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Language: en
you can drink and do drugs and watch
porn if you still do this that's all
that matters I want to do the formula
and then live my life how I want to live
each of us gets to make a daily choice
to play the victim or play the game and
if you're gonna play the game I suggest
you play to win and like all games life
has a set of physics there are things
that work and things that don't work
your job is to experiment until you find
the vein of Effectiveness to that end I
bring you Alex hormozzi the man with a
proven system for identifying
destructive habits and turning success
into a repeatable process
you are ridiculously good at writing
instruction manuals for how to make
money
literally you are singular in that way
but if people think poorly or they do
dumb things they're never going to make
progress so what advice do you have for
people that are wasting time on things
like porn social media or even just a
friend group that is going nowhere fast
if you it's my belief that if you could
control every one of the variables
externally to an organism you can
control Its Behavior
so one of my favorite quotes from BF
Skinner who is a behavior psychologist
from way back in the day was uh the old
saying is you can lead a horse to water
but you can't make a drink he said well
if you bleed it out enough and you
starve it and you leave it in the sun
and you put the water right in front of
its mouth he's like I can invaritably
guarantee that I can make a drink
and so if you were to think about
yourself as that horse then it's like
okay well what is the equivalent of the
the bloodletting the dehydration the
starving that you can put yourself into
get the behavior you want so starving
has a negative connotation but we can
also starve out
the negative things in your life like
you can starve the alcohol you can
starve the porn you can starve the
friends and I think the easiest way to
do that is to get out of the environment
you're in because like I'm sure you
heard about the I think this was in
atomic habits
um in Vietnam
I think it was like 10 of troops or
something we're taking heroin
um when they were there in the 70s they
thought there was going to be this
massive problem when they came back to
the States but when they came back to
the States almost no one continued the
heroin habit and so going from Vietnam
we were doing heroin to the U.S what
you're not doing taking heroin how to
had a 90 success rate whereas the
inverse is true of recovery centers in
the United States today people go there
and 90 of them relapse when they go back
home and so the difference is that
people were doing heroin in a different
environment and then they changed their
environment and then they never went
back to the environment that they did
heroin in and so it's like if you have
these behaviors that have cues from the
people the surroundings the colleagues
family whatever I think even if you
can't afford to move out of the state
like almost anybody can move across town
even 30 minutes away to just make it a
little bit more inconvenient for your
drug dealer for your bars that you know
for the friends to say you know hey
we're doing fantasy whatever on Friday
and it's like I can't make it right you
just make it inconvenient to do all the
things that you don't want to do and
make it more convenient to do the things
that you do and you'll do more of them
all right so the interesting thing for
me about the Vietnam heroin thing which
I've heard before is and this relates to
why I think people might be struggling
now is there's an underlying thing
that's happening that the the heroine or
the porn or the social media or whatever
is trying to mask and cope with
what what is that today like we have
things amazing things could not be
better yeah but you've got people doing
things to numb themselves out to what's
that thing they're afraid to face
I think it's their perceived judgment
their perception of other people's
Judgment of their failures that haven't
existed yet
and so when you're when you think about
constructing a mindset that is going to
allow somebody to be successful like
when I think about your blueprints
if you had to prep somebody to be ready
to deal with that blueprint what are
some of the either core beliefs or
habits that you would get them in the
routine of doing so that they could
actually deploy the things that you
teach
I think some of the things that I'll say
might sound repetitive to some folks but
I'm a big believer in a lot of the stoic
virtues
um and a lot of that just comes down to
having your opinion of yourself
be all that is required
and so
um
it's like it's like living for the
future version of yourself and letting
that person be your ultimate judge and
no one else's voice and I think that
obviously it takes practice for social
creatures we learn how to behave from
other people and their judgment of our
behavior when we're kids and then we
have to unlearn it as we're adults
because we find out that the people who
are giving us feedback actually have no
idea what they're doing
so but like it's super ingrained in us
and I think it just it's a long process
but like how do I prepare someone for
that
foreign
it's like everything is removing the
limitation right it's like I want to get
to here and so getting there is usually
straightforward it's the obstacles that
are all the things that people put in
their own way so it's like what are
because the obstacle might be have a
different name for every person and and
then trying to pull apart like why is
this thing like why am I putting weight
on this thing because
you had a strong drive when you were
growing up right and you wanted to get
into Film School you had this thing like
I don't know what that snap point is for
me I just like my fear of disapproval
from you know my dad was my big was my
big driver and so that was the thing
that could get me to quit whatever it
