Kind: captions
Language: en
[Music]
Robert Greene welcome back to the show
thanks for having me Tom I think this is
my fourth time I think you're right so
for the people out there who believe
that their life is boring
and that they're wasting it what trap
have they fallen into and what advice do
you have for them to get out of that
sense
well you were talking to me about we
were talking earlier about diet and
problems with your health and you're
saying get it the root cause
so you have to get at the root cause of
your boredom and most often you're
looking at it superficially you're
thinking
I just don't have enough stimulation in
my life I need to travel more I need to
get rid of my girlfriend or boyfriend
and find a new relationship my career is
bothering me I need to change jobs
that's the superficial way of dealing
with the problem that's deeper you have
to look at yourself and you have to see
the possible root causes of what is
making you bored a lot of it is the fact
that you are looking for external
stimulation whereas looking Inward and
seeing who you are and what drives you
and what your motivations are what makes
you different you were talking about
diet and how all the intricacies and how
each person responds to Foods
differently and it's very inexact
science well you are an individual and
you have your own little weirdness and
everything about you is different and
you have all these little grains inside
of you that react differently to things
you don't know who you are you're
alienated from yourself you're alienated
from your nature
you're finding career paths that don't
suit you just like I might be eating
things that don't suit me I'm sorry to
keep going back to that no right you're
getting in you're involved with people
that don't suit you you don't know who
you are you don't know your core your
essence you don't know what it's really
excites you what Abraham Maslow calls
impulse voices you have these little
voices inside of you that are saying I
like this I love this this is what
excites me you're not listening to me
that's drowned out by social media by
your parents by everybody else so you
don't know who you are and because of
that you choose things that aren't right
for you and when you choose things that
aren't right for you you're not engaged
emotionally and when you're not engaged
emotionally you get bored and you get
restless and you reach for gotta travel
to Bali got to start playing the guitar
I gotta quit my job I gotta go find a
new you know a model to start dating or
whatever
you don't it it doesn't it ends up like
you do it and for a week or two it's
exciting and then it doesn't lead a need
to anything lasting and then you you're
bored and you're restless and you go on
to the next thing it's exactly what I'm
writing about right now in my book on
the supply I'm just quoting the chapter
I just wrote I love that so I actually
didn't I mean I know that you're writing
about the sublime I had no idea that it
was about that specifically no how could
you know true and in fact I I want the
the viewers to hear that I am desperate
for your next book to come out I really
do think of you as a legend man
re-reading the daily laws and prep for
this I am freaked out by how accurately
you get a certain aspect of the Human
Condition
so with that in mind is it that people
don't have the balls to look at who they
really are is it just that things are
getting drowned out and they don't know
how to create the silence like why is it
so hard for people to understand
themselves
well it's hard and our default position
is to take the path of least resistance
about what is easy you know so right now
and I should hardly talk but peop people
are extremely interested in drugs right
in like psychoactive drugs mushrooms
trust me I did a lot of that in my 20s I
have nothing against it right but you
have the capacity in you
to be continually high on life to almost
have a drug-like effect we have these
remarkable senses our ability to pick up
colors etc etc you could be continually
tripping you don't need drugs your brain
is wired for this kind of this kind of
interaction with life that doesn't feel
to me so how do we tap into that well
because it takes effort whereas popping
a pill where it's just doing the easy
thing whereas looking at yourself and
introspecting requires effort and it
requires pain right because when I look
at myself as I do with my meditation
every morning oh God Robert you've got a
lot of problems man why these thoughts
keep popping up you think you're so
great but you're not so great your your
mind is veering towards these Petty
issues let's work on this right so my
meditation this morning this very
morning
I was thinking my problem Robert is you
don't let go you've got to let go and I
just kept repeating myself let go let go
let go every time a thought came in I
was like all right let go of it okay but
it was painful because you realize what
your what Your blocks are what your
limitations are what you're doing wrong
we don't want to face ourselves it's so
much easier to look externally to look
out in the world to find a guru or a
coach who will help you to find a book
that will help you to find a drug that
will help you to find some kind of to go
on online porn you know anything as
opposed to looking Inward and seeing who
you really are
yeah so looking Inward and seeing who
you are is definitely heavy it's
definitely hard it is also I would say
the thing that leads most assuredly to
success
now the reason that I say that is I have
found that by acknowledging my own
pettinesses my insecurities all of that
I can better understand other people
when I can better understand other
people I can better navigate the world
yeah
so the method that I use to figure that
out is when I feel something
uncomfortable
I one I distrust my emotions so I don't
just think oh I have an emotion I should
enact it I'm like that may have a dark
underbelly
uh my wife and I were arguing and she
says something that just makes me so
pissed off and I'm like what the [ __ ]
how dare you like I cannot believe that
you would say whatever it is that she
said and what I learned early in our
marriage was any time I had that impulse
she had tripped an insecurity of mine
right but if I didn't know that I was
insecure about it I would get the
surface level emotion it felt so real it
just felt like she had said something
she shouldn't say and I would never take
the time to figure out why shouldn't she
say that and so the emotion gave me
righteous indignation I would push back
on hey why'd you say that and never get
into oh I see I'm so super insecure
about this thing which is what's
triggering the emotion so it's what she
and I call arguing about the T so you're
at the surface level going back to your
early point you stop at the the part
that's easy to identify I am angry
because I am angry then I just do what
the anger tells me to do which is push
back shut her down get her to take it
back whatever rather than go whoa like
why does that bother me so much but in
understanding why it bothers me then I'm
like okay now I see this as an
insecurity so when I see somebody get
angry at me I'm like oh [ __ ] they're
insecure about this that's interesting
and so now let's drill into and why are
you insecure I mean look there are
certain conversations where you're never
going to ask that but it's it gives a
lot more clarity
which is why I asked like I think it's
that
the reason people don't identify what's
really going on inside of them is
twofold one
it takes a certain level of
understanding about the human animal
just generically about the way emotions
come about Etc and then
testicular fortitude to look at
something and say oh man I'm not as cool
as I wish I were yes right
so how do we get beyond that
well um you know you don't have to read
books about human nature or or make it a
study just look at yourself and you'll
find out all that you need to know right
you'll know that you have the flaws that
you naturally think you see in other
people
so I always find when people are
particularly angry about some character
trait in me or others they're actually
more often than not projecting
unconsciously they have the same trait
so God damn it that person's a
narcissist well you're not that's your
way of kind of hiding from yourself your
own narcissism
so
by looking at yourself you're inevitably
going to see your flaws and your
limitations which was the whole subject
of the laws of human nature we have
these negative qualities built into the
way we are we evolved as human beings
right
but we evolved a million years ago under
circumstances that are completely
different now that don't have any
relationship that aren't functional to
the high-tech worlds that we live in and
so we have a lot of qualities that
constantly create problems for ourselves
okay you think that it's other people
that have these problems you think other
people are aggressive other people are
passive aggressive other people are
self-absorbed no you have all of these
traits as well okay so it's painful
right and if you know one thing about
human beings if there could be one law
about human behavior and it's true I
suppose of every animal we avoid
anything painful and we Veer to what is
pleasurable or easy okay so how do you
overcome that that's your million dollar
question that you're asking sometimes
you have to hit rock bottom sometimes
you have to go nothing is working in my
life I'm miserable I'm depressed my
career isn't going in the right way okay
maybe I'm the source of it and when you
hit rock bottom you're willing to take
anything the pain of looking at yourself
isn't maybe as bad as the whole that
you've dug yourself into okay the other
way is you don't necessarily have to hit
rock bottom but you are really motivated
to change your life right you you're
ambitious you want to be successful you
want to have some degree of power or a
social animal you want to get along with
people you want to know how to
navigate these complicated social
environments that we inhabit right and
so it's not working for me right now I'm
getting in my own way okay so I have to
step back and I have to look at myself
and I have to study who I am and I have
to do some heavy work on myself
now
nobody says that's easy if it were easy
everybody would be doing it and we'd be
living in Paradise but we obviously
don't right do you think it's a an
intellectual level that people have to
be at in order to do that or is there a
process that people can run to figure
this out I'm a big believer that
intellect is vastly overrated that we
are emotional animals the problem is
emotional I hate to keep saying it but
I'm about to be giving a talk in a few
weeks and this is exactly what I'm
giving my talk about which is you have
to change your orientation right your
problem is emotional not intellectual
our first
