Kind: captions
Language: en
[Music]
rise Sati welcome back to the show
thanks for having me dude I'm excited as
always what are some of the biggest lies
that society and parents tell us that
ends up keeping people broke and
breaking up
relationships we're told that investing
has to be complicated that you have to
be some genius looking at a screen with
these numbers like PE ratios running
through it all day that's not true we
are told that you have to buy a house
because buying a house is always the
best financial investment that's not
always true and we're told that when it
gets to a relationship oh there's so
many lies in a relationship some of them
are uh he's a spender she's a saver or
I'm not the money person my partner
takes care of that and we accept that
and that leads to a lot of disasters in
relationship ship so the problem with
money is that we're told all these
things and because we don't really
understand how it works we just accept
it it's like the way I accept my car I
don't know how it works I just put the
key in and turn it on that's all I need
to know but money isn't like a car it
cuts across everything in our life
that's why I think it's so important
that we understand it so how do people
begin to figure out how to think about
investing how to get out of what I think
you call money
propaganda and because because as you
well know because you and I have been
discussing this now for years uh I've
been going on my own journey in fact
because of you I'm now going to stop
saying that I'm terrible at investing
I'm getting way better I'll be very
honest in large part because of the show
and so I've got to sit across from
people like you a lot uh but also
putting it into action and having now
enough time under my belt to see what
works what doesn't the emotional side of
it which right now seems to be the
biggest problem that people face is to
your point either they're buying into
propaganda or they're just the emotion
carries them away in the Euphoria or
they panic when Things fall so how do
people begin to tease that out and
really get their head right about money
and investing you know it's interesting
that by the time people turn 40 the
number one thing they're worried about
is money and yet the vast majority of
people have never read a single book on
Personal Finance think about that they
will uh believe what any random person
on some crazy subreddit tells them and I
read all those subreddits not for stock
tips just for entertainment I go don't
do this they'll wa listen to podcasts
which can be better but you're not sure
how to tell if it's good or not they'll
do everything but read a good book on
Personal Finance now I'm not just
talking my book here because I have my
own book there's a lot of great books on
money so if you want to become confident
with money you have to be competent
that's step one you have to be able to
speak the basic language of money and
it's actually not that complicated it's
fun you start to realize oh my gosh
compound interest works this way so if I
put a dollar in today it's worth way
more later okay that's we all kind of
get that but when I show people a
calculator of you're 32 years old if you
put this much a month then this is how
much you'll have if you put that much
you'll have that much more it's super
counter Inu
um I'll give you an
example if you pay a financial adviser
1% doesn't sound like a lot ah 1% as
long as I don't have to worry about my
money over the course of your life that
will take 28% of your returns out of
your pocket and into your financial this
is why I don't like investing so that'll
be the next thing I have to get over so
now SC to admit that I'm I'm getting
good at this but I don't like it why
because it is
the fact I know that that fact is true
but that is so counterintuitive my brain
cannot handle that 1% compounding
becomes 28% like it doesn't sense it
breaks my brain so I accept it but it's
so counterintuitive and I think that's
why a lot of people struggle with this
the good news is the punchline ends up
becoming really basic like just do it
slowly over time and we'll certainly get
to that but what I I want to help people
start thinking about money in a
different way now The Big Break through
for me and this may be something that
frustrates a lot of people in terms of
the way that I interview and because
it's how I have to understand things so
I need to know what is money because if
I can build the logic up if from like
the most base layer then okay now that I
really understand the nature of money I
can predict things once I can predict
things then I can move intelligently
okay well they're probably people who
are much better at the definitions and
history of money I want to get into that
today what what I want to get to is so
if you laid out the the lies that people
get sucked into yeah what are those core
tenants that for the person who doesn't
want to do it like I do it which is like
understand the most foundational thing
in Bill Brick by Brick over three years
and oh okay now I finally get where this
goes what are just like yeah I don't
want to talk about it I don't want to
read a book yeah give me some core
simple tenants but why they work so
compounding is one problem so 1% seems
small but when that stuff compounds it's
one * 1 Time 1 time it just like you get
that result sorry it's not actually one
time one times one it's whatever that
number is times
itself okay but here's another one um in
most parts of life if you spend more
time on it you get better results
cooking to some extent Fitness uh
certainly time with your partner or your
children
in money that is not true when you see
people tinkering around with their
portfolio and trading they actually tend
to have way worse returns than somebody
who puts it in a lowcost index fund and
doesn't check into it for 10 years
there's a famous story it's not clear if
it's true or not about Fidelity
investors so Fidelity you know it's fine
firm whatever there were people who had
forgotten about their money and they had
died so the money was just sitting in an
account just compounding growing the PE
of course these people were gone they
were dead so they didn't log into their
account and the money kept growing and
they compared the returns of
those dead investors from the average
investor the average investor gets only
a fraction of the returns that you and I
can get in an index fund and anybody
watching can get in an index fund why
because the average investor is
undisciplined they are emotional they
log in they get scared they see the news
they sell they they call their friend
they hear about some land deal they do
all this crazy stuff and they lose their
returns so the counterintuitive thing
with investing is the more time you
spend often you get worse results so set
it set it with the right plan and then
forget it okay so I think we need to
drill into some of why that works so a
dead investor is invest
in that scenario I'm going to guess that
they're in index funds like you said
yeah and what is an index fund it's just
collection it's a collection of stocks
it is Diversified usually there are
index funds that are just in healthare
or Tech but when I talk about index
funds I'm talking about like the S&P 500
index funds it's well Diversified and
because it's a index it's just matching
the market that means there's not
somebody in some expensive suit who's
charging
1% it's just a computer your fees will
be something like
0.1% which is very inexpensive over your
life and just so that I understand how
this works so the S&P 500 is the
standards and pores they're looking at
stocks that meet a certain requirement
they have the biggest market cap I don't
know what their actual requirement is
but you're at that point you're
basically betting on the American
economy correct RIT large like as broad
as you can manage it and as a company
falls off the S&P 500 a new company
comes on so all of that the managing
just is like there is a criteria if you
meet the criteria you're in the S&P 500
if you don't meet the criteria you're
not and therefore I assume as a company
falls off you're effectively then
selling that and buying the new one that
comes in here's what people are thinking
as they hear this they go well that
sounds fine S&P 500 but what if I have
my own idea aide of what I should invest
in what if I want to pick my own
companies that's the first thing again
in normal life we want control that's
what we're taught in America we want to
take control Manifest Destiny these are
deep deeply embedded cultural values but
when you apply those same values to
investing they can often be
counterproductive so people you're
really hedging they're counterproductive
in
99.999999 yeah yeah of course you can
pick you can pick an amazing stock and
outperform the market you can but the
odds of that consistently are virtually
zero correct and I want people to hear
what you just said because it is so
counterintuitive like if I go I'm gonna
pick a restaurant I know what's a good
restaurant I'm not just going to look at
the reviews I know and I go odds are
pretty good I'll pick something that I
like with stocks you cannot predict it
over a long period of time so there are
people on my Twitter they go REM Index
Fund is fine for like people who don't
know that much but I do my research I do
my research and I invested heavily in
Tech I go okay and Tech has been booming
for many years but guess what happened
Tech came down hard and this is what
happens Industries go up and when
they're going up you know there'll be
companies like Facebook when it started
it was inconceivable that there would
ever be a day where Facebook wouldn't be
the biggest social network for us that
day has come right now it's hard that
for us to imagine that there's a day
where Amazon will not be the biggest and
most convenient company that day will
come as well history has shown that and
so what Savvy investors do is they do
not try to make individual bets in their
portfolio they just acknowledge I have
no idea I'm going to bet on an index
some are going to win some are going to
lose but over the course of time we know
that the index S&P 500 tends to return
about 7 to 8% that's after inflation by
the way I'm saying that because these
days everybody wants to talk about
inflation that's like the I'm getting
two questions right now inflation and
ibonds ibonds I don't even know what
that is let me tell you the fascinating
thing is there's no real reason that the
average person should be asking me about
ibonds it is s it's basically a a type
of investment that you can get like
pretty high returns for a bond and
particularly in High Times of inflation
and it's like it can be considered to be
a good investment here's why people are
asking cuz it's all over the
news and I go why are you asking me this
like do you have a diversified portfolio
what's your asset allocation do you
understand how much guilt-free spending
you have those are big questions and
ibond is like me coming into this house
and saying Tom what finish did you use
on your door knob like it's just so
esoteric it's it misses the point and so
this is why individual investors get
poor returns they are fickle whatever's
in the news they start chasing it and so
what Savvy investors do is they have a
plan they understand the plan it's a
simple plan counterintuitively simple
and then they don't deviate from it one
of the reasons that I think that I've
achieved what I've achieved is I don't
trust myself I don't trust my emotions I
don't trust my ability to read the
future and so because of that I'm
constantly seeking disconfirming
evidence here at the company we have
something comes from Ray Delio the
largest hedge fund manager in the world
and it's called principles the doc
collector and what it is I just had one
of my employees write me today and he
was he didn't want to he had critical
feedback for me and he didn't want to
put it in in the dock collector because
it's public and people can see it and I
was like no no no please like I want
people to see because he was like I'm
just convinced that people are going to
get punished in some way for giving
critical feedback and I'm like they're
not because the reason that we structure
it this way the reason that I want you
to tell me what you think I'm doing
wrong is what if you're right and now if
I can get my ego out of the way I just
got more powerful so does it sting when
you realize you're doing something wrong
yeah I guess a little bit but I over
time have accumulated so many pieces of
information that I can then leverage to
tremendous success but it had to start
with me being very skeptical of myself
understanding how people trick
themselves into thinking they know
something and and my big fear that over
time you're going to hold me accountable
to this every time you see me that
people's thinking calcifies into Dogma
yes and so they think they've got it
they think they have everything figured
out because it's worked and so what I'm
trying to do is as I get older I know
the tendency is to go towards I'm like
look look at what I've achieved I know
everything totally and then you die well
it's a gift that you give all of us me
coming here and getting to go back and
forth with you and
everybody watching and listening to this
