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who has it worse right now boys or girls
depends which domain you're looking at
if you look at how like boys are doing
in school and college clearly they're
doing worse and some aspects of mental
health I think it's pretty clear that
girls are doing worse you've seen a
recent spike in depression and anxiety
among teenage girls along with a big
rise in male suicide so that's again
another difference and then when you get
into the labor market look there's all
kinds of issues that face young men and
young women differently and so right now
I think the most honest thing to do is
to just say that girls and boys young
men and young women are struggling in
different ways in different domains of
life and I just can't call it right now
I don't think it's obvious some people
think it's obvious one way or the other
I don't think it's obvious that one is
suffering more than the other I think
it's more honest to say that boys and
girls are struggling in different ways
and perhaps at different points in their
life one thing I really want to
understand about this so for a long time
it just everybody took it as
self-evident that women were where we
needed to Target there were structural
issues that were creating major problems
that were I think the way that most
people talk about it is there were
breaks put on women and that we now live
in the era where breaks have been taken
off and I think a pretty typical
narrative is that as we took the breaks
off women we have done something bad to
men and boys
I I will be honest that I'm just
beginning to really explore this so
somebody that doesn't have kids so a lot
of the ideas that I will put forth today
to get your sort of Sanity check against
are are me at the initial point of my
thinking
but it does not feel like this is a you
take the breaks off women and men
suddenly fall apart scenario but it does
seem to be tied to what the evolutionary
reason for what have become gender
stereotypes like is this a societal
structure issue or is it a biology issue
I love your analogy of like taking the
breaks off right
um because and those but those breaks
were put on in some ways deliberately
right there was an injustice in what was
happening to girls and women so that
that to me is a societal statement that
yes because I have a hypothesis that
this did not begin as a societal problem
that this began as a biological problem
and when you're in the red and tooth and
Claw issue that those things are gonna
spring up in that way well I think what
happened in some ways you've got you've
got it with the rolls thing so if we
just go let's say about 50 years right
when or 50 or 60 years when not very
many women went to college right was
that because they weren't as good at
high school no they were doing as well
at high school was it because women
couldn't succeed at college no so why
weren't women going to college well
because that wasn't seen as appropriate
or necessary or useful for them because
after all their main role was going to
be as wives and mothers and so to some
extent going to college was you know if
anything you know just a luxury and in
fact all the women who did go to college
back in the 70s most of them were
married within a year of graduating
right imagine that right it's a
completely different world and so we are
by ascribing very tight roles that were
based on biology to men and women we
actually put the brakes on and we
basically said what female education is
kind of a waste of time and money
because they're just going to be wives
and mothers once we took those breaks
off in a way that I think was both
necessary and Justified
that allowed the kind of natural
advantages of women and girls to show up
in the education system and so in a
sense to use your analogy again you took
the breaks off women what happened was
it turned out that they could drive the
car faster once you take the brakes off
and so they went past men so it's
actually a bigger Gap or in American
higher education today than there was 50
years ago in 1972 when Title IX was
passed it's just flipped so women are
further ahead of men today on college
campuses than men were ahead of women in
1972 so there's been extraordinary
reversal in education and this biology
culture question is is really I think
you're right at the heart of a lot of
this and so let me let me be a bit
unfair to both sides one side says well
we're biologically different we have
different reproductive roles and so
we're never going to be equal and this
is how women are supposed to be and this
is how men are supposed to be
on the other side no no biology has no
influence at all uh everything's
socialized genders are construct uh
which underpins the patriarchy so let's
just kind of all enter the androgynous
future
and the reality of course is somewhere
in the middle biology does matter and it
matters in all kinds of ways affect men
and boys differently to women and girls
but culture is the way that our biology
or biological differences is expressed
right so I don't know just to choose one
example aggression right
our boys and men more aggressive than
women and girls yes
and is that biological
yes
right there's this huge gap in violence
at 17 months 18 months now it's possible
that one and a half year olds have
picked up the cues from a society that
says it's okay for boys to hit each
other in the face but not okay for girls
to hit each other in the face but I'm
skeptical that we've socialized them
that strongly by 18 months to explain
this massive difference when was that
study done I don't know it's a good
question I would say that the the tenor
on that societally has shifted so far
right that if that were anywhere in the
last 10 or 15 years like there's no way
that's coming from culture in my
estimation like right the way that
people look at me when I say that my mom
spanked me and thank God is like I said
that you know she put me in the ICU so
there's been a real cultural shift in
that and there's much less fighting in
schools now as well actually
interestingly
um you know most American parents even
today you know engage in some kind of
physical punishment of their children I
was really surprised yeah I was I looked
at this for Brookings like 10 years well
eight years ago because I got interested
and I was just kind of astonished by how
common it is because if you live in a
bubble of upper class upper middle class
people it's like absolutely verboten
there was this there was this book a
year ago was called the slap or
something like that which was like it
was basically the whole premise of the
book was what happened when one parent
hit their kid in front of other parents
and all the ripples from that right can
you imagine that that would make a kind
of book and so sure culture has changed
in ways that we can argue about whether
they're positive or negative but the
underlying point is that there are these
biological differences so let's say
aggression then the question is do you
live in a society where being aggressive
expressing that aggression is good or
bad in some societies through human
history you bet absolutely
today
not so much right it's probably you know
if if you get up now if I say something
offends you and you come over here and
punch me in the face even I would be
very surprised if I did that yeah yes I
don't think the people watching this
would be like yeah absolutely fantastic
great cage fight they've been like what
is wrong with him Will Smith and pretty
pretty dark great for example different
people responded differently I thought
everyone was going to roundly condemn it
and while largely yes I was startled
that there was there were people that
were like yeah you had to come here yeah
the point I'm trying to make here is
that
how our culture encourages discourages
incentivizes disincentivisers it rewards
or doesn't reward certain biological
traits is hugely important and a good
feminist argument would be that let's
say that women do more care work than
men raising children and other kinds of
care work and let's say that's partly
because of differences in biology let's
just say that's true does that mean that
work is less valuable should be lower
status should be worth paid well yes if
you think women's work is worth less but
know if you think that just because it's
women's work doesn't make it work any
less and so there is a feminist argument
that care work is predominantly female
work and that it should be paid much
better and rewarded much better that's
where the kind of wages for housework
movement came from
so we have to think about biology and
culture as co-evolving and most
importantly recognizing biological
differences doesn't make culture less
important it makes it more important
because culture is how we learn how to
express or not express these Tendencies
or when it's appropriate to express them
and when it's not appropriate to express
them
yeah very well said so there were a lot
of things that you said in there that I
want to go back and address so the first
is this idea of wives and mothers as a
throwaway comment so uh or our throwaway
category so my wife who and I I should
set the stage for people that are seeing
me for the first time because they're
attracted to you and your work uh so my
wife and I have no kids my wife is the
quote unquote boss [ __ ] like super
hardcore very talented entrepreneur been
very successful
um and she was once standing in line uh
at a restaurant with another woman and
they just started talking
and the woman asked my wife what she did
she was explaining you know wrong
companies blah blah blah no one was like
oh wow my wife was like what do you do
and she said oh I'm just a mother and my
wife was like yo hold the phone now my
wife has decided not to have kids but
she has just crazy amounts of respect
and quite frankly gratitude to other
women that do and so I I will my wife
doesn't say these words but she shares a
sentiment when I meet parents I always
thank them for their service which by
the way thank you for yourself and I
mean that completely on ironically like
I'm very grateful that very thoughtful
caring loving people have kids and raise
them well we just need that as a society
and I couldn't do what I did if other
people weren't out there having children
so the idea of like oh wives and mothers
as if that weren't something that should
be venerated and so I think the central
thing that you and I are gonna you will
hopefully help me shape my thinking on
this because you've thought much more
deeply about it but I come at it and I'm
like oh there there's a nuclear or bomb
in the center of this discussion and
very few people are talking about it
which is birth control and so my
hypothesis goes something like this we
have
we have reached a moment of Crisis which
I know you you don't love when people
use the hyperbolic uh yeah but but I
would say something pretty dramatic is
happening right now that I think it
warrants that language if for no other
reason than to get people to pay
attention but I think this is all an
echo uh this is largely an echo let me
be somewhat careful in my speech here
this is largely an echo of birth control
so you you get this idea of you said
okay if we value parenting and raising
children and women are doing that then
they should be effectively compensated
it's not the exact words that you use
but
my initial reaction to that is not all
value can or should be captured
financially so just because it's this
insanely important thing does not mean
that we should be paying to do it right
and the re and you can even think that
the the family unit effectively is
paying the person to do that if if they
are truly within the home being equal
and so this is something I've earned my
stripes on this with my wife for eight
years of our marriage my wife didn't
work but I was like you are my equal in
every way but we have very different
roles now ended up changing over time
but same idea we've just everything for
us has always been equal so in some ways
they are being paid but at a
governmental level which is what I think
people mean they want the government