uh when we're having a problem our first
because what I'm I'm giving a talk about
is how to deal with change in the world
whenever we think that we we don't
understand something or having a problem
we think that knowledge is the answer we
have to accumulate more knowledge it's
intellectual we have no more data we
have to read studies we have to
understand these things better the
problem is emotional the reason you
can't deal with change or you're not
looking at yourself is you have
emotional blocks you're full of fear not
returning away from the emotion is it
that we're turning away from the emotion
that causes the problem like why is
being emotional
stalling people out it's not being
emotional at stalling people out it's
the kind of emotions that you that are
kind of blocking you so there are
emotions that are very positive
like confidence like boldness like
fearlessness like openness to experience
adventurousness these are all brilliant
expansive emotions I contrast expansive
emotions with constricting emotions ego
pettiness fear impatience that close you
down and narrow the scope of what you're
willing to try out okay so
fear I compare it to a tree fear is the
root of all of this and at the branches
we find impatience we find ego
you know we feel all of this The Human
Condition or the fear of change or the
inability to change
well you know we are anxious creatures
by Nature it's kind of built into our
system as well and so we're kind of
primed to feel fear
Etc
but these things are subtle
so
you're not aware that fear is the source
of your problems right because you're
not attuned to who you are you think
that it's
um because I don't know enough about the
world or other people are blocking me or
I would wasn't I didn't get a good
enough education blah blah blah blah
blah right it's hard to see the effects
of fear
because it's very subtle it's going to
block you in ways that you're never
really aware it's like this kind of
poisonous gas that you can't see and
it's seeping into you so getting back to
when I'm talking about how you deal with
change which is an incredibly important
issue particularly in a world now that's
changing so quickly right
you have to be able to be open to what's
happening in the present moment people
with events etc etc
but because of fear you're slipping
further and further behind you're lit
locked in the past you think that ideas
that you had are exactly what's
happening you're not paying attention to
the things that are around you because
pay attention is hard and it's difficult
and it means letting go of some of your
most cherished ideas about the world and
just being open to experience
so with people for instance let's say
I'm working with you Tom right and we've
been working together for a year or so
I have a certain impression of you right
probably from our first interactions and
that impression kind of freezes in my
mind and as I'm dealing with you I'm
always sort of seeing this kind of image
that I have of you
and I'm not paying attention to who you
are in the moment how you are changing
how things are adapting maybe my first
impression was wrong maybe you're
actually quite different but that takes
some courage that takes some effort to
be alive in the moment to say I don't
know
I don't know Tom bilia I don't really
know who he is I don't know what
motivates his behavior I need to pay
attention but the idea that I know the
answer
actually stems from Fear
So In This Moment of radical change
so I think there's two things at play
and be very interested to see what you
think of this so I think we're living
through a very
um weird moment as the the Chinese
um proverb and I'm sure what to call it
but may you live in interesting times
supposedly meant as a curse I think
we're living in interesting times and I
mean that as a curse and uh when I think
about it I think that a lot of what's
playing out is some change is bad
and and I consider myself hyper
malleable it's one of either my greatest
strengths or my greatest weakness I'm
not entirely sure in fact when you
started off by saying you have a hard
time letting go I have the exact
opposite problem uh I find it very easy
to let go of anything everything my
identity all of it like it to a point
where it may border on not useful but
anyway
so you've got we're living in a time
where I don't think all change is good
and then on top of that I think that
when people feel weak no when people are
weak they have a feeling that ah like
things are not going the way that I want
they don't understand that their fear is
coming from weakness and actual
inability to be effective in the world
and because they have the will to power
in the Nietzsche way they begin grabbing
onto whatever tool they have at their
disposal and right now the thing that
people are using is shame and shouting
people down effectively and so mix and
this is super complicated with social
media and all that but those two things
and I'm just beginning to like think
through this so thank you for letting me
think out loud but those feel like the
the twin heads of this Dragon right now
what are the twin heads again some
change is bad so some things that are
happening are actually we're going in
the wrong direction and then some of the
um lashing out that people are doing is
because they are weak and they don't
know a positive way to navigate the
world to manifest the will to power in a
way that has to do with personal
responsibility getting better at moving
through the world so instead they use
the easier tools which are shouting
people down which makes them feel
powerful but in reality is fear of their
ideas but they don't know how to get
stronger in their own convictions they
don't know how to be open-minded to
learn and so new ideas scare them some
ideas actually are bad but they feel
weak and so now they're just lashing out
somewhat blindly
yeah of course
um some changes are not good
but in in the larger picture of it
change I believe
has an inherently positive quality to it
because the worst thing that can happen
to a culture to a civilization is to be
in these static moments so let's say
we're going through a moment where the
political correctness where the social
justice Warrior is in the ascendant and
I agree with you it's a negative it's a
kind of a negative change in a way right
well first of all you have to understand
these changes so even if they're
negative it's not that you Embrace
everything that's going on in the world
that you understand them on on a deep
level but let's say that this is a
negative change that is occurring in the
world but it's occurring for a purpose
it's a reaction against something that
occurred earlier on it's not going to
last have a larger picture of history
and of the world nothing that we humans
do lasts very long and particularly now
in this accelerated moment of change in
10 years from now the Generation Z and
the new generation coming up they're
going to be so [ __ ] tired part of my
language of all of the true virtue
signaling and everything they're going
to go in the opposite direction it's
going to swing back and forth and back
and forth back and forth right so don't
get so caught up in the moment and think
that this is this is like where we're
heading like a hundred years from now
we're all going to be like these Grand
inquisitors that the social justice
movement will reach this insane endpoint
we've had these moments before in
history where people get extremely tight
and constricted and upset and uptight
and worried about things and angry and
taking it out on everybody else we've
been through it so many times before so
have some perspective that it won't last
okay do you worry at all though that
with the historical lens on it also has
killed a lot of people this is the first
time in my life where I'm like I have a
feeling that there are going to be
consequences to the way that Society is
going now I couldn't be more open to
realizing that I'm wrong so if you have
an Insight that I missed you mean people
being canceled in their careers being no
I mean being executing being beheaded
for it uh yes I do mean I don't I'm not
thinking literally of guillotines though
that has been one of the historical ways
that it's played out but like I am I am
very aware of
the truth of the statement all that evil
needs is for good men to do nothing and
so it is right now it feels like
division is running just in opposite
directions and as somebody that has uh
who does a lot of time talking on camera
I think a lot about okay how do I how do
I grapple with some of the issues and
then what is the way to sort of present
ideas to people that will hopefully
gently nudge them in a more useful
Direction so I think all about usability
it's why I love your book so much
because you're like if I was going to
boil you down really simplistically I
would say your core messages deal with
the world the way that it is not the way
that you wish it were
and that idea is very powerful to me so
looking through the lens of okay what is
useful what is the
way that I can behave that is useful so
you started by saying no thyself I think
that's incredibly useful one it helps
you navigate your own emotions two it
helps you understand other people okay
so that advice is good because it's
incredibly useful then I look at the
world running in opposite directions
algorithms social media exacerbating
that problem the rapidity with which
ideas burn through Society is really
fascinating
and historically humans tend to go so
wrong before they swing back in the
other direction that millions of people
do die with a high and distressing
degree of frequency now do I think that
we're right on the precipice no I think
that we have plenty of time and space to
calm everybody down but I do think for
the first time in my life anyway here in
the U.S it's worth going hey this can
rev up to the point of being actually
dangerous yeah well I don't disagree
with you but then the question is what
do you do about it
I mean you can't change like whole
groups of people in Mass like people
like they used to think in communist
countries where you could change Human
Nature by creating a different system we
know that doesn't work unless you happen
to believe be a communist and you
believe that's possible so it has to
occur on an individual level right and
how do you change that in a culture
where it is where we're engineered to be
angry and emotional where all of the
social media that people spend
85 percent of their lives on I don't
know I'm just taking that number out of
my you know what way too low but yeah
it's
[Laughter]
um you know it's engineered for that
right you know just to give an example
of something that really gets under much
to show my own outrage
um you know on my on my feed I get these
these notices from next door you know
what next door is right and everything
is about crime and about and I know in
my neighborhood there's some crime but
