hope and we realize okay I have these
five pillars in my life and in the book
you have a really great quote that I
think is what all this is hanging on
which is the antidote to fear is a plan
and I thought that was brilliant it's
absolutely true the same idea I sum up
by saying that action cures all if I'm
super anxious about something all I need
to do is start dealing with the problem
head on like just go start actually
executing against it because it's that's
it does that same thing it puts your
brain in a problem-solving mode instead
of just looping over that it is a
problem all right so we're there we
recognize that the antidote to all of
this is going to be getting a plan we
chunk our life life up into pieces and
we start putting goals in each of those
areas
um
the the cool thing about the Tyler
Durden quote that you have in the book
is that it it has this open-ended
question of if you can now do anything
what's the anything you want to do so
how did you begin to like put that
together the whole Vision that you'd had
for you know 45 years
is gone
what do you start to piece together and
how do you do it so for me there were
two very very big things that were
somewhat of departure from who I'd been
as a more pragmatic practical person
I began even though your introduction of
me having been someone who's taken more
chances or put myself out of my comfort
zone is the greatest compliment in
something I probably don't see enough in
myself I have been in a season of yes
like just radical yes so that if
opportunity presents itself for me to do
something that I have not previously
done that might publicly embarrass me
that I will fail wildly and
spectacularly at for the opportunity to
fail wildly and spectacularly at I have
just said yes and why when did that
become a strategy
in part because of what was the
byproduct of the learning of you know
now that I can do anything
I in being somewhat lost from who I am
now that I'm not who I was I had to go
on something of a fact-finding mission
to ReDiscover who I'm going to be and so
I mean one of the questions that was a
provocateur of the conversation around
divorce was a simple what do you like to
do in your spare time which I should be
able to answer and yet there were some
codependent things that existed in our
relationship there was some there was
some stuff that kept me from being as
connected to myself
and so the discovery of where passion
might exist in my life or where
curiosity might exist in my life became
became well there's only one way that
I'm actually going to get to the bottom
of it and that's by just saying yes to a
bunch of stuff I'm gonna probably
eliminate or disqualify a bunch of
things that I am definitely not curious
about or definitely don't have passion
for but I have to start by saying yes so
that was the first that was the first
big thing the really fast I want to tie
that to something you say in the book
that I thought was really profound so
um
you talk about you you have to be very
careful about how you frame something
and I forget the exact example you use
in the book but you're like let me
describe the same thing two different
ways both are true but one is like you
know you failed at this thing and you
know that set you back at work or
whatever but also this is also true from
that thing you learned this and that's
what ended up giving you the promotion
and it's like which one of those you
want to focus on and tell yourself is
really going to determine your future
Tony Robbins is a really great quote
where he says the quality of your
questions will determine the quality of
your life and was there a conscious
thing around that like I need to ask a
different question around okay I can
look at this as everything has fallen
apart or I can look at this as this is
now my opportunity to change who I am in
a way that I find exciting
it's interesting because it actually
ties to what my second thing was going
to be which was this conceit
this belief that good would come from it
which is hard to manufacture at the
beginning when you're sitting at the
bottom of a ditch were you leaning on
faith on that or was there something
else that Faith yes but not just like
religious Faith but this was like belief
that
the things that I would need in the
journey would present themselves along
the way because that's just how life
works because I believe that if you look
for things you find them
and I was at a place where I was
desperate to find the evidence that good
could still come from this and so I went
on the hunt for it and when I even as
I'm you know Cal ripken's streak of
crying on consecutive days in like uh
you know like it was hard only old
people get that reference
you know like I I did have plenty of
days where just getting out of bed felt
like the win and yet I'd still start my
day with gratitude like finding the good
that was already present despite the
conditions that I was in was a way to
just hack a little bit of how I might
because of that gratitude practice go on
the hunt for things to be grateful for
and so some of it was just this conceit
of
you think good things are going to come
out of this you will become something
because of the post-traumatic growth
that can come out of the hardest thing
that you've ever experienced and it's of
course way easier to say that and see
that today than it was in real time but
I just had a little thing here a little
thing there a text from a pastor that
came every day for the first two months
of the experience 11 really profound
words what small piece of sadness can I
hold for you today
right he wasn't trying to diminish the
pain of grief he wasn't trying to even
do anything more than just offer
solidarity and some empathy for the fact
that this is a shared experience kind of
thing I'll walk alongside you while you
do it but the fact that that showed up
every day was just a reminder some
evidence of the things you need are
going to show up when you need them
along this journey I'm out running and a
new neighbor has happened to move in
down the street I had my head down I was
very emotional that day I was not
interested like I got on a plane kind of
thing I don't want to talk to you in the
seat next to me and yet
I ran past him I end up turning around
to come back and introduce myself and