was you know what I mean to do the one
thing that mattered more
and I think that's at least for me that
was
I don't know how to find that for
someone
you said something in one of the
interviews that you were doing leading
up to your book launch that really hit
me and that was um you rewrote the book
something like 19 times and when you got
to a point one time you're like look
they're gonna be able to get this and
the guy we were working with said look
there's a guy in Iran and he has one
goat yeah and he's gonna sleep with a
copy of this book under his pillow yeah
do it for him yeah and that somehow
sparked you yeah so my question is given
your response to that given everybody
needs that thing are there some people
that are Beyond reach
no
I don't think I mean unless you have
like mental disability I mean like I
think that barring biology right
um no I don't think so I think I think
I'm a big behavioral person which is
like anything can be trained
um even like ah man he has such a great
personality it's like what is
personality well personality is probably
170 individual skills and so if one of
them is when someone walks in the room
you stand up
I can train that if it means that like
when someone's talking I need you to nod
your head like this when the other
person talks I can train that and if we
just had to make a checklist it's just
because it's hard to describe doesn't
mean it's that's impossible to teach
that's interesting okay so the the spark
the thing that causes somebody to
finally get into it
um can be translated into a set of
behaviors totally and then if you get
the set of behaviors then you're going
to be in a position to go right right so
um what are some of the behaviors that
people are doing now that you think are
destructive and what do we replace them
with
a lot of it is inaction
right like it's I'd love to say like all
these people are failing and this is the
thing that would fix it it's like most
people just don't take action to begin
with and so I think a lot of it's
between their ears
um to your point which is why I talk a
lot about fear of failure
um being being the actual enemy rather
than failure itself and really even like
even the idea that people are like I'm
afraid of failing no one's afraid of
failing people are afraid of other
people's judgment about their failure if
you could fail in private no one would
know like when you play video games and
you lose the level you're not
embarrassed
right like interesting so I've heard you
say that before yeah and I've always
agreed yeah but I do think that there is
something that will chip away at
somebody it so it comes down to what do
you build your self-esteem around this
was the big breakthrough in my life was
the day that I realized I got to choose
what I built my self-esteem around and I
had been building my self-esteem around
being smart and so I was constantly
putting myself in a position where I
could prove to myself and others that I
was smart I began to realize we are both
the shout and the Echo and I wish it
weren't so I wish we weren't the Echo
and what I mean by that is you're what
you do but you're also what other people
say about what you do and as a just
unimaginably social creature it is baked
so deeply into our DNA right I don't
think there's any escaping that so you
come into whether it's playing video
games or trying to build a business or
whatever
with a lifetime of being both the shout
and the echo yeah so you have a sense of
who you are you've mapped your
self-esteem and now if part of your
self-esteem is I'm good at this thing
yeah after a while like you're way
happier to fail in private because
nobody sees you so there's no new Echo
reinforcing what an you are but
I don't think you have unlimited
failures on your side before you go
maybe I'm really not good at this thing
and if your self-esteem is about being
good at that thing then it really will
begin to erode you do you have uh
assuming I'm right about that do you
have a thing that you encourage people
to build their self-esteem around to
avoid the kind of traps that will make
them afraid of failure
I think it would be around the traits
which can be evidenced by the things you
do which I think is probably where you
made your shift unless there's me
assuming here but um like it's not about
being intelligent about being like hard
working right it's like if you if you
build your identity around that trait
then you can always do more of it like
you always work harder you can always do
X put extra reps in ETC
um
and I think yeah people build build that
trait as their as their identity and
where they get their self-esteem from
then it becomes a self-reinforcing cycle
but they're the ones who are in control
of it rather than the outcome and so
that way it's like all of the variables
of your identity and your
self-confidence are under your control
which I think is cool
which is very cool so have you
identified the trait Smorgasbord that
people have at their ready to be
thoughtful about so for instance being
smart would be a trait being honorable
being honest being hard working
um what should people be building their
self-esteem or what traits is there one
is there a magic handful
I think the ability to delay
gratification
and from a behavioral perspective it's
being able to continue to act on a
longer extinguished curve which is like
if I knock on a door so if I knock on a
door and nothing happens how many more
times do I knock on the door before
someone opens so like if you if you if
you fire someone and they're like wait I
I want my job right you can you can
measure what someone's curve on how many
times they will try again on something
before they move on and give up right
and so the longer you can make that
curve on someone the more likely they
will hit the jackpot which then extends
how many more times they'll go the next
time which is basically how addiction
works too but you can also use the same
