Kind: captions
Language: en
I will start us with a Washington Post
survey that shows that the rate of
sexlessness among young men has tripled
in the decade leading up to 2018
what in the hell is going on yeah so
that that is a big kind of statistic
that was flying around there there's
some new statistics actually that show
that that sexlessness uniquely being
towards young men has actually reversed
somewhat and part of that might be that
during the pandemic young men might have
been more risk-taking and they'd be more
inclined to go out during the pandemic
they were taking bigger risks I thought
for sure that number was going to go the
other way right yeah but young men would
be less kind of uh disgust sensitive
than women so they'd be willing to maybe
take the risk especially for sex so that
has reversed why would that's why would
that go up during the pandemic like that
felt like a time where everybody was
becoming more and more risk averse so
what what about being isolated or
clamped down on or even just the risk of
literal death made them more risk-taking
so the sexlessness for men was going up
up until 2018 but now the new statistics
are showing that it's not uniquely men
that are sexless with the women are
virtually overtaken them and that's if
what we're saying it might be a response
to the pandemic that women would be
staying in more risk adverse comparing
to men men would actually go out and
take the risk to have sex but uh so what
I'm trying to wrap my head around is is
that a response to women pulling back
which then make men go harder is that
what we're talking about yeah I think
men typically will be more willing to
take the risk women won't there'll be
fewer women who will take the risk and
more men would be willing to have sex
with them that's just one Theory the
other idea could be that it's just a
naturally kind of cycling back and forth
that this unique spike in sexlessness
for young men wasn't any major artifact
uh at all and it's kind of evening out
so if it went up I think the stat was 28
percent
what's it down to now I can't recall the
exact statistic now but I know that it's
reversed and that women have overtaken
that it's there's more yeah are we
talking 26 are we back down to like 10
12 I think it was around the 12 Mark 12
15. so it properly just completely
reversed so mating crisis over we're
good not necessarily so uh you know I've
spoken about that statistic on podcasts
before as one kind of data point in what
we call the larger amazing crisis but to
think about it as a made in crisis the
evidence of a young men reporting having
sex within the last year I don't think
it's the best evidence of any phenomenon
you can still have this made in crisis
with a lot of dissatisfaction with the
mailing Market from both sexes for men
and for women and there's still a lot of
data points in that so for example new
Pew research showed that upwards of 30
percent of men just simply aren't even
seeking romantic relations at all even
for casual sex they're just backing out
completely so help me reconcile that we
went from 20 seclessness before the
pandemic to its drop back down we don't
know the exact number but more or less
reversed but guys are pursuing sex less
how do I I don't know how to make that
make sense yeah so it's kind of just
pointing to this having sex one time
within the last year isn't necessarily
the greatest country sex ones yeah like
they're not pursuing it yes just like
does that you define the what is then if
you think there is a mating crisis I I
thought the mating crisis was people are
not having sex so we're putting that on
the Shelf so if it isn't that what is
the mating crisis okay so the maiden
crisis can be traced back to an essay my
supervisor wrote in 2016. so my
supervisor is Dr David Buss at the
University of Texas at Austin an
evolutionary psychologist and he wrote
this this essay saying the amazing
crisis among educated women you talk
talks about this mismatch Between Women
beginning to outpace men in educational
settings so he used the University of
Texas at Austin as an example where
women are beginning to outpace men in
education at rapid rates it's called the
pink campus and I know you've had
Richard Reeves on to talk to you in the
podcast and he lays out all of those
statistics in his book of boys and men
now when you combine this socio-economic
success of young women in recent decades
with their evolved mate preference for
an equal or higher status mate it just
simply means that there's a skew in
terms of the lack of eligible men that
are out there and when you have a skew
in a mating market like that so fewer
eligible men for women to compete for
the the market favors the scarcity so
those few men at the top that women are
interested in are less willing to commit
to long-term mating because they're the
scarcity and it becomes a problem so
women have a double-edged sword because
Highly Educated women are competing with
Highly Educated women and lower educated
women for the same increasingly small
pool of men that they're deeming
eligible
and you know you see articles every week
about this uh talking about how women
are beginning to freeze their eggs at
rapid rates in response to this lack of
eligible man out there
um you see can you so I know you've
already said it but I think it it Bears
when you say eligible men you mean women
have a set of criteria on average and
given the only thing you've listed so
far is college but I'm guessing that
there's going to be a broader set of
things at play than that yes but given
that the women are just demolishing men
into educational realm and that's one of
the criteria that they use to determine
eligibility yes uh that their their
narrowing the pool by being I don't I'm
gonna I'm gonna say too selective you're
gonna have a problem with that and
understandably so but from their
perspective just from a numbers game
it's too selective if you want a broad
pool yeah it is just literally making
narrowing your pool that you can choose
from and broadening willing to choose
from yes that's the thing I don't want
to get lost in this conversation just to
make it nice and sticky yes absolutely
but yeah when I think about it like that
I wonder what advice would I give to a
sister of mine if I had one I I don't
have a sister the perfect follow-up
question right what would I advise are
oh just simply lower your standards
marry a man less educated than yourself
even though you're not really sure
that's what you want I don't know if I
could bring myself to give that advice
and there is some evidence that um women
are beginning to do this and I think
that's somewhat inevitable so the
phenomenon or the mating strategy that I
described there of women tending to mate
with higher status Partners is called
hypergamy and you probably heard a lot
about that on internet discourse all
around the place but it's a very very
real phenomenon and um there is some
evidence that hypergamy is in Decline uh
women are beginning to marry men less
educated than a little in decline or a
lot in Decline uh I can't remember the
exact figures uh off my head but uh a
little in Decline but it still tends to
be the preference but they're beginning
to to mate down so to speak but this
comes with a whole host of other
problems so in those mate trips where
women beginning to mate down uh we see
increased infidelity for both sexes
increased use of insomnia anxiety and
depression medication among both sexes
you see a massive prevalence of intimate
partner violence there was a huge study
done on 27 EU countries with over 21
000 EU women and it showed that the
woman earning more or being higher
educated than her partner was a massive
risk factor for all types of intimate
partner violence Jesus which is kind of
a really dark finding but it makes sense
from another solutionary point of view
because in evolutionary psychology we
have something called mate retention
strategies and you have two strategies
to make retain to retain your mates you
have the benefit provisioning strategy
which means you can provision your
partner with so many benefits that she
doesn't want to leave she's happy to
stay she gets a lot of benefits from you
whereas if you don't have a lot of
benefits to provide you choose the cost
infliction mate retention strategy and
that's the type of inflicting costs on
your partner to lower her self-esteem so
she doesn't feel like she can leave you
in in the most extreme circumstances
that even includes intimate partner
violence so you might recognize that in
the kind of abusive language of abusive
men who might say who would ever have
you except me you're lucky to have me no
one will ever have you and you try and
lower your partner's self-esteem or
their sense of their own mate value so
they don't leave you for someone else
and that makes sense if you think about
a man who's suddenly threatened that his
wife is earning more than him
or has begun to earn more than him or is
higher educated she's spending her time
around other high status men more High
status than you she's away from you even
just from a proximity point of view you
are at risk a bigger risk of losing her
so it is a threat to you so a lot of men
do choose that that strategy which is a
pretty dark uh dark finding but one we
maybe need to reckon with as Richard
Reeves points out women are beginning to
outpace men so starkly
so let's go back to your hypothetical
sister what are we telling her yeah I
mean it's just an artifact of the modern
mating Market that the Sexes aren't
really depending on each other as role
mates in the same way if we think even
ancestrally two of the main things that
women used to rely on men for are
protection The Bodyguard hypothesis
protection from other men and protection
from the Hostile forces of nature that's
not really such a prescient Factor
anymore
and also it's a protection and
provisioning resources if women are
gathering their own resources the state
is protecting them as The Bodyguard now
for a large degree they might choose to
you know to just go their own way kind
of thing we hear about men going their
own way but it actually might be the
case that women are beginning to go
their own way and um you know it's just
not obvious what a woman might get out
of settling down and it might just be a
a bleak truth we have to reckon with
that for the past number of decades
maybe centuries women had been perhaps
settling with men that they ordinarily
wouldn't want out of strict economic
necessity or strict monogamy Norms that
I ask a really uncomfortable question go
ahead were they settling for men that
they didn't want or did that change the
context enough that there was just a
broader pool of men that they wanted
yeah I think the latter is probably more
true I don't think we had generations of
women who were like oh my god what have
I had to do I hate my husband I don't
think that's the case I just think we
had very strict kind of uh you know
stricter lines around role mates and it
was people were happy to kind of live in
that world you know there's a really
good book by a psychologist called Eli
Finkel called The All or Nothing
marriage and it talks about how in
recent decades we've began to put such a
high stakes on our marriages that we
demand them to be all things their your
partner must be sexually fulfilling to
you your best friend help you fulfill
your potential all of it all in one
package whereas for most of our
ancestral history or in recent decades
or recent centuries your partner was a
role mate that you chose to go through
life with there wasn't so many options
to choose from in your city you didn't
have access to the whole world on a
dating app to choose from so it's a very
very evolutionary novel mating Market
we're in now and one we really need to
think about all right so your sister now
better understands the problem but she
still does not know what on Earth she is
supposed to do
and I know you don't have like a a
preset answer but I think I my whole
thing in life is one ought to have a
method by which they think through a
difficult problem so help her and all of
the women listening right now and guys
honestly for that matter uh that are
listening how do they think through this
problem like there is is a thing that
they need to do and so when you talk to
Richard Reeves it's you can't leave men
behind you have to find a way to start
supercharging them and that for sure is
where I come at this problem is like
look as some I am married to a woman
that went from when we got married she
was going to be a mother and she was
going to raise the kids and then we end
up pivoting into our marriage and she's
now an entrepreneur doing her boss [ __ ]
thing and all that that was like a whole
thing like we had to figure out how to
navigate that not easy but one of the
things is and people are gonna hate this
but I was like a word like I'm going to
outperform you like I'm going to still
be somebody that you look at with
reverence and that meant that I also had
to step up my game so it's like I I am
both in need of encouraging her to
become everything that she wants to be
and then absolutely making it anathema
to my entire existence that I would ever
say slow down so I can lead yes so it's
like okay cool if she's running faster
and I want to lead and look I've got a
whole thing you need to be able to both
lead and follow I don't want people
taking this out of context but setting
that aside for a second we can talk
about that in a minute
but if I want her to still be able to
say I have dated a cross or up uh I have
to move faster as well right and I think
that that that is something that is
getting lost in society right now I
think there is a massive
um
we are I've heard you refer to this as
we're making the male way of moving
through life like the default thing I
don't think that's actually accurate I
think we're telling women like go be
aggressive go be dominant sort of
abstracting that from male-ism or
maleness uh and we're saying to men
don't take up so much space don't be so
aggressive that's icky that's toxic and
so you're masculinizing women you're
feminizing men and now you're asking
them to come together all while an
artificial womb it feels like it's six
weeks away it's like dude this feels
like a recipe for disaster
um so what say you I think you hit on
some real accurate uh cultural forces
and the kind of cultural rhetoric that's
happening with the the male default
being what you were encouraging women to
Aspire to every week you see this
article about how much better life is
for women not having been straddled with
a family and things like this
um and it's just not clear to me that
that goal is what women will want
forever and always it might be
throughout their 20s but most women are
equipped with evolved psychology to want
to start a family so I'll give you some
maybe folk wisdom from Mommy Costello my
mother she raised three boys she didn't
have any daughters but she told me that
if she had a daughter and she was facing
this problem she would advise her you
can have it all but not at the same time
so for women I think that's very
important is that this boss pitch energy
Paper Chasing throughout your 20s is
running up against a ticking clock the
people are kind of reluctant to talk
about because it's seen as quite sexist
to highlight that women have a narrow
window or window to get their uh you
know their biological kind of needs met
in terms of starting a family that is a
more time squeezed Mission for Women
but I really liked your idea of the
aspirational Viewpoint for men is that
yes the women have had the breaks taken
off them in education and the workplace
and they're killing it in a brain-based
economy rather than a broad-based
economy and yes that makes for fewer
eligible men and yes that sucks that
makes it harder for you and in the 1950s
you would have found it easy to get a
job and easy to get a wife but so what
that's where you are it's kind of you
take the Jordan Peterson kind of maxim
of pick yourself up by your bootstraps
book oh you kind of have to you don't
really have any other option you can
complain about the world and say I wish
it was different but you're not going to
slow women down now that kind of train
has run away and nor should we you know
there's probably so much of an economic
gain out of women's Liberation into the
workplace that that's not gonna go back
um and also just from a point of view of
the amount of women that now have
Financial Freedom to kind of not be
dependent on perhaps abusive men that's
a an undirect knowledge net good of
women's Liberation and women I speak to
talk to me about that they say oh it's a
great relief to no longer have you know
to be dependent and so that's one
positive that's not often talked about
but yeah so I think men need to be
aspirational yes we need to have a
cultural conversation about what we can
do to support them kind of in a
feminized education system so to speak
um but yeah aspirational is the way to
go for men and in terms of the
conversation towards women I would say
mother Costello had some good advice on
think about your timing of all these
things how does that play out so what is
have it all let's start with defining
that so if if we're saying have it all
by today's maybe vision of success about
having your own career having a great
husband and a family to all of it in the
one and women often talk about that
there's a lot of pressure to have all of
these and probably because they come up
against each other at awkward times so
just at the point when women are
beginning to really thrive in their
careers towards the end of their 20s
that's the point where they really
really want to start a family and you
know the gender pay Gap is really a
motherhood penalty kind of Gap and men
if they took a break from you go go into
that a little bit because I think this
is super controversial yeah but makes as
a as a CEO I'll just tell you this this
makes so much sense to me
so what why do you call it a motherhood
penalty why isn't it rightly understood
as just a gender pay Gap yeah because
there's a lot of evidence I believe in
22 specific cities in the U.S is very
apparent that women are actually even
out earning men up until the age of 29
and then it flips because that's the
precise age when women are kind of
exiting the workforce necessarily if
they want to have children if men had to
take time off work to have children they
would probably suffer a penalty as well
so you know I'm all for doing all sorts
of initiatives make Child Care easier
more support there follow like a
Scandinavian model to help people get
back into work after having a family all
for that but it's absolutely the case
that women just when they're about to
really thrive in their career and it
baffles me when people speak about the
gender pay gap on a very one-dimensional
level and speaking to you with your CEO
hat on you'll probably realize this you
don't want to lose the female talent you
have at that age right nobody does so
it's a you know and you see these
cultural kind of corporate drivers
Morgan Stanley releasing this um you
know report talking about how it's the
rise of the Shi economy and how majority
of working age women will be single and
childless by the year 2040 and it's like
you know is this the the vision is the
dream I don't know if that's the case
for most women who I so I will just tell
you this is fun talking to somebody who
knows evolutionary psychology so well
from an evolutionary standpoint I
promise you that is not the vision uh
just because Evolution bifurcated the
Sexes a very long time ago and said okay
we have to make this an incentive that
the Sexes will actually come together
and you're far more likely to have a
child that lives long enough to have a
child if you've got two parents coming
together and obviously making it and
then taking care of it but I think that
as you get into evolution narrowly novel
environments when when the rate of
change
from a cultural standpoint
outpaces The evolutionary ability to
keep up with it like I don't know that
there is a we get on the other side of
this and all as well and I'm a hyper
optimistic person but as I look at this
stuff the only way that I can stay
firmly like planted in the optimistic
Camp is when I just go it'll work itself
out somehow right in the what was it
Stephen Pinker it's like you can't look
at however many thousands of years of
tomorrow is better than today over and
over and of course there are blips and
wars and things like that but I mean
it's just the long Arc of History has
tended towards things getting better and
better and better
but I don't actually see the path and so
the I want to introduce an idea I've
never talked about it out loud so I
don't know how articulate I'm going to
be on this but this this feels like a
very important idea we have become aware
of the relation between the sexes
and we're aware of how much things can
be malleable and once you have that
level of self-awareness
in a world where you have the internet
and ideas can spread at the speed of
light there be there there comes this
um
everything is like self-referential it's
all Pastiche it's all
um it's so self-aware wink wink that I I
don't know that that goes anywhere other
than the the cynicism of the eternally
visible God I'm trying to put words at
something so uh
I grew up in the 80s and I fell in love
with filmmaking in the 80s and the
action genre of the 80s was very
unself-aware and so you could have
