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welcome to another episode of
conversations with Tom I have another
three-peat guest on today which I'm very
excited about when you have that kind of
history with somebody it's way more fun
Stephen Cutler welcome to the show Tom
it's great to see you again dude for
real um first of all somehow I missed or
maybe this happened since last we spoke
but I can't imagine you've been twice
nominated for a Pulitzer Prize
uh that none of that happened yeah
that's happened along the way small
furry prayer and stealing fire we're
both uh nominated by the Publishers for
for the Pulitzer that's crazy
congratulations amazing
um the new book which I'm super stoked
on and honestly
um never have I read a book that so
lined up with my personal experience
where I thought oh my God yes like
somebody's putting words in science to
this thing that feels so perfectly
aligned with what I have experienced
um the book being the art of impossible
in it you talk about something that
really lit me on fire which is this
notion of the habit of inferiority and I
want to start there and then we'll get
into sort of what you mean by impossible
and all that stuff totally
totally but the Habit the habit of
inferiority all right so I wish I I wish
you would have known it was coming
because the habit of inferiority is a
quote from Harvard psychologist William
James and it was it's either in the very
first psychological textbook ever
written in 1901 or uh something he wrote
right around then so this is turn of the
century and what he was talking about at
the time was the fact that most people
have second wins right we have a first
win you get tired you push through you
got a second when you said but most of
us have no idea we've got a third wind
and a fourth wind and a fifth win
because we never get used to even
pushing into that second wind let alone
Beyond and he said the reason is
that human beings one way or another are
designed to work at much greater speed
and with much greater efficiency but
we've gotten the habit of infuriating
right we are we've gotten used to
performing at a mediocre level and
that's what we expect and for geeky
reasons that we can cover in a second if
you want to there's a lot of
neurobiology that basically has your
body as a homostatic static system and
when you level set it mediocre it is
going to take extraordinary amounts of
motivation energy to get up to like
super expert right you have to train you
have to fight how you train and train
how you fight to quote the Army and that
was the point James was making but he's
also making hay we're all hardwired for
Extraordinary if we can get out of the
habit of impurity so that's another
thing in the book that um it comes
towards the very very end I think it was
the quote of the Final Chapter
and it resonated with me in the same way
that this early concept of how we all
habituate ourselves to inferiority was
the Nietzsche quote of today is
greatness possible
um what does that quote mean to you
because when I it hit me and I was like
oh my God and then I thought actually
I'm not sure if he means it the way that
I'm taking it which is like asking
yourself that every day to like be
charged up and get after it but so
yes and no so little context around
nietzsa that's in the book Nietzsche was
the is considered the first modern high
performance philosopher or thinker and
the reason when I say modern I mean is
he did his work right after Darwin wrote
the Origin of Species so suddenly oh wow
body evolves over time shaped by
Evolution blah blah and if you want to
understand how to kind of improve the
body or understand the body you need to
understand Evolution Nietzsche said and
it was one of a whole bunch of thinkers
who were like hey wait a minute mind
evolves Consciousness evolves for those
of us interested in getting more out of
our life he want is interested in
becoming the Uber mesh right the
Superman he thought it was in all within
all of us I tend to agree James tended
to agree the big difference Nietzsche
said hey only 10 of the population
should try this James said no no
um
very good point maybe true today
doubtful his point was and this was from
Nietzsche through about the humanist
psychologist so like young sort of
thought this way and then you get into
like Carl Rogers and Maslow and that's
sort of the line so in the 30s and 40s
it starts to shift but the general
thinking was nobody really Blanc Mommy
and culture way too much
and most of us this remember 18th
century Victorian era right and Freud
especially was like the weight of mommy
the way to family the weight of all that
psychosis you're inheriting and the
weight of these really repressive
cultures if you don't like ever all of
them said you have to break with this
stuff completely
um I think that's probably still true
today to some level you have to become
your own person and autonomy really
matters for Peak Performance etc etc but
I don't think culture is nearly as
restrictive but all that also depends
where you were born what you look like
what kind of money you have etc etc
so wait he was saying that you're so
weighed down by this stuff that you
won't be able to break out of it so
don't even bother and by the way no he
was saying that most people are not
going to be able to pull it off
um he had a formula like as I laid out
Nietzsche had a four-step process that
has not really changed he was trying to
follow the biology to becoming the
Superman yeah to becoming the Superman
and as you said when you read the book
you went oh my God it's all this stuff
the reason is all this stuff is we are
all biologically shaped by Evolution we
are all designed for Peak Performance
there's a limited set of tools there
there's a lot of them obviously but
they're limited they're meant to work in
an order in a sequence and that like
Nietzsche anybody who's ever done this
when they read the art of impossible at
any level right you should read and go
oh wow there's a bunch of stuff that's
familiar to me because I'm doing it I
didn't know all this other stuff was
around it to people who haven't really
gone after super high hard goals it may
be completely new to them and wow
there's a blueprint who knew but for
folks who have gone hard they should
have your experience of oh my God I
didn't like here's all the science
here's here's everything in order I did
all this [ __ ] of course you did There's
we all have the same biology to work
with so you need to noticed it first
that that's what I want to talk about so
I've never read Nietzsche and forgive me
I'm sure I'm mispronouncing it but it
always feels weird to when you hear
somebody say it to then just immediately
adopt their way of saying it
um so what is how did he Define a
Superman like I think of Superman the
guy in tights with the cape flying
literally who's right over my shoulder
no so all these people were interested
in what Abraham Maslow started terming
self-actualization they were interested
in becoming the very best version of
yourself that was possible right and for
Nietzsche all that was much of that was
about like creative self-expression also
so when he talks about being the best
version of yourself he's sort of like
you're excellent in a kind of innovative
genius kind of way and the quote I love
from Nietzsche is man is something to be
overcome what have you done today to
overcome him what did he mean by that
yeah weaker inferior nature
well
as so
the point we've been making all along is
the only thing Peak Performance can be
is figuring out how to get your biology
to work for you rather than against you
but when you're not working with your
biology it will actually work against
you right and it really will like you
know
sort of crush you one way or another and
I'll give you a simple example you can
go into a lot of detail but there are
eight major known causes of depression
two of them are the very familiar ones
one of them is genetics right I don't
have I can't manufacture serotonin no
dopamine take you back and the other is
trauma obviously the other six are
literally about what happens when you
screw up your intrinsic motivation what
hap right when you're not when you're
not living with passion purpose regular
access to flow all of the things that
essentially the Articles possible are
about the tools that I'm breaking down
when you use them right the result is
Superman when you use them wrong or
don't use them at all if you're not
using the organism the way the organism
is designed to be used the result is
anxiety and depression and we're in the
middle of the largest anxiety and
depression kind of epidemic in the
history of the world so there's I
strikes me that there's a correlation
here that's interesting so um I want to
push on this idea of of man is to be
overcome and what have you done today to
overcome him so if man is sort of the
Baseline biology and I have to
understand that I'm having this
biological experience I've got to work
with my biology instead of against it
let me give you a simple example let's
get out of the theoretical simple
example yeah so one of the things Peak
so let's back up it's what when we're
talking about tools for Peak Performance
simplest most powerful tool we have is
our attention is focus
Focus actually takes quite a bit of
energy like if you think about I gotta
pay attention to something I'm not
totally interested in you're burning a
lot of calories the brain is two percent
of your body mass 25 year energy at rest
so when you're expending energy right
big energy hog the brain always wants to
conserve energy this is why when I said
earlier we're homeostatic creatures and
we get stuck in mediocrity it's this
problem the brain wants to conserve
energy it doesn't want to burn extra
energy if it doesn't have to who's
trying to keep you alive makes sense
um
there are a lot of our intrinsic
motivators give us Focus for free when
you're curious about something you get
focused for free when you're passionate
about something think about romantic
love when you fall in love with somebody
how much attention you pay to that
person that like that neurochemically is
the same neural chemicals underneath any
passion right passion of
Entrepreneurship the passion doing a
podcast passion for writing a book all
of it's the same cocktail
fear is a great one fear is a fantastic
focusing mechanism Peak performers in
you I know do this I do this when you're
looking for a new challenge you're like
well what the hell scares me a lot
because I know I'm going to pay a lot of
attention to it and you go in that
direction you can't do that until you've
laid in some other Peak Performance
skills but once you get good enough to
use fear as a compass basically you get
a tremendous amount of work done that
everybody else has to spend energy on
for free simply because you've learned
to like process you know handle the fear
and and you can trust your ability to
step up to the challenge etc etc all
those kinds of things you're getting
tons of work done for free so when it
works what are you getting for fear
Focus for free when it doesn't work what
are you getting anxiety and depression
one of the large epidemics on earth does
that help yeah yeah for sure so going to
the core concept of the book which