but if you read next door it's it's like
you just sense that there's everywhere
like there's murderers next door to you
like rapists are all around you right it
freaks you out the algorithms are there
they choose those posts to put in your
feed they're gonna get you emotional
that's just next door Facebook is a
master of it you know Instagram they all
just use these algorithms to hit your
most basic emotions right how do you
fight that well you have to fight that
on an individual level you have to tell
people you are being manipulated right
and in order to say that you're being
manipulated you're hitting their ego
you're telling them
you're not as in control of yourself as
you think you are and I know this from
myself I know that I am manipulated by
these different algorithms but it means
I have to have that kind of humility to
say I am a person who can be manipulated
but most people go around thinking oh
I'm not manipulative I'm in control of
my thoughts I know what my feelings are
I behave according to what I want to do
[ __ ] you are continually being
manipulated by these various these
various platforms okay you can't change
it as an individual I can't go and get
Mark Zuckerberg to suddenly stop doing
all these dastardly things it's
impossible right so what do you do you
have to try and awaken people one by one
by one that's sort of why I write books
like the laws of human nature to waken
you up and it's an incredible theme in
that book we might hate it but I've hit
that again and again about how we are
being manipulated by social media how
it's playing to our most Basic Instincts
how Envy which is a most powerful human
emotion it defines Us in so many ways
why Envy
why Envy well it's just one of the 18
chapters but why why did I choose that
no why is it so powerful
because it is wired inside of us
our brains work by comparing different
pieces of information on the most basic
level that's how our brains our
neocortex operate a piece of information
comes up we compare it to something else
our minds operate through continual
comparisons when you create a social
animal whose survival depends on getting
along with other people that comparison
devices continually in operation with
other people
what do they have that I don't have why
are they getting that attention that I
don't have why are they getting these
these gifts and these rewards and I
don't have any of them it was a problem
that existed in hunter-gathering
societies if you've ever studied
primitive cultures you come upon a very
strange custom of theirs which is
the moment anyone receives a gift of
food or anything but it's the first
thing they do they give it to someone
else
it's like a ritual because you're
deathly afraid that if you keep that
gift people are going to have envy and
they will murder you right so it's it's
a continual ritual
so it's bred into us even chimpanzees
are known to feel Envy like if another
chimp gets a delicious piece of grape
and the other one has a cucumber he's
like wow what the hell what's going on
here that study is hilarious as you can
find on YouTube for anybody watching
it's insane yeah so it's who we are but
what do you think social media is it's
an engine of Envy it's making you
continually aware of what other people
have and what you don't have oh he's
vacationing in Bali oh he's dating a
supermodel etc etc look at my poor
pitiful life well that person who's
they're only posting the most positive
things they're not showing they're
they're kind of unhappy their misery of
their daily life but you're feeling Envy
so how do you overcome that you have to
first be aware that you're feeling envy
that it is motivating you that you feel
this and that means what we bring you
back to looking at yourself
so we can't fight these negative changes
in a global context we have to hit
individual people we have to awaken
their own their Consciousness we have to
make them look Inward and the best thing
I can do is for me personally is to
write books about this I don't know any
other way so we're making them look
Inward and we're we want them to
understand that they're having an
emotional problem not a logic problem
which I think is a really interesting
Insight I think so in business I realize
pretty early on in my career that the
thing that separated me from other
people is I could self-soothe so I was
stung by whatever happened whether it
was somebody chastising me or
embarrassing myself or being embarrassed
on purpose by a narcissist or whatever
the situation may be
and
it broke most people like it would
derange them it would push them
underground what would the either
they're embarrassing themselves being
chastised somebody going out of their
way to embarrass them all the power
games that you talk about and and you
and you're able to not to soothe
yourself and I could soothe myself it
still hurt I still went through the same
emotion but I was so obsessed with my
goals
that I would just ask myself
what is going to move me forward the
truth is hitting your career goals is
not easy you have to be willing to go
the extra mile to stand out and do hard
things better than anybody else but
there are 10 steps I want to take you
through that will 100x your efficiency
so you can crush your goals and get back
more time into your day you'll not only
get control of your time you'll learn
how to use that momentum to take on your
next big goal to help you do this I've
created a list of the 10 most impactful
things that any High achiever needs to
dominate and you can download it for
free by clicking the link in today's
description right my friend back to
today's episode well that's a new that's
an amazing example of the process that
we're talking about and the power behind
it I couldn't have chosened anything
better in fact I don't think I could do
anything better than what you do because
I try and do what you're talking about
and I don't even know if I've quite
reached that level but that's exactly
what the point I'm trying to make and
that you are illustrating here that when
you look at yourself when you look at
what really is driving your behavior and
let's first admit
that we really don't know who we are and
that there's a core that we will never
understand right we can't really see
completely into ourselves we can't
really totally understand what motivates
our Behavior there's an element I'm a
big believer in humility you may not
believe it because I write these books
that don't seem humble at all but the
humility to say there are parts of me
that I'm never going to understand okay
that's good that's all right that's a
powerful thing because the idea that you
know yourself so completely and I've
gone through this process and I know who
I am and I've got these problems it's
[ __ ] you don't know who you are
there's always a core that you'll never
ever understand that's a beautiful thing
in life because it means Mysteries are
great they're fantastic it means you
have more work to do but all we're
talking about is increasing that margin
of knowledge so let's say in the end
just to pick another number out of my
you know what seventy percent of
ourselves we're never going to know
right for most people it's 95 or 90 8 or
99 if you can lower that number a little
bit if you can have a deeper
understanding if you can understand that
what you're doing is that it's all about
your ego that you really want to be
right and not about getting ahead or
having success or power if you can learn
these little things
the world opens up for you because what
power is really about in life people
always ask me for definitions is it's
about having more options okay so when
you're so narrowed down inside yourself
about you know you have the right answer
you know that you know you're going to
argue with people and everyone else is
wrong etc etc you're you're limiting
what you can do in life you can only
take path A or B because that's what
you're Geared for that's what's going to
soothe your ego that's going to make you
feel better as you thought when you're
trying to shout to get the right Echo
okay
but when you let go when you're open to
the fact that you don't know who you are
that there are other things that could
be going on and then you figure out that
ego is tripping me up Suddenly doors
open I can do c I can do D I can do E I
can do it use just said where I can stop
I can learn more I can shut my own head
the voice in my head and I can pay
attention I can learn the world starts
opening up you start having options you
have maneuverability you can do
different things in life things open up
for you that's all I'm ever asking for
people is to get out of these kind of
narrow Corners that they back themselves
into
yeah the fact that people don't know
themselves uh I didn't really think I
didn't think almost at all about it
until I got into business and then it
was like okay why do some people succeed
and other people don't
and started thinking about okay so the
people that stop at the level of emotion
they're unable to walk a path of
usefulness and so that's a big thing for
me I'm always hungry for myself for sure
because I'm not above this at all but
I'm constantly trying to optimize for
how do I get my ego and my emotion out
of the way so I can figure out what's
truly useful move forward but certainly
wanting people on my team as well that
are doing that that are looking at the
not to make it clinical but they're
looking at the data like did this work
whether it's you know the 48 Laws of
Power and it's like oh the story that
you open with
um about where you were thriving in your
job
but your boss hated you and you were
like what the hell am I doing wrong and
then you realize ah never outshine the
master it's like you ran an experiment
in that environment did killing it at
your job allow you to move forward in
the company yes or no no oh [ __ ] then
there's something I'm not understanding
and so getting people to take that
feedback assess go Inward and go okay
what didn't work going back to the idea
of root cause medicine
Why didn't it work oh I see people are
insecure I triggered her insecurities
okay now I get it rule number one never
outshine the master it's interesting
reading your books is like uh
it's it's a marker in your life
depending on what stories jump out to me
what I remember what laws and like oh
[ __ ] I've been dealing with that
recently uh it's really interesting but
so getting people to do that so
Effectiveness did I get the result that
I was looking for and that was the big
thing going back to that story of in
work where I was arguing for my ideas
because I wanted to feel a certain way
it was like oh wow I didn't even
understand what my real goal was I had
the goal that I would say because it was
what I was supposed to want or like some
part of me did want it
but I was totally blind to but I
actually steer my life towards what
makes me feel smart and I was like wow
