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in the beginning I was just I wouldn't
take no for an answer I think it was
very stubborn and I just viewed
everything like that like whatever I'm
spending 10 I could be getting every
year forever if I could earn enough then
I'll never have to worry about like
working a job I didn't like or having to
report to a boss I could have ten
dollars a year for the rest of my life
if I just invest this money in real
estate
Graham Steph and welcome to the show
thank you thank you for having me this
is uh quite the setup you have here yeah
I'm excited to have you so tell us what
can people do to make money in a
recession I've always been a proponent
of doubling down on whatever you're
doing work twice as hard save twice as
much really take advantage of any
opportunity that you have because I got
my career started 2008 like I got into
real estate right as it had like peaked
and had discresting and was starting to
go back down and I remember everyone
telling me Oh you're too late for that
the Market's going down now is a
terrible time you should go to college
um I just saw that as such a cool
opportunity because like I had no
reference point for what was good or
what was bad so anything for me was like
a success how old were you in 2008 18.
whoa you got into real estate 18. yeah
how did you have a capital
I had a few thousand dollars that I had
saved up working part-time throughout
high school and so I used some of that
money to do my real estate license and
the cost of that I mean the bar is set
so low because you I took my classes
online
they sent like some textbooks I took a
state test uh it was maybe a few hundred
dollars to register with the state of
California like to get your fingerprints
and whatnot I'm very low startup Capital
but then the difficulty becomes making
money uh so actually getting licensed
and jumping in pretty much anyone could
do it if you have a grand okay so the
big winners are the people that in 2008
they were like no no there's still a
deeper bottom coming correct what were
they looking at because one of so my
base assumption that we will see if I'm
right yeah this interview because you
know a lot more about this than I do but
my base assumption from an investing
standpoint is that if you want to make
money in a recession you want to be the
average person the average person is
going to want to look at things as being
on discount you buy things dollar cost
average way this is a great time because
things are down so if I'm looking at the
real estate industry what I want to
understand is
The Savvy investor what signals are they
looking for because I'm I'm a big
believer that the average person again
the average person doesn't know enough
to try to time the market but the story
I hear you telling about what happened
in 2008 was the guys that one understood
how to time the market that they
actually understood the difference I'm
even in hindsight thinking 2008 was the
moment so how in real time did they know
2008's not the moment despite all the
blood all I remember people living in
tents in Parks it was crazy man I'd
never seen anything like it in my life
so in that moment I would have wished
given all the sort of typical wisdom
that you hear I would have wished I
could have bought in at that time I had
not yet made my money so what were Savvy
people queuing off of to know to wait at
least from my own experience is that we
saw a lot of foreign buyers come in
around
2010 and I remember they would have
buses of people going through and there
would be like 30 people in a bus going
through these properties that were
millions of dollars to Beverly Hills and
they would look through and they they
have a notepad just like this and they'd
write down what they like what they
don't like and they would make offers on
every single house that they saw maybe
not yeah and but but they were coming in
bosses like they were flying in overseas
and just buying anything that they could
and I think there's a shift around that
time where people began to see wait a
second all these investors are buying a
property you 2010 was the year where you
started to see all those ads on TV there
was there was a surfer guy who who was
in his 40s who ran this huge uh
operation of running ads of Like We Buy
Ugly Houses and he was buying thousands
thousands of homes and I think there was
a sentiment that just changed where did
he win or did he get obliterated I
believe I I don't know I I mean I'm
guessing he made quite a lot of money I
mean he probably 10xed his money
um because he was buying properties and
then fixing them up I don't know if he
flipped them if he rented them but his
timing on that was fantastic and sorry
that was in 2008 or 2010 that was 2010.
okay so he was smart enough to wait so
the guys that if somebody had bought in
2008 and held until whatever magic day
now that we know with historical
hindsight whether that was 2020 2021
whatever
would they have won or lost they would
have won okay long term it doesn't
really make it like if you had bought a
property at the peak in 2006 in a lot of
areas I'm sure there's some areas that
are down but I would say the majority at
least from what I could see here in Los
Angeles you would be up substantially I
mean you would be probably double maybe
double and a half triple uh what that
purchase price was so over a long enough
period most areas will do well uh the
tricky part is in the short term
everyone checks their home on Zillow
like every month to see like oh I made
money this month or I you know I lost a
little bit darn uh in the long term as
long as you can make the payments the
trouble was that a lot of people in 2006
were buying properties that couldn't
make the payments and that's where
that's where the issue began now even if
you bought a property at let's just say
the you know the top of the market which
would have really been like January
2022. as long as they can make the
payments it doesn't really make a huge
difference because even if property
values go down and interest rates go up
your monthly payment would be about the
same still okay so I'm trying to get to
print principles that people can apply
to the moment now so as you look at this
moment now your initial advice was
double down on whatever you're doing but
let's assume that somebody's coming into
this and they they're not doing anything
they're they're just now of age where
they can actually start deploying
capital
what are the principles so it seems to
me like things are going down the stock
market's down this feels like a time
where you want dry powder you'd want to
be able to start buying I have a
principle Notch to try to time the
market out of ignorance to myself there
might be people more savvy than me but
when you look at the numbers that never
seems to pan out it's like less than
five percent of people can beat that I
agree even for two years so it's like
just seems like a sort of crazy thing
but if there are principles that we can
apply to say okay
the beginning of a recession is never
I'm just making it up to give you an
example of a principle the beginning of
a recession is never the time you want
to do it you want to do it 18 months
after the reset that I don't know what
it is but yeah I don't believe in any of
that unlike you generally you cannot
time the market it's going to be pretty
much impossible that's why I think the
things that you can control are uh the
effort that you put into your job
staying employed keeping an income as
far as real estate's concerned the
things you do have control do you shop
around your mortgage interest rate do
you make offers on houses are you
aggressive with your offers do you
understand the market and can you find a
home that you feel is undervalued or a
home that needs some work because any
one of those things you have direct
control over a lot of these things in
hindsight yes it's easy to say that you
know the Market's lower in 2010 as it
was in 2008 and in nice it's very easy
to say well now all these investors are
buying in and probably they're right uh
but I think for the average person for
what they can control those few things
will set them up way better than most
okay so do you have time Timeless
principles that you think apply In This
Moment like let me ask blatantly is this
a better opportunity than most to make
money given that I mean I know that
they're saying that this isn't
technically yet a recession I would
disagree but
um is this a better time than most or it
literally doesn't matter way better than
last year but a lot of it's in hindsight
I mean anything could change so quickly
so I think forecasting anything is is
very difficult for me personally I see
and this is again just what I'm doing I
probably see an opportunity in
commercial real estate prices are
already down about 15 from their High I
think if cap rates are right now four
and a half five percent so property is
yielding let's just say five percent but
you could get a treasury right now for
the next two years at 4.6 percent
the risk premium is not there for
commercial so I feel like prices should
have to come down I could be totally
wrong here but I think prices and
Commercial have to come down to reflect
the yield that would entice investors to
buy into it and I think a lot of sellers
haven't caught up yet I think real
estate generally lags quite a long time
because you have sellers who've locked
in interest rates who don't need to sell
so what you see turning over are the
properties that have to sell were the
ones that really want to sell and move
and so that only reflects a small part
of the market so it takes time to catch
up so for me personally I think probably
in the next year there's probably
opportunity in commercial but it's so
location dependent too it's like every
location is going to be different La
went down more than you know parts of
the Midwest terms of uh sales so it's
every location is so different it's like
saying you know the whole stock market's
going to go down when maybe this stock
goes up and this one goes down and this
one stays the same how much do you use
the bond market like can we abstract
that I get how you're using in real
estate but can we abstract that and
apply it against all asset classes or do
you not think about the bond market like
that I think I think some of it I think
when it comes to the stock market I have
no idea so I'm just buying index funds
and I've just continued buying the exact
same amount for the last few years
because that's not your area of
expertise I just think when it comes to
timing the market it's pretty much
impossible and I know myself enough to
know that I can't do that
um so I do look at bond yields to the
extent of well if I'm getting
4.4 percent of my money right now
what's the risk premium that you'd have
to make in the stock market to bridge
that Gap to take the risk
um
I see for myself probably just taking a
diversified approach I mean I have like
30 cash right now but a lot of that's to
buy commercial and that's something I
want to wait on until I find the right
opportunity but until then I just low
ball properties and to see what sticks
I'm going to make an aggressive
statement tell me if you agree or
disagree day trading is financial
suicide correct yeah so it's interesting
when I I really want there to be like
this really sexy answer and that I'm
just not smart enough and if I could
just figure this out then I'd really
blow it up
um but I get the feeling that the right
answer for stock market investing in
fact now I'm going to abstract it the
right answer for investing is as follows
and gram stuff and it's going to slap me
