Kind: captions
Language: en
[Music]
what are the principles that you've
lived by that allowed you to go from
dropping out of high school broke
selling Flowers by the side of the road
to a net worth of 150 million dollars
for me it all comes down to this single
decision I made to drop out of high
school when I was 16 years old I grew up
in Queens New York uh very poor on
living on government cheese and taking
care of my mother who was obese which I
don't talk a ton a lot but it was very
heavy and the byproduct of dysfunction
and abuse which only became clear later
on so just born into dysfunction and
everything was about concealment
everything in my early days was about
making sure that nobody knew just how
poor I was just how desperate I was so
there's all this concealment was what I
was born into it takes a long time to
sort of shed that shame but and then
after years and years of realizing the
Cavalry wasn't coming
I had an epiphany and it was actually uh
born of watching my mother she took her
GED as an adult and went from having no
education to enrolling in Queens College
and she had a really Fierce mind and uh
for her education was about dignity but
as a kid it was around 13 14 I'm like
wait a second I saw an ad in a local
PennySaver newspaper and it said uh you
know deliver flyers for a congressman uh
you know be college students only but
you'd make eight bucks an hour the time
I was scraping gum at McDonald's making
375 or working in a deli overnight and I
was like what is it about this mythical
college student thing that makes you
make twice as much income I was like I
want to be a college student and I had a
thought why don't I do what my mother
did by accident but do it on purpose why
don't I drop out of high school and when
I excitedly told my guidance counselor
this plan like I gotta figure it out Mr
Barkin I'm gonna drop out of high school
get my GD in a role in Queens College at
16. and that you were [ __ ] I assume
yeah a [ __ ] this is why weren't you
though because that like if somebody
came to me and said hey Tom I'm thinking
about dropping out of high school
getting my GED even knowing your story
I'd be like that's a bad move right so
what's the principle that made that a
good move for you is it the burn the
boats idea or is it something I think
the burn the boats is the weight I I
stayed stayed the course the principle
is that
um convex conventional thinking is built
for the average story The regression to
the mean right whatever works for most
people our education system works for
most people when you have maybe two
parents or at least one functioning
parent right but but the world is set up
for the average situation and when you
are in in an outlier situation right you
need to take matters into your own hands
that was number one and the second
principle is trust your instincts don't
Outsource your judgment Mr Barkin and
everybody else thought it was absolutely
crazy uh and they were right to think it
was crazy but they didn't have the full
context of my life because I was
concealing everything when I presented
to Mr Barkin and the other people at
school they saw a kid who was pretty
well polished wearing jordish jeans back
then and but they didn't have the full
context so the the principle that I am
the greatest Undisputed expert they'll
ever be about myself holds true to this
day and we tend to look for confirmation
from experts confirmation from books on
Barnes and Noble or Ted Talks instead of
first Consulting yourself and my
instincts told me that that if your
mother's dying in the room next door and
you are thinking about crashing your car
into a tree half the time you know as
time went on that this decision makes
perfect sense but no one will ever
understand because they don't have the
context I think instincts are trained
most people and if you train them poorly
you're in real trouble if I had steered
by my instincts I think I would have
really LED myself astray a lot of times
in my life and so I
I am curious why at 16 how do you
develop self-awareness were you
processing through it the way that you
just explained it or like how do you
think about that because I've seen more
people go wrong on their instincts than
I've seen go right and I think we could
debate is there a difference between the
word Instinct and intuition intuition is
probably more of a proxy for pattern
recognition I would think at the end of
the day but whether we call it instincts
or intuition I do think there's a
difference between what our instincts
are telling us in a non-crisis situation
and what our instincts tell us in a
crisis situation I think we are are all
are all hardwired to survive and when
survival is on the line which at that
time survival really was on the line not
just myself but my mother I think our
instincts are our intuition are a strong
guide now normally agreed if I is
Instinct a word for impulse yeah very
different thing if I relied on my
impulses which sometimes I do they lead
me a strike that's interesting how do
you tease those two apart you know
you're relying on instincts when you're
in a crisis situation but two when there
when no other option make any sense like
when you have that Clarity I had such
Clarity that one my Intuition or
instincts told me my mother was going to
die eventually she was going to succumb
both to her depression but her obesity
right my instincts also told me that I
was going to spend the rest of my life
resenting her if I didn't take matters
into my own hands that there was no
institution that was going to help us
and at the four years I had to spend at
high school was too much time to waste
right I have to ascribe those to
instincts because it wasn't on the
internet it wasn't from counseling or
experts it was bubbling up but it all
bubbled up from the crisis situation of
recognizing that it's either do it's a
Do or Die moment harder to replicate
that Clarity when we're not in a crisis
as an entrepreneur as an investor that
vets entrepreneurs talk to me about the
moment where you realize nobody's coming
to save you
that's a principle for me that if I were
going to say okay there's a small
handful of things that led to my success
one of them is that I take
responsibility for everything it's all
my fault if I never point one finger at
anybody without pointing all 10 and
myself first
um
what what how what do you look for in
people how do you get them to take
responsibility why should they take
responsibility we're in a moment now
where that's very unfashionable it's
such a great point oh I'll take you back
in time to a conversation I had sitting
at the table with uh my mother right um
again uh dealing with all these
different health issues and our
relationship Dynamic was upside down I
was parentified as a young child and
anyone out there who's a caregiver knows
what I'm talking about when you're a
caregiver you're both anointed the
caregiver in a way you didn't uh you
didn't want but you're also led to
believe that uh you are a savior right
that you were born to do that that was
that was my situation that yeah that I
was I was groomed as the wrong word
because it sounds negative but that I I
was anointed as the caregiver and the
Savior and that became a lot of my
identity but my poor mother at the time
was always grappling with depression and
her weight and she wouldn't take matters
into her own hands she would I never
talked about this before uh
oh
so she would uh she would never get
surgery
for her knees and I would say if you
don't get surgery like you're gonna die
you can't you know you can't you can't
move
and uh I remember this conversation
where I would say what's a better way to
approach this life because she would say
you don't know what it's like to be
dying I'm like well I don't know if I
don't think you have to be dying I think
you can get your your knees replaced and
do something and then uh I remember
saying to her I had this Epiphany I'm no
longer going to view the world as things
happen to me I would rather see the
world as I happen to things but I also
had enough awareness and Defiance and
oppositional Behavior to say this is
unnatural and it's going to lead to bad
things if I don't speak up right it's
going to take Decades of therapy instead
of just years to unravel this so it was
in the context of me trying to reframe
her thinking of saying what's better
should I see myself as a victim or
should I see myself as an agent in my
own rescue so there's a point of saying
that don't mean to get emotional but uh
it's all still very raw is that
um that is the actual truth of the
universe that we happen to things that
we get the last word until our last
breath it's like a man's search
remaining right that and so when I say
to you instincts I agree I normally roll
my eyes when people say trust her it
stinks without Nuance but like where did
that come from that was instinctive and
it's only because the situation was so
desperate that I instinctively realized
the relationship is upside down it's
going to leave me with lots of scars but
two you're viewing the world as if you
have no agency and no power and that
does not ring true to me deep down you
know in my DNA I think that's one of the
most important principles for anybody
watching this hoping to understand how
to move forward if they disregard that
moment they're never going to make it
and this is the thing that drives me
crazy we were also talking about this
before we started rolling so long before
I had a show I had a thousand employees
that grow up hard as hell in the inner
cities and I had this like moment of oh
my God I can help you this is crazy like
I was meant for this moment I'm like I
have cobbled together like you so I took
myself from scrounging in my couch
cushions to find enough change to put
gas in my car to selling a company for a
billion dollars like even I like I get
the chills now when I think that's not a
story that actually happens sometimes
I'm like I think I'm making it up
so yes yeah yes because I've said it so
many times that I'll forget it's not a
catchy phrase I actually was like [ __ ] I
don't have enough money to go for a job
interview I don't have enough money to
put gas in my car to go to this job
interview what am I gonna do I was like
oh [ __ ] like there might be change now
admittedly gas prices were a lot lower
than they are now so I could actually
get enough gas money but when I look
back and I go okay wait I've never felt
special I've never thought like oh I'm
better than other people in fact my
story is the exact opposite I always
felt like solieri from
um Amadeus the movie so real real guy
and he was a contemporary of Mozart and
he in the movie anyway he laments to God
God why did you make me just good enough
to realize I'll never be as good as
Mozart and I heard that at 16 and was
like oh my God that sums up my whole
life why did you make me just smart
enough to realize I'll never be as smart
as my friends or I'll never be as smart
as the next business guy whatever and so
when I end up overcome doing that and I
realized oh it's just skill acquisition
I start just going crazy gobbling up
skills spending an obscene amount of
time pushing myself reading researching
all that so anyway I end up getting good
I'm in front of these employees and I'm
like oh my God like these ideas that
I've come together they will work for
you
but what I didn't realize at the time is
98 obviously that's a rough number just
they're never going to point all 10
fingers at themselves they're never
going to do the work like they they they
don't have what I call the only belief
that matters the only belief that
matters is if you put time and energy
into getting better at something you
will actually get better and if that is
true to your mom to you to me to
everybody it's like oh I can address my
knees and I can actually get moving and
I could lose weight my life could be
different oh I could go to college and
end up teaching at Harvard which is
crazy if people don't know that part of
your story my question is like
you have lived the thing that wounds me
the deepest which is that the there are
people that I love
an unimaginable amount and they won't do
anything with the ideas and I'm watching
them do a slower version of what you
watched your mom do how do you deal with
that because that really messes with me
yeah that's hard I mean this book is my
attempt to make the case that it is
possible that like you just said I'm not
extraordinary I was in extraordinary
circumstances and so and was able to
open a portal to another world about
what happens when you go all in with
with complete surrender but I have the
same feelings you do the ideas are there
why don't you do it you know why why
won't you just implement it I think I
wrote a book to try to achieve it you
should write a book too
yeah we'll see so burn the boats giving
yourself over to your plan A
talk to me about that because it so I
often tell people I'm not a burn the
boats guy now I've read your book so I
actually do completely subscribe to the
way that you talk about it but give us
the nuanced make the case the nuanced
case in a nutshell that you make in the
books is pretty competitive okay good
all right no I love it the burn the
boats is a bit of a trojan horse right
so you know some people who get
frustrated they pick it up they expect a
certain thing and it's totally another
as you pointed out it's not the
bombastic it's not called burn the boats
with you in it or it's not called burn
the boats into hell with everyone else
this book is written for the 48 of
people if you went on a trained platform
this is actually true from a study and
so do you have a plan a 48 would say yes
the other you know 40 are lying most
people do right this book is written for
The Angst ridden anxiety-laden risk
adverse people who I believe need it
more than anyone else not the
self-possessed so the Nuance of burn the
boats and we all I don't have to revisit
the ancient you know theory of we
perform best when we Have No Escape
right but the the boat in my book is
meant to be a child's boat floating in a
bathtub that you set fire to because the
metaphorical boats that many of us have
to burn begin with childhood and Legacy
issues right I think it is worth telling
people where that ancient okay all right
let's tell it okay so this is actually
fascinating uh Cortez in 1519 a lot of
people know the Cortez story very bad
man uh bird the boats while taking on
the Aztecs and was able to uh win that
battle by literally eliminating the
boats the Escape Route and eliminating
food Provisions I'm more fascinated by
as I started researching this book that
if you go back to the beginning of
recorded history every culture in every
Century has a fabled military General