because what you do is hard it's hard to
say I don't trust myself and the more
successful you are like you are easier
it is to say no you know what I actually
do know that and so I don't need to
listen to anybody so I think it's a real
gift you're giving us and it's
interesting that's not hard for me it is
out of almost Panic really yeah so Panic
that what what will happen that I will
make the wrong move I know how easy it
is to be wrong and how hard it is to be
right and how hard it is to be right
consistently and on top of that dude
other people are smart and so not
everybody obviously there are morons and
so you really you really do have to get
good at filtering so in fact the guy
that gave me critical feedback today my
punchline was I think you're wrong but
I'm like this is a data point and so if
I keep getting this data point from a
bunch of people I'm going to start to be
like maybe he wasn't wrong I I called
them seagulls seagulls you know there's
this old story about Sailors and they
would look for Birds when they were
sailing to know that they were close to
shore that's a clue you're close to
Shore and so when I hear a seagull like
somebody telling like they used to tell
me um I used toh hear that I was skinny
like and I heard it one time I I was a
really skinny guy and I heard it two
times and I heard it three times and I
was like oh I must be really skinny I
didn't realize it until I heard these
seagulls and I started listening to him
and I hear him in business and I hear
him with the economy and in my
relationship
and I don't always listen to him because
sometimes I'm just like whatever but
sometimes I'm like whoa what what's
going on there I got to lean in and try
to figure that out so that's it's very
interesting that we both have that uh
principle yeah I wonder sometimes so
looking at the way that people invest
they invest like life has taught them
that they're right all the time and I'm
like whoa has life just taught you a
different lesson like when I look at
investing I think oh cliches become
cliches for a reason people say that
you're not going to beat the market Ray
Delo is screaming from the rooftops I
have $100 million a year spend in AI I'm
trading in milliseconds you're going to
try to go up against me and 1,00 people
in my company all like doing things with
AI in the fraction of a second with
gazillions of dollars what on Earth
makes you think you're going to beat me
how do people look at that fact though
and still do it they don't remember when
I told you they do but they lose money I
know but listen remember when I told you
they haven't even read a single book
about money yes they haven't read that
they they have heard Ray on some podcast
for 5 seconds but they never actually
cracked his book they don't even
understand the basic language of money
is it arrogance though like what makes
CU we'll get to people that just bury
their head in the sand but what makes
the person think that they're going to
beat the market are they they're a
gambler it's actually the worst
combination it's a little bit of
arrogance but it's ignorance as well so
ignorance and arrogance it's basically
like being a teenager you're like God
these teenagers are so dumb but they're
not dumb we were not dumb maybe we were
at some points but it was a combination
of ignorance and arrogance I have uh
ridden in my car a thousand times
without the seat belt so why do I need a
seat Bel nothing bad's happened until it
does and when you don't have that
experience of being scorched in your
portfolio it's really easy to say oh my
gosh it all goes up and we should
remember the Dynamics of Manas okay I uh
like in the last few
years the market has gone up in a huge
way and if you notice the entrance of
new
investors they come and they people Wall
Street pejoratively calls them the dumb
money so most of the dumb money comes
towards the end of a Mania
because uh your taxi driver is talking
about how much money he made in crypto
the news is talking about how
everybody's getting getting rich and if
there's one thing people in America
hate it's your friend who's stupider
than you who got richer than you we just
can't accept it so we go you know what
I'm getting in I'm opening up a Robin
Hood account you should never open a
Robin Hood account and they get in this
they don't understand what's going on
but all they know is the number goes up
so they start pushing some buttons they
take 2,000 bucks or 5,000 bucks whatever
they have and they go I'm going to be
you rich and if you were to stop them
right there you go hey I have a question
are you trying to get rich quick what do
you think they would say no yeah they
would say no no no no no no I'm not
trying to get rich quick but everybody's
making money in crypto and like I did my
research I went on three different
subreddits and I put my money in here
and look and this is the craziest thing
of all it actually does go up for a
while so there is no disconfirming
evidence until the day their car runs
into a tree and they're not wearing a
seat belt now most people actually do
not do this I don't want to scare people
away from investing investing is
actually not this roller coaster of
emotions you know what it is for me it's
like watching paint dry I spend one hour
per month on my money I don't it's like
asking me um how do I feel about uh the
two two different pairs of underwear I
have one's black and one's gray I I
don't care it's a commodity it's the
same thing to me that's investing
because once you really understand
it is so simple it's counterintuitively
simple you almost feel like what's the
catch but just like in Fitness just like
in food just like in relationships it's
counterintuitively simple when you
really understand it with relationships
people want to feel hurt they want to
feel appreciated they want time quality
time do that you get the basics right
and that's why I always encourage the
85% solution with your money get 85% of
the way there and then move on you do
not have to be perfect to be successful
all right so I want to go into the
detail of what people are combating in
their own minds and then what success
looks like for what you call a Savvy
investor but I think
is uh a wise investor maybe okay so uh
you many people think that they know
better yeah many people are prone to
Mania yes everybody thinks that Buy Low
sell High will be easy but the reason
Buy Low so high has become a thing is
because the actual preponderance of
activity is the reverse they buy High
panic and sell low the reason they buy
high is the Euphoria I I had never paid
attention to the markets before until
like 2020 through 2021 and I watched it
felt awesome it was so fun at money
everywhere it was just it was rad and
everybody was like yeah you can make
money everybody felt like a genius I've
heard you say that before and so in the
Euphoria you feel dumb if you don't do
something yes so now you've both got the
excitement and the fear of the Dumber
guy than me is making more money than me
and I'm an [ __ ] for not doing it like
that I wouldn't actually be able to look
my wife in the eye or my parents in the
eye or my friends in the eye or my kids
in the eye that I didn't take advantage
of this moment I had my money manager
was like yeah Tom what are you doing
you're missing out on historic gains
because I so paranoid I was like this
can't go up forever so I was like I'm
going to be cautious at this moment so
to finish that thought you're more
likely to buy high and sell low the
reason that you buy high is the Euphoria
the reason that you sell low is the
panic when it starts to drop because
you're not realizing the way that you've
gotten wealthy the way that you advise
people to get wealthy which is really
about time and so the reason that you're
not worried about volatility the reason
that you aren't panicking is one you're
investing at the index level so you're
betting on a huge group of things that
just meet some criteria S&P 500 it meets
that criteria and while there will be
short-term volatility short-term meaning
a year two years three years eh no big
deal s years 15 years 20 years we're
going to be
winning but most people can't do that
honestly everything you just said is a
true master class in investing I have to
say and I was here a year ago and we
were not having this level of discussion
it is really impressive thank it's
amazing what you just said takes a
lifetime to learn the truth is hitting
your career goals is not easy you have
to be willing to go the extra mile to
stand out and do hard things better than
anybody else but there are 10 steps I
want to take you through that will 100x
your efficiency so you can crush your
goals and get back more time into your
day you'll not only get control your
time you'll learn how to use that
momentum to take on your next big goal
to help you do this I've created a list
of the 10 most impactful things that any
High achiever needs to dominate and you
can download it for free by clicking the
link in today's description all right my
friend back to today's
episode just to comment about you're not
concerned about volatility in the short
term because you have a 25-year Horizon
that there are thousands of books that
have been written about just that
concept so for everybody everything you
just said is deep and usually it will
take people making their own mistakes to
come to the conclusion you just said but
it gets me excited to hear that because
if you're saying that and everybody
watching and listening is hearing you
and if they if they even pick up on one
thing they go you know what I don't want
to buy High I want to avoid Manas or I'm
going to check out this Index Fund thing
what is an index fund that sounds pretty
good that is gamechanging it can change
your entire socioeconomic trajectory I
talk to these folks all the time they're
instagramming me they're sending me
emails and they go I was the first kid
in my family to go to college um I used
your material I landed a job I started
investing I do the 401K match and I am
now 31 and I have
$140,000 in my accounts and I already
know that I'm going to be a millionaire
by this month of this year and I go this
is amazing they have changed the
trajectory of their lives and their
family's lives it's amazing it's
incredible so now getting into the
psychology of why I think I'm going to
make a hypothesis you don't like Robin
Hood yeah they give you credit which
people need to be very thoughtful and if
the one piece of advice I would give
people is supposedly rich people know
how to use leverage and all that as a
rich person I'm just telling you right
now I don't [ __ ] with leverage thank you
like that is terrifying that's how you
get yourself into trouble okay can we
just talk about this before the
Robinhood slam so people have a lot of
misconceptions about rich people it
drives me insane so when you get rich
people to actually share openly it is
revelatory so I wrote a PO a series of
tweets about how everybody thinks rich
people have these secret Investments
that they're getting like 10 times the
returns of normal index funds I go
listen I'm rich I have access to all
this stuff
and I can tell you right now yes I do
have access to more things than the
average person like private Equity some
Venture Capital certainly private
Investments uh companies but guess what
they usually do not outperform an index
fund and so can they yes we both know
investors I know you've invested there's
a lot of investors who have picked a
company it went Bonkers and they're
incredibly wealthy amazing but that
doesn't happen every day and that's very
unpredictable so this enraged people it
enraged them because oddly enough we
have a cultural belief here that the
rich get richer which is true but
primarily because of tax reasons and
therefore if RIT is telling me that the
rich don't actually have access to these
secret Investments then the entire
Paradigm for them falls apart I can tell
you if you look at private Equity return
like if you go look first of all most
people don't even know what private
Equity is but let's just say you get
access to a PE fund the way PE funds
Market their returns they're like we get
like 22% irr but in a tiny little
asterisk on page 62 of the prospectus
they will say amount return to the
investor is something like 5% very often
these super sophisticated Investments
when once you factor in fees and taxes
underperform a simple Vanguard S&P 500
Index Fund 80 plus% of VC funds fail to
beat the market 80% of active investors
on Wall Street these are highly paid
investors fail to beat the market so
what I'm saying is there's this big myth
that the rich have access to these
secret Investments now they do have
access to more Investments but that
doesn't mean they are better and I can
tell you as someone who has access to
these I've basically decided I
prioritize simplicity I want to wake up
in the morning and not have a gillion
things around me Simplicity and I know
for my goals a simple set of index funds
sure maybe a few different individual
Investments you know some angel stuff
maybe but like tiny you peel off a
certain percentage to play with exactly
just like going to the casino you go
okay I'm gonna do a hundred bucks and
that's it cool you managed your risk the
problem is like when I talk to these