effectively to come in and pay and this
is where this [ __ ] starts to Nest inside
of like these crazy ideas but just to
get at the complexity of why I think
this is falling apart in this moment so
birth control changes the dynamic women
start flooding into the workforce
they're now in control of whether they
need to be at home with kids or not and
then we have this other idea which is
that basically
um the miracle of
the way that the modern world works is
not in production to use uh you know a
Marxist term but instead is in the
redistribution and once you my
hypothesis goes once you start thinking
that the miracle is the redistribution
then you forget that as you start to
redistribute then all the people that
would rise up that are entrepreneurial
minded they stop doing that and all of a
sudden there is nothing left to
redistribute and so getting this moment
right and understanding the the really
foundational dynamic between men and
women I think becomes incredibly
important
so
if we were to try to recognize the
contributions of women by through a
financial instrument I think we're just
absolutely headed for disaster so how do
we recognize the contributions of
something that is incredibly important
okay so I I agree with you the control
of fertility was a cultural Game Changer
especially for women right that was the
there's no question that effective birth
control has been one of the most
significant changes in the in the
culture of of human societies and most
importantly because by allowing women to
control their fertility it allowed them
to become more full economic
participants in the labor market I'm
thinking here about a kind of more
recent capitalist labor market economy
and the central goal of the post-war
women's movement was to secure economic
independence for women so if you read
Margaret Mead Gloria Steinem Etc they
will say and they said things like the
purpose is to make marriage a choice
not a necessity so that women could
stand economically on their own two feet
and of course affect a birth control was
an important way in which women could do
that as well as educational success so
your alarm Bells go after when you hear
that because mine do
which bit of it that you're already
creating a problem for yourself the
second you if you find a fence in the
middle of the woods do not tear that
fence down until you understand why that
fence was okay Chesterton yeah I always
forget the guy's name yes thank you so
my the underlying thing that you are
being very gracious to let me think
through out loud is that Evolution has
created something a dynamic between men
and women right that can can become
pathological and become tyrannical yeah
for sure yes but there there's an
underlying something there and so I'll
use at this is maybe dangerous of
oversimplifying but I will use my own
relationship to my wife as an example of
why that moment to me is something that
people need to stop before we just throw
out the oh maybe marriage should be the
same nobody needs to do and it's like P
I want people to do it by choice a
hundred percent I don't want anybody to
be forced in a marriage I can think of
nothing worse I've just have a recurring
nightmare about ending up in a Loveless
marriage
but
when I think I once and I'm not a crier
man but I once wept in front of my wife
because I was like this was before we
started this company and she stepped out
front became an entrepreneur and I was
like the world is never going to
understand that I would not be able to
do what I do without you like you have
made me a better person
and that makes me ask the question
it feels to me like men and women need
to come together I I so I I agree that
we're in a moment now of massive flux
and uncertainty and the one result of
that is to leave men in particular very
uncertain of their role in this new
Society so the securing of Greater
economic independence for women
I think has been the greatest economic
Liberation in global human history so in
the US today 40 of women now earn more
than the average man
in 1979 it was 13 of women so it's not
as we don't have absolute gender
equality in the labor market yet but my
God in the last 50 years have we seen
this extraordinary change and so Steinem
and Mead and others have to some extent
achieved their goal which is women will
not need to be with a man in order to
feed their kids have a home Etc and of
course the welfare state has stepped in
as well so that's securing that
separation that's like I don't need a
man anymore materially has been very
significantly achieved and you're right
birth control was part of the story that
is where we are
now and I'm glad that's where we are and
when I use my I'll use my own marriage
as an example of this which is my wife
and I have actually taken it in turns
essentially to be more of the kind of
Breadwinner and more of the carer when
we've been raising our children we were
absolutely determined we would raise our
kids ourselves it's not that we never
had any help but we're not going to be
this kind of too professional career
full-time Nanny you know see the kids at
the weekend couple we were not going to
do that and actually there have been
periods where like my wife has been full
on and I've been at home raising the
kids and vice versa
What a Wonderful World where we had that
choice my parents didn't have that
choice when my dad lost his job there
was no possibility that my mum was going
to be able to say it's okay I'll do the
breadwinning for a bit you do the kids
just it was impossible she didn't have
the economic power to do that it was all
him
that's not true for our generation and
that's a huge gain not only for women
but also for men however
does that come with consequences about
how we think about male and female roles
about marriage about mating about child
rearing about fertility oh yes it's a
massive change and I think there's a
tendency sometimes to just to not
recognize that fundamentally altering
the economic relation between men and
women
is huge culturally sociologically in
almost every way imaginable like you
don't do that and not have massive
consequences I want to hear about those
consequences which you go through in the
book in an amazing way so what are the
consequences well the first one is of
course that women don't have to have a
man in order to survive and so one
result of that is that 40 of kids in the
US are now born outside marriage
and most kids born to non-college
educated Americans are born outside of
marriage
and so the and one reason that we've
seen this really big increase in the the
share of kids being born outside
marriage and this is work from The Joint
economic committee it was led by my my
friend Scott Winship at the AEI is the
decline in shotgun marriages
so actually if you look back to kind of
60s and 70s there were there was a very
high percentage of births took place
less than nine months after the wedding
it was a real thing well June carbon has
this number which is like 30 of first
births around 1961 within something like
that wow so it was non-trivial right so
uh the point is it was a lot
so it wasn't that people weren't
necessarily kind of having sex before
marriage and getting pregnant before
marriage it was that if you had sex and
you got pregnant The Next Step was get
married that's almost fallen away now
there isn't this sense of like well
we're having a kid together I have to
get married and here I want to actually
be really fair to the conservative
critics from the 1970s so I went back
and you read these these folks including
like this uh George Gilda who was the
misogynist of the year I think two years
running I mean it was incredible he was
ended up being one of Reagan's advisors
and he and then others Jeff dent and
others they argued that if women secured
economic independence in the way that
the women's movement wanted that
actually that would basically make men
redundant right if men didn't have that
role of kind of provider they would have
they would be they would effectively
become Surplus to requirements and men
who are Surplus to requirements are very
dangerous in human history this is what
Joe Henrik calls the math problem of
surplus men Surplus men are bad news for
society they maraud around they're very
violent they're very risk-taking and so
the conservatives were saying if the
women's movement gets his way we're
going to have Madden max style bands of
marauding Violent Men setting fire to
everything Etc
in fact the opposite has happened we've
seen a drop over the last few decades in
violent crime drop and expressed
aggression Etc I think largely because
of the internet I think actually what's
happened is that far from kind of
running out and setting fire to things a
lot of these men are retreating
stereotypically to the basement maybe to
video games and pornography so there's
this kind of very weird and provocative
thought I sometimes have that maybe the
screens are kind of saving us
from the worst consequences of this kind
of surplus to requirements thing around
men so that worst fear has not been
realized but
the conservatives were right to say that
if we get to this world where there's
much greater economic inequality between
men and women which was that that means
that the men don't have this specific
very dedicated role anymore of
Breadwinner what's up guys it's time
Bill you and if you're anything like me
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we're going to have trouble with these
guys these guys are going to be either
in trouble or trouble and they're
although the nature of the trouble is
different to what was predicted
nonetheless I think that was right so if
you look at the men who like opioid
overdose and mostly men suicide rates
are four times higher among men and
young uh young and boys young men than
among women
and any number of other pathologies that
are affecting a lot of men and I looked
at I looked at their work on suicide and
one of the studies that really stopped
me in my tracks honestly and it's a
moment where you stop being a
a scholar and you just become a human
being this work by Fiona Shand looked at
the words that men used to describe
themselves before suicide and the two
most commonly used words by those men
were useless
to describe themselves useless and
worthless
there's something going on there which
is we cannot create a society which is
more gender equal which I fully support
if in case that's not clear by now but
which also makes so many men feel like
they they're of no use anymore they're
worthless now thanks guys we got it from
here is not a great message and so we've
got to find a way to get through this
messy situation we're in now so that
there's a positive script for men a
positive description of masculinity and
what we need fathers and men and boys to
be like that is compatible with this new
world of economic of economic equality
because it's not going away right we're
not going back to a world where women
were economically dependent on men
except within families by choice as my
wife was on me for periods and as I was
on her for periods and interestingly
with couples who do have the most
economic power and the most resources
are the ones where women stay home to
look after the kids more easily because
they can afford to do so that's great
and I think that the women's movement of
dodged a very very big bullet
by not
I think pathologizing the women who
chose to become parents who said that
they to your wife that just a mum thing
that's that's much less common now I
think there was a moment where the
women's movements started to look like
it might look down on women
who weren't sort of in the labor market
full-time Etc
I think that was largely avoided and now
what I see in the women's movement is
actually a desire to support mums if
that's what they want to do a respectful
woman's choice so I think they largely
avoided that trap and that's a great
thing yeah agreed uh so now I want to
talk about this idea of surplus man and
what happens when they no longer really
have a need to be the breadwinner
especially if they're being outperformed
by women so I'm going to keep anchoring
