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Language: en
when I was at my most sexually vital and
excited about life mid-30s I was lean
had a decent amount of muscle at least
for me and really felt good my question
is though do you think if you had a gun
to your head did I feel awesome because
I was lean and had a decent amount of
muscle or did I feel awesome because my
testosterone was higher than it is now
in my mid-40s and what I'm trying to
figure out cuz at some point I am going
to do trt but so far I've done nothing I
haven't even gone out of my way to
naturally optimize my testosterone but I
feel like I'm getting to the point now
where I need to start really thinking
about that and so I'm just curious
between those two um for a guy of any
age if you needed to make them feel like
life is worth living would you optimize
testosterone or would you optimize
physique that's tough to say cuz when
you say leaner two that could be not
conducive to opal testosterone levels
too because I know a lot of people in
the fitness industry for example young
guys in their 20s who are trying to make
a name for themselves and go viral and
stand out they'll literally walk around
at 6 7% body fat year round and they
look great and their ego is inflated and
they get all the compliments and they
think it's you know the best thing ever
but their testosterone levels are like
200 whoa yeah they're like literally
hypogonadal at 21 years old Jesus yeah
from being lean or from yeah like
calorie deprivation excessive cardio
like their body isn't essentially start
starvation mode perpetually there's
definitely like a balance to be had
where you could try and keep your
hormones as ideal as they can be well
let's say that I did the blood test and
I slide it across the table what's the
first thing that you would look for you
know that the person sliding it across
the table saying I want to feel awesome
yeah you go to what what are like the to
three things that you're going to look
at okay I guess from the neurological
side and muscle building potential side
I would be looking at free testosterone
in particular which would be the freely
circulating Androgen that dictates
muscle growth if I was to be looking for
signaling to actually determine if you
were truly hypogonadal or not and needed
something like trt I would be looking at
they're called gonadotropins which is
the signal from your pituitary to your
testies to actually make intratesticular
testosterone so that would be lutenizing
hormone and follicle stimulating hormone
would that go down if I'm on trt those
would go to nothingness interesting yeah
like they would be subclinical and show
that you're entirely deficient because
you would be using an exogenous Source
like pinning exogenous testosterone
which would then tell your brain we
don't need to make anym uh genotropin
because we don't need to Signal the
testes to make any more testosterone or
have spermatogenesis either and that is
where fertility rates can decline from
using exogenous testosterone as well and
then from there that's where you get the
testicular atrophy from using steroids
super interesting okay so that was to
what's the third thing that you would
look at maybe like fasting insulin just
to see how insulin sensitive somebody is
I've seen you talk about this on your
show multiple times but it's kind of
like your body's ability to actually
utilize nutrients effectively and
actually like get glucose into muscle
and if you are having resistance to
getting the actual energy into cells you
were going to have issues actually being
an optimal functioning human and
maximizing muscle growth and all of
these things it's interesting so glucose
has been my obsession but now as I start
thinking about what what's that next
level for me as I get older I really
start to think about trt uh and for
people that don't know testosterone
replacement therapy so is that do you
just look at numbers is in a blood test
is that an age thing like how do you if
you're working with somebody how do you
help them decide is it ability to put on
muscle what's the determining Factor
ideally it's a hybrid of symptoms and
biomarkers however
I'm sure you've probably met a guy in
your life who had some
unreasonably I don't know like crazy
genetic predisposition to gaining muscle
but then on their blood test it's not
necessarily reflected in well how come
their testosterone level is only 500 or
600 and I'm not more jacked and I have
an 800 like it doesn't always work that
it's just you have more test equals more
muscle than the next guy it's also you
know receptor sensitivity density gene
expression subsequent to that like there
are a lot of things that play into it so
it's not always down to just the number
cuz hypothetically you might need more
testosterone than the next guy to
achieve the same functions from a like
physiology perspective like you might be
able to get away with a 400 total with a
free that is 2 to 3% of that and feel
totally fine have a perfect libido be a
vital human and have nothing going like
seemingly wrong whereas another guy
might have a 600 or 700 and have
symptoms of low te because he either
needs more or too much of it being bound
up by binding proteins because of his
lifestyle and or Diet model or what have
you um so it kind of depends like
ultimately it would be dictated by you
know are you waking up with morning wood
do you still have a good libido how is
it compared to you know in your most
vital period of life you know comparing
to your mid-20s or whatever um assessing
muscle growth potential like that is
kind of a metric that could be used like
if you notice your body composition is
suddenly declining despite you seemingly
having the same routine that you've
always had that would obviously be like
a pretty
good factor to keep into account um but
on blood test typically you're going to
see the manifestation of low te in
that's signaling to your testes or if
you actually had it's called primary
hypog grism is when the testies
literally don't respond to those signals
and that's like where trt becomes the
most warranted in general can you spike
the gonadal signaling or do you have to