around if I get this wrong
you want to have a diversified portfolio
you want to blindly invest in a set of
index funds that are very well known and
highly respected and when I say blindly
I I mean as blindly as possible the S P
500 would be a good example you're going
to put whatever amount you're going to
put into the stock market is going to be
wildly disproportionately into index
funds like that you're going to dollar
cost average in because who knows and
you can't time the market
and you're going to only invest the
amount of money that you can leave in
for 20 years that's pretty good like a
basic thing yeah
um you might take some portion of your
portfolio or the money that you're going
to invest because God in my early 20s I
wouldn't even know what you meant by
portfolio uh the amount of money that
you're going to invest and do something
that's higher risk if you want you can
day trade it but just if you're day
trading it understand that that is
literally going to the roulette wheel
and throwing it down you did a really
fun experiment where you literally had a
monkey yeah that did well yeah which is
awesome in fact walk people through so
the reason that I've come to that sort
of basic breakdown we can get into the
so every time you talk real estate
people listening need to understand you
have expertise in real estate that's
really important because that becomes
the other part yes that ties back to
your initial thing that if you're an
expert in something double down on it
this is why I pour so much money into my
business this is what I know how to do
so for somebody else investing the kind
of money that I'm investing into a
business would be suicidal but for me
given how long I've been doing it while
it's still very high risk and I'm not
foolish enough to think that it's not
it's a far more controlled risk for me
in an area of expertise but anyway I've
talked to a lot of people about just
sort of what what is that average saying
that the average person should do it's
about being in the market for a long
time dollar cost averaging and holding
doing the thing that's really kind of
impossible sounds easy but isn't Buy Low
sell High we can get into why people
can't do that psychologically it it is
almost impossible for the average person
to actually do that which is why very
few people make money but walk me
through the reality of why you could
beat
I forget you listed all the different
people that you beat with the monkey
picking the stocks oh yeah but why did
that work what's your hypothesis well
initially going into it there was a
study that smaller stocks performed
slightly better because they have more
growth potential and so at that time
everything was going up and I saw my
risk investing in because this was
really just I took the S P 500
and then I correlated a random number
generator to correspond to each ranking
out of 500 stocks on that list I knew
just right off the bat S P 500 companies
are probably going to do well picking 10
of them gives me a big enough sample
size where I know I'm not going to lose
all my money I mean it's possible but
like highly unlikely and then I think it
was smaller stocks generated on average
and I could be wrong here I'm just off
the top of my head I think it was like
11 and a half percent
while larger stocks returned an average
of like eight percent eight and a half
something like that so I thought chances
are over one year this should end up
doing better but even my worst case I
looked at the the downside risk first
and like realistically downside I I
could lose 40 30 but the upside is
whatever I did it for the video I didn't
really care so this could have gone down
to zero and be like hey guys well here's
a video on it now I lost all my money
that was my thought process going
through it but it performed quite well
better than I ever expected it made 44
in the first year uh which I think is a
is a testament that like anyone could
make money in 2020 and 2021 it didn't
matter what you were investing in and I
think it gave a lot of people false
confidence that they could both time the
market and also that they were good
investors when a monkey made 44 and that
was picked out of a you know glass
container
okay so you tried again it fails do you
think that it failed just because of the
market conditions change yeah it
actually didn't do as bad as I thought
um I think the monkey portfolio was down
at the time I did the video the monkey
portfolio was down 20 percent
the S P 500 was down 17 so it didn't
quite lag as like it did better than I'm
sure a lot of personal portfolios out
there of individual stock picks uh
didn't do bad I mean because the money
was either going to be invested for a
YouTube video or the S P or like a total
stock market index fund so being down 20
and being able to like use this as an
experiment I think it's a win
okay so I took from that some principles
about why people have such a hard time
buying low and selling High I'm really
curious to see what you think about this
so to me this is purely a game of
psychology you've got the reason people
the reason the average person I want to
be very clear I'm not talking about your
Warren buffetts and people like that who
just have an insane amount of discipline
their principles which is again the kind
of thing I'm always trying to get back
to is how do we abstract this into a
principle
but the principle that I abstract out of
the monkey example is that the monkey is
obviously picking unemotionally they're
not trying to look cool whatever they
don't even know what they're doing
they're just reaching into a thing now
you've
pre-defined what they're going to choose
from so it's not as wide of a gamut
where they could randomly pick you know
penny stocks that are going to end up
being you know terrible lead companies
so we we ran them in a bit but they're
not picking emotionally they aren't
making the classic mistake that people
make which is when you hear something on
Twitter or you read something in an
article whatever it feels almost like
Insider information it feels like I'm
alone in my room I'm coming across this
piece of information it feels like
somebody's sort of whispering in my ear
I feel now smart clever for paying
attention I feel like I know something
somebody else doesn't I don't recognize
that by the time that information makes
it into a tweet or an article it's
already priced into the stock so I go
and grab it then the other thing that
I'm not accounting for is just how long
a year two years three years five years
20 years really is and the reason that I
can't anticipate how long that is is
because I don't know what it's like to
be judged by the anonymous people on the
internet my family Etc so I go from this
moment of feeling like I'm cool which
got me to buy the sinks I think I know
something other people don't know that
makes me feel special to the internet is
telling me I'm a [ __ ] idiot and that
that's okay if I only have to survive
that for a month or two months maybe so
six months I can like swallow it if
things start moving again
but dude to look like a dumbass for two
years
most people just can't do it they didn't
invest in a thesis yeah so how do you
advise people to combat that human
proclivity uh I always think it helps to
look at the historical data I mean
anytime I make a video I I
I'll sometimes put in my thoughts at the
end but I make the entire subject of the
video about the historical data and I
work really hard to make sure that
anything I say is verified or has some
sort of significance to it that's what
makes me feel better personally is just
hey if the Market's down 20 here's the
last 10 times it's bound you know been
down 20 and here's how it looks 15 years
later and here's the the studies on this
and that I think it was in the first
year of investing you have a 70 chance
of being profitable that goes up to 80
something 85 in the second year at 90 in
the third year by the time you get to 20
years so far in the past over like a
hundred and something years it's been
100 positive
sure there could always be that one time
where it's like yep that was the time I
invested it wasn't after 20 it's always
possible but when you look at dollar
cost averaging over over that 20 years
um you have such a wide margin of
getting dividends of buying lower if it
keeps dropping that should even out so I
just look at the data and that to me
makes me feel safer just seeing what
it's done in the past and recognizing
that what we're going through today is
unique but it's nothing that people in
the past didn't also think was unique
where do you go to find the data
I look through the most boring studies
uh anything that I could find on that
there have been multiple Harvard studies
and I read through like the full-on
90 to 100 page like
dissertations on investing I find the
randomest sources through Google all
just find their sources that they've
listed and then find the original like
sometimes I'll see something on CNBC
and they'll include a chart on there and
it said you know source of this study
and then I'll search for that study and
I'll read the whole thing to see where
they pulled that one chart from and see
like the background how they came to
that like I go really into this just
because I find it interesting and
usually you could find some other hidden
gems in there as well how much do you
let that so if we both agree that the
the most widely usable
process for approaching this is hands
off it's long term how much are you
using that information to actually
inform how you're investing versus
um I guess just an almost research
analytical Fascination a lot of the
analytical Fascination is purely just so
I can make a video talking about it
um for people who haven't seen other
videos I find it interesting honestly
none of it's needed I mean at the end of
the day I think a total World stock
market index fund is probably the ideal
approach for a lot of people so um is
that what you have yeah okay so Nick so
I have the s p i have a world market
index or some overlap there and
international stocks all right let's
start breaking these down for people
what is the S P 500 top 500 largest
publicly traded stocks in the US and so
that encompasses everything from Tesla
Apple Amazon is there a group of humans
looking at that deciding who to leave on
yeah so they have a Review Committee and
there are requirements that must be met
in order to be within the s p and what
happens is that as other companies come
up they'll eventually replace those uh
that don't meet that minimum requirement
or maybe let's say stock number 499 is
not performing as well as this other
stock over here so swap it out and I
think that Review Committee meets
gosh like I don't know if I think it's
every quarter
that fund then is being managed at that
point they're actually selling some of
my shares because I've bought into this
whole thing they sell some and they buy
some other they'll rebalance correct
okay very interesting yeah that way
that's why it was such a big deal and
Tesla was being added because the big
talk was that oh they're going to have
to sell and like buy such a huge
quantity of Tesla stock to allocate it
because it was at the very top so I
don't know the exact numbers on that but
I remember that being such a big talking
point of like how how many people are
going to buy Tesla stock now that it's
included interesting so all right that's
the S P 500 talk to me about the more
Global stuff and and how do I get access
to that is this like are you what do you
recommend people do Vanguard Robin Hood
something else you could use any big
brokerage
um as far you could go you know a step