this uh in my logic around okay
you're having a biological experience
this is like my obsession is to get
people to understand that you you are
living life through your brain and your
brain works in a certain kind of way and
male brains work a little differently
than women there's way more overlap than
there are differences but the
differences end up mattering and so well
it depends on the issue there's more
overlap on some things than others
that's very important I mean there's 95
of violent crime is committed by men uh
so do you think that's a distribution
problem meaning that so you have a
tremendous amount of overlap in these
things but the most violent things are
going to happen at the tail or the tail
yeah but there are some things like
aggression sex drive risk-taking people
things there's a whole series of
Dimensions agreeable disagreeable where
the distributions just overlap different
amounts so the agreeable disagree oh you
agree that's a personality trait thing
agree that overlaps a lot right in fact
I'm more agreeable than my wife right
there you go said it now uh yes right so
and that does but but aggression
potential for a physical aggression that
doesn't overlap very much and so yes
you're right it's at the Tails but just
doing it in everyday life just like this
there's much less physical equation from
women than there is from men so you I
really like the fact you said they
overlap but so the question is is not
does this distribution overlap or not
because they almost always do overlap
the question is how much do they overlap
and how much does it matter I am going
to continue to Anchor around the idea of
biology just to give myself a a thread
to pull through all of this and I do
understand that I am taking an
extraordinarily complicated Topic in
simplifying it but I think it will help
people think through certainly it will
help me as you check me in different
areas so Surplus men could end up being
Mad Max style has not been Mad Max style
where probably we we have a new opiate
for the male masses anyway in
pornography and video games which hey
give you a sense of like I did get laid
see I'm okay and then I did and I did
win at that competition right exactly so
very interesting I don't yet know as
somebody who plays video games and when
my wife does not match up my libido is
more than happy to dip into pornography
it's like nah I I hesitate to say it's
bad but at the same time I'm very good
at self-regulation so yeah I don't end
up having a problem I know a lot of
people do yeah Okay so we've got this
moment where you've got over how many
hundreds of thousands or millions of
years you want to Clock IT of evolution
that's driving a slight differentiation
between men and women you get men
needing to be not needing to be but men
are shaped because they can't breastfeed
which is a choice that Evolution makes
men can't breastfeed nor can they carry
a baby to term but you need them for the
genetic mixing that you get from sexual
reproduction Okay cool so what is going
to be their role and it becomes okay
you're you're going to be optimized
women you're going to be optimized for
caring for infants so one of the things
I find utterly fascinating I think it's
15 of women have a fourth photoreceptor
so they can literally see colors that
guys can't see it that one struck me
because it is so obviously physiological
like they just have an extra thing that
guys don't have why might that be to be
able to perceive changes in the skin
color of their child to detect sickness
early whatever I I don't know but that's
one hypothesis that's that's interesting
obviously having mammary glands and
being able to produce milk like women
are just optimized to have and care for
children so now you've got guys that are
oh God I don't know how much time to to
spend on this I will say things quickly
if there's anything you disagree with or
or think I'm crazy about just let me
know but men are basically the answer to
the question of what do women want women
are the sexual Gatekeepers and so the
vast majority of reproduction comes from
what women are willing to grant their
sexual access to
and so men are stronger an upper body
men have the aggression all the things
that you talked about okay so
basically women are saying
I need a partner which is my whole thing
if if I were going to sum my thesis up
it is men and women need each other and
they need to shape each other okay so if
at a societal level that shaping happens
in evolutionary time frames being out in
the savannah having to fight lines and
stuff like that it's like okay I need
you to be stronger more aggressive more
willing to take risks all of that so
that I can take care of the child you go
out and do the more dangerous [ __ ]
whether that's hunting protecting from
other males in their tribe cool but
that's what you're gonna do now as we
evolve we build these very stable
societies we are able to do all the
things we can do in a modern context
include separate sex from reproduction
now women go into the labor force but
now like they're still going to be able
to have babies which is absolutely
necessary and biology is going to be
like oh my God you can breastfeed like
this is amazing they're going to get all
this biological reinforcement including
the neurochemical flood the oxygen the
kid yep but guys you can't breadwinn
anymore or you don't necessarily need to
yeah and by the way if you're going
after it you're a bad person well you
don't need to I think you so that you
that it that final point you made which
is that we don't necessarily need you to
do that anymore so are men necessary I
think who's it who wrote that book um uh
Maureen Dowd I think wrote that book
like are men necessary it's a terrifying
question great question
um and of course there are these kind of
women-only Utopias right which you see
all the way through from kind of Perkins
through to Rick and there's a Rick and
Morty episode right uh raising Gaza
thought or something where there's like
again it's like a it's an old Trope
which is there's this kind of utopian
female society and then the kind of
savage men down there and they can make
out the sperm
um they solve the reproduction problem
all male or the other and just kind of
get rid of all those uh get rid of all
those men
so I think there's a few things going on
here one is the the shaping you talk
about the shaping of men and women of
each other I look at it slightly more
through the lens of parenting and so how
the raising of the having and the
successful raising of kids shapes us
so I'm very influenced here by the
worker Anna Machin who's an
anthropologist at Oxford she wrote a
book called The Life of dad and what she
shows and there are other people have
shown this too is that fatherhood really
really was created when our brains went
through that huge expansion and the
years it took to get our kids to
nutritional Independence but just came
huge and the calorie requirements to get
kind of a newborn to nutritional
Independence suddenly became massive
there's no way women could do it on
their own and so if you wanted your kid
to survive you kind of needed to be a
dad
and so I see this as kind of much more
around reproduction and what happens to
our Offspring and that that's kind of at
an evolutionary level that's affecting a
lot of our behavior and so then the
question becomes like well what have you
not need it anymore
like what like why why do you need Dad
when you have food stamps and you know
women only 40 of women earning more than
men and so we have to come up with a
different answer to that same question
and we have to find ways in which the
natural tendencies of men say to be more
risk-taking because you're right men are
more risk-taking than women where does
that go now we can't just suppress it we
can't somehow expunge it right we can't
take that out of men like an appendix
all right just it's not some obsolete
thing you can just sort of remove only
if it comes in flame but otherwise it's
just this kind of obsolete part of our
evolutionary manipulate it and this is
you can Channel it right but so do so do
we want men to be risk-taking
yes and no depends on the circumstances
right so when I was running across in
front of trucks or flipping doing some
assaults uh over the side of a ski
resort to see and they're hitting farm
machinery and like no
do you want people to kind of take risks
in terms of starting businesses do you
want people kind of willing to come be
more adventurous Etc yes so that
risk-taking appetite among among men is
it good or bad is the wrong question
it's when is it good and when is it bad
and how can we find ways to channel it
in ways that are more appropriate than
others and that's
that's not a new problem it's we have we
have a new set of challenges around it
but there's this line from Margaret Mead
the Anthropologist which I've now used
so much that I I've got it committed
basically to memory which is every known
Human Society has rested on the Learned
nurturing behavior of men this Behavior
being learned
is rather fragile and can disappear
quite quickly under circumstances that
no longer teach it effectively I think
that's exactly right so male nurturing
and it doesn't mean necessarily
one-on-one nurturing male nurturing can
be a little bit more tribal it can be a
little bit more for a bigger group but
male nurturing matters right it has
ancestrally it's mattered because it's
different in tonality than female
nurturing well it's not just more well
you've made the point that kind of like
women breastfeed there's the oxytocin
thing there's a kind of a for very young
children especially there's that kind
there is a difference between the
biological relationship between fathers
and mothers of very young children where
when I disagree with some of the
conservatives on this is like that's not
less true for 12 year olds in fact I'm
reasonably convinced by the evidence
that dads if anything have a bit of a
competitive Advantage when it comes to
adolescence so just because women like
breastfeed for the first few months
doesn't mean that they
that's them for the next 25 years right
yeah you're a mum that's the problem
people over determine the biological
difference turn it into roles and trap
people with them rather and the other
side say oh no there are there are no
biological differences right so you just
end up with this absurd situation where
neither side makes any sense and so the
question is like well okay what about
the guys then well fatherhood still
really matters just in a slightly
different way so you you're still needed
by your kids you still have to provide
for your kids and by the way that could
include materially right there aren't
probably very many women out there that
love the idea that men aren't going to
do any more earning anymore right and in
fact
because this very interesting new uh
recent evidence that shows that a big
reason for the gender pay Gap is
parenting we know that already right
there's a difference between men and
women's parenting but it's not just that
mothers earn and work less it's that
fathers earn and work more
and that drives the gender pay Gap very
significantly right so so actually
fatherhood triggers more work my
earnings among men right so the idea
that that's come that that men you know
the providing role of men is kind of
somehow kind of behind us that's that's
wrong it's just that they don't have
exclusive access to it anymore but they
also matter as dads
they're a bit better at helping the kids
take risks they may be a little bit
better around some of physical stuff
with sons I only have boys so I can only
speak to three boys and a friend of ours
said like well you've got boys and
they're like dogs just run them out
twice a day and you'll be fine it is a
bit more complicated than that but
there's some truth in that it's just the
physical needs of boys and girls are a
little bit different and Dad's actually
are pretty good at all that so I guess
my big Point here is that we are where
we are in terms of the economic
relationship between men and women we
also are who we are in terms of our