that was like being slapped in the face
right and so once I understood that then
I could really begin to navigate well
but I first had to Grapple with
Effectiveness right and coming back to
the the the thing that I'm obsessed with
right now and I've been dying to talk to
you like the first person I thought of
when I started reading this so I managed
to make it to 46 without ever being
um ever encountering knowingly Nietzsche
and so I'm taking uh the Great Courses
on Niche I don't know what it what it
was the idea of the will to power and I
think something in me had an intuitive
understanding that the moment we're
living through right now is this will to
power so I've never understood the woke
movement
because it doesn't align with the
natural thing that I do which is
um it is people that have found a very
useful tool to gain control of a
situation that I was blind to
and once I started learning about
Nietzsche it was like a puzzle piece
clicked into place that we have this
innate drive for what I'll say power
because I think or uh control because I
think power is gonna it's a word with a
lot of baggage
so but people have this innate drive to
control the environment themselves
whatever but they want to to be in
control and they're if you aren't able
to
in full view of everybody out compete
you still have this drive for control
and then people go underground
it's the whole theme of the 48 Laws of
Power correct what I wrote about in the
preface to it
yeah
um the thing about Nietzsche because you
know he's my he's my idol he's really oh
why do people have such a dark view of
him I don't know him well enough to
understand why all of my books I was
reading him when I was 16 17 years old
and oftentimes what happens in your life
people that you read when you were that
age and you're now I'm now in my 60s I'm
sorry to say wow and and congratulations
by the way thank you uh 46 seems like a
kid
um
you know things that I read when I was
18. I don't know I don't like anymore
ninja is like a through line I'll never
get bored with him I'll never Tire with
him he's just absolutely the greatest
um but his will to power is something
that got misunderstood it's like it's
not necessarily what you think it is
it's
and the concept of mocked or power in
Nietzsche is it's controlled it's more
like expansion that's what the word
really means and he takes it down to a
biological level that every organism
wants to expand its Circle wants to
expand its environment wants to have can
more mobility in the world that it's in
right so it's a native biological need
that all creatures have for expanding
themselves for having more influence so
what it means for a human is to have
more power and more influence and able
to move in Greater circles to have more
control yes control is part of it okay
but people when they have this sort of
negative view of power damn it that
makes me so angry it triggers all of my
buttons I'm sorry to say because I am an
emotional creature I have to admit
because everything is about power right
the idea that you don't want power that
you say oh I'm not interested in that
I'm I'm up all about truth Injustice and
what's good for Humanity that's a form
of power I'm sorry to say you are
seeking power you are seeking power over
other people you know some of the most
heinous crimes have been committed by
people who think they're doing good for
others right okay but you want power
right and I look at academics who have
these very lengthy very powerful
arguments about the world etc etc it's
all about power they don't want to admit
it they want to admit it's just about
ideas it's just about intellectuals
about you know the realm of of
exchanging ideas [ __ ] it's about
power you want the sense of expansion
you want people to love you you want you
love that feeling that what you're doing
is influencing others that you have hit
the right answer
everything you do the everything you
breathe in is a desire for power it's a
desire for expansion
look in the mirror and admit it and
let's get away from the negative
connotations that we have with it yes
power could be used for bad purposes but
as Malcolm X said you know absolute
power corrupts but powerlessness
corrupts even more
so the feeling that you don't have
anything that's so important so the
feeling that you don't have any power is
even more corrupt because it makes you
passive aggressive it turns you into
these Warriors who think they're doing
something and you're not even aware of
what you're really after so
that was the whole point of the 48 Laws
of Power it was an inflection moment in
our culture and our history where I was
getting really upset with all of the
political correctness and all of the
squishy self-help books out there right
and trying to appeal to our good side
and etc etc and things like ambition or
power were ugly words man I hated that I
thought it was so hypocritical because
my experience in Hollywood for instance
where I dealt with a lot of film
directors and powerful people is they
would project this image of being
extremely liberal and for all the good
causes but they were wanted power they
really wanted power and they would often
treat people in a poor fashion despite
being for all the great causes and the
hypocrisy just really wrangled me and
that's sort of why I wrote the 48 Laws
of Power to expose that but I want
people to admit
if you were saying look at yourself that
you have this desire for power it can
twist you you can you can look for it in
wrong ways most definitely
but at least come to Jesus come to
Muhammad and admit that that's who you
are that that's what's motivating you in
your behavior and from there we can
start seeing well maybe they're more
constructive forms of power that I can
go after it's so interesting because
when I was
maybe 25 something like that 26 maybe I
bought the domain seeking power oh and I
20 years ago yeah very long time ago so
a couple years after my book came out
but I'm not saying unfortunately I had
not read it yet I wish I had you would
have saved me a lot of suffering but
um I that felt true to who I was I was
like I come seeking power and it was it
felt so light and so expansive and so
positive so it's weird to me that the
word power is taking on like these dark
evil connotations
but I was like I want to get better I
want to get more powerful and my whole
youth I had felt so weak and getting
into business I had finally encountered
the idea that you could get
better than other people you could
outperform them and in outperforming
them you could transform your life and
you could do things that other people
couldn't do
I wish unfortunately Kobe Bryant didn't
exist back then in any way that I was
aware of anyway uh and he has this whole
idea of booze don't block dunks and that
you can get so good at something that no
matter how much people hate you want to
stop you whatever you can outplay them
and you can still dunk over them and I
was like oh my God like this is so
amazing so all I have to do is get good
at things now to your point if you're
using that for evil I've got no time for
that but in your own life if it's you
know whether in business if you don't
acknowledge that it's a competition
you're going to get eaten alive so
recognizing okay like this is a
competition I'm not out to hurt other
people but I'm absolutely out to
outperform them and life became way more
fun when I realized oh I can come
seeking power I can sit at somebody's
feet and learn from them and want to
grow more powerful and that's why like
this whole moment that we're living
through now
feels like the wrong way to go about the
change that people want to see in the
world because it's like if you own okay
I I want this outcome and to get that
outcome I need to Garner a set of skills
I need to get better at my performance
and then I can do it when it's out in
the open and you're taking personal
responsibility in fact here's the the
easiest way to sum it up
as garyvee says there are two ways to
build the tallest building in town you
can knock everybody else's building down
or you can build a building that's
taller than this great and if you're
spending time knocking people's
buildings down which is the energy I
feel coming off of a lot of people
that's not interesting to me and people
do it in the name of oh no no like they
were just their building violated some
invisible code you know where that comes
from it comes from Envy
Envy is a huge mode uh motive motivator
of people's behavior now so the drive to
bring other people down is is really
truly motivated by feelings of Envy
inferiority that other people are better
than you are so it's it's a leveling
process that's going down well we want
to bring everybody down to the same
level nobody is excellent nobody's
accomplished anything oh they just
accomplished great things because they
had money or because their parents sent
them to Yale or Dartmouth or because you
know they had all this privilege you
know we're all you know so it's like
bring everyone down but I think that
it's Envy is is the root cause of it so
going back to the where we started that
people are bored they feel like they're
wasting their life but you were saying
you know wherever you go there you are
that this is an internal problem you
have to master your emotions
how do you begin to tile that together
for somebody that wants out of that they
want to love their life and feel like
they're making the most of it you talked
about like we actually have the ability
to get a drug-like effect by looking
Inward and
and what is it and improving ourselves
and just falling in love being honest
about what we actually like and pursuing
it like is is that an act of the will to
expansion
what what's driving now well
um you know there are many ways to look
at that it's
um but in Mastery I I my way of
describing it is
a very high form of fulfillment because
I like to think of fulfillment over
happiness happiness seems like a kind of
an immediate thing where you know
getting some kind of stimulation or
drinking whiskey will make you happy
but it won't make you fulfilled
fulfilling fulfillment is a longer
lasting emotion it comes from
wow I spent two years doing that I made
what I went out to set out to create I
feel fulfilled it's a wonderful feeling
it's the greatest high in the world I
think okay so my one Avenue to get
towards what you're saying is through
your work now I'm not saying it's
everything because I understand
relationships and people and children
all these things are very important okay
but I'm looking at through your work to
reach a level of feeling of that sense
of power and expansion and fulfilled and
when you have that feeling you don't
want to hurt other people you don't
there's no need for it there's no need
to push people around for no reason you
feel comfortable with yourself all right
so the number one thing the most