further total stock market index it
includes like small cap studs smaller
companies
um be a little bit more volatile but you
include way more companies and
um I also believe International stocks
is a place for them I think a lot of
people get worried that uh that
International has underperformed the US
for quite some time but there are also
times I think during the the 70s and 90s
that International stocks outperformed
the US and I just see that as a bit of a
counterbalance where you know hey the US
is not doing as well perhaps
International stocks might the truth is
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description alright my friend back to
today's episode give us a rough
breakdown of where your portfolio is
assume people don't know you because I
know you've covered this yeah uh just
right off the bat it's probably 30
something percent real estate 30
something percent
stocks and all the stocks are not 85 of
stocks are probably index funds for the
most part 15 larger companies or larger
individual positions within that that I
have uh 30-ish percent cash 10 would be
other and that might be alternative
Investments
um the crypto allocation I have I think
it's about three percent and that's a
split 50 50 Bitcoin ethereum
um I'm sure there's some other little I
mean that's about is that schmuck
insurance or do you actually think
there's something there
I think perhaps there's something there
I'd rather take a small risk and be in
it than no risk and not
um I've basically any anything I invest
in crypto I just mentally write it off
as zero I just assume it's nothing and
if something comes from that great but
I'm not banking on it I think it's
incredibly interesting and I like the
premise of it but
I have to see it as uh something to have
that's a part of like the risky you know
I think five percent you know risky play
something you know it kind of gets it
out of your system for me that would be
Bitcoin ethereum now in terms of time
allocation how much of your time are you
spending in real estate versus the
stocks and all that stocks is automated
uh that I just buy a little bit every
single day and that's been my thing
literally automated or no automated I do
it okay it's part of my routine it's so
weird but I like being able to like buy
every day so it's the first thing I do
when I wake up is I open my app and I
just place the order it's the exact same
dollar side what you're gonna buy that
day is it just equally distributed or
probably distributed oh yeah I buy the
exact same thing it's just the the s p
International for the most part it's a
total stock market just every day maybe
you could do that men or automatically
is there a reason that you do that
manually
no it's just that I I don't know I just
I have a routine where it's every
morning it says like as I'm waking up
I'm still in bed it's like I'm on the
market bye
it's just I've gotten a habit I've been
doing that now for two and a half years
almost three years three years
interesting and do you uh ever find
because I've heard you say that you'll
check the market see if there's
something that you're gonna make a video
about and if not you go back to bed
and I thought that seems like a recipe
for getting stressed and getting
immediately out of bed every day I'm
always out of bed every day yeah okay uh
I'll never really go back to bed but
every morning I will check what's going
on the market but part of that is like I
feel like that's my job in a sense of
like talking about what's going on on
the market so it's up to me to pick the
topics that I think are going to do well
um you have any sort of emotional
reaction when you see it
no upside down doesn't matter oh no no
it doesn't matter generally when the
Market's down there are more interesting
topics I found
um someone said this or someone did that
and for me I just enjoy talking about
them I'm just like
it's like imagine if you were really
interested in lots of coffee and like
the coffee Mart like having a buddy you
could talk to every single day guess
what just happened with coffee today
this and that it's just I enjoy it um
what are the big levers that you pay
attention to like obviously the FED
raising rates all that stuff matters or
does it it certainly seems to from my
Layman's position yeah it does I think
it has a huge impact on the market I
think an inflation
I I pay attention closely but I also
know that it's not exactly rooted in
what a lot of people are experiencing I
mean by that the inflation numbers that
they have uh they hand select certain
things like owner's equivalent of rents
is a great example where it's you're not
getting the full rent increase because
you're getting what an owner would rent
out their home for uh instead of what
rents actually are if someone were to
leave their building and go rent
something new so that skews a little bit
uh you also account for
additional features that were no longer
available like let's say your iPhone uh
20 years ago that would have been they
would attract the cost of like what's a
phone and what's in you know having a
computer and having a you know a camera
and how those have all gone up in price
but those have become now somewhat
obsolete with your phone so they so they
group those together to come up with an
inflation number based on your phone
um same with food it's can does the
price stay the same but you get less
quantity shrinkflation how does that
play it so there are ways that they can
subtly manipulate the inflation numbers
to a certain degree I believe in certain
categories they can be higher or lower
depending on like what you're spending
money on uh but in that sense it's it's
interesting once you start diving into
exactly how they calculate the inflation
rate and they have a whole they have I
don't know a hundred things that they
calculate from like you know the cost of
bidding your haircuts to you know the
cost of used cars new cars I mean it's
it's wild what what could be tracked and
how much does that does that influence
you from a Content creation standpoint
or does that influence how you actually
approach your investing no as far as
investing now purely content creation I
mean everything that I do day to day is
just it's my life it's what I think
about 24 7 is just like what would make
a good video that's all I think about
it's interesting so that's I separate
that from investing it's just like I
could not do anything and just buy into
the market every day keep an eye out for
a good real estate deal that makes sense
compare that with what with what I could
get with treasury so it's like I look at
my options to think what are the best
options right now where can I find the
most opportunity that's all I would do
if I was not doing YouTube do you make
more off of the investing or off of the
YouTube YouTube by far but investing is
passive it's like a lot of people say
well no you make all your money with
YouTube but it's true but I'm not
spending you know 12 hours a day seven
days a week working my investing
um YouTube is like a job but investing
is is still substantial for me and how
did you make your earliest money I'm
guessing that was all pre-youtube that
was all YouTube I hit my first million
before making a YouTube video and part
part of my reasoning for making the
YouTube video is that I could say like I
was a millionaire and use that in the
title and so like that was part of it
was like my first video how I became a
millionaire in real estate by 26 and
that was my first video
um the first million was a combination
of working as a real estate agent
increasing my income reinvesting all of
that into buying real estate in 2011
early 2012 I bought three properties
it's just off of commissions you were
making as a correct
um
three properties those went up in value
and then I saved save save save save
save save and then I bought another
property I think it was 2015 uh in West
Los Angeles I didn't get the job by the
way so for people that don't know you
worked for the oppenheim group
that's the guys behind Sunset happens to
be the guys that sold me the house that
we're in right now yeah how what was it
about
you because I spoke to Jason about you
oh that's cool and yeah asked him what
he thought about you uh and he said you
were very sharp but I'm curious what it
is that you think made you so good
getting to A Million by 26 is freakish
sort of no matter what the industry and
to get the attention of a high performer
like that I'm curious what you think
what was your skill set other than being
bright we'll take that off the table
that's clear
um well in the beginning I was just I
wouldn't take no for an answer I think
it was very stubborn because when I was
getting my real estate license I wanted
to go and meet other agents so every
single Sunday for months I'd go to open
houses and I'd schedule out just the
open houses worth more than 5 million
bucks because I knew that like I wanted
to sell those houses one day and I go to
open houses and just meet other agents
and just say like hey get my license and
I must have looked so young yeah I
didn't know I didn't know how to dress
either because I would wear this like
over like uh oversized like button-down
shirt and like I would tuck it into my
pants it was horrible thank God I don't
have any pictures back then but I would
go to these agents and just ask like hey
I'm getting my license what do you
recommend like what can I learn what how
do you get your clients and almost
everybody was saying that was a bad time
to get in the real estate industry uh
things are really slight you should go
to college almost everyone said that uh
there were one agent was really nice her
name was Ginger glass and she's also a
top agent here in La she was one of the
few people who actually gave me some
advice is like that's a great business
here's how I made you know here's how I
met a lot of clients here's what you
could do she was fantastic one of the
few people I remember that do you
remember Ginger's Secrets no
damn it what's that no I'm just so
curious I know like what are the what
are the classics that Ginger handed over
I don't remember I just remember her
answers being like very kind uh and her
taking the time I think it was maybe
five minutes it was a busy open house in
Bel Air but I remember her taking the
time and just you know talking to me I
don't remember exactly what the
specifics were I was going I was so
nervous like I wasn't that to walk at
the strangers at all so I was like
forcing myself to go up and talk to
people
um but the one I do remember uh I went
up to an open house in Bel Air I walked
in it was so slow that day like no one
had was coming in I think that the home
was priced at like four and a half
million around there and I talked to
this agent for like two hours and just
like he got also in the business when he
was 18 he was foreign he said he moved
to America could barely speak the
language was working as a server got his
real estate license and ended up doing
incredibly well and I think he started
like 2002 something like that or early
2000s and he offered me out opportunity
after after two hours of talking he said
hey if you want to come help me out uh
come down to my office the next day like
I showed up and I brought chocolate
covered strawberries as a gift show up
there and I just was just there for the
day just watching him like no
expectation of making money nothing I
just I wanted to learn
and from there it evolved into a
relationship where
I would work with him for free I would
do anything you wanted for free and I
just wanted to learn and any business
that I brought in we would split 50 50.