biology and so the question is what kind
of culture do we need to create that
recognizes biological differences
without in any way making them
determinative but without imagine
they're not there which celebrates
economic and economic greater economic
equality between men and women but which
nonetheless gives men a specific role to
play in society and in their kids lives
we are just beginning to answer that
question in fact I honestly think
through my own work some I have to
persuade some people that's even a
question that needs answering right
which is there is a problem right now
with boys and men and one of the sources
of that problem is we don't have a new
script for masculinity
we've torn up the old one the
breadwinning one
we haven't replaced it but but actually
masculinity doesn't invent itself and
back to this point about the Fragile the
Learned thing from Mead I think it's
basically true that becoming a man
mature masculinity positive masculinity
is more learned more socialized than
femininity women have a much clearer
sequence of bile and their biological
Milestones Etc there isn't there isn't
quite if you look at the history of
human cultures they've worked really
hard around rights of Passage
for men
is that because they were patriarchies
not mostly I don't think I think it's
because
humans have known forever that the
challenge of turning boys into good man
is a bigger cultural challenge than
turning girls into young into women
because we don't have quite the same
biological markers and that is a task
that every culture has taken very very
seriously and I think it would be
incredibly arrogant of us to think that
we can be the first to cite Society in
human history that doesn't have to pay
attention to the way we turn boys into
men I agree with that really
aggressively so one of the I shouldn't
say aggressively because that's very
male of you I know which I love
the funny thing is
um I am I am more
I am I don't know what the right way to
say this is so I'll say it uh overly
simplistic I'm more traditionally
feminine than my wife and my wife is
more traditionally masculine than I am
and so us coming together has been
really interesting in that we have a
very easy time understanding each other
because there's not this catastrophic
difference like when I think of like an
MMA fighter getting with somebody that
you know all they want to do is play
with dolls and have kids yeah it's like
like that that could be a much tougher
bridge to cross but when I was
I guess right before I met my wife I
read the book The Power of myth by
Joseph Campbell and I sometimes get made
fun of for this but I actually think
it's one of the most important things
that I did in my life which I read the
book and he has a hypothesis in that
that a big problem that we face is the
breakdown of coming of age rituals yeah
and there are no coming-of-age rituals
in my own journey into entrepreneurship
was one of toughening up of becoming
more traditionally masculine of learning
to be aggressive of learning to be
disagreeable
and it really really served me now the
fact that I had to learn it means that I
had skills on the other side of empathy
connection all of that which has served
me incredibly well as well but I
realized I would not have gotten where
I've gotten had I not developed those
skills and so it got me thinking a lot
about I didn't have a coming-of-age
ritual my dad wasn't hyper involved he
was married to my mom the whole time I
was growing up last three weeks after I
went to college so that tells you a
little something great divorce yeah so
it was
um he was absent despite being
physically there he worked in the garage
a lot and all that so I didn't have a
super strong male role model of what
being a man looked like and he grew up
without a father so it was like he
didn't even uh he probably didn't know
what to pass on or how to pass it on
anyway so when I read this book The
Power of myth hey these Coming of Age
rituals are missing that really echoed
true for me because of how I came up and
so I'm thinking oh I am about to you
know at some point in the near future
hopefully we'll find somebody that I
want to get married to and he also
mentions book that he thinks part of the
reason that 50 of marriages end in
divorce is because there's similarly no
really hardcore ritual of you were
single and now you were married and you
were different now forever and so as a
part of getting married I got myself
ritualistically scarred now the reason
that people make fun of me is what it
was was a tattoo now most people think
of it as a tattoo but I'd not I only
have one tattoo I absolutely at the time
really had a hard time with needles
and so for me it was facing a gigantic
fear that I had I wanted it to be
painful and I wanted it to be permanent
and so was that was something of your
wife was it today of course of course so
I end up getting a tattoo designed which
is she's Greek so it was her name in
Greek and then in Greek the four words
that were my basically promise to her
and when I did it I said I want to lean
into the fact that this is painful I
want to be completely present with what
I'm going through and as it's happening
so I made her come with me but I did not
want her to give me any comfort or
Solace or anything like that I was like
a don't distract me I want this to be
painful and so going through that was
between her and I a pact we will never
joke about divorce or anything like that
that's completely off the table barring
this becoming Loveless or abuse on
either side this is forever and not
because we say words in front of friends
because we believe that's the most
logical saying to living a fulfilling
amazing life but that it's necessary to
walk through some kind of threshold for
me and it's interesting because I didn't
feel she needed to go through something
like that as well because she was like
you know should I get a tattoo and I was
like no actually I don't it doesn't feel
intuitively like there I was like if you
want one obviously get one but it is not
what I would want and so we did this
whole thing and talked about it and that
really laid a foundation for us where
for me I knew there is no going
backwards and there is no unwindingness
there is only what is the path through
what is the path to a loving
long-lasting healthy relationship and so
by conceptualizing it as a ritualistic
scarification to remind myself that I am
different tomorrow than I was today that
we are married and it is it is a line in
the sand that I'm never going to
retrograde back across how interesting
but I had to think of of it like that
and I needed something to I needed to
make a big deal out of something I
needed it to you need to have a manager
you needed this it's super interesting
to me I mean first of all I think that
there are lots of these different rights
of Passage that that we kind of we all
need and just at an anecdotal level I
think things like the so I've been a
scout leader uh in the past and so and
things like you know that moving up from
different Scout groups to another I
remember one we used to do where they
would bring a Cub Scout to a scout and
they would literally they would have
their kind of scout uniform on
underneath their Cub uniform and they'd
go into this kind of parachute thing and
all everyone would line up and go into
the parachute and they're going to
parachute and take and they'd come out
and they were a scout and they came out
right they went in as a Cub Scout and
came out as a scout right kind of sounds
silly Etc but I remember doing that
big deal right and so there's this kind
of all of these these rituals what's
interesting is the role of marriage I've
been really struck by the fact that more
American men say that marriage is
important to them than American women do
whoa women are twice as likely to
initiate divorce as men
post divorce men do much worse than
women
and so I think that is a very interested
in your story that marriage as an
institution
is more important for men than for women
that's really shocking that's so
interesting it's so counterintuitive
right it goes against the narrative The
Narrative is well you know she dragged
me into it and you know the guy's
stagnally rolls his eyes and like and
the The Narrative is that women are kind
of trying to trap men into marriage
right they find someone to marry and
they obsess about their wedding day and
all that and man are like reluctantly
dragged in because we'd much rather be
out on the Range being a cowboy or
shooting whatever it is [ __ ]
it actually turns out especially now
that women are a bit more like yeah I
couldn't there it might not marry et
cetera and if he's not working out
whereas for men actually that
institutional anchor I think is becoming
more important
and super interesting to me that one of
the results of the women's movement has
been to make marriage more important for
men but I also think it's because men
don't have these alternative rights of
Passage so becoming a mother still has a
different impact for women than it does
for men and I think that's going to
remain true for for some time I would
love fatherhood to have much more
salience than it does and that's why I
want more paid leave for dads and all
that stuff I get into in the book but
but I am super interested in like the
deinstitutionalization of masculinity
like there's there's a there's a sound
bite for you that no one's ever going to
use again
on the bumper sticker what do we want
the reinstitutionalization of
masculinity when do we want it no this
cat it is catchy isn't it I think you
heard it here first and so what I mean
by that is that actually many of the
institutions through which actually
men's roles were formed it could be a
labor market could be Church it could be
marriage they're actually kind of
falling away and those are affecting men
much more than women
uh including marriage and so it's
interesting to me that like the tattoo
example is somewhat I think that some
deep level what was happening there is
you wanted to connect yourself to the
institution in a way that felt just you
know irrever you wanted to you wanted to
embrace the institution you wanted to
become part of the institution you
wanted to step into the institution and
that took more than just a saying of a
few vows you needed something more than
that to mark that institutional marker
and I think that just generally there
are fewer and fewer those for men in our
society now and that's a problem to
Campbell was right to that extent yeah I
am
I'm I met a really weird intersection of
uh as an entrepreneur
governmental tinkering bothers you
um as a
podcaster who's trying to think well
through these things and
um
you get confronted with oh God this
tinkering work but then at the same time
as a person in the world with people
that you love and care about you're like
thank God the government exists and that
they you know do their best to come up
with policies to help people and think
ah there's a safety net and that people
aren't you know just like well you got
blindsided sorry yeah so
but I while I think it is important and
I am very much not the uh tear it all
down and let's hope the thing that we
build back is better
I do worry that people aren't being
thoughtful enough that tinkering in and
of itself is the finding the fence in
the middle of the field and going I
think it'd be a bit better like this and
then you realize oh we just made it so
things could crawl underneath it or we
made it shorter and now things can leap
over it and we didn't realize what the
second and third order consequences we
didn't think through what the role of
that institution was before we tore it
down exactly that's the difference
between a revolutionary and a reformer I
think yes and so when I think about
where these to call it an institution
makes me uneasy
because going back to biology this stuff
was born very naturally over very long
periods of time from what do you say an
institution what are you talking about
marriage specifically or anything or
this monogamous marriage is a very
recent invention interesting so 95 of