go like if it's low or it's present but
you're not getting the release of
testosterone is there something that you
can do to to boost that signal yeah so
the signal to your testes is all based
on a feedback system so it's your body
determining okay we don't have enough
testosterone and estrogen to facilitate
certain functions in the body so we have
to make more but it's going to be
dictated too by energy intake Sleep
Quality macro and micronutrient intake
not just your protein carbs fats but
also the micronutrients you're taking in
the quality the foods you're eating all
those things are massively impactful on
what that signaling capacity will
actually be so it doesn't always boil
down to oh you were just too lean too
like if you were following a diet that
was totally deficient in fat or
deficient in zinc um magnesium like what
have you like certain things that are
very uh more heavily proportionately
contributing to testosterone production
these things can have very negative
downward pressure on your pituitary
output of these hormones and down the
line or Downstream to that prevent you
from making as much test as you could so
as far as like what you could do to
spike it a lot of the same principles
that I'm sure you preach regularly on
this channel about uh you know lifestyle
practices sleep hygiene diet quality a
lot of people Overlook problems with
sleep though with things like sleep
apnea is very common and men like a lot
more prevalent than people are aware of
and they think they sleep oh I'm in bed
for eight hours and I'm sleeping but the
quality is atrocious so stuff like that
is uh very impactful so if I want to put
on on more muscle which I do but not so
my thing is is honestly we were talking
about this before we started rolling
your time is finite you can only
allocate your energy to so many things
you're going through that now with
content creation versus actually
building businesses um I have the same
with building a business and building my
physique and so I always tell people you
can tell how much I care about physique
by looking at me I'm not overweight uh
but I'm also not jacked because it just
took so much time and energy to do that
um so I would like to put on more muscle
I don't want to be in the gym 2 hours a
day 6 days a week um and I know at your
Merit Clinic you guys aren't just like
hey get on trt like you guys are pretty
thoughtful but so first I want to
know it should one put off trt as long
as they can minus like symptoms that
would require that like when I heard
Rogan say that he started trt in his 30s
I was like whoa I I would continue to
push it off lest you tell me otherwise
um well the thing with it it kind of of
because again you could go by the
standards of the medical community or
even kind of the more vague
interpretation of optimization at all
kind of depends on what is important to
you so hypothetically if you wanted to
push your body harder than even
replacement you could just take
full-blown steroids if you wanted to and
it's kind of but why wouldn't we because
I'm assuming you don't recommend that or
do that's the thing is because when
you're saying should I push off trt it's
kind of like well if you're planning on
getting it on it eventually how much do
you care about forer right now um zero
okay so that's one in favor of the trt
side um then you would look at your
actual signaling to your testes and how
adequate is it or inadequate and also
what is your your actual response at the
organ itself and then you can kind of
dictate well is it deficient horribly
deficient like where do I stand on that
Spectrum to actually get me to how I
feel right now because again you have a
lot of pillars of Health that are super
dialed that are also supportive of you
you like potentially being right on the
brink of feeling not great like I don't
really know where you stand on that
Spectrum but everything is contributing
in some facet to some degree and trt
maybe it takes you up to the top of that
Spectrum maybe you're on like some guys
are teetering on like the brink of like
being subf functional in terms of not uh
having a high quality of life it kind of
depends so as much as I would love to
say you know wait 5 years or wait
specifically this amount of time it
would very much depend on a lot of
context about your own individual
situation all right so deciding when to
do trt really comes down to if it's not
disrupting my life if I'm sleeping well
if I feel good if my in fact check me if
any of these are the wrong things to
look at if my libido is high enough if I
have sort of that you know zest for life
I feel driven I'm still going probably
not the time to do it probably not so if
I want to start adding
muscle and my tea were deficient because
if that's not today it's going to be a
day soon how do I approach this do I
want to take testosterone directly do I
want precursors how do you go when
somebody comes to you and is like hey
I've tried sort of all the um basic
stuff how do I now accelerate this
personally for me it would be like a
full-blown analysis if they're actual
diet quality which could involve like
there's there's programs that you can
use online like uh there's one called
chronometer you can just plug your diet
in it'll show the actual micronutrient
density of what you're eating like how
many vitamins and minerals of each there
are in the food J reading and then from
there you can actually pinpoint if you
have a real deficiency that is
contributing or not um and then B that's
where targeted supplementation could
actually be warranted rather than just
blindly taking a bunch of stuff um so
there's that and then assessing your
what are some basic supplementation like
what's a
common yeah vitamin D huge um do you
advise that through sun exposure or
through supplementation depends on
vitamin D man because it's like modern
day is it the most conducive to vitamin
D that perhaps than it was hundreds of
years ago it's kind of I don't really
know what the answer is to that but all
I do know is I see a lot of low vitamin
D statuses these days and it's very very
prevalent and a lot of the working
environments and lifestyles are very
anti-c conducive to getting enough