what do you think about people that
suggest to young people that they should
be willing to work for free worked for
me I think it's it's one of the best
things that you could do even Jack over
here worked for free uh that was that
was his end he sent an email and His
email is just like I just want to help I
just want to learn I don't want anything
in return I just want to do this and it
worked I mean I don't see it as being a
bad thing and for me what it was not
about the money in the beginning I mean
it that was certainly why not I enjoyed
it I don't know it was about the freedom
of being able to be my own boss and feel
like I'm doing something for myself
you're way too smart for that Graham I
don't buy that I think that was part of
it may I offer a potential read please
yeah I have a gut instinct you're smart
enough to know if I stop thinking about
money for now I'll learn money monetizes
once unless you invest well but
knowledge will monetize forever and
that's exactly why I want to throw the
table over every time I hear somebody
say that oh you should never let
somebody like take advantage of you like
that don't work for free it's like brah
if I'm gonna be able able to get the
information the contacts from somebody
that's already doing it well all day
I'll work for free I'd work for free now
for whoever like if they've got
something that I need to know I'm in
yeah and so it's just it's insane to me
that there's become this cultural
pushback you're not getting taken
advantage of unless you're doing it
poorly
so all right anyway so we go to this guy
we're working for free he's gonna Now
teach us something did he end up
teaching you something that you
everything I would say everything in the
beginning really for the first
two years three years I would do
anything you wanted
um he wants me to go to an open house
early
turn on all the lights get it ready
print out all the listing paper like
anything but I learned that's how I
learned I learned how to do everything
from like putting up open house signs to
how to show a client I would just be
sitting there he'd be showing around a
client and I would just be turning on
the lights listening to how he would
present the property how many hours a
week are you working at this point
every day probably 12 hours a day but I
loved it I mean I didn't I just wanted
to do that if you loved it because you
like real estate because you like people
or the freedom potential I was obsessed
with it I just I think I had this
personality trait where I latch on to
like one thing and I just get obsessed
with it and I do nothing but that and
for me at that time was real estate I
just how do you make the most out of
obsession how do you translate that into
something usable do you think about like
all right you have to know I want to
sell a 10 million dollar house in the
next three years and there now I have a
goal and I'm going to obsess over things
that actually can lead me to that or do
you just more this seems exciting I'm
going to pursue it I don't know what's
going how have you managed to
to make use of your obsession I did just
intuition I don't know it just it felt
to me like the right choice and I just
did it
interesting I just tweeted about
intuition today really I get ragey over
intuition do you think that you're born
with Intuition or do you think that you
had somehow trained your intuition
generally I've always had a feeling of
what I should be doing and I've just
left it maybe
I I don't know I I couldn't tell you
um
like in high school I was drawn to the
drums or middle school actually I was
drawn to the drums and uh I played in
the middle school jazz band and they had
like this little rinky drum set and I
just practiced on that and that led to
like me meeting so many friends in high
school because I you had to play the
drums you could play in like you know
High School bands and whatnot
that just felt like the right choice at
the time
um aquariums were a big thing for me too
and and uh High School I worked
part-time at a marine aquarium also I
just love that was another thing I just
got obsessed with it I just loved
aquariums for some reason and that was
another thing I would work for free in
the beginning I didn't care about making
money I just wanted to be around fish
and coral like I found that so much fun
um are you really just to follow your
bliss kind of guy or at least in the
early years I think in the early years
now I probably get two in my head about
things you know if I have an intuition I
should be doing this it's it's hard now
I overthink things whereas I think in
the past I was more just like free about
it like that
uh
I don't know I I probably just the
experience of just having more reference
points of like hey these things worked
out in the past like before like if
something didn't work out I'd have it
wouldn't make a difference I would just
you know I was young and just do
anything is it that you have something
to lose now Perhaps Perhaps that that's
it or there's more on the line there's
more risk
um YouTube has probably changed that a
lot because now there's so many people
watching yeah so anything I do I feel
the pressure of just like being watched
where if it's just me
you know you could pivot you could do
whatever it's it's just me but I I think
there's definitely that added layer of
just like well what if I do is wrong or
what if it doesn't work and just that
pressure now
probably more FTX thing
add I mean it's it's a terrible
situation that's something that I never
saw coming I never expected it and that
and that was a real wake-up call for me
of just like you know I hate to say I
trusted them and so going through that
uh feeling like
you know I put my name on something and
going through that whole experience and
seeing the impact that's had and then
learning a lot about this like real time
on Twitter has been
both a horrible experience
but also eye-opening of just like this
is this you know I I put myself in the
line of fire on this and so that's
something I'll make sure never happens
or I'll do my best so when you think
about doing your best and obviously I
have a vested interest in learning from
you because when you're selecting
advertisers there's a certain level of
like uh how even just how you can
conduct a level of due diligence is
difficult so
how will you avoid something like that
again
I think right off the bat it's
I won't talk about anything that's not
FDIC or sipc insured I think for me
mentally I thought I was in the clear
because I wasn't talking about like a
crypto coin I wasn't talking about any
specific investment I'm like The
Brokerage itself and I've been a huge
proponent of you know five percent you
know less than five percent of your net
worth if you want you could risk it and
that's what I'm doing
um
I think putting that amount of trust in
a company like that who doesn't have the
proper Protections in place was a was a
mistake what is up my friend Tom bilyu
here and I have a big question to ask
you how would you rate your level of
personal discipline on a scale of one to
ten if your answer is anything less than
a ten I've got something cool for you
and let me tell you right now discipline
by its very nature means compelling
yourself to do difficult things that are
stressful boring which is what kills
most people or possibly scary or even
painful now here is the thing achieving
huge goals and stretching to reach your
potential requires you to do those
challenging stressful things and to
stick with them even when it gets boring
and it will get boring building your
levels of personal discipline is not
easy but let me tell you it pays off in
fact I will tell you you're never going
to achieve anything meaningful unless
you develop discipline all right I've
just released a class from Impact Theory
university called how to build Ironclad
discipline that teaches you the process
of building yourself up in this area so
that you can push yourself to do the
hard things the greatness is going to
require of you right click the link on
the screen register for this class right
now and let's get to work I will see you
inside this Workshop from Impact Theory
University until then my friends be
legendary peace out
and so going back to the idea of people
watching and so it adds like a layer of
I don't know just add something
different to choices how has the
reaction been and how do you think about
navigating that as you move forward is
it has it been mild and you don't really
have to think about it or has there been
a lot of pushback and it's something
that you're navigating through with your
community because like so we did
nfts doing nfts I'm a huge believer and
so when we launched my whole thing was
hey don't treat this like an investment
vehicle uh this is something we're going
to build for the long term I don't know
if it's going to go up in price or not
and so when we launched and it didn't
rock it to the moon everybody like blew
up and it was it was the first time
where I realized oh there's a difference
between an audience and a community and
so now I was like oh wow this is
um this is a whole thing like I need to
put all my time and energy into managing
the community and figuring out how uh
you know we process through this and get
everybody to understand where we're
going where we're like all that and so
um that was really big what we ended up
doing is different because it's a
product so I because my background is
product it was easy I just gave people
refunds if they wanted a refund but how
do you think about managing the
community or has it not been that kind
of issue it's been uh an effort to sift
through and find the constructive
criticism because there are people who
are going to hate I think no matter what
you do and you know they could they
could find anything they want to if they
look hard enough and I believe that you
know there are some very valid points
that I do need to take into
consideration and it so it's for me it's
sifting through and finding the ones
that I feel are coming from a good place
that I could Implement for myself
so has there been anything from that
that you're like okay that's the the
good stuff obviously the the vitriolic
responses we can set aside but is there
what's like the Keen insight as all of
us try to navigate this especially me
because I'm not trying to get out of the
web through world I'm going deeper I'm
going deeper into crypto it's more
interesting I believe in it more than
ever but it's like I in a million years
never would have guessed just the level
of scams that awaited yeah
um
so we've got the making sure that
something is pre-verified that makes a
lot of sense are there other things that
the community's thrown out yeah I mean I
never understood just how much
you know anytime I talk about something
how much my face and my likeness and
just me as a person and my reputation is
tied to that
um you know for instance I've talked all
the time about Ally Bank and I've been
using it for years now
um I never made the connection so much
of like
how much my name is now associated with
that or any product I talk about
discover is another one it's like I've
never been sponsored by them but I just
I like their credit card that much but I
worry that if even I talk about
something like I highly doubt anything's
gonna discover but I'm just saying like
you never know like I I've been proven
wrong and it makes me very weary about
uh talking about anything where I have
my whole reputation tied to that I think
is a risk that I never fully considered
to that point or to that extent
yeah I hear that it is uh it is a
fascinating thing the big advantage to a
company that's using uh you know a
personality like you or me is that hey
it's like they get to hear the words
coming out of my mouth and that
obviously means something but at the
same time I'm not going to tell you I'm
using it unless I'm actually using it so
it's this really fascinating thing I'm
watching Jordan Peterson navigate this
in real time where he does not do any of
his own ad reads it's so there's a level
of distance between him and the product
potentially interesting but I think that
in this day and age you're far better
off saying to the audience hey I'm going
to carry some of the weight of like
figuring out who these people are doing