definitely feels like a companion piece
to some of the earlier things you've
written especially the rise of Superman
you know coming to understand just how
far human potential is out there and the
early thing that you talked about you
know that fourth and fifth wind
um that's the thing that that David
goggin said that always resonated with
me when you just think you're broken
you're spent your your second wind is
dead and gone you couldn't possibly go
anymore you're only 40 percent of the
way to your actual abilities and I I
just always hit me so hard
reading the book one I love that you go
into the process and make it seem like
hey you can get better at all of these
different steps but there was one thing
in the beginning that I found really
interesting and that is that you called
it the art of impossible and not the
science of impossible even though you go
ham on the science in the book I'm
guessing or maybe not but I'm guessing
that you at one point considered that
sort of alternate take on the title
why'd you ultimately Focus the reader on
the art of this all it's a great
question and
despite the fact that every single thing
I did in you know I'm crazy about
evidence-based
performance right like you know at the
flow research Collective we're training
about a thousand people a month at this
point you know between it's I've trained
I think at this point over a hundred
thousand people so there's a tremendous
amount besides the neurons how to get
into flow or just people yeah well you
can't flow comes with Peak Performance
right so like all that stuff together
that's a lot of data points is my point
and so almost everything in the book is
based on that but a couple of things
that are true no matter what one for
example flow triggers you want more flow
there are flow triggers there's 22 to
work with which triggers you're gonna
master and gonna be most useful for you
that comes down to your genetics and
your Early Childhood experience those
things play a major role so I I can say
these are the this is the sweet this is
the tool kit figuring out which one
lurks exactly perfectly for you and they
may change over time that's an art
that's a self-awareness that you're
gonna have to carry into the world
that's not something I can say calm is
exactly what you do it's based on the
evidence and so like my staff like I'm
trained as a hardcore investigative
journalist from a time when we had crazy
crazy fact Checkers so like I have five
sources for every you know fact I I try
to put in the book everything's been
checked with five other you know what I
mean and I'm just nuts about it and the
scientific method I work with some of
the smartest neuroscientists in the
world and they won't work with me if I'm
not super crazy rigorous and I start
spawning nonsense in public right my
company goes away so like everything is
super I try to tighten it down as
possible but I can't tell you that
everything in the book is completely
evidence-based ninety percent of it's in
evidence-based but there's a section for
example on long-haul creativity what
does it take to sustain creativity at a
really high level over a long career
there's very little research done on
that in the real world I have spent 10
years investigating experts about it and
I summed it up and gave you the best
stuff I thought in the the book that's
still my opinion and so I couldn't call
it the science of impossible because
even though it's probably 85 percent
there
there's 15 that it's not and I don't
think it's truthful and the other side
of it is there's an art to it you have
to bring your own I can't train you in
self-awareness right I can't train you
in self-awareness a little bit but you
actually have to bring that in into the
work
um yourself and that self-awareness is
an art form
you know the create learning how to be
create creative for example is another
one like I could tell you that one of
the easiest ways to be creative and you
know this is to develop a personal style
I'm not saying go high fashion or I'm
saying style is a choice make a choice
right if you're choosing to work at
Microsoft and where khakis in a button
down because you blend in it makes you a
better manager that's a choice that's
cool you're being a ninja I like it
right but like when you're not making
those choices on a moment by moment
basis you're not trading up creativity I
can tell you that as a fact the next
step in how to do that in your life I'm
now getting into my opinions and I try
like I try to differentiate and I
couldn't yeah so that's me being a geek
and like just a reporter and like a guy
trying to like work in Neuroscience
um and be credible and respectable and
things like that but that's really why
there was something else in the book
that
um I thought might be part of the answer
certainly rhymes with what you were just
saying which is this concept of
Personality doesn't scale biology scales
what did you mean by that
but the long story or the short
um I'll take the long one what whatever
is is mostly here's the here
this is it because this is a lesson I
learned this super hard way and also
I'll I'll go I'll go in the middle but I
did not have a normal life by any
stretch of the imagination I was a
working magician by the time I was 10
years old I was doing bar mitzvahs and
weddings I was working in restaurants at
11 years old doing birthday parties all
Saturday and all Sunday and magicians
are strange weird people that are like
one step out of the circus and they're
con man and Jewel thieves and right and
I went from being a magician to being a
punk rocker and hanging out with bikers
and more weird dangerous kind of people
and then I went into covering Action
Sports especially in the early days
where like the people I knew
once a month nearly died this was just
how people lived their lives and I
covered science mostly that in that era
field biologist I was an animal geek the
field biologist you want to go to Africa
and hang out with lemurs you got to hang
out with field biologists and you think
the action is professional action sport
athletes are dangerous and crazy and
like I remember the being in Madagascar
I got caught in a lightning storm once
and while running through the mountains
back to this jungle camp and I got back
there and but just right the MacArthur
genius award-winning primatologist
conversation conservation who's a dear
friend of mine was there and she's like
did you get struck by lightning I was
like what do you mean did I get struck
she's like yeah it happens there was
this guy from Harvard he got struck
twice on the way back once and I was
like the people literally like I'm
hanging out with people who routinely
like they get struck by lightning twice
and still make it back to Camp right and
this is just like another day so my
point is my risk tolerances were totally
out of whack I had like grown up in
incredibly high-risk crazy environments
and I started learning something about
Peak Performance and flow and look when
anybody learns a little bit about Peak
Performance about flow all that stuff
you make the same mistake you start
giving advice especially those people
you care about and love and you you're
like oh my God I see so much potential
in you if you only just right and
because I had was publishing books and I
was writing columns or Psychology today
and like I had some street cred they
took my advice
and
one person nearly died two people one
guy put himself in the hospital one
woman almost put herself in the hospital
almost caused a divorce two friends
still won't talk to me and I don't blame
them
um the point is that personality doesn't
scale things that are foundational to
Peak Performance what your risk
tolerances are these are genetically
hardwired by dopamine receptors and
availability of the neurochemical
dopamine and they're shaped by early
childhood experience you can change them
over long periods of time like a decade
you cannot flip a switch and do it
overnight no matter how hard you try and
it's really dangerous to do it and it's
not just that where you are in the
introversion extroversion scale same
thing so there's about 10 critical
things to big performance that are
biologically or biologically hardwired
and set up by early childhood experience
that should create your personality that
have huge impacts on how you should
study and learn Peak Performance is
another reason why it's an art and not a
science and this is the same answer the
point is personality doesn't scale so
many people in the coaching Peak
Performance World they figure out works
for them they teach to other people and
they get disastrous results people can't
do it it's not actual try to get it and
they get bad it's for this very reason
we have a foundational idea at the
flurries Collective and in this book
flourish Collective is my company that
studies this stuff
um
biology scales because because it's the
very thing that Evolution designed to
work for everyone so you find the
founding and when I say biology I really
mean the neurobio biology what's going
on in your brain and your body when
you're performing at your very best
figure out what that core basic
mechanism is and you and train from that
if you try to train from personality or
from psychology people forget that when
you use a term for example like mindset
if I say mindset you probably think I
mean attitude towards life when
scientists say mindset they mean a very
specific thing that happens in the brain
and it does not mean attitude towards
life there's a whole other thing that we
could talk about that is attitude
towards life they mean a very specific
set of things that are going on in the
brain that we may or may not completely
understand yet but psychology is a
metaphor for neurobiology neurobiology
is mechanism it's not it's not mechanism
we understand a hundred percent but it's
damn we understand it well enough to be
practical so that's what I mean by that
and if you can get down to the mechanism
we are all designed for Peak Performance
we're hardwired for it we have by
Evolution so that's the biology that's
what I mean by getting your biology work
for you rather than against you and by
the way again not a new idea to go back
to William James 1901 this is in the
first psychological textbook ever
written he says the great thing then in
all education is to make your nervous
system your Ally and not your enemy
well
Let's uh you why do we start where the
book starts right and the because this
is you know my whole thing is like hey
let's follow the biology the biology
starts someplace
as I said all like focus and attention
is the Gateway at all performance right
you have two big levers you've got focus
and attention and then you've got habit
right and the things you focus your
attention on repeatedly in the actions
you start executing as a result those
become your habits those are your big
levers right so
if I said earlier the goal is to get
focused for free you have to start with
your big intrinsic or internal
motivators
I always say that you have to start with
motivation because motivation is what
gets you into the game the truth is
hitting your career goals is not easy
you have to be willing to go the extra
mile to stand out and do hard things
better than anybody else but there are