crypto Bros and they go REM you're such
an old guy who wants 7% returns that's
so boring I go okay so you're into
Bitcoin that's cool uh what percentage
of your portfolio is in Bitcoin they go
portfolio what's that that's their first
comment and then I I'll suggest to
people hey if you want to invest in
speculative assets okay but why don't we
limit it to maybe like 2% or 5% and they
just look at me like Diversified
portfolio why would I diversify and they
then they use words that really
sophisticated investor do the only
problem is they don't understand them
they go it's concentration concentration
is how you make your money
diversification how you preserve it I go
do you know what the [ __ ] you are
talking about you have $300 in your
portfolio and you're talking about
concentration risk some people cannot be
helped that's okay with me I do what I
can but the people who are watching and
improving for them there are a lot of
simple ways that you can make a lot of
money it just takes time here's where it
gets tricky
they're not wrong and I forget who said
diversification Is for Suckers it was
somebody huge yeah and they're right but
only if you get it right the odds of you
getting it right oh my God they're
vanishingly Slim So This is it's the
same reason that people chase money or
fame there there really is utility to it
so money is incredibly powerful and it's
why people can't stop themselves from
trying to get rich even though I how
many people have to tell you that if
you're chasing money you're going to end
up emotionally bankrupt it's just
ruthless they don't believe you though
they don't they do it they have to do it
themselves and make the mistake but the
reason that that won't go away is
because money actually is powerful the
reason that the idea of the crypto bro
whether it's crypto or anything else is
that when it hits for somebody it really
hits man and it is transformational and
they tell everybody about it and it's
for that person it's probably real like
and so everybody chases that one it's
like somebody becoming a movie star you
go I want that if that if Tom Cruz sits
here and says well let me actually
explain the statistics of how many
people were in my class and how I'm the
only one who everyone's like whatever
Tom I just I want to be like you and
so it's okay if that's what you want to
do then God Bless but you need to
understand the game you are playing some
people go I am going to give my entire
life to try be Tom
Cruz okay do you understand the
tradeoffs and maybe it will work one in
a million one in 10 million okay but
what if it doesn't work so this is a
common thing for entrepreneurs as well I
have a lot of entrepreneur friends and
we talk about what are we doing with our
business and our money and you wouldn't
believe it but very few of them invest
in the market and I go what do you mean
you don't invest in the market you're
rich you have a lot of money put let's
put it to work and they go dude they
look at me like dude I can make way more
putting it in my business than putting
it in the market which may be true in
the short term but I go you're right you
should probably invest aggressively I
mean your business is great I have
nothing to say about your business but I
also say how many businesses do you know
that were around for 60 years seers even
they went out like big companies go out
I say why take the risk of going from
here to here why not take some of your
cash flow FL and diversify it it makes
you sleep at night if something
catastrophic happens to you or your
business you and your family are taken
care of like why not and that that is a
productive conversation because I think
business owners they kind of get risk
they think about risk a little
differently um honestly you know I don't
want to scare people with money where it
gets most exciting for me is people who
go okay I'm ready to invest I just don't
understand it those that is an amazing
conversation because in the course of
couple of hours you can change the way
somebody thinks about money if they're
scared of money if they talk about it
with their partner with money and those
are the people that are ready to make a
change all right so let's get into the
person that they decide okay cool I am
going to invest but what I think we're
up against because I think they're going
to be drawn to the robin hoods of the
world they're going to be drawn to Wall
Street bets yeah my hypothesis is that
there really is something about um
gaining mechanics gambling that is so
enticing and so fun and so innate to The
Human Condition yeah that people cannot
help themselves so as let's use Robin
Hood as an example I actually don't know
them very well but I know enough that I
think I understand why you don't like
them but tell me where I go as yeah they
they have gamified um gambling by doing
what speculating when you when you first
of all where where is it uh advertised
where is it talked about in the height
of the crypto boom it was talked about
all over the crypto rooms you don't
really want to be in those rooms if you
are a long-term investor you do not want
to be uh but okay that's where their
marketing was happening fine when you
sign up for an account and log in they
give you free money they go pick pick
something part scar here's a free token
that is not how investing should be done
and do you have to pay that money back
is it a loan or is it you can lose it
and it doesn't matter yeah I think free
um this is long-term investing it should
be it's not it should not be speculating
because individual MERS should not be
speculating and how do you speculate
because the part that scares me about
Robin Hood isn't even that okay they're
encouraging you to pick your own stocks
and make you think you're fancy and
you're going to end up losing your money
yeah it's that they get into puts calls
options where you have infinite downside
correct that's where people commit
suicide that's the one that freaks me
out and and things like that have
happened it's um quite
dangerous that's a rarity you know um
they do offer it and in my opinion the
individual investor should not be doing
it I don't just to give you an example
why am I going to take so much risk to
make a little bit more money than I even
need why I I'm making enough and I have
a longtime Horizon I'm
good for the individual investor who's
just opening an account they've never
invested they come in it's like going
into a candy store except it's candy
laced with drugs it's not the kind of
thing I would never put my family
members on Robin Hood what's the drug in
the
scenario uh just picking stocks well
that is a minor drug that's like um
what's worse than caffeine but it's like
a drug speed I I'm not the drug guy I
don't know I don't know anything about
drugs I was like doing spelling bees
when I was a kid not drugs uh better for
you yeah
um the risks are number one you start
thinking that investing is picking
individual Investments that's individual
stocks that crypto should be your entire
portfolio there's a huge risk number two
all the advanced things that really you
should not be using as an individual
investor call options trading there's no
reason for it uh and worst of all once
you get into this world this Zeitgeist
and you're of course going to search
Robin Hood investing tips you're now
surround it's like you've gone down the
rabbit hole and this is your world it's
like you took a wrong turn on the
internet I have a personal theory that
people who signed up for Robin Hood
during the crypto boom will have lower
lifetime returns than the average
Vanguard investor why because if you get
used to 300 or even 3,000% returns for
two or three or four years how are you
ever going to be satisfied with a 7%
annualized return it's impossible and so
this is important it's like making a
decision in your adolescence that can
affect the rest of your life and I know
you said that you believe a lot of
people are subject to um manipulation or
being gamified and things like that I
agree that is very true and it's
exploitative my my view is there are
also a lot of people who want simple
investing they're willing to put in the
time they don't want uh whizbang fancy
stuff they just want to know how basic
investing really works they want to
understand their money psychology they
want to feel good about money those are
the people I talk
to okay so tell me a little bit more
about leverage so that's the part about
Robin Hood that scares me is that people
can get themselves in a situation so I
certainly understand you're what you're
telling people to do invest in an index
fund put it in wait a long time just
dollar cost averag and keep adding money
and don't touch it yeah we know though
that people get excited they like the
gambling mechanics so what are the
things that they should be on alert for
how how does leverage enter it what is
leverage how do people get themselves in
trouble would you ever use leverage with
the S&P 500 no way okay Leverage is
basically um it's it's putting put a
turbocharger on your Investments now if
that sounds awesome it sounds really
good however
however people forget that leverage
works on the way up but it also works on
the way down so when things are good and
you use leverage they can be really good
you're borrowing money you're applying
that towards your Investments and it's
like oh my gosh it's appreciating
fantastic of course you need to manage
your
leverage uh you need to sell you need to
do all these very complicated things
that the average person on the street
has no idea about where it goes really
bad is when things start to
turn there's all these famous stories
about people who had tons of money and
then one day they are wiped out those
stories terrify me and they also confuse
me
because if you have a million dollars
or10 million or however much is a
lot you have to play a different game
you have to
decide what what is risk to me like when
I was 22 and I was not making that much
money and I was starting my first
company I was like I'll work really hard
my risk my downside is low because I
live in a house where my rent is 800
bucks a month and like I'll go with my
friends at Google and eat lunch there
and take my backpack pack and stuff it
with food to take home like great my
risk is much higher now if I lost it you
know I got used to these sweaters man
what am I going to go back to wearing
the old sweaters I used to no I have a
family uh I have a lifestyle that I like
and I have Investments and plans for how
I use my money I have a team I have
employees so my risk tolerance changes
okay when you're using leverage if you
are really really really Savvy and I
mean
um probably savier than
99.5% of
investors leverage can make sense many
borrow money to
buy some yeah some type of security it
could be a house even you know people
use leverage for their house and that's
great a lot of people point to that as a
great reason for Real Estate
outperforming true on the other hand
when prices go down as they are now
leverage can be your enemy so if you put
a little bit of money down and the price
of the house goes down just by this you
can be wiped out why how how does that
happen I have to show you the math I
don't have it handy but imagine what is
the metaphor here that I can share with
you it's like putting on um a a heavy
weight vest and and I get launched into
the sky I'm gonna go faster because I
have this weight vest it's just like
forcing me up there any physicist
watching this please don't write me
about how I don't understand gravity
you're right but when you turn and come
down that weight V is going to make you
come
down way faster than you ordinarily
would have um that's the best example I
can give let's step out of analogy and
go into just the reality because in in
the housing market I think the only way
that Leverage is going to bite you in
the ass is the following so Leverage is
literally just borrowing money so you
have the leverage of somebody else's
money so they give you money let's say
you put 10% down but you buy the whole
house so if the house costs $100,000 you
put $10,000 down you now owe $90,000
when the house is worth more than the
amount that you owe all is well because
you could sell the house and get that
money and you can pay the bank where you
get into trouble is if your house is
worth less then you owe on it yes and
your payment goes up let's say because
interest rates change you had an arm an
adjustable rate mortgage and so now you
can no longer make your payments you
can't make your payments now the bank is
sweating you saying hey you better give
us our money back you can't sell the
house at least not for what you owe and
so boom you end up losing your house
yeah that's basically it although the
interest rate doesn't necessarily need
to reset there are a lot of reasons why
you can be in a bad position but that's
a you can't make your payment is the
punch line because if you can make your
payment it doesn't matter the price of
your house or the value of your house
could go down down down down down and it
wouldn't matter uh technically yes uh
there are some psychological wrinkles
people hate to keep making payments on
something when they know it's worth less
than they paid that is a minor
psychological difference but nothing is
forcing correct nothing ising but now I