vitamin D from outside so and some
people it's just like literally where
they live so maybe supplementation is
warranted says the man from Canada yeah
I have to use vitamin D myself yeah no I
can imagine I'm assuming sleep is in
there as uh one of the basics do you
consider working out as a way to spike
testosterone yeah it's kind of like uh I
fig what called the Goldilocks zone or I
don't know what the the terminology is
but basically too much of it could be
the opposite of helpful but too little
also not going to be helpful too so
having you know like a good resistance
training routine where you were focused
on trying to progressively overload and
gain strength rather than just fluff
workouts going through the motions kind
of stuff um is and that's more important
than cardio um for muscle certainly for
and muscle is going to increase my test
more than yeah building uh good muscle
focused body composition is the most
conducive to that for cardiovascular
Health having like ultimately these are
things that shouldn't be should I do one
or the other like you should be doing
both ultimately so um both are going to
be helpful but I would say making sure
at minimum you're getting in your heavy
lifts for the week the most important of
the weightlifting do you consider heavy
a rep range
thing yeah like uh in general it kind of
depends on what you are going for though
cuz some people you know they're
powerlifters and they are prioritizing
strength over hypert so the range will
differ for them but in general like
standard 8 to 12 rep ranges using
weights that you're not going to go to
complete failure on your first set but
by the last set you're hitting failure
on the last rep kind of thing and then
trying to progressively overload and add
a pound or two every single workout and
focusing on that keeping a very
regimented log book too A lot of people
will just do the same exercis and the
same weights for years on end and then
wonder why their physique doesn't change
but they have not been tracking anything
when they could have been otherwise
microloading every single time they go
in the gym like there are literally like
0.5b increment plates you can buy on
Amazon that you can just chalk on if 5
lbs is too high of an increment which is
a problem at some gyms like you have to
at some point you're going to plateau
and at that point is it reasonable to
add five pounds every time you show up
no you're going to be you know stuck
spinning your wheels a bit and that's
where using micro increments or going up
by rep you know doing another rep on the
on the set instead might be a goal but I
found those like 0.5b plates really
really helpful what about so your ize
your duration of working out I assume
you've been working out since teens or
20s yeah so for me what I found was I I
got to the point where there were just I
it was always a battle between I'm
trying to get my weights to go up but I
keep getting injured have you given how
long you've been at this are you still
like heavier lifts more reps or at some
point do you go yeah this is the weight
that I do and I'm just going to stick
here yeah for me I have prioritized
other things over body composition for a
while now like I still Jaz not nearly as
much as I was but I also it would be
unreasonable for me to expect to have
maintained my lifts at what they were
because I used to use reasonable amounts
of steroids whereas now I don't use
those so um for me though I've just uh I
try to progressively overload when I go
in the gym still um and track uh with a
log well it's not it's a app not a log
book but you can use a book or an app if
you want um but yeah I still try to
focus on the same principles but it's
certainly it's not the same weight that
I was using back in the day but it is
the same principles applied and still
trying to make progress because if
you're not trying to make progress in
the gym like you're not giving the
adequate stimulus to tell your body okay
you need to actually grow to support
this load because at some point it gets
used to what you're doing and then you
need to actually tell your body hey you
know this is an increasing Demand on
muscle so build more say support it
because you can't do it right now
so how do you I mean
you're
big like maybe not bodybuilder big but
you have very robust which I'm sure
comes across on camera even hiding under
your sweater over there um so how much
time do you have to put in to maintain
it like for somebody that really wants
to build a physique what are those
straightforward principles that you're
still
deploying maintaining is magnitudes
easier than gaining muscles
which I guess is sort of something
people can look forward to is as much as
it seems like a daunting task to build a
bunch of muscle once you're there
actually retaining it is not that
difficult um or at least I don't think
so given that you're not using a bunch
of hormones to support it um so for me
typically I can maintain my physique on
just like a few days a week um ideally
four days a week is kind of my schedule
now an hour in the gym in and out uh any
more than that our gym how many days a
week four days yeah and for me that's
just a classic split of you know chest
shoulders back another day is arms and
legs um I think I don't think I'm
missing anything there um calvs on legs
as well um if I came in during your
workout would I think you were trying to
kill yourself no I don't think so
interesting yeah it's kind of like the
minimum minimum effective volume I can
do to maintain what I have is what I do
because I also get my mental bandwidth
sapped when I go really hard in the gym
MH so if I was allocating priorities to
gaining muscle and trying to build my
physique up my volume would look
different and higher than it does at
just maintenance amount when you were
adding the muscle if I had seen you work
out would it look like you were trying
to kill yourself maybe when I'm going to
failer on the last set of each exercise
but I still do that on were you like a
guy that was like screaming in there two
hours a day what did that look like I
think that's a common misconception that
you need to be in there for hours a day