Arnold Schwarzenegger throw a knife into
a guy and it would pin him to uh a beam
behind him and stick around right and
you just laughed it was so great and so
unexpected now if you say that line
you're saying it like with a wink
because we've heard that line and and
that created
a a downfall of Cinema from my
perspective once everything became we're
so aware we we already know how a
movie's gonna begin we know that what
happened because you you have so many
books on like how screenplays were
structured that in the middle I'm going
to ruin it for people that haven't
become aware of this yet in the middle
of a story it's called the midpoint
you're going to be as far away from how
you're going to be at the end as
possible so if they have completely
failed at the midpoint guaranteed they
succeed in the end and vice versa
and so once all of that stuff is so
known you have a real problem of like
having a fresh story so once men and
women both know like uh oh women uh
hypergamy is a real thing uh women use
their sexuality to attract men uh no
matter how old the guy gets he finds a
22 year old attractive uh women look for
status money access resource like it's
just so known that you get what I'll
call the Obama effect which actually
learn from you okay and this is uh this
is a really interesting idea so he
writes his book his Memoir and says oh I
read these books in order to be
attractive to these different women and
then people went nuts on them like oh my
God they're so misogynistic and so
manipulative it's like but that is life
that is evolution but now that we're all
aware of it it feels icky yeah it's
almost too on the nose to do something
like that you know get the goal get the
girl but that feels like such an
intuitive idea for young men you can
reboot your life your health even your
career anything you want all you need is
discipline I can teach you the tactics
that I learned while growing a billion
dollar business that will allow you to
see your goals through whether you want
better health stronger relationships a
more successful career any of that is
possible with the mindset and business
programs in Impact Theory University
join the thousands of students who have
already accomplished amazing things tap
now for a free trial and get started
today
that's what I'm saying it's because
we're now aware of it it's like when it
was you just sort of figured it out like
I figured it out along the way I was
very bad with women in the beginning I
learn how to play the game of
um seduction of becoming sexually
attractive all of that but I didn't
think of it as a game and so it wasn't
icky I was just like oh okay this is
what I have to do wow I'm really
beginning to understand it but now once
there's like websites memes it's so
obvious now it's like
am I being manipulated because
somebody's making themselves more
attractive to me it's just the tactics
are so visible that cynicism seems the
only outcome and I don't know how we
step back from the precipice of cynicism
where it's like even as I say guys go
get [ __ ] tough go make money go
figure out making money as a proxy for
you know how to control your environment
you know how to create something of
value uh you know how to organize people
there's a whole list of things that go
along with your ability to make money
but go make money it's super valuable it
is not an end in itself it is a uh it's
the great facilitator as I call it
anyway
make money Master your emotions get
physically strong educate the [ __ ] out
of yourself like do all of these things
gain confidence
but now that it's like a known thing
it's like you get oh it's toxic
masculinity you shouldn't do it like how
do we step back from that yeah it's
strange and even like as benign
self-development advice as Jordan
Peterson gets framed as misogynistic
it's as if to develop yourself
particularly with the goal of achieving
romantic success that that gets framed
as misogynistic but you touched on a
very interesting point there earlier as
well about how you had to learn the game
or you had to go through the trial and
error and I was talking with my friend
Chris Williamson about this and we
talked about how the mating market and
The Mating Game is the only game in town
that you don't get to practice for it's
a real baptism of fire you have to go in
there clumsily develop yourself figure
out what works get your heart broken get
rejected get all of that anxiety and
people being very anxious and risk
adverse know are not willing to do that
and even to do that is also kind of seen
as to make those mistakes along the way
in the mating Market it comes with a lot
of costs and you mentioned like the
metoo era there's potentially a lot of
real costs associated with making a lot
of mistakes along the way there so I
mentioned that before we started rolling
so for people that
um don't know so I married my student it
was a school for adults
um but yeah we in another timeline I
often say that we're a metoo story but
the reason I had brought that up and
this goes back to the same idea is I was
24 when I met my now wife and I was dumb
I was
um undereducated in life I did not make
much money at all and yet I was able to
attract her because she saw me teaching
so it was me teaching something that I
knew and loved and was passionate about
she saw me at the front of a classroom
so it's like forget what the name for
that is where where when other women are
paying attention to you or when people
are paying attention to you it's a
status thing so she me everyone in the
room is paying attention to me I know
more about anybody in the class about
this thing and so it was like a very
artificial environment but the perfect
environment for a woman to find me
attractive and it's like yeah of course
like one I want to be very clear I made
a move on exactly one student and I
ended up marrying her so this was not
like a thing but I was very aware that
that was
um going to put me in my best light yeah
and you know throughout recent decades
and recent history a lot of people met
their partner at work uh you know both
my brothers are married to or engaged to
women they met at work as well so you
know it's not like this absolute Fringe
phenomenon that should be always frowned
upon and if you close that door for
people to you know you're no longer
allowed to me he's a romantic partner at
work we spend all our time at work it's
like you're in proximity to people kind
of with similar interests they're gonna
see you who fully shine in a industry
that you belong in and should be
thriving in of course romance is going
to Blossom there so that seems a bit of
a misguided cultural idea to just
completely shut down a workplace
romances and yeah I think that's uh it
would be a shame if that was a complete
I mean I believe even like Facebook or
Netflix have a policy whereby it's just
not allowed at work for employees to get
together which seems very strange
it doesn't seem strange to me again
putting my CEO hat back on it seems
stupid to me but it is not strange in a
world where it's lawsuits this that and
the other like look and this is easier
for me because I'm married but when I
step into the work realm I turn my
sexuality off because I am so paranoid
about somebody misreading it and feeling
like a power play or whatever and
um again this is one of those where I I
don't know how we step back from this
but you can't expect anyone guys or
girls because you could easily what I
mean is guys typically make the first
move but even if you flipped it and said
women are going to make the first move
you are still going to run into a
problem where an unwanted Advance is
made yeah and to your point about this
is the one thing where you don't get to
practice even if you could practice it
it's also the one thing that when you
make the move for real like we're living
in a time right now we're that an
unwanted Advance is like seen as
violence like literally said that is
violence yeah and so it's like whoa like
what play that one out where do you
think that goes for sure I think the
idea of flipping it flipping the Sexes
there would have more legs than perhaps
we might think because although it is
still making a move uh men would
perceive a move being made on them as
much less harmful even sexual harassment
men perceive it as way less harmful when
it's uh towards a man
um men perceive sexual harassment as
less harmful generally towards men or
women but specifically towards men so
flipping it would be I think would have
some legs I think the worst most men
would probably be flattered and say so
why don't we flip it uh I think that the
desire is not there for women I think
most women want to be pursued rather
than pursue men themselves uh it's just
that they want to be pursued by men they
deem eligible or competent and they've
got this kind of Avenue to repel
um or to kind of punitively punish men
they don't deem eligible who are giving
them the ick for coming on to them
um which is a shame you know it it's a
there's a funny phenomenon because men
have this sexual over perception bias
whereby we perceive a smile from a woman
as giving us sexual interest and this is
there's good evolutionary reasons for
this is because our ancestors weren't
the ones who missed a queue of sexual
interest it's actually like the smoke
detector principle it's better to be
overly sensitive to these cues than to
miss them so we've got this over
perception bias but meanwhile women have
got uh for a whole host of reasons
they've got a strategy to kind of give
soft rejection or to misrepresent
romantic interest for a whole variety of
interests one of which could be wanting
to feel safe not feeling safe enough to
forthrightly reject someone so you've
got these two mechanisms running into
each other where women are giving this
kind of ambiguous no or token resistance
to romantic Pursuit and men are kind of
learning from that combine this with
their over perception bias and you've
got a recipe kind of for a disaster
there it's a strength I think both sexes
could do better to understand
engage in better cross-sex mind reading
which is something our lab is studying
right now try to see things from the
other's point of view learn about these
biases that exist and be more maybe
forthright and clear I do have sympathy
with women who say that they're
reluctant to give firm rejections to men
because I've seen some men get very
aggressive even in response to to
rejection
um which isn't very nice for a woman to
have to deliver but there's a whole host
of other reasons women misrepresent
romantic interest 33 of women report to
have engaged in a foodie call which is
misrepresenting romantic interest in
order to dine at a man's expense whoa
yeah so it's pretty high you'd think and
fruity calls are a real thing yeah and
you imagine this drives a frustrated
young man on the dating scene crazy
because I heard that the average cost of
a first date in New York was ninety
dollars and it's like wow if you a young
man and you don't have a lot of money
and you get burned with a few foodie
calls what a Tinder keg for resentment
towards the other sex you know
so it's not good you know I don't know
I'm not saying that's very typical
that's 33 of women have engaged in a
foodie call at some point I don't know
how typical it is or how often the
frequency they engage with it but uh
more common than maybe we thought that
is shockingly uh High by what I would
have guessed but um I bet you're real
happy you're married now yeah it's well
so I'm real happy that I'm married for a
lot of reasons like when I think about
uh I just missed online dating so that
wasn't even a possibility I'm trying to
make sure that's true as far as I
remember it was not a possibility when I
met my wife shortly after we got married
it started to be like a real Fringe like
oh God can you believe cringe cringe
um but
it wasn't an option and so I'm very glad
about that now that I hear more and more
sort of what that ends up becoming uh in
terms of
um creating this very interesting thing
where you talked about this at the
beginning where a very small percentage
of men that are quote unquote eligible
which I want to keep saying is
self-defined this is what women find
attractive but uh this super narrow pool
and then they become the scarce resource
I'm literally parroting back what you
said at the beginning but this is one of
those things that really took me a while
to understand this so women crush the
not not Crush they have a natural bias
to want a certain subset of things and
as they move up the sort of hierarchy of
performance that the raw number of men
in that begin to get smaller smaller
smaller small smaller but now because
the dating apps they can find those guys
but those guys still are a small
relative number they become the thing
that are pursued which then clicks over
into we should probably get more into
evolve preferences on on the sexes
because they are very very different
robust repeatable in study after study
but uh guys when they're the ones that
are the the coveted thing
um they're not going to commit and so
now you get another brick in this wall
of the mating crisis absolutely yeah so
the sociosexuality is either restricted
or unrestricted and it begins to mirror
the one that's in the scarcity so if
women are in the scarcity men are more
uh Keen to commit long-term and that's
just as a crude sex ratio kind of
balance but because they have to commit
to get the girl right exactly it's like
oh I need to I'll give you anything you
want there's not that many women around
I need to make sure I get one so you
mirror the the sociosexuality of the
other sex but yeah exactly right and
what online dating does as well is it
exacerbates this problem because it
reduces uh the person down to a set of
static data points so your height your
income or your educational level and
that really is what's weighted stronger
than your personality even which doesn't
really shine through in a dating app
despite what a lot of people say the the
example I always give is that dating
apps don't allow a nice Charming Irish
accent to compensate for being five foot
seven which leads me to believe I
wouldn't get on so great on dating apps
and and that's true I mean you know the
dating app hinge I heard the
relationship science director talking
with my friend Chris that if women set
their height preferences to six foot or
over in America they're reducing their
mating pool down to just 18 percent of
women men if they set it to six foot
three and over they're reducing it down
to just three percent of men so when
you're skewing the sex ratio against you
like that and encouraging men to see
themselves as this eligible men to see
themselves as the scarcity that's uh
setting the deck against yourself for
women which is and that's so interesting
because one this whole arms race begins
with height is a an easy one to talk
about but looking at the I have ladies
you have to forgive me this is what it's
called uh it's like the female
delusional calculator or female delusion
calculator something like that so and we
we did a test here at the office and we
said all right ladies uh give me a guess
six foot or higher a hundred thousand or
dollars or above uh not obese and any
ethnicity what do you think the
percentage ends up being it's 0.35 and
they were all guessing like 15 20 30
were like you are so far off and those
like the the sort of Meme and culture is
like well that's what I should get and
that doesn't seem that crazy but in
reality it's a ridiculously small
ridiculously small less than half a
percent yeah and in terms of like coming
at it from an evolved made preference of
point of view the selection pressures
that would have acted on female
chooziness for height and formidability
are that the idea of protection and
ability to provision resources it's an
example of evolutionary mismatch and
it's obviously a very convenient one for
me being five foot seven to talk about
but it maybe it's time we let that one
go you know that's hilarious yeah so
when we going back to like what what is
it that we can do about this so what
advice do you have for young people
anybody male female either like how do
we navigate this so guys we know like
you can push yourself you can make
yourself better but for real for real
like what do we do with women is it
paint a new picture motherhood is rad
and is it just beating that drum is it
um
uh we need to socially Champion people
that are far more feminine and aren't
stepping into a more masculine role like
what do we do for real so I'm optimistic
that the pendulum for women and their
drives might sling back towards the
middle right now it's what they want or
what Society reinforces both kind of
things because they'll kind of work in
tandem to some extent so it's not that
long ago it's only a number of decades
that women have really had the breaks
taken off them in education in the
workplace and they're beginning to kind
of really shine so it's a very novel
kind of thing and it's like the thing to
do of oh you know make your feminist
ancestors really proud you know what
would they think if you went to be a
Trad wife stay-at-home mom you know it's
kind of repellent right the nightmare
scenario can't do that but that pendulum
might swing and it might become a bit
more loose that people can choose from a
variety of different options which is
good right now the the main option seems
to be boss pitch energy but that might
cool as it becomes a little less novel
that women can do this
um one thing I would like to see happen
but I'm not I'm less optimistic about is
that made preferences
are very very sensitive to what we
assign status to so you can assign
status to any number of things so it's
not outside the realm of possibility
that you mean for men or for men and
women for men and for women what makes
it there is some sex difference that
physical Beauty results in high status
for women in a way that it doesn't
necessarily for men and kind of
resources reduces in status and strength
results and status for men in a way that
it doesn't for women
um but status is to some degree
arbitrary so there's a really good book
by an author called will store called
the status game really good book and it
talks about how there's this tribe and
they assign status to whichever farmer
in their tribe can grow the biggest yams
and that is the high status thing to do
so it kind of shows you this flexibility
of status so what I'm optimistic I don't
know that I agree with that okay so uh
for instance are women going to ever be
prized by men for the ability to grow
big yam
less likely but what I mean is the male
status what we assign status to for men
could be a bit more malleable yep so but
on that so one we've already now slashed
it now it's about men's status can be
malleable
but if there was no Fitness to the yam
thing do you think it would ever catch
on like for instance I've heard you talk
um not I don't mean this word in a bad
way but I've heard you talk
disparagingly about guys if you're
trying to make video games your status
thing women just do not care and so I
wouldn't pursue that angle uh and I yeah
I probably agree it's like I think I
agree with uh honorable exception I
think the really high status Gamers I've
come to learn uh can actually be kind of
very successful in the mission I I think
that that has to do with money and fame
I don't think it has to do with gaming
right and it's a very narrow pool of
those Gamers that are going to reach
those at those Heights and but yeah so
the the white pill I was trying to get
at is that maybe we could see a world
where we assign status to being a really
involved stay-at-home father but like I
say I'm less optimistic about it
um why are you you can give me either
the why you have enough optimism that
you say that or why you're pessimistic
that you want it to work but you
probably because I think that will never
work I'm less optimistic because none of
the data shows that that's what women
want there's one study that showed that
just five percent of young women desire
a partnership where they work full-time
and their partner works part-time or not
at all so that's very kind of Bleak and
that was the study of young women so
you'd think that those younger women
would be more primed to say yeah I'm
very egalitarian I could work and my
mates could be the stay at home dad so
there doesn't seem to be any uh made
preference shift for women there and
I'm optimistic or hopeful because I
think involved fathers are really
beneficial to families and to children
and that's something really important
that we need to as well as lionizing
motherhood we need to lionize fatherhood
too and involvement yes
but so uh
men as
mothers does not strike me as a winning
thing and I I trust me I hear the
comments Lighting on fire as I say those
words but what you're describing I will
say is traditionally the feminine role
and the reason that I think Evolution
will get behind that is from a
physiological standpoint only a mother
can breastfeed and give birth PS and so
once your Evolution you have to optimize
one of the sects to carry the baby to
term and then breastfeed it and I don't
think it's a mistake that Evolution
optimized just like I'm gonna put all of
those things in one bucket so I'm going
to optimize the the female hip design
for child bearing I'm going to optimize
the breast design for breastfeeding and
by the way I'm going to optimize the
brain design to care enough about this
infant to be able to pick up on cues and
maybe a guy doesn't pick up on also P.S