and the way they were to overcome
insurmountable odds was to literally
eliminate their escape boats in a lot of
cases Bridges sometimes and destroy
their food Provisions there's a story in
207 BC China same exact thing they even
have a word for it in Chinese for burn
the boats
um and Alexander the Great Caesar uh
ancient Israelites so I was like why is
it that military leaders intuitively
understand that we in peace time in
modern day don't accept that the idea
the way to be successful is to actually
eliminate choice
so I started looking at the Sciences
well maybe this doesn't hold true in
peace time maybe this is an outdated
concept we're too evolved and we don't
need to burn the boats anymore we need
to like mend the bridges or something or
whatever it is and as a study in 2014 at
A Wharton which is fascinating they
tried to identify what is the Insidious
impact of not having a plan B but
actually contemplating a plan B and what
they found in this study the methodology
so yeah they give permission to the
students and said
by the way if you just want to think of
another way to get a snack or whatever
the hell it was right like you can think
about it and what they found were two
interesting things one the the group
that was allowed to just contemplate a
plan B was statistically much less
likely to be successful but more
importantly the second part is what I
was most interested they were less
interested in plan a anymore they had
they had lost intrinsic motion
motivation to achieve it so my book is
an attempt to make the case with that
data and going back in time it is one
thousand percent true that the only way
to achieve extraordinary things is if
you don't have a plan B but now we have
to get into definitions because this is
where the objections come
but Matt I have to pay the bills or I
can't afford risk you're a rich white
guy you know like you don't understand
what it's like plan a and this is why I
say I'm the most paranoid risk taker you
ever made plan a 1 000 contemplates your
mitigation strategy for when it might
not work out the difference is you
contemplated at the beginning of the
journey whenever I do anything hard I'm
sure you do the same thing I ask myself
what's the worst thing that could happen
because I catastrophize going back to my
childhood trauma I absolutely I embrace
that what's the worst thing that could
happen what would I do if the worst
thing that could happen back to that
crisis mentality that we're all wired
with I 100 have within me at this moment
the ability to mitigate any big decision
I try to make without even a moment's
thought if I ask the question get the
other job go back to working for bill
whatever I got to do right three what's
the statistical what's the likelihood
that I could forecast at the
catastrophizing that I've just thought
about is likely to material as usually
the answer is infinitesimally small at
the end of the day and then four and
I'll talk about this in the context of
Harvard what wouldn't I do to walk into
that classroom as a kid from Queens who
had dropped out of high school and teach
it like takes my breath away when I
think about what I wouldn't do to make
this book successful and help people and
the answer is I would come within an
inch of my life for most of my literally
I got covered double pneumonia when I
when I did my IPO 30 days with asimeters
on both fingers like I would I would
almost die to achieve the things I
really care about compare that against
the low probability that the bad thing's
going to happen if plant a doesn't work
out it's so small so point of saying
this is my book is nuanced it's going to
disappoint anybody who wants life to be
about you know to hell with everybody
else it talks about empathy
self-awareness and but the most
important point my boat is a metaphor
for the internal and external things
that prevent us from from fully
committing you were talking about that
it's a child's boat yeah and why I find
the greatest Arbitrage entirely within
our control is self-awareness right and
when I'm assessing a leader that I
believe under indexes on self-awareness
when I try to identify why why are they
afraid to look within why are they why
one are they blaming others or worse why
do they believe they don't have the
power to make change or worse why do
they feel not accountable
there's something blocking their
willingness to look at themselves and I
find more than not this could be
confirmation bias that the answer is a
legacy issue I I'll tell you one fact
Packer and I find a lot with Founders
they're living someone else's life to
seek the approval that they can never
get the father who always wanted them to
be an entrepreneur or this like this
this elusive approval that they're
seeking that they can ever get maybe
they have a partner of the Foxhole who
is their front of me who's pulling them
down to earth when they should be
releasing them right they're all these
issues so it's either Legacy issues or
psychological issues I find are the
reasons that hold people back from being
self-aware and the hardest ones are
those childhoods Legacy stop you from
being self-aware because look let's look
at mine you were talking to me about my
mother and within five minutes I'm like
having I'm getting emotional which I
regret at this moment if you're carrying
something that well let's just call that
overall thing shame because that's where
shame prevents you for wanting to be
seen disclosure if you have shameful
Legacy issues or frustration with
yourself you don't want to face them and
so that makes you not want to be
self-aware you want all the answers to
be external and not to be internal
man so I know uh you've said I've
debated getting a tattoo for 40 plus
years of my life but if I was going to
get a tattoo it would say face
everything yeah what do you mean by that
that's uh you just mentioned people
don't want to face themselves I wrote my
book so I'd read my book it's the number
again I asked to Rick the hell out of my
life like everyone listening I I think I
have a lot of insights I don't always
Implement them which we don't
acknowledge at our level I feel like
enough but the number one answer to
everything if is face everything
and yet it's if I had a tattooed on my
chest so I would see it in the Mirror by
myself but it is the number one
self-talk that I give the answer is to
face everything that most of the anxiety
that we all carry is anticipation of
what would happen if we Face something
whereas you can make that anxiety go
away if you just faced it that's
interesting so I have a idea which I
think is actually the same idea that I
encapsulate as action cures all and what
I'm trying to get people to understand
all that anxiety all that worry it will
go away if you start taking action now
hiding saying that is yeah you have to
face it so that you can take action but
the idea is to get busy solving the
problem and I don't know how much you
know about Andrew huberman and the you
can reprogram somebody's Thinking by
getting them to move their eyes
laterally and the reason he hypothesizes
and this makes a ton of sense to doing
it now is that yeah feel better is that
when you move forward your eyes are
constantly scanning to the sides to keep
you moving on your path so it is the
thing that we do when we are moving
forward and so you're giving the brain
the subtle signal that I'm moving
towards this I'm dealing with this and
so there's a sense of like lowering of
the anxiety which a hundred percent I
experience every time I'm like really
concerned about something I'm like if I
just start building out a plan and going
and attacking this I'm going to change
my neurochemistry guaranteed 100
and it's the one thing to your point
that people don't end up doing like they
never turn and face it because it there
isn't there's the most friction right
before you break through and are like oh
no I'm dealing with it and everything's
going down because you don't want to
look at it you don't want to deal with
ah but we're also not taught that
principle right like I love the way you
just framed it it is right on the
precipice is when it's most painful and
then you cross a threshold and then you
feel the relief and I think there's a
sub Point why it brings such peace is
because anything that you could do that
could zoom you into the present is going
to make you happier full stop right so
for some people that could be meditating
it might be a walk in the park nature
play with my kids and then anticipation
of of the thing that which we haven't
faced takes you out of the present
brings you into the future where it's
not a happy place to be so I think it's
both the piece of just relieving of the
anxiety but it's also one less thing
that's taking you out of the present
that's interesting I don't think about
it as being
about the present though meditation for
me is really profound why do you think
so here's when people talk about being
in the present when you're meditating
here is how I've used that to work for
me and is this what you mean the truth
is hitting your career goals is not easy
you have to be willing to go the extra
mile to stand out and do hard things
better than anybody else but there are
10 steps I want to take you through that
will 100x your efficiency so you can
crush your goals and get back more time
into your day you'll not only get
control of your time you'll learn how to
use that momentum to take on your next
big goal to help you do this I've
created a list of the 10 most impactful
things that any High achiever needs to
dominate and you can download it for
free by clicking the link in today's
description alright my friend back to
today's episode so when I focus on my
breathing it it just occupies my mind
and so it doesn't let my mind drift like
for me even listening to the sound of
rain will help which I do a lot lot will
help ground me to just there's a thing
happening in my brain so my brain isn't
wandering as much it's very interesting
yep same point the only the only
difference here is that there's a
negative which is preventing the ability
to hear the rain or listen to the breath
which is the preoccupation with that
which we haven't faced so it's just to
me it becomes an impediment to zooming
you into the moment but same exact point
you know it's it's I just think it's not
just about facing the thing that you
haven't faced it's about the obstacle to
bringing you back to the moment so what
is the value in being present is it so
that you can deal with it or is it a
neurochemical shift that just stops your
mind from spiraling out of control I
just think present is the only truth and
so when you reconnect intellectually
neurochemically with the only truth the
only thing we're given and granted
there's a lot of peace I mean I I have
an app in my phone which is my kids
think I'm crazy but after I had cancer
actually let me tell you a little bit
backstory I had testicular cancer when I
was 32 years old and what I found after
after going through the fear that I
might die I I connected with this idea
of zero time that all I would sit in my
car because I didn't know where to go
and I hadn't gotten the diagna full
diagnosis they thought I was a later
stage cancer and I was like okay I don't
the New York Times real estate section
doesn't resonate anymore because I'll be
dead before I can buy The Brownstone
like all my thoughts don't hold up to
the prospect of imminent death and yet
we walk around all day with that
Prospect and once I
um knew that I wouldn't die I had to go
through you know surgery and lots of and
I still carry a lot of the consequences
of of being a Survivor but I wasn't
going to die I began to savor the
experience to be honest I began to enjoy
the fact that something brought me into
this moment to such an extent and I've
tried to hold on to that my entire life
okay so I want to differentiate between
being in the moment during meditation
which is like literally I'm here with my
breath right and being in the moment
that I don't have years and so now I'm
thinking very differently these feel
like two very different they do they do
but similar outcome and they're sort of
corollary they're cousins maybe that the
um the awareness let's talk about face
everything we are afraid to face our own
mortality we don't know why we're here
we don't know where we're going a lot of
people are at least and I think our
relationship with it is inverted which I
didn't realize until I thought I might
die that actually contemplating our more
mortality a lot relieved me of caring
about the future anticipation the things
that were taking me away from the moment
from the from the from the from the
present and I started going deeper into
like why is that and then you read the
happiest people on Arthur and Bhutan
they contemplate their mortality five
times a day
and so I have an app on my phone called
we croak that in throughout the course
of the day is reminding me in very
lyrical beautiful ways you know
Descartes Socrates that Matt you are in
fact gonna die and what it does it zooms
me back in to the moment so slightly
different but similar that I think that
the happiest place that you can spend
your time is here now with you it's
really interesting I'm gonna make a
hypothesis okay tell me if you think
this is true so I try for a long time
the thing that was most beneficial to me
was to think about living forever
and that got me really motivated there's
a book called Einstein's dreams and
every it's a bunch of short stories and
all the short stories are about time and
one of them is a world where you live
forever and in that story everybody
bifurcates into one of two kinds of
people people that do nothing because
there's always time to do it later and
people that do everything because now
the statement that haunts my dreams is
no longer true which is that you can be
anything you want but not everything and
so I very much fall into that second
Camp of if I could live forever I would
do everything I'm like oh my God these
skills are going to stack and stack and
stack and stack and stack it's living
forever is as close as you could get to
a superpower just because you could get
good at so many things and so for a long
time that was my meditation no you might
live forever go as fast as you can
acquire as many skills as you can you
could do it all and it was really
motivating and then somewhere in my
mid-40s that started to feel like it
wasn't the right way to think about it
and so then I started to think about
okay
as of today you're not going to live
forever
but it it's interesting I get why you're
calling it putting me in the moment but
here's what I did this is my hypothesis
the reason that dying is so cathartic
for so many people the especially if you