human societies have been polygamous
and only 50 of men historically have
reproduced so that's crazy twice as many
of our ancestors are female as well so
sorry walk me through 95 so when you
polygamy is the norm as in this is the
actual structure of our society is like
yeah guys have more than one wife yeah
yeah it's always almost always been
polygeny which is men having multiple
wives not the other way around that's
what we mean by that but but yeah it's
important I think when we have these
discussions about what's traditional
marriage what traditional Society is to
recognize that across the Arc of
evolutionary history which is I think
the the the this ban that you're
interested in
monogamous marriage
just yes it was invented yesterday
largely by the Christian church and then
kind of spread across the world you know
from there and that's been huge in terms
of its cultural impact and one of the
reasons by the way that men probably
have an evolutionary higher appetite for
risk is because actually if you only had
a 50 chance of reproducing ancestrally
it was worth taking risks to try and get
into the 50 who were going to reproduce
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okay I don't know these stats well
enough but I'm gonna push on some what
my intuition is telling me
so the only way for men to be polygamous
is that if they're able to acquire
resources in such disproportion that
your as a woman rather than going to a
relationship where you can have all of
that one man and the things
that you would rather have a smaller
percentage of how on Earth is that
possible pre-agriculture
Chiefs tribal Chiefs I mean Genghis Khan
for example this is the most famous
example like yeah but even that those
really
spring up non-god I want to fully
acknowledge that I'm outside of what I
understand so the the status hierarchy
of men was what led them to have like
multiple wives at the top of the
hierarchy and none at the bottom 100 000
years ago that seems impossible
absolutely this is across across human
history absolutely yeah yeah so but
there's a debate as to whether human
societies are more than technological
societies of more than 10 or 20 sure so
there's going to be a bit of a
discussion here as to like what
counselors quotes a society and in order
for us to know the stat I just gave you
about polygament I'm quoting from Joe
Henrik there again we have to know about
that Society so we have to have kind of
we have to have evidence for it so
that's by definition a more recent one
so you're right and I don't want to be I
don't want to get the kind of starting
date wrong for this but to the extent
that we've know about human society so
the societies we know about 95 of them
have been polygamous now
to very different degrees of course
right so there's there's a world where
like one guy gets all of the women and
there's a world where you know women and
men get one of each and everything in
between but it does generate this issue
of the kind of the historic problem the
math problem of surplus man was actually
one that kind of every society had uh
under under conditions of polygamy
because if one guy has multiple wives
by definition that means there's a bunch
of guys who don't have who don't have a
wife uh and it was monogamy that came
along and quote solved solved that
problem
um and so that and actually Henrik and
others are really good about saying look
everyone says of course men would love
this right they roll their eyes and say
yeah of course member life of course men
are in favor of anything
don't be too careful to assume that
there are not some advantages to those
societies including for women and so to
put it very bluntly in a modern context
if you went to the average woman and
said okay you can be the third wife of
Jeff Bezos or the only wife of an
unemployed steel worker
damn
what you're going to choose and it might
depend on your view of marriage Etc but
I've tried that question on a lot of
women and they're like yeah interesting
right
um that is terrifying
it's terrifying because of my world
wife is terrifying um
when I look at it when I look at it I am
I'm really unnerved by that it isn't
easy to dismiss and go oh
I I want to say you're better off as the
wife of an unemployed steel worker but I
would actually if it were my sister I
would hesitate yeah I know I thought I
mean I mean at the same time obviously
not Third Kind of uh consecutively it's
I find this very interesting in light of
the rise in polyamory and kind of what's
happening to relationships now uh and
sort of seeing where kind of we're
ending up plus there is all this
discussion of what happens on dating
apps for example so dating apps have
been and you probably know this but
they've been kind of quite well studied
and there is something a kind of Winner
Takes all Dynamic that happens on those
dating apps and so you do see like some
you know a small percentage of the guys
getting a disproportionate share of the
dates and so it's not that's a kind of
like a little microcosm if you like of
that kind of society where actually a
very high status male can end up with
many more women in this case just dates
and so on too leaving lots of other men
without any women and that's a that's a
kind of debate that's happening in the
manosphere is a lot of about in cells
kind of Etc and there's a lot of
grievance honestly around kind of what's
Happening most of which I don't think is
Justified but but nonetheless it's
interesting in the context of this kind
of biological history
yeah to say this is interesting that is
uh an understatement I want to go back
to this because you've really you're
you're helping me identify base
assumptions that I have so everybody is
a slave to their frame of reference my
phrase uh your frame of references your
values beliefs base assumptions so this
is how I am this is how the world Works
often those beliefs are invisible to
people they don't even realize that they
don't see the frame yeah so they're they
can't see your own frame exactly yes and
when you said that about being the third
wife of Jeff Bezos man that's really so
that's made me confront something so I'm
realizing now that my base assumption is
that a thriving relationship between uh
two people that love each other because
I don't even need it to be men and women
that just happens to be from an
evolutionary standpoint the default the
vast majority of people end up there
um so but that that
relationship with my wife has been the
most
unbelievably nurturing and
soul-affirming thing in the world so I
have a subroutine that runs in my brain
that as long as I have my wife
everything's gonna be okay and that's
allowed me to take tremendous risks and
try things from a place of security
rather than from a place of like because
a lot of the risk-taking behavior I
think you will agree with this a lot of
the risk-taking behavior that men
display are because they're from an
evolutionary standpoint they're trying
to win access to females yes I already
have that and I it's possible I get
blindsided one day and realize my wife's
been unfaithful this whole time but I
really really doubt it and so
I'm not trying to win over access to a
woman I have a woman it's a a very
emotionally nourishing experience and
yet it also manifests in a way that has
me taking bigger risks and trying
different things and so when we talk
about what is the the moving forward
script for men in a way that does not
replace breaks on women which I will
just say emphatically I'm on that team I
want to see women Thrive I want to see
men Thrive as well and I think that one
thing I'm always trying to get guys I'm
so curious to see how you respond to
this I'm trying to get guys to be more
aggressive and that I don't want women I
absolutely despise any human being this
is all slowed down so you can lead
I want people to go as hard as they
possibly can but with love in your heart
for other people when you say that you
want uh so I yes I largely agree with
all that but I want to I'd love to hear
more when you say that you're
encouraging guys to be more aggressive
what do you mean by that and give me
some specific examples yeah thank you
because I'm sure people will misread my
intent so uh I want to see people try to
push their skill set as far as humanly
possible to get as good as possible to
pour as much time and energy into an
honorable goal as they can muster uh I
think it is very important that people
have a crystal clear goal that that goal
be exciting to them meaning it's just
something that they're interested in and
honorable meaning that it's serving not
only themselves but other people and in
that frame I want to see people maximize
every second of their day now to me all
of that needs to be in service of
fulfillment it is the only
um resilient mental state so happiness
does not survive a period of mourning so
you will have no happiness while in
mourning okay but you can still have
fulfillment in mourning so I I really
like this and I what I would do my
friendly Amendment would be to maybe
change the language a little bit because
when you say more about that we see more
aggressive I know what you're doing with
that but people can mishear that and say
okay what does he mean they're
physically aggressive and it gives me a
chance to talk about something I don't
get the chance to talk about very much
so thank you for opening this this
particular door which is to talk about
agency
going for it that sense of purpose
having kind of wind in your sales being
under your own steam like certainly when
I've raised my own kids the thing I've
always just thought is like are they
under their own steam are they going for
something it doesn't matter what it is
so one of my sons for example dropped
out of college to become an Esports
coach in Las Vegas which was his live
stream
so he's calling me up say Dad should I
do this you know I'm going to get paid
well and all this I'm going to get an
apartment in Las Vegas and be a
professional Esports coach but I have to
drop out because I have to stop out of
college for a while I mean of course you
should do that that's your dream and
maybe he would have carried on doing
that but it was his dream
and he was he was purposeful so agency
purpose drive just a sense of like going
for itness is I think what I think
that's what you're talking about 100 and
what's what's interesting is that you
see less of that now in men than in
women
so some of the kind of data points
saying that women are more likely to
move than men in search of opportunity
more like a movie that's crazy more
likely to move more likely to go abroad
more like to study abroad more likely to
volunteer for America more likely to go
for the Peace Corps more likely to be
the first to buy their own buy their own
home less likely to be living at home
with their parents in their 20s so take
if you take these kind of measures of
agency let's call it that actually kind
of men are falling behind
and I think there's a bunch of things
going on there I think one is that it
turns out the the old scripts for what
men and women were supposed to do
actually as we took them away it turns
out men really needed them what they're
actually now being asked to do is what
you're asking them to do which is like
have more agency
like go for it and the men I'm most
worried about are not the ones who are
acting out
they get the attention right January 6th
is kind of like the stereotypical
example but men who are acting out it's
the men who are checking out that worry
me
and who are actually becoming quite
passive
uh who in some ways don't have a clear
sense of where they're going a lot of
young women will say how frustrated they
are very often by that among men and
I'll give you one more example on this
which is there's a a question that's
asked in in the Pew survey and lots of
other surveys which is asking men and
women what they're looking for in a
potential mate and one of the things
women always say is breadwinning
potential they're much more likely to
say that than the other way around and a
lot of people say you see even women
still want men to have that traditional