my best yeah but in the end there's only
going to be able to there's only so much
that you're going to be able to do ahead
of time it's interesting I run into
um because I haven't done a lot of
crypto stuff despite my presence in the
space for me it's more on the health
side so I'm like God always as a guy
that owned a nutrition company and that
lives by certain things and is
constantly talking about what I actually
eat I feel like an obligation to only
bring on advertisers I won't say that I
use because we definitely have a lot of
advertisers I don't use but that are
things that I think somebody else could
benefit from
but yeah it's a it's a tricky landscape
I agree how much interaction do you have
with your community like so I have a
Discord so it's like hyper interactive
yeah it's a lot I I that was another
thing I became obsessive of up until a
million subscribers I answered 99 of the
comments I mean almost every single
comment
uh just like I you know buy stocks every
morning I would not get out of bed until
I answered every single comment Jesus
and then I wouldn't go to bed until
every comment was answered like up until
the point where I last stopped and just
like throughout the day I did that for a
million subscribers because I didn't
know any other creator that would do
that and I felt like that's something
that I could do for the audience because
I know how much for me I love YouTube
and so if I commented on like someone's
video that I was watching before even
making videos if that person responded
to me like that made my day and so I
thought if I could give that back to
another person
why why am I not doing that especially
if they take the time to subscribe or
watch my video I'm like so appreciative
of that so like if they comment I'm
gonna do my best to comment back now it
got to a point where I spent like four
hours a day on comments and it became it
started to hinder my ability to do
anything else so like I cut down
dramatically but even now I still spend
an hour after every video post
responding in the comments
it's really cool I think that's a big
way to make people feel connected that
makes a lot of sense so as you navigate
something like FTX how much of that
conversation is like
um you did me dirty and then from your
side it's like okay how do we begin to
rebuild this bridge or have they reacted
in a completely different way it's not
because it's difficult to tell the
trolls from actual constructive
criticism sometimes we'll see a comment
on my page and then I'll see it exact
from the same person on other people's
page as well and I know from like that
person's not it they want to get a
reaction and so it's it's just at least
for me I I read I want to say 90 of the
comments at least in the first hour uh
maybe two hours I see them all
um so it's about picking the pieces I
would say most the overwhelming majority
are positive but you get the few that
are that are not and that's you know
even before anything it was always you
know they hate my facial expressions
they think I have a comfortable face
they don't like my voice I mean there's
always going to be something
and so like I said like if you look hard
enough you'll find something and there's
always going to be something for
everybody
um and I've gotten better about just
being able to tone that out and and
think about where their perspective is
and try to empathize with them and and
why what led them to making that comment
is what could it be is it something's
bothering them is it something I'm doing
I try to take a very objective look at
those comments no what is your
Community want from you like what is the
need that you meet in their life I would
say both entertainment and reinforcing
the basics I just I've always been a
proponent of like index funds saving
money has been a big one
um consistency I think is very important
um mixed in with I think just some
little mild humor that I find
interesting I mean from the very
beginning I just made the videos that I
myself would want to watch and I've just
kind of taken that approach of like if I
was on YouTube today what would I want
me to talk about and I just do that
and when you
um are coming up with the Timeless
elements and things and you start
getting into the saves they've saved
how like I've heard you do both where
it's like hey you really need to save
hardcore and then I heard you say that
if you could go back in time you might
save a tiny bit Yeah
but uh and watching them of course so
what do you think about in that blend
how much should people be saving is it
called fire Lifestyles yeah Financial
Independence so are you like that
hardcore I like I have these just things
I get obsessed with and you know it's
basically anything I do I'm just like
hardcore about it but saving was one of
those things was it like a gamified
thing for you or is actually fun I
enjoyed it
um it was unhealthy to the point where I
remember I'd be tracking gas and like
not wanting to spend five dollars in gas
to go and see a friend like that's
unhealthy because you end up not seeing
the friend correct got it I see that
five I kid you not
um this was I had a job uh like around
the time I was finishing up high school
where I was earning I think it was like
seven dollars and fifty cents an hour
maybe like 8.50 and that five dollars in
gas I'm like that's an hour like I'm
gonna see this friend for two hours
tonight I'm gonna spend an hour of that
just working extra to pay that gas it
was like so stupid
um things like that wouldn't have
mattered but I I guess I just thought in
my mind how hard I would have to work to
make that money
um
and just like doing the cost benefit
analysis of going and seeing a friend
like that stuff I should not have been
doing the part that was fun so we'll
we'll say that there's pathology in both
sides right so you can spend way too
much money and it becomes problematic
your degenerate Gambler or whatever
you're racking a massive debt and then
over here you don't spend the five
dollars to go see a friend and your life
is you know loses richness for it
correct well say that you've backed off
from that how do you make that a fun
experience for somebody that's listening
now that wants to create some dry powder
to take advantage of opportunities
they're you they're 18 they come to it
they're ready they want to start getting
into it but they've got no money how do
you make that part of the journey
enjoyable I I look at everything as uh
where can I get the best bang for the
buck like where does my money go the
furthest and let's just say like going
out to a bar will give that as an
example the drinks there are
fifteen dollars each you're here in West
Hollywood like 18 a drink
uh what if you just have a drink with
your friends at uh you know at their
place
and uh you know you got later you get
one drink instead of three well now all
of a sudden you've saved 36 dollars or
maybe forty dollars with the tax and tip
um you get pretty much the same
experience for way less
um do you need to do anything to make
that fun or was that automatically
interesting to you I had to make that
fun just to sort of load the question
here so for me I was just if I had money
I spent it just how I always was living
paycheck to paycheck one time lost my
job I couldn't pay all my bills at the
same time like I was just always at a
Razor's Edge and then when I got married
I realized okay I have to find a way to
make saving money fun otherwise it's
going to be a stressful marriage and so
I got the app mint I don't know if it's
still around yep that was awesome still
use mint it was pulling in my data and I
could go oh I'm gonna treat this like an
80s Montage where we have to get the
thermometer to raise and you know I'm
getting as I say my thirty six dollars
I'm actually gonna put that into savings
and go hey I would have spent this at
the bar but now I just save that I need
to see that so now I'm going to apply it
to a different account so I made all
these different accounts I was like this
is my spending money and I just had an
automatic amount that would go into it
every month here's my bill money
whatever and then here's savings and if
I ever did something like oh I could go
out and spend that money but instead I'm
Gonna Save it I would go actively move
36 dollars over into my savings I would
see it go higher Lisa and I would get
around we'd look at it and be like oh
it's going up like this is so neat and
setting goals and hitting the goals and
that I was like whoa I actually gamified
something I never thought that I could
enjoy just by having dashboards goals
and it's a little bit like
when you're trying to lose weight the
losing the way in and of itself is not
fun but if you have something and that
something is so often the mirror where
it's like you're like oh my God like I'm
actually getting leaner I can you know
I'm going from a no pack to a two pack
from a two pack to a four pack it
actually gets pretty exciting but you
need that reinforcement of you know
taking the photos and this is what data
was and all that and so did you have
something like that or have you just
always been really Frugal by nature
always been Frugal by Nature I I got
mint I think in 20 11 2010 so I still
have all of my data from back then it
was really cool I still have the exact
same account they're all in there and
I've been able to track everything uh
I've always been interested in saving
money so that's just been like I've just
been predispositioned it like just the
default has always been saved uh in the
beginning now when I started working as
an agent I was so worried about
consistency if it's like my income was
so fluctuating and I have no idea how
much money I'd make and so my thinking
was that like
I I was able to get like a 10 to 15
return on my real estate Investments
back then and I would just think to
myself even assuming a 10 return every
ten thousand dollars I save that's a
thousand dollars that I'd be able to
make in real estate for the rest of my
life and I just viewed everything like
that like whatever I'm spending ten
percent I could be getting every year
forever and if I could earn enough then
I'll never have to worry about like
working a job I didn't like or having to
report to a boss or so that was a lot of
my motivation of just like saving like
uh you know even spending a hundred
dollars going out I'm like I could have
ten dollars a year for the rest of my
life if I just invest this money in real
estate and so I just you know I that was
more exciting I mean just making the
passive income and so I just diverted
everything towards that
and what is advice that you have for
people that are looking at this exact
moment
and they don't know what to do what's
the advice that you give that you know
most people won't take but it's like the
advice
um the things that have helped me the
most early on I would say the book Think
and Grow Rich interesting that will
change my life dead me too I can I
remember where I was when I read it what
was it about that book that hit you I
think the mindset that you're able to do
I think all the mindset exercises and
the belief that you could do it really
sets you in the right trajectory in
terms of where you focus your energy and
I think so many people are
only focusing on the negatives like
let's just say on this table there's a
hundred pieces of like you know 100
coins and then on the other side is like
you know two of them are winners
I think a lot of people just focus oh
look at all the negative around it oh
there's all these you know only two two
out of 102 chance of like hitting a
winner
I that book really taught me to focus on
the winners and like wow there's two
opportunities in there like I'm gonna
find those two opportunities if I turn
over a loser I'm Gonna Keep Going
whereas other people would see that it's
like oh there's you know there's only
two so I think it really made me focus
on not all the negative and not all like
you know the chances of failure but like
where where are the opportunities here
and like just pinpointing those I think
was huge for me why do you think people
don't take that advice
I think that's a great question
I think it's hard to get out of a cycle
I think when you get on a path of
hanging around the wrong people that's
all you know is is
discouragement negativity hardship I