15 of women have a fourth photoreceptor
could that be tied to raising infants as
they can see different colors in their
cheeks and so they can really understand
I don't know I'm just saying that from
from a biological perspective evolution
is honed each of us to be good at
something and so when I think about
um evolved preferences a hundred percent
culture plays into this but again I've
heard you say that culture is Downstream
of biology which I agree very much and I
don't think that an alien civilization
their culture would look anything like
ours uh presuming that they evolved in
some different way so if culture is
Downstream of biology and evolution has
optimized one of us for the the very
tactile early uh nurturing of an infant
and the other for something else which
we can get into what that is in a minute
but I don't think that culturally you
could try to reinforce something that
goes against the biology so to be very
pointed I don't think you can ever get
culture to say a man staying at home and
taking care of an infant is of course
one-offs 100 but I don't think that will
ever take over the the
the physical preference uh it's a
terrible way to say it but the on mass
preference of women because it doesn't
have an evolutionary correlate
yeah absolutely yeah so the way we
describe it is that genes hold culture
on a leash and the culture is a
biological output and uh yeah ultimately
I do think you're right we'll neither
the mate preference won't shift or it
won't shift very fast anyway or in great
numbers uh and also just the personality
inclination of males to be interested in
being that involved in the home uh
humans are a remarkable ape and that's
the male invests as much as it does but
you're right to point out that males
invest far less than women do so yeah
it's a Perhaps it is as Bleak as we
might think yeah yeah I mean uh I won't
give myself over to bleakness just yet
but this does feel like something that
for us to get to a winning solution
people have to be able to confront the
truth the reality of how things actually
are and then we can build things that
work okay so uh this was me responding
to your idea of
um
involved fathers and I think that's
critically important so now from an
evolutionary lens what does a um an
involved father look like if it's
different than the picture that not to
get you in trouble that I just painted
of
um a more feminine role
so the main role of fathers outside of
Just The Bodyguard hypothesis of
protecting is a teaching and teaching by
action so men are very good at kind of
the Rough and Tumble and learning that
way and kind of making children feel
safe kind of thing and encouraging them
to take risks and go out and learn about
the world whereas women would be more
risky risk averse and be like oh don't
take a risk don't cycle your bike out in
the street come on you know just very
much keep safe safety conscious whereas
men are kind of like encouraging the
child it fortifies the child with an
ability to navigate the world in a way
that the safetyism of a female typical
parenting doesn't so I think that's a
huge one and if we look at the kind of
the current malaise of teenagers or
young people they're exactly this
problem they're safety conscious safety
is the Paramount value of all values and
they just don't take risks uh so that
could be lacking that could be just
would you call that the feminization of
culture perhaps yeah that's kind of
perhaps yeah does it make you uneasy to
say that a little but um just because
there's such variability among men and
women but no I think uh female typical
parenting certainly looks like more
safety oriented than uh than male
parenting when you say that there's so
much variability what do you mean uh
it's just that you know a lot of women
will actually have more male typical
psychology or male typical Behavior you
know I just hear the uh the complaints
of people saying well I know 10 women
who are not safety oriented at all so
you always got to kind of give yourself
a bit of ass Comfort there yeah so I
mean well let's address that head on so
um one I want to be very clear and I'm
sure I speak for both of us women should
be able to be whatever they want yes uh
I'm married to a woman that has chosen
not to have kids word I'm married to a
woman that is trying to be the best
entrepreneur that she can be word I love
it the most like I'm still with this
woman I'm in awe of her she's
unbelievable but at the same time I'm
very honest that that transition was
difficult it wasn't like oh okay cool
like we had to really think about what
that means and like how do we
um you know process through that how do
we position ourselves because I will say
that I think that
um not having kids is a way higher risk
strategy for especially women but I
think it's even a high risk strategy for
men in terms of being fulfilled at the
end of your life and I think if you go
into it with your eyes wide open then
you can mitigate those risks by how you
structure your life how you frame your
life intellectually how you think about
it but if you just go into a blind lead
there's going to be a real problem
anyway I say all of that in response to
um for a long time I was very hesitant
to even form a thought about how I
actually thought this all should be
because I was worried about the backlash
and uh when covid kicked off for a whole
host of reasons I realized that I needed
to start figuring out how I think
through these problems because I don't I
don't have wisdom on everything that I
talk about so sometimes I'm just like
okay how would I process through that
problem but when I get to something like
looking at what's happening in culture
right now it this does seem to be like
the feminization of culture and
I I think
that the way we should all be looking at
this and I think this is true for a lot
of things not just the male female
dichotomy I think there's a lot of
dichotomies in life's own business
there's one between a Visionary and an
operator and the solution to all of
these is the thing that makes it work is
the tension between the two and you
should never want for the conversion of
the other so for instance I don't if my
wife and I had kids I would not want for
her to convert to a masculine way
because oh my God like you're going to
make them scared to take risks no it's
going to be the tension between the two
of us where you're trying to keep them
safe I'm trying to encourage them to
take risks and so between those two
things they will find their path if it's
just all masculine energy you're going
to have certain pathology on that side
if it's all feminine energy you're gonna
have pathology on that side so it's like
maybe for all of human history we've
seen the pathology of too much masculine
energy cool I'm just saying the second
you swing to the other side and it's all
feminine energy you you will now get new
pathology
and until we can be honest like if guys
can't admit hey cost inflicting
strategies on your woman is evil dude
don't do that that's so gross you should
be mortified if you ever find yourself
saying the words like you could never
find somebody as good as me right you're
the [ __ ] yeah and it's like if we
can't look at that and be like that's
grotesque don't do that but at the same
time over here it's like there is going
to be things that are equally
problematic like telling a guy not to be
aggressive or telling guys that they
need to shut up and sit down no no if a
woman wants to beat me at anything she
is going to have to outperform me period
yeah facts simple as and like
that doesn't mean that I'm going to try
to compete with everybody at every point
it's like I'm going to have my areas but
if I'm trying to like be the best at
something I'm trying to be the best yeah
yeah and you touched on a point that
Jordan Peterson talks about about how
this kind of new experiment of sharing
the work domain uh actually is pretty
novel
um you know for most of our ancestral
history we're different roles different
work roles for the family and now you
hear of all sorts of arguments where men
complain that they're getting in trouble
for debating or arguing with their
female colleagues the exact same way
they would with a male colleague and
it's seen as being aggressive or
adversarial but it's just male typical
engagement it is aggressive and it is
adversary right and step up and that's
preferred by men but it's no longer
allowed it's kind of framed as being
aggressive or bullying if it's bullying
now now we've gone into judgment about
whether it's good or bad the reality is
so in in a work environment like this is
something I've thought a lot about
companies got a business way more than
they stay in business and if you can't
have a meritocracy where the best idea
wins you're done you will go out of
business people's livelihoods will be
destroyed uh any Equity the person has
built has destroyed the money that they
invested in the company or other people
invested in the company it's gone yeah
and so in the same way that legally
companies are treated like a a human I
would say that the it is it is a life
and death situation and the only way
forward is the best idea wins and I
don't care if that comes from a female
intern I don't care if it comes from a
male CEO it's like what what is the best
idea and if you're a [ __ ] as a CEO if
you're a [ __ ] and you think because
you're a guy you have better ideas
the market will slap you into Oblivion
yeah and if you're a woman that thinks
your ideas are better because you are
handling it in a more emotionally Deft
way
also false it's like the reality is you
need to be able to get ideas out on the
table you need to be able to debate them
openly without shutting the other person
down because as as much as I'm saying
yes it is aggressive and adversarial if
you shut down amazing people amazing
thinkers because you're you're so
dominant you're so aggressive that you
don't know how to elicit the idea and
how to elicit the feedback and how to
get people to challenge your ideas
you're also dead so it's like you can't
pretend that that some women maybe on
balance the the majority of women they
have a different way of moving through
the world you need to be aware of that
and all that but at the same time you
can't soft shoe it so much that you're
afraid to say this is what I think is
right I'm going to fight for this idea I
need you to fight back because if you
can't present a compelling argument
yeah yeah I agree
um and yeah but it is good to hear that
kind of refreshing meritocracy kind of
uh idea coming from you is good
something you said got me thinking about
uh also like the prioritizing of uh
almost like a Libertarian freedom of
choice for what you want for your own
life as the master value in recent
decades I only have one master value so
I'm not sure where you're headed my
master value is fulfillment right okay
but yeah what I mean is that there used
to be kind of these macro systems or the
the Fulfillment of having a family would
find you whether you wanted it or not
kind of thing uh because it's not it's
pretty recent that we've had the
emancipatory pill right so that's
actually causing two our status driving
mechanisms for women wanting status in
the workplace and the freedom to not be
reliant on a man and they're able to
kind of control their fertility and
they're running into that time window so
it's like this idea of you know this
individualism has is almost run rampant
that it's like oh yeah whatever you want
for your own life but if so many people
want that uh the boss pitch career
focused energy suddenly you've got a
macro problem of society is a you know a
fertility crisis because of the
individual choices in the market so it's
a it's almost like before the pill which
was massively emancipatory for sure
uh you would organically find your way
into kind of an equilibrium uh you'd
stumble into it whereas now with
complete control over fertility uh
almost complete control it means you're
kind of the individual choices that
might be better in some way for the
individual or they might think it's
better for themselves as an individual
is leading to a massive societal problem
so it's a yeah and here we are yeah I
mean this is the thing this is why I
feel like this is so important is you
know again just a plan to flag
I want to find the way back from the
precipice and I suppose I should Define
what that is in a second I want to find
the way back but in a hyper self-aware
world where everything feels
manipulative I don't know what the way
back is yeah so here's the precipice uh
the more you educate women the fewer
kids they have if you stop having too
many kids Society collapses now you'll
build back it'll be a pendulum and I
hear people say all the time that no
society's ever recovered from a
declining birth rate that's just
patently false look at what happened to
London during the black plague it was
like the population cut in half
still way bigger now than they were but
that is cold comfort to any one of us
that only get you know an 80 to 120 year
life span and the Pendulum ain't gonna
swing that far in that life so it's like
you get what you get while you're alive
and the fact that ah it'll bounce back
in 150 200 years like Jesus right that's
not not coming the opportunity cost for
and you know when I talk about this
fertility crisis sometimes incur incur a
little bit of flack of people saying oh
are you telling women what to do with
their bodies and things like that but
I'd refer to statistics that 80 of
childless women are involuntarily
childless that's by their own desires so
this is not me and any other culture
Warrior online talking about this
fertility crisis and women need to fix
it and do their handmaid's tale kind of
role this is saying women by your own
desires this is uh what you're saying is
lacking so it's not it's not a crisis
that I'm saying I'm unhappy about it's
even if we only look at Women's own
desires they're having fewer children
than they want what's your North Star
like if you're coming up with a solution
to a problem what's your North Star
I really don't know
um I don't know the way back when
especially we're met with such
resistance from oh you know is this even
a thing there are some people who are
saying oh ridiculous it's not even a
problem it's racist to say it's a
problem it's all sorts of things how you
know apparently it's racist to say it's
a problem because it's only certain
demographic facilities yeah so they're
saying oh there's plenty of people being
born in Africa which I think is actually
a quite a racist idea because it implies
oh the people being born in Africa we
can just import them in and they'll be
our labor force and that seems a bit
kind of icky to me actually from the
other side of things
um but yes it's kind of like until the
problem
is acknowledged I can't see I'm still
stuck there to be honest I'm trying to
move the needle uh on that front at
first get people to acknowledge in the
mainstream and we're beginning to get
there but it's still kind of framed as
this nefarious kind of idea to bang that
drum and so yeah I'm still kind of there
trying to move the needle for it towards
acknowledgment first
okay so I think with any of these things
whenever you're trying to think through
a problem this is certainly what I put
on myself you have to know what your
North Stars where are you trying to go
what are you trying to get to so in
business I call this the physics of
progress so the first rule of making
progress is you have to know what you're
trying to achieve what is your goal like
hyper hyper specific
so for me my very specific very
aggressive goal is human flourishing
which I will round to fulfillment okay
so fulfillment has a recipe as far as I
can tell which is evolutionarily derived
so
from what evolution has had to do to
ensure that you had kids that had kids
um you end up with the following recipe
you have to work really hard that that's
important you have to work hard if you
don't work hard none of this you just
won't feel what you want if you won't
feel fulfilled even if you do all the
following things that I'm about to say
if you don't work hard to get there it
just doesn't work psychologically so you
have to work really hard to gain a set
of skills that matter to you and the
group that are exciting to you it's got
to be fun and enjoyable that allow you
to serve not only yourself but the group
and if you do that if you're working
your ass off to gain a set of skills
that you care about towards a goal that
is exciting and honorable exciting is
self-evident Honorable means that it
uplifts a group as well as yourself you
will be fulfilled now I think that the
thing that does that that hides in that
is meaning and purpose so like I'm doing
the saying I'm killing myself I'm
working so hard but it gives my life
meaning I matter to the group and the
thing that historically gave you that
that made you feel like well I'm
sacrificing myself doing something that
I love but I'm sacrificing myself
to a greater good is having kids and the
second you don't have kids you don't
have built-in flourishing now that
doesn't mean that having kids works for
everybody because some people can't wrap
their heads around it they have the
wrong frame of reference it ends up
being a nightmare and having kids is
unrelentingly difficult and will
challenge you at every conceivable turn
and I think it was either Plato Plato or
Aristotle that said the only impossible
job is raising children
you're going to break them to some
degree it is what it is and so man when
I think like I when I meet parents and
I'm not kidding I will say thank you for
your service I'm not trying to be funny
I mean it as somebody that hasn't
decided not to have kids I am very
grateful to people that have decided to
have kids but what I know that my wife
and I have to contend with is especially
as we get older finding meaning and
purpose in our lives without children
without being able to point to them and
saying okay what I did mattered because
they will live on Beyond me we have to
really work to make sure that we're
thinking about our lives in the right
way so that we don't while we're working
feel like I matter and then as we stop
working go I don't matter anymore and
what did I Really Leave Behind it's like
so my wife and I have sat down okay
we're not having kids cool we have to
think through these things like how are
we going to address this and like think
about that and so if that's our North
Star then it's like hey all the stuff
that I'm saying about women like hey you
need to be thoughtful about like what
what does it look like to define success
as a woman and if it's going to be boss
[ __ ] it's like cool I'm totally here
for that but think through what are the
trade-offs right yeah same thing with
guys if you're not going to better
yourself if you're not going to push
yourself to chase status and be better
or you're not gonna have kids and and
bring a masculine influence
cool fair enough what's the trade-off
and it seems like a hasty uh move to
kind of disavow this evolutionary uh
present meaning making mechanism that
we've had you know that you know it
obviously didn't work for every parent
ever and always every parent didn't feel
a great sense of meaning but probably
most did you know and it probably found
them you hear lots of stories about uh
when um young parents have children and
they step up and they suddenly men in
particular when they're about to have a
child that can step up and really make
something of themselves very
motivational so it seems a very Hasty
thing to kind of disavow that culturally
on mass say oh no that's no longer going
to be the greatest source of meaning for
young people
um yeah that's a scary thing to just let
go of without a ready-made answer in
response it's like what are you going to
do instead have people got a good answer
I don't know if traveling the world and
you know that there's a real absence of
that meaning making I think yeah
okay so I want to have on my Tombstone
one simple phrase you're having a
biological experience
and I'm obsessed with that because if
you understand yourself and you
understand the way your brain works and
you understand the way the Body Works
then you can optimize towards
fulfillment because what I'm saying is
evolution has created that recipe not me
I'm just trying to point out what has
happened I'm not trying to say this is
what ought to have happened just it is
and so um given that you have an
evolutionary you have a background in
evolutionary psychology that's a better
way to say that uh what are the
differences between the sexes
differences between the Sexes so one of
the biggest personality differences is
the people versus things
um personality difference women tend to
be more interested in people and social
relationships and Men seem to be more
interested in things objects tinkering
with how they work in terms of sexual
psychology massive differences between
the Sexes there and the way we describe
it is that where the Sexes faced similar
selection pressures throughout our
ancestral environment so then we would
expect them to be the same so we both
faced the problem of getting food into
our body to fuel our body in the exact
same way so guess what men and women
treat food psychologically pretty much
the same same problems no major
asymmetry of difference between the
Sexes there sexual psychology is a
radically different ball game for women
versus for men women have far greater