important thing is to figure out the
path towards that kind of fulfillment
through your work or through your career
right now some people don't like that
I've been criticized before I went once
and gave talk at Stanford and they were
thinking that that was just so elitist
like fulfillment well through your work
like this one woman said my father was a
truck driver his whole life are you
saying that he wasn't fulfilled you know
that kind of criticism what'd you say to
that I said well that's actually very
elitist on your part you're saying that
that's all your father was ever capable
of achieving maybe you know if he was
happy being a truck driver if that
excited him if that's what he was
destined to create if he felt
comfortable with that fine I have no
problem but a lot of people in very
working class jobs aren't necessarily so
happy their lives are full of routine
there's no kind of intellectual
challenge to it and if you know anything
about the human animal in the human
brain reverse our brains are voracious
we need constant stimulation so if
you're driving a truck all day
that's all you have if that's fulfilling
for you maybe yes
being a good driver and getting there on
time and delivering Goods maybe that is
a road to fulfillment but maybe your
father was frustrated maybe he was
drinking or something maybe it didn't
really fulfill him so how can you say
that people just should just settle for
what they have right because a lot of
people aren't happy
and they may think they're happy they
may kind of they may kind of deceive
themselves but deep down inside they're
frustrated and that's why they turn to
having Affairs that's why they turn into
alcohol that's why they turn to drugs
that's why they turn to addictions etc
etc etc there are all kinds of signs of
that so I'm not necessarily assuming
that your father was fulfilled by his
truck driving I could be that's how I
answered her she wasn't happy with that
okay anyway
um so some people criticize this notion
of work but no we are animals that love
to make things
somebody wants to find us as homo Faber
the animal that likes to build things to
make things that's our hands we became
powerful through making tools Etc also
by being social animals don't get me
wrong but we're creatures that are
designed to make things to build things
to create right and I don't I'm not an
elitist I think every human being on the
planet has that desire
right they wanted that fulfillment and I
don't care if they're born poor and
they're published or they're homeless
they still have that need and they have
that capacity to become a master in what
they do so the most important thing in
life is to figure out what is your path
what is the kind of work that will bring
you that sense of fulfillment okay so
some people it's being an entrepreneur
it's being in business other people it's
the Arts or It's Entertainment of some
sort other people it's writing it's
words it's literature other people is
the body it's Sports it's dance it's
whatever I don't care I don't have a
hierarchy I don't say writing books is
better than building wood things when
things with your hands it's all the same
to me right it's all a form of a skill
it all can lead to Mastery but you have
to find out what that is and then you
have to build towards it and when you
reach that point let's just look at the
end point so in your 20s which is the
most important part of your life I think
really yeah I don't want to derail but
okay we should come back to that
it's what you're discovering yourself
it's where all the seeds are planted for
what's going to happen to you of course
they're planted in your earliest years
don't get me wrong but I do think that's
the most critical phase right you're
exploring you're trying things out
you're experimenting with different
careers
Etc
you're gaining skills because you're
learning you like you said you wanted to
learn right and then you're 32 33 and
you start a podcast a website your own
business
Etc and maybe it fails but you're
excited it's your own and then you learn
from it and then you create something
even better
man it's like the greatest feeling in
the world you don't need anything else
you know you've accomplished something
you've set a goal and you reached it it
is to me a feeling of high so when I
write a book
it's painful
there's a lot of pain involved stress
etc etc but man there's nothing in the
world I would give up I even had a
stroke probably because of that I
wouldn't give up any of that for that
sense of
I could look back I wrote that book I
can die tomorrow and I'm happy I did
what I thought I needed to do I reached
not all my potential but a good portion
of my potential
to me that is if everybody had that open
to them
then I think we would live in a much
better world if we live if people
knew that as a value and went towards it
and I think the greatest periods in
history
the kind of the golden eras we can look
at Athens we can look at Renaissance
Italy we could look at the 1920s in
America the Jazz here and all the great
cultural movements
pick your whatever period you like some
people like the 60s some people hate the
60s I don't care whatever you think is a
golden era they're era of richness of
diversity of all kinds of creative
people doing all kinds of interesting
things it's an openness and everyone is
experimenting and that this kind of
change it's brewing and experimentation
that's to me is a high point of human
culture and it comes from more and more
individuals doing taking this path that
I'm talking about do you have a math
equation for lack of a better word for
fulfillment
how would that be
a plus b yeah kind of so here I think
that so I agree with you so violently I
want to bite through the table uh go
ahead so I yeah it might not be the best
use of my teeth uh so I have a rough
formula of what I think leads to
fulfillment and I think about this a lot
so I'm always looking for somebody that
can help me refine but I think it goes
like this it has to be hard
and there's reasons for this from an
evolutionary standpoint but it has to be
hard it has to be something that you get
more energy from than it takes so it's
something that you inherently enjoy and
it has to be something that allows you
to transform your potential into skill
set and that skill set has to be
something that serves you and the group
if you do all of that you will be
fulfilled if any one of those pieces are
missing it's really hard it's something
you love you're improving your skill set
but it only serves you you won't be
fulfilled if all of it but it only
serves a group and not you you won't be
fulfilled it it seems to me that it has
to have all of those elements
yeah I mean I think there are people
unfortunately who get that fulfillment
without the group part do you do you
think they're actually fulfilled
yeah I mean um if you like artists who
write you do some kind of great art
but they're not necessarily the best
people in the world you know it might be
a total dick but if there are which I
think is its own punishment P.S but they
may find fulfillment in their art if
they get feedback from the group the
group has moved it's Sublime you know
and so there are creates the desired
feeling in that person they have
contributed to the group in my
estimation but if that same artist made
art and nobody gave a [ __ ] about it I
don't think they would feel fulfilled
well you know I don't want to split
hairs with you because you're largely
correct but I do I can't think of
examples of people who are ignored in
their lifetime and it was painful but
they knew they were right they knew they
had created something brilliant they
knew they had created some invention and
it was ignored and nobody cared and
nobody liked them and I think it was
Tesla Nikola Tesla yeah he was pretty
miserable yeah so despite all this
incredible [ __ ] being out of step with
your time is rough you are the shout and
the echo so even though when Einstein
was asked what's it like to be the most
brilliant man alive he said I don't know
you'll have to ask Nikola Tesla
despite that Tesla died very unhappy by
all accounts I obviously did not know
him certainly alone and broke and so
there was something was missing he could
never get I'm I'm definitely
psychoanalyzing somebody I have no right
to but I have a gut instinct that
because he could not figure out the echo
part of doing something in a way where
people reflected back that yes this is
amazingly valuable
that even though now we all reap the
benefits
was very little consolation you know I I
can't think of it because my mind is
slowing down but I was talking recently
with my wife about artists and composers
Etc who had no success in life she can
really yeah never sold any books their
music was ignored but my research of
them they they had just in the work
itself in the absorption of the mind and
composing This brilliant thing or
writing this thing they had that flow
yes so the pain is definitely there I'm
not arguing against you because they
said oh you might be right I mean I'm
utterly fast splitting hairs but the the
thing is is the sense of flow because
what happens is what makes you miserable
is your self-absorption in many ways
right the worst form of therapy is to
sit there and talk about your problems
the best Throne of therapy is to get
outside of yourself other people are
going to be like the record just skipped
for a lot of people go back the worst
form of therapy is talk therapy yeah
yeah I well I mean maybe it's not the
worst but it's not to me the most
productive therapy to just talk about
your problems really why
because it's like it's like accentuating
your self-absorption right whereas what
you need is to get outside of yourself
not in to all of your your problems now
of course I I'm contradicting myself
because I talked about the introspection
that's a different thing we're not
introspecting about my problems what my
parents did to me more and more oh I'm
so miserable blah blah blah I'm sure
there are forms of talking therapy that
are good so I shouldn't generalize that
but what I think I don't know something
feels intuitively right about this yeah
well I just wrote sorry I keep doing
that about
um this man people won't have heard of
him he's he's a Russian
Mystic whatever you want to call them
gurjeff who had these exercises but I
don't know
um one thing he taught his students was
to not vent your unpleasant emotions so
we had this exercise called
self-observation for you to go observe
yourself like you did in the most
deepest way not just your thoughts but
about your body and how your body and
your mind interact in this insane
continual blend there's no separation so
one kind of thought will affect your
body but a feeling in your gut will
affect your thinking you're all this
observe yourself observe yourself
observe yourself and he said you will
discover and observing yourself then