concept for good things so number one is
being able to delay gratification
um the second one is uh I think it's
it's
vision of what you actually want to do
is like where do you want to go because
you can have somebody who works really
hard at building a restaurant like one
single store and you work really hard at
building uh an app that's going to
change the world the amount of hours and
effort that go into building an amazing
restaurant and that are probably about
the same the amount of impact is
disproportionate on something that can
go to gazillions of people so I think
you have to have some level of vision
um and that comes from the people that
you're around
the third one is
is having some level of drive and I
think that you can have either pool or
or away from Drive pick which one or
whichever one you've got more of I would
say start with that one and I think it
does shift over time because many
entrepreneurs have away from Drive in
the beginning we're afraid of failing
we're afraid of not being enough
you know we hate being poor whatever
your thing is
um a lot of times especially I get a lot
of DMS about this it's like I'm trying
to find my passion I'm trying to find my
purpose my thing and um I don't think
you find it I think you make it how do
you know if you're going to like
anything without trying it you don't and
most people hate things that they suck
at and how do you stop sucking at stuff
you you do stuff that you suck at a lot
until you suck less until you're
eventually good and so it's like so you
so you're not going to be passionate
about anything that you suck at which
means that it's a fallacy of thinking
I have a hypothesis that haunts me and
that hypothesis Is For Real partly
because it applies to me uh that
hypothesis is that people have a very
hard time holding sophisticated ideas in
their head part of what I think makes
you so amazing and PS I would like to
say that almost a year ago I said within
the next five years you'll be one of the
biggest uh names in social media and I
think you crushed the timeline Just
monstrously You Killed the predictions
hey there it is uh just really really um
crazy but people really have
um just such a a difficult time holding
sophisticated ideas in their head the
thing that makes you as amazing is that
you are able to hold sophisticated ideas
in your head and simplify them so that
people can understand and they can
deploy them and actually use them but
the inability to hold the sophisticated
idea in their head is going to create a
tremendous amount of problems so when I
think about okay you're going to have to
to pick something for your identity
that's going to allow you to face
failure to go into that Loop you know to
be able to tear yourself down and not
have your desire to push forward
extinguished you already have to be able
to conceptualize that idea that you're
going to be fighting against your
neurochemistry so you're going to knock
on that door it is going to be brutal
it's it's going to feel so bad like
death and you then have to do mental
Jujitsu to translate that into ah but I
build my self-esteem around being the
person that can have this long
extinguisher that I can knock on a
thousand doors when anybody else can
only knock on Two And
I worry God is my big fear that I do
think some people are Beyond reach I
think that is my big fear
and I do impact theory is predicated on
the idea that as long as somebody meets
minimum requirements that they're going
to be able to do it but
press on this point because I'm deeply
optimistic and so Lord knows I hope that
you convince me
but the more I do this game the more I
realize that people get trapped in
things like
um I'm trying to find my passion yeah
and that the emotion of nothing feeling
real yeah is and and what you have to do
to build a connection between I choose
to make this my passion and how you make
that emotionally resonant is so
sophisticated that most people won't be
able to pull it off yeah
you talk about stacking Pennies on the
evidence
what evidence do you have
for all of us that it anybody really can
turn
a lack of belief into simple rudimentary
Behavioral
things that they do to get those wins
yeah
so
I'll make a statement and then I'll I'll
answer that which is um
I think like confidence without evidence
is delusion and so the idea that you
aren't confident if you don't feel
confident right now is okay because the
question is what are you trying to be
confident about like confidence as a
word right if we can Define terms is uh
you're the own percent how
the percentage likelihood that you have
that what you think will happen or will
happen right like in statistics like
what is our confidence score on this
metric right and so the same thing
applies to a person what is our
confidence that when Johnny says he will
do this it will happen and so we have
our own confidence metric for ourselves
which is a percentage likely that we
will do what we say we're going to do
and so the way that you can increase
that confidence is to have more evidence
that you've done things when you said
you would do them in the past and so I
think it's about looking retrospectively
and thinking you know what story can I
tell around this data that would give me
more evidence that I actually do have
some of these trades that I didn't think
about and I'll give you a funny little
clip on this so when I was selling
weight loss memberships way back in the
day I remember a common thing that would
come in uh would you know a lady would
come sit down and say you know um I
haven't worked out in seven years and I
know I need to be going to the gym and I
would say that's amazing and they would
just be shocked what do you mean I'm
like you're so consistent
I was like so you already have the trade
of consistency we just have to flip it I
was like it's way harder to learn to be
consistent then I was like if you were
just yoyoing back and forth all the time
I was like it might be way harder I was