come out the other side and you don't
actually die that thinking you're about
to die is so cathartic Jim Carrey has a
whole story about being in Hawaii when
the the missiles are coming in nuclear
missile strike on its way this is not a
drill that whole thing and he was like
well I guess this is it and he said he's
been able to carry that idea with him
forward the reason I think that that is
so effective for people
is you no longer have to give a [ __ ]
about what other people think now every
um theory is autobiographical so that
clearly is the thing for me but the idea
of like because I think we're all the
shout and the echo I don't think there
is a way like the shout is the things
you do and The Echoes what people tell
you about the thing that you did I don't
think there's a way to to get away from
that I doubt even monks are completely
abstracted from that I'm sure they care
about what other monks think whether
they want to say they do or not it'll be
off-brand though yeah yeah very true but
nonetheless probably true uh what do you
think about that oh it's a lot to unpack
I I think for me why it brings relief
and peace is exactly what you said about
you stop caring what other people think
which is similar to also stop worrying
about outcomes and to the extent to
which they judge I wondered if that's
what we meant about Legacy yeah yeah
like I think I think back to death for
half a second like when you when you one
number one it's technically true we're
facing the prospect of imminent death
right we don't know when so it's
actually true right no conjecture about
that uh could be when I walk out this
door right and the second thing is I
know that if I were to to take go back
into that moment with a reasonable
degree of certainty I'll probably regret
all the things I cared about that just
did not matter and so reminding myself
tries to make me not not tries to make
me um ameliorate that future regret
right or to mitigate that future regret
in the very end the moment so it's you
know very convoluted but that's why I
think it brings me at least uh peace
have you been able to hang on to that
because that was yeah no unfortunately
because here's why when I went through
cancer and I had these wonderful
epiphanies that's completely impractical
to implement but but theoretically true
I was like wait a second though I like
you I'm motivated by the pursuit of
excellence and if I eliminate if I'm no
longer vested in the system because it
turns out I may die in 15 minutes what's
going to motivate me to do what you were
I'm going to accumulate skills I'm going
to learn everything like if
theoretically it could be over very soon
you know I was very nihilistic view
right like how will I be great and then
but then I did realize there is another
motivational system which is the attempt
to figure out what is my what anomalies
what are my purpose here on Earth but
what is the total capacity I was granted
let me touch the ceiling of my capacity
of my potential and that motivates me
just as much as this vesting in the
system right I gotta get a better job
Prestige money I can achieve the same
degree of success by wanting to touch
the ceiling of my potential or my
capacity at that moment so I don't
understand so if time is now super
finite yes and let's say you're like oh
no what do I care what's the matter well
it's my it's my answer to my mind saying
well if mortalityism is a is our death
is imminent or could be then what makes
me vested in showing up today or caring
or giving a great presentation but I
think for me at least I'm just as you
want to perform like an athlete on the
field I want to see how well
I think that brings me close to God like
oh what I mean if we're all made in his
or her image whatever that may be on a
particularly religious but spiritual
that knowing what what I'm capable of
feels like I'm I I'm closer to the
origin or wherever whoever put me on
this earth right so it's that to me is
just as motivating let me see what I get
let me see if I can write this book let
me see if I can touch people if I can
move people let me see what happens and
what do you think now that you have kids
is it a different game for you
yeah yeah I assume you did not have kids
at that point I just had had a kid
yeah it was three months old oh yeah
that is that didn't require that that
that made a quick reframing instantly
that's all I desperately wanted to do
was be there for the handoff whatever
the handoff is did you like end up
writing letters or anything too I I I I
didn't because fortunately it was a
relatively short period of time when I
thought like I could die to like
statistically I'm a big statistics
person I was like yeah this cohort
probably a waste of ink I also didn't
want to put me in the group that writes
a letter to their kid because then I
thought maybe then I'll be in that death
core plan B yeah
but but uh but when a live Plan B
document yeah it did do one thing which
I would encourage everyone to do it did
clarify me saying what do I want my
Epitaph to read and work backwards and
now what did you want it to read yeah
that was the that was the video I want
to know oh
herein lies a great dad who did the best
he could I really and again you don't
get a lot of words on Epitaph so it's
kind of effective I wish I could have
sub subtitles and he also changed the
world and but like it really I think and
I think everyone feels that way but for
me it was partly to break the pattern I
wanted to break the pattern like like I
felt like if I could just it wasn't just
a good me it was it was a pleading with
God or the universe like let me get this
right please so that I don't you know
carry on because all the patterns that
we're subjected to were either repeating
them or were or we're doing the opposite
of them creating their own new bad
patterns so it was sort of a bargaining
with the universe like please like let
me get this right but when it's all said
and done and that was only because I had
I obviously had kids if you don't have
kids you're not you don't understand how
powerful that is yeah I can only imagine
but even even though I don't have kids I
get like that sense of
what that would be like to want to leave
something for them to want to do well
for somebody else in fact that is the
thing I understand so well that I get
how that would be dialed too that's your
amazing relationship I love reading
exactly what you talk about with your
relationship with your wife and then and
you're not a lot of people talk about
the importance of partnership and as a
force multiplier and this book doesn't
exist without my wife my show doesn't
exist without my wife which you make
very clear in the book by the way which
is definitely one of the things that I
want to talk to you okay but the the
idea of
wanting to do well for somebody else I'm
wired for that whether I should be or
not is a different story but again going
back to the idea of every theory is
autobiographical I always tell people
you whatever you're going to pursue if
you want to get through it you're going
to have to
find a way to connect it to serving
other people like if you don't I think
it's as close to Universal as you're
going to get but saying that I'm doing
this thing for me can be very motivating
but saying that I'm doing the same for
somebody else like is for me anyway is
just unbelievably powerful it's
interesting I'd never thought about why
do I feel so like I get it so much when
parents are like yo for my kid I would
do anything that's why do you think were
you always that way were you that way in
your 20s I've been that way since I was
a little kid one of my earliest memories
is throwing a Easter egg hunt so my
sister who's four years older than me
could win that was five or six and I was
like I know how much this will mean to
her and so I'm gonna not I'm gonna
pretend I don't see that egg and make
sure that she finds it so yeah I have
been I'm wired for that I think we're 50
hardwired and 50 malleable I was gonna
say I actually don't think that everyone
is wired that way definitely not I think
there's a certain percentage that are
sociopaths there's a cousin named
narcissist you know what I mean like and
that's been a hard thing is to retain my
empathy uh which I think is my gift been
hard no not hard wrong word it's not
hard I'm defense I'm protective of it
it's to operate in a world where you
allow your empathy to flow freely but
also protect yourself and be committed
to self-defense but at the same time I
like I never hold grudges for example
because I don't want to let somebody be
able to take away my empathy but I am
capable of making sure I beat you to a
draw and then I'll let the empathy flow
again really interesting so we're gonna
have to give people a little bit more of
your backstory so you are an
extraordinarily accomplished investor
and entrepreneur been on Shark Tank as a
shark
um invested in a lot of amazing things
including vaynermedia for people that
know garyvee you were his first client
essentially owned a piece of the company
um so some really big wins
that is normally associated with
somebody who's a little Sinister they're
not afraid to step on people
um how have you been able to be
successful be a shark he's literally
called Shark uh to be a shark and
maintain that sense of not only
Integrity but empathy yeah great
question uh the answer is I'd probably
be more successful if I had less of it
maybe that's the honest answer right
like I am not a sociopath and I do care
um I I think you if you if you marry
empathy with the intellect and pattern
recognition I think you can go pretty
damn far in life and the the uh empathy
unlocks a ton of value I always say when
I look back at this crazy story of me uh
post cancer I don't think I told you the
story when I had cancer
um and I was 32 years old my number one
concern was not not dying not right away
at least was not having one testicle it
was not even whether I would be
infertile it was it was whether I would
be picked apart by the villains who are
waiting for me to be finally shot my
weakness I get it I mean I was nuts
looking back so nuts that after I was
diagnosed you you go real fast they want
that tumor out of your body because they
think it's spread to your to your lymph
nodes and whatnot I had it within 24
hours surgery it's like well can I can I
say goodbye diagnosis diagnosis to
removing my right testicle that's not a
long time to say goodbye to like a
pretty important one it's not a
particularly attractive body part but I
was still like can I sit with this
decision for half a minute
and then 48 hours later within 48 hours
I was like how do I show everybody that
I'm not defeated
and there was a dinner for all the
coaches at the Jazz Eric Mancini was at
the time you and I have a very different
reaction to this story yeah very eager
for you to tell people okay all right so
I'm curious to hear your reaction so I I
um I I show up at this dinner and
everyone's having wine and I sit at the
table I have an ice bag in between my
groin right like clear that I have just
been operating on
and I'm like showing them how tough I am
and I have a little toast to everybody
let me tell you what my new motto is
that I'm soon to put on dog tags and it
says half the balls twice the man
the 32 year old version of me thinks
that that's cool and tough but before I
say my interpretation of that story I
want to hear your interpretation of my
story well so I know your punch line
okay uh but act like you don't and feel
free to judge I don't mind no no no no
judgment it's ah it may say something
more about me than it says about you so
uh I'll give people your idea because I
think it's better that they hear that
first
so you realize hey this is cringy and
when I show up moments after surgery it
sends a message to everybody else I
don't give a [ __ ] what you're going
through you better show up and you
better do your thing and I get that and
I try to be very protective that my team
feels like hey if you need time take
that time we're here to protect you we
use that language here it's sacred
you're we just had somebody their mom
fell broke their hip in the hospital
they had to fly back to their home
country deal with it I was like we got
you like do not worry about a thing we
are on it we will take care of you it
could be any one of our moms the next
time and I want you to protect me but I
love that hardcore [ __ ] so much like I
love that you showed up now if you
expected other people to do that I would
be grossed out but the fact that you
want to do it for yourself the fact that
you were like I'm not gonna let this
beat me all of that resonates with me
still and I'm not I can't you know claim
Youth and that's what I like but I I I
so I think let's meet in the middle
because I don't disagree with you let's
talk about Behavior that's changed in
Behavior that's not changed so for those
listening my 30 year old version of me
thought that that was like you know so
tough right but the with a little bit
more perspective and this only occurred
to me when I went to my own divorce
right I realized Not only was I
expecting me to show up with one
testicle on an ice pack the next day I
was not understanding why everyone
wouldn't want to show up right like
surrender to the mission the the when I
went through my own trauma that was much
more significant than than cancer
um I realized I have been ignoring or
overlooking or you know basically
deciding that it's not that big a deal
everyone's trauma and expecting
generally the same that I that the
behavior that I was modeling and that's
not reasonable it's not fair and it's
not good leadership however what I
haven't changed
is I still put myself through tremendous
arrest to achieve great things when I
teach uh when I taught at Harvard uh
business school you know three weeks ago
I was going through something really
tough on the home front right and I had
a choice to make do I succumb to that do
I not teach this class that I've worked
on for almost a year and do I but I have
to show up for the family situation do I
not do that and then I was like oh
there's a third choice I will stay up
for four days straight good like
literally I'm gonna try to an hour here
hour there I will put myself to the
brink and that's my choice and I so I
don't deny myself the right to make that
choice when I'm trying to do really hard
extraordinary things but I make sure
that I I that I do the best I can not to
model that behavior not to so the way
you just said about one of your
employees I was going through uh loss of
a family member right like and you went
out of your way to say it's okay like I
try to do that to the best of my ability
and I wouldn't have done that at 32.