most of your thoughts revolve around
unpleasant emotions it's a very bad
thing to realize but it's true I use the
number 95 but I I as I said I'm pulling
it out of you know what again
um okay so most of it is dealing with
frustration resentment anger bitterness
etc etc etc okay and he said look at
those emotions see them do not judge
them do not say they're bad or good or
whatever
and don't ever talk about them
don't vent them to people you can look
at them but don't talk about them
and these people who expect to go whoa
by not talking about them they start
talking what they start to go away
I didn't really feel them because I
never expressed them so expressing them
was kind of what makes them stronger and
more embedded inside of you I feel like
we're doing that culturally right now
yes most definitely I mean look
what is the Crux of the problem in
people today if I had to summarize it
well and I don't mean people include
myself in them uh because I'm a human
being as well as far as I know I've
heard you know
what is up my friend Tom bilyu here and
I have a big question to ask you how
would you rate your level of personal
discipline on a scale of one to ten if
your answer is anything less than a ten
I've got something cool for you and let
me tell you right now discipline by its
very nature means compelling yourself to
do difficult things that are stressful
boring which is what kills most people
or possibly scary or even painful now
here is the thing achieving huge goals
and stretching to reach your potential
requires you to do those challenging
stressful things and to stick with them
even when it gets boring and it will get
boring building your levels of personal
discipline is not easy but let me tell
you it pays off in fact I will tell you
you're never going to achieve anything
meaningful unless you develop discipline
all right I've just released a class
from Impact Theory university called how
to build Ironclad discipline that
teaches you the process of building
yourself up in this area so that you can
push yourself to do the hard things that
greatness is going to require of you
right click the link on the screen
register for this class right now and
let's get to work I will see you inside
this Workshop from Impact Theory
University until then my friends be
legendary peace out
it's that we're self-absorbed
right I think that's the root cause of
so many of our issues right because
we're creatures that are actually built
for empathy for actually putting our
minds into other things into people into
animals into solving problems into our
work that's who we are and we've turned
that around where all of that voracious
brain energy that we have as I said I
just wrote a chapter on the brain and
it's insanely powerful instrument that
is so complex people say it's the most
complex piece of matter in the universe
right
so powerful and when you turn in order
just eats Us Alive inside it's like a
bacteria eating us from within as
opposed to exteriorizing it into work
into creating things into building
things into empathy into working with
other people and if we're getting all
ranty and outraged about Justice etc etc
what you really need to do is to get
outside of that and out helping other
people genuinely helping them right if
your cause
is and it's my cause as well as the
environment which I believe extreme a
lot means where my charity goes to then
ranting and complaining online and
making people feel bad is useless go out
and start a movement create something do
something you'll feel so much better
about yourself and you'll be
contributing it but what we don't need
is more of that self-absorption it's
like a centrif centripetal force that's
drawing us further and further and
further in my problems my parents my
education my brother and sister my wife
more and more inward more problems it
gets deeper deeper more
arsonated inside of ourselves right you
want to get out of yourself right and
put it into your work so
you know let's say you're an artist
right I have great respect for us I kind
of wish I had been I'm a failed artist
this is a guy who's written incredible
best-selling books I've walked through
bookstores and watched them bring in
stacks of books that you wrote yeah but
decades ago oh yeah but I wanted to be a
novelist you know it's so fascinating it
is so weird to me that you can sell at
your level and still be like oh but I
wanted to be this I'm the same which is
why I have such a response to that okay
because I am not good at the things that
I wanted to be good at and the things
that I am good at that other people Envy
me for I'm like like that's not very
interesting what is it that you wanted
to be
that list is very long I my if I could
Snap My Fingers I would be Elon Musk
that is like my fantasy of fantasies
plenty of time you're young yeah we'll
see a I'm 46 what's he like 47 48 like
he's barely older than me over 50 Now 51
52 I mean he's like it was certainly
within Striking Distance and look I am
honest enough with myself know thyself
as Robert Greene would say uh that I
don't my brain doesn't process data the
way that his does that now he warns
people like me not to want to be like
him because he says having the intrusive
thoughts that he has around engineering
and problem solving he said it's you
know it's like having this thing turned
on that you can't turn off anymore
that's interesting but I I would pay
that price so before we started rolling
you and I were talking I'm I am very
enamored with what you've created and
put into the world and you've you still
fill a niche that so few people are able
to fill I think it's utterly fascinating
you I said once in our earlier interview
that when I read your books I can hear
wolves howling in the background but in
real life you're so lovely and kind and
considerate
so most people that write dark books are
[ __ ] dark and they don't even realize
they're writing a dark book but like
your stuff really deals with an
underbelly of The Human Condition
but yet you're this lovely person anyway
what you've put in the world thinks
absolutely incredible
and so I totally understand the
the impetus to be good at one thing to
wish you were good at something else but
it is a very fascinating part of the
human psyche but probably if I had been
a novelist I would and I was at this age
and I was successful at saying you know
I really wanted to write non-fiction
books right The Grass Is Always Greener
so who am I to say I had such a weird
[ __ ] thing but so the what I find
interesting about we were saying is that
this idea and I haven't thought a lot
about this so I'm thinking out loud here
but the idea that if you're repeating
something over and over and and I have
said many many times whatever you become
what you repeat so if you're saying to
yourself like hey I can figure this out
I can learn I can grow then you will act
in accordance
and I find that there's something about
this moment where we are obsessing over
things I'm not even saying they're not
real but we're obsessing over them to
the point where it's becoming
counterproductive like we're seeing
things where
they aren't necessarily or we're
exaggerating things that are there but
like now we're making them seem just
absolutely terrifying and I think that
there's something that people have to be
careful about there that you can
you can make your own life worse by
obsessing over the things that are wrong
rather than like you said making it
somehow external or creating a piece of
art around it or something I don't know
creating something like I said I'm
thinking out loud I don't have my finger
fully on why I can sense that there's a
problem with it but there's a problem oh
I think most definitely we can feel it
in the Zeitgeist it's kind of ugly it's
an ugly energy it's an ugly energy I
normally hate that kind of loose talk
but because I don't I don't yet know how
to articulate it that feels really right
so you talked about this earlier and I
can't remember where I first heard this
but the idea that some things make you
feel expansive and some make you
constrict
this moment feels like a mass
constriction
and that's why I worry
yeah and the feeling of openness which I
say occurs historically because we're
social animals and things occur in these
kind of cultural Globs these
generational moments
is because of like memes and being
infected by the people around us
and in moments of expansion
your your minds are open you're
adventurous you're exploring it often
comes in in these kind of revolutionary
periods where people are just so sick of
the past 20 years and all the
accumulated baggage and all the ways of
doing things they're just tired of it
they want something new and so they're
exploring and they're hungry and they're
adventurous for our new ideas and people
come up with wild things but who cares
it's wild but it's interesting it's new
there's discussion there's argument but
people aren't killing each other over it
right these are great moments in history
and it's a feeling of expansion and
adventurousness so if you have an
adventurous Spirit which I think is an
incredibly positive
quality to have that means you're
continually open to life you're
continually open to what happens what it
brings to you and you're seeking it out
you want new things you're learning
you're not closed off you never have a
moment where I know what is I know what
this is happening Etc you have what the
poet Keats called negative capability I
don't know if you're
familiar with that I am but because of
you oh yeah I talked about it in Mastery
it's basically the fact that you can
carry in your mind two contradictory
ideas and not be upset about that
because quite honestly sometimes things
are contradictory and they're true right
it's weird but it's true right it could
be a it could be black it could be white
and they're both correct
the fact that you can hold two things
that seem opposing in your mind at the
same time he considered the foundation
of creativity he thought that was
Shakespeare's greatest quality it's what
makes a great scientist a great inventor
great entrepreneur a great inventor etc
etc do you have any examples I I agree
most wholeheartedly but I'd be
hard-pressed to give an example off the
top of my head
well I'm gonna I'm gonna mess it up
horrifically because I don't remember it
so well but there's the story of Louis
Pasteur
we're talking about invention
and of sort of the whole science of
Immunology right
and here I'm having to strain my my
neurons here to remember it but
um basically he had these chickens that
had been injected with smallpox or
whatever the disease is right
and then they all died okay and then he
brought in a new batch of chicken he's
trying to figure out how to solve
smallpox or whatever it was brought a
new batch of chickens in he injected
them
and then
they survived
some of them survived
and he couldn't figure out why