obligatory parental investment so sex is
a farm more risky Endeavor for women or
has been ancestrally for sure they may
get pregnant they may have to be stuck
with the child have to breastfeed that
child infant mortality with massive
throughout our ancestral history it's a
huge success story of recent decades how
much we've improved that but it was a
risky endeavor the minimum parental
investment of a man is one successful
sex act which I'm reliably told can be
accomplished in a number of seconds but
uh you know so it's a massive different
ball game and where you have massive
biological differences between the Sexes
we should expect some psychological
differences underpinning them and we do
find that you find men have a massive
greater desire for sexual variety and
sexual frequency
um my supervisor calls that the most
boring replication in all of psychology
now because it's just one of the biggest
effect sizes so to put that into
perspective
the effect size of the difference
between men and women in terms of desire
for sexual variety is about as big as a
as big in magnitude as the sex
difference in upper body strengths
between men and women so that's a huge
psychological effect and in Psychology
if we have an effect size that's small
to medium we're happy with that we'll
say okay we'll take that as a
psychological finding so the sex
psychology differences being so huge so
robust repeatedly replicated over and
over again we just did it actually the
other week again uh yeah it's just a a
stark phenomenon but it makes sense in
the light of evolution when you think of
the different selection pressures that
would have shaped that psychology to
underpin the biological differences okay
so if culture is Downstream of that
biology and all those things you just
said are true
um how do we end up with I think it's 83
percent of all historically studied
societies have been polygamous
um is that what you just told us would
that have predicted that finding yeah so
you see a large amount of societies
being preferentially meaning one man
with multiple wives now even within
those societies most mate trips would
have been monogamous
um but it makes sense because a woman
can only benefit so much she can't
benefit that much from having multiple
husbands she can only get pregnant so
many times uh once it wouldn't be more
resources like if I can get multiple
guys like word perhaps yeah but it's a
harder to kind of control those men but
men can really benefit from multiple
wives uh so they really go to town and
you see whenever a man has this uh Power
so Genghis Khan is the ultimate example
so the most amount of Offspring born to
one woman is 69 to just Russian peasants
startling right
seems impossible but it seems nothing
compared to someone like Genghis Khan
where it's estimated that one in 12
people are related to Genghis Khan
because they've desired so many
offspring yeah you have a similar effect
in Ireland with King Nile of the nine
hostages he apparently had so many
concubines that all of us in Ireland are
related to him somewhere apparently he's
a very very handsome dude we're all kind
of related to him in some way but yeah
so there's very few polyandrous
um Societies in the world that would be
multiple males right single wife and
where you find those are predictable
areas too of really really harsh
environments so in the high mountains in
Nepal and the way that works is a family
might say that they have two or three
brothers and instead of each brother
finding a wife of their own and dividing
up the Farmland which is quite limited
amongst three different families they
would say hey let's have fewer families
some same land all live together and two
brothers
invariably it's two brothers to promote
genetic relatedness and more peace there
really fast before you move on that
seems insane when you talk about men
want more sex than women and just that
alone a woman having to please two men
that both one already wants more sex
than she wants yeah sounds like a recipe
for disaster disaster yeah well polygeny
is no picnic either so I'll tell a funny
story about the Anthropologist uh Helen
Fisher she was walking along and I
always forget which tribe it was with
the himba maybe but with this polygenous
um farmer and he had currently had three
wives and she was walking with him and
she said in an Ideal World how many
wives would you want and he stopped and
he thought
and he leaned in and said none
he would like none because apparently in
these poligenous marriages the Sister
Wives poison each other's children
they're constantly fighting it's no
picnic so not easy but yeah our
ancestral history of polygyny is very
interesting and that got really really
Bleak uh about 8 000 years ago where
it's estimated that at that time
17 women reproduced for every one man
and what's thought to have happened
there oh yeah really like if you look at
the graphs and maybe you can put them on
screen but you see an absolute nosedive
for male um effective population so men
just so many men dying before getting to
reproduce so let me say this another way
for uh one guy was getting 17 women
pregnant on average right then guys were
getting zero our our men were dying
before getting a chance to reproduce yes
so uh remember this is a time of a lot
of mortality so a lot of money wouldn't
it have to be what I said is true one
guy on average was getting 17 yes
different women pregnant yes and what
happened or what is postulated to
happened is that this coincides with the
onset of Agriculture which for the very
first time allowed the most high status
male in a society to stockpile resources
to such a degree that it created such
massive inner quality that it was better
to be the fourth or fifth wife of the
17th I want to perhaps either I'm
misunderstanding this or you're hedging
against something that is just
mathematically true is what I'm saying
accurate yes and the other theory is
that it's coincided with either uh
agriculture or Chieftains uh where you
had this really really high status guide
now what happened in response to that is
the cultural norm of monogamy evolved
and cultures that practice monogamy as a
cultural norm created a more egalitarian
distribution of mates it meant that even
the most high status man could only have
he couldn't monopolize the mates and
this gave your kind of disgruntled young
men your in cells in a society a
fighting chance and rather than being
focused on causing trouble
out there status seeking trying to find
mates competing with each other they
were focused on their family unit and
then like you said moving beyond the
family units to their society and those
cultures flourished so you and you do
see that in the ethnographic record that
cultures that practice monogamy began to
flourish and certainly Peterson gets in
trouble for this because he says oh
socially enforced monogamy but that's a
well-established finding in the
literature that that calls cultures to
flourish okay so two questions one uh
how do we end up getting to monogamy so
is it societally they recognize this is
a problem is it is it top down or bottom
up that was really my question and then
I actually don't I haven't paid close
enough attention why does Jordan get in
trouble for saying that like what do
they actually push back on okay so the
first question is that yes in any
society where you have this Surplus
population of unpartnered young men
you're in cells it's called young male
syndrome and they cause a lot of trouble
and cultures throughout history had all
sorts of cultural institutions to try
and deal with Surplus population before
even monogamy took hold as a like a
cultural norm you might send your
Surplus population of young men often
exploring Adventures you might send them
off raiding War because you just want to
kill them off well you want not
necessarily kill them off you might find
something more useful to do with them if
they're exploring they could actually
find something useful or if they're
raiding other Villages as Vikings or
Warriors it's more useful to you than
them just dying but yeah primarily it's
better than them causing trouble at home
so I mean look I'm definitely leading
the witness because I know the punchline
to this this joke but
um when you're sending what what is the
reason that people go to war yeah so the
main reason throughout our ancestral
history is to get mates to get brides
and uh there's the yanamamo tribe in I
think Bolivia and Venezuela and
there is a anthropologist called
Napoleon shagnon and he was studying
them and they got into a conversation
and he asked system why do you go to war
and they all said to get mates to get
brides and they asked the same question
in return what does your civilization
what does your Society go to war for and
he said things like democracy freedom
and they all just laughed their head off
at them they couldn't believe that
people would go to war for such a reason
so there's two reasons to gain Brides
like that so you're unmarried young men
would go to war for that reason are also
just out of a kind of a like a an arms
race of we can't be seen to be seen as
weak if we don't go to war with the
others they might think we're easy
pickings and they'll come to war with us
and they probably would so it's kind of
this constant tension and but those are
the two main drives
yeah so that that is by far the most
horrifying reality I think that we have
to face which is that over evolution
uh you start some person in fact gosh
I'd be interested to hear what your
thoughts are over what period of
evolution because if this is only the
last like 8 000 years or whatever
um that's pretty short time period so
would that be evolved anyway in your
answer please hit me with that but the
real question being that we have to face
that at least for the last eight ish
Thousand Years the number one reason
that people went to war was to steal
women which is I mean that's that's
rough yeah to look at and it's still
used as a motivation for Modern War like
even Jihad they will motivate young men
that's the precise demographic they want
is young unpartnered men and what do
they promise them 72 virgins in the
afterlife even are the promise of brides
in this life uh for sure even then at a
more micro level with gang culture a lot
of young men probably get into a gang
with the opportunity to get some status
and get a girl you know they don't have
many options so it's still a very big
motivating factor
um for what for men but one of the kind
of the white pill about it is that it
was this cultural device for occupying
your Surplus population of young men
and we also had the monastery more
peaceful kind of way to occupy them
things like that but we've run out of
those devices really war and uh you know
the monastery and things aren't the same
cultural institutions they once were but
we do have the internet and that seems
to be what's uh pacifying modern young
men from being out causing young male
syndrome problems uh they seem to be
spending their time in front of screens
and video games or online and there's a
lot of problems with the online
hostility that incels engage in or that
but you know the other alternative might
be worth if they weren't uh being
occupied in those Virtual Worlds they
might actually be causing more trouble
yeah
that is uh it's again standing at the
precipice a very Bleak picture of how we
end up walking backwards so to
understand how we end up extracting
ourselves from this problem I need to
understand why Jordan Peterson is
attacked for talking about culturally
enforced monogamy if it is the thing
that helps stabilize a society
what are people actually pushing back
like what are the words they say to him
yeah so he wrote a really good essay in
response to this to his criticism where
he cites a lot of the literature where
culturally enforced monogamy or socially
enforced monogamy is absolutely a common
uh reference people saying you're
enslaving women like what what is the
actual criticism so typical with Jordan
Peterson kind of critique it gets
hyperbolic the most extreme version of
what he's saying no sense of charitable
interpretation at all and they're kind
of suggesting yes that he's saying we
need to you know really punitively
enforce and the word and forth is doing
a lot of heavy lifting there what he's
referring to is just a cultural norm and
we absolutely have had and still have a
strong cultural norm for monogamy you
can only book a hotel room as a couple
you can't book as a truffles now we live
in a strongly culturally enforced
monogamy it's absolutely the main
cultural script currently and have been
certainly for the past number of
centuries so he's saying an
uncontroversial thing but just people
are completely unchargeable as we've
seen many cases with Jordan Peterson
okay let me see if I can construct the
argument so from a steel man perspective
I'm not trying to give a cheap version
of this
um we have fought very long and hard as
women I assume this is the perspective
it's coming from we've fought very long
and hard as women to come out from under
the Yoke of men
and if you're trying to put this
culturally enforced monogamy back on us
you're saying that we have to be tied
again to men like you're coming up with
another reason like before it was I
couldn't control my reproduction and I
couldn't get a job and so I finally
fight back against all of that and now
you're coming back with okay well if we
couldn't do it because it was impossible
to survive without a husband now I'm
gonna repress you culturally and just
make it the norm that you're stuck to
one one guy yeah that's absolutely the
steel man version of the argument and
fair enough if you want to say that but
it's this idea that a kind of free reign
libertarian sexual Marketplace would
return to this kind of effective
polygyny and that might not be any
picnic for women either because recent
Studies have shown that one in three UK
men would be open to a polygenous mate
chip but guess what women are not so
keen on it they don't really want this
Arrangement so it on the one hand it
sounds like monogamy is a cultural
device to curtail women's sexual freedom
but you could look at it that it
actually is a way to curtail the most
high status males sexual
monopolizing and so you know it's uh
yeah you can't just look at it in
one-dimensional analysis but uh yeah
it's a
that polygeny was no picnic for anyone
involved and this idea that monogamy is
just Why isn't it dope for the high
status males like I get so I'm with your
farmer yeah in that
um I love my wife and you can't imagine
how much and even if she was just like
that would hurt my feelings I wouldn't
do it for that reason alone but the
reality is bro the thought of having
another one of my wife like because that
you get pulled in a direction which I
think is amazing I got a whole diatribe
about how important I think it is that
you and your spouse shape each other but
the thought of being pulled in multiple
directions because there are times where
my wife believes I should be doing XYZ
thing to stand up for her honor whatever
and I'm like but you're wrong like you
are acting like this is nuts I don't
think you should be acting like that and
so if I had two women pulling or three
oh my God but if your gang is Khan and
it's just like look I have a wife I
don't know just making this up I have a
wife and then I have 8 000 concubines my
wife is cool if I go sleep with any of
them I have no emotional obligation you
don't get to tell me I need to stand up
for this out of the other uh and like
that
horrible for the 18 000 women I
understand that but what I'm trying to
figure out if you're a sociopath and
you're that guy why is that bad for you
I don't even think it needs to be a
sociopath I mean if we're we're doing a
cross-sex mind reading study now uh
where we're looking at men's and women's
desired number of sex partners at
various points throughout their lifetime
over the next month over the next year
six months 30 years the whole lifetime
and some of the men their desires are
just crazy high they're all saying like
a hundred Partners a month some of them
boot them out of the study they're too
high and even remember sometimes if it's
ridiculous
or maybe kidding or Messing or it's just
a really like you have Wilt Chamberlain
ten thousand women in his life uh
running the math I'm like bro when do
you eat this is the point I was making
so you mentioned that oh these
sociopathic men I don't necessarily even
think it needs to be the sociopathic men
like look at any man that finds himself
in a position where he can Mick Jagger
Annie top level rock star will kind of
act on that desire for sexual variety if
that's socially sanctioned so you need a
socially sanctioned Norm or a cultural
norm to kind of buffer against that
being the the a fine thing to do you
know it's not just a curtailing women's
Freedom it's actually as much curtailing
High status men's freedom
interesting okay so I'm definitely not a
Libertarian but
um this this is where things get tricky
for me because I don't want to see
people hemmed in I don't want to see
people told that they can or can't do it
uh the tragedy of the commons is real
people are going to if they know
somebody's gonna go take that resource
they're gonna take it uh it just it is
what it is you're not going to get
around that so my question becomes
um
it seems like wherever we end up as a
society we end up because it is human
nature married to that contextual moment
and you either have to change human
nature or the context
nothing else will work and that's why
you're going to get into very weird
moments because as the context becomes
novel and it disrupts the fitness of our
evolutionary strategies now that we are
going to do what evolution has
programmed us to do period end of story
and so as you create a weird context
you're going to get weird ass results
yeah that's I think you're exactly right
and that's where I focus so much of my
time thinking about evolutionary
mismatch is this idea that our modern
world just looks radically different
from the world in response to which our
psychology evolved and yeah that's the
primary mission is to understand how
that what's happening with that
interaction how does our evolved
psychology for mating work in an online
setting evolutionary novel
um but yeah you're not going to change
human nature we're rapidly changing
cultures uh faster than we can keep up
and it's just the best we can do is try
and keep up and understand uh never mind
figure out what the best way to
integrate the and to live our life using
it but yeah certainly denying our
evolved nature is going to get us
nowhere okay so let's talk about some of
the mismatch uh I'm very grateful that I
dodged the Tinder bullet um because I
would have used the life out of that
yeah uh and when I was in my early 20s
while I was very
um I I am a big believer in love but
when I met my wife I didn't think I was
going to ever get married I was very
much on the train of like cool let's
have a lot of short-term Partners now
that I understand women I understand the
game I know how to get laid I want to
get laid as much as I can yes bad news
is I'm really bad at not catching feels
when I meet somebody extraordinary uh
and so Phil end up falling head over
heels but
when you look at the graph that shows
sexlessness and I know that that maybe
that's on the reverse and it seems like
something interesting is happening there
and I'm not sure I fully understand even
though we talked about at the beginning
but anyway on on the graph I think this
same thing leading up to 2018 and then I
need to update my data but you can see
where Tinder hits and then sexlessness
goes up because I'm guessing we're
getting into the top percentage of men
now monopolize and so you get a huge
number of guys that are having no sex
and a small number of guys are having a
ton of sex and
that feels like a mismatch to me yeah um
one I'd love to get you take on that but
are there others yeah certainly and like
that could be seen as mismatch or almost
a return to this effective polygyny so
I've talked earlier about how we have
this ancestral history of uh exactly
that that polygyny and if you're to look
at that data of the top 20 and the top
five percent of men really having a lot
of sexual partners but a lot of other
men appearing to be disenfranchised that
does look like an effective polygyny
um so it could be a return rather than a
mismatch but yeah it's facilitated by
the online dating
uh other aspects of mismatch huge one is
the control over our birth control the
pill is probably the most Paradigm
shifting technology
for amazing psychology or uh to impact
our mating how's that not only good
because if we think back to those
statistics about women the involuntary
childless women eighty percent of
childless women were involuntarily so
that's a massively High number so what
must be happening for a lot of them and
I'd refer your viewers to the
documentary called birth Gap by Stephen
Shaw it's fantastic it explores the
population crisis and he talks to women
who report over and over again that they
just simply left it too late to find a
partner and when you talk about this
idea of women leaving it too late you're
not just talking about their fertility
their biological fertility it just you
don't find a partner find a partner
you're happy with convince them to marry
you it doesn't all wrap itself up in a
neat little bow in a handful of years if
you start trying only at the age of 30.