10 steps I want to take you through that
will 100x your efficiency so you can
crush your goals and get back more time
into your day you'll not only get
control of your time you'll learn how to
use that momentum to take on your next
big goal to help you do this I've
created a list of the 10 most impactful
things that any High achiever needs to
dominate and you can download it for
free by clicking the link in today's
description all right my friend back to
today's episode
um and you when you're interested in
that you really now there's a certain
amount of Safety and Security stuff that
um sort of you have to be able to pay
your bills and have a little left over
right before this stuff starts working
if you're below that line you have to
solve that problem first this isn't a
hundred percent of the time but is it
general rule
um meaning like Maslow's pyramid is not
a real thing it's not really a pyramid
but he wasn't particularly wrong about
that for biological reasons if you're
not if you have too much anxiety and
fear I can't make a living I can't pay
my bills how am I going to eat this
stuff is really hard so I'm not I'm
assuming that stuff is taken care of
that stuff is taken care of right and
you just a little bit over uh like my my
bills are being paid is you're fine you
can start there the place you want to
start is curiosity because it's the
simplest motivational fuel curiosity
neurochemically is a little bit of the
neurochemical norepinephrine this is you
know if you get a lot of it it's anxiety
whoa I'm paying too much attention to
this [ __ ] a little of it is excitement a
little that primes your brain for
learning you're interested what's gonna
happen next kind of thing and you get
dopamine dopamine is talking about it as
a reward chemical a pleasure chemical
cell phone own dings you know you gotta
that's dopamine that pleasure but it's
basically a it's a focus in chemical but
it also gets us up for the fight it's uh
get it gets you ready to take risks or
you know encounter the world or step up
that's what dopeman's all about is your
curiosity inborn or can you do things
you can totally cultivate curiosity over
time and the way you literally I mean
it's not that hard you literally have to
notice anything that catches your
attention and give it a couple extra
explore it for one extra beat just
follow start following your curiosity
and the way
the next step is you have to turn
curiosity into passion and the point is
really simple curiosity is a great
motivator right when you're interested
and curious about something just think
about any TV show you kind of oh my God
I didn't know they did ice fishing on
Mars look at that honey right like
you're paying a little bit of attention
um and you're not working at it passion
is the next step passion is literally
the intersection of multiple Curiosities
most people don't realize this because
when they when I say Tom tell me about a
passionate athlete you're like well
here's LeBron James windmills dunking
scowling you know over three Defenders
and that's what you think of and you
forget that passion on the front end is
like a little kid in a driveway shooting
balls through a hoop that's what passion
looks like on the front end does not
look like what we think it looks like
and when we compare ourselves to the end
result that's really demotivating and
not going to work very well but Pat
curiosity and there's I mean I can I
will I can give you listeners
passionrecipe.com which is the step
process in the book for this I'm giving
it away to anybody for free so don't
just listen to me go there you know we
have interactive PDF takes you through
all these steps but you can there's the
intersection of multiple Curiosities
that's passion neurochemically it's more
dopamine and more uh uh nor epinephrine
just a lot more the next step is once
you know what your passionate about you
want purpose you want us to attach that
passion across greater than yourself
there are lots of Peak Performance
reasons why but at an oracle level you
start getting more feel-good powerful
drugs oxytocin and endorphins right blah
blah and then once you have your purpose
well then what do you need you need the
freedom to pursue your purpose you need
autonomy that's your next big intrinsic
motivator and once you have oh I've got
I've got the freedom to explore my
purpose you need Mastery the skills to
explore that purpose well these are the
big five intrinsic motivators there are
others right but these are the big main
five they give us the most neurochemical
reward and they're literally designed to
work in that sequence and if you get
them all right they all do double duties
as flow triggers so Flow State of
Optimal Performance we can go into more
depth if you want but let's for Optimal
Performance right now
flow follows focus it only shows up when
all of our attention is in the right
here right now so all of flow's triggers
Drive attention into the now they do
this by increasing mostly focusing
chemicals like norepinephrine and
dopamine do a couple other things but
that's not important the point is all
these things curiosity passion purpose
autonomy Mastery they're all flow
Triggers on their own you'll get a
little bit of like neurochemicals maybe
not enough to put you in the state but
when you get them all in a row you're
doing your work and it's flow 60 70 80
of the time and since the uptick on
performance and flow is so enormous so
huge that not only I mean along the way
anytime you have any of these things
you're getting so much more work done
for free right you're getting farther
faster and by the way once you get all
your intrinsic motivators right lined up
you know exactly I've got the skills for
Mastery cool what do you do next you
need goals where the hell am I going and
the biology says you need three sets of
gold is a mission statement for your
life a series of high hard goals like I
want to be a great writer as my mission
statement I want to write a book on
cooking I want to write a book on anime
I want to write a book on Batman I want
to write a book right okay I'm just I'm
Kaiser so zagging you
sorry
um but uh yeah so you know those are
your high heart goals and then you
underneath that you need clear goals
what am I going to do today
precisely and then it goes on from there
my point is
that's a system that's the biology and
when I say like you need three levels of
goals we are goal directed creatures we
have a giant like we're either sort of
shaped by our fears or our goals if you
want to like that's that's sort of what
dry how human beings work at a really
basic level so the biology of goal
setting is amazing like you get your
high hard goals right you can get an 11
to 25 boost in motivation simply by
setting the right kind of goals and
that's if innate you're working in the
eight hour day that's your Baseline
that's like two free hours of work
give give people the idea around what a
high hard goal is a high our goal is
exactly what I said if my mission
statement purpose is I want to be a
great writer or I want to end world
hunger let's say it's I want to end
world hunger then my high heart goals is
I want to become a vertical farming
expert I want to learn everything I can
about restorative sustainable
agriculture isn't part of the definition
though that it needs to be like
within your reach but hard so that not
something not right out of the mission
statement right mission statement goal
that's a big high heart goals should be
within your reach but they should be
like one to five year timelines within
your reach is how I think about them
different people sort of put different
time Horizons on them
um what this research shows is one to
five years I find personally with the
rate of change in society and all the
other work I do with Peter all that
stuff
I find I can't set High hard goals that
are farther than three years in the
future because so much is changing that
I so I that's the window that I I have
started working in recently
um but I again you also have to figure
out what's right for you in that one I
think
um and yes but it's got to be attainable
and the whole point is
um you have to break them down if it's
not if you can't wrap your head around
and believe it's attainable break it
into chunks until the chunks are
attainable right and those are your high
heart goals part of what I find so
intoxicating about your work and just
like the space of Peak Performance is
you know going back to where we started
so most people are living a really sort
of shitty version of what their life
could be they're not pushing themselves
they're not setting High hard goals
they're not making big demands of
themselves they're never finding out
what they're actually capable of doing
and so look I get it personality doesn't
scale but so my obsession is with what I
call the physics of Being Human
um what you would refer to as the
biology there are just some things that
are true they are Universal and I will
postulate that doing hard things is
universal that there is some wiring in
you to make sure that you went out and
hunted and faced getting gored by
something raising kids like you've got
to be willing to do hard [ __ ] yeah no I
mean like when I say like when I
literally we are hardwired to go big and
not going big is bad for us like flat
out and we all know this if those I
always say this at the beginning of the
book and I really believe this is true
um
I think the only thing harder than
trying to than the sort of the agony of
trying to chase down your dreams is the
agony of not chasing down any of them it
is so much work I kind of figure it's
it's the way if I was being
darker or more blunt or more punk rock I
would say look it sucks here it sucks
here for everybody it doesn't matter
it's called life it's just hard here
it's unpleasant it's gonna be unpleasant
but it's going to suck whether or not
you're trying to be Jesus Gandhi Martin
Luther King or you sit in front of the
TV and watch reruns a castle right this
makes it suck Mr copper I don't even
think it's I don't think it sucks I just
think there's like a I just think it's
hard it is I think life itself you said
the agony of chasing your goals yeah I
mean like
Tom you've done really hard [ __ ] in your
life the joy of life is doing hardship
the joy of life is realizing that oh my
God what I mean by meaning and purpose
and and when and we all know this think
back on your life and what are my
favorite things that I've ever done that
mean the matter they're never [ __ ] that
you were given that accidentally popped
into your life that this stuff you
worked really hard for right like that
for me that list like my marriage I've
been married for 15 years been married
for 15 years it's hard freaking work you
know what I mean and really that's a dip
that's a difficult kind of one and the
book I talk about the difference between
capital I and small I impossible
marriage is a small line possible to get
right right it's there's no clear Gap
bit point between a and b and
statistically right now pretty shitty
odds of success right right marriage
right now you're 50 percent odds of
success
and that's just that's that they're a
little better than a lot of the other
embossibles but yeah the notion of not