and then
um
he injected them again
and I know I'm missing it I'm so pleased
out there scientists don't don't don't
flame me for this
you know he's trying to figure out why
they survived and basically it was
because
the small epoxy that he had injected
them with the second batch was weaker it
had been left outside and so they had
developed immunity from it by having
this smaller less intense
version of smallpox and judged it into
them so the next time they got injected
they had the antibodies now we think we
see we take this for granted now but
nobody had a concept for antibodies back
there back then it was a totally novel
concept
and so when he saw these chickens that
survived
he was like why
you know what what happened and he
submitted this to other scientists and
they came up with all kinds of ideas
that were basically the same ideas
rehashed you know it was an accident you
have to redo the experiment or they
survived because of this that or the
other and he asked himself well no maybe
it's something that nobody ever
considered maybe what had happened was
by having the weaker batch they were
able to somehow survive so he asked a
question that was counter-intuitive
right which is injecting someone with
something will give them a better chance
of surviving it which is like whoa
that's like a contradiction in terms how
can that happen he was able to entertain
this very bizarre idea that contradicted
everything in medicine at the same time
he had negative capability and he
displayed it in other aspects of his
life as well and he invented one of the
most important breakthroughs in the
history of medicine there are other
examples I could give of artists because
it's most common with artists but I you
know people like Einstein had it as well
Etc
so that that you asked for example I
gave you a bad one but no that's
actually really that's a great one uh I
have one in business I was just thinking
about and because I talk about this in
um impact Theory University a lot you
have to be able to hold two competing
ideas in your head at the same time and
the the one that I encounter the most is
as a leader you have to understand that
people are Intoxicated by certainty in a
way that is almost distressing and in
fact we just impact Theory just had our
sixth birthday and one of the founding
members thank you very much one of the
founding members recorded a video of an
early memory and she was like I remember
Tom had so much conviction about what we
were going to build because I had to
convince all these people like to you
know do the startup starting literally
from scratch and she was like Tom had so
much conviction that we were going to be
able to pull this off
and so one of the things I teach is you
have to be able to create a narrative
you have to be able to say this is
what's going to happen this is exactly
how we're going to do it and if you can
like show people that you just really
believe to the core that this is going
to work uh then they'll follow you the
problem is that if you're blinded by
your own narrative you're going to get
blindsided and so you have to have this
narrative you have to present it with
conviction you have to believe it but
then you have to question the [ __ ] out
of it and make sure that like is this
really working like am I getting the
data that I should be getting because
any conviction like that should make a
prediction if your predictions aren't
coming true then you're in trouble so
it's like you have to be convicted and
at the same time be hyper skeptical of
your own Vision that's a perfect example
I couldn't have said it better thank you
people can't like that's hard it's hard
it's hard but it's very high level of
creativity
you know and if you can reach it it's
it's like gold hmm
you said something earlier that I want
to go back to I've been holding in my
head because it was so intriguing yes at
the Stanford talk the one who uh was
annoyed that you said that you could
find fulfillment in your work
why do you think it made her mad I
understand your rebuttal to her but why
did it make her mad well I think there's
a context first of all this was like the
a group of psychologists
very heavy Academia right
at high level and here was this
self-help writer from Los Angeles
coming to the Stanford behavioral School
telling us about what is fulfilling
there was an immediate snobbery going on
I could sense it and I think that was a
large part of it it was like when I went
to France although this was not nearly
as bad an example of
this American is going to teach us about
seduction come on we're French right we
taught the world how to seduce I could
laugh then I thought they were right you
know and I felt kind of humbled about
that but this woman I got a sense of
it wasn't necessarily what I was saying
it just it wrangled them that um that I
was saying the other thing that wrangled
her was that I was saying that as an
individual
you could change yourself
and I brought up the example because it
was recently I was writing about this
with the 50 Cent book about the great
African-American writer Richard Wright
who wrote this fabulous novel called
native son is that the name there is a
book called native something I don't
know if you wrote it and um
how he had overcome incredible adversity
in his life
and had written this book and then
basically kind of what kind of went
downhill from them but he had
resurrected himself through his work and
he had overcome this horrific poverty
that he grew up in the South
Etc and I was detailing the process of
him as a writer as an example of what I
was describing about through your work
you reach this level so there were two
things there was the snobbery element
of this Los Angeles because you know
from La people are are appreciably
Dumber
further south you go in California right
if you're in the Bay Area you're from
Los Angeles you already have a Mark
again it's interesting a self-help
writer from Los Angeles okay are as bad
as a guess yeah all right and then the
other element of it's not about culture
it's not about the superstructure of
society it's not about some Marxist
theory about you know your level of
income and your and all of the other
things I was saying this person is
individual overcame the worst kind of
adversity not through a government
program although I have nothing against
government programs I'm not one of those
Arch Libertarians I believe in the
necessity of government I'm somebody
who's educated through Public Schools
through my whole life and I I love that
but he did it on his own in a process
that was very arduous and beautiful it's
like well this goes against everything
we believe in that you can't do things
on your own that you need an
organization you need a structure you
need politics you need this group you
need you need you need academics at
Stanford to teach you how to get to that
point right so I was nailed as the
self-help writer from Los Angeles who
was preaching about individualism and it
fit all the cliches about the American
etc etc etc right and that's not the
trend in Academia the trend is trying to
move away this goes back to the whole
structuralist movement and deconstruct
construction
Etc it's not the individual that creates
a work of art it's the culture right
getting away from the idea that there's
a writer there's a narrative narrator
it's all about the culture it's
impersonal so what I was saying went
against all of the trends in Academia
and it really upset them because maybe
I'm wrong but I was challenging some of
their deepest Health principles at least
for this one woman she was very she
wasn't rude or anything but I could
sense that I had rubbed her the wrong
way and she was very kind of it was
there was an element of anger underneath
her tone it's interesting you just
opened up a whole new can of worms so
the when you brought her up the first
time you were talking about
um she was incensed that her father
wasn't fulfilled as a truck driver and
that the whole idea that somebody would
find their fulfillment through work to
her seem crazy
and I was when you were talking about it
I was like okay why would she get mad
about well not not crazy but that
everybody should do that way because I
was saying that everyone should have
that opportunity to be the ultimate
anti-elitist belief that even her father
who drove a truck
could have done could have been an
artist could have created something
through driving or in some other
capacity some other capacity interesting
what about the idea of doing the driving
so well that it becomes Artistry I said
that that if that was what fulfilled him
I have no problem with that and if what
fulfills you as being a great parent
then that is a form of Mastery when
Mastery came out I had some Carpenters
who were doing the tile work on my patio
and I was interviewed by the New York
Times about my book and I said he's just
a good example of Mastery as Albert
Einstein he was so careful and so
precisely did a brilliant job you got a
great sense of satisfaction of seeing a
beautifully done you know bit of
craftsmanship right we craftsmanship is
a high form of intellect in my my
viewpoint it's actually a great thing
and it's something that people used to
Value you know I mean look at the
cathedrals in Europe you know so one of
the most beautiful things ever created
by human beings
Craftsmen Masons Etc
people who can make stained glass they
were masters of it these are things we
need to celebrate
so I have no problem your form of
Mastery whatever it is if it is driving
a truck but maybe driving a truck isn't
something that's fulfilling and maybe
you should consider that about your
father maybe I don't know yeah I mean I
think the vast majority of humans never
spill into that and so this brings us
back to the very first thing that we
were talking about is how people can get
lost in their own life and they think
that it's the thing I'm doing versus the
way I'm doing the thing
and
I don't want people to feel like oh I
just need to change the way that I do
the thing and never aspire to something
else aspire to whatever you want but
just understand that no matter what you
do if you're not looking at it like how
do I get
unbelievably good at this thing and I
don't know if Tony was the one that
thought of it but Tony Robbins certainly
introduced the idea to me that progress
is a foundational pillar of human
happiness that if you're not making
progress just there is something innate
to the human animal that you will be
unable to
find profound
would he say fulfillment I don't know
but to me that's how that became when I
really thought about what makes for
fulfillment you do have to be
translating your potential into skill
set there's something so inherently
pleasurable about I couldn't do it and
now I can definitely this is a big
reason why I think that people should
exercise and lift weights very