role and this one female colleague of
mine said something to me years ago that
made me absolutely stop in my tracks she
said no no that question breadwinning
potential is a proxy for have you got
your acts together are you with me are
you a part are you gonna be a partner
shoulder to shoulder maybe I'll be the
breadwinner for a while but you're going
to be raising the kids and you're going
to be doing it well or you're going to
volunteer or you're going to try right
now my wife's doing a startup like she's
trying that maybe at work maybe it won't
I've tried various things we try it out
Etc and back to your point about the
security of someone else someone on your
team women are saying I want a guy
that's with me that has agency that has
purpose that has a goal for himself
that's propelling himself forward in the
world and maybe by the way that means
he'll be the breadwinner for a while but
it doesn't necessarily mean that so
underneath all of these questions I
think it's just this sense of agency
purpose Direction I think that's what
you're talking about and that there
aren't I think now because men aren't
quite sure how to be
they're kind of sure what they're
supposed to not do now there's a long
list of don'ts for men but they're not
quite sure what they're supposed to do
and in some ways there's a danger and I
hear I've gotten a bit of a limb and say
sometimes in these discussions there's a
bit of a danger of almost pathologizing
mail agency
oh yes for women to lean in men have got
to lean out and we kind of need men to
get out of the way and if you can stop
mansplaining please shut up get out of
the way Etc and that's in my view
incredibly damaging we don't need to
suppress male agency in order to support
female agency as a false choice and it
seems like that is proving out like this
is this is why I'm trying to get people
to understand it is so gross to say slow
down so I can lead you want people going
all out trying to be the best that they
can be in a loving and compassionate way
I'm not saying be a dick and step on
somebody's neck like I'm saying go all
life is quite sure yes yes and so
getting people to come around to you've
in a marriage you have to want your
partner to win as a species you need
your you need to want your partner to
win you need to want everybody to shine
and figure out like hey what would make
you happy like what do you want to
pursue and let's figure out how we do
that but when it it gets adversarial and
this is what freaks me out about modern
dating if I could be a dad for a second
I will just tell everybody hey I get it
guys maybe you're not feeling good uh
between hypergamy and the way the dating
apps are set up and the internet and all
that you really do get a winner take all
scenario and a very thin slice of men at
the top or getting women and it's
breaking down into monogamies falling
apart yada yada okay I get it but the
only reason that these relationships
work is because it's a partner it's
somebody to contend with it's somebody
that helps you think better and pushes
you to be better and you push them to do
better to meet you like Toe to Toe yeah
yes and that was exactly there was a
moment this is very personal now but
there was a moment for me and my wife in
when we were in therapy
and we're talking about the issues we're
having and I was talking about how
supportive I've been of her career how
I'd help raise the kids and all of that
and she looked me in the eye and said
you seem to think the problem is that
you're not feminist enough that's not
the problem the problem is you're not
masculine enough wow
what did she mean
hence the rest of the therapy and
honestly I think that comment I think it
may have saved our marriage well because
well what do you mean by that and she
said you're not stating your own needs
clearly enough
you're being too passive
you're you think you need to get out of
the way you're not stepping up enough
you're not meeting me as an equal
I had fallen into the Trap of thinking
that you know being a good feminist
being a good male feminist being a good
Ally whatever language you want to use
meant that I had to somehow shrink
myself and not be very good at declaring
my own needs going for my own goals Etc
that I had I had denuded myself of some
of my own agency and she didn't want
that she wanted someone to contend with
to use your language and I realized that
that was exactly what happened and
actually that's it was incredibly
healing for us to to realize that and
I'll be honest I think that's probably
one of the things that's led me down the
journey to look at what's happening to
boys and men generally because at the
risk of taking my own frame and using it
that sense of like having of just
shrinking ourselves having to be less
somehow it's really caught I think a lot
of men in that situate boys and men in
that situation and so we haven't got
this empowering joyful liberating
exciting script about how great it is to
be a guy
uh and how here is the way to be a guy
we don't have that and I think that has
left a lot of us
um struggling in various ways so I'm
just giving you that very intimate
portrait but I think that more
structurally and more culturally there's
this issue of what I can only describe
as a lack of male agency
and that's a problem and women don't
want that and it's bad for men and it's
bad for society but we've got ourselves
into a position where somehow we are
somewhat shrinking I think this this
sense of we're a bit suspicious of male
agency and of course there are very good
reasons historically why male agency has
sometimes been bad Etc but I'm really
worried that we're overdoing it and that
we're sending now a kind of message to
too many boys and young men the their
own agency is less important and it's
not
I am gobsmacked by that I want to
breathe until you finish that point
that's so powerful and uh because it
resonates so profoundly with me and the
journey that I had to go on where it's
like yes if you want to be good at that
because for me it really came through
business if you want to be good at this
thing you are going to have to get and
they didn't it wasn't like it was you
have to get more mail it was like you
have to be more aggressive you have to
it's a great movie called Rush about
these two I forget the names of the
drivers but these two race car drivers
went back and forth yeah and one of them
said the second you don't look for The
Gap to try to get your car in front like
you're lost retire immediately yeah and
that's what I had to learn how to do was
and shooting that Gap is risky and there
it's so easy to not and I am I I really
believe in the phrase that leaders make
great leaders and so on my team I'm
constantly trying to empower other
people to step up to be leaders and
finding people that will shoot that Gap
that will own this was my decision and
if it works we can at me on the back and
if it fails then we can say you made a
poor decision you did not execute this
well and then letting them understand
that you're and this is the difficulty
of The Human Experience that now you're
on a razor's edge of this is a quote
unquote safe space to try to shoot that
Gap and if you miss it none of us are
going to be like you're an [ __ ] we're
going to be like hey you really tried
something you did it well well done yeah
but if you miss that Gap every time
you'll lose your job and so it's like
God like contending with that is really
hard but the reality is we will go out
of business if I as the CEO shoot that
Gap and miss too many times we go out of
business and so there is but if you
don't go for it at all you won't be a
great business what's interesting back
to where uh you know some time ago
talking about appetite for risk
right everything else equal it's pretty
clear the risk taking tends to be more
associated with men than for women again
distributions usually overlapping right
as your own experience shows you it's
not not that that all men to say that
all men are more risk-taking in the room
is like saying all men are taller than
all women right it's just insane but
nonetheless given that that's the case
it's interesting to see what in some
ways you'd see as a risk aversion among
a lot of boys and young men now in the
spaces you'd want to see it like
entrepreneurship going to college is at
risk right there's Financial risks Etc
asking someone out is a risk right
there's all kinds of risks moving home
moving to a different city for a job
that's a risk and women are taking those
risks more than men now
so where's that risk-taking appetite
among men going if it's not being
expressed in there's other ways now it's
still true in entrepreneurship et cetera
too but I worry a little bit that it's
being sublimated maybe into games maybe
into kind of something else and that's
not I'm I'm with you I don't think isn't
bad with video gaming not least because
they paid my son well for a while but
but but there's nothing bad about that
but I worry a little bit that we are
we're not promoting healthy risk-taking
among men in society in the economy in
dating Etc and that's that's in the end
that's kind of bad for all of us so
where's it going maybe it's being
suppressed and that's not good if it's a
natural tendency to take risks because
maybe it'll go somewhere else maybe
it'll go to drug taking or some other
kind of risk taking that's really not
healthy so what does healthy male risk
taking look like in our modern society
that's the question that we're not
really answering very well yeah I want
to talk about that in a grander way so
you talked about men needing a script so
if masculinity done well is far less
tied to biological cues because I still
think it is tied to biology in terms of
the male brain works a certain way but
there isn't that immediate reinforcement
of child rearing
um
how do we get that script right
well in a way that's the huge question
that I'm personally grappling with which
is what is what is a script for positive
masculinity look like today
in a world of gender equality and I
think it's incredibly important that it
has both the aspects of being positive
like there are aspects of masculinity
that are positive but it also has to be
recognizably masculine I think there's
someone's a tendency when newer people
talk about non-toxic masculinity or
positive masculinity they're very often
when you ask them what do you mean by
that they'll say you know emotional
availability vulnerability Compassion
Care
emotional accessibility willingness to
cry you're like wait are we still
talking about masculinity because I
think actually that sounds a lot like
femininity and that's that's a form of
gender appropriation and again it's not
to say that everyone's like oh this is
these things overlap but but to work
this has to be recognizably something
that kind of you know on average boys
and men are going to resonate with it's
like yeah this is my lived experience
this is what it's like to be in my body
this is what it's like to be me
um but I do think that building it
around fatherhood is huge I think the
acknowledging and embracing it's good to
maybe have a bit more appetite for risk
even and this is a much more difficult
area recognizing that men have a higher
sex drive than women right driven
sexuality is the technical term but like
managers like sex is a bigger deal for
men right in terms of like them I miss I
miss phrase that not a bigger deal in
some ways a bigger deal for women for
The evolutionary reasons you talk about
but but men are more driven by sex right
more of their behavior Etc
um is that a good or a bad thing answer
yes it is a good and a Bad Thing
depending on how it's expressed and so
on but finding ways to say that actually
the desire of men for women the sexual
desire of men for women is a good thing
not a bad thing and then helping boys
and men to express that appropriately is
incredibly important so one of the
things that I have tried to raise my
sons to be like is to be courageous
enough to ask a girl out
gracious enough to accept no for an
answer
and then responsible enough to make sure
that either way she gets home safely
and to me that's a world that we want