like but you actually stick with what
you what you said and they were like
never thought about it like that and so
it's just like and I say that a little
bit tongue-in-cheek but to the same
degree it was really just a reframe for
these people and whether or not you know
people want to take that and run with it
in whatever Direction though like for me
I just wanted this person to believe
they could do it and so I think to the
same degree it's like well if every day
you didn't make 100 reach outs right or
you didn't make the piece of content
that you wanted to but up until that
point you've always like been able to
like make a cup of coffee and like sit
down at the computer rather than uh
going to the arcade you know
figuratively or you know playing video
games or going live video games as much
to you Alex no going to the arcade boys
and girls back in the 1980s yeah and so
and so it's counting the win sometimes
of losses that didn't happen which is
like what could have gone worse which is
also a stock frame but it's like what
could I have done to mess this day up
more than I did it's like well I could
have I mean I could have taken five
shots when I woke up I didn't do that
it's like okay check great I okay I
haven't I haven't started my day with
drinking uh have I started my day with
drugs no how many days in a row have I
not started my days with drugs you know
drugs and drinking it's like
know a whole year it's like okay well
like let's just basically chunk down a
level and then you see all of a sudden
you like peel back the onion and you're
like oh I have tons of evidence that I
can be consistent on things I just need
to add another thing on top of those
behaviors that I already have proven
that I can do and so now when I make
this prediction of my confidence that I
can do this
like you just take one step at a time
and I think that the the big meta skills
um come from those what we call virtues
but virtues are just behaviors which can
be trained
virtues are behaviors that can be
trained it's really interesting man I I
very much like the way that you look at
the world and I think I've tried to um
articulate a similar idea and the way
that I approached it was it doesn't
matter if you think negatively and
um act well you'll still get the success
out of acting well if you act poorly but
think positively you'll go nowhere and
this is why it drives me crazy when
people's advices look in the mirror and
say that you love yourself and all that
it won't work and at the end of the day
success really is just it's doing the
right things
um another killer so
I I do look out at the world right now
and I see where
Building Products that squeeze our
dopamine has created amazing products
the iPhone is incredible and I'm very
glad that it exists but I also see it
having a very negative impact on a lot
of people that simply uh pull the
dopamine lever and for people that
aren't familiar with there was a
behavioral study done in mice or rats
and if you let one you're putting the
mouse in a cage so you're already as an
artificially limited environment but if
you let it tap the lever for cocaine
yeah it will tap it until it dies yeah
now the fascinating thing about cocaine
is that it's dopamine it's the
basically the potential for for reward
more than the reward itself and so I
think that
we have a lot of products that do
incredibly well because they're all
about squeezing that dopamine release
and therefore for people to do what
you're talking about like if let's just
embrace the frame for the rest of this
conversation and I hope the rest of my
life that truly nobody is beyond this
barring you know some um a mental
problem that makes it impossible for
them to move forward so that you really
just have to find those behaviors so if
you understand that the world right now
is designed to get you to be watching
pornography to be playing on social
media to play mindless video games I
will say as somebody making video games
I'm well aware there there's usefulness
and then there's is waste
um
but understanding all of that that the
world is set up against you then you
have to have a technique that's going to
allow you to get into these habits that
are going to be effective now one thing
that was absolutely transformative in my
life was of rules to just a an absolute
binary and so um this this will be a hot
take that will piss some people off but
I've always said I do not understand how
people get addicted to drugs because if
you just have a rule in your life that
says obviously I will exclude pain
management right if you just have a rule
in your life that says I don't let's
take drinking I don't drink more than
twice a week period so if you've taken a
drink for the third time in the week
you've violated your rule you know that
you're out of bounds you need to
immediately correct course
do you leverage rules or things binary
things so that you know like I give
myself 10 minutes to get out of bed
that's like my big rule do you have
anything like that that allows you to I
probably live the exact opposite way
you can reboot your life your health
even your career anything you want all
you need is discipline I can teach you
the tactics that I learned while growing
a billion dollar business that will
allow you to see your goals through
whether you want better health stronger
relationships a more successful career
any of that is possible with the mindset
and business programs in Impact Theory
University join the thousands of
students who have already accomplished
amazing things tap now for a free trial
and get started today not as a contrary
point just um I I hate rules all rules
and so um how do you stay on the right
behaviors
I I do the things that have rewarded me
in the past
I mean that genuinely like when I wake
up earlier better things have happened
for me when I do more work before I have
my meetings better things have happened
for me when I eat a certain way I look