six seven days a week like even for a
bodybuilder who's a professional and is
taking copious amounts of steroids they
would probably not be in there seven
days a week for two hours interesting
yeah because at some point you're just
doing so much damage to the muscle
you're never recovering like yeah it's
called Junk volume when you're just
going above and beyond what you need and
it's almost like anti-h helpful that's
interesting so where is The Sweet Spot
you get a guy he's a total dweeb what do
we do so uh let's start Natty and then
maybe we'll we'll Veer in a second but
so starting him off Supernatural but we
we need to get this kid jacked no
[ __ ] around we have 18 months to do
it so one how many pounds if we he does
whatever you tell him he eats what you
tell him he sleeps when you tell him he
micronutrients all of it this kid is
religious he does exactly what you tell
him to do what is that going to look
like for him like what do we what do we
start him off with probably figure out
what his maintenance calories is which
is how much he needs to eat to not
either gain or lose weight 2000 okay so
that's super low but anyway let's just
say you need a number yeah so 2,000 it's
probably going to be closer to 3,000
really what yeah for maintenance for a
guy who's exercising regularly and is
Young this is because he's going to work
out yeah if you were just sedentary and
doing absolutely nothing then you're
just basically expending energy for your
like movements sitting down like your
fidgets and stuff which is a lower
calorie amount I think it's called a non
exercise or non-activity exercise
thermogenesis or something it's like
your neat calories it's how much you're
going to expend just by functioning as a
human and then on top of that is all
your activity which you then factor in
for your caloric intake what's the
average person 21y old guy what's the
average 21 year old guy uh I think when
you if they are working out and
exercising their maintenance might fall
between like 2700 to 3,000 wow yeah okay
so our guys at that let's say but now
we're going to get him in the gym how
many days a week I would start with four
probably Monday Wednesday Friday Sunday
so every other day would be fine
interesting yeah okay so now we get him
in the gym are we using your split which
you said was back CH sorry shoulders
chest back what did you do on back day
back it was just back yeah it kind of
for me just back or back buys I do just
back but really do you get buys their
own day or do you treat arms on the same
day one day your mix is weird walk me
through it again again it would depend
on what your weak points are so if it's
a newbie it's totally different for me
like for example my shoulders are my
dominant body part so I just shove it at
the end of chest a and I barely because
your shoulders grow easily yeah and they
maintain easily too so I don't really
put that much volume into them so for me
it's a dictation of my weekly volume
based on how much I can actually
allocate before I'm fatigued and then I
distribute that volume accordingly based
on the body parts that need more
attention so I have a terrible chest so
I do more on chest versus delts I barely
touch them so for a newbie I'm angry
with you right now I just want to I want
the record to reflect well maybe you
have a better Gest your shoulders are
beast mode Okay Okay so we've we've got
the kid it's every other day yeah we're
going to allocate his energy based on
what he sucks at for now it's like
figuring out what he sucks at is
impossible if he's never done it so I
would just do like basic you know the
compound three lifts you know bench
squat dead lift I would allocate those
to you know squat on your leg day dead
lift on your back day bench breast on
your chest day and then you know fill in
other complimentary exercises depending
on you know I would probably start him
on really low volume to begin with and
then see how much he can handle um is it
so fatiguing that it's like affecting
his next workout where he's not
performing as well and you kind of like
micro adjust from there but starting
with just you know a few really strong
exercises like it's not rocket science
you do like three to four sets of each
eight to 12 reps whatever you can handle
but actually the thing is is sometimes
coaches
will need the clients to send videos of
doing the exercise because their
interpretation of what going hard enough
is actually not going hard enough so me
just telling him to 8 to 12 reps like I
don't actually know that he's going hard
enough I think a good Target is by the
last set of that exercise you are
hitting failure by like the tail end of
that set so like your last rep is almost
impossible for you to do and you need to
spot her essentially should you be able
to walk out of the gym normally if
you're leg day or should you on your
first leg day ever you will be a [ __ ]
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yeah but that's just cuz it's a virgin
muscle not the first time I so I very
consciously went from I don't work out
to I work out like a demon yeah and ah
no one gave me that warning and so I put
photos of Hugh Jackman this is like PQ
Jackman Wolverine okay I've got him
plastered everywhere I'm going to look
like Q Jackman I'm going all in so go in
go so hard that if I sat in a chair for
more than five minutes when I would get
back up I would have to stop stretch
before I could walk again it was Unreal
but that became my Benchmark I didn't
want to get that far because that that
actually made it hard to move um but I
remember one time at the end of a
workout so this is I was very poor at
the time and my driver side car door
didn't unlock so you had to unlock the
passenger side door reach across and
unlock the driver side and I had just
done chest and chest shoulders tries
which I would do on the same day
and I put my arm down on the seat to
reach across to unlock it and my arm
just it like gave way and it fell in my
face and I was like that's when you know
you've worked out hard enough or was
that stupid and that was just we're now
into it's moving me backwards yeah I
think it's kind of hard to say oh you