all of our men and boys to be in I think
which is absolute equality between men
and women in total respect for the kind
of autonomy and opportunities of each
but
a willingness to take a risk
um and one of the things I've noticed is
that there isn't really good language
for this so I was talking to someone
about this the other day and we ended up
talking about courtship and chivalry and
shipwreck dances and literally because I
know where you're going with this
dancing disaster what's the new language
for this because you end up sounding
like a 17th century you know French
night what do you mean about dance and
disaster I found this really well
there's this great line from this is
from 1930 the Headmaster of Stowe school
which is a boys school in England he
said that his goal was to create men who
would be acceptable at a dance and
invaluable in a shipwreck and I was
asked to update that recently I was like
I I don't know
um cool a rave but useful and uh in an
earth I don't know actually you know
what he means
that stands the test of time acceptable
at adults okay so socialized in a way
where you understand the rules of the
game come absolute respect for women Etc
know about courtship know know when it's
appropriate to approach when it's not
it's what's going on there right but
just having that skill right being a
gentleman there you go now I stand at
least 19th century not 17th century
Etc but knowing how to conduct yourself
right knowing how to be around women
knowing how to know Etc but then
invaluable in a shipwreck yeah when
things go south and there's a really
dangerous physically dangerous situation
that you are you are willing to put
yourself on the line
um and if necessary sacrifice yourself
for others absolutely that you will do
what needs to be done
um
I I I I got to tell you that that sounds
pretty good to me and there aren't very
many women who I've shared that with who
say that's a terrible thing like when
you say to them do you want guys who are
acceptable at a dance but would it be
invaluable in a shipwreck there aren't
very many women that say no that sounds
terrible right they get it they
understand what that means what's the
flip side for women though because I
think there's something very telling I'm
not I
I don't need a woman to be invaluable in
the shipwreck in fact if I'm completely
honest in that moment I go to the
Disposable Male hypothesis absolutely
you want to be the one that's invited
yeah and that makes me feel good about
this there's a reason why most of the
women survive the Titanic give me the
percentages you listen in the book don't
have a 19 male and 70-something percent
female and I was like whoa I don't know
the exact number but here's like when I
heard I was scandalized by the 19 I was
like most of the men died yeah how did
that but meaning what were the 19 they
got on the boat there were 30 women that
didn't make it so
you would think it was a lot more than
19 by the way but but another example of
that is the um I mentioned this two in
the book and here I actually I I learned
this from Carol hooven who has a book on
testosterone do you know that book I
don't it's called tea uh the story of
the uh hormone that just defines and
divides us or whatever song and a
fabulous book about testosterone you
actually you'd really like it she
actually alerted me to the existence of
the Carnegie civilian hero Awards yeah
you talked about that in the book I I
mean who's heard of that so they've been
going for nearly 100 years now and they
they issue medals every year to people
who have risked their own lives not for
their own family or in the course of
their job to save the lives of another
so this is people running into a burning
building to save someone this is people
jumping into a freezing River to save
someone this is this is someone who's
just like everyday life something
happens do you put yourself on the line
do you risk your own life to save the
lives of others and almost all men
95 of those medals go to men and it's
not because they're not trying to find
women they are it's just because if
you're looking for a there's one um kid
um
a 17 year old who died in 2021 he dived
into a freezing River saved a mother and
her three-year-old child but then
drowned himself
and many of them do die in the attempt
so they're awarded posthumously they're
all guys
uh and it seems to me that that's
something that we should really honor
that actually in the breach there are
that it is men who run into burning
buildings to save strangers and that's
back to the risk-taking thing and the
kind of the men being put themselves on
the line thing that is a obviously a
tragic thing but wow what a wonderful
thing but no one's heard of these awards
they're never held at the White House
there's never a discussion of them and I
think partly that's because we're still
just a little bit um we have some
ambiguity about celebrating the aspects
of masculinity that are pro-social and
that's a huge problem because it makes a
lot of young boys and men fear that
Society is not on their side doesn't
care about as much of them isn't
valorizing them that creates a vacuum in
our culture that I'm afraid
irresponsible forces both online and
sometimes even a Ballot Box can exploit
I think it's
it's an axiom the if there are real
problems and responsible people don't
address them irresponsible people will
exploit them and I also think it's true
that the demand for a story about
positive masculinity
is huge and it will find Supply
and it will probably find it online
and so if we don't like the people that
our boys and men end up listening to and
reading when they ask themselves the
question how should I be a man today
then maybe we should be providing a
better answer ourselves yeah that's in
line with Biology
because there is a picture that some
people will paint for men which is what
you were talking about where they're
listing all these things that sound like
femininity and it's like if you try to
hold that up as a thing to be celebrated
you get this sort of nice guy phenomenon
where you've got a guy who's trying to
be nice but in reality like there's some
sex drive in there and so that can
create some weird conflict and he's
hyper feminizing himself but he's doing
it partly and I don't want to be cynical
but partly because he wants to get laid
like there's just there's a real driver
for guys like even in myself yeah and
and I will say that
um
I was not like I wasn't doing it as a
way to manipulate women at all but I
really was trying to be what they wanted
so in my early years I was really bad
with women really bad with women I'll
share a very uh embarrassing story
though some people will probably clap
but I was literally in bed with a woman
we're getting naked the whole nine oh
God keep going and it's just you and me
no one's yeah right no one's watching oh
no it'll be fine it'll be fine uh and I
said let's not do this if it doesn't
mean anything to you now I did not say
that because I was truly worried about
it I said it because I thought she was
going to be more excited and then she
was like yeah let's stop then and so
then I was like oh I guess was I can't
believe that's true that is a true story
and so that was the end and because I
didn't know how to recover from that
because I was like wait I thought this
is exactly what was the right move at
this point
and two the story that you shared
earlier she did not need me to be a
greater Ally to women what she needed
was for me to be a man right and so I
just wanted you to want her that much
correct and so it's like you can't
imagine how much how many more years it
took me to go oh now I get why that was
like the wrong play
but it was baffling in the moment
because of that dance and because of
that like this this the magic of the
difference and the kind of the the
courtship and the differences that there
are between men and women I actually
think that the
the failure to acknowledge some of these
differences between men and women when
it comes to especially when it comes to
sex and how and how sex and how a sex
drive gets institutionalized expressed
you know all the just the elaborate
rituals like acceptable Advance
Etc that have been created is for a
reason it is actually to make it work
right to make to make these differences
between men and women magic when it
comes to that but we can't just assume
that we're just they're just going to go
away and I've been very interested
recently how many books are being
written by women of very different
political Persuasions Erica bakayoki
Christine Ember and Louise Perry for
example which are really kind of coming
out from a largely feminist perspective
against the sex positivity movement
which they say has essentially been
about saying to women yeah you need to
be like men
and if you're not like men you're a
prude
um and that actually and basically
failing to recognize that there are some
differences between men and women on
this point and so there's this real
movement now and you think you see it
playing out in the stats around sex uh
particularly 20-somethings having less
sex today than they were
and I think part of this is just
actually a lot of women are like hold on
a second hold on hold on like we're not
like men on average when it comes to sex
some women are more like men some men
more like women the distributions
overlap but there's a pretty big
difference in the kind of psychology of
sex for men and women they're just
they're just is and then how does that
work when it's magic it works really
well but it doesn't work by itself we
have to have elaborate institutions and
rules and forms and courtships and Etc
uh in order to kind of make it work and
in fact like what was like I don't know
70 of literature is probably based on
that I was really struck recently
actually that um there's been an
increase in the interest of gen Z women
uh for romantic literature they're
reading more Romance
do we know what kind of romance are
reading like is it traditional Pirates
werewolves yeah yeah I mean it's quite
traditional in this kind of sense and
and again I find that just that's
sociologically interesting isn't it it's
like okay so what's happening there and
you might I think it's reasonable to
speculate that it might because maybe
that's missing a little bit in
contemporary Society right where's that
where's the romance
even saying romance makes makes you
sound uh you know that ship sailed
anyway I've said chivalry I've said
courtship I've said right but but
Romance seriously but that's considered
outdated
I think among some people doesn't it
sound old-fashioned I mean it's like you
know making love I remember once being
teased by a colleague of mine when when
I I had used the phrase making love
and she said like you mean having sex
so old
you're so old making love who makes love
right what are you talking about you
should do you mean having sex
and that was a real moment for you I
thought no I no I actually mean making
love
um but that sounds like a really
semantic difference but actually of
course we get it right it is making love
and it can sometimes be having sex right
and it's in the kind of the two and how
the how how does having sex become
making love and when and how and maybe
this was partly what you were getting at
the your story which I'm grateful for
you sharing because I think a lot of men
will probably resonate with that story
um like I'm trying to do the right thing
and the result is I don't get laid
um and so I think we we're in danger of
just
missing the fact that these these things
just don't happen by themselves right
you're you've been emphasizing
throughout this conversation the
importance of kind of our biological you
know hard drives or whatever kind of
language or I use I think that there's a
real danger we miss that but I think
it's incredibly important that the
interaction between biology and culture
is where the really interesting work is
it's how do cultures
interact with our biology in ways that
make for flourishing lives for everybody
men and women what kind of culture do we
need that allows us all to flourish even