going after big things is hard for you
really I resonate with that a lot I
think though that you're right that
pursuing that stuff there is an Agony to
it there's also an ecstasy and the
ability to vacillate to ride the waves
of like [ __ ] this really sucks and I
just failed at something and it mattered
and it doesn't have to be a broken bone
but it's like you know I really went
after something and you've got the high
of that and then you know like take your
own context some of what you've written
has been nominated for Pulitzer Prize
like that's insanity but then I'm sure
there were other books where you were
banging your head against the wall and
they didn't go where you wanted them to
go and so or just like a shitty review
there are books that were nominated for
Pulitzer prizes that like in one of the
books that got nominated with the police
approach is the hardest thing I've ever
done in every every word sucked
yeah I mean literally I've never had
that experience I didn't know you could
have that experience I had that
experience
um now what did it suck because it was
forcing you to confront your sort of
limitations that it was like everything
was just it uh I had it was uh I was
co-writing the book with somebody that
was very difficult to work with I had an
editor that did not trust the subject
matter at all like the book was
nominated for a Pulitzer by the
publisher but one month before it came
out the editor called me up without my
co-writer on the phone and said if you
don't rewrite this entire book right now
I won't publish it whoa yeah like it was
Heavy they hated it they thought it was
wrong they were scared by the subject
matter blah blah blah how'd you deal
with that can we talk about what book I
mean there's only so many books you've
written that have been nominated
we'll make it about you I want to know
how you deal with that how do you deal
how do you stay like confident because
this is something everybody can relate
to you believed in something you've put
the effort in the energy but then
external forces are like no no it's crap
and in that moment most people break so
I so one I've written a bunch of books
and I've gotten I come out of when I
come out of the school of Journal I'm a
journalist and I that was why I was
trained and editors
by the most merciless mean people you've
ever they they're super overworked they
have narcissistic lunatic bosses often
um who uh start magazines and they have
incredibly high standards and no time
and they are they say some of the
example ice once spent
three four months living in a swamp in
the Everglades reporting a story where
the only place to get food was a really
dark evil strip club in the middle of
the swamp that like it was the only
place you could get food and I was out
there for three months reporting this
story I wrote it I turned it in
um my editor called me up and uh the
editor is by the way a very good friend
of mine and still to this day called me
obviously Steven by the way it took me
three months to report the story and
five months or six months to write it so
I'm nine months in and
um and I'm desperate for the money by
the way at this point I'm really poor
and I need to get paid this story is
going on editor calls me up and he's
like Steven there's just one thing I
don't understand
and I'm thinking oh my God I'm so damn
good like one thing cool what do you got
man hit me she's like yeah man
every [ __ ] word you wrote
and
no [ __ ] no kidding and uh like start
over and so what I've learned all along
is the following
it's a general if you think the person
you're talking to
has an opinion that is at all of Merit
if you think they're you know
and I think most people's General are
fairly smart especially willing to give
them the benefit of the doubt on a lot
of this stuff so what I always say is
usually when somebody tells you
something is shitty the thing they're
telling you is shitty like what they're
pointing at they're probably wrong about
but the fact that it is creating this
something's wrong and it's making them
you trust that shitty feeling you don't
trust why they think it's shitty is what
I've learned so
um when the editor came to me and said
re-read it she wasn't wrong we were it
was a very hard book besides the fact
that we were butting heads and we had
just different ideas about where it
should go and how it should go it was
trying to do a lot of things I was
trying to write
um I always try to write above my head
but this one was I was writing farther
above my head meaning the fat density in
a normal book of mine is one to two
facts per sentence or paragraph This was
like sometimes three to four facts a
sentence that's a harder thing to do
right and not lose your readers not bore
people so it's technically challenging
and we had not taken it to the level of
it was all there but it wasn't fun yet
and that's actually like often the final
thing you have to do you have to get it
all there in the right order and it
still doesn't sing and then you do one
final massive polish that is usually you
think you've got a 10 polish and you've
got like a 40 polish and it's Herculean
and impossible and you you know it's
awful but that's what it needs and when
you do it you're like oh crap this is
right like this is right and um we got
it right I mean it it worked and
um the editor has yet to Apologize by
the way I like I was we were nominated
for a bullet so it's an international
bestseller you'd think I'd gonna be like
hey I was sorry about that maybe I was
wrong but
yeah people definitely have a hard time
with that
um do you have like uh I only take books
where I'm really confident in the
subject matter or
because you know it's so easy to be
swayed by external forces when you don't
have a strong sense of what something is
and writing is such a sort of naked art
form where you're really putting
yourself out there to get to get knocked
around and I'm just wondering you know
for if you think of a sort of beginning
writer listening to this what is how do
you create that stability of the idea to
weather the storms where you can go okay
cool there's a problem they're probably
wrong about how to fix it but I know
what this idea is I have the confidence
to to keep going and I'll further
contextualize this you've often said
that in the beginning you may only get
three to five hundred words a day but by
the end when you've really found the
book you're at like 1400 words a day
so obviously there's a phase where the
idea is quite delicate and like maybe
you haven't quite found it what advice
you have for people that you know
they're creating something artistically
and it is very possible that other
people will knock them off what they're
trying to do
so I mean the really long answer to that
question is found in flow for writers
which is a the whole right the class I
built about this so there's no short
answer but I'll give you some stuff that
we talk about in the argument possible
that applies to sort of creativity in
general definitely book writing
[Music]
um
that's some high percentage probably
over 50 of writer's block of any kind of
creative block is you don't know your
starts and your endings earlier I said
we are goal directed machines
I'm not like that's not a figure of
speech the brain has a built-in pattern
recognition system it links ideas
together automatically if you give it a
place to start and you know where you're
going if you can pay attention you will
get like it will find all the steps in
between goal setting is both about
driving motivation and filtering reality
our goals filter our reality when you
don't have goal set property you will
not notice the op the opportunities
won't like you literally won't see them
for neurobiological reasons we can go
into
um but it works the same with creativity
right you've got to know where you're
going think about like
the simple example the one that
everybody can kind of get is we've all
ridden a bike when you ride a bike you
don't really
steer for where you are you look 30 feet
ahead right mountain bikers are taught
to look 30 feet down the trailer when
your mom taught you how to ride a bike
look in front of you don't look down at
your tires right because we get we're
literally as biological beings built to
go where we look right if you've ever
surfed and tried to Surf a tube you
cannot surf a tube everything is moving
way too fast you have to look yourself
through the tube you pull into that wave
you Peg your eyes to the end of a hole
and that's how you get there when you
walk a balanced beam or a slack line you
put your eyes on the end of the thing
and that's how you get there you can't
actually steer consciously we steer with
visually by where we go this is why
visualization as a performance technique
actually works same it's the same system
these are all parts of the same system
and
knowing your ending so my point on this
is I have an outline I um
I have a general belief that I am not
all that special meaning if I'm really
interested in something
a bunch of other people probably are too
that's just my general thesis is like if
I find this interesting
I'm not all that special a bunch of
other people are too so I if I can
accurately communicate what it is that I
find so damn fascinating and I'm willing
to give 10 years of my life to it I
think there's a whole bunch of other
people who go oh yeah that's cool I want
to I'll read about that you know what I
mean so that's the my modus operon I
trust my instincts and I've had the
advantage of
I've been having instincts like that in
public
for decades I would pitch editors five
ideas at a time they would say four
sucks do this one right and over and
over and over and over again so I've you
know I've gotten I trust I trust at this
point you know what I mean so and
instead when you move transition from
being a journalist to being a book
writer you just sort of have to go
okay I got I hope people like my words
because like I'm trying to turn words
into money that's the sort of the job
you know what I mean like we can make it
all fancy and call it art and all but
like at a really basic level I'm turning
words into money and that only works if
I is if I write compelling interesting
words what is up my friend Tom bilyu
here and I have a big question to ask
you how would you rate your level of
personal discipline on a scale of one to
ten if your answer is anything less than
a ten I've got something cool for you
and let me tell you right now discipline
by its very nature means compelling
yourself to do difficult things that are
stressful boring which is what kills
most people or possibly scary or even
painful now here is the thing achieving
huge goals and stretching to reach your
potential requires you to do those
challenging stressful things and to
stick with them even when it gets boring
and it will get boring building your
levels of personal discipline is not
easy but let me tell you it pays off in
fact I will tell you you're never going
to achieve anything meaningful unless
you develop discipline right just
released a class from Impact Theory
university called how to build Ironclad
discipline that teaches you the process
of building yourself up in this area so
that you can push yourself to do the
hard things that greatness is going to