that's the difference it's very
interesting so the only difference I
would say too is the last point I think
anybody objectively watching me go ahead
and show up at that dinner two days
later would understand stand that that
behavior is born out of dysfunction that
has unregulated Behavior it's such an
outlier I don't think that there's
anything proud about you know I don't
know what to do with that I'm sorry I
don't mean to challenge your whole idea
I love it because I I work non-stop on
this book like it's not that I'm not
crazy about my work effort it's just
some things just don't really make sense
no I love it and I I love encountering
people that don't think the way that I
think so I will keep exploring the edges
of this so
um I think it's very important to make
other people feel like the choice that
they need to make is a hundred percent
like make it so my wife taught me this
uh in that she just her body cannot
handle the amount of stress that my body
can and so for her she'll start getting
sick if she tried to match me hour for
hour she'd get sick and my wife's sister
or what did I started crying she's like
I can't get up at four yeah I'd be like
come on babe like let's go let's do math
I should be like please yeah I can't do
it and so at that moment a dick if
you're like come on come on everyone you
know right not fun not cool no respect
for that whatsoever but at the same time
I want to see if he's here he is here so
that guy right there uh came to me one
day and he said I want to be the CEO of
impact Theory one day and I was like
don't say that if you don't mean it and
he's like no for real I was like okay so
uh let me tell you uh I'll treat you the
way I treat myself and I'm not gonna
hold anybody else without Sandra because
they did not come to me and say that
they want to be the CEO okay uh and
I love it I love talking to him more
than anybody else because I can just be
like yo [ __ ] what are you doing
like you need to get going and he he has
a phrase that he took from Goggins who
were talking about before this and
Goggins has carry the boats right now
I've said many I love Goggins I'm
inspired by goggles I don't want to be
Goggins but I want to have that gear and
so being able to talk to him and push
him in that way and see him like yeah
yeah I do love it but I am very aware
that the
it was Alex hermosi I don't know where
he got it so I always credit him okay
but he said there are three qualities
that make somebody successful
an undying belief that you can do
something great agreed a terrifying fear
that you're not worthy agreed and the
ability to delay gratification I totally
agree I was like oh my God
it's so funny because I always say like
when I was going through something
really bad on the personal front and I
was overweight whatever I trained for a
marathon in my basement and I would only
train on a treadmill in the dark and I
would stare at a red light on the on the
wall for months that's how I turn
because you didn't want people to see no
because I was trying to to get a
different muscle which is the ability to
persevere through something with
repetitive motion but I'm always
manifesting through power through
something you can't power through a
marathon you'll burn out so it was like
practicing you know that level of
deferred gratification and and then that
that patience muscle that maybe doesn't
come totally naturally but I like all
three of those I agree yeah I mean I
hate the second one but when I think
about the reality is that still true for
you the second one a hundred percent
it does and you're the first person I've
heard talk about it in the book where
you said I I don't know about you guys
but I make progress and I regress yeah
and so I talk about this in itu a lot uh
which is hey everybody I've never been
able to get rid of the negative voice so
I've learned not to death loop on it so
I can't stop the first thought it's
gonna arise whether I wanted to or not
but I can stop myself from indulging in
that like you're never gonna do what you
want and all that just I talk about that
in the um in the book too I I bet you
can relate to this I think a lot of the
packaging on Instagram this is the first
of all there's a there's a we're over
waiting now anybody who's gone through
like Crisis and re-emerge Like a Phoenix
and but it actually reinforces a myth
because if you are telegraphing to the
world I have figured it out and I went
through a bad thing like you did now I
figured it out but you don't share the
regression most people can't relate to
that so they're appreciative of the
answers to the test you care about
people being able to relate to it I do I
just care what's true no I I I care I
don't want to be robbed of my origin
story I don't want to manifest in the
world as a guy on shark what if it was
all of that your whole origin story all
but people can relate and they can only
relate to natural talent and they're
like I don't I don't even understand
this guy like I haven't been born it was
like it's like a death sentence it's
like it feels you know why it's useless
that would mean if they can't relate yes
that would mean my whole thing I think
is objectively useless if people can't
find a point of intersection and join me
okay help me break through them so here
I I said I don't think it's useful to me
it's just I just think it's useless in
terms of a higher order to things right
like I can't do anything more with my
story than other than self enrichment
it's interesting so you have a base
assumption that if people can't relate
to you they're never going to take your
advice
um that's a great question I do think
Authority matters I think like these
nice brands that I've collected Shark
Tank right I'm at HBS like they they
matter because they give me presumed
Authority but to me that's the
usefulness of those things you know writ
large right but I I do think that people
are looking for reasons to say yeah but
yeah I can't and so I won't ever really
break true breakthrough if they can't
find a place to intersect and I don't
have it doesn't have to be factual
intersection it has to be emotional and
spiritual like you maybe you can't
relate to the idea that a guy drops out
of high school at 16 self-possessed
enough to know to do that ends up in
these terrible situations but you can
relate to somebody who had to overcome
imposter syndrome or you know what I
mean you know life brings them to those
things anyone can relate to and what I'm
most proud with the book at the moment
is the extent to which every
socioeconomic demographic has reached
out to me that's hard to do where you
when you're at where I'm at so I think I
got that right but yeah I would I would
I just keep thinking in terms of utility
of my life be on myself and if if people
can't connect and intersect then it just
doesn't have as much utility and I don't
want to manufacture it but the stuff I
put in a book is you could say it's not
manufactured it's it's painful and uh
and people are now joining me on the
journey
it's interesting I may just be blind to
the fact that I respond more to being
able to relate to people than I think
the reason I like your book isn't
because I can relate to it though I can
the reason that I respond to your book
is my [ __ ] meter pegs so fast with
people that the reason so I used to only
interview people like you uh which I'll
call in the empowering Camp it's it
tactics principles to live by it's going
to make your life better which I can
vouch for 100 your book you everything
like it's all that and people should
dive in if that's what they care about
but I stopped interviewing just that
because so many people are full of [ __ ]
and so the reason that I like your book
I think isn't because I found it
relatable it's because the advice is
actually real and if people take your
advice whether they can relate to you or
not it will make their life better this
is interesting I'm discovering something
about myself I'm going to keep going for
a second so I have an allergic reaction
to the moment that we're living in right
now where people are like like
yeah like it's okay blame the world like
this has happened to me and I that makes
me so angry because it won't [ __ ]
help you that's like a lot of help even
if it were true so I was
um giving a talk at Google of all places
and an African-American in front row so
Tom do you think things are going to be
harder for me because I'm black and I
was like yes almost certainly but now
what
and so you can be angry you can blame
people or I think there's only two
options you can go try to change the
system Martin Luther King or you can get
so [ __ ] good that no one can stop you
Kobe Bryant and it's like those are your
choices and I have an allergic reaction
to people that aren't interested in
doing one of those two things
totally agree my reaction is both
allergic and a little bit empathetic and
the reason why having been in politics
before my early like Republicans and
Democrats are like cousins you know like
one one genetic strand difference
between the two I think I have a cynical
view of it all but I think actually the
those people who have chosen to adopt
the victim narrative
um through every spectrum of type of
individual background they're being sold
something that won't help them and I
feel like you're actually being
manipulated with that narrative I I has
it's it's it's an attempt to to change
the sub subject to make you look away
and to make you not try to be honest
with you like generally but at the same
time I do think I tried hard in my book
it's back to connecting with different
individuals on a first pass of somebody
reading it a woman had read it and she's
from an immigrant family and she said I
love your book and I and I and I I love
so much about it the only thing I kept
finding when I was reading I was like
but I don't quite see me in it and I was
like really why and then she's like
because at the end of the day you were a
white male in this society and of course
I first react like but wait I was
dropped in high school I was poor I went
through all the stuff and then as I sat
with it I thought you know what if I was
from a different demographic a minority
group right the act of of dropping out
getting a GED might to have to a racist
seem confirmatory and the act of me you
know growing up with a degree of
privilege is Aboriginal right and that
somebody would look harder at my story
to find the why and then I became
obsessed with I need to to to show who's
ever reading this book from whatever
demographic that I see you and I
acknowledge you you know without whether
or not this victim doesn't come into it
right it's just that I see you and I
hear you and I tell the story in the
book which I love at the end of one of
my classes at Harvard I was talking to
uh to uh um two black women and they
were talking about one of the speakers I
had who used a lot of profanity in the
class and they said it was amazing
conversation and she goes her name was
Tracy she goes you know I could never
say that in this class I was like why
and she goes because if I did
everybody would instantly judge me and
conclude that I'm I'm only here for
whatever reason but more importantly I'm
ruining it for everyone that comes comes
after me every black woman who walks
into this classroom now because it will
be judged by my behavior and I was like
that's unbelievable and I chose to put
that in the story because I thought that
is undeniable proof that I had an
advantage even getting government she's
being a poor kid I'd undeniable
Advantage because I don't represent
anybody but Matt Higgins and if you come
from a minority group you carry the
weight and the burden of everybody who
comes you know after you so but now what
no seriously you're so the reason why
people take you is not because you sold
a billion dollar company it's not it's
not anything it's because you drip
empathy and Humanity like it's like I
don't know if it's a God complex or what
but like honestly no but it it is not in
a positive way because I feel like
somebody put you on this Earth but like
it exudes you it's why I got emotional
talking about my mother like you create
this safe space and you only deliver in
the facts the now what I think is the
book is the burn the boats but if people
can't see themselves or can't join me
I'm saying this to you to say everybody
can join you because of your empathy
that that radiates through all your
content like you really give a [ __ ] that
is very true
the so I
react
very strongly
there's two my wife will she'll she will
vouch for this there are two reactions
when someone hurts themselves oh my God
are you okay and hey be careful what the
[ __ ] are you doing I am very much that
hey be careful what the [ __ ] are you
doing so when I see someone I love hurt
themselves I'm just like yo there is a
solution stop smashing yourself in the
hand with a hammer
and I I I it upsets me so much to watch
people struggle like I hate that so much
I want to see everyone win and I have
wasted so much of my life trying to help
people help you and I say wasted because
some people just aren't going to do it
but what I
what I really want people to hear
uh it doesn't if if you meet minimum
requirements intellectually
which unfortunately exists but if you're
listening to this show and you've made