went too hard to a newbie because
they're super sore on day one I think
that's kind of expected but they don't
need to do as much as almost anyone else
who has been actively doing it for years
because such a little stimulus is needed
to achieve growth at that point that you
can get away with much less volume at
the start and still get your newbie
gains going so it's kind of like you
know there's no magic number um but um
yeah if you walk out on your leg day
like honestly after three sets of squats
on your first leg day ever you're
probably going to be sore even if you're
a newbie if you actually like went close
to failure that's just expected from a
virgin muscle so I wouldn't read too
much into it unless you were literally
doing like I don't know 20 sets of body
part or something that would be way
overkill for a newbie um if they were
just start well maybe not way Overkill
kind of depends on again how hard are
you going on those sets right so he's
only got 18 months though so Ball Park
me if 20 is probably too many sets per
body part what is the he's doing what
Derek tells him to do yeah I think um
maybe like again this is just like a
ballpark number but maybe like 60 sets a
week and then the last allocating those
between the four workouts and again like
the split if it's two 60 sets per week
per body part total split across how all
the days and if that was too intense for
somebody too they could technically
split one of those days into another day
in itself like chest and shoulders a lot
of people they need their
shoulders or their chest not like some
supporting body parts might be fatigued
that otherwise would warrant separating
that body part into a separate day like
for you obviously triceps are not going
to do as well by the time you get to
them after you've done a bunch of bench
breaths and stuff so for a newbie after
he's hit his you know failure set on
bench and then you tell him to go do
what's his like main compound tricep
exercise that he might be doing maybe
he's doing if he does a close grip bench
breast or something like good luck
you're going to get zero out of that
because you're so destroyed at that
point so that's where you know a
separate arm day might make sense so how
you split that up again like there's so
many free programs online from people
who are reputable in the space with uh
work programs and whatnot so um I think
it's pretty easy and accessible to find
that now but ultimately like 60 70 sets
a week if you can handle it 80 but like
I think that'd be a good starting point
and just separating that across four or
five days depending on how you want to
do the split if you want to have a you
know a separate shoulder Day from your
chest day or not it kind of depends
again on your time and whatnot but um
and then yeah just going into failure in
your last exercise of uh the set and
it's uh not that complicated and make
make sure you get your body weight and
protein per day in grams um and if it's
not that complicated why do so few
people have
physiques um because I think a lot of
unrealistic standards are putting being
put out there by people in the industry
that walk around you know with 200 total
T's who are natural that maintain these
absurdly low body fat percentages and
then also guys who were on steroids and
you know are very forthcoming or not
forthcoming about the why would that
make so I'm going to I'll give a counter
argument they're lazy okay so put it
this way you thought the Hugh Jackman
2001 physique was great ask anyone in
the fitness industry if that was good
they'd be like that guy's skinny
fat yeah not kidding okay interesting
but let's take this headon so I don't
think it's bad role models I think it's
laziness you think it's unrealistic
expect why would that stop somebody from
getting a physique because they give up
yeah I just think there are a lot of
there's a lot of skewing of what people
see as a good physique now as opposed to
I think they could achieve the huge
Jackman 2001 naturally and with you know
most people could probably do that it's
just there is so much saturation of
Fitness industry physiques now that it
has anyone who's kind of following that
I don't know niche of content and maybe
it is a bit more of a subsection so
maybe it is only a certain subsection of
people that have the work perception
including myself but it certainly is
inflating what is perceived to be good
so I think again the people who aren't
achieving somewhat assembl so we're
arguing about the word good yeah uh
which is all subjective yeah yeah yeah
okay
so fair but I will say I very quickly
got into a bodybuilding universe so I
know the most like distorted physiques
ever and I remember one time coming into
work and showing my partners like I want
to look this guy on the cover of
whatever uh body building magazine uh I
was like I want to look like this and
they were like guaranteed that guy's
Photoshop they're like there's no
Universe in which even with drugs that
somebody has a chest that bubbly and but
even that like having something to aim
at having something that excited me so
much the idea of being able to one day
look like that even though there was no
Universe in which I was ever going to
get there because it was Photoshop
probably steroids plus Photoshop like
really like extreme extreme it still was
EXC in and so it got me to go into the
gym and so when I look at the people
that I love that and especially when I
used to be leaner and bigger people used
to come up to me all the time like what
do you do what do you eat all that and I
was as natural as they come which is why
my physique was Me by most people's like
a high level guy be like this guy's a
joke he's [ __ ] tiny and he's fat uh
but I felt really good and so people
would come up to me a lot what do you do
how do you eat like how do you get that
physique
and my answer was always like it's
pretty basic in terms of like getting
lean and getting big or two separate
things so let's make sure we separate
those out I first got muscle and then I
leaned down and I did it really stupidly
and nobody should take my advice but you
can I'm walking around with the results
so that is what it is but my thing was