it's like a really really squeezed time
window that you're imposing on yourself
so that's um for many of those women I
would wager it's inadvertent you know
they didn't see it panning out that way
and they just left it too late or
couldn't find the right partner so
that's evolutionary novel dating apps
are a huge one they expose us to more
potential mates in a lifetime or in a
few minutes than we would be exposed to
in a lifetime throughout our ancestral
history now the way that works in so
many different ways one could be
romantic rejection so I'm asked all the
time I research in cells and one thing
people say to me all the time is why do
they care about the rejection so much
why not just go on there's plenty more
fish in the sea and Ultra rationalist
logical person could say yes that's
right there are plenty of more fish in
the sea just move on
but if you think about what rejection
meant for most of our ancestral history
it was really costly because there was
only a couple of dozen potential mates
that you might meet in your lifetime
they all kind of knew each other so if
they saw you getting rejected your
reputation takes a spike
so we're you know we're designed to be
very anxious it's meant to be very
anxiety-inducing to engage in The Mating
Market because it going wrong could be
very costly
so if we also think about dating apps
and even just in terms of big cities and
University settings exposing us to so
many potential mates messes with our
commitment devices so why would we be
inclined to commit to one partner when
we're getting the impression that there
is a limitless supply of other potential
mates around and we've got this fomo of
fear of missing out is there someone
better should I keep swiping
then you got on top of that just the
business model of the dating apps is to
designed to keep you in the dating room
in the swiping room to keep you single
why would their business model be
anything else you know it's gnarly and
they they talk about oh design to be
deleted but you know if you really think
about this they're they want swipers
they want people
playing the dating game and the kind of
even transparently move to this some of
their advertisement campaigns are like
it's great to be single you know single
and swiping that's good for them you
know
that one I had not thought of I should
have that's very self-evident as you get
into it
um
okay so we have these incredible
mismatches
um
how do we like when you think about so
this is something I have to think about
a lot so we're creating a metaverse I
hate calling it that but that'll get you
close enough uh and so I have to think
about this a lot like this people are
now going to be able to build their
identity
um their detached from The Real World
they are
um
able to get some of the faux cues and
things that they might have to deal with
in uh sorry they're getting faux cues of
Fitness that if they were in the real
world they would not be able to mistake
it so one of those would be like
pornography
um where you're getting some sort of
subconscious cue that everything is well
um where does porn sit in your stack of
problems yeah that's one idea that it
could be this kind of pseudo
relationships in terms of porn it's
there's two ways of looking at it so the
people who use porn most most men are
quite sexually active men who also
simultaneously want to go out mate
seeking to
um but we have data on that yeah they're
still they're still it doesn't seem to
interfere with their mate seeking now
I'm a bit less optimistic about virtual
reality and as that gets more
sophisticated and more embodied
cognition of will people and it becomes
more costly to engage in the real mating
Market will men just increasingly
Retreat so it doesn't appear to be that
it's just pornography per se because
that gets tied up with oh well very
sexually unrestricted men use most
pornography but the idea of retreating
into Virtual Worlds virtual status games
like video games and just online on the
internet instead of mate seeking that
seems to have a bit more attraction I
think but just pornography on its own
gets a bit caught up with yes but the
problem is that also the most sexually
active sexually people with the highest
sexual desires use a lot of porn too so
it kind of loses that dulling effect
does that make sense it does I'm not yet
clear if people that are very
unsuccessful are they also using porn
yeah I would say that they are as like a
coping kind of mechanism
um but it's not clear to me that just
stopping porn in isolation would
encourage the mate seeking that's uh
clear that is surprising to me so I
don't know if there's data or if that's
your hunch but so what you're putting
forth is that
um
if I'm not masturbating that doesn't
mean so I I'm having pent-up desire that
doesn't mean that I will go seek a
natural human relationship to sort that
out yeah and that's the surprising thing
we're seeing this this data on these
data on men just not being motivated to
seek mates and it just could be what the
[ __ ] yeah right you're tipping over I'm
realizing now I had a base assumption
that was uh these guys are all
masturbating furiously and that is what
placates them enough to not go out
um
are you saying that's not true so these
guys have do they have low so okay let's
get into in cells do in cells have as
just an extreme sort of end of this just
so we can cut to the chase uh for people
that don't know Intel involuntary
celibate they want a partner but they
believe rightly or wrongly that they
cannot get a partner uh one of my pieces
of advice to them would be stop
masturbating because that's gonna apply
massive amounts of biological pressure
on you to go out yeah so now I need you
to help me understand how that is not
true infos are a tricky one uh when we
measured them on porn use against our
non-intel single men it was kind of
virtually the same so it's very hard to
kind of find control groups for porn
users because everyone every young man
is pretty much using porn it's hard to
do those studies but I just wrote a
recent article um for aporia called the
Allure of inseldom why in cells resist
essential
and a lot of intels
um you might it's intuitive to think oh
yes they really want a mate they really
want a partner and they do anything to
go out and get it but that's not the
case and all sorts of people talk about
how incels are simply aiming too high
they need to lower their standards but
my idea is they're actually not aiming
at all and there's actually unique
appeal to the incel identity that gets
them hunkered down into that life and
that victimhood mentality rather than
engaging with the anxiety-inducing
mating market so to be romantically
successful you need to go through a lot
of anxiety you need to go out put
yourself out there get rejected a lot uh
get your heart broken all those things
are there any data on people taking
anti-anxiety medication and and thinking
success yeah I'm not familiar there but
we have data certainly that anxiety
levels are very very high among in cells
and increasingly just among young men
and women
more anxiety everyone we look
um but yeah and that could be feeding
into this reluctance to engage in The
Mating Market which is like we say one
of the most anxiety-inducing things you
can do it's a it's scary to put yourself
out there in the most success successful
uh romantic people are ones who are able
to take rejection to go through it and
you could say to incels I promise you
it's worth it it's worth it to go
through the other side go through all
the rejection but that has become less
obvious to me uh for incels as as I've
come on so it's not obvious that going
through the rejection will yield
anything or that getting in a
relationship is worth the anxiety I
think I think it's worth it me
personally but it's it's not very easy
for me to say to every incel who has
faced just a lifetime of being rejected
to say yes it's worth it keep rolling
the dice keep rolling the dice it might
because they may actually not end up
with a partner
are the costs may come it may be so
anxiety inducing to them that it's who
am I to to say push yourself through
that pain you know interesting I don't
have the neuron for who am I to say
right my audience either finds very
entertaining or I'm sure in the comments
is shut the [ __ ] up
um but unfortunately I don't have that
neuron so uh who am I to say yeah I I am
going to say this because I really want
to see people thrive and I am a big
believer that the only difference
between me and the level of success that
I've had whether it's in my
relationships or money no no is that
um I really believe that you can get
better and that at anything and that on
the other side of in in the dating
Market is
um you nothing will ever give you more
not money not success not accolades
nothing then sharing your life with
somebody that that you you're able to
have a a very high thriving relationship
with
because yes you could be in a marriage
with somebody and sharing your life with
somebody you you hate yeah and that
would be a nightmare I use I literally
used to have a recurring nightmare about
being in a Loveless marriage so I get
that side so I I want to
um the the thing that I'm grappling with
and what you're saying is that if I knew
that they could have a relationship on
the other side of that I'd be like bro
it is worth it yeah like just from a
biological standpoint I'm guaranteeing
you that it's worth it because the the
pair bonding
um and look there are realities to be
faced about how many receptors do you
have for vasopressin and oxytocin if you
don't have enough then you just you may
not experience the kind of thing that I
experienced but if you have a sufficient
level of that which I would just assume
most people do nothing will give you
more ever than being somebody's number
one and sharing that life together yeah
what scares me is that some of these
guys may be for real for real of such
low mate value that you aren't going to
end up with somebody on the other side
of that and so if you're saying that
that there are some people that don't
meet what I'll call minimum requirements
you this really does suck and you you
are going to have to find another path
to fulfillment
but my thing is I think most people Miss
yes understand where they fall on that
Spectrum yeah I agree with what you're
saying so let me rephrase what I I was
trying to say is yes I think it's worth
it and I think what's on the other side
is flourishment or flourishing and
fulfillment uh that is worth all that
pain but I guess what I was trying to
say when I said oh who am I to say is
that I'm trying to understand the
mindset of why that wouldn't be obvious
to someone why that wouldn't be obvious
to an insult and I began to realize that
in cells get a lot out of their social
identity of the victimhood identity the
common enemy of women old thirk and Chad
socks they get a rich lexicon of
humorous trolling terminology they have
their sense of fraternity with their
other fellow incels a black and white
rubric through which to view the world
they actually get a lot out of that
identity that I'm beginning to see
um compared with engaging in an
anxiety-inducing mating Market that like
you said may not actually yield some
positive results at all we think it
would and it's intuitive to think oh
yeah just roll the dice enough times and
just from a sheer number saying that's
probably right but it may be so costly
to do that uh that it they just say it's
not worth all that pain to go through
um what's another Bleak idea is that
encouraging incels to re-engage with the
mating Market the socially anxious young
men who aren't very experienced with
women very insecure
it it we might be careful what we wish
for if they find girlfriends because
people always talk about how dangerous
these sexless young men are these in
cells are so dangerous but what is
really dangerous is an insecure jealous
boyfriend that they engage in way more
intimate partner violence and things
like that than any sexless young man
so that's a bit of a dark kind of Truth
to reckon with as well is that this
might be no picnic and like we talked
about earlier they're engaging with the
mating Market it's a baptism of fire
there's no training ground for it
there's just go out there into the world
make a bunch of mistakes learn on your
feet
um so yeah so I guess what I was trying
to say is rather than who am I to say is
it worth it is that I can understand why
an individual Intel might elect to
hunker down into victimhood identity and
online worlds rather than engaging with
the mating Market they don't have much
faith in
that's what I mean I think you can
reboot your life your health even your
career anything you want all you need is
discipline I can teach you the tactics
that I learned while growing a billion
dollar business that will allow you to
see your goals through whether you want
better health stronger relationships a
more successful career any of that is
possible with the mindset and business
programs and impact Theory University
join the thousands of students who have
already accomplished amazing things tap
now for a free trial and get started
today
whoa that was dark I know dark uh I love
it because I think people have to face
whatever is true okay so that brought up
a couple things for me one of them is
frame of reference so I am obsessed with
the idea of frame of reference so we all
believe certain things about ourselves
and the world and that is your frame of
reference now anybody that thinks that
their frame of reference just reflects
objective reality that person is a
danger to themselves and others and I
really really really want people to
distrust their emotions and I mean that
was so much aggression man I want people
to distrust their emotions nobody
distrusts their emotions more than me
and so I'm saying that my success is
because I distrust my emotions so I
learned a long time ago that I was only
going to allow myself to do and believe
that which moved me towards my goals and
so if my goal is to find love Etc et
cetera then I can't allow myself to
believe that I'm unlovable that I'm so
low on the totem pole nobody could ever
find me
um attractive worth being partnered with
while I believe that we're having a
biological experience while I believe
that you know uh mate preferences and
all that stuff like there there's a lot
of constraints but I think there's also
some malleability and I would be looking
at what is everything that I can tweak
what are the things that I can max out
on what are the things I have to let go
of uh and I mean look if if I I am
perfectly happy and I've seen this
countless times where you get a really
short guy with a super tall woman word
I'm all for it I'm just saying like I
want people to distrust that you don't
think that you could be of value there
are ways that you could look at
different pools of people that are going
to find you attractive yeah uh and I
think that that would be a wise way to
approach that problem but you have to
pierce people's frame of reference if
they are just convinced that they are
unlovable then
that's the problem the problem isn't uh
that you can't actually find somebody
the problem is you believe you can't
find somebody and now you're not doing
any of the things you would need to do
to get on the other side of that yeah
you touched on a lot of areas of Intel
typical psychology there actually and so
one is that they have a very strong
external locus of control they don't
believe they can affect change in their
own life at all it's just things happen
to them the it's outside forces whether
it's dating apps feminism whatever it is
I'm too short external world has made it
so that they're going to be a victim so
that's one thing so trying to when we
think about maybe any interventions
cultivating that internal locus of
control that there's something you could
do to affect change in your own life and
that's very important but in cells lack
that a lot
they do have a terminology for what you
described of like that self-development
of maxing everything is looks maxing uh
what is a Jester maxing to be very funny
everything Mac thing right so that's one
kind of uh way some infos look at it and
they have a very Bleak terminology for
the levels at which you can be an Intel
so you can be at the stage of Hope
cope or rope so hope describes feeling
like oh there's still hope out there I
could maybe engage in looks maxing I'll
go to the gym I'll become self-developed
I'll read a lot of books hoping some of
them will say it's a delusional hope but
to be romantically successful you need
to be some have some level of
self-delusion too yes so we talk about
it in in terms of mating intelligence
which describes mating relevant other
deception but also mating relevant to
self-deception to not pay attention to
the rejection so much and to just keep
looking out for the green flags I don't
believe that which music towards your
goals right so that's a important part
of mating intelligence
so that's hope that incels might engage
in the the looks maxing then there's
cope which is uh you know problematic
coping mechanisms like drug taking
pornography use drugs and we have
evidence selling cells engage in a lot
of problematic
um coping mechanisms and then finally
the most Bleak of all is the idea of
rope which is suicide as an outlet and
some of our data shows that suicidality
is just so high among incels that it's
really it's really Bleak to look at that
data because
I'm asked all the time about incels from
an extremism point of view and it's my
opinion following the data that extreme
in seldom more typically looks like
suicide rather than an act of violence
towards others and even the acts of
violence toward others have been suicide
by cop or something like this it's an
act of self-destruction uh so yeah so
incels do have this external locus of
control they don't believe they can
affect change they encourage each other
to lay down and rot uh Jesus yeah it's
pretty bleak Gallows humor type language
they have so lay down and rot and take
the black pill which I'm hurt I'm sure
you've heard of the black pill yes it's
that derivative of the red pill from the
movie The Matrix and describes a
particularly Bleak Truth for incels to
swallow the belief that there's nothing
they could do to affect change
um so yeah so that's where they're kind
of stuck and even in my interviews with
incels when I talk to them the last
question I ask in every interview is how
would you no longer how would you know
you're no longer an insult and they talk
about it invariably they all talk about
it like as if it's like alcoholism that
they could relapse and I say would you
how would you know you're no longer an
insult would you need to get one
girlfriend two girlfriends have sex one
time what would have to happen and they
talk about it like oh no matter what you
could it could go back you could go back
and you know you get the sense that
there's almost nothing is ever good
enough for them in some to some degree
so they talk about having missed out
irretrievably on developmental
experiences like young romantic love
early 20s or late teens there was
something so pure about that type of
romantic love that I'll never have
access to again or women once they've
had Chads they're always going to want
him in a way that they'll never want you
even if you do get to marry her and it's
like at what stage does it become
what will ever be good enough for you
one example I have is
yeah I put up some statistic about how
difficult short men find it on the
mating market and tons of data out there
on that unfortunately
um but one guy waded into my Twitter
comments and said I'm five foot two I'm
married with kids and a load of incels
just piled into the comment saying oh
your wife is probably cocking you and
using you for your resources and it's
like this guy is married with kids and
that's not good enough for you you know
it's like it's just hunkered down into
this victim mentality all the time all
the way down yeah frame of reference
exactly frame of reference when you
can't Pierce somebody's frame of
reference like you're really in trouble
uh and but I think people struggle to
understand incel's frame of reference of
really seeing the world and believing
that they never stand a chance that's
the genuine belief of many insults it's
not just this LARP and uh obviously they
hunker down into that victimhood
identity but they do you know if you and
all your social networks were
reinforcing this belief and you were
it's what we call self-verification
Theory so whether you see a cat or a