it this far I guarantee you meet minimum
requirements intellectually
but once you meet that
the world is stacked against some people
way more than others Yeah a hundred
percent I'm just begging you take Kobe
Bryant's advice booze don't block dunks
no matter how much people may have hated
Kobe no matter how the best Scouts in
the world were paid millions of dollars
to go around the world and find people
that could stop him from scoring baskets
they trained athletes five of them to be
on a court at a time with their sole
mission of stopping him from scoring
points and just and fans in the crowds
booing like crazy going nuts despite all
of that that man scored 81 points in a
single game there are games that only
score 80 some points and so that that is
so inspiring to me that oh wait there
are a set of skills that I could acquire
that would let me get so good at
something people can't stop me from
winning they can't stop me no matter how
much they want to they actually can't
and that to me is so inspiring like
that's all I want people to get and dude
it's hard and it really sucks that it's
going to be harder for some people than
others a hundred percent and trust me
when I look at Elon Musk I am angry that
I'm not that smart and so he's just
always and forever he it feels like he's
always going to be able to out execute
me just because he can process data
faster than I can it's really he's a
superhero living among us you you can
hate him that's right no I'm with you
but he is we're living with Thomas
Edison yeah I hate the way he uses his
fight for him fair all right like every
day I hate it more but you know I don't
take it hard it was built though no wait
it's back to you for half a second well
you were saying a second ago when you
respond to like uh the you know putting
your hand in fire or whatever and you
know what's up smashing yourself yeah
stop what the [ __ ] are you doing even as
you said it though it didn't seem
judgmental it still it seemed like an
anxiety response yes so I don't I still
think it's coming from the same place no
yeah it's more just like ah like yes but
it manifests as I dude look I'm just so
desperate for people to win
I want people to win this is the thing
where I could spin myself off
emotionally you have no idea so first of
all uh in in that way I've earned my
stripes so at Quest it was basically all
minorities and I don't give a [ __ ] like
I don't care I didn't care that they had
criminal records that they were drug
dealers former or current uh I just
wanted people to understand there was a
set of ideas you can totally change your
life forever
but you have to put its use what is up
my friend Tom bilyu here and I have a
big question to ask you how would you
rate your level of personal discipline
on a scale of one to ten if your answer
is anything less than a ten I've got
something cool for you and let me tell
you right now discipline by its very
nature means compelling yourself to do
difficult things that are stressful
boring which is what kills most people
or possibly scary or even painful now
here is the thing achieving huge goals
and stretching to reach your potential
requires you to do those challenging
stressful things and to stick with them
even when it gets boring and it will get
boring building your levels of personal
discipline is not easy but let me tell
you it pays off in fact I will tell you
you're never going to achieve anything
meaningful unless you develop discipline
right I've just released a class from
Impact Theory university called how to
build Ironclad discipline that teaches
you the process of building yourself up
in this area so that you can push
yourself to do the hard things that
greatness is going to require of you
right click the link on the screen
register for this class class right now
and let's get to work I will see you
inside this Workshop from Impact Theory
University and tell them my friends be
legendary peace out
I think people don't fundamentally
believe it's possible as the end of the
I think they just I think they just
don't believe it's possible and I think
it's not going to happen with a bunch of
empty Instagram you know platitudes
about like just do it I think it takes
more Nuance than that and we're not a
world built on Nuance they just don't
believe it's possible they think the
deck is stacked I think we're sold a lot
a bill of goods to believe that you know
it can't happen or in conspiracy
theories and whatnot they we've just
we've lost our way from the celebration
of the individual you know you just gave
me the chills say that again we've lost
our way from the celebration of the
individual like like we we do like it's
like lost in society for some reason and
we experienced the world first
individually and we need to experience
it together but obviously the
individuals at the center of the journey
and yet we want to we want to dilute the
individual experience and we want to
remove the individual from causation we
want to like it's like this vast
conspiracy to take the individual out of
the equation and you look at somebody
like Emerson's incredible writing
favorite piece of writing I ever if I
had one riding on an island it will be
self-reliance that one essay I would
read over and over and over again oh
really oh I'm so excited to share this
video please oh great yeah self-reliance
I just really all these incredible one
of the one of the most Central um
premises of it is one don't Outsource
your judgment
it starts with a phrase in Latin which
is as do not seek outside thyself and it
talks about the indignity of having an
incredible idea like an epiphany but you
refuse to accept it because it was your
own and then later on you're forced to
accept it from another and the indignity
of being force-fed your own insights
from others yeah it's an incredible
piece but the individual has lost its
place in society and it's almost become
like a republican thought or an Ann
randian thought whereas to me it's just
facts
um but when you say things in a
bombastic like just do it it's very hard
for people to implement it's too
simplistic
yeah I agree with the two simplistic
thing yeah okay so getting out of the
Simplicity and into the Nuance I wrote
down a bunch of the things that I took
away from your book emotionally drained
now though I don't know if I can do it
yeah
yeah yeah we're just warming up uh one
of the things that I like is so you're
telling people to burn the boats don't
have the plan B because I mean there's
just a psychological principle at play
that if you have it you're not going to
fight as hard then on top of that you
tell people to aim high
so this is one of the things that
allowed me to be successful was I had
the audacity going back to those three
things I had the audacity to believe
that I could that there was nothing that
I couldn't accomplish now actually as I
get older I think that there are I I
have really tasted my limitations now
ironically
even though I have I've developed enough
scar tissue that I'm like ooh they're
they're probably there is a ceiling to
my abilities
but I don't know that I'll ever reach it
and so it's this fascinating like
oh I can see now that there are limits
there are things I won't be able to
accomplish but since things like
the Aiming High for anybody let's say is
a ratio distance from where you are now
so my aim high may not be Elon musk's
aim Heim he's literally talking about
terraforming a planet I admittedly don't
have that belief in myself and so I'm
not even pursuing that but I am trying
to build the next Disney which for me is
like whoa like this is dizzying and the
irony is when we started I said to my
wife and co-founder I'm not good enough
yet to build the next Disney and so
there's somewhat of a leap of faith in a
shared belief that you and I have that
you have to aim high like go for
something crazy go for something that
actually exceeds your current grasp
burn the boats in your way and now
figure it out there is this
gravitational pull towards um
incrementalism right that we believe
that life and experience unfolds like
sedimentary rock but you only perceive
sedimentary rock in retrospect when you
look back millions of years and it looks
nice and organized so what I mean by
that is like you first need to have the
lemonade stand and then you get to have
a bigger Lemonade Stand then you get to
have a business and I think people look
at their progression of their experience
and success completely the wrong way
that the first thing we always have to
consider is a step change a step change
meaning something that's completely
detached from the experience that came
before it by and large and you envision
opening the 100 million dollar lemonade
stand before you open or eliminate
business before you open a lemonade
stand and the reason why is once you and
you've experienced this once you have a
company when you have a thousand
employees and you think back to when you
had you know 20 this is the problems are
generally the same because most problems
are people problems and once you begin
managing people you have people problems
right and and so I find that if you
bypass the step of saying well what if I
went for a step change what if I went
all at it that reach goal you'll never
be able to ask that question again you
can only ask it at the beginning and
most people ex believe that they have to
have this approach towards
incrementalism and they deny themselves
the benefit of reaching really far so
I'm always trying to put myself in
positions that are tremendous reach I'm
always questioning why not I never
taught anywhere before Harvard Business
School it would have been more logical
to go Queen's College I certainly could
have maybe Fordham law right but I was
like why can't I try to teach it the
best I think I have it in me now back to
my instincts trusting your intuition
there was nobody who could have
confirmed for Matt that he was capable
of walking into that classroom right
that to tell me there's no data so I
feel really passionate that anybody out
there is listening if you have a dream
do not submit to incrementalism before
you've tested the idea of of a step
change but how do you pull that off like
so I know what it takes to run business
there are times where I'm teaching
people business and I'm like Jesus like
to get across the complexity of these
ideas it is so hard it's so complex like
even the throwaway comment I want to
burst out laughing because I know what's
hiding in oh you have people problems
it's like like that is that that's tomes
this right of how to deal with said
people problems and all the variations
that they come in so how the hell have
you figured this kind of like going back
to this idea of principles yeah how do
you start like okay I'm gonna sort of
bucket these like yeah is it Vision
First like you have to be able to see it
before you can execute it is it
convincing other people is it
understanding are you a Visionary or an
operator like how do you begin yeah I
think the first thing is um one just as
a general principle never let anybody
put you in a box and make sure you're
not putting in your own box so you have
to sort of you know unchain yourself
from what conventional wisdom is that
says this is what I am this is what
because you'll end up limiting yourself
yes because like for me I I never taught
before for so if I'm listening to the
peanut gallery they'd be like well where
do you get off you're not you don't
teach and I always have to deal with
that response to my audacity all the
time like what are you now you got a
book what are you are you some lifestyle
Guru that's the question I'm like no
[ __ ] I have something to say but
whatever you go write a book it only
takes three years live a life worth
writing a book about it yeah that's the
real challenge right so so this isn't a
screed against
um expertise expertise does matter it's
a warning that you should be your own
litmus test at least start there of
whether you have what it takes so my
process is whatever audacious thing I'm
looking to do including like Shark Tank
right start there how do you get on
Shark Tank everyone asked me I was like
there is no you know go on the internet
and put your name in like it was a
Year's worth of meanings but I had to
start like because there is no litmus
test by saying what does it
fundamentally to be mean to be on Shark
Tank well one you have to have a history
of being an investor all right well I
did that two you have to be presumed to
have some platform some reach of that
and perform well under a camera so that
they want to put you in front of one
think I have that four have a good
compelling origin story right well I
think I have that right so now it's the
how the how is a lot easier actually
everything has a how I just have to look
for the how when it came to Shark Tank
is a guy named Reed Bergman he had
helped uh A-Rod get on the show like
he's my agent you know there was a how
it was the first part of of deciding
what's the litmus test and relying on my
own judgment to say that I belong on
that show because if if you don't do
that then you're just delusional I'm not
one of these people that's like plan a
or all in like I go through a process to
determine whether the goal is delusional
I just don't rely on on external
validation because external validation