think it's really difficult to get
yourself out of that
um
and I've been in a very fortunate
position I think to
uh like have a great family who's very
supportive and I guarantee if I didn't
have that sort of backing I'm just like
just supporting me no matter what I
wanted to do
like I don't know if it would have been
as easy as it is for me today if I
didn't have that like
help in the beginning of just just
emotionally if I had a bad day like I
knew I could talk to my parents about it
um or just have their blessing behind
like hey I don't want to go to college
even though they wanted me to go to
school just like you can do that
um
I think that's probably why I think it's
really difficult to get out of that
negative
self-fulfilling cycle if all you know so
far is failure why would you trust the
process of thinking anything different
what do you think the role of short-term
versus long-term thinking is going to
play for somebody young right now who
believes the system is broken to your
point whether it's the people you're
hanging out with or the message that is
just getting beaten into people right
now hey it's all broken it's never gonna
work
and I'll I'll I guess stop dancing
around my bias in this question and just
tell you sort of where it's coming from
so I think that this is a tremendous
whenever you have disruption I think of
it from a business lens whenever there's
disruption in business there's a huge
opportunity most people however are
blinded by momentum they're moving in a
certain direction to your point and they
just can't get off that track and so
even in that moment of disruption they
never capitalize on it and so the reason
people say that there's more
millionaires made in a depression is
because there's so much disruption
things are at a discount but most people
don't have the dry powder to be able to
move but even if they did they don't
have the willingness to make the bet
they don't have the expertise to know
which bet to make even if they do
and so you get this you just sort of
live through it you go through the hard
time you never do anything so we have
this huge moment of disruption right now
I don't think virtually anybody's going
to do anything with it it's going to be
that really narrow band of personality
type that has the tolerance for risk
they happen to be at a point in their
life or they have just enough dry powder
where they can make a small investment
you actually had a really cool story
about this
oh God where Ford there was like at the
beginning of the recession you invested
like you had a lingering account with a
couple hundred dollars
yeah it was it was one of those where I
was like okay there's so many little
things you had to understand and be the
kind of person that would do certain
things in the moment anyway they don't
even have the couple hundred or they
have the couple hundred bucks but
they're they're not going to deploy it
against anything they're going to go
into defensive mode they're not going to
get offensive and so I look at this
moment and I think okay
the vast vast vast majority no matter
what I say in this interview they're not
going to go do it they're not going to
dollar cost average they're not going to
pick an index fund and blindly invest
they're not going to realize as the
stock market is going down that that's
when they should be buying but to quote
Warren Buffett to paraphrase Warren
Buffett stocks are the only thing when
the price goes down people get
a verse like they don't want the the
price of a car goes down you get excited
the cars the price of a stock goes down
you don't because it's an emotional buy
I won't derail us all in that for a
second but so that's what I think is
going to happen right now I don't think
people are going to capitalize on this
now maybe you think that's good as it
should be whatever you don't want to
push people out of their comfort zone
but just in case that's not your answer
do you think people should be on the
offensive right now yeah of course I
think now is the time like I think from
the very beginning just like doubling
down on what you're doing and the effort
that you're putting in now is not a time
I think to take a step back or take your
foot off the pedal I think now is the
time where you could really just
learn as much as possible
um would you point people to a specific
type of learning
I I would say generally a career is
probably the best option
um I see that as something that people
have the most direct control over as
they can in terms of where they spend
their time is it spending time on Tick
Tock for hours I think I'm beginning to
understand what you were trying to tell
me in the beginning though so you're
saying hey you're going to do the
passive investing thing it's not going
to take your time and energy so that's
not going to be where you double down
learn grow and get better and the
average person should be thinking about
their career that's going to kick off
some Capital put that capital in to the
index fund and all that correct yeah I
think in terms of what people have
Direct Control like you can't control
what the FED does you can't control what
the stock market is going to do tomorrow
there's so many things outside of your
control but people spend the majority of
their time focusing on that when they
could be spending that time
figuring out how they can make more
money or how they could cut back to save
more so that they have more left over
and I know that's easier said than done
and I know a lot of people just aren't
in a position where they could be like
okay I'll just work harder if they have
you know a family or the
responsibilities or other things that
that pull their time away but I do think
just always work harder Graham until you
run out of hours you may hate that but
that I feel very strongly about that but
I I think those things
um would benefit people the most
interesting straight down the middle
pitch so given that why is your channel
so successful because you're saying the
basics over and over and over largely to
an audience that really knows you so
they're coming back so is it that to
your audience you take them into more
nuanced territory or is it
just trying to reinforce time and again
I think that's good to a certain degree
I worry that it's repetitive and I get
to calm I see the comments of just like
you know you made this video before you
just talked about it there's only so
much when it comes to investing that you
could say before like I thought I was
repeating myself after like a few months
just because a lot of the principles
stay the same I think to a certain
audience it helps to repeat the basics
and they like just hearing the same
message over again
um could be just like a personal trainer
to the gym like hey do more reps or you
know keep doing this have this good form
just it helps to be encouraged along the
way and know you're at least maybe on
the right track
but beyond that it's like I just love
making videos and I try to make them as
entertaining as possible and just
thinking that if if someone has like 15
minutes and they want to watch a video
and maybe learn something new just
something that I find intro that's
always been the approach that I've taken
is like what would I want to hear myself
and what would I want to talk about and
then I think people are looking to
figure out when to buy and sell though
I'm sure there has to be I think that's
just human nature and what do you think
about taking profits do you advise
people to do that depends on their
position I think if they invested like
Dogecoin is a great example I've seen so
many people with life-changing amount of
money with Dogecoin and I'm like dude no
like and by and it's not me like you
know trying to give anyone Financial
advice here but I'm like you you have a
significant amount of money here
why wouldn't you take that off the table
like this is life-changing here and I
and I think it's a combination of maybe
just greed or Define greed for me I
always
I always Hackle a little bit when people
say greed ah it feels more like
excitement to me no I think it's I think
it's wanting more or feeling like I've
done this so far why can't it continue
and I think it's embellious greed
I think under certain circumstances yeah
I do
um
I think it depends on the context but
yeah I think it can be interesting I
mean you are definitely the majority
that's how everybody looks at it
and so thankfully I'm in a position
where I'd already made my money but as
we were doing the crypto stuff and it
was just rocketing and I'm doing all
this content telling people look I don't
know where this is going but I will tell
you right now you need to look at this
you need to understand it because it
this represents something there's so
much energy and so much momentum and at
a minimum you need to look at it and I
had one guy in the company uh off of a
single text based jpeg text man it
wasn't even an image yeah he was able to
put a down payment on a house it was six
figures it was crazy I could not believe
it and so that was like people were oh
no you should let it ride whatever I was
like bro you you can turn that into a
house like you need to you need to do
that that makes all the sense simple to
me but I never felt like because I get
the excitement of like oh my God like I
want this to go on forever but I never
saw it as greed certainly not in myself
but now wouldn't you say that's the same
thing at a casino where if you let's say
you put all your money on roulette and
you hit that number and you're 32 extra
money or 35 what whatever the return is
30 extra money and then that person says
let me do it again I did it right I was
right on that one I know what I'm doing
yeah double down yeah yeah that's not
greed that's gambling so here here is an
utterly fascinating part what do you
think gambling can be greedy in a
certain extent I don't know because
that's not entertainment I don't think
people are necessarily entertained by
that I think that's the promise of easy
money yes so now we might be co-mingling
something that I'm not tracking but to
stay on Greed for a second so here's the
way gambling reads to me
gambling becomes an addiction
specifically because of dopamine so it
becomes a dopamine problem dopamine is
about the anticipation of a reward it's
not I'm gonna get something that you're
not going to have now it's possible that
that's tied up for that person and
that's part of what makes it so exciting
is
I'm going to be able to Lord over these
plebes because I'm going to win the same
it's it is very possible especially if
you're a dark Triad person but you're
talking about dopamine so then I'm like
okay well I get dopamine I get it from
playing a video game and there are times
where I will keep working at a level
because I want to win this level because
I want that dopamine reward I know it's
going to feel so amazing if I win and I
wouldn't call that greed and it to me is
a very similar thing and I think part of
the reason people get themselves in
trouble is they're told to watch out for
greed and when they get there they're
like I'm not being greedy at all this is
just exciting this is fun this is cool I
think I can win this will be amazing and
if I win like good things will happen so
I think they're getting excited and if
people were told watch out for the
excitement now I had never lit because I
just wasn't paying attention to finance
at all until long story Madness is tired
of hearing me talk about it
until I had to learn about money because
of the blockchain I just didn't
understand investing I'm good at making
money I'm not good at investing money so
anyway coming into all of this
um it was all very fresh and very new
for me so as I'm doing this and it
starts to kick in that dopamine response
I'm like oh wow I don't feel greedy at
all but that's what everyone keeps
saying but what I do feel is excitement
now just by way of definition of greed
greed to me is when you want to take
something from somebody else so that you
have more than them and F them right and
that part of the the joy is like their
downfall that you just want to covet
cover covet take take versus what I
think actually happens and this is why
people don't see it coming when they get
in it and people have warned them don't
get greedy they're waiting for that