lion in the mirror you tend to want to
surround yourself with people who see
the same thing it's actually frightening
and more disturbing to have someone not
see you the way you see yourself so in
cells actually prefer if you say to them
yes you really would struggle on the
mating market and the worst thing you
could say is oh you could do better come
on you could develop yourself you could
find a girlfriend surely there's still
hope they don't like that at all they
because the little bit of Hope is more
scary to them than uh no hope no hope
means you don't enough to try you never
stood a chance it was over it's not your
fault it's someone else's fault you're
just lost out on the genetic Lottery
whatever it is but at least the game is
over you don't have to go through the
anxiety of trying and that's why they're
so resistant to other incels ascending
so ascending is the word they have for
when an insult is no longer an incel and
they're very resistant to this idea
because it just dispels their idea that
they never stood a chance so they'll
even kick an inside out of the forums if
he's trying to find romantic success or
they'll call him a fake cell if he does
so it's this coalitional psychology of
forming a group that's very valuable
we're social creatures that is a very
valuable evolved need too
um you know there there would have to
trade all of that coalitional psychology
off
in order to take their place in The
Mating Market that like you said they're
not confident they're going to do well
in they're exhausted with it they're
anxiety induced with it and it's
expensive and they're invariably very
poor they're highly likely to be neat
not engaged in employment and education
or training and you know if we talked
about the cost of dating if they don't
have the money you know and I don't want
to use the term who am I to insist but
uh you can understand how they would
come to conclusion I'm out I'm no longer
trying and it must be that they're no
longer trying because it's objectively
impossible to prove someone is inside
like incapable of forming romantic
relationships that's objectively
impossible to prove but so that means it
must be embraced the identity must be
embraced by the individual but uh having
researched it I can kind of I have a bit
more sympathy or kind of understanding
of how they would arrive at that
conclusion and the incentive structure
just stay in that identity rather than
compete in The Mating Market
yeah identity that that is the other
thing that this brings up for me it
again just you can't allow yourself if
you want to flourish remember my North
Star if you want to flourish if you want
to find fulfillment you cannot allow
yourself to take on an identity that
holds you back slows you down whatever
yes
um even if you're gonna remove yourself
from the dating market and say you know
that's not a game that I want to play
like even that I would rather see people
go you know what like uh I don't find it
worth the the anxiety and so not that I
couldn't do it it's that the amount of
anxiety that I would have to face given
my genetic hand whatever I'm not
interested in playing it okay cool like
at least now you're closer to the truth
meaning when I think about truth I think
we are all prediction machines and the
closer you get to the truth the more
able you are to accurately predict the
outcome of your behaviors so if you're
saying look it is true for me to go
confront that it's a ton of anxiety for
me to try to get better you know I'm
five two uh my IQs and 89 whatever like
you've got all these things working
against you all right the amount of
anxiety that I would have to go through
in order to maximize things that are
going to matter it's just far too
exhausting okay at least you're not
adding a layer of falsity to all of this
um
cool we're closer now you can find a
path to fulfillment in a different
direction like hey I'm taking that one
off the table because the anxiety is too
high but I know I need to find a path to
fulfillment so what what is that going
to be what infos might say in response
to that is that's exactly what I'm doing
and I'm just uh commiserating with my
fellow incels about that predicament and
why shouldn't I do that don't we all
deserve social allies you know and so
the loneliness is off the charts too and
it's interesting when we looked at our
data compared I don't want that to be a
rhetorical question so why why should I
not do that my first question then is
going to be what is your North Star if
your North Star is to have other people
reinforce your negative view of yourself
then you're doing the right thing yes
but I need to hear you say my North Star
is not human flourishing it is not
fulfillment it is not having it
contributed anything meaningfully to
this world it is I want to optimize for
other people telling me that I'm as busy
big of a loser as I think I am cool now
I'm done there's nothing okay cool you
you've been honest about what your North
Star is I don't think it's
neurochemically advantageous but you're
not lying to yourself so I don't have
any like there's nowhere for me to go
Okay cool so you've opted I think that
is exactly what a lot of incels would
say is that's where I'm at that's all I
think I can get out of life now they've
started bullshitting yeah the second
they say it's all I think I can get it's
like okay that's your problem if you're
being honest that that's what you're
optimizing for cool the second you
[ __ ] and say I I I'm like in this
small group of people that cannot get
better at anything that would lead to
fulfillment yeah I'm perfectly fine with
you taking off the table that I'm not
going to pursue mating which is
devastating full acknowledgment of how
devastating that is but I'm just saying
don't optimize if that really is off the
table let's say that you're horribly
scarred over uh 95 of your body and your
per your penis was burned off yeah cool
mating is out for you get it I'm not
even gonna waste time on that but I
would not spend time thinking to
yourself that you cannot optimize for
fulfillment you still don't need to
optimize for having people tell you all
day that it really is as bad as you
think don't optimize for that I get it
why because Tom Billy's Northstar is
human flourishing as far as I can tell
Evolution has given you the only recipe
that's ever going to matter which is
that you have to work really hard to
gain a set of skills that matter not
only to you but to the group cool now
mating is a rad way to be on that path
to matter and to fight and and do things
for this other this a much smaller
microcosm of your your significant other
and your kids but it's still the same
idea I'm contributing to this micro
group so you're gonna have to pick a
different micro group to go contribute
to I'm very sad that you didn't get the
most obvious one that nature gives us
which is the family microcosmith but it
didn't so anyway I'm just saying that
the second they say oh I couldn't
optimize for something else I can't get
better at anything false yeah yeah I
think I tend to personally kind of agree
with you but I'm glad to I hear you're
not demean how painful it is to to lose
out on feeling like you can even
participate in that mating Arena because
one thing that infuriates me when a lay
listener or someone who doesn't know
much about this topic at all starts
talking about incels and they say
something like why do they care so much
about mating and I'm like well that's
crazy because we're all the result of an
unbroken chain of ancestors who've
solved that problem for long enough to
reproduce it's a very important we build
billion dollar Industries around it in
the form of dating apps cosmetic surgery
it's big business it's what people care
about and it is the route to a lot of
human flourishing so it really bugs me
when people say why don't they just
simply care about other things and it's
like it's not that easy
um but yeah I think I tend to agree with
you and in our paper we talk about the
two roots to responding to inseldom so
you can engage with the mating Market
again and can do maybe interventions to
try and help in cells re-engage with the
mating Market but recognizing that that
not might that might not be the route
that's best for every incel at that
given time maybe eventually but as an
alternative to that
you have to direct them towards better
coping patterns or better forms of human
flourishing
um without the mating Market which is a
hard sell but not impossible like you
say you need to find a different North
Star or find a different vision for
human flourishing but um but yeah it
just bugs me when people kind of demean
and that psychic pain and it's like oh
yeah oh you can't get a mate why don't
you simply care about other things it's
like that's hard well so the great irony
is you're 100 correct about the just the
devastating reality that would be uh
this thing is off the table that
evolution is giving me a screaming
desire for uh and so I'm gonna have to
find a way to shut that off not shut it
off but I'm gonna have to find a way to
make other things matter more but I can
think of no tragedy greater than not
trying like and and this goes back to my
once once we developed this sort of
cynical self-awareness hope cope rope is
is already run in the opposite direction
like you even having that horrendously
over simplified thing it gives you a
cool linguistic thing to hold on to and
it's clever and it's funny in gallows
humor and all that I get it but like I
would personally like so
in my marriage we don't say the word
divorce we call it the d word and the
reason we do that is we just have to
reinforce in each other that that just
isn't an option it's not a path that we
take and so we take that off the table
and so we address issues if you go cool
I'll do hope I'll do cope I don't do
rope like rope is off the table for me
and so it's like okay once cope starts
slipping if rope isn't an option then
it's like what are you gonna do what's
the path around this my wife and I play
this game in our relationship and our
business everything no [ __ ] what
would it take
and when you start saying I am going to
find a path to this thing now I may not
be willing to do it but it puts you in a
solution oriented mindset uh
to that end I want to give you a
question I beg of you to ask this of of
everybody in your Intel study
would your emotional Agony be diminished
if you had an AI robot that felt like a
real person in every way could pass the
touring test meaning having a
conversation with them about the deepest
most intimate parts of your life is
indistinguishable from somebody else but
you knew that that robot was programmed
to preferentially find you attractive
even if you're burned to a crisp uh
penis got burned off whatever but that
robot just Loves You by programming are
you good with it or do you still need to
think of yourself as a loser
I think that what you described uh
would scratch one itch for in cells the
kind of the loneliness need the sexual
need potentially as well but it wouldn't
scratch the feeling like a loser itch
because there's no status afforded to
men who have the best
artificially intelligent girlfriend
there's no status afforded to that and
so it'll scratch one itch for in cells
but it won't scratch the other
um it reminds me of that movie Her have
you seen that one with the AI girlfriend
and it's just devastating to think but
that could be a dystopian kind of future
but it's devastating for what reason why
is her the movie for those that haven't
seen it maybe your answer will explain
uh but why is her deficiting because for
me it's only devastating for one reason
yeah and it just it reminds me a lot of
people say why can't incels just use sex
workers there's plenty of sex workers
out there but again it'll only scratch
that one itch it won't scratch the itch
of being sexually selected being
sexually selected means you're seen as
high status you how do you describe it
um you've done you've shown competence
in your Arena you've shown value you've
created something that you've been
chosen and achieving romantic success is
tied up with status for men in a loop
and that's just not going to be
um achievable by getting the best AI
girlfriend
that's interesting so being selected as
a proxy for I'm impressing other people
just in general that I'm high status
yeah there's an interesting I don't know
if you're familiar with Ayla on on
Twitter she's like this kind of uh
public intellectual runs these massive
surveys of like sex surveys with 50 000
Twitter respondents
um but she has this kind of pet Theory I
think it's Ayla I heard it from if it's
not I heard it somewhere else and that a
lot of men aren't don't crave having sex
with really attractive women all that
much but they love the status it kind of
affords them the actual sex they could
kind of go without they'd be happy
having sex with their looks much more
um but the actual status that comes with
being seen as having been able to
attract an attractive woman is so
seductive I think there's something to
that that is for me yeah not for me
because I'm super rich so like I could
in theory get very attractive women just
based on that status alone and man in my
narrow little piece of the universe I'm
also well known so it's like
recognizable to a narrow band of
humanity and very wealthy uh that is not
interesting to me
at all um
for insecurity reasons so it's like I
would much rather be with somebody I
think is in my sexual market value on a
lot of different dimensions including
age if I'm honest like the Leonardo
DiCaprio thing I'm like bro do you just
look way better naked than I do which I
doubt uh what the [ __ ] like I want to be
and my wife God bless her cotton socks
is definitely in better shape than I am
uh but there's it has a pretty narrow
band like I wouldn't let myself go
farther because then I would feel like
out of her League that would just I
would not like that feeling at all so
again not that doesn't resonate with me
not because I think I'm cool the exact
opposite I have insecurities around it
and just the thought of like being with
a 20 something no way no way like that's
crazy town even though like from a porn
perspective word but like from a reality
perspective no thanks yeah it's
interesting because it obviously comes
through quite strongly how much you
admire and love your wife but I'm
looking forward to hearing about how you
make that one sell tonight when you tell
her about it I'd rather not oh no no my
wife dude when I say that we have talked
about everything yeah my wife were in
her 20s that would not I thoroughly
enjoyed my wife in her 20s when I was in
my 20s too yeah uh but no I'm very glad
that we are both aging even though I'm
held to a different standard that's
still I don't know like I feel like
whatever that thing is that lets old
guys be with super young women be with I
get the find them attractive yeah I find
them attractive but be with triggers
that's a very mature way of looking at
it very refreshing to hear but uh yeah
my supervisor describes it as men are
cursed as they get older to be attracted
to women that are never going to desire
them yeah so it's like oh man when I
think about the most brutal this will be
interesting saying to if we have any
insults listening now but the
they say that the worst moment for a man
and this resonates with me is the moment
that a woman finds you harmless
um it's like oh God like I would rather
be intimidating than harmless like
interesting that's brutal yeah a brutal
black pill as the infos would say yeah
that that one is rough okay so you so
going back to her uh the reason that I
found that movie rough is that in the
end he gets rejected even by the AI
who's just like look humans are just too
boring uh we can all think it like so
much faster and talk to so many more
people at one time we're just gonna
peace out so that's why that's rough but
I when I think about Ai and look I I'm
paranoid I don't think AI is some Utopia
I don't think there are Utopias I think
there are only trade-offs but if I were
an incel I'd be like AI oh word sex or
robots word yeah and I would be
I would be at least like it doesn't
scratch all the itch yeah I hear you but
having some of the at scratch like look
my dog is not a child I'm aware of that
I think it's as cringe when people like
Post Yeah like
my wife does it I even think of myself
like my wife will refer to me in front
of our dog as Dad so look I buy into it
like I get it
um I just wouldn't post about it but uh
it does scratch part of that itch and it
it does it enough that I'm like this is
actually a part of my strategy yeah in
terms of not having kids
is having a pet and being like hey this
is a thing and also this is really
controversial I'm surprised at how
negatively people respond to this
I'm not necessarily proud of the
following statement okay but it's real
man it represents a real thought that I
have
when AI kids become a thing and you can
speed up their development because the
reason I don't want to have kids is I
can't fathom like 20 plus years my wife
becoming my number two or number three
or number four depending on how many
kids we have it's like uh I didn't
strike me as a good idea for my marriage
so but if I could have a kid where I'm
like the first two years I want to go by
over a weekend because this is a
non-biological entity I can speed up its
development as much as I want uh so for
a weekend we'll have a a zero to two
year old fine uh then I want the
terrible twos you know maybe we spend a
week with that just to feel like we
earned it right uh then three to seven
maybe I want to slow that down because
those are some pretty magical years
where they want to be around you they've
got a real personality uh and then the
teenage years oh God I can't even deal
with that so again we reduce the entire
Teenage Band to a week or two weeks or
you know however much suffering we want
to do uh and then when they hit you know
25 and they're like oh my parents aren't
as dumb as I thought we slow that back
down right so I could see that being a
part of my strategy if I'm really honest
uh especially if they're in learning
mode and so they really start to reflect
your values and stuff so you're like oh
my God like this is so cool to see my
ideas reflected like in a quote-unquote
living thing so anyway I I would man I
just cannot because of my frame of
reference I cannot adopt the lay down
and rot mentality and just feel like
there are a lot of paths to fulfillment
not necessarily getting laid Yeah so I
hear you about they're still not being
sexually selected yeah there are other
paths I like your kind of white pill uh
pushback against the dystopia that this
technological future might bring and
Chris Williamson brought me on to talk
about this very thing with him we talked
about this dystopian future of AI
girlfriends and things like that
and one white pill that we thought about
might be that incels or sexless young
men might use a very sophisticated
artificially intelligent girlfriend
yes they might Retreat from The Mating
Market altogether and you know this AI
girlfriend might leap out of The Uncanny
Valley and even surpass a flesh and
blood girlfriend but it wouldn't come
with the status so what they might do
instead is use this AI girlfriend as a
training ground I've said a few times on
the podcast now there's no training
ground for the mating Market except if
you actually have a virtual reality AI
uh artificially intelligent girlfriend
that you can practice on and improve
your prospect for the real world mating
Market that would come with status so
maybe then now the pushback I get on
that is people say oh well yeah people
don't use pornography to learn about how
to be good lovers in bed do they and
it's like no that's not true but this
isn't quite the same thing it's it's a
little bit different I like to think
but yeah the the future of I didn't even
think about the idea of artificially
intelligent kids and why that might be
preferable especially if you talk about
when they begin to mirror you and you
see yourself in them because all our
data show that parents invest more
heavily in kids that look and behave
like them like to a massive degree so
that would be the AI might be able to
parastatize uh that parenting mechanism
for a lot of people and there could be
advantages to it above and beyond the
investment in an actual Offspring yeah
new world yeah I get how this is a Brave
New World and probably dystopia
and it's super weird that humans Rush
towards it and if this were an AI
conversation I would I would lean into
that but for now