require of you right click the link on
the screen register for this class right
now and let's get to work I will see you
inside this Workshop from Impact Theory
University until then my friends be
legendary peace out
and at a certain point you have to just
trust it
there's something that you in there
about the notion of turning words into
money that reminded me of what we were
talking about right before we started
rolling which is this idea that your
early 20s is this utterly fascinating
period in your life and I think what I'm
queuing off of is is sort of how you end
up in that position where you're turning
words into money
um and you were talking about antimatter
a sort of Visual Arts Collective that
you were a part of or started in your
early 20s and living in like a super
dicey area in San Francisco
what is it about those sort of early
formative years
um I I think they're incredibly
important to the artist somebody that
will will become I don't know maybe you
don't think that or maybe you do but do
you think anything is special about that
period and if so what is it
uh I don't know if anything is more
like there's something special about
that period there's really something
special about your 30s and your 40s I
mean like there's adult development sort
of follows up right a a set set of
patterns but I do think you're right in
that
um
I was around a lot of people who
um
you had to be a little bit of a dreamer
I was around like artists and
entrepreneurs essentially and both are
you know people are sort of chasting the
impossible a little bit and by the way
action sport athletes who suddenly
decided they were going to try to get
paid for Action Sports like nobody in
the history of the world had ever gotten
paid as an action sport athlete right
they didn't have sponsors we weren't
even like full-fledged members of
society right skateboarding was a crime
and like you know what I mean like
people forget how punk rock that stuff
really was but it was it was not really
you know surf bomb ski bombs these were
not you know it changed after the X
Games and the grabby games and people
started to get sponsors but I was part
of the generation that sort of solved
that puzzle and figured that out so you
all the people around me were sort of
like betting on themselves against
really impossible odds and often in the
face of culture and Society to get back
to the nietzsa idea we started with
right
um
that's what really I think that's one of
the things that shaped me is you know as
I said my level of risk tolerance but my
level of like what's possible in this
life I always say that like
I was living in and around [ __ ] Valley
in the early 90s I was 22 23 like after
anti-matter right and coming out of that
period when I was living at the largest
performance in video
house and people were getting famous
like you know people getting shows at
Major
um
Galleries and then made and museums and
things like that so like I was watching
people really succeed
um but even with the access support
athletes like you have to understand
that it's like you go out drinking with
your friends on you know it's Friday
night you go drinking with your friends
everybody gets hammered everybody does
the same stupid [ __ ] we all go home and
you wake up in the morning and those
same friends do something that's never
been done before in the history of
humanity and for all recorded history we
believed was impossible that's a very
weird thing right Peter diamanus was one
of my close friends he wanted to unlock
the space Frontier and it seemed really
possible the first guy who invented the
flying uh it was actually a flying
motorcycle desert monar
he was a friend I was the first guy who
ever saw the blueprints he like barged
in my apartment in La one time and like
spread them out he's like look I've
invented a flying motorcycle and you're
like
you're talking you could you've been it
turns out yeah actually so this was that
kind of world and it was it was very
hard to figure out where like what's
possible where are the limits like we're
not supposed to be we're supposed to be
punk rockers we're supposed to be dead
before we're 30. like that was the crowd
we're not supposed to be redefining the
limits of human possibility and sort of
this was also the 90s so you got to
remember that like the weird punk
rockers took over music took over
magazines like all of a sudden like this
really weird group of Outsiders
um we weren't charged right like Nirvana
released an album a couple other things
happened and you know suddenly you could
self-publish you couldn't self-publish
but the tools of publishing were no
longer million dollar tools they were
things that people could afford and
suddenly you could challenge big major
magazines you didn't have to right and I
was part of all of that so the
possibility space
um was really open so the 20s were
amazing that way it was very hard though
is like everybody else the 30s are when
reality set it sets in always across the
board so like I think one of the big
differences between me and almost
everybody else I knew is
um I just never gave up on that idea
like I think everybody a lot of people I
knew I watched them making choices
and I was like well that's it's cool
that you bought that great house but now
you've got a mortgage and with a
mortgage you're locked into certain
decisions or now you're you're married
and have a baby and now you're locked
into certain decisions and that may be
cool but it is also limiting you know
big performance stuff and I mean you
know yeah this is getting into why I
think the the 20s or the early 20s
especially is such a magical period you
talk in the book really profoundly about
creativity and the things that sort of
lead to creativity and one of the things
you talk about is like the ability to do
pattern recognition from sort of oblique
angles but that if you want to recognize
those patterns you must encounter a lot
of patterns so in your early 20s being
poor is okay first of all people don't
have a lot of the responsibilities
they're not tied down by kids they're
not tied down by a mortgage and they
don't have all the preconceived notions
a lot of the things that you think are
impossible or things that you learn turn
over time that are impossible because
you watch somebody else fall you get
hurt you break a bone the world tells
you you know that that's not going to
work and in your early 20s you're sort
of still in that phase where you haven't
given up like you're talking about you
don't have the huge responsibilities you
haven't broken all the bones yet and so
people will in that sort of drinking in
the world
um to begin to have the patterns that
they will recognize later that they'll
monetize right like looking back at
people in their early 20s they just seem
like a chaotic mess like it is I do not
romanticize it right they look like a
[ __ ] mess but when I was in it I
remember thinking that I was as old as I
was ever going to be that I had
everything figured out the world just
seemed incredibly open oh God somebody
there's a quote please tell me you know
who said this it's something like when
you're young the world is literally
infinite you could become anything but
then at some point like it starts
narrowing down until you are a very
specific person well so
you know the quote we you started with
the habit of a fury the James quote in
the book I say look there's a modern
version written by the screenwriter
Charlie Kaufman that opens Confessions
of a dangerous mind
um the movie that George Clooney made
the Chuck Berry story which to me
is one of the more devastating
heartbreaking quotes in the world which
is when you're young your potential is
infinite you could be anything really
you could be Einstein it might be
DiMaggio and then you get to an age and
what you might be gives way to what you
have been you weren't Einstein you
weren't anything that's a bad moment
now some people hear that and they're
like screw you Stephen man I'm just
trying to be right I'm just trying to
get through Monday
um I don't need to become anything I and
okay
that's like sure and in that case go
read art impossible to make Monday
easier for you you know what I mean but
like I don't believe you honestly like
most people came to do something and if
they knew there was a blueprint and they
knew like you know hey wait this is
really within the realm of possibility
for me they'd go for it and that's what
I think is true well we're speaking of
devastating quotes tied to this idea of
the world being more infinite when
you're young there is a quote that
haunts me I think about it not every day
but damn it it's close genius is a young
man's game
and I hate that quote because as a late
bloomer I I just don't want it to be
true right I want to yeah I think I
think that's totally correct that it's
crap and
um I can by the way so there's a great
book that'll like one book that'll solve
your problem go read uh the wisdom
Paradox by a neuroscientist Named
alcanon Goldberg and funny greatest name
ever okay alcanon elkinon Goldberg he's
Israeli but Dow teaches NYU but this is
a little before your time I think but
like interesting so the book's about
what is wisdom but he set out to solve
this really weird puzzle Reagan when
Reagan was President his second term but
when after the president he was very
clear you know I had Alzheimer's right
and so he was
for at least two if not three years was
governing the most powerful Nation on
Earth
with Alzheimer's and so elkanon asked
himself how is this even possible like
sure people were helping you know what I
mean but like he was still in charge and
he wanted to know how is this from a
biological how is this possible um so he
wrote a book about where what's the
neurobiology of wisdom and it is and
where it comes from and I don't like
Geniuses that they stop when they say
Jesus you got to give us the punchline
of of the wisdom Paradox so where does
it come from where pattern recognition
interesting you you I mean you it's if
if you can lay in the brain is it works
by associations right it makes it so so
if you can fill it with enough Rich
connections and associations and
habituate them his point with Reagan is
the guy had habituated so many
high-level programs that he could
execute automatically that literally
like he could like oh it's Statesman
mode time cool and clicking it's just
automatic and you've seen this you've
been around
it's fairly common with certain breed of
thought leaders where they've just
they've been in front of the microphone
too long and they like you ask them a
question they just slap into like I'm
Gonna Give You Robo answer right now
so you've seen that
um Reagan just had more loops and higher
level Loops than a lot of people because
of you know he and his level of
experience that but that was alkanon's
point but this is how we all learn and
that doesn't change right genius is
cumulative and they always like when you
actually look at um some of the really
good books on creative genius and where
it comes from and what do we know and
sort of this is tangential to that idea
I talked about Long Haul creativity so
there's a lot of this work that's been
done they always point out Geniuses have
a couple things in common one is they
produce an enormous amount of [ __ ] right