like the only hard part here is actually
not eating the thing that you want to
eat and then actually doing the Reps and
being willing to be like oh I think I'm
about to throw up so if you can do that
like you're going to get the physiques
yeah I would argue that you probably
don't need to work to feeling like
you're throwing up though as well so
maybe that might even be putting people
who are completely new hearing you say
that they're like oh like no chance I'm
doing that now maybe on like a heavy
squat or a leg press I'm certainly
wasn't asking myself that every day I'm
too lazy for that yeah so yeah like
honestly there is a most people that
don't have the physique that is the peak
of their genetic potential is out of
lack of willpower and adherence to
something consistently ultimately so
it's not like oh I'm not going to work
out because of this insane expectation I
would never reach it's also laziness too
but it depends on the person I was just
saying you know the the celebrity goal
physique is often times unattainable
because it's not realistic interesting
so we'll get to that in a second there's
something I want to ask you about that
specifically but first do you regret
doing hardcore steroids no because it
made me very aware of my health and
learning more about optimization and
skewed me in the direction I am now
which is a lot more uh it's not
necessarily longevity focused because
again circling back to the first
discussion we had about should you take
trt or not there's like absolutely
something to be said about
if you wanted to push your body as long
as you're aware of the give and take
relationship of the pros and cons of it
you don't necessarily have to do
anything within the confines of what is
socially acceptable so if you were
wanting to take a [ __ ] ton of steroids
like you you could it would just be
unhealthy but there is potentially some
level of well maybe I want to push my
body a little bit and maybe it takes a
couple years off my life but maybe the
quality of life is significantly better
via this so for me it's uh I don't know
I try to
gauge these things in a more what I deem
to be realistic way because I want a
high quality of life too so I I feel
like I've experienced the aggressive
polar extreme of I am deteriorating my
body for this extreme outcome that is
basically just cosmetically pleasing and
is inflating my ego and then on the
other side of the spectrum I'm very
aware of the longevity research and the
anti-aging stuff be as frail and gaunt
as you can until the last day you die
but you live to 100 so great [ __ ] job
I want to kind of meet in the middle
that's where I'm at so having that I
don't know the education or learning
about both sides has been very helpful
and educational to me personally and I
think helps me impart that knowledge on
I don't know the people who are
interested that follow my
stuff but do you is do you think there
is a moral case against people doing
steroids like do you have no problem hey
you understand this going to shorten
your life a little bit but hey if you're
good I'll walk you through how to do it
well like are you unconflicted you give
that advice or is there a little like
well there's obviously some Nuance
especially now that I have a tele
medicine platform and things like some
people might think oh he's trying to
like promote taking hormones via the
clinic or like I I feel like I'm pretty
I've remained unbiased in that even from
the business side of things like I would
prefer people get the full context of
their situation before they hap azard
jump on hormones cuz for us like we make
money on services and blood work
education of our patients not
necessarily just here's a script of test
and ask result this that get out the
door and we'll just make our money on
the medication like that's not how we do
business so for me it's always been
about the education and I don't really
care what people do as long as they are
educated about it ideally before they go
into it like when I was younger and I
started taking gear steroids I wish I
knew a lot of the stuff I know now in
hindsight and that is kind of the I
don't know manifestation of a lot of my
content is stemmed from my experiences
with that and what I wish I knew and
education you wish you knew back then
what do I wish I knew yeah um
mainly the impacts on the cardiovascular
system um that that it deforms the heart
yeah it's uh morphology and function
like the shape size function of it all
can be very significantly impacted from
basic negligence on something as simple
as your blood pressure not being
modulated or assessing it like some
people don't even check it and little
bit walking around like stage two
hypertension perpetually because the
drugs they're on and then they end up
with a heart attack at you know 35 years
old or younger I've seen people dying in
their 20s Jesus from that well
indirectly but it's because of the
downstream effects of that so and the
problem too is when I first started
bodybuilding and getting heavily into
learning about performance nancing drugs
and whatnot there was this sentiment
that went around the industry like where
are the bodies and it wasn't very
documented who's dying because it was
not very highlighted social media wasn't
really like prominent and it just really
wasn't talked about that much and
typically the only people that get
reported on that die are big names in
the industry so a lot of people like
bodybuilding wasn't like a mainstream
sport anyways if you can even call it a
sport and it just wasn't really being
noted and you often times couldn't
attribute a death solely to steroid use
anyways because if somebody dies at 40
it's like oh genetic predisposition or
this or that and it's like well yeah but
the steroids plus the genetic
predisposition make it way worse so yeah
it's uh stuff I wish was more uh it's
the problem though is that education
didn't exist too so it's you know I wish
I had it but it wasn't really readily
available as well so that's kind of
where I think now is great because
people at least who are jumping into
this stuff have education at their
fingertips for free letting them know
know hey this is the reality of this