full caveat for all of the like
propensity for dystopia just setting
that aside for this conversation I do
find it
very interesting what will happen when
that comes online from from an Ever
everybody perspective for sure but
certainly from an Intel perspective like
because that the status problem that
you're talking about much like it was
considered just
so cringe to do online dating in the
beginning and now it's just like what 70
percent of people meet online first yeah
so it's like the fact that your
girlfriend is AI like it will be super
gross for 10 years or whatever and then
it will just be like wait you're dating
a real person that's so weird yeah again
I understand the dystopian elements but
it's like
when computers have human level
intelligence and there is only when you
cut into them from a surgical
perspective they're different but from
the outside like you don't notice they
will feel the same they'll find a way to
make them the same weight I love the
same intellect they'll effectively
program them to be human-like but you'll
be able to pick the traits that match
you and then adjust them as you go like
dude for instance if my wife could make
Minor Adjustments to me she would a
hundred percent like the fact that I it
drives me crazy when things are
inefficient so I will leave things out
because it's far more efficient for it
to be sitting out I know right where it
is right but it drives my wife crazy she
wants everything hidden so she would
adjust me tweak tweak if she could I'd
do the same to her like the stop hiding
things for the love of God and I know it
sounds funny but like that actually is a
source of real tension in our marriage
and has been for 22 years so it's like
yes I would make that go away as would
she and so you get into these people
would just start making tweaks until it
was awesome and here's one thing you
think you want to tweak all the friction
away and then you do that and you're
like actually I need a little friction
yeah and so you tweak the friction back
in and then you find look seven percent
friction 93 get along is perfect
and then it's awesome yeah yeah no I
tend to agree with you definitely agree
with you on the leaving things out for
easy access if they're hidden away I
forget that they're there I thought I
had the exact time fights with
girlfriends in my past for sure so I'm
with you on that one
um but yeah definitely this idea of but
humans have also this biophilia this
kind of innate love of the natural and
one example I'll use to illustrate that
is the resistance to artificial wombs
and to in vitro meat both of which are
kind of peculiar because
women in particular are resistant to the
idea of an artificial womb and that's
crazy to me when I think of how many
women uh lose their lives in childbirth
how dangerous how costly it is for women
to engage in natural childbirth they
should be the ones
banging the drum for artificial wounds
so emancipatory but they're not because
it strips them of some sort of essence
and I've ran the polls on my Twitter
actually and I'd love to see these
studies done in Greater depth but it was
women in particular that was very
resistant to this idea of artificial
wombs a completely safe uh technology
hypothetical technology
very peculiar to me just this biophilia
that you're in love with this natural so
maybe we'll put up more of a resistance
to it than we think the other one is in
vitro meat people find it kind of icky
to eat lab meat that's cultivated in a
Petri dish but they don't find it icky
to actually kill and eat an animal
remarkable just this you think either of
those will fall as they become more
prevalent I do I do think they'll fall
but with one or both I would say the in
vitro meat will fall faster I mean
people are even already running towards
like artificial meats and stuff like
that but there is some people who still
are initially when they came on the
market people were like would you really
eat fake meats and it's like yes I
personally have no pushback on that one
as long as they can figure out how you
get the micronutrients of like uh rich
soil into it because my feeling is that
will be non-trivial and that if we're
not but you the meat that you eat is a
product of what that meat ate even the
same is true of vegetables like it's
eating something from the soil and the
air presumably so it's like what is it
in taking and so we'd have to be
thoughtful about that but if we can
solve that problem the meat thing I
don't have a problem with but the the
womb thing that one I get like that one
feels like for ah this actually isn't
true this is interesting I'm peering
into my own soul right now I was going
to say that I would have a problem with
artificial insemination and then I
thought well wait a second do you would
I like if I knew I could pick like they
they show me up on a screen which by the
way this is going to happen they're
going to be able to show you this exact
sperm with this exact egg will yield
this exact child and so pick and they
give you like the option of 50 kids with
different uh height uh looks
intelligence like personality traits all
of it and I would do that in a heartbeat
embryo selection is just around the
corner for sure and but yeah and you
know you mentioned about the artificial
insemination like you know test tube
babies now they're completely considered
normal you know I remember at the time
the Catholic church had big problems
with them they won't ever sold they'll
be all Psychopathic and all this stuff
it's like wow what a ridiculous thing to
think they're obviously claimed to be
normal human beings
um will the same be said about
artificial womb babies down the line it
could be that we just embraced the
technology pretty without much friction
but it's that idea that it strips women
of this natural role I don't think I'm
going to get over the the womb one fast
this is obviously my bias is speaking
here but
when I think about that one
it does feel like because I I reacted
some kind of way when God would this
have been in the 90s when women started
going like oh man what do we need men
for like we can take artificial
insemination we don't need guys and I
was like oh like I don't like the way
that feels yeah and if there's an
artificial womb yeah
yeah it's who is it freeing women or is
it making them irrelevant making them
redundant it's a yeah but this is the
very evolutionary novel time we live in
while it's very emancipatory to free
ourselves of the Hostile forces of
nature it actually means we're not
relying on each other in the ways we
have for hundreds of thousands of years
it's a very strange time you know it's a
very strange time talk to me about how
we rely on each other because one thing
that I see happening in the dating
Market that makes me really sad and as
somebody who's just a huge fan of love
if you look at the other sex is your
adversary you are already in trouble yes
I'm glad to hear you say that because
that's my optimistic response to when I
see this kind of discourse culture of
very adversarial men versus women type
thing I get very annoyed at that because
we are each other's best ally but
ultimately I just laugh in the face of
it because all those concerted efforts
to get men and women to hate each other
are pushing up against
so many selection pressures throughout
our ancestral history that are causing
men and women to be equipped to love
each other you know we'll rebound I've
heard you say this before
we'll rebound but there there is a
trifecta of books that I think should be
mandatory and I mean this I'm not a big
fan of everybody should do something but
this one we should teach these in school
and they are the gulag archipelago okay
Mal the unknown story and the rise and
fall of the Third Reich and when you
realize
that will rebound I'm with you there but
that that when a hundred million people
are dying that doesn't help like that is
not like oh don't worry uh 100 years
from now everybody's gonna be fine uh
right now though people are dying by the
millions and I really don't want to see
this happen and so I feel like yes there
is all this evolutionary pressure of
like no no when you cooperate things are
better and so there'll be all these sort
of neurochemical cues that will
eventually get somebody to say hey guys
I think we're approaching this wrong way
look at this this will feel a lot better
people try it out and they're like yeah
this is better then those people grow up
and they teach their kids hey do this
but that's that's a long slow cycle and
in the interim things can go very very
wrong yeah and it's not a non-trivial
harm these concerted efforts to get men
and women to hate each other and be
adversarial even if it doesn't have the
Mass Effect if I'm the you know um yeah
more optimistic about our evolved
psychology being more powerful but yeah
you're right it's it's not nice to see
and we should challenge it in the
cultural conversation for sure so how do
we begin to challenge that how do we get
people to stop seeing each other as
adversaries I think uh my friend Chris
Williamson talks about it this kind of
idea of the third wave of the red pill
kind of thing this idea that we need to
move towards a very accurate cross-sex
mind reading psychology so to try and
educate the Sexes about how the other
side sees it genuinely really grapple
with that because you know we I think we
kind of only pay lip service to that
mission really of trying to see it as
the other side sees it and one example
I'll use there to show a real failure of
cross-sex mind reading is in cells when
they're asked are men in particular are
asked is there any such thing as a
female in cell why is there no such
thing as a female in cell and incels
would usually say well most women can go
out and get some sex or some love or
some relationship if they want it might
not be the sex or love that they want
but they can get some and for incels or
for men in particular some is always
better than none but that's not the case
for women for women sex or relationships
is very costly or potentially very
costly cost inflicting
so it's not like for men sex is like
pizza there's good pizza and there's
Pizza there's no bad pizza but for women
there really is bad pizza because it's a
costly thing and they'd rather go
without so
in cells are using their male typical
psychology to
try to empathize or not empathize with
their female counterparts and say oh no
you have some rather than none that's
better but that's only using male
typical psychology for women that's not
the case so is there a female version of
Intel it won't be tied to maybe mate
selection but what's the thing where
they want it so badly and they can't
have it and to them it's hope cope rope
maybe I don't think it'll be an exact
analog but there will be the case of so
many women who say they're struggling to
find and it I I know the term is a bit
of a grating one for many in cells but
eligible men or men that they want to be
with so when you're left with the choice
of either made down or don't mate at all
that doesn't seem like a great luxury
incels think that's a great luxury they
would say I'd mate down in a minute that
would solve my problem but that's not a
a solution to the problem for women so
it amounts to the same thing and when
I'm asked about where is the female in
cell Community there is a growing femcel
community of kind of similar to incels
hanging out in online forums and all
that stuff and they're saying my problem
is that I can't get sexually selected
yes it's similar enough but the more
analogous femcel situation is kind of
hidden in plain sight it's these
mainstream media articles about women
being unable to find eligible men
they're more likely the involuntary
single rather it's
um not the exact same thing but um the
difference is you have mainstream media
support and sympathy for these women and
it's oh men are not economically
attractive enough or not eligible enough
for these women
there's no such kind of Sympathy for the
Intel situation uh so the female inside
Community is kind of hidden in plain
sight it's these women who can't find
men to meet their standards very
interesting taking your own hypothesis
though I'm wondering if that's the one
so you said that extreme incel Behavior
probably looks like suicidality so they
hate themselves that's like their
primary thing it actually isn't misogyny
their primary uh I forget toxic language
I think is what yes that's right is is
self-hatred yes okay so what is the
thing that makes women have a primary
language of self-hatred is it uh I can't
find eligible men is it I'm unlovable is
it I'm not led by my parents I don't
know I'm trying to because women women
are more likely if I'm not mistaken
they're more likely to be suicidal to
attempt they're less likely to complete
by a lot yes but they're more likely to
be suicidal yes and more neurotic just
generally yeah so is it that they just
feel negative about any slight and so it
isn't specified to something like sex
and that just is where men sort of hyper
respond yeah I mean you could frame the
insult problem as we could argue that
there's too much of a hyper fixation on
the sexual component these are just
lonely young men who've retreated from
society more broadly they lack
friendships they're like jobs education
they're not engaging with Society so
you're not going to find in cells that
are great at something very few right
and you I hear some in cells screaming
now watching this saying no everything
is correct in my life I have a great
life and that's true for a minority but
for the most part they seem these very
disenfranchised young men like the
hikikimori in Japan are you familiar
with the hiki kimori yeah most people
won't be so please tell so the
hikikimori if we look at Japan over the
recent decades it describes the last
generation of young men who've just
completely retreated and barely even
leave their leave their homes and they
just get food delivered play video games
all day and don't engage with society
that could be a glimp why it happened to
Japanese the Japanese I'm not sure
exactly why but they're very
technologically advanced right and uh
with a kind of online culture so it
might be a glimpse into the future there
of people the idea of men hanging out in
online worlds
all day 20 years ago would have seemed
very very strange to us now it doesn't
seem that strange now you can very much
imagine it
um
so maybe Japan is just like a glimpse
into the future there uh with the hiki
kimori and I haven't studied it too
deeply but I believe there's a massive
absence of fathers in those homes so
just kind of uh Jordan Peterson talks
about it about the devouring mother who
just wants to keep their sons safe and
get them their food don't need to leave
the house son and the Sun is going to
walk all over them in terms of
dominating the mother from Rules uh I
didn't understand that say that again so
if you have a father figure I don't
think there's many fathers who are going
to tolerate their son staying inside
getting food delivered to the house
getting their mom to clean up after them
is going to say get up and go out and do
something but if you have an absence of
that the sun might feel
able to kind of maybe push over the
single mother who wants to keep him safe
as the Paramount value and safe and
comfortable and get the food delivered
clean up after them play your games and
it's very pacifying and that's kind of
what you see as typical with the
hikomori yeah this is why I really think
the the friction between male and female
temperaments is so necessary so I read
this book a long time ago called The
Power of myth by Joseph Campbell and he
talked about how hey I think a big
problem in society is that there are no
more rituals and because there are no
coming-of-age rituals you get this
interminable youth where there is no
moment where you take the kid out of the
woods you kick his teeth in you
circumcise him with no anesthetic uh you
make them kill a lion I mean they there
are some crazy coming-of-age rituals
that have existed and when I read that I
was like whoa because that very much my
journey was I grew up ultimately soft my
dad just got frustrated when I would be
weak but he didn't know how to say Hey
kid you need to toughen up or you didn't
know how to say it in a way that I could
hear he would just give up and and go do
something else and what I needed was to
be around people that just did not
tolerate that and so my wife certainly
began that process and then getting in
business was the market does not care
forgiving and it's like you know you
either figure it out or you don't and so
in in pursuit of getting good at that I
gave myself over to reality I guess the
right way to say it and so
um the idea of the devouring mother who
feeds into that into that into that
is really played out in these rituals
and so in the book The Power myth I
think anyway I've read about this so
many times I can't remember which one
let's say it was the power of myth uh he
talked about how what would happen is
the the night or the day whatever
whenever this ritual happened the sun
would be in with the women and they
would come in ritualistically tear him
away from the mother who either
performatively or for real is like no no
don't take them and so they would rip
him away from the mother to be like okay
that world is done that door is closed
and then they would go do whatever uh
and the one that my audience will have
heard me say many times is what Nelson
Mandela went through which his book long
walk to Freedom is absolutely
extraordinary and in it he talks about
his Coming of Age ritual I think he was
14 and they get you in like three or
four other boys uh they sit you down
Buck Naked they have you in front of the
whole village they have you sit there uh
leg spread and uh I don't know or
whatever comes with a really sharp Rock
grabs your foreskin and just lops it off
and then you have to yell A Warrior's
Credo I forget what it was he says in
the book and
and I just thought yo like as terrifying
as that is having a moment like that
where you have to go through something
where you are ritualistically removed
from the world of the feminine and
it's it's not a coincidence that they
have you yell this Warrior Credo
um to shift you into you are now
different and and I need to go back and
reread this but I'm pretty sure that
then what they do is they cover your
entire body in mud and then as it dries
that night or the next day I can't
remember a young woman comes in and
washes it off your naked body and I
thought whoa like it's so like it's such
a thing like you pass through this
moment and if I'm not conflating that
and it really is a young woman comes and
wipes it off there's really something
that indoctrinates you into like that
whole world I don't know man like I find
that really interesting and and as I try
to Think Through the problem of
societal context has changed we've
become hyper aware I don't like the way
that hyper awareness makes you cynical
but I also like the way that we can
refine some of these rituals and now I'm
sort of answering my own question from
the very beginning of this like how do
we back off that precipice when we're so
aware of this stuff and I know that
there are guys out there now creating
these groups where they do take boys and
like these hard Retreats and they talk
to them [ __ ] hard in a way they
probably never even talked about like
stop [ __ ] crying I don't want to hear
it I know trust me comments freaking out
but I'm telling you as a boy that needed
to learn I was way in touch with my
emotions that was not the lesson I
needed to learn and so it was like I had
to also learn to have a gear of being
tough as [ __ ] and like you have to have
that gear if you don't have that gear I
don't care how in touch with your
emotions are life is going to be brutal
in a way it does not need to be brutal
if you figure out the other gear now my
marriage is a result of me being in
touch with my emotions being highly
articulate understanding my insecurities
all that very useful but if I didn't
also have this other gear yeah no bueno
that's so interesting to see and to hear
about those kind of archetypal motifs
come through with those rituals you've
described like the devouring mother it's
even echoed in the way they do the
ritual that's so interesting
um but yeah the lack of ritual at least
whatever about the character of the
ritual itself the the marker of having
achieved a certain stage in life there's
a complete absence of that now
there's just a delayed adolescence and
kind of a when do you do a certain thing
it's kind of uh and even like the