like just stuff you just produce a lot
and seventy percent of it is crap but
thirty percent is freaking genius and
you know right that's a commonality
throughout history shows up everywhere
um so while quality is there there's
also a quantity to it and as you know
quantity increases over time what they
were talking about though was the
calcification of imagination that does
occur as you get older and that's that's
real for a lot of neurobiological ways
but it's also completely defeatable like
you don't have to get stuck that way in
fact the art of impossible like the
stuff on creativity and long-haul
creativity is essentially a formula for
hey here's how you keep developing your
creative problem solving system don't
calcify but you know I don't break that
down for me because one that term is
magical the calcification of imagination
is very evocative how do we avoid that
well I mean you know easy way
hire a lot of people across a bunch of
different ages or work with people from
a bunch of different ages and a bunch of
different cultures why would that work
because what happens as so as we get
older we gain more and more and more
expertise on sort of how we like to live
how who we are how we like to live and
what we know in the world and
we take in less new information because
we think we have all the right ideas and
that's fine there's some great expertise
there but you can that's not how
imagination requires novelty creativity
is a recombinatory process we can go
deeper but at a simple level your brain
notices something new it finds something
old it connects the dots and it bursts
something completely novel that's how
creativity works and that middle step is
pattern recognition right but you've got
to feed it something novel so if you're
not taking in the novel you've got a
problem and if
you're getting older and all you the
people around you are your age and look
like you you have no access to novelty
also even made worse by the fact that
people stopped reading novels novels are
novel like they literally give you
somebody else's perspective they're
designed to shift their head sideways
and say hey man your view of reality
might be totally accurate but somebody
else is right here they got another view
it's totally different and they're they
think theirs is totally accurate and I
don't know who's right but just so you
know right and I like I I read novels
for that reason and I also like to have
people who are a lot older than me you
know working in my company and people
who are a lot younger than me working in
my company
um I I like to surround myself
with smart people who disagree with me
and you know and I like you know I
always say as a journalist you're taught
that the best room to be in is the room
where you're the dumbest
how do you navigate that though so this
is the um the Abraham Lincoln idea of a
Team of Rivals which I'm obsessed with
I'm the same as you I want people to
disagree but it is not easy to
orchestrate that disagreement without it
turning into dysfunction so do you have
any insights there yeah I I so
um
let us say that the art of impossible is
a book that is very much focused on
individual Peak Performance there is
some team stuff in there you're getting
into leadership and team questions and I
have knowledge I don't necessarily know
if I have expertise and I don't mind you
popping off I'm just like in terms this
is just stuff I man I don't know I mean
like I don't like I'll give you a really
freaking simple example from the past
couple of days my wife who I loved to
death it is amazing and she like she's
doing her job when she says this she's
like look man you think you're really
funny and you are but you've got to be
careful because you pay people and the
people you're editing with like are they
laughing because it's funnier are they
laughing because you're paying them and
until you know
be careful with this stuff because blah
blah she's not wrong about that stuff
and I was always talking to literally
like a bunch of people I'm working on a
big project with on my staff about this
very thing we're creating content
together and I was like look you guys
are laughing and I can't tell if you're
laughing because this is funny or you're
laughing because you think you have to
be laughing or you're laughing because
you can't believe that Stephen would
consider doing this he must be out of
his [ __ ] mind right like it's one of
the three and I was literally talking
about the stuff and I was like I don't
know which one to trust and I've had my
wife wasn't saying anything I wasn't
already feeling you know what I mean she
was like Hey man the reason this is
irking you is because of and I mean I
like the fact I think I work with some
of the greatest people in the world who
are my friends but it doesn't change the
fact that like 60 people work for me and
you know I'm excited that they get to do
what they've always wanted to do for a
living and I can sort of make help make
that happen but it's a fair point and I
don't know how that's a difficult
challenge for me to solve I'm not sure
sure what the answer is to that
particular one is my is my answer that's
as honest I could I can be because I
really don't like this is live and learn
when it comes to like Team Management
stuff right and Leadership stuff for me
yeah it's I mean I think it's live and
learn for everybody that's in the middle
of it but whenever you own a company
it's like well you have to do something
you've got to be making decisions every
day and getting people to talk to power
is brutally difficult it's one of the
things that I actively hire for I'm
looking for people yeah I'm just in the
interview process I mean I like to hire
ex-journalists for a lot of different
reasons I personally believe that if you
can write a 10 000 word article you have
most of the skills you need to Succeed
in Business and almost everything else I
can teach you depending on where where I
need to push you because there's so much
that sort of comes baked into that
particular one but journalists have some
of that stuff built in as well like they
are I was paid a I was an old punk
rocker right B I was a magician and like
magicians I was around the best in the
world like literally like you'd hang out
a magic store and the biggest names in
the world the guys who were on Broadway
or in Vegas were making millions of
dollars at it would come in and stand
around and do card tricks with a 13 year
old 12 year old kids like that how long
did you stay practicing I started
working when I was 10 and I sort of
started to phase out around the time I
was 17 because I started to realize that
honestly to be great at Magic and I
don't like to do anything that I can't
be great at you have to like lying to
people ultimately you have to like that
you have to like conning people or
fooling people like that has to be part
of the thrill for you getting over in
that way and that's actually not a
thrill for me like it wasn't natural and
it was too I I was you know I didn't it
turns out that I like I liked part of
the equation it was the same reason like
I played around kind of a lot of theater
I did a lot more theater than most
people ever do but again it wasn't like
it wasn't the right fit for me I ended
up you know in a performance in art
video gallery because I thought maybe
performance art would work and it didn't
like it turns out like when I wrote my
first book I got up on stage and started
talking about like the ideas that I was
actually interested in writing about
that was the right fit and I was like oh
this one fits I can do this thing those
other things work quite right even
though the urges were pointing in the
same direction the fit was wrong what
was some of the like craziest
performance art that either you did or
you've seen done
though
hard to say I mean I so like this is the
same crowd that created burning I mean
the survival research Labs shows like
the one that was under the Bay Bridge
where they like afterwards I don't even
think they're allowed to perform in
California anymore like
um you got to remember that like long
before there were Robo Wars or burning
man or any of that stuff there was this
group of crazy artists led by a guy
named Mark Pauline
um who had nine fingers because he blew
one off in a crazy accident doing
building they would build like Sonic
Death cannons out of jet engines that
fired Sonic Air and they would build
90-foot flame throwers and 100 foot
robots that would do battle underneath
the Bay Bridge there was literally three
places in the world they could perform
and you had to sign waivers and take
your life in your hands to attack you
can look up survival research Labs
online but like they were used these
were all lot of the people who ended up
building Burning Man all the art cars
and all that stuff same this is the DNA
this is where it came from and they were
all sort of like mad rocket science
Geniuses
um Coming sort of out of Southern
California Orange County rocket science
Aerospace world and like started to use
that knowledge to do things like build
surfboards and then what do they do in
their free time they build death robots
that you know what I mean that was sort
of the culture but like if you look
early action sports was a lot of
crossover out of the Aerospace Community
where do you think those materials came
from for surfboards and skis and like so
there was this weird you know and this
was all San Francisco so there was a lot
of proto-silicon Valley early V this was
the world of early VR with Jared Lanier
and though the you know that was that
that kind of world and so survival
research Labs I I saw scosy fetish which
was mini survival research labs they
played in our living room or at
antimatter which was like having their
reporting man no they were uh they were
a
they were a
noise band that played things like
chainsaws and oil drums and
destroying a car with a sledgehammer
um and maybe a little guitar
etc etc uh while they had death robots
fighting it out on stage with them
um Gwar came out of this whole same
scene if you've ever heard of the metal
band of War but this noise band is well
outside of anything that I have
experience with I don't believe that
because there's all there's actually
Crossover with like early anime like the
some of the stuff you're into
it's going to be coming at it out of
Japan crossed into some of the early
noise industrial I mean this was Nine
Inch Nails came out of this sit like
later on in this progression Marilyn
Manson is a couple like same lineage
just a bunch of steps down
those guys I dig but there's definitely
Melodies and things I'm far more drawn
to the ones that sound like songs and
not the ones that sound like a piece of
equipment breaking right yeah by the way
I have to tell you this spectacle was
amazing the spectacle was astounding
there were people I knew who who like
would listen to it as if it was like
music or something like I was like this
dude is like torturing live animals is
what it sounds like and that's not like
I don't want to listen to that I want to
watch it because the spectacle is
amazing and I can't like there was
really amazing creativity in it like it
sounds like but it was really well done
and well orchestrated and thought out