want to talk about using leverage to
invest in crypto or the stock market
because here's where people get
absolutely
obliterated so you're using the value
let's just use Bitcoin you're using the
value of Bitcoin yeah as The Leverage to
get the loan so hey you have Bitcoin
that's worth $100,000 we're going to
give you $50,000 loan use the uh Bitcoin
as the collateral so you then use that
to buy more Bitcoin the problem is if
the value of the Bitcoin drops enough
the second that value equals how much
you owe them they force liquidate you to
make sure that they don't lose any money
yeah so they're like word thank you they
sell they get all of it you go from
having something to having nothing in an
instant known as a force liquidation
yeah wait has this happened to you no
but I couldn't understand how people
were getting in trouble I was like I
what do you mean a liquidation so
because I was used to thinking like a
house and I'm like as long as you can
make a payment what's the problem but
they're not making a payment it's just
the collateralization so the second that
it drops to matching then they're like
we can't afford this dropping anymore we
have to sell to get our USD back so they
force you to sell I didn't know that was
a thing yeah so thankfully because
here's my thing dude going back to the
first thing I said I do not trust myself
I'm going to be very trepidacious so so
even now with as much money as I have
dude a I don't have leverage on anything
but the only time I would ever even
consider doing something on Leverage is
if I understood that thing and had
proven to myself that I had performance
over long periods of time completely I
love that you say that we have a similar
philosophy you know there's a spectrum
of how risk seeking you are with money
and you know people follow these
somewhat
predictable moves on the Spectrum when
you're young you'll take all the risk in
the world when you have a little Capital
you maybe get a little bit less risky um
that's normal but I remember a mentor of
mine many years ago uh he was he was a
pretty successful Silicon Valley
investor so we were out for lunch and he
was talking we're talking about money
and he said R I have a no debt policy in
my family and I thought to I was young I
thought to myself wow must be nice not
have to take any loans buy a car cash I
wasn't even thinking about a house but
he has a no debt
policy now that I've gotten older I've
grown my own business and personal
wealth I actually admire him even more
because as someone who has a lot of
money he could easily leverage himself
to buy a house buy a car all kinds of
stuff but he doesn't he knows what
enough is so out of all my friends well
let me ask you do you have enough
enough no okay we can get into why I
want to know why so I've actually heard
you say and people say this all the time
you want to talk about a money lie that
drives me crazy uh you've got hundreds
of millions of dollars you could never
spend it what dude I could drop easily
half a billion dollars just making one
film and marketing it so to me it's like
bro I need so much money to do what I'm
trying to do so even though in the
average world I'm freakishly wealthy
with what I'm trying to build I feel
hamstrung by money all the time wow so
all I think about is how do we generate
more Revenue so that we can keep
investing in the business so but I don't
fall prey to that I don't actually have
enough you know what I mean like for
what I'm trying to build I don't have
enough but if I stop having fun H then I
just stop and go be rich okay so I'm not
I don't trap myself in in uh foolish
beliefs we could really derail into
frame of reference right now which I
actually think is the ultimate thing
that you point out for people yeah but
to get into frame of R maybe later but
well first of all I just say I like your
answer a lot um I only know one other
person besides me who says he has enough
he's a friend of mine he also studied
all my money stuff years years ago and
he's done very well and I asked him
recently do you have enough yes didn't
miss a beat I was stunned I was like
meeting a unicorn I said what you have
you're the only person I've ever heard
say that besides me and we talked about
it he understands money he understands
compounding he knows how much he has
today and he knows if he does nothing
else he just leaves that turkey in the
oven and just lets it sit it's going to
turn into a huge amount of money he
knows how to spend it how to leverage it
leverage meaning not use leverage but
how to um make use of his Mone use of it
yeah
so I don't mind if most people would not
answer yes to that question I don't mind
it your answer is great it's on a far
end of the spectrum but I do want people
to know what is enough and if I ask
somebody what is I asked them this all
the time in my podcast and their answer
is uh a million bucks or three million
bucks I go okay how'd you come up with
that and they go well you know I just I
feel like that's like a good amount like
I'll feel safe when I have that and I go
can I tell you something they go yeah I
go you genuinely believe that when you
have $2.5 million in the bank you're
going to feel safe it's never going to
happen the way you feel about money is
highly uncorrelated with how much you've
got in the bank and I I've talked to
people on the podcast who have they
believe they need
$100,000 to feel safe a million 10
million 15 million and without fail when
they get there they're still worried
they're still worried because the two
are independent so we have to understand
first of all what does a million dollars
mean how much can you generate from that
if you do nothing and you want to keep
that money safe how much can you turn
that into in terms of cash flow that's
just basic understanding things like the
4% rule but then we need to understand
the emotional psychological part of
money that's super neglected especially
among techy guys you know they're over
here on making their spreadsheets and in
the fire Community they go oh I need my
Trinity rule I need to do my
spreadsheets I go man you're going to go
the rest of your life optimizing your
spreadsheet and you're never going to
actually feel good about money and that
has been the focus of my work for the
last few years it's very interesting I
always find myself drawn to what's the
psychology of that
person because the fire person they're
not focused on the same thing that you
are correct but they're getting off on
like really scrimping and scraping and
like it that has become the game for
them and I remember when I was really
broke and I wanted to spend money and I
didn't have money to spend and I'm not
sure what gave me the the idea but this
ended up working amazingly what if I
gamified saving what if I put all of my
dopamine in that basket so that as I
watch my bank balance go up even though
it was going up from like $115 to
$127 could I get a dopamine spike out of
that and become obsessive about saving
and it worked it was awesome you still
do that no not at all how'd you turn it
off I got really
rich but so I mean this is like and okay
so there there are things about my brain
that I am really grateful for and
there's things about my brain that
really piss me off but I am hyper
malleable and I know how to change
myself so when I needed to save I was
like intuitively I understood I need to
make this a game because then I'll be
attracted to that I didn't I wouldn't
have said oh this is about dopamine but
I knew it'll be fun that was the only
way I could explain it I'll make this
fun so I knew how to make that fun but
the whole point of me getting into
business and doing all this was so that
I could build the studio so so I once I
got there then it just became a question
of what do I want to use the money for
which I know is a big thing that you
talk about but I want to talk about
safety for a second because as you were
saying that I realized I will never
having money in the bank will never make
me feel safe the O there's literally no
amount of money because I know how easy
it is to spend on something big or take
a big risk and it's all gone the thing
that makes me feel safe is that I know
how to make money and so my skill set
makes me feel impervious so I don't the
only fear I actually do have one fear
around losing my money and that's it
will it will really not make me look
cool to my wife if you lose money if I
lost money yeah so that would I would
not feel studly in front of my wife and
so that makes me really bummed out the
thought of that happening but because I
know I can rebuild yeah dude honestly
like I sometimes
fantasize about I lose starting it all
over but like not I can't even start my
own company I have to go in somebody
else's company do you know how fast I
would get promoted through that [ __ ]
company the ma that would be amazing yes
if should it all go away I will come
knock give me a call but yeah uh okay so
that's amazing the fact
that when I talk to you it's so
interesting I hear similar things that I
hear from other people but your
reasoning and your level of reasoning is
just completely different from others it
makes perfect sense you know you are as
successful as you are and you think
about this stuff every single day it's
like a joy to talk to you most people
are scared of not having enough most
people worry about money they believe
that a certain number will make them
feel safe in your case you worry about
money a little bit you don't feel safe
with money those two things are the same
but you're you're impervious to uh that
type of risk CU you know know how to
make money and you acknowledge it might
be embarrassing you know for you and
your life would definitely be
embarrassing what I want people to do is
to go deeper than just saying um I don't
feel safe with money I want people to go
deeper than saying I worry about money I
and I this is what I do I ask them what
worries you what worries you and they'll
say well I I don't know if I have enough
I'll say do you want to find out right
now let's just do the
math they've worried about money for 25
years and they've never pulled out a
calculator which you can find on Google
in two seconds and typed in four
numbers that really tells you that it is
deeply psychological and emotional um
they worry that because they don't have
Clarity on what they want and so enough
is inherently related to what do you
want to do with it the word enough is
just this repository of worries and if I
say what is enough they'll just make up
a number and I say okay 2 million cool
where'd you get that from again they
just pulled it out feels right it's kind
of like when I ask people how much you
spend on a vacation how do you decide
how much to spend on a vacation it's a
very interesting question reveals a lot
for everybody watching you know how do
you decide how much you spend on a
vacation and what people often do
is they will say ah you know I figure
like it should probably be around like
5,000 bucks for this type of trip that
I'm trying to take I said cool how'd you
come up with that
number and we probe and probe and it
turns out in their early 20s when they
first started having some money they
went on vacation and they have basically
imprinted that number now now imagine
I'm talking to a
40-year-old 45y
old she and her husband have been very
successful they have $10 million this is
a podcast episode that I had and they're
still saying their vacation should be
$5,000 and they really value their
vacation they love it but when they go
on it they're always worried about money
I say something's wrong here and the
answer is you haven't turned the page on
your finances in that season of life
like when you were gamifying finances
that was fun that was that season of
life for you but at a certain point your
season changes you got to turn the page
and embrace the season that you are in
and that's really hard for people to do
how much do you think of this as tied to
we don't know when we're going to die
because if I knew I was going to die
when I'm 85 then I'd just run the math
I've got this much it'll run out no
you're a freak Nobody Does it like that
it's more about wouldn't they though if
they knew when they were going to die
okay you think they would here's a
scenario yeah you have received a
terminal illness notice you know that
you have 5 to 10 years to live you know
it can we make it specific I know I have
seven years to S years to live cool so
now it's very specific this is a real
scenario okay you have seven years to
live
live um you have two daughters mhm
they're like 9 and 10 years old you want
to create memories with
them but you're wondering if you should
quit your job and spend time with them
what's the one bit of information you
need to know how much money I have in
savings and how long it's going to last
okay very good you're the amount of
money you have
is about $8 million okay
seven years to live quit for sure okay
well I wouldn't because I love what I do
but I would certainly split time or
something so that I would have a
preponderance of time to spend with the
kids this is a real woman who came to me
on my podcast and her question was
should I quit my job wow she had a
double lung transplant she has 5 to 10
years left to live she wants to create
memories with her daughters and