mailing Market the way it works there's
no clear-cut blueprint it's very
atomized there's no one helping you you
know for most of our ancestral history
you would have had your friends or your
family helping you form your mate trips
now it's just you and the app very
isolating very atomized and uh yeah it's
not there's no ritual about it do people
even set each other up on dates anymore
but I don't think that's a done thing
anymore it's just very isolating what do
you think about arranged marriages
uh
it's interesting when you look at them
uh they have like a success rate of
people who fall in love more uh because
the idea is that well when you didn't
have that much choice and you weren't
thinking how what's my way out when you
think well I have no way out it's kind
of like you heard described with your
wife
the d word is not an option that's
really not an option in an arranged
marriage so they tend to make the best
out of it so that's probably what we
find is there data that they're more
successful there's some data I believe
that shows they're more successful
because it's just that when you reduce
the other options it's like we might as
well make the most out of this and I'm
not going to second guess my husband's
annoying habits of leaving everything
out on the counter because this is my
husband and that's it you know so that's
really interesting so this was this was
something that my wife and I came to
very early and I'm very grateful for it
was when we got together we said okay
the experiment we're running is what
does it look like when somebody shares a
life forever and they're going to be
certain constraints that we have to put
on our relationship to make sure that
works and one of them is we can't what
we call let dust settle so you can't
just let something go that bothers you
you have to address it and you have to
come up with Rules of Engagement so
around the me liking things to be
efficient or liking things to be tidy
we've had to come up with Rules of
Engagement of how we navigate that thing
also coming to understand the difference
between a collision and base assumptions
which is I think the world works like
this and difference in values I think
the world
ought to work like this and when you
have a difference in base assumptions
like oh I never considered a different
angle I didn't realize I had that base
assumption thank you for pointing that
out now I can adjust and one of us is
right about you know it it I had just
never considered another thing and we're
moving from base assumption to value
system going from well this is how it is
but it's not necessarily how it ought to
be it ought to be like this and can we
change it and so realizing when you have
a conflict of values you have a problem
and when you have a conflict of values I
understand your position you understand
my position I can articulate your
position so well that you will say the
words you understand my position
perfectly and vice versa and I still
think you're wrong yeah and so now we
have to have a rule of how we deal with
that thing but if you don't
say there's no and look my wife and I
have always said there there are three
things that we will not tolerate for a
second beating and cheating and a
Loveless marriage okay so you beat you
cheat
done uh and then if this becomes a
Loveless marriage if we can't unwind
that then of course we would exit so but
we're doing everything that we can like
I promise my wife I guarantee it I will
never cheat on you ever I may break up
with you but I'm never going to cheat on
you because that's in my control but if
I've become someone happy or you know
whatever then I would address that first
um but if you don't put those confines
because as I really again just thinking
through the initial question that we
asked like how how do you back away from
all this I think you you have to have
confidence you have to have self-imposed
limitations and yes I understand that
some of the argument is like oh my God
are you telling people what to do yes
[ __ ] I am telling you what to do
and the question I'm all 10 fingers
appointed to me I'm telling myself what
to do because why I have a North star
and that North Star is very definable
and it is human flourishing and I think
the way to human flourish is through the
recipe of fulfillment the recipe of
fulfillment just has limitations and I
forget where I first heard this but your
goal makes demands and once you decide
my goal is human flourishing
it makes demands yeah and one of those
demands as far as I can see is there are
going to be limitations put on something
somewhere yeah probably a lot of things
that's kind of what I was getting at
earlier about this uh the maybe the
corrosive nature of the primary value
for people doing freedom and no nothing
being imposed upon me you seem like the
type of guy that you and your wife and
your relationship for the service of
that higher goal uh you're happy to
accept kind of um impositions on
yourself and like rules and things like
that and that seems quite healthily
integrated and there seems to be a kind
of a cultural resistance against that
type of thing and it's like no nobody
should control you except you the
individual hyper individualism is a I
can actually like I don't Hackle at
nobody should be able to control you but
you uh at the edges I am not a
Libertarian I we need some government
but I think governments become very
pathological so you have to be have a
very big distrust for that uh so I don't
Hackle at that statement a lot
but what I think gets thrown out in the
baby in the bathwater is that I think
people think that means you shouldn't
have constraints I'm just saying you
should be able to choose your
constraints yes a new team to choose
them yeah and you're you in my
estimation should be choosing your
constraints based on what is the outcome
of this situation without these
constraints yeah and that's where I feel
like we've gotten into some weird
politically correct Quagmire where
people don't want to talk about what is
true and that and look I asked my
audience for a lot of Grace on this and
and I guess in the macro I get it
because people still watch my content if
you read the comments not always in the
micro
um but I need to be able to think
through these topics and the way that we
think I mean literally these
conversations are my way of thinking
through these problems I get to say
things out loud that could be
horrendously terrible ideas but if I
can't say them out loud I can't find the
edges of where they work and where they
stop working exactly yeah that and
that's like your audience has to be kind
of like a family in charitable to you in
terms of yeah latitude to think things
through out loud
yeah so I don't need my audience to be a
family hey I just don't think that's
realistic but uh what I do want is for
them to recognize at a societal level
forget me as an individual even forget
themselves as an individual at the
societal level if you can't talk about
ideas and work through them and all
collectively go that's a terrible idea
uh and that's a great idea as evidenced
by the result that we get not what
sounds good but actually yields the
right result
then we won't be able to make progress
towards human flourishing as a society
yeah I agree yeah but you kind of get
that organically with your family
members they can give you that Latitude
to talk they don't forget everything
they knew about you when you say
something wrong it's like oh they said
something wrong but I know it's not
exactly what he means there's this very
uncharitable kind of dynamic towards
people now the minute they make a slip
up with saying something particularly
online it's like gotcha that's it that's
you forever and always it's not yeah we
look at people in just isolation like
that
how do you deal with that because you're
somebody who's on a
um an academic track the academy has
become very uh feminized and The
Feminine mode of fighting is reputation
uh dismantling and so you're somebody
out here popping off on a podcast with a
guy that's saying some crazy [ __ ] you
might say some crazy [ __ ] uh how do you
think about that as an academic
um luckily I haven't been burned by it
so far fingers crossed but uh yeah I'm
kind of lucky enough to have financial
support that I don't need to kind of be
so worried about oh I have to get any
academic job I kind of want an academic
job where I'll feel happy and secure and
free to think and research the topics I
want to research talk about things the
way I want to talk about them I don't
know if you heard my supervisor he did
an episode with Joe Rogan
um and he said that this year we was one
of the first times in like a 30-year
career where he went to the dean of the
university to say I want to be able to
teach sex and gender and sexuality the
way I know I need to make sure I have
your backing or I'm not going to teach
it in case if there's any complaints I
need to make sure I have your backing
before I do and he got that guarantee
and that was the first time he had ever
done anything like that that's a very
odd thing to for me to learn because
he's someone who's an absolute Legend in
our field and I'm like if he needs to
get those assurances maybe I ought to be
a bit more wary but yeah I kind of only
want to work in an academic job that I
would want and I'd never want to be one
in one that I'm going to be completely
hamstrung and not able to think about
the things I want to think about or talk
about the things I want to talk about
man long may that continue in speaking
the pendulum swinging back I do feel
some momentum now in the opposite
direction
you know for a long time that was why I
didn't even really want to formulate
thoughts around the stuff because I I
didn't want to be incongruous so I
didn't want to believe something
privately that I was unwilling to say
publicly
but at the same time it just seemed so
[ __ ] dangerous I was like
I don't love that idea and honestly
while I love doing the podcast I love
doing the podcast my wife asked me the
other day I'm trying to build the next
Disney like that's my identity my
identity is not as Tony Robbins or Joe
Rogan my identity is Walt Disney
um that is what I want to build and so
I've always been a little worried that
I'll damage the brand because the brand
becomes a visual representation of my
thoughts and feelings
which may or may not work we are very
much a mission-driven company which is
um I want to empower people to live by a
set of ideas that will actually lead
them to human flourishing
um but yeah I've always been a little
bit worried about that but I've for
better or were sort of thrown that to
the wind anyway my wife asked me if
um
if that side of the business were to
take off would I stop doing the podcast
and I was like yes I would
um
so it's interesting but anyway I for
better or worse I've decided that
um
to think through these problems well
myself to be a useful conduit to society
and I think podcasts have really become
this incredible mechanism by which the
culture thinks through problems forget
any one of us individually the culture
thinks through problems via podcasts
where we can get I mean think about how
weird this is that a doctoral student uh
I get to bring him in and like okay
you're studying this thing like tell me
all about it and then the world gets to
hear yeah you do that it's crazy and
there is an appetite for people to watch
long-form conversations just between two
guys like that's pretty cool like who
could have saw that coming you know they
talked about like HBO Max the the public
audience has an attention span you got
to keep it who could have ever predicted
you could fill out Arenas with guys
having a debate and things like that
it's remarkable it's great it re-engaged
a whole generation with intellectual
life it's brilliant no it's been cool
and I'm look I'll give a shout out to
Jordan Peterson who I've had on the show
a couple times would love to have him
back again uh I don't want his life I
can't fath them how many slings and
arrows he's taken at one point he said
that he was in the middle of like 10
lawsuits I was just like Jesus man like
that would be exhausting at a level that
I just can't fathom yeah
um strangely enough I heard you bring up
free speech somebody like asked you for
the closing question we're like what's a
thing you would leave people and you
said free speech yeah I was shocked by
that what are your thoughts on Free
Speech yeah it's just something that I
think people don't appreciate as a
master value enough it's the only way
mechanism through which you can kind of
self-correct yourself as a society I'd
rather have questions I can't answer
than answers I can't question oh you
need to um who said that I don't
remember but that's a good one but
that's exactly the way I feel but I
think Free Speech as a value like kind
of people give lip service to it but
they really don't mean it and I think we
really need to re-engage that uh part of
ourselves like as a core value in the
social fabric it's a huge Master value
needs to be uh respected I agree
speaking of things you can't question
evolutionary psychology comes under
attack a lot I don't understand why it
seems so self-evident to me
um
why does it what what is people's beef
with evolutionary psychology uh I think
a lot of that can be described with the
naturalistic fallacy so that's where the
belief that because some of our findings
grapple with finding dark aspects of
human nature that what we're saying is
natural is seen as to say that that's
good you're justifying it justifying it
and that's precisely the opposite the
only way you can overcome some of the
dark aspects of your nature so like
Darwin talked about the Hostile forces
of nature there's a lot of hostile
forces of our own human nature that we
need to overcome and we do it all the
time like physical violence we have
instincts for those that we overcome all
the time you need to be able to
understand them and there's no point in
burying your head in the sand so I think
that a lot of people have that criticism
uh I think also people don't are
becoming increasingly resistant to sex
differences because they say some as
being demeaning to others I I don't
really know why I can't fully explain
everything that's going on in the full
resistance to sex differences but there
is this cultural drive to pretend that
men and women are the same and treat
them the same but do you think they're
pretending do they really believe it so
it was very interesting my supervisor
wrote a book called when men behave
badly the hidden roots of sexual
deception harassment and assault and in
one of the chapters where he talks about
sex differences he tops the chapter with
a quote from the intersectional feminist
Kimberly kremshaw and says when you
treat different things the same and you
get that's not a recipe for equality you
need that's to say that's the same as
oppression it's treating uh different
things the exact same so if you treat
men and women the exact same and pretend
there are no differences between them
that's actually oppressive and often to
women so one example I'll use is the
reasonable person standard for sexual
crimes so I mentioned earlier in the
episode that men perceive sexual
harassment and stalking and crimes of
this nature as far less harmful than
women do so when we have a legal system
that relies on reasonable person
standard it very much matters whether
that reasonable person is a reasonable
woman or a reasonable man so that's just
a very kind of a thought experiment to
think whoa actually sex differences
could have a huge function here we maybe
shouldn't consider things as the same
you know we're not just completely
exactly the same so that's a an
interesting way it's really powerful
this is something that I come around to
in my marriage all the time and I'm
telling my wife constantly you're
judging my behavior based on what it
would mean if you did it it isn't what
it means when I do it and so you have to
be really careful to your earlier point
about theory of mind and like trying to
get into the other person's mind and
figure out okay what what does it mean
when a guy does it or a girl does it and
so yeah I'll go back to this idea of
boys and girls yeah we're all prediction
engines and you're closer to the truth
when you can more accurately predict the
outcome of your behaviors when I view my
wife as thinking the way that I think
she confuses the life out of me and I'm
like why are you responding like that
that doesn't make any sense when I think
of her as a more typical woman then it's
like oh I get it okay from your frame of
reference you're gonna respond like that
very predictably got it understood and
that like in just trying to alleviate
the suffering of other people I'm like
you will do yourself a great service if
you come to understand at the individual
level you're there's always going to be
surprises a hundred percent where these
are bell curves the difference between
men and women bell curves we have more
in common than we have different but if
you don't understand where the bell
curves begin to diverge
you will be very confused especially on
any metric where you're towards the end
of the bell curve so if you're towards
the one end of the bell curve on on a
trait let's say sexual desire so you're
towards the high end of male sexual
desire just massive drive and you're a
significant other is on the low end of
the female Spectrum for sexual desire
now it's like she's so far lower than
the lowest man that it's like bro yeah
you're so much farther High than the
highest woman she's so much farther low
than the lowest man that that is you
better understand the differences
otherwise you will take it personally
yeah if nothing else that's literally
what our lab is focusing on researching
now is this cross-sex theory of mind and
how accurate or inaccurate is each sex
about these massive sexual psychology
differences in sexual desires and
perception of the cost of sexual harm
things like that and a more accurate
cross-sex theory of mind is the first
step to reducing sexual conflict because
you know there are so many examples it's
why men send dick pics and think because
they would love to receive such a
picture themselves they think maybe I
would wish I baby if you're listening I
would love it if you took pictures of
your your lovely bits and just sent them
to me in a Non-Stop barrage uh there's a
funny articulous some BuzzFeed
journalists actually tried to do this
experiment she said she was going to
have revenge on all the men who sent her
dick pics and just send them [ __ ] pics
in return talk about a failure to cross
sex mind read exactly like bring it on
yes but there are also some other dark
examples of failures of cross-sex mind
reading so do you remember Brock Turner
the the swimmer the swimmer athlete that
raped this girl behind a dumpster and
you guys stopped him and uh his father
said oh but he only uh why should he
have to sacrifice his whole future the
whole thing only lasted about 20 seconds
oh God it's like oh wow what a failure
of cross effects mind reading there's
other examples of a Texas governor I
believe or some politician where he said
if a woman is getting raped and she
can't get out of her she might as well
just lay back and enjoy it
and all of these things are like extreme
examples of massive failures of
cross-sex mind reading that if you
understood how bad that is for the woman
you would never be able that's that's
bad that's pretty bad even number man
right because if I'm getting raped and
the guy's like well you can't get out of
it bro you might as well lay back what
the [ __ ] are you talking about exactly
yeah so these are extreme examples but
there is some level of this at play of
the ineffability or inaccessibility of
the others exact sexual psychology but
we can educate ourselves about that and
try to bridge that Gap Jesus all right
how can people follow you and Bridge
more of these gaps great well like most
academics I spend far too much time on
Twitter so my handle is at Costello
William and that's where you'll be able
to keep track of most of the stuff I've
got going on I'll I'll post about it
plenty I love it all right everybody if
you haven't already be sure to subscribe
and until next time my friends be
legendary take care peace
if you want to know what it means to be
a real man be sure to watch this episode
with Chris Williamson masculinity has a
very difficult place to stand in 2023 to
be able to find a place which is both
aspirational for young men to look up to
and also acceptable publicly that seems
to be