moment where they feel like Ebenezer
Scrooge and they never get there for
them it's just fun it's a game they're
excited like oh my God this is going up
so cool I'm going to be able to help
people I'm gonna give my money away
there's no greed here and then boom they
get obliterated because they didn't say
that's well said so if somebody's going
to start warning them hey watch out for
the excitement and this is where I was
going so I I had never lived through
Euphoria before in the market and so
when crypto blew up I was like there's
so much energy you feel like a genius
everybody is in a good mood it's like
gmgmgm I was just like crazy and you
feel this cultural energy that is
intoxicating
and now I know that's what I have to
watch out for that if I feel that energy
the end is nigh and knowing that now
like every bit of advice that I've heard
from like real Rockstar investors starts
clicking into place and you're like oh
my God now I get what's happening so
that is
advice that I would give that's well
said I like that
it's interesting okay so what are your
like if you were going to give people
sort of the the prime nutshell of
everything that you want them to know
about investing over the next six to 12
months in this very strange climate that
we have but only investing so take their
career all that set that off to the side
do they pick a lane to learn about
something so we're gonna we'll give them
what I call the rstlme if you're
familiar with Wheel of Fortune so we'll
have them you're gonna dollar cost
average in you're gonna do index funds
so they've heard that the first part of
this interview but now we're going to
take that discretionary part or let's
say that this is somebody who's just
excited they love this stuff and so they
want to do a little bit of buying and
selling it's going to be a small part of
their portfolio but how do you get them
pointed in the right direction that's a
there's a loaded question I don't know
because
um
I
I mean it should be a part where they
don't need the money I mean first and
forema it would be it would be terrible
if they invested in anything where it's
like they need that six months from now
they're like I can't pay my rent because
of this I generally say
um and I like investing companies that
that I personally use and like and uh I
wanted to actually make a video about
this and I realized it would take too
long and cost too much money but I
wanted to invest a hundred dollars in
everything that I touched in 24 hours
really fascinating so I wake up in a
Toll Brothers house so there's 100 to
Toll Brothers I sleep in a Casper
mattress I think they're maybe I don't
know if they have a stock probably
invest a hundred dollars into that uh
you know look at my iPhone 100 in the
Apple
um and just keep doing that throughout
the day and then add up like how many uh
companies are there that we use on a
day-to-day basis that maybe you don't
even think about uh like the trash was
picked up by Republic Services
uh in the hundred dollars in them I
think companies that you like and use
chances are there are companies that
other people like and use and perhaps
they have a good future
I think that's really interesting do you
know the Wall Street Trapper he gives
the same advice I found that really
interesting so he grew up in the inner
cities so just a totally different
economic Viewpoint and he was telling
people don't wear it if you don't own it
and so he's like everybody spends their
money to have the fancy clothes and all
that but they don't own the company that
makes all of that stuff and I thought by
way of a general principle it's a pretty
interesting idea I very much hope that
you do that unfortunately we have to
wrap where can people follow you well on
the iced coffee hour YouTube channel
because we're going to have you on right
now so if you want to see this flipped
the iced coffee hour just type that in
on YouTube and you'll see it and that's
it if you like this episode with graham
Stefan be sure to check out this next
episode where you can learn all about
the mindset that's necessary for finding
success in finance people follow these
somewhat predictable
moves on the Spectrum when you're young
you'll take all the risk in the world
when you have a little Capital you maybe
get a little bit less risky that's
normal
but I remember a mentor of mine many
years ago
uh he was he was a pretty successful
Silicon Valley investor so we were out
for lunch and he was talking about we're
talking about money and he said ramit I
have a no debt policy in my family
and I thought to myself I was young I
thought to myself wow must be nice not
have to take any loans buy a car cash I
wasn't even thinking about a house but
he has a no debt policy
now that I've gotten older I've grown my
own business and personal wealth
I actually admire him even more because
as someone who has a lot of money he
could easily leverage himself
to buy a house buy a car all kinds of
stuff but he doesn't he knows what
enough is
so out of all my friends well let me ask
you do you have enough
no okay
we can get into why I want to know why
so I've actually heard you say and
people say this all the time you want to
talk about a money lie that drives me
crazy
uh you've got hundreds of millions of
dollars you can never spend it what dude
I could drop easily half a billion
dollars just making one film and
marketing it so to me it's like bro I
need so much money to do what I'm trying
to do yeah so even though
in the average world I'm freakishly
wealthy with what I'm trying to build I
feel hamstrung by money all the way wow
so all I think about is how do we
generate more Revenue so that we can
keep investing in the business
so but I don't fall prey to that I don't
actually have enough you know what I
mean like for what I'm trying to build I
don't have enough but if I stop having
fun huh then I just stop and go be rich
okay so I'm not I don't trap myself in
in uh foolish beliefs
we could really derail into frame of
reference right now which I actually
think is the ultimate thing that you
point out for people yeah but to get
into frame reversals maybe later well
first of all just say I like your answer
a lot
um I only know one other person besides
me who says he has enough he's a friend
of mine he also studied all my money
stuff years ago and he's done very well
and I asked him recently do you have
enough yes didn't miss a beat I was
stunned I was like meeting a unicorn I
said what you have you're the only
person I've ever heard say that besides
me and we talked about it
he understands money he understands
compounding he knows how much he has
today and he knows if he does nothing
else he just leaves that turkey in the
oven and just lets it sit it's going to
turn into a huge amount of money he
knows how to spend it how to leverage it
leverage meaning not use leverage but
how to
um make you make use of it yeah
so
I don't mind if most people would not
answer yes to that question I don't mind
it your answer is great it's on a far
end of the spectrum but I do want people
to know
what is enough
and if I asked somebody what is it I
asked them this all the time in my
podcast and their answer is uh a million
bucks
or three million bucks I go okay
how'd you come up with that and they go
well you know I just
I feel like that's like a good amount
like I'll feel safe when I have that
and I go can I tell you something I go
yeah yeah I go
you genuinely believe that when you have
2.5 million dollars in the bank you're
going to feel safe it's never going to
happen
the way you feel about money is highly
uncorrelated with how much you've got in
the bank and I I've talked to people on
the podcast who have 100 they believe
they need a hundred thousand dollars
to feel safe a million 10 million 15
million
and without fail when they get there
they're still worried they're still
worried because the two are independent
so we have to understand first of all
what does a million dollars mean how
much can you generate from that how if
you do nothing and you want to keep that
money safe how much can you turn that
into in terms of cash flow that's just
basic understanding things like the four
percent rule but then we need to
understand the emotional psychological
part of money that's super neglected
especially among techy guys you know
they're over here on making their
spreadsheets in the fire Community they
go oh I need my Trinity rule I need to
do my spreadsheets I go man you're gonna
go the rest of your life optimizing your
spreadsheet and you're never going to
actually feel good about money and that
has been the focus of my work for the
last few years it's very interesting I
always find myself drawn to what's the
psychology of that person
because the fire person they're not
focused on the same thing that you are
correct but they're getting off on like
really scrimping and scraping and like
it that has become the game for them and
I remember when I was really broke and I
wanted to spend money and I didn't have
money to spend and I'm not sure what
gave me the the idea but this ended up
working amazingly what if I gamified
saving what if I put all of my dopamine
in that basket so that as I watch my
bank balance go up even though it was
going up from like 115 to 127
could I get a dopamine spike out of that
and become obsessive about saving and it
worked it was awesome you still do that
no not at all how did you turn it off I
got really rich
so I mean this is like and okay so there
there are things about my brain that I
am really grateful for and there's
things about my brain that really piss
me off but I am hyper malleable and I
know how to change myself so when I
needed to save yeah I was like
intuitively understood I need to make
this a game because then I'll be
attracted to that I didn't I wouldn't
have said oh it's about dopamine but I
knew it'll be fun that was the only way
I could explain it I'll make this fun
so I knew how to make that fun but the
whole point of me getting into business
and doing all this was so that I could
build the studio so I once I got there
then it just became a question of
what do I want to use the money for
which I know is a big thing that you
talk about but I want to talk about
safety for a second because as you were
saying that I realized I will never
having money in the bank will never make
me feel safe the oh there's literally no
amount of money because I know how easy
it is to spend on something big or take
a big risk and it's all gone the thing
that makes me feel safe is that I know
how to make money and so my skill set
makes me feel impervious so I don't the
only fear I actually do have one fear
around losing my money and that's it
will it will really not make me look
cool to my wife if you lose money if I
lost money yeah so that would I would
not feel studly
in front of my wife and so that makes me
really bummed out the thought of that
happening but because I know I can
rebuild yeah dude honestly like I
sometimes fantasize
about
starting it all over but like not I
can't even start my own company I have
to go in somebody else's company do you
know how fast I would get promoted
through that [ __ ] company you want to
come work for me in the mail yeah come
on that'd be amazing yes if should it
all go away give me a call but yeah uh
okay so that's amazing the fact that
when I talk to you it's so interesting I
hear similar things that I hear from
other people but your reasoning and your
level of reasoning is just completely
different from others it makes perfect
sense you know you are as successful as
you are and you think about this stuff
every single day it's like a joy to talk
to you most people
are scared of not having enough most
people worry about money they believe
that a certain number will make them
feel safe in your case you worry about
money a little bit you don't feel safe
with money those two things are the same
but your your impervious to uh that type
of risk because you know how to make
money and you acknowledge it might be
embarrassing you know for you and your
wife definitely be embarrassing what I
want people to do
is to go deeper than just saying
um I don't feel safe with money I want
people to go deeper than saying I worry
about money I and this is what I do I
ask them what words are you