I'm listening to this and I go what's
keeping you at your
job and she said I like the steady
income that's the beginning of the
conversation now I can't just get in
there and be like look at this look at
the math here's the calculation this is
psychological we we go back to our
childhood and this is where most people
are more motivated they don't look
forward with their money I want them to
get there but first we need to look back
her mom taught her certain lessons about
money caused her to worry about money
she's continued to worry about it and at
a certain point like you said those
grooves become really deep they become a
habit so when I ask people like what do
you get out of this they're worrying I
what do you get out of this they go
nothing I go no no no you get something
otherwise you wouldn't do it often it
gives them a sense of control a sense of
purpose so we're talking about this and
to me the most interesting part of the
conversation was she's immunocompromised
so she really has to take care of her
health when she travels she doesn't want
to go into restaurants and things like
that I said no problem with that much
money you can hire a doctor to come with
you you can have an assistant clear the
area there's so many things you could do
so in this part of the conversation I
asked them what do you want to
accomplish what do you want to do with
your family what what messages do you
want to share with them in your time
here and they discussed uh taking a trip
to somewhere like Texas or Arizona or
something like that I said sounds great
how would you do it and we had this
15minute back and forth about would they
drive would they fly while they're imuno
she's imuno compromised and her husband
piped up and said what if we Char her a
plane remember she's got a few years
left to live time is of the essence and
they have plenty of
money and they talked about it and they
talked about it and in the end she goes
well that sounds really cool but of
course we're not going to do that I was
like wait what you have this chance to
go on a trip and she said well you know
we're just not the kind of people who
would Charter a
plane and so I share this because so
many of us think that if I just had
enough money and if I knew how much time
I had left then of course I would change
my life and my response to that is um
saving money is really important but
spending money is also important and
it's like a muscle and if you don't
exercise it and if you don't learn learn
how to spend on things that are
meaningful to you then you can
accumulate a lot of money over time but
you won't actually know how to use it
it's really interesting this is frame of
reference I'm the type of person that
right we're not the kind of people that
would Charter a
plane uh okay so I find
that very in line with what I know to be
true about
humans which brings me to how money
tears apart relationships so one of the
cool things about your podcast is that
you get people to come on and talk about
like the real stuff that they argue
about what are the biggest Collision
points for people in relationships over
money it always starts with a very
specific incident I remember one where
she went to Target and she came home and
his first question was how much did it
cost and it just blew up into this fight
Target is a real flasho for people it's
like a there's a Target that's what I
said I've been to Target I grew up in
Suburbia you know there's all these
memes online about I went to Target to
spend 20 bucks and I walked out with
$300 ha I actually don't find it that
funny because as I talk to her because
there's no discipline why no not not not
for that reason
because your rich life cannot be going
to to a random store to buy random
Commodities and then declare that this
is all I want in life there's got to be
more to a rich life than buying formula
409 because it needs to be intentional
it needs to be meaningful so with this
with this young woman I asked her like
what do you what do you buy at Target
and her first answer was I buy I buy
clothes for my kids that's code for I'm
a good mom I said okay what else uh you
know things for supplies
D okay fine but she spent so much time
talking about Target and I said tell me
about you what is your rich life and she
was blocked it's been so long since she
thought about herself that she didn't
know what to do and so we probed and I
have a whole process and she finally
said you know what I'd love to do I said
tell me she said I would love to get a
massage once a month just time
alone I said could you do it she's like
oh no no no I can't do that I have kids
um you know I need to spend time
Etc I said what kind of message do you
think that you send your kids now when
you don't prioritize yourself as well
and she started tearing up and I asked
her why Target why do you go there and
when she was a kid her mom used to take
her there so this is often rooted in
childhood her mom would take her there
her mom would say what would you like to
buy she would get a treat and so now she
does the same thing with her daughters
the problem is she is drunk her rich
life to a commodity store now if she had
told me like I love camping so we go to
REI and we go we get camping stuff and
we spend time great I have nothing
against big box stores but it's this
idea that she's just buying random
things which she herself admits she
doesn't remember later and she's shrunk
her rich life to something where she
can't even give herself a massage give
order a massage I said what if you were
to go and once a month you were to get a
massage you were to spend money on it
unapologetically and you were to tell
your daughters Mommy's going to take
care of herself she'll be back in 2
hours what kind of message would you
send your daughters then and she tear up
again money allows us to express our
values on a very tactical basis if you
believe you're generous show me how much
you tipped the last time you went out to
coffee if you believe you're adventurous
show me how much you spent on an
adventure in the last 60 days
so there are these phrase we use
generous adventurous spontaneous I like
to travel I love them you choose your
rich
life but our money and time is what can
actually reflect what our values are
what is up my friend Tom Bilu here and I
have a big question to ask you how would
you rate your level of personal
discipline on a scale of one to 10 if
your answer is anything less than a 10
I've got something cool for you and let
me tell you right now discipline by it's
very nature means compelling yourself to
do difficult things that are stressful
boring which is what kills most people
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out okay so how does that end up like I
want to know where where the moments are
of collision so people don't have clity
they haven't thought about their rich
life is it when the rich life is
different for both of them yeah so the
biggest the biggest mistake that I find
with couples and it's common among many
of them is they have no Rich Life vision
so they will come arguing about you know
I can't believe that he spent $500 to do
this car repair we should have waited or
I can't believe she went to Target and
I'll ask him what is your rich life and
they're just like I don't know I you
know we want to take care of our kids
and we to retire I go your kids are 2
years old you went from 2 years old to
retirement what happens in between so
there's no shared Rich Life vision and
if you don't have a
vision it's easy to get lumped into the
weeds it's like you you had this vision
of this studio if you didn't have this
Vision it's just like I want to make
money make money am I paying too much
for this what about that but if you have
a vision it all kind of crystallizes
into everything I'm doing is to make
this couples don't have that they rarely
sit down and talk about money another
Collision point is when they do talk
about money it's almost always reactive
it's a fight so 98% of couples do not
proactively talk about money in my
experience it will be why' you spend
that or how are we going to afford this
or some type of reaction but it's almost
never hey it's our monthly rich Life
review let me compliment you on
something you compliment me let's take a
quick look at the numbers and let's talk
about what we want to do because uh when
it comes to money it's almost always a
fight it's almost always negative so in
I in a monthly Rich Life review I always
started off by saying something nice
about the Partner money related or just
anything should be money related so it
would be something like um you know babe
I really appreciate how whenever we
travel somewhere you always book The
right seats and you make sure that we
have great flights and I appreciate that
about
you something that connects what they do
with
money and it's such a different way to
talk about money instead of why'd you
spend that much I can't believe you did
that there's a um a therapist researcher
I forget his name but he has this idea
of the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse
and he said you know I've been doing
this for a very long time and I've
noticed that there are four traits that
if a couple shows that odds are that
they're going to end up getting divorced
and the one Horseman that is most
predictive is contempt contempt so if
people roll their eyes if they're you
know huffing and puffing about their
spouse he's like the and this isn't him
ballparking it was like 98% predictive
of divorce within the next 6 to 12
months I mean it was crazy the gotman uh
gotman is it gotman yeah gotman they're
awesome my wife and I took a a gotman
seminar really yeah we loved it it was
uh virtual and during covid and it was
an entire weekend it was like eight
hours a day and it was physically
difficult because it's pretty emotional
and you're talking and you're going
through some difficult conversations how
you doing that virtually he's like okay
and now take five minutes to answer
these questions yeah yeah they give you
exercises and there are therapists
around in case you need specific help it
was
outstanding and in looking back you know
at the end of the weekend we were
exhausted emotionally
physically but we reflected on it and we
said like what did we like would we do
it again and um the most valuable thing
we did was simply putting time aside for
our relationship and then we also
decided we want to do it once a year so
we put money aside in a sub savings
account for self-development and we use
it for a conference a seminar uh
whatever it may be for us for our
relationship it's separate from
vacations but that's just an example of
when if couples had a joint set of goals
and they actually put money towards it
that is really meaningful so this this
couple I just spoke to recently um the
guy was not interested in money he was
the primary earner but he just didn't
care he's like I give it to my wife she
handles it big mistake classic mistake
is to have one person be the money
person and the other person is just like
oh yeah you do that that's your thing
that's a huge mistake so he was pretty
disengaged and finally you know I was
talking to him what's your rich life he
didn't have much finally I mentioned a
childfree trip the guy's face lights up
I was like all right this guy wants to
get away from his kids I get it he wants
to have time with his partner to connect
so suddenly we start building that in to
their rich life we put some money aside
every single month he knows that once a
quarter they're going to go on a
childree
trip now these little skirmishes In The
Weeds about why' you spend that or I
can't believe that you didn't do this
those are out of the picture because
they're focusing on something that they
both want that's the way that I want
couples to use money okay so I brought
up contempt because I want to know is
there a thing like that in money where
if I see this I know they're have a
problem or is it something else yeah if
there if one partner is completely
checked out that's a huge huge huge RIS
why do people normally check out um it
they just don't believe that change can
happen
and you know what's they're in a bad
situation they don't even want to look
at it they're just I'm out no they just
go what's the point and there have been
a few couples I've talked to
interestingly most of the couples who
are really checked out won't even come
on they'll even tell me on email I'll be
like hey I'd love to talk to you I think
I can help and they go I spoke to my
husband It's usually the husbands on
email and he doesn't want to do it and
then sometimes like six months later
they'll write me like that relationship
did not work out boyfriend husband
whatever but there have been a couple
where they came on and we're talking
about it and we're really trying to make
some progress and one partner is just
like this just checked out like whatever
rolling eyes um you can hear the flat
affect in their voice there's no
engagement
and everyone can imagine what it's like
to be in a relationship for years where
nothing has changed and you just lose
hope it's really heartbreaking I try to
get them engaged and sometimes it works
like I can remember a couple of times
where the partner gets um engaged and
there's a way to bring him but it is