they ended up becoming
part therapist part comedy buddy part
guy who was showing up to barbecue every
day when I was struggling to remind
myself to eat and
they showed up right when I needed them
and so like that made you turn around
I to be honest I don't know I mean like
it felt it now it feels more like a
miracle like oh wow I had no concept of
what I was turning around for
I'm not like close necessarily to my
neighbors generally I live in the middle
of nowhere Texas on a you know parcel of
land where I can't see who's on either
side of my house and yet on that day for
whatever reason that was like that was
the Instinct that was the tug there's a
lot a lot of what I end up writing in
the book is about
trusting The Voice trusting you know
whether it's Glennon Doyle's definition
of knowing or voice of God or Intuition
or gut but like there have been plenty
of times in these last two years
where there was something that was
tugging and that was an intuition that
had a sense of what was necessary for me
to do that I didn't consciously have an
appreciation for
and now that that voice was presenting
itself was like okay I'm gonna try this
I'm gonna say yes to this even though I
don't know why you've got one voice
though telling you you're a loser
everything is gone and lost and another
voice telling you to do something that
ends up being good for you how do you
differentiate
well I mean I first have to give credit
to a therapist that does work in self
right I in having lost identity attempt
to find someone who might help me find
who I am and I did this work inside of
something called internal family systems
where I himself my voice of inside of my
head or my emotions are parts
and the way that I am able to then
develop a relationship between self and
these parts
allows me to not be them so the first
part with the voice is all right you got
a voice in your head some of it's true
some of it's [ __ ] okay how do you
differentiate well first you have to say
I'm Not The Voice
that voice that's speaking is not me I
am the witness to the voice in a very
untethered Soul Michael Singer kind of
way I am not the voice I'm I'm I'm
watching The Voice I'm listening to the
voice it's my job then as The Listener
to do the investigative work of
understanding which of the things that
are being represented are real like how
many of them are fact-based
evidence-based is there any reason to
question The Voice
and a lot of the things inside of like
why we believe what we believe or why we
do the things we do come back to
programming that the voice is echoing
and so if we were raised in a
patriarchal society or we were raised
inside of a certain religious belief
where we have parents or family of
origin that believe a certain way
that voice often is the echo of
something that existed from when we're
five years old and the question that I
have to go back and ask is well did the
people who were The Originators of that
story have credibility
like do they have credibility generally
and oftentimes they do you believe
things usually because they've come from
someone of authority that's important in
your life that you love or crave love
from and that you for whatever reason
have put on a pedestal or respect but
just because someone at some point in
your life had credibility doesn't mean
that they have credibility on that topic
or that there's even relevance
necessarily for their opinion that maybe
right I was born in 75 my parents were
good people they meant well a thing that
they were programming into me when I was
five in 1980
may not have practical relative to when
it was you know good then application in
2021 likely doesn't
and going back and questioning if that
story that was told then is still a
credible story today is part of how when
you hear the voice
and that [ __ ] side of the voice is
chirping you get to go and asks where
did this voice come from I'm not the
voice I'm the witness to it and does it
actually have a credible connection to
anything that has practical application
in my life today
and so utility becomes the guide as
you're assessing all these different
voices basically yeah utility but also
and this will sound crazy because when
it was described to me as a thing to do
I thought it crazy and then I just
started doing it I actually will name
these feelings that I have and invite
them to sit at an imaginary table inside
of my psyche and have a conversation
with them and it works because you make
them the other and not yourself yeah and
so as a for example I have anxiety as a
thing that has Clark
Clark who is you know the opposite of
Superman I was gonna say I have to ask
of course no but yeah Clark who is the
opposite of Superman is a a thing and
I'm talking like situational anxiety not
clinical anxiety like when I get anxious
I used to try and mute the anxiety I
used to try and push it away I would
become a dick to people whatever it was
I was not great with anxiety and now
Clark shows up
I get to sit Clark at this table have
this conversation Clark for what reason
do you believe yourself to be here and
Clark right as a part inside of me
believes himself to be serving a helpful
role right so Clark doesn't realize he's
a negative emotion Clark thinks ah I'm
here for a reason and then my job as the
Observer of Clark having shown up is to
sit him down at the table and ask why
why are you here and most often Clark
shows up in my life because there is
something in my life that has enough
ambiguity around it that a simple plan
or even in some instances a more complex
plan but a plan being applied in that
ambiguous part of my life would give
Clark permission to leave because his
job in having drawn my focus to the area
is done he's here as a Helper and so in
a crazy way not that like I celebrate
anxious moments or Clark's arrival I've
changed the way I see Clark or anxiety
as a negative thing and more as a clue
oh this is Intel information is being
presented to me and if I can sit down
and have a conversation with it I might
get to the bottom of why he's here
if you capture substantial amount of
life
your very presence will become a
significant life
otherwise you will become a mediocre
life this is the important thing it's
not the knowledge you gather in your
head it's not the muscle that you gather
in your body it's the life