and interesting
um at the time also like when you're 18
19 20 21 22
um and you haven't seen as much
spectacle and in the world before like
you gotta also remember I didn't grow up
in a world with the internet I didn't
grow up in the world with I was grew up
in Cleveland before there was cable TV
there you know what I mean we had three
channels New York culture sort of
arrived in Cleveland like eight months
late or eight months before it was like
bands would show up show up to play
where I grew up in Cleveland
um I saw everybody in like these you two
would come to play a giant you know
American tour and they would come to
Cleveland first because like who cares
it's freaking Cleveland so we'll warm up
there we'll screw it all up and then
we'll go to the rest of the world so we
either got culture like a couple years
later or we got bad culture like early
because people wanted to test the market
that's hilarious when I think about some
of the sort of ultra creative out of the
box thinkers that you're describing here
people that make big battle robots
before it's a thing people that are
turning chainsaws and flamethrowers into
music ish
um it reminds me of the part in the book
where you actually say actually maybe
what you need is to think Inside the Box
you put forward some counter-intuitive
ideas around you know what creativity is
and how to hack creativity
um
yeah we you we covered that so I earlier
I said
know your starts and your endings right
it's a form of this there is the reason
the blank page is so awful is we're not
we're actually built to be creative sort
of inside the box it's much better we're
much Freer for a lot of ways um the
brain free or with restrictions with
three or with restrictions it's easier
to be CR but that takes a little while
because it gives us the the light at the
end of the surf tube to look at and
point our eyes at is that like how does
that generate Freedom it limits the
possibility space the possibility space
is too big when you can go anywhere it
you can literally go anywhere and what
are my choices how do I pick right when
I have the I used to
you like it's like when I choose to
start a chapter I used to get really I
care more about the first line than I
care about anything because it's where
like it's my start and I gotta get it
right but I that used to [ __ ] me and
then I realized that like no just start
like I'll give you a simple example
I write in layers it's my first pass is
literally
who what where why what who what where I
went my second pass or all the sort of
like plot points that have to come so
who well where does he live and what
colors his hair and what is it right
like though that kind of [ __ ] and the
art gets added on last and I and I do
we're talking about when writing fiction
or not writing anything anything you've
ever read of mine for the past 20 years
or so I write in layers and I do that
because the limit of the who what where
why
um is it once it's in place then the art
can be free if I try to start with the
style and I want to start with the art
and the flare and the whatever
I am making it I'm locking myself into a
position that I don't know if I want to
be locked into like if I want to
communicate getting what I need to
communicate out first before I layer the
art in works better for me because the
art shackles it completely down to one
way I don't know if I'm making any sense
there but it is there's a tremendous
amount of uh
research that basically says you know if
I say Tom create a funny sketch for me
go you got two minutes you're gonna get
stuck but if I'm like Tom okay I need I
need a funny sketch I need uh Superman
meets Wonder Woman in a bayou Cantina
and what's the talk right suddenly you
can actually and your brain is already
like I can just look at you and I know
you've got like one or two Superman meet
lava on a Cantina ideas floating around
your head I gave you some pre-existing
limits you know how to put these things
together in a way that's kind of funny
it's automatic-ish your brain is a
pattern recognition system and we'll do
that but if you say if I just say dude
just be funny be funny it's gonna be
about superheroes you're like what I
don't learn so many yeah that's right
when people invite me to give talks I'm
always you know give me the theme of the
event uh how people ask me questions
like give me some sort of prompt and you
actually quote a jazz musician I forget
who in the book as saying you can't
improv off of nothing
yeah you can't improv off of nothing and
it's easy I think he's totally right
yeah that that makes a lot of sense to
me
it's the same thing as it's the same
thing with like
so I like think about foot football is a
really great example because for for
play football plays last about seven to
eight seconds nine seconds
um and for the first six seconds or so
you have a job to do right Bill
Belichick do your job well that job
actually is going to last about six
seconds and then if the play is still
going it's because either somebody doing
something good or the play has broken
down and you're freestyling and you've
got four seconds to be a creative genius
and that's what makes football so
challenging is because you have to color
completely with little in the lines with
the first half of the play and then it'd
be an improvisational genius for the
second half of the play and that's a
really like that's a really strange
thing for people to learn how to do it's
really hard and it's also it's a very
it's a very flowy game but only if you
get enough repetitions and being that
contact sport and super violent it's
hard right like it's it's got a bunch of
really interesting limiting factors that
make football a very interesting sort of
like I like watching it for like the
creative puzzle solving of like they're
trying to create Lim and what when a
coach has created plays he's creating
limits he's saying look this is the play
this what we're going to try to do but
if it doesn't work I'm setting it up
these are the bounds and You Freestyle
inside of it because we've freestyle
outside of it the quarterback is gonna
have no freaking clue where to throw the
ball but I'm giving you limits freestyle
inside these limits and we can find you
kind of thing that's an example that
everybody can kind of wrap their head or
our Ultima males who like foot or all
the people who like football
um sorry I grew up in a world where
women didn't really like football now
women like football and I love that that
makes me a lot happier yeah no joke uh I
want to talk about creativity how we
expand it drugs and how it plays in in
the book you give an example which of
course I thought the punchline would be
that drinking messes up your creativity
but you actually give an example of
there is like a sweet spot right below
or at least this is what they tested
right below the legal limit and they
were able to solve word puzzles faster
and with more answers than people who uh
were sober which I was very surprised
and how far does that extrapolate
so
uh with
which question you want first do I you
want booze or creativity first uh well
in the book you were talking about booze
as it ties to creativity what I'm trying
to figure out is how do I have two
questions do you want me to answer the
booze question first to the creativity
question first go go with creativity
okay so um
one thing that's worth knowing
the part of the brain that finds farther
flung associations between ideas appears
to be the dorsal anterior cingulate
cortex don't worry about that's just a
fancy name for like this is where it is
right in the brain that's what it and
what it looks like but I'll ignore that
what we know is that when the more
anxiety in your system the more logical
and linear your brain wants to be
and the extreme example that everybody
is going to go oh wow I didn't think of
it that way is fight or flight when
you're facing a really big challenge
your brain says no no no you should not
have lots of options you'll die we're
going to give you two you can fight or
you can run right those are your choices
you can actually freeze there's three
but like fight Freeze and flee is less
sexy than fight or flight so people
leave it out but like literally that's
that's not just at the extreme that's
every step along the way so the more
fear the more anxiety
the less creativity your brain wants
logical linear safe Solutions the less
anxiety the and and and booze uh low
they didn't get people drunk they took
them right up I think it was right below
the legal limit is where they got them a
little a little tipsy
um
is um first of all you get dopamine from
booze so that's a feel-good drug so
you're in a better mood we know like
being in a good mood is one of the best
hacks for creativity right for sure and
this mechanism when you're in a good
mood you feel safe and secure so your
brain will find farther flung
connections between ideas simpler way to
do it by the way is look at a wide Vista
and try to look at the corners of your
eyes your brain goes uh would so when
you're anxious you focus really intently
so when you're looking at your
peripheral vision your brain goes oh
well Focus isn't really intense you must
be calm and it actually activates your
parasympathetic nervous system it calms
you down so to very if you're looking to
calm yourself down really fast looking
the audio peripheral vision seems to be
one way to do it um this is not my work
this is Dr Andrew huberman's work at
Stanford we do some work with him this
is this is stuff incredible dude I love
that guy yeah Andrew's great
um so uh
same thing so one booze puts you in a in
a better mood and two so dopamine
neural chemicals
are the brain communicates in two ways
right electrical signals chemical
signals and um
neurochemicals are multi-tools right
they do lots of different jobs in the
brain dopamine amplifies Focus that's
one of the things it does it also
rewards any behavior that like has a
survival value but another thing it does
is it Tunes signal the noise ratios
which is a fancy way of saying it
amplifies pattern recognition so when we
have dopamine in our system we find more
connections between stuff so I'll give
you a simple example one of the things
that happens we get dopamine from
insights if you ever do a Sudoku or a
crossword puzzle get an answer right
that little rush of pleasure you get
that's dopamine you ever notice that you
get like three or four answers right in
a row that's because dopamine you get a
rush of dopamine from getting one answer
together pattern recognition and then
because dopamine amplifies pattern
recognition you get a bunch of answers
in a row this is why creative ideas
spiral well one idea leads to the next
leaves the next leads the next right
this is the mechanism underneath all of
that so um and by the way turn up the
double mean too much you have
schizophrenia you start finding patterns
where there aren't connections you get
confused that's interesting right so
this is Peter Bruegger's work and
switching the beautiful study crazy
study you'll love this took a bunch of
uh
people who are you called them True
Believers these are people who believe
in conspiracy theories and gods ghosts
demons a lot of spiritual right that
group then he took a bunch of Skeptics