really the responsibility of the other
partner so how do you get people to
re-engage if one person because I've
obviously heard a bunch of your episodes
if one person is like n you know I I
don't get involved that's her let her
deal with it or let him deal with it the
key is to raise the stakes so most
people don't believe that the stakes are
real so what I mean by that is um
they're in a relationship in in this
case for 21 years they were married and
he's cheap really cheap this is the
episode with Charles and his wife and
he's made millions of dollars he's has
net worth of $13 million he wrote me
saying help all caps my my wife of 21
years is going to divorce me because she
says I'm too cheap W so I get on the
call and I'm talking and when I ask him
like how bad is it people do this thing
where they minimize how bad it is and I
go so you know what's it what's it like
he goes well it's not that I'm cheap I'm
selective and I go okay selective okay
what what other words do you use to
describe yourself that are not actually
what you are and what I do is I raise
the stakes because I need them to
understand what is going to happen I go
what happens if this goes on for another
month he goes basically nothing it'll be
fine I go five years he goes my wife's
going to be pretty sick meanwhile his
wife is over there checked
out because she's given up she's given
up and you can hear it in her voice it's
really really sad but I knew that if the
two of them were really committed to it
that I could help them and that they
could do it I said what happens in 10
years their kids will be out of the
house Etc he goes he starts to realize
it like he really starts to process what
the future is like if he makes no
changes he will have 26 million plus
dollars and he'll be divorced and all
this work that he put into making money
and building a successful family will
have been destroyed why the need to save
$200 on a mattress
purchase and he's smart he he even says
I'm getting it intellectually but I
can't bring myself to do would here so
that's I take that I I say great okay
you get it intellectually I'll work with
that I get his wife on board she's
checked out but I say talk to me what
would it look like and I do a little
work where I um I basically say what if
he said something like this and I say it
in my own words sometimes couples just
haven't modeled it ever they don't know
how to actually say it in the way that
would connect with their partner so I do
it for him and then I say now you try it
in the end his wife wanted Landscaping
for their front yard she said we have
the worst Landscaping on the whole block
and the Landscaping was like modest for
their income she wanted a pelaton and I
think uh when they travel she did not
want to only sit in economy which I
loved she was like we don't have to sit
there anymore we worked really hard we
get to sit in the front of the plane I
was like good for you he sent me a
picture of their pelaton and he said I
bought it and it actually feels good my
wife is happy and more importantly they
were talking about money together not
about how to spend less but about how to
create their rich life together
interesting I do wonder how much of that
is about control as well like if you
feel
like because this person is constantly
complaining paranoid whatever they just
refuse to you know get on board we have
this money but I can't do what we think
we should be doing with it like for
instance if you have two cheap people is
there a problem um there's a a problem
if they come to me because I'll they're
coming to because they have a problem
yeah they they realize there's something
um deep down so with cheap people
they'll say little Clues like they'll go
they'll go I'm not cheap I'm just Frugal
and go okay you're you're cheap but okay
I go how do you know or what what
seagulls what Clues do you have that
you're cheap they go well our friends
don't invite us out anymore nobody comes
over to our house I go why we don't have
a table whoa yeah this is classic
classic this we don't have a table is
classic yeah cheap they're really cheap
I'm not getting somebody on the podcast
who's like oh I really prefer you know
generic Saran Wrap no these they have
money and they have not bought Furniture
in five or seven years like there's
something going on here and remember
this isn't just rich people with their
rich people problems there's also
couples who have like $825,000 of
student loans oh my God so they they
come to me they go I don't think we can
afford to have children but that's a
whole another conversation and so um
with cheap people if two people are
cheap it becomes a self-reinforcing
thing um but if they don't think they
have a problem then I'll never talk to
them because only people who believe
they have a problem and want help will
come on a podcast where they have to
Spill the Beans about all their numbers
it's interesting to me as you were
telling that story I was like okay okay
the the way that Lisa and I solved that
problem early in our marriage when we
didn't have a lot of money was all right
you have your spending money I have my
spending money now that doesn't help
with things like the lawn which is a
shared expense which is what got me
thinking maybe this is a control thing
like if you both have this amount of
money but one of you becomes a roadblock
I can see how that would be really
frustrating uh you get a collision of
values where she's embarrassed by the
lawn she's embarrassed that or not maybe
embarrassed but irritated that other
people get a sit in first class and she
has to go to the back of the plane so I
can see that sort of resentment building
up and when you have a collision of
values the other person seems
legitimately crazy to you it's like why
like what are we doing here this doesn't
make any sense let me give you an
example let's say that um we have a
couple and they're married for five
years and they have kids and they're
talking about their kids you know
newborn and one of them goes well we
should probably start putting some money
aside for him to go to school college
one day and the other one says why would
we do that he could just go to the
military now that's a collision yeah
yeah so that is a collision of financial
values class what class something we
don't talk about in America a lot what
class were you raised in what culture
were you raised in and how do you have
that conversation how do you have that
conversation so they come on and they're
just like bewildered why one of them's
like of course our kids going to go to
college of course we're going to save
cuz that's what my parents did for me
and the other one goes well I don't I
don't need that and do you think one of
them's
right sometimes I I have strong beliefs
when couples come
on sometimes I tell them Point Blank
that one in particular yeah what do you
think the play
is the the play with them is to spend
the bulk of the time understand letting
them talk out loud about how they were
raised and why they believe for example
the guy who wanted them to go to the
military he had actually gone to art
school and he thought it was a total
waste of money total scam um but he got
a good job and he was doing quite well
he was the primary earner she had been
raised in a family where they Super
Value
education she was her college was paid
for in the cultural milu that she grew
up in it was everybody's parents take
care and she wanted to do the same thing
for her kids um
personally I think that if you have a
lot of money it probably makes sense for
you to at least partially if not fully
fund your children's education for a
couple of reasons I'll say this because
my education was not funded by my
parents they were middle class they told
me Point Blank you need to apply for
scholarships right and so I did and
those scholarships paid my way for
undergrad and grad school at Stanford
entirely so I went into college thinking
like oh yeah like I paid my way through
it's so cool and I also had this belief
that if parents pay for their kids their
kids are going to be
spoiled and within the first two weeks I
realized I was totally wrong the first
two weeks of what college
because at at a school like Stanford a
lot of kids have their parents paying
not all there's a lot of financial aid
as well but there's a lot of kids who
have their parents paying for it it
is
indistinguishable there are kids who
went to private school and then went to
a school like Stanford they're not
spoiled some of them are they're kids
who had their parents paying some did
not you can't tell one way or another
and so what I realized was for example
for my future
kids will I will we pay for their
education yeah yeah especially Indians
we pay it's a cultural thing you help
your kids in any educational related
thing so now we're seeing education but
financially speaking what if my kids had
to make a tradeoff with what school they
go to and then they find out at age 25
how much money we
have H oh I couldn't go to this study
abroad program because my mom and dad
didn't give me $5,000 which is like a
rounding error not exactly what I want
to communicate to my kids now do I want
to teach them the right values and hard
work of course but I do think that you
know again some sometimes on the podcast
it's just point blank clear someone is
saying something that's just not fair
and I'll say it but sometimes it's not
my job it's my job to let them come to
their own conclusion I get that for sure
out of curiosity if everybody had to
follow your advice around college debt
yeah specifically what would your advice
be because $825,000 I'll just tell you
right now that was a mistake uh that
that was a mistake and they admitted it
you know the two how do you even rack
that much up what are you doing good
question what do you think the
two occupations that are in the most
debt are I would have thought doctor and
lawyer architect something like that
actually those are good guesses uh
lawyer is a good one because law school
is super expensive and not all lawyers
make a lot of money but no number one
veterinarian that's right I heard you
say it on the what the [ __ ] because they
take out Medical School level debt but
they don't make that much money that's
number one and number two which is what
this couple was physical therapists H so
it's crazy they they they said like on
the last day they basically got an
envelope that said here's how much you
owe and they were honest too they
acknowledged that they had personal
responsibility they had not done their
due diligence they basically just walked
in and and didn't care about debt as so
many students do so you know we spent a
lot of time talking about the difference
between personal responsibility and
systemic and sometimes predatory things
that colleges do regardless of all that
they're like we can't afford to have
kids we're going to be in this debt
forever um should they have gone into
that much debt for that job no what's
your advice to them how the hell do they
get out of that kind of debt so when
they walked in it was hopeless and they
were just like we don't know what to do
and they love their job but like it's
not working know meaning that they're
just not making enough to make the
interest payments and so the amount that
they was growing growing it's just
growing and they just they're not um
yeah they're not happy with where they
are but they feel trapped
okay so we talked about it a lot and two
things happened first on a personal
level I felt that everything was just a
little too hard so they had gone to
college their responsibility they signed
the papers they admitted it and they
took responsibility I appreciate that um
but nobody had educated these 17 or 18
year olds about what interest means
nobody tells these kids that so that's
number one it was a little hard number
two when they got their jobs they were
not you know informed about certain
things then they had I think one
daughter covid hit they lost their child
care God thought you going to say they
lost their child child no no they they
lost their child care so now she was
staying home which cuts into their
earnings which makes it harder to pay
off the debt the interest was growing
why is it growing on a student loan
isn't there something we can do for the
students in America that have taken out
debt okay so a variety of things and in
fact in the end of our call we were
really getting to a a really good place
she had to leave early because I think
the babysitter had to go so even in that
moment I thought to myself gosh this is
everything is just working against them
just a little bit I wish it was just a
little easier for them and I've felt
that way before when you know my wife
and I spent a lot of time learning about
Fitness and there's so much
counterintuitive stuff in Fitness like
so many fads and all this stuff and and
when we travel we try to eat right but
it's hard you know there's like a lot of
times just junk food and we go wow I
wish it were just a little easier to be
healthy in this country just a little
we're willing to do the work but I wish
it were just a little easier the
packaging being clearer not deceptive
the portion sizes and on and on and on
in their case we're able to reach like
an
amazing result which was they if they
worked in their certain jobs for