will always tell you it's not your time
right you're not good enough I really
hope people heard what you just said
yeah you don't have a delusional plan a
and burn the boats and then you're like
well I'm now all [ __ ] no not at all
I'm very risk adverse so my plan a
allows pivoting and iteration but like
every audacious goal you know like I
have a hierarchy of goals with the book
right my number one goal which was the
hardest one is like let me connect with
people in a way that's unusual let me
not write a boring Business book that's
redundant after the third chapter let me
write a story Well story takes a [ __ ]
load of work I was like well I was a
journalist when I was a kid I was a
little reporter I was nominated for a
Pulitzer when I was 19. you know hell
anybody could be you and I can nominate
each other but Carl Bernstein nominated
me Jesus she's on the board of directors
of my company so I always have to caveat
that very clearly anybody can be
nominated but I won a lot of awards for
investigative journalism oh I I have the
skills to tell a story and I have a
vision I'm going to do it different than
I have something to say point is there's
nobody for me to go on the internet does
Matt Higgins deserve to write a book and
could it be a book that gains traction
and I think that's where people go wrong
they they there's a gravitational pull
of incrementalism because incrementalism
is the only thing for which we have data
to validate our choices incrementalism
like oh I know that the person who
opened lemonade business would probably
have evidence of having a lemonade stand
you know so there's a conversation in my
book about Jesse Darris and um we
ultimately created a Communications firm
together and we went for this epic walk
and he's a risk adverse human and and
his mind kept telling him let me be the
partner at this firm first before I'm
capable of running my own business and I
was like why what is it about getting
the imprimatur of being a partner you
know on a door that actually makes you
more qualified to run your own firm
because Society told you that that was
the logical sequence of events and then
in the end we created The Firm obviously
or else it wouldn't be in the book and
he sold it for tens of millions of
dollars but those are the most
transformative trajectory changing
conversations I have with people when I
challenge their bias towards
incrementalism and we break down and
people always know when it's right like
they always know oh for me to run my own
private Equity Firm all I have to have
is access to dealflow a great Network to
raise money the tenacity to keep going
and like and off we go there's a student
my book Harvard student was about to
take a job with a soul-crushing private
Equity Firm and he was in my office
trying to help make decide which crappy
firm to take and as he was talking I was
like can I ask you a question I was like
why aren't you just creating your own
firm and he goes well who's going to
give me money I was like nobody until
the one person who gives you the money
and when they [ __ ] do you're gonna
have your own firm true story leaves my
office after giving that speech I'm like
I don't know he's he came from the
military so it used to corporate higher
you know military hierarchies I'm like I
don't know if he has the willingness to
break out of that gravitational pull
three months later or whatever he calls
me up so let me get your address and I'm
like wise I want to send you the swag
from The Firm I created when I walked
out your office I raised 10 million
dollars an hour and now I'm raising 50
million
that was a long way of answering your
question I guess the question is not
it's it's really about containing within
yourself the ability to decide whether
you have the expertise necessary not
whether somebody else grants you the
expertise necessary so you've done a lot
of crazy things I think I'd heard you
throw away that you were a journalist
but that one didn't sink in yeah so the
fact that you've done that people don't
even know about your time in the
government what you did with 911 the
memorial what you've done in the NFL I
mean it's like your story is crazy you
should be 75 to have the biography
pretty pretty nuts
um
how do you learn like how do you go and
okay I'm gonna do this crazy thing that
is new it's a step function ahead but at
some point you actually have to get good
at that thing how have you gotten good
at that that's such a great point I I I
I I'm sure like you do I have that voice
in my head that does say like where do
you get off you know a bit right and
then I have this tremendous desire to do
well and to do right to honor the
whoever granted me entrance to the to
the setting you know or a seat at the
table there's always somebody who
decided yeah I agree I agree with your
litmus test you do have what it takes
I'm going to open the door to you now
I'm going to vouch for you I might even
put myself In Harm's Way by letting you
in this room I feel such tremendous
obligation to confirm even at my age
convinced people to do that are you
really good at that because like your
firm RSE uh
you guys say we're about connecting the
dots yeah and the testimonials I don't
know if you prompted people but they
were all like oh they know how to
connect us
that that is my crypto night
how how do you find wait what do you
mean in a good way or a bad way I'm
terrible I don't networking is my
question
networking I hate that I'm the most
introverted human this is the first
meeting I've had in a year I don't even
leave the house I just hang on my wife
you and I are no I'm really so
introverted yeah people people don't
believe it because I have Charisma and
you have Charisma right Charisma is just
an accident like I so introverted I'm
lost in my head
um so when I say connect the dots it's
more people you know how these
investment firms put such a [ __ ]
narrative to make things tidy like we
are only doing in this you know a series
B whatever like I don't have the need to
do that because it's myself and Steve
Ross we're Partners right but he
connects for those who don't know it's
Steve Ross Steve Ross Yes Steve Ross
right so you know largest developer in
the United States tremendous
entrepreneur but he gives himself
permission to play in such attenuated
places and spaces and doesn't care what
anybody thinks but when you look back
how did he get here and I'll give you an
example uh for those who don't know my
firm does you know consumer broadly
we're in food on partners with Dave
Chang and Mama fuku I've done a lot in
sports huge international soccer
business but there was a time when Steve
and I decided we would buy formula one
and I had based upon my experience in
sports knowed that the asset was
completely under optimized spent two
years attempting to buy the entire sport
it does not work out right for a variety
of reasons uh and but the consolation
prize but we understood enough about the
sport and what was wrong with deal
structures on these races that we ended
up incubating a race in Miami so now we
have what I believe is one of the
coolest races in the world that takes
place every May in Miami
race yeah we brought a Formula One race
to the United States and I never would
have done that so if you are looking for
a tidy narrative an F1 race and a sea of
other things next to Momofuku might not
make sense but there's a reason so when
I use connected dots it's actually
leveraging that which came before to put
the pieces together it's not so much
networking
that's really interesting so but my body
I'm not my body me as an individual as
the self is operating under the same
general principle and that I I don't
know how much uh you're into real estate
but there's a phrase in real estate
zoning or philosophy called highest and
best use it's a way to ensure that you
don't have a piece of property sitting
in the middle of a metropolitan area
that's zoned to only be a two-story
Church you know in the year 2023 right
so you want to make sure a property is
always put to its highest of best use I
treat myself like a piece of property
that's constantly being rezoned every
week sounds a bit crazy but I ask myself
every week sometimes every day what is
the highest and best use of Matt Higgins
today and the reason why that question
is so important I am an amalgam of all
these accumulated experiences that now
give me permission for a step change
into a new environment and so I like
that so much uh thank you that's really
powerful yeah I'm obsessed with that
thought and that is really the formula
that I'm operating upon so when I finish
Shark Tank which was a great experience
I'm we're sitting my wife on the second
time on the set and and I kind of went
all in and I was like babe let's just
sit here for a minute because I don't
think I'm ever going to be back on the
set she's like no you're a recurring
shark they named you I was like don't
think I'm coming back I don't know why
but but it's just it's no longer the
highest and best use no no will be just
because I feel like they'd move on and
they were more charismatic you know
whatever I just thought that the journey
would end here right and and my point is
once I did that though I said
what would actually be better than now
that I've done Shark Tank what's the
highest and best use of Matt Higgins now
that I've done it oh creating your own
Shark Tank and fast forward I partnered
with Mark Burnett to create our own show
called business Hunters right and then
after I did that show I was like huh
well now that I know how to do a show
wouldn't it be better to like own the
show outright and so I created a
Production Studio with Gary vaynerchuk
and Eric wattenberg so I'm just showing
you how that mentality now people
listening are going to say this is
exhausting so I don't you know like I'm
sorry I apologize it doesn't have to be
like that I'm just trying to show how
you can make big hopscotches if you want
in your life interesting I really maybe
they will but I would be if people are
exhausted by I'm learning so let me
start with that and so because this is
the thing that
um this really changed my life so I met
entrepreneurs that they were just
farther ahead than me and while they
didn't have the words that you're
talking about about aim high and all
that stuff it was like I watched them do
it and I was like oh I'm playing way too
small interesting oh I can be way more
aggressive than I'm being interesting
like even now to your point about people
problems the when when I have people
problems in the company it's almost
always because people underestimate what
they can pull off and so they're not
moving with urgency they're not being
aggressive enough they're not like
reaching far enough making demands of
people Etc et cetera
so hearing how you move hearing your
story hearing what you've done in soccer
hearing how you spent your time in the
NFL what you liked what you didn't like
it's really interesting because
I'll add something I think you're going
to agree with this okay so you're you're
looking for what's the opportunity
what's underserved like you said F1 is
an underutilized asset that also ties
into what you were talking about with
Emerson where it's like you have to have
a a an epiphany and then trust it and
look you're gonna get slapped in the
face sometimes because you're going to
be wrong or mistimed or whatever right
but if you're learning from that every
time and you act with a boldness and you
look for how do I connect the dots I
mean this really is like so the the step
function change
God the step function change I'll
explain I'm nesting ideas but the the
step function change of really reaching
beyond what you're currently capable of
is the path from getting out of your
sort of rut nine to five like I'm only
ever gonna achieve this much and doing
something really extraordinary okay now
that that idea is finished just
yesterday one of my students from Impact
Theory University Applied for one of our
jobs
got on the call and he's not the right
fit and I told him so because he doesn't
have enough experience in that thing for
me to feel like okay like you need to go
get
knowledge that would be useful in this
job but as he was telling me his story
about what he had applied that
willingness to step function he'd gotten
into surgery and so he's on the uh
there's a name for it I'm forgetting
that but basically they sterilize
everything and they're the ones when you
say scalpel they had to do the scalpel
that whole thing okay this kid took
himself from Watts which if anybody is
familiar with South Central LA
watts is rough
rough and so we used to hire a lot of
people out of Watts so I I know what
I've seen Watts up close that's one of
the few places I've been scared in broad
daylight it is it's it's a whole thing
and so he took himself from that to
getting all the way there by saying okay
I'm gonna believe that I can learn I'm
gonna push myself he was taking a bus
four hours a day to go to school just
really incredible when people get out of
that rut start looking at okay what is
uh the highest and best use of my
current skill set how do I get out of my
um God what'd you call it
you're challenging the conventional
wisdom so something else gravitational
yeah no no one of the very first things
you said like you really have to break