and then he took a bunch of faces
scrambled some and kept others as real
faces so you could get like your nose my
eyes and her ears pushed together it
looks like a real face but it's not or
you get a real face and they started
showing them these clusters of people
the people who
were the conspiracy Buffs always saw
more real faces
where the Skeptics said oh no that's
fake that's real they redid the
experiment and they gave people dopamine
they gave the Skeptics l-dopa which is a
Parkinson's drug it increases the amount
of domain and some of the Skeptics were
saying oh no that's a real face that's a
real face it's a real face yeah so
dopamine this is why also like all that
when they give l-dopa to people you can
suddenly spontaneously develop gambling
addictions yes I've heard about that
that's a love of patterns that's about
patterns and reward whatever but you can
also
um this happens fairly frequently people
have like second third creative careers
like they get on El dope off of
Parkinson's and they have like this
creative flowering because right so it's
a high it's a sort of okay okay okay
hold on so why uh everybody's gonna tell
you to do psychedelics if you want to
increase your creativity I micro dose
psilocybin it did [ __ ] all for me it was
not interesting in the slightest
um why why don't people talk about
taking ildel but I'm literally gonna get
off this call and go find the supply of
aldoba I mean the thing first of all
there's you can get it naturally
um better but you know or I mean if you
uh smoke sativa or any uh any of the
marijuanas does uh nothing for me that's
nothing lies vicious lies the way that I
I'm not gonna say I'm not saying it like
I'm not saying um
you're not your experience is real I'm
not doubting your experience I mean this
is interesting because like I mean most
people I mean I'm not saying it's good
creativity you can use I hate like Tom
I'm not a fan of micro dosing and I'm
not I wrote stealing fire I I pointed
out that yes there's a long history of
people using psychedelics for creativity
at the flow research Collective we are
interested in psychological and
physiological interventions and not
technological or pharmacological and
people ask me why all the time and I'm
like look if I was dramatic I would say
well back when I was a journalist on
five separate occasions I was shot at
and in no time when somebody was
shooting at me was I like excuse me sir
would you please put that AK-47 down
while I put this EEG headset on and
train my brain waves in Alpha so I could
Dodge your bullets right that [ __ ]
doesn't happen or when the boss says hey
Tom get in here I need the presentation
you were going to do next week I need it
now and I need to do it uh for my boss
and her boss and his boss and the few
future the world depends on it you don't
have time for a substance or the much
more familiar example hey honey can I
talk to you for a minute
right like you don't get to say oh like
let me hold on let me get jiggy with all
this Tech and these substances and that
yeah right like that's not how reality
works I want tools that can work under
any circumstances that are reliable and
repeatable and I'm not
um to say nothing of the fact that like
psychic and I've done more psychedelics
than you know we talked about this last
time we were on the air I've got a long
I did a lot of psychedelics in my 20s
um and I'll still do them every now and
again for fun
um but I like I think drugs are fun I
think they can be fun and a good
vacation every now and again I don't
think they're worth a damn for insight
people a lot of people think you can get
creativity and insight and I'm not
saying other people can't I certainly
can't it's never worked that way I've
learned one or two things that may or
may not be true about the universe
and that's what I've learned and I've
you know I've taken you know more
psychedelics than than most people ever
go near
um I um and okay interesting you know
what I mean but like I went on a giant
Spears request thinking psychedelics
were gonna be the answer and like one I
ended up an atheist and two you know
what I mean like like I don't know what
to tell you but like that was my
experience was it directly the
experience of suicide or sorry not
suicide but psychedelics that made you
an atheist it wasn't no and I'm not I'm
really actually an agnostic um no it was
uh I don't um first of all I really
dislike psychedelic culture I really
like it what is it about the culture you
don't like so we talked about this in in
stealing fire a little bit this is true
with flow work this is one of the
dangers so at the flow research
Collective the only swag we have is a
t-shirt that says never trust the
dopamine
and um the reason is and a lot of these
drugs Amplified dopamine is that
psychedelics and these experiences where
your ego vanishes whether it's
selflessness there's a rebound effect
so the when your ego comes back on it
actually comes on bigger and more
ferocious and people come back from
psychedelics they have Visionary
experiences and they think they have
authority like some kind of Spiritual
Authority some kind of create like I
don't like I don't maybe you do but I
don't like I I've not I don't think so I
think you're experiencing well well
documented meaning like 10 000 years of
documentation
um ego inflation and a whole bunch of
other stuff
um you know we tell at the flow research
Collective we teach people like
literally if we put you into a flows if
you can do a flow State don't go
shopping
pattern recognition is all turned up
everything looks good right so uh and
but and by the way there's a lot of like
people in the self-help coaching world
who think it's perfectly fine to alter
people's Consciousness and then try to
upsell them stuff and I think it's
criminal because when you're in flow for
example risk taking is up and long-term
planning is down
right the flow is great for a lot of
stuff it's not great for long-term
planning have big dreams and flow verify
them in reality right like and this is
the same reason the Burning Man ticket
says don't make a life-changing decision
for six weeks until after the event
right now nearly six weeks after yeah I
think it's six weeks maybe it's four
weeks but like yeah I mean they flat out
warn you like this is no strangers this
is not like you know like this is this
is because people are having a
breakthrough because I would get while
you are high
but six weeks is a long time so people
are having sort of false epiphonies or
what they're having false epiphanies
they're having like they're falling in
love with somebody who is not their
significant other that they meet on the
Playa and they think you know that the
peak experience like you have to like if
you're having a experience that's
astounding but you got to sort of verify
and validate in the real world for a
while I think before you can really
trust it this is I teach my my staff
this all the time and I think this I
just happens in the world that makes me
crazy the order is supposed to be
Insight research
publication meaning like have other
smart people beat on your ideas then
communication right what we have right
now in psychedelic culture is insight
and communication and there's no
research and there's no I did the
research here's what I think I'm looking
at hey like here's my ideas smart people
beat on them for a while and let me hone
this and then let me stand on stage and
tell you it's truth instead like
people are going insight and then
they're jumping to whatever platform
they can and they're talking to you as
if it's truth that's what I mean by when
I say don't like psychedelic culture
that to me is nonsense like just because
you're having a crazy mystical
experience doesn't like doesn't mean you
don't have to still go out and validate
it as truth
um using the same we you know we have
truth filters we have there's a whole
bunch of stuff in art impossible here's
how you evaluate knowledge quickly or
you're gonna have to learn you're gonna
have to accelerate learning skills and
you're going to need truth filters
scientific method is a truth filter
investigative journalism the way I was
that those are truth filters uh Elon
musk's first principle thinking that
Peter and I talk about in in bold these
are all how do I evaluate information
quickly and things like that when when
Engineers want to know what are the
boundary conditions right what are the
limits what they're saying is everything
Beyond those limits is where the
nonsense or the breakthroughs are but
it's either or and you just gotta know
right I'm not saying don't learn the
weird ass yet but know that this is the
line and once you step over this line
it's an open question go explore for
sure but like there's a line and like
you know I was a reporter who
specialized in The Cutting Edge and I
that was the hardest thing to always
figure out like where's the line in this
field where I'm not exactly an expert
right I'd go into like genetics and you
have to know well this is established
truth and this is somebody's wild idea
and it may be right it may be wrong but
like if you're gonna publish it you've
got to know where the line is just so
you can describe it to most people like
hey this is what we know for sure this
stuff may or may not be true you can
make up your mind here's here's the way
to do that
um blah blah that I feel is responsible
and smart and I don't know then answer
your question at all or did I just go
off in some other no no you did for sure
and uh I think truth filters is a great
place to wrap up
Stephen as always man thank you so much
for spending the time with me the art of
impossible I really enjoyed it like I
said I there are precious few books that
so line up perfectly with what I have
experienced I forget who said it but
something along the lines of the if the
research doesn't validate what is
actually happening then there's a flaw
in the research so to see it line up
with things that I couldn't have put the
eloquent words to it that you have or
and I certainly didn't have the science
behind it but it's so lined up with what
life seems like to me
um it was very very eye-opening so thank
you as always for putting out another
amazing piece of work into the world
and why can people learn more get the
book follow you whatever the case may be
yeah all that uh so the book
um the art of impossible.com
uh is is a place stephencotler.com
um is another and we talked about the
passion recipe so passion recipe
oneword.com
that's for everybody listening um as
well but the art of impossible.com
um is uh it was where you find it Amazon
Barnes Noble support your Indies and Tom
uh once first of all it's an honor that
I've gotten to be on your show three
times thank you for the interest in in
the work that I do and and thank you for
the work that you do in the world
appreciate it man my pleasure guys
speaking of things that you will
appreciate if you haven't already be
sure to subscribe and until next time my
friends be legendary take care if you
want tips to destroy laziness check out
this episode with Dr Andrew huberman
then what you realize is your capacity
to tap into dopamine as a motivator not
just seeking dopamine rewards that is
infinite and I I can say with with great
certainty that this is