what worries you and they'll say well I
I don't know if I have enough I'll say
do you want to find out right now let's
just do the math
they've worried about money for 25 years
and they've never pulled out a
calculator which you can find on Google
in two seconds and typed in four numbers
that really tells you that it is deeply
psychological and emotional
um they worry that because they don't
have Clarity on what they want and so
enough is inherently related to what you
want to do with it
the word enough is just this repository
of worries
and if I say what is enough they'll just
make up a number and I say okay 2
million cool where'd you get that from
again they just pulled it out because it
feels right it's kind of like when I ask
people how much do you spend on a
vacation how do you decide how much to
spend on a vacation it's a very
interesting question it reveals a lot
for everybody watching you know how do
you decide how much you spend on a
vacation
and what people often do is
they will say ah you know I figure like
it should probably be around like 5 000
bucks for this type of trip that I'm
trying to take I said cool how did you
come up with that number
and we probe and probe and it turns out
in their early 20s when they first
started having some money they went on
vacation and they have basically
imprinted that number
now now imagine I'm talking to a 40 year
old
45 year old
she and her husband have been very
successful
they have 10 million dollars this is a
podcast episode that I had
and they're still saying their vacation
should be five thousand dollars
and they really value their vacation
they love it but when they go on it
they're always worried about money I
said something's wrong here and the
answer is you haven't turned the page on
your finances in that season of life
like when you were gamifying finances
that was fun that was that season of
life for you at a certain point your
season changes you got to turn the page
and embrace the season that you are in
and that's really hard for people to do
how much do you think of this is tied to
we don't know when we're gonna die
because if I knew I was going to die
when I'm 85 then I just run the math
I've got this much it'll run out no
you're a freak Nobody Does it like that
it's more about wouldn't they though if
they knew when they were gonna okay you
think they would here's the scenario
yeah you have received a terminal
illness notice you know that you have
five to ten years to live you know it
can we make it specific I know I have
seven years seven years to live cool so
now it's very specific this is a real
scenario okay you have seven years to
live
um you
have two daughters they're like nine and
ten years old you want to create
memories with them
but you're wondering if you should quit
your job
and spend time with them
what's the one bit of information you
need to know
how much money I have in savings and how
long it's going to last okay very good
your the amount of money you have is
about eight million dollars okay
seven years to live quit for sure okay
well I wouldn't because I love what I do
but I would certainly split time or
something so that I would have a
preponderance of time to spend with the
kids this is a real woman
who came to me on my podcast and her
question was should I quit my job wow
she had a double lung transplant
she has five to ten years left to live
she wants to create memories with her
daughters and
I'm listening to this and I go
what's keeping you at your job
and she said I like the steady income
that's the beginning of the conversation
now I can't just get in there and be
like look at this look at the math
here's the calculation this is
psychological we we go back to our
childhood and this is where most people
are more motivated they don't look
forward with their money I want them to
get there but first we need to look back
her mom
taught her certain lessons about money
caused her to worry about money she's
continued to worry about it and at a
certain point like you said those
grooves become really deep they become a
habit so when I ask people like what do
you get out of this they're worried like
what do you get out of this they go
nothing I go no no you get something
otherwise you wouldn't do it
often it gives them a sense of control a
sense of purpose so we're talking about
this and to me the most interesting part
of the conversation was she's
immunocompromised so she really has to
take care of her health when she travels
she doesn't want to go into restaurants
and things like that I said no problem
with that much money
you can hire a doctor to come with you
you can have an assistant clear the area
there's so many things you could do so
in this part of the conversation I asked
him what do you want to accomplish what
do you want to do with your family what
what messages do you want to share with
them in your time here and they
discussed uh taking a trip to somewhere
like Texas or Arizona or something like
that that sounds great how would you do
it and we had this 15-minute back and
forth about what they drive would they
fly well their immuno she's
immunocompromised and her husband piped
up and said what if we Charter a plane
remember she's got a few years left to
live time is of the essence then they
have plenty of money
and they talked about it and they talked
about it and in the end she goes well
that sounds really cool but of course
we're not going to do that
I was like wait what you have this
chance to go on a trip and she said well
you know we're just not the kind of
people who would Charter a plane
and so I share this because so many of
us think that if I just had enough money
and if I knew how much time I had left
then of course I would change my life
and my response to that is
um saving money is really important but
spending money is also important and
it's like a muscle and if you don't
exercise it and if you don't learn how
to spend on things that are meaningful
to you then you can accumulate a lot of
money over time but you won't actually
know how to use it
it's really interesting this is frame of
reference I'm the type of person that
right we're not the kind of people that
would Charter a plane
uh okay so I find that
very in line with what I know to be true
about humans
which brings me to
how money tears apart relationships
so one of the cool things about your
podcast is that you get people to come
on and talk about like the real stuff
that they argue about what are the
biggest Collision points for people in
relationships over money
it always starts with a very specific
incident
I remember one where
she went to Target
and she came home and his first question
was how much did it cost
and it just blew up into this fight
Target is a real flash point for people
it's like a there's a Target that's what
I said I've been to Target I grew up in
Suburbia you know there's all these
memes online about I went to Target to
spend 20 bucks and I walked out with 300
hahaha
I actually don't find it that funny
because as I talk to her because there's
no discipline no not not not for that
reason
because
your rich life cannot be going to a
random store to buy random commodities
and then declare that this is all I want
in life
there's got to be more to a rich life
than buying formula 409 because it needs
to be intentional it needs to be
meaningful so with this with this young
woman I asked her
like what do you what do you buy at
Target and her first answer was I buy I
buy clothes for my kids that's code for
I'm a good mom I said okay what else uh
you know things for supplies
okay fine
but she spent so much time talking about
Target
and I said tell me about you what is
your rich life and she was blocked it's
been so long since she thought about
herself that she didn't know what to do
and so we probed and I have a whole
process and she finally said you know
what I'd love to do I said tell me she
said I would love to get a massage once
a month just time alone
I said could you do it she's like oh no
no I can't do that I have kids
um you know I need to spend time Etc
I said what kind of message do you think
that you send your kids
now when you don't prioritize yourself
as well as you start tearing up
and I asked her why Target why do you go
there and when she was a kid her mom
used to take her there so this is often
rooted in childhood her mom would take
her there her mom would say what would
you like to buy she would get a treat
and so now she does the same thing with
her daughters the problem is she has
shrunk her rich life to a commodity
store now if she had told me like I love
camping so we go to REI and we go we get
camping stuff and we spend time great I
have nothing against big box stores
but it's this idea that she's just
buying random things which she herself
admits she doesn't remember later and
she shrunk her rich life to something
where she can't even give herself a
massage give order a massage I said what
if you were to go and once a month you
were to get a massage you were to spend
money on unapologetically and you were
to tell your daughters Mommy's going
to take care of herself she'll be back
in two hours what kind of message would
you send your daughters then and she
tears up again
money allows us to express our values on
a very tactical basis
if you believe you're generous show me
how much you tipped the last time you
went out to coffee if you believe you're
adventurous show me how much you spent
on an adventure in the last 60 days
so there are these phrase we use
generous adventurous spontaneous I like
to travel I love them you choose your
rich life
but our money and time is what can
actually reflect what our values are
okay so how does that end up like I want
to know where where the moments are of a
collision so people don't have Clarity
they haven't thought about their
richness okay is it when the rich life
is different for both of them yeah so
the biggest the biggest mistake that I
find with couples and it it's common
among many of them is they have no Rich
Life vision so they will come arguing
about you know I can't believe that he
spent 500 to do this car repair we
should have waited or I can't believe
she went to Target
and I'll ask him what is your rich life
and they're just like I don't know I you
know we want to take care of our kids
and we want to retire I go your kids are
two years old you went from two years
old to retirement what happens in
between so there's no shared Rich Life
vision and if you don't have a vision
it's easy to get lumped into the weeds
it's like you you had this vision of
this studio
if you didn't have this Vision it's just
like I want to make money make money am
I paying too much for this what about
that but if you have a vision it all
kind of crystallizes into everything I'm
doing is to make this
couples don't have that they rarely sit
down and talk about money another
Collision point is when they do talk
about money it's almost always reactive
it's a fight
so
98 of couples do not proactively talk
about money in my experience
it will be why'd you spend that or how
are we going to afford this
or some type of reaction but it's almost
never hey it's our monthly Rich Life
review let me compliment you on
something you compliment me let's take a
quick look at the numbers and let's talk
about what we're going to do because uh
when it comes to money
it's almost always a fight it's almost
always negative so in I in a monthly
Rich Life review I always started off by
saying something nice about the Partner
money related or just anything should be
money related so it would be something
like um you know babe I really
appreciate how whenever we travel
somewhere you always
book The Right seats and you make sure
that we have great flights and I
appreciate that about you
something that connects what they do
with money
and it's such a different way to talk
about money instead of why'd you spend
that much I can't believe you did that
if you haven't already be sure to
subscribe and until next time my friends
be legendary take care peace if you want
to learn how to build wealth with zero
money be sure to watch this episode with
jaspreet Singh everybody in America
should be a business owner however not
everybody should be in the business of
starting a company and not everybody
should be in the business of operating a
company