outside of that like oh this is the
standard path and most people just do
that and that's it yeah so you end up
like for him the standard path would
have been basically day labor and you
know that's that and so for him to push
outside of that get on a surgical team
it was really amazing to hear him talk
about hey I'm deploying these ideas and
I'm using it to like make these leaps so
anyway this is all a reaction to you
saying that people are getting exhausted
but that to me there there's a nugget
there that's hard to encapsulate which
is
you need to be getting yourself in new
rooms with new people that force you to
learn new things you need to be
freakishly looking for what's the
opportunity here how do I connect dots
that other people aren't connecting and
then just keep leapfrogging for me I'm
giving people practical advice well how
do I identify that breach right what is
the thing you know the the opportunity
or the Arbitrage like where is it I feel
convinced that everybody has
um within their life a proprietary
Insight that could be the seed of if not
a new business not everybody has to be
an entrepreneur but at least a promotion
or or a step change of their life and
sort of to unpack that when you think
about the best businesses over the last
you know 20 years that stick with us the
brands like Airbnb for example they're
not they're not inventions like Shark
Tank leads you to believe they the Shark
Tank leads to you to believe that you
have to have an invention to you know to
have your own autonomy and run your
business nothing could be further for
the truth usually it's a refinement or
an improvement of a process right and so
when you look at Brian chesky and his
co-founders of Airbnb you know he
slipped on a futon at one point was like
maybe other people would want to rent
futons which is a Preposterous idea in
09 like everybody's gonna steal [ __ ] and
you know they're not going to pay like
this I don't know how he had that
Insight but for some reason him and his
three friends recognize that the sharing
economy was going to explode and extend
to houses and now he has a 100 billion
dollar business because of a proprietary
Insight everybody listening to this
right now
um sees something that is a proprietary
Insight that in order to bring it to
fruition now you have to eschew
incrementalism and have the courage to
make a step change so when I was on my
show business hunters and the whole
purpose was to take somebody who wanted
to start their own business and give
them
um and and help them determine which
business to buy like House Hunters right
this is a show that did not air uh we're
still trying to find a home but I was
sitting there talking to these two
sisters from the Bronx and I was asking
what do you do now he's like well I have
five airbnbs I'm like where are they I
think they were in you know Georgia I'm
like oh why there he's like well we have
a lot of visiting nurses there and I and
I know the visiting nurses can stay for
Extended Stays 30 days and they pay
better because they're subsidized I'm
like huh well how'd you figure that out
well I used to work in a hotel what'd
you do at the hotel I was just at the at
the at the front desk but I would always
hear visiting nurses come in and wonder
why they were staying so long we and
they and we charge them more because you
know that's that was the setup with the
visiting nurses and I thought if I could
create an Airbnb as a network of them
for visiting nurses I could have an
annuity business I'm like
that was my I was like mind-blowing
that's a proprietary Insight So for
anybody listening who are like wait I've
had one of those you know that's what
gets me excited about the book and I can
I deconstruct what it looks like to have
both a proprietary insight and what a
step change would look like she could
easily have said well before I can run
my own Airbnb I need to be the manager
of a hotel first so I'm going to wait
three or four years this is what most
people do and I just for whatever reason
I don't know if it was my mom or God but
I was like I was not wired to accept
those boundaries I challenged them until
one of them beats me into submission
which happens regularly oh for sure for
sure right so this is so interesting so
you're here's a trick that I do so I
want to help people cross a bridge so
people are going to hear this and
they're going to get in the room now and
they're going to be looking for that
proprietary insight and they're not
going to know how to manufacture it I
think there's a way so here's what I do
this is how I interview this is how I
read books this is how I
um come up with vision for where to take
the company I'll look at something and
so I did this with your book so I read
your book and I start myself with the
question what's interesting here and
then what I try to do is break down what
I think your thesis is without going
back to reread just without looking at
my own notes
what what's interesting what is this
thesis what's the The Narrative thread
that you've woven and what it forces you
to do is understand it
and so if somebody finds themselves in
the room in F1 soccer you're in over
your head you have no idea what's
happening
the the thing that changed my life is
when I get in that room I'm not afraid
to look stupid because if I ask until I
understand I can have a proprietary
Insight because now I actually
understand it but if I if I'm just like
oh yeah and I want to look cool and I'm
yeah no I get that for sure yep yep and
then you don't understand it you can't
synthesize it at the end and so you you
have to push yourself and you're it's
going to make you feel like an idiot at
least it does me so I always end up
feeling really stupid for a second so
I'm like wow I don't actually understand
this what is this how do I connect that
and I have to ask what about this yeah
and but once I get it and I think of
myself like Ai and I'm like I need to
feed the tombot I need to to force the
data into my brain and go okay once I
understand it then my subconscious will
start working on like how it's usable
what it can be deployed against it will
interact like almost like you know
chemicals interacting with each other in
ways that I couldn't have predicted
so again a nested idea
in the Nobel Prize typically they're one
at the intersection of two things
biology and chemistry whatever and so
it's like when you have two worlds
colliding you'll get far more unique
insights so I had this happen very
profoundly for me in comic books so uh
this was six years ago we're launching
impact Theory I know that comic books
are a traditional feeder into film and
TV so I'm like all right let's do Comics
low dollar amount potentially big win so
we create a comic we get it printed we
get it distributed
and I'm I've had 40 000 plus points of
distribution in a quest so I know what
real distribution looks like real volume
like 2.5 million bars a day or whatever
it's just insane all over how 100
countries whatever it was amazing yeah
nuts right and so I'm used to knowing
what shelf I'm on who's category Captain
like all like ah like what how am I
selling in Poughkeepsie with this SKU
right and you're getting it almost real
time and I go into Comics there's one
distributor and they give you no
information and so I was like time out
this is so crazy I'm like either we buy
the distributor or we get out of this
completely and so we ended up getting
out of it because it was self-evident to
me because I understood distribution I
could have a new chemical reaction of
what I knew from even though it was from
nutrition manufacturing it was helping
me in comics because I understood it and
it's like if you force yourself to
understand and send the size now as you
go into a new space you can make unique
connections get these proprietary
insights anyway I wanted to give people
away and if anybody's listening to what
you just said because this is where the
Mind goes they'll be like yeah but when
I when I ask questions I feel stupid
because I kind of exposes where I came
from my background my deficiencies the
way I immunize myself this is because I
do exactly what you did I don't give a
[ __ ] on I'll ask questions I'm Not
Afraid
um I I transport my this whole room that
I'm in to a different to my playing
field where I know they'd be out of
their depth and I imagine well and this
could be as simple as you know you play
twitch all day and you're a great gamer
whatever it is that you're a little
patch of dirt that you own transport
that room to your territory and imagine
them out of their depth because
everyone's out of their depth and you
are always in your element somewhere to
immunize yourself from the insecurity
but love the way you put the pieces
together for those listening who want to
say okay but make it even more
actionable I tell the story in the book
I love this story because this is
refutable evidence of what a proprietary
Insight what somebody could do with a
step change Michelle Cordero Grant was a
uh maybe like a director at Victoria's
Secret in the marketing department and
she kept being alienated by her own
marketing thinking it feels like we're
talking to women only as you know
objects to please men and all the
branding around our branding and maybe
and maybe I'm being too harsh maybe
wasn't as harsh sorry Michelle if that's
not exactly what you said but whatever
and so but I believe there's another
um demo and cohort that would like to
wear this clothes for their own
edification to feel good body positive
sexy whatever it is but I'm just an
executive at Victoria's Secret right so
what does she do she's like I think this
is a proprietary Insight didn't use
those words creates a you know a
community it's a crowdsource it creates
a waiting list it like blows up right so
now she knows there's a market for this
but the problem is she's an executive
right she has to make this she can
either now go work for someone else's
company or she could Lobby Victoria's
Secret to create a new line or she could
cross the threshold and say I think I
have what it takes to be a founder and
CEO and I'm going to do it she quits
based on the strength of the community
so my point is to everybody out there
don't be afraid to share your idea with
others I you know people always worried
out somebody's going to steal it when
somebody says they're worried about
somebody's gonna steal it uh it's the
end of the meeting for me it's like
you're here there's a great line in The
Social Network movie if you had invented
Facebook you would have invented
Facebook like don't be afraid she shares
her idea she quits she creates a company
called Lively which is all premised on
this idea and she sells it for 100
million dollars within five years whoa
so now she's a woman of color she was
never founded before she had no money
there you cannot remove yourself from
the from the truth of that story so
anyone out there listening that wants a
case study reach out to Michelle and say
how'd you do it but I believe everybody
that Insight was so simple right like
why why are we talking to this other
group everybody has an Insight like that
within their grasp not that everybody
needs to be a Founder Michelle could
have leveraged that for a promotion too
so I don't want to just talk about like
fetishizing the entrepreneur I hate that
crap but you know anyway I just love
that story The Elegance of it it is a
great story yeah having the gump Shin to
act on that and to start your own
company
it's very impressive right and she
didn't take on a co-founder so I use her
for two reasons because because and you
talk about partnership all the time with
your wife like uh one of the top
questions that people have at Harvard at
the uh at the end of these 17 classes
they always want to know how the founder
chose their co-founder and how to decide
whether you need a co-founder
she actually didn't have a co-founder
and in the book I go through her process
for deciding she didn't need one and how
she thought she could pull it I don't
remember that yeah walk people through
that it's actually so I have always had
a co-founder and probably always will
going back to I love winning as a team
the idea I'd like to see other people
succeed which makes me like being on a
team blah blah blah yeah but she had a
really logical way of thinking about how
she could get around it because it
wasn't like oh I can do everything
myself no it was it was basically she
she honestly asked herself what are the
deficiencies uh in my skill sets or my
expertise or desire and can I backfill
those or augment those by hiring people
versus equitizing a co-founder and as
she went through each one of them supply
chain all the other issues she felt like
I could hire that person now oftentimes
people get that equation wrong and they
think I find this a lot with like robots
people who are kind of like robotic and
they want the world to be driven by
Excel or our AI that they they have a
disdain from marketing being an EQ and
like I'll just hire some tick tocker you
know with almost like disdain that never
works out so but the conclusion in my
Harvard class whenever we ask successful
co-founders how'd you choose they always
contradict what the students believe
they said
um complimentary skill sets is way
subordinate to Value overlap I chose my
partner Bob or Sally whatever because we