something like 10 or 15 years they get
some bunch of loan
forgiven so they were like yeah we get
the loan forgiven but we're still going
to have to pay something like $200,000
in taxes and I said well guys show me
your numbers we always look at their
numbers on the
podcast and they had actually been to
their credit investing a little bit
every single month since they were in
their 20s I said guys yes you have this
huge debt but by the time you become 50
you'll have hundreds of thousands of
dollars hundreds so when you get that
$200,000 tax bill you can pay it off and
you'll still have money left over and
this blew their mind because they had
been playing defense for so long that
they forgot what it was like to go on
offense but they have to pay that down
and stay in that job and this all
doesn't come to fruition until they're
50 ych yeah if you could give because
that is not the advice that I would give
them I would be like all right listen
right now you are going to need to make
more money yes you need to cut your cost
down but you need to make more money so
let's talk about how you make more money
whether that is getting a better job
whether that's a side hustle like I'd be
asking what are you doing every day to
get a skill that you can monetize yeah
well I I agree with
you when I'm having these
conversations there's I have to decide
really carefully how far to push it yeah
you're so much Kinder than I am man I
would just wait let me just let me just
soak this in I've never been told I'm
kind before in my life this is a moment
for me wow great job REM you're so kind
thank you I mean I have to I I these
podcasts have made me more patient
because if I were to come out guns
blazing like boom I looked at your
numbers let's do this look at the ratio
and then let's earn you an extra $10,000
a month like technically I can see the
full picture for them but what I realize
is if I come in guns blazing and drop
the bomb on them and then I say well
goodbye nothing changes it has to be
from them and I have to slow it down
like really slow it down so we take
hours we talk about their
childhood sometimes they'll make they'll
make decisions that I don't agree with
but I have to know when to let it go and
when to be like guys this we need to
decide this right now are you a money
therapist I'm not a therapist but I do
love the psychology of it the more I
hear you do it and the more I hear you
talk about it the more it really does
feel like you're a money therapist this
is interesting it may be that my
Approach is just fundamentally flawed
but I can't bear yeah the thought of
these guys like dragging ass until
they're 50 like and look I get it that
most people are not going to respond to
what I'm saying and so you were a better
man than I no no that's not true your
your audience when they come to
you if they come to you and they go just
tell it to me straight you're going to
tell it to them straight that's what
they want and that's they come to me and
say soft Sho it I'm still going to tell
it to them which is why I know that
you're a much nicer human no I'm not
nicer please but I mean although I do
love to hear it and I'm going to make
sure my wife watches this repeatedly I
am nice see uh it's that you know what I
I think for whatever reason I take a lot
of joy in watching people put the pieces
together for themselves I think I've
done for I've been doing my business for
20 years I've done a lot of this stuff
where I'm like here's the answer like
here's how you do it here's how you set
up a Roth IRA and these are the counts
to use and it all works together I like
that stuff too but to me this is the new
challenge of how do I
help other people come to the conclusion
themselves and it is it pushes me in a
lot of ways like I am not naturally
patient um I want sometimes to just tell
them the answer because the math or the
the thing is just like jumping out to me
but I'm finding a lot of Joy maybe just
this season of life and just like
slowing it down and trying to help them
come to the answer themselves okay so
here is how I think you get them there
you first are trying to get them to
unpack their money propaganda the things
that they have come to believe that they
don't realize so talking about the
childhood figuring all that out you try
to help them understand that they need
that people have talked to them about
money but never how to spend money and
so getting them to realize oh my god
I've never even thought about my rich
life I don't know how to spend money
well there is a lot of tactics so
helping them understand what tools are
available to them I'm thinking about our
friends that are way in debt like I had
no idea that there was a loan
forgiveness program or anything like
that I would not have been able to offer
any assistance there um and
you what else what those feel like the
big things you get people to do but what
am I there there's always an inciting
incident mhm so from their childhood no
no no like why are they here what
happened like he went and got the car
repaired and he just like spent 300
bucks without asking me and that's or
the target thing or whatever I want to
get into the Contours of that example so
I make him walk it's right at the
beginning of the episode what happened
who called whom what' you say where were
you eating I want to know the rich
tapestry of their life
because most people start getting really
abstract when they talk about money and
they just say things that they think
people want to hear they go well you
know I'm I'm like pretty Frugal or like
My Philosophy with money is I I kind of
set it up and I don't really want to
micromanage it I go what the what are we
talking about here tell me where you ate
last Thursday and why you guys fought at
that Mexican restaurant I want to get
micro and then we go super macro to talk
about you know how they grew up what are
you teasing out with the micro why make
them go so specific because uh when
somebody tells me um we were sitting at
the restaurant we go on a date night
once a month and the check came and he
didn't offer to pick it up or she didn't
offer to pick it up I go oh okay so what
is that mean to you who normally picks
up the check what kind of restaurant
were you at and when they tell me oh you
like sushi I go you like Omas were you
guys eating Sashimi oh that's fancy what
are you guys a coastal Elite I'm joking
I'm building Rapport I'm showing them
that I'm not Mr money guy with a suit
and tie like I can speak their language
but I'm also trying to I'm trying to
meet them where they are and to meet
them where they are I need to go into
their target conversation or their Sushi
dinner that's where people live people
do not normally live in a spreadsheet
they certainly don't live talking about
money every day money is like the
tiniest part of their life they don't
think about it unless they're fighting
you trying to get people to understand
why they do what they do with the micro
example I'm trying to meet them where
they are so that we all have a shared
Bond oh okay you guys went out to Sushi
and you fought over the bill cool then
that's just sort of like chapter one
then I want to zoom back I want to ask
them each about how do you think about
money I asked somebody recently do you
like money you know what he said not
really I said really tell me why and we
talk about that um I would sometimes uh
sometimes I have a couple of wild cards
I pull out if I'm just stumped so you're
stump you can't figure out why they're
derailing yeah no sometimes they just um
every Avenue I go up is a dead end so I
think of myself like a detective and I'm
trying to find out what's going on by
the time they get to me I have some
basic information about them I have
their finances but do you have go-to
wild
cards um one yeah I do have one one is
uh if I'm really stumped and they will
not acknowledge the state
of what they are doing like they keep
playing small they keep fighting about
little5 expenses and they're like you
know they just don't seem to want to get
out of the weeds I go
what what messages do you think your
kids are picking up from
you instantly for parents of young
children in particular it cuts very deep
because we can excuse a lot about
ourselves well you know it's not that
bad we can even excuse it about our
partner ah it's fine you know whatever
but when it comes to our kids every
parent wants to do the right thing and
so in order to teach your children about
money properly you have to understand
money
yourself and that that really reaches
people if I'm
stumped interesting
so you're trying to find the point of
friction I'm assuming so my wife and I
talk a lot about this idea that we call
getting beneath the tea so the biggest
argument we've ever had was over a cup
of tea of course it wasn't actually a
cup of tea that we were arguing about
but it took us hours to figure that out
we were yelling and screaming and almost
ruined the one vacation that we had
taken in like six
years
so I have a feeling that's what you're
trying to sus out okay where are you
guys colliding and then why are you
colliding is it a story that you're
telling yourself is there a discrepancy
in value system yeah okay so we start
getting under there the thing about the
kids is interesting CU it's like showing
somebody a mirror it's hard to act like
an [ __ ] in front of a mirror cuz all
a sudden you see the way that you hold
your face and way you look and you're
just like oh God and they know it too
they know and they'll even tell me the
ages they're like well you know our
youngest is a little too young to
understand but like our seven-year-old
like you know he knows I think he's
starting to know I go really what does
he do when the two of you fight about
money and they look and I can see them
they look at each other and they look
down they go he goes into his room and
he plays on his iPad and he puts his
headphones
on I mean every parent is feeling that
and when you understand that the couple
that I was talking to in that
scenario the guy had done exactly the
same thing when his parents fought you
start to see how money messages are
passed down from generation to
generation they really are it's
unbelievable and and this is something
that's just not talked about that often
that many of us believe we wake up in
the morning I'm rational and logical I'm
going to make decisions because of my
financial ability and what I like and
often the decisions we're making today
what we wear what we eat is because of
something our parents said around the
dinner table 40 years ago and
repeatedly we see this on the podcast
which is the decisions we make the way
we think about money the way we talk
about it with our partner our
expectations about who picks up the bill
are often totally misaligned with how
much money we have in the bank and to me
that's the beautiful part of it it's
incoherent it's illogical but that's
exactly how we are as human beings
speaking of illogical and incoherent do
you ever ask them about
sex um it comes up but I don't really
ask sometimes they'll tell me our sex
life has suffered yeah yeah it's it's
usually when um it's exactly what you
would think it's when uh in a
heterosexual
relationship she feels that she is
taking care of him it's that yeah and so
it's come up a couple times I rarely ask
about
it proactively but it's clear from tones
of voice with certain couples yeah I've
been thinking about this a lot lately so
I was doing a Q&A and talking about
basically how you live a good life yeah
and one of the answers was you need to
be having sex and I was filming in front
of several people and they were all like
are you sure man I don't know because I
we'll map out here are the seven things
I'm going to cover whatever okay they
were like o you sure about that one and
I was like yes I am very sure about that
one because part of it is becoming the
kind of person worthy of a sexual
relationship and when I think about
money I dude you know way more about
this than I do but if I had to guess
what I would find under the hood is a
lot of self-worth is a lot of feeling uh
certainly for the guy and let's just see
how many people I can unintentionally
piss off because I actually don't mean
this to be controversial but I know it
will
be so there's the famous quote
everything is about sex except for sex
that's about
power and when I think about for guys
feeling powerful
you you want to make a guy lose an
erection make him feel not powerful like
instantly yeah and if there's money
woses and you feel like you're not able
to take care of the situation or your
wife is making more than you I can see
how that becomes very difficult is that
largely culturally defined yes but I
think that that's an echo of something
that's innate so it doesn't have to be
money but that's a proxy for hunting
being good at fighting like dude I've
been on a history kick I'm really going
to derail us here I've been on a history
kick history is a long sequence of
humans just absolutely murdering each
other it's crazy and it's when when
you're in a situation where people can
just roll up on your house and Slaughter
you and your whole family that it's just
do you have enough upper body strength
to fight them off it just is what it is
and so you've got millions of years of
evolution ining that guys need a way to