specifically there is something your
mind will be changed when you realize
you walk in the gym one day and you
can't lift the weight and then after you
know several months of like putting in
the work and trying to get strong you
can now lift something you couldn't lift
before that is one of the freakiest
things you can go through and when you
get that same realization in real life
that and this goes back to my whole
thing that I can feel there's something
going on in culture right now where
people have lost maybe because of what
you're talking about with the woman at
Stanford where it's like no it's not the
individual it's all culture and people
have lost the understanding it isn't
culture it is the individual and that's
the only place at which you can actually
get better at something where you can
then influence the world in some way but
understanding that you can translate
that potential into skill and now you
can actually move the needle make change
but if you don't believe that's possible
and you have niche's Will To Power or
expansion however you're going to think
about it you have this internal
compulsion I have to gain control I have
to expand my sphere of influence
but I don't think I can get better and
so the only thing left is
you start knocking other things down I
that feel like as I'm saying it now
that cocktail of
things feels like it pretty accurately
predicts what we're going through right
now that you will have an Impulse that
you need to satisfy where I have to get
control of this situation but I don't
think I can do it by falling in love
with something and getting better at it
and offering my art to the world in
whatever form and getting the echo back
because they are so moved by what I've
created that it inspires them to create
in their own way again expansive versus
constricting
but because you still have this need to
expand to gain control that you start
doing things that are
coming from a place of Envy coming from
a place of
silencing coming from a place of
Destruction instead of building up and
thinking oh I don't want to feel like I
don't want to feel that other people can
outperform me or that other people have
more control or recognizing that they do
and because I don't want to feel that
way I'm going to get better
and that to me like if I if I really
think about why do I put myself in front
of camera why do I go through it my life
is [ __ ] stressful I'm already rich
what the [ __ ] am I doing
when I think about why I re-engage with
the world as intensely as I do
it's because I understand how
transformational that moment is when you
realize oh wait I'm not powerless I can
get better
that's it like that's the juice for me
yeah yeah and it's an ongoing process
um
there's an expression in Spanish that
was like the artist goya's motto which
is
I'm still learning means I'm learning my
whole life so you might be 46 in your
fabulously wealthy I mean look where you
live Etc
but just living off your money and
playing golf and going to the beach
you'll get depressed what good does it
have you need constant challenges you
have an active voracious mind you need
new things to be applying it to so of
course you're going to want to keep
challenging yourself no matter and even
and the stress and as we said before we
were talking stress is good for you I
know it goes against everything that our
culture wants us to believe he wants us
to believe that you need to relax you
need to to you know not not stress
yourself not work too hard you know yoga
blah blah blah blah blah blah and I
think no stress is great stress is a
wonderful drug if you know how to use it
and I just wrote about in ancient
cultures uh where you had shamans and
initiation rituals they would put people
through the most the worst forms of
stress right they would suspend them
hanging from things in their skin books
in their [ __ ] flesh yeah I've seen
that live and in person by the way it's
freaky okay but why why do they do this
okay though the other things the
extremes of hot and cold etc
etc and then after that they would then
go danced incredibly fast or run up a
mountain
and they would create what this one
writer called the omnipotence feeling
the omnipotence effect
basically what they had done is they had
mastered the neuroendocrine system they
had found a way to engineer the our body
chemistry to create feelings of ecstasy
and Euphoria and I think you a sense of
euphoria is a very positive experience I
think it's an end in itself it's a great
thing humans are wanting that kind of
peak experience and it's very valuable
and healthy they had mastered they had
created the science of how to get there
by creating stress and then centuries
later neurosciences realized how they
had done it basically by suspending them
like you saw
they create the fear effect which floods
the body with adrenaline right and
adrenaline is an incredibly powerful
chemical if you've ever experienced it
you know it you in yourself you know it
if you faced a danger or there's some
accident or you're or you're you know
your life's at stake that adrenaline
floods your body it gives you incredible
amounts of energy it makes your eyes pop
open your alert you're seeing everything
around you animals have it it's an
animal type thing okay it's there to
make you survive all right and then by
creating by running and doing all these
other things they then had released all
these endorphins in the body
because this neurosense I'm not going to
bore your audience with it but nerve
endings in the limbs and in the feet is
where the endorphins are triggered most
and that's why long distance Runners
have this endorphin addiction because
endorphin is a painkiller it's the most
powerful painkiller ever invented your
body creates a painkiller right and so
when Runners that go running 50 miles
they feel incredible amount of pain the
endorphins kick in
the pain goes away and they're ecstatic
they're euphoric and they're addicted
they go one day without running their 20
30 miles they're depressed they're
addicted to that endorphin rush these
shamans had created through mastering
stress
through making
um
acclimating the body to stress and
pressure they had mastered it so when
you entered a situation like that you
felt confident and bold and you knew
that you weren't going to die and it
created this endorphin release that you
had the energy from the adrenaline you
had the calmness and painkilling effect
from the Endorphin you were high you
were euphoric it was great great stress
if you learn how to use it if you build
yourself up to it it could be a great
thing and for so for me in my writing
you know I'm continually creating stress
for myself sometimes it's unhealthy but
often it's for a purpose right because
it makes me reach these levels that I
hadn't reached before and when I get
there and I've created something that I
know is right when I hit it right
it's a high I feel high I use that
energy that comes from pressure to
actually excite me and I say like
creating a deadline
so Thomas Edison did this himself right
he was going to create the first city
lit by electricity
you know uh before then it was all oil
and gas lamps Etc right
people laughed at a ridiculous idea how
can you do that you know and it was a
ridiculous idea because
it had it required so much thinking so
much inventing so much logistical stuff
that it was almost impossible to do and
what did he do
he
soon after he had the idea that he was
going to light a city through
electricity New York in this case he
publicized it he gave interviews knowing
full well that once he gave the
interview the pressure was on him if he
never invented us if he didn't live up
to it he'd be humiliated he deliberately
created stress for himself so that he
would have the adrenaline and the energy
to stay up
you know 18 hours a day and create this
thing that was one of the greatest
inventions in the history of mankind so
learning how to use stress is a very
positive thing I don't know how we got
into this
how we originally started talking about
stress
um well we were talking about you and
your need for challenges etc etc yeah oh
yeah yeah and I said yep that that is
exactly right and then you said but
that's a good thing stress is good for
you
there's another angle to this which is
maybe more basic than where you came at
it from I actually hadn't thought about
it the way you were talking about it
that makes a lot of sense to me the more
basic way that I've always thought about
it because this is my journey is some
people just need to toughen the [ __ ] up
yeah I just needed to toughen the [ __ ]
up and the way that you toughen up is by
realizing as going back to Nietzsche
what doesn't kill me makes me stronger
and not just in like the oh I learned
from this way but in the like oh damn
like I actually realize how much I can
endure oh there's a great quote I need
to memorize this I used to remember who
said it now I forget but the paraphrase
is to those that I love I wish suffering
pain failure embarrassment because that
will show the only thing that matters
that one can endure
and I was like damn like that feels so
true to me like that people need to go
through some hard-ass [ __ ] so that they
can see can you endure or not and most
people
can but they have to go through
something before they realize it that
was a very valuable important part of
this ancient ritual the shamans that I
was talking about
um
where uh this guy who's studying it in
the 1990s trying to figure out why this
happened you see the missing ingredient
was that sort of confidence and boldness
and toughness so that they went through
these rituals over and over and over
again so they knew that they could
survive they could withstand it so it
toughened them up and without that
element of confidence the fear element
that came from the adrenaline would just
overwhelm them and crushed them right so
that was what you're talking about is a
necessary component in this kind of
chemical response that I'm talking this
equation yes dude I could talk to you
forever where can people find you
well I'm right here
um sorry rewatch The episode
they can find me
um I have a ancient website goes back
thousands of years it's called Power
seduction and War the and spelledout.com
power seduction and ward.com and there
you'll see all of my social media crap
they Twitter the Instagram The Tick Tock
yes I want to live and an email address
that if you want to write to me and tell
me that I'm full of [ __ ] you can write
to me and do that so that's the best
place power seduction at war.com and my
YouTube channel I love it awesome guys
if you haven't already be sure to
subscribe and until next time my friends
be legendary take care peace for more
life-changing habits check out this
episode with my friend Ryan holiday
Abraham Lincoln famously whenever he was
really mad at a subordinate like you
know one of the generals in the Civil
War