stuff if you're going to go down that
path and it's not risk-free and here are
the very real manifestations of risk
profile that you could expect in the
coming years and if you're going to do
it anyways how to try and attenuate that
risk as much as you
can why does it piss you off when people
lie about
steroids doesn't really piss me off I
just think it's like disingenuous and
often times it kind of depends on the
person in the context but if you're
trying to sell a product or service that
is marketed around your physique and
then you are heavily implying that it is
solely your workout program or solely
your the coaching or whatever it's like
yeah these things are obviously the
underpinnings of how you built the
physique but like you also would be 30
lounds lighter if you weren't on
steroids so I feel like there's an
obligation to at least give that context
like hey by the way this is also in the
equation for me and this is why I look
the way I do cuz it could otherwise be
misleading if you're this guy walking
around who's this Larger than Life
Persona and people are trying to Aspire
to be like and you're also selling
workout programs or what have you and
then you are or supplements or what
whatever it is and you were not being
transparent and forthcoming about hey
like this is what I do but I also do
this other stuff which is massively
impactful on the end
outcome would you have full respect for
uh an influencer coach whatever that
that was like okay here here's my
workout routine I hope you sign up it's
going to be amazing uh here's the gear
that I take and uh I've got here you
know 30 people that have taken my course
they're all natural you can look at
their results not as cool as me because
I'm on the gear so I look way better
would you be like yeah [ __ ] yeah or
would you still be like oh
God there's gear involved and even
though he's being honest it's just not
as cool no it's fine as long as you're
just again it's like realistic
expectations if you're marketing it as
if you are representing your out end
outcome as an expectable and repeatable
process when it's just not without
hormone augmentation that's where it
gets murky if you're an enhanced guy and
you just have good information on diet
but you don't talk about your drugs too
like I don't really have a problem with
it necessarily it's more when you're
representing an outcome that is tied to
something you're lying about is more the
issue so often times you know it's kind
of irrelevant to me personally okay so
now my real question that all this is
pre amplitude do you think it's cheating
in sports if people do um
performance-enhancing drugs if it's
against the rules of their sport like it
depends like Brazilian jiu-jitsu for
example rampant steroid use but it's
kind of unspoken that the majority of
people are just using drugs they can
it's that is like the most finicky
conversation in that sport because it's
technically not banned via you're not
getting tested but it's also somewhat
frowned upon if you're you know the
Gearhead and maybe not everyone else you
know if if you if you're natural and
you're competing against guys on gear
like obviously you're going to think
there's an uneven playing field in a
sport that is actually regulated and
tested according to water standards or
whatever it is yeah like cheating is
cheating so it's just a very very
prominent thing that still Happ you
wouldn't like the double standard so
it's like uh nobody's getting tested
still think maybe it's not ideal because
it it isn't like you know what people
are doing or you know what the rules are
so it still could create an uneven
playing field definitely hated in a
sport where they say you can't and so if
there are people that are finding a way
around it that's really shitty so I'm
all for a world where uh we just say hey
that we have these exogenous substances
that people can take and instead of
drawing a line I just want it to be out
in the open yeah and so that there is no
double standard so that people can
decide whether they want to do it but
like
for take something like BJJ or cycling
and I'm not an expert man and so who the
hell knows like how many people actually
do it or not but for me hearing that oh
yeah everybody's doing the blood doping
or whatever in the tour to France I
don't go oh now the tour to France isn't
cool I go damn like these guys go hard
like they're taking their blood out of
their body they're hyper oxygenating it
they're putting it back in and it's like
I might say I think that's pretty dumb
because of the high risk and like the
odds of you dying are just astronomical
but man I want to see I want to see
humans push themselves now I get though
that what I'm saying like hey that walks
a line do we want kids emulating that do
we want to put that out there so is
there like is this just Tom not having
thought enough about it or is it like
hey once you get into the professional
leagues let people push themselves it's
tough man because it's like I don't
think there's a definitive answer to
that and many debates could be had about
it I think that sport is entertainment
at the end of the day so it comes down
to a debate as to well if you want to
make it as entertaining as possible
obviously s Everyone to the gills that
would be the logical answer if you
wanted the max entertainment factor and
then it comes after that it's like well
do you want to be encouraging drug use
among the youth to then aspire to be
like fill-in the blank professional
athlete you know if they're going to be
getting paid this much is that something
that they should just take that risk in
order to get that
outcome I don't have the answer man it's
interesting it's interesting cuz yeah I
I definitely don't want to encourage
kids to do it that one really scares me
yeah um but at the same time when you
get into the professional leagues so
many people are doing it I would rather
just see like what's the truth of what
people are doing so obviously the Conor
McGregor thing is utterly fascinating
he's allowed to step out of the testing
pool and as long as he gets tested for 6
months he can come back in now I don't
know [ __ ] about like steroid use but it