in a world where there are these kind of
differences and that's that's a question
that's probably as old as Humanity
itself
but it's one that we're having we have
to ask differently all the time I'm
having to ask it differently again so to
that extent there's nothing new here
we're just having to ask the question
again which is okay what does it mean
and now we're having to ask it in a
world where as we've discussed huge
economic changes in power relationships
between men and women okay so what do
all these things mean now
and we have to come up with better
answers than the ones we've come up with
but even before that
we have to agree it as a question
and right now I'm not sure that everyone
agrees that there's even a question
which is to be answered yeah I think one
of the most important things to get to
that that we have to cover is what is
good like both of us have
um made assumptions throughout this
about oh we should do that we ought to
do that whatever but that's predicated
on an assumption of what
what the desired outcome is and this is
something that I find most people never
take the time to pull into their
conscious mind so if you had to describe
the thing that we're striving towards at
the highest level just to orient to what
I'm asking at the highest level
um I think we ought and I use that as a
moral statement we ought to always be
steering towards what creates the most
human flourishing and reduces human
suffering yes now as we shrink down to
this topic of the relationship between
the genders
um what ought we be striving towards
what is good well I think that I think
you've framed it exactly correctly which
is around human flourishing but then the
question is like well what does that
look like for particular people and here
I'm going to draw on some of my my
earlier intellectual underpinnings which
is John Stuart Mills liberalism my Mills
biographer and Mill's view about
flourishing is that it has to be back to
your point about going for it autonomous
so it has to be to some extent driven
right it has to be about individuality
not individualism
well individualism is I'm just all about
me right and so my world view just says
that I'm gonna be it's essentially
selfish would be a kind of reasonable
way to think about it or a kind of world
where you just think it's every man for
himself Hobbs war of all against all
individuality is a description of the
fact that everybody is different and
these different things to flourish
they're biologically different they're
culturally different they're just made
differently their genes are different
their interests are different their
tastes are different their preferences
are different and Mills insistence on
individuality is what drove him to being
kind of a full liberal and by the way I
would argue that probably the most
important 19th century feminist
certainly in the in the UK
but that individuality that being who I
am
and growing this sense of growth just
intrinsic to liberalism properly
understood but I but also to lots of
theologies by the way I mean I think
like a good a lot of good theologies are
all about growth in that case it would
be growing towards God in Mill's case it
would be just growing to being the
better version of yourself and some of
this sounds quite schlocky right I'm
aware of that right be the best person
you can be Etc but actually like it is
just this sense of it's about
development and it's about growth and
it's about reaching it's very organic
that means that we have to have a real
understanding of our own nature and that
includes our bodies
our biology and our brains and our
skills and our culture and our
upbringing and our relationships like
who I am in the world right am I am am I
an animal yes absolutely right am I
sitting here I need to pee as it happens
right so I'm being reminded right now
that I'm an animal because I need to pee
okay so like the fact that my bladder is
telling me you need to pee good reminder
that I'm an animal all right uh but I'm
also a in a in a culture where I'm just
not going to get out and pee here right
I'm going to go to a restroom I've been
taught by culture you're welcome
um so I'm going to go kind of somewhere
else just about it's about the cut the
culture will tell me in another culture
by the way I'll just go and pee over
there right so this culture but then by
the way there's also me Richard and I'm
and I might decide I'm not going to pee
now because I'm trying to hold it for
some reason and extend my whatever
reason and so this the triangle of
biology culture and individual
is where flourishing occurs and we want
to get to a society where as much as
possible the individual
within a culture has the opportunity to
flourish but you don't have to eradicate
biology and you don't have to LEAP past
culture so some people would say Blank
Slate biology doesn't matter other
people would say culture is the problem
let's erase it all let's just have a
revolution
right those would be the kind of you
know the French revolutionaries or
whoever it is
Etc in order for the individual to
flourish and I actually think that the
real
the the real sweet spot is in
recognizing that all three of those
matter
yeah that seems profoundly true so now
the question becomes though one of those
the biology takes care of itself at
least for now Gene editing is going to
be a thing but that's beyond the scope
of this conversation
um the individual is the part I most
want to talk about but
Society is the hammer that scares me
so one of the things I want to know are
you quite libertarian would that be a
focus no actually I thought I on paper I
feel like I should be a Libertarian but
I'm so enmeshed in reality that I'm like
dude if you don't have some guideposts
if you don't have people nudging each
other in the right direction it's just
you're not going to scale like that
probably works when we're you know in
hunter-gatherer bands of 100 to 150
right but I consider modern society to
be a miracle that I want to continue to
be a part of and so very much I'm I am
all for uh government well manicured the
problem is that I think governments like
anything can go pathological and so the
way that I see it is everything is on a
scale and you government will be the
easiest one to talk about so you have
the left and the right the left can
become pathological and the right can
become pathological and both sides go
towards tyranny and so our job as as
people that are just historically aware
and and understand that history is
driven biology in my estimation and so
it's like okay understand thy selves as
a species understand thy structures and
know that up you can slam to this side
if you haven't read Mao the untold story
like if you want a real picture of how
the left goes so pathological that a
hundred plus million people die
terrifying and then obviously the right
and the way that it goes wrong is so
very well documented thanks to Hitler
and a bunch of other Psychopaths and so
it's like we understand that there is
pathology but if we can understand that
the pathologies are on both sides and so
now we have to find it isn't even just
the middle what you're trying to find in
my estimation is the tension between two
ideologies I think there is a biological
reason that we have a left and a right
and I think that biological reason is
that for a society to scale the way that
we do and you've all know a harari's
idea of we're the only animal
that can cooperate flexibly at this
scale okay so how is it that we do that
I think we do that the evolution goes
you need two things one is compassion
people can't be left to just die like
you have to look out for the group
otherwise you're not going to have any
social cohesion so Nature has rewarded
The Living Daylights out of us for being
willing to jump into a freezing River to
save somebody that we don't even know
like that's beautiful when I hear that
story I moved and all of that biology
that makes me respond so powerfully to
the story that makes that guy jump into
the river it's amazing and it's super
important but hey there's pathology on
that side which is the group is the only
thing that matters and you decimate the
individual so then you have to have on
the other side the people that go whoa
free rider problem you can't just let
the group override the individual the
individual is the thing that we need to
care about it's about personal
responsibility and my thing is there's
pathology on that side so now what you
need is the dynamic tension between the
two this is why my marriage is strong
because my wife and I came into this and
I said hey I think differently than you
you think differently than me but the
way you think is worthy and thank God
you think differently to me and the way
I think is worthy and thank God I think
differently than you so what I'm never
going to do is say oh you're an idiot
the way that you think is done you have
to be like me yeah I'm gonna say hey so
you want the Dynamics your marriage is
this it's just an example Lewis a
liberal pluralist Society in the sense
of like recognizing that difference I
like the way you framed it and the way I
think about this now is that
the that both you get the status left
and the status right to user in our
director the goal is seize the state and
enforce our view of the good right and
turns out to be bad but like that's our
view right we have to we're gonna we're
gonna have a society conform to our view
of the good or the human nature or
whatever
and then there's the stereotypically
kind of anarchic or libertarian view
which is like get everybody out of the
way no one judges anybody else as long
as I don't harm somebody else I can do
whatever the hell I want
but what's really really important is
culture
so in between the coercive power of the
state
and the kind of quotes atomized
individual is culture the interaction
that's um it's what's the uh the phrase
from there's this beautiful book if
you're an egalitarian how come you're so
rich by Jerry Cohen it's a fantastic
book and in there he says cultures are
created in the thick of everyday life
and I love that phrase because that diet
is the thick of everyday life in the
interaction in the relationships in the
institutions we build Etc which might
then end up with legal Force Etc but
culture is what moderates expresses
incentivizes rewards certain kinds of
behavior such that if cultures are
healthy you don't need as much law
it's when cultures are failing that you
need stronger States
but it's not because just the
individuals are doing their own thing so
these Carnegie hero the guy going into
the river right he gets this civilian
hero what the government doesn't do
anything his parents don't get a tax
break
no one pays him to jump in the river
right there's no public policy for
jumping into a freezing River To Save
Somebody But nor would someone do that
in a society that's truly just about the
individual why would you save a stranger
right and the answer is partly biology
but that's the result of culture and
culture and biology co-evolve in such a
way that that kind of behavior is
rewarded and rewarding
and so both both sides in these debates
not least when you have a cultural War
are actually in some ways disrespectful
of culture because what they're not
doing is saying let's allow our culture
to develop because cultures are really
good at developing to chain like as and
it has to develop now to accommodate
these differences between men and women
right this is where I'm going to end
which is like actually it's culture
that's going to save us it's culture
that's going to help men and women to
succeed but the culture Warriors they're
not interested they don't trust culture
they just want to take the culture and
force it on somebody else
they're not fighting over culture in
that sense they're fighting for culture
and that's exactly their own kind of
culture War Richard this has been
amazing where can people find you I have
a sub stack of boys and men uh and so
I'd love people to subscribe to that
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be legendary take care peace
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