looked at the world the same way and why
that mattered as companies fail when
things go wrong and we can't survive and
when you have value overlap we're able
to survive so I I thought that Focus
conventional wisdom is augmenting where
you're weak and they said actually
overlap where you're strong which is
your value system and then subordinate
as maybe but if not you know winners
will winners will figure it out yeah I'm
a big believer that choosing a business
partner is like choosing a spouse
I think you want somebody who overlaps
on your values like 80 85 of your values
better be the same otherwise you're
going to have Collision there are two
collisions that can really cause uh a
breakup and that is a values Collision
or a collision of Base assumptions that
you never recognize and I see that one a
lot like if you're having a problem in
your marriage I guarantee it's either a
values Collision or a base assumption
Collision basis on I think people will
get values but base assumption is that I
invisibly think the world Works in XYZ
way and the other person invisibly
thinks the world Works in a different
way values is odd the world ought to be
this way base assumption is it is this
way and so often people don't realize
you have codified the world that way
it's not necessarily objectively true or
at least not in some binary way and so I
found this was from working with my
former business partners
I would sit there and be thinking
they're a [ __ ] idiot and they're
talking to me like they think I'm an
idiot and so I'm like I know they're not
and I'm not so what is happening when
two smart people think that the other
person is a [ __ ] and I was like oh wow
for because I I'm a writer by trade and
so I always go back to if I were writing
this person as a character what would
they need to believe for them to be
acting this way and so I was like he
would have to believe that this is true
and I remember one day I stopped him and
I was like do you think this is true
he's like yeah obviously and I was like
oh my God and so then I was like okay
this we're going to call this base
assumption from now on so your base
assumption is this my base assumption is
this now we can actually talk about it
one of us is probably right and one of
us is wrong but at least now we're
talking about the real thing and yeah I
think that's really important so anyway
you have to have overlapping values with
your founder spouse whatever but I do
think that you want to have that you
will be best suited if you guys don't
think the same way so you value the same
things you don't think the same way
it was a great quote and if you've heard
this before but that if in business you
and your partner think the same way one
of you is irrelevant and I've that
really resonates I I so I would agree
with your caveat to Value overlap I
think at the end of the day when when
there's not a clear reason for why both
of you exist that is a recipe can be a
recipe for a disaster so whether it's
saying you know think exactly the same
way or it's you know a a
um a bias towards one particular area of
the business is actually helpful I find
where people where Partnerships go wrong
because I'm often stepping into like a
failed partnership or trying to work it
out I mean that fact pattern recurs over
and over again because that's where
opportunities happen right there's a lot
of value destruction when Partnerships
go wrong and I found when I look at the
Genesis like how'd this partnership form
and oftentimes it's because there was a
uh there was a interloper into an
industry that had a vision for doing
things differently but they either
believed that they were deficient in
some area or they needed subject expert
subject matter expertise wow they go
ahead and they choose a partner the
problem is because they had the courage
to to invade the industry that only last
like four months before they're like
this is all stupid you guys are all
stupid and then now they're stuck with
the co-founder who is born of that
industry and not born of disruption and
then eventually they're disdain or you
know conflict sets in
that makes a lot of sense and there
really is a temptation to do that to get
somebody that really knows the space
it's logic that's why I thought Michelle
could have created in the book I'm like
well she didn't have that because she
was from the industry she knew what she
wanted to disrupt but I see that fact
pattern over and over again I don't
think it applies to personal personal uh
life I think that augmenting you know or
or completing applies more to personal
but I see that in business all the time
with failed Partnerships that's so
interesting all right I have to ask were
you the one that brought Kim Kardashian
to Harvard I was well I shouldn't say I
I have two co-professors they're
professors I'm a fake Professor I'm an
executive fellow but they uh one of them
had a relationship with Jens who's her
partner and then we did multiple calls
to you know
what are we going to talk about is it
comfortable and then sure enough it
happened that's my class though so I I
am very impressed with what she's done
and I remember I heard about her saying
like basically God if I'm misquoting I
hope not but basically hey ladies like
don't let anything hold you back just
work harder or get up at work or
whatever the quote was and when I heard
it and didn't know people backlash I was
like yes that's so dope and yeah I was
like hell don't say that again no I have
to because I really believe it yeah so
uh did you get backlash for bringing Kim
Kardashian and then what do you think of
what she's accomplished
um the answer is not enough backlash I
was not enough I was hoping for more
because it's entertaining because I
don't care and I was a little annoyed
that it like didn't come land uh you
know it took like a few days before I
was on CNBC and I was asked about it and
the reason why is she has built a
multi-billion Dollar business I'm an
investor actually but that's really yeah
yeah I have an investor in skims but you
know congratulations thank you but
that's but that's beside the point she
has built an amazing business and I love
the lack of intellectual curiosity to
say well why was she invited to Harvard
and the reason why my course is called a
moving beyond Direction consumer and
this year's every year is a sub theme
that I like to introduce that would
surprise the students or like at that
demographic might be slightly beyond
their reach so this year's sub context
was uh Tick Tock is is the new Google
right like and that's where search
begins that was one and two and two that
CAC uh on the DTC model is as out of
whack and rhymed I didn't mean to but
the hack is out of whack and that
acquisition costs are really expensive
and a lot of TTC models are broken and
they raised at these inflated valuations
and they're not sustainable because now
investors are demanding profitability
blah blah so that was like the whole
thing so we brought in
um Scarlett Johansson uh I'm an investor
in her business and advisor we brought
in Bobby Bobby Brown to demonstrate
straight that somebody in their 60s
could dominate Tick Tock and we brought
in Kim Kardashian the Common Thread
between those three is they're all using
their community and celebrity to
generate subsidized CAC with outrageous
numbers and their businesses are
Printing and so it was entertaining to
watch everyone judge Kim and it's very
superficial way now I don't keep up with
the Kardashians literally so I had no
idea honestly and when I saw her in that
class she was there for uh um almost two
hours it's not like the students hold
back you know what I mean watching her
volley with everyone in that class and
watching her hold her own with all the
with all the founders was pretty
remarkable I was incredibly impressed
but I love those situations when you
have total conviction and like you don't
really care and that I was waiting for
more of the backlash and uh it didn't it
wasn't quite intense enough yeah I I so
going back to things I'm allergic to I
don't understand people that look at
somebody that's successful and look for
reasons to dismiss them and why well
that's a terrible example because
because XYZ right it's like man well not
only that if every celebrity could slap
their name on the brand they'd all be
Moguls right they'd all be billionaires
it's not it's not easy what she did she
didn't just she's like so stayed
relevant for a long time right and was
just found an amazing uh sliver of the
market built a direct to Consumer
business that is valued in the Pro I
don't know what it would be valued now
probably five billion dollars it looked
like right and yet there was this desire
to dismiss and now In fairness you you
reap what you sell right I mean she I
even said to her off camera uh this
actually probably be on the Hulu show I
was like I don't follow you so maybe
that everyone knows this about you but I
would not have perceived you as somebody
that could go in at Harvard Business
School and hold you around with the best
consumer Founders in the country she
actually said I want to show more of
this of me but when I had my Sean e they
never wanted to show it they said it was
boring and people don't want to see me
in this light so it's admittedly it's
it's not entertaining in that way that's
true so I get e like they've what
they've done I think it's amazing and
again it's you and I don't keep up with
the Kardashians Maybe than me I have a
feeling as time goes by she will become
more than even a Paris Hilton figure
right you know Paris Hilton had her own
reduction story right a thousand times
right but my point is we will see Kim
Kardashian in the light of the Mogul
that she is and they'll be an
integration if she keeps us going God
you just you can deny somebody only so
long so she's winning people like me
over who I'm not immersed in her world
and so after all I know she's saying
just absolutely atrocious things on
social media but I'm watching her move
as a business person I'm like damn but
if he was sitting at the table right now
you know how we're having this
intellectual conversation about
Partnerships and bad Equity structure
and product she would be keeping up with
us I was like is this on purpose you
know and they also didn't work very hard
to get the story out in a business
context that she was coming there so
maybe I thought maybe it is like a grand
point and there's an intriguing question
there like is that brand damaging for
her no I think if maybe it was all just
like we're living in a Truman show
called Kim Kardashian I don't know maybe
it was all calculated I don't know so
it's pretty amazing so interesting dude
the book is amazing where can people
find you thank you I'm uh I'm on
Instagram I'm on LinkedIn I spend a lot
of time I can't stay on Twitter I'm
there but it's the latest Matt Higgins
land of hate can we talk one more before
we go please about um your spouse yeah I
I love your relationship with her thank
you and um I talk about my wife all the
time as my basically my co-founder and
that
um I no matter what environment I am the
uh the the uh that my conditions are
always I need to do it with Sarah
because we're better together and so
when I teach at Harvard people don't
know the Sarah's in the back of the room
and she said my wife does the logistics
for the course because they're third
you're playing into a thesis I have so
my wife is all about logistics is
utterly amazing obviously my co-founder
uh yeah we'll need a lot more time to
talk about how that ends up happening
but that's amazing yeah so you went
through a divorce it was utterly
soul-crushing by your own admission how
did you rebuild and how did you find
somebody the second time that actually
really fit you I think I went online to
be honest like I think get more data was
the first starting point but
I think we are we don't believe that
we're either entitled to something or
that something exists and the change in
my mindset was maybe that that person
does exist that's right for me and maybe
and maybe I deserve it people can be
cliche like I just want to thank my
partner like like no no no I'm like I
dedicated the book to her for a reason
and she unlocks all this potential
because there's value alignment but also
there's no ego and so the secret my
secret sauce is that we are doing it all
together in these different environments
which can seem a little bit
unconventional but back to you guys I
admire the way you talk about each other
and I feel like by modeling it this is
the point of my story you take care of
one of the two issues that I just
brought up that maybe it maybe it
doesn't exist or maybe it does exist if
somebody models that kind of dynamic
then people believe that it's out there
and so when I see you two on Internet
it's like oh you're telling millions of
people that it exists all right
everybody if you haven't already be sure
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friends be legendary take care peace
building businesses really is a skill
that anyone can learn check out this
interview with Alex hermosi if you want
to learn how to go from being broke to
making your business Skyrocket they
should focus on one thing in general
rather than lots of different things
that you're not sure about because if
you're starting out