looks like he's probably yeah uh been
doing something he sort of admitted as
much indirectly seemingly and my thing
is I don't have a beef with that yeah me
NE I you know if it's conducive to his
injury recovery and it gets him out
there quicker like if it's within the
confines of the rules like go for it I
think just a lot of people I don't know
if he became aware of this rule through
like his connections or whatnot or like
finagling it in some special way that he
was kind of given more leniency or if
it's just you know his location it makes
it more problematic and harder to test
them because they have to Outsource
people who test on behalf of usata in
Ireland who really knows but you know at
the end of the day there's hormone use
in seemingly all sports yeah yeah it's
interesting even as I'm giving my own
answer it you can like hear yourself say
and then almost debate against yourself
yeah well so the thing the the right
question is do you want kids doing that
and that I definitely do not especially
because you get parents that want to see
their there was a kid that I went to
middle school and high school with now I
don't know him well enough to I would
certainly not say his name in case I'm
wrong about this but what I heard was
that he was on steroids now when I say
this kid had density of muscle at 12 I'm
talking it was
Unreal and
that always worried me that if that was
true that that was pressure from his
parents and wasn't I just can't fathom
how at 12 how do you even get steroids
but he he was a freak and um he he was I
think he was like 5'8 and he could high
jump seven feet it was unreal unreal and
so that that worries me that he has
potentially if it's true done you know
longlasting damage and I have to imagine
that parents were involved yeah I
remember tons of guys in my high school
that would take year for really yeah is
that just because you're so young it
seemed
so yeah for football trying to get a
good uh scholarship to a college or
university that is going to get them
further in their aspirations and you
know it's uh pretty obvious when
somebody shows up to gym class and all
of a sudden he can bench 50 more pounds
within six weeks Jesus yeah that's
interesting now BJJ guys don't see I
don't pay enough attention but I don't
think a BJJ guys is having physiques so
are they doing it for Recovery or are
they all jacked and I just don't pay
enough attention body weight is very
very important for moving people around
and again I'm not a BJJ expert by any
means but obviously if you're a
heavyweight the more muscle you have on
the easier you can in part and like get
that is that broken down into weight
classes yeah but there it's there's
deviations between them and ranges so
obviously if you're at the top end of
your weight class it's more ideal than
being at the bottom or the middle and
the more you can push a guy around and
use your weight to your advantage hugely
impactful obviously Force production
hugely impactful too on anything to do
with manipulating somebody else's body
who's fighting against you um oxygen
carrying capacity significantly
increased when you're on androgens
really yeah there's a lot of benefits
from it like you could like it
stimulates the release of epo as well
thp R thr potin so like never heard of
that really it's like the main drug used
by cyclists or it was anyway when I say
this is not my world I F the precursor
to actually making new red blood cells
yeah so increasing your oxygen carrying
capacity in sport obviously like broad
spectrum beneficial in essentially
anything you're doing with the exception
of like I don't know archery or
something and there's drug use in that
too beta blockers
for what anxiety if you can slow your
heart rate and calm down way easier to
shoot a Target wa yeah and if you use
certain beta blockers that cross the
bloodb brain barrier like Propranolol
you can actually like very significantly
calm yourself down and get like an an
anotic like anti-anxiety effect so it's
uh very common among public speakers um
pianists also using it interesting yeah
a lot of people use beta blockers drugs
worry me but at the same time I'm not
like if I needed a drug I would take a
drug I'm just trying to limit the number
of times that I need a drug whether it's
Tylenol
Advil anything I try to limit the amount
but that's from a longevity standpoint
not from a like I want to see people
perform at their best see it's
interesting though because it's like
there's definitely something to be said
about some genetic risk factors are so
aggressive and unique that pharmacology
may be the only way to attenuate your
risk for longevity purposes so if you
had familial hyper cholesterolemia for
example are you going to avoid taking a
cholesterol or lipid modulating
medication yes okay but am I wrong I
mean maybe here's the thing I I don't
I'm not coming from a place of superior
knowledge I'm coming from a place of
paranoia and so I'm just like oh I get
it but like whenever people take drugs
there are second and third order
consequences that we're not thinking
about and so that's the thing that
worries me I don't have a a moral
compunction with it but it's like if I
can avoid it it's just weighing the ROI
so it's like is whatever benefit I could
get out of the drug going to outweigh
the potential side effect burden even in
the trt side of things especially the
side effect burden that we don't yet
understand yeah that's the one that
worries me thing though is is some
people have genetic predispositions that
you know you're not functioning
correctly if you have a complete
deficiency in the production of an
enzyme for example are you're not going
to take a drug that might facilitate
this function because I want to be
natural like I feel like that would be
potentially moronic that would be
moronic in my estimation yeah anything
where I felt like it was impacting the
quality of my life or if I really
believe like from a longevity standpoint
I'm actually going to live longer based
on the well in fact I was going to say
based on my you know genetic limitation
or problem or whatever but do you know
much about Rapa yeah okay so Rapa I
there were people real