express no I'm I'm powerful I can do
this this is why I said my one fear
around money is not being studly in
front of my wife that [ __ ] I lost this
all now my wife has been there for all
of the building and so when I say that
she's earned her half but at the same
time I feel really powerful for having
contributed as much as I have and you
know having helped build everything and
feeling and I think she would agree
being in a leadership position and all
that and so there is so much complexity
and if there is Bed Death in a
relationship that is going to increase
the amount of friction in everything
else because you don't have the bonding
mechanisms and do you think do you think
that that comes at the front end or the
back end meaning do you think that
having a healthy sexual relationship
drives that feeling of power and
connection or do you think that having
connection drives a healthy sexual
relationship they are so intertwined
it's a little bit chicken in the egg you
probably need the sense of power first
to be in that aroused State like I find
this funny now that I'm quoting Will
Smith though there was a time where I
would have jumped right to it where he
said that I work this hard for the way
that my wife looks at me and I instantly
understood that wow and when you first
get into a sexual
relationship that look of like I really
desire you is intoxicating on both sides
of the fence now it comes from very
different things so I would want the
person that I'm about to be intimate
with to have that kind of reaction to me
now what does that reaction come from a
myriad of things but in a long-term
committed
relationship one of them is going to be
just do I see you as a high functioning
person in this relationship money is
certainly going to be a part of that
high functioning I I I like what you're
saying because what it really reveals is
that relationships particularly marriage
is not just
about love
it's not it's it's a business
Arrangement it's a practical Arrangement
it it may be an economic Arrangement and
for most of History it was and you know
I think about seeing parents with their
kids at a restaurant somewhere and one
of them's got to take their crying kid
outside and and they're they just they
intuitively know who's going to do it
this time that is more than just
romantic love like that is a partnership
and money is a part of that
so that's why I like talking about money
because it's one of those core tenants
in a relationship that drives things and
is driven by those things you have money
and you're on the same page you're
connected when you're connected you can
also talk about money earn money
together Etc you said a word that I love
it's a huge word in my world it's the
c-word contribute who contributes I find
that couples where one
person uh earns way more than the other
the lower earner is
obsessed with the word contribute
interesting they're obsessed because in
America we value that which we can
quantify if I can put on a spreadsheet
it must be
valuable how many hours did I work how
much money did I make that's valuable
but did I take the kids out for a walk
today
not
quantifiable therefore for whatever
reason in our culture less valuable so
imagine you're in a relationship and you
are not earning as much or even anything
your partner
is where do you find your value that's
question number one now question number
two what if you are a man in a
heterosexual relationship and your
partner earns more than you this is
becoming more and more common you know
in urban cities in their 20s young women
women earn more than young men so what
does it mean for a man who they almost
always use the same word too when I say
what does a man mean to you what do you
think their answer is providing Bingo
he's a provider always every guy is just
like boom I get it and so I say okay
well let's just look at the numbers
right now your partner's making two
times what you're making three times
four times in one case 100 times what he
was making yeah I said so what does that
make you
he was at a
loss this is a big challenge that is
going to grow and grow because incomes
will change who earns it is going to
change and we're not having those
conversations yet they're showing up on
the podcast they're showing up in
private conversations but we're going to
have to really rethink what contribute
means what provider means even what
being a man or a woman means and I'm I
welcome those conversations I think that
the beautiful part is in a relationship
you get to choose what your relationship
is and the only person who it really
matters is your partner if the two of
you have a relationship that's working
for you
fantastic that's good on paper but we
are both the shout and the Echo and it
matters most what our partner thinks I
think that is for sure but it is going
to be the rare person not that it won't
happen and everyone's going to point to
the exceptions but it'll be be the rare
person that can be mocked and dered by
their friends family and if you have a
social media account social media and
they do exist and I know some of them
and they're just you know they they
certainly let it roll off their back now
does it get to them even though they say
no I'm going to say that you're talking
about for example a guy who's the lower
ear stay stays at home stay at home Dad
they call yeah they have terms right oh
what are you just a house husband things
like that okay so it's like what do we
do about that I don't even know that
it's what we do is it's an
acknowledgement yeah people need to
understand that you you are going to be
influenced by what other people say and
so you're going to have to have a
strategy for coping with that okay so
this couple where um she wanted him to
pick up the check for dinner and he was
like yeah
okay but when he tried to pick up the
check she goes no I want you to save
that money and put it in your Roth IR oh
God so then wait then it gets even
better yeah we find out the
incomes they they don't live together
they're dating he has a business he's
starting to pay himself a modest amount
he pays himself $2,000 a month okay
great his expenses are low he lives with
his parents guess how much she makes per
month I know the punchline because I've
listen to so much of your content she
makes
[Music]
$200,000 per month okay she's an
entrepreneur as well so just think about
the Dynamics that are wrapped up
something he was a welder is a welder
and um the Dynamics here of gender
expectation income
expectation uh relational expectation
you know we've been together a year but
we're not married so we actually came up
with a strategy just like you said you
have to come up with a strategy that
works for the two of you and you have to
plan for what's going to happen because
we don't live on an island we live in
the world so in their case they agreed
on how much they want to spend each
month going out to dinner they agreed on
how it was going to be distributed she
agreed that some of the dinners would be
paid with her money but she still wanted
him to pick up the check when they were
at a restaurant interesting that is so
fascinating it and and guess what guess
what happened when she was a kid guess
who picked up the check when her parents
went out to dinner Dad Dad and
interestingly in that case her mom made
more than her
dad very inter I mean this is this is
crazy right these are real people so I
orchestrated I helped them practice I
said how are you guys going to get this
credit card handed over because he's
going to have to pay with your credit
card you don't want to have to do at the
restaurant it might be awkward they
planned it ahead of time when when you
know they go to pick each other up so
interesting map it out so some of these
rituals seem like crazy but at least
they're being honest like I love this
she's like I know this is dumb but like
I want you to pick up the check that is
so fascinating isn't that half of life
we're doing some dumb [ __ ] but we're not
even honest about it if if we're going
to do dumb stuff let's at least be
honest about it hey I probably don't
need to buy this sweater for this price
it it does it really cost is it five
times better than the sweater I can get
five times cheaper no but you know what
I just want to okay fine I'm being
honest about it it's valuable to me
fascinating so fascinating so my wife
went through something interesting with
that where when we first got together
and I was the only one working but she
loved it that I was paying for dinner or
I would buy something then it got to the
point where she was making her own money
and she was like I still want you to pay
for it and so I was like oh that's
fascinating I'm like but you've earned
half the money she's like yeah I know
but it's still I just really like it and
then she got to the point where she'd
been an entrepreneur for long enough and
leading teams and all that where she was
like actually I want to pay for it
myself and I'm like that's so
interesting so watching as her internal
identity changes the things that she
wants changes and but you have to
communicate that stuff because it was
really I loved that I was the only one
working and making money and that I
could take care of her and it was you
know friction fi and we talked about
this last time it was friction field
when she then stepped into an
entrepreneurial role and I had to
reorient that I didn't have somebody at
home taking care of anything anymore I
had a business partner and it was was
like okay that was an interesting
transition it never really meant a lot
to me to be like Oh I'm the one paying
for it so that wasn't uh it there was no
friction when she said it but I was like
it's so interesting did you like when
steps two and step three happened when
she said I'm making money but I still
want you to pay and then the next step
where she said I actually want to pay if
I it really wasn't big in either
direction but if I had to 5149 it I was
51 more into when she was like would you
pay for me oh you like that yeah because
what uh being a provider and I can
actually boil this down and I feel
really bad for guys that don't have any
physical prowess
because my wife is far more petite than
I
am and that makes me feel some kind of
way like I like that and so even though
we're now completely equal in our
earning potential and our contributions
to the business and all of that I still
do like have that well I'm bigger and
stronger and that makes me feel some
kind of weight and I dude I get it
people are going to be freaking out but
I'm my whole thing the epith on my
Tombstone ought to read you're having a
biological experience and there are just
realities to be faced about where we
start doesn't mean that's where we end
up I'm actually I have an eminite
personality and so I'm way more on the
female Spectrum in terms of traditional
temperament my wife is more on the
masculine so it's utterly fascinating to
see even in that we break in Fairly
traditional ways that's interesting
stuff is fascinating I just like hearing
the progression or the change that you
and your wife had in terms of something
as specific as who picks up the check I
think that's to me the magic is in the
details that's always why I always start
with a specific example where were you
eating what happened what happened with
the car cuz to me that's where the truth
is revealed when the check comes and the
bill gets slid what happens and you know
for me I will say that um you know your
values really come into play like I I
really appreciate Financial generosity
in my
relationship I'm generous I like to be
generous I like to pay for my loved ones
and all that but I also like my partner
to be generous and that's a conversation
we had um so I I guess I just love
hearing couples in the way that they
navigate money and their values together
it is so specific it's always different
but the general ideas are very similar
it just makes you feel connected to
other people when you can hear that you
know I'm not the only person who's had
this conversation with my partner you've
had it and other people have had it it
makes you realize we're all human and
we're all dealing with money in our own
ways yeah and it's so important to pull
all this stuff into the to talk about it
to acknowledge whatever weirdness that
you have for whatever reason you like
this thing be honest about it don't you
know judge yourself or worry about it
because that's going to create a problem
all right man I think that you're one of
the most practical people out there I
love that you are out there putting out
content where can people engage with you
the podcast the podcast it's called I
will teach you to be rich you can find
it anywhere and pick the episode that
looks the juiciest to you you don't to
start in any particular one and I think
within 10 minutes you will be hooked I
like it I agree boys and girls speaking
of being hooked if you haven't already
be sure to subscribe and until next time
my friends be legendary take care peace
for more money myths you must avoid be
sure to check out this episode with
Jasper Singh now really fast before we
move on so this is the part that people
need to understand about why the rich
get richer because I'm super as a rich
guy I'm like I'm gonna get richer like
what
great I never understood how