the way that I want and better things
happen for me and so
um I just I I Buck against rules really
hard and I don't know why that is but uh
like the moment someone's like you can't
have chocolate or you can't smoke or you
can't whatever I'm like why not I'll do
it and then still win at the thing to
prove that that's not the point which is
why like I get I get annoyed with a lot
of the Superstition around uh routine
and what I mean by that is like
you know we've got I mean I remember
there was a guy message me he's like
dude I'm doing my my morning routine
he's like and I have a cold plunge a red
lights on a ground outside and then I do
my gratitude journal and then I like
this list it was like you know he was
taking like three hours to get his
routine done or whatever in the morning
um
I was like you know you could
just not do that and work
for three more hours every day I was
like I'll bet you'll make more money and
so I think there's a lot of superstition
right now especially Entrepreneur Space
around routine as like if I don't get my
morning routine and I'm just useless and
I'm like man I'd love to compete against
you right because like you have one bad
night of sleep and you're I was
like
I will continue to work because working
has worked for me in the past but I love
what you were saying earlier with like
success doesn't really care or the
result doesn't really care one plus one
if you still do the addition it equals
two whether you're a good person or a
bad person if you make 100 calls or you
you know make 100 pieces of content the
likelihood that somebody will find out
about your product is greater than if
you make zero period fight me and so you
can do those things and be you could you
can drink and do drugs and watch porn
if you still do the that's all that
matters
now those things might make it more more
difficult but I I always came in from
the perspective of like I want to do the
formula and then live my life how I want
to live and if that means that sometimes
I drink more and sometimes I drink less
or sometimes I work out more and
sometimes work out less sometimes eat
dessert sometimes I eat really small
desserts
um that's fine and so I it's just like
what like what are the what are the
actual things that matter and if you
look at and I know you have a lot of
wealthy friends like people the way
people work the routines that they have
are so varied which to me means that
they don't matter
because if there were something that
absolutely has to be done then it has to
go down to First principles of okay in
order for people to find out about your
stuff you have to let them know great so
you have to advertise it in some way for
people to find out about it to buy
period no like anybody who has a
business that rule applies now some of
them are you know don't drink some of
them drink a ton some of them watch porn
some of them don't watch porn at all and
also make tons of money and so I
I try to have as few rules as possible
to give myself as much latitude to live
my life
that is
um that's really interesting and I will
no no for sure I'd love that and I think
that's one of the most interesting
things about the era that we're living
in is people get all these different
perspectives
um so for I the thing that we agree on
is that there are physics to everything
so success has physics and if you're not
trying to do something that violates
physics then you're going to be fine and
so how you get there is somewhat
irrelevant yeah
um I I have a feeling speaking to the
people that are caught up in the um
they're they're wasting their time
they're not doing the things that they
need to do they're they're going to need
to create some structure now that
structure may be as simple as what
you're talking about which is because if
if from my frame of reference the way
that I would put thoughts in my own head
about what you're saying is I have a
rule and this is a literal rule of mine
I only do and believe that which moves
me towards my goals which sounds very
akin to what you're talking about it's
like if I do this thing I get this
output uh when I wake up early I've had
better things happen when I'm in shape
better things happen than I put in the
work better things happen
um and ultimately
that's the thing that I'm trying to get
people to Anchor around is their
everything you do as a test your test
will have results it's what I call the
physics of progress so to make progress
one must have a hypothesis know where
you are know where you want to go
understand the obstacle between you and
that come up with a hypothesis about how
to overcome that obstacle run that test
look at the data very frankly don't BS
yourself
and then come up with a more informed
hypothesis and try again over and over
and over and over but ultimately you're
steering by results and I think very
often people either don't know how to in
fact I think there's a few things that
will happen one they don't know how to
conceive of the problem so they don't
understand the obstacle two they don't
know where they're going or three they
cannot break themselves out of the
dopamine cycle they haven't identified
the pain they're moving away from
whatever insecurity they have and so
they end up in that death Loop of
um feeling like they don't have enough
time when in reality they're the same
time as hyper efficient successful
people they just don't use it in the
same fashion
I think Seneca said that we all think we
don't have enough time but it's really
we just
don't use the time we have well
um
and I think I think a lot of it is
around like how we how we choose to pick
our identities to your point earlier
like someone might say like man I'm lazy
I I would say like that's amazing like a
lot of great CEOs are lazy that's fine
um let's use that and so let's just make
working more convenient than the other
thing and then your laziness will take
over or you don't mean just like in
terms of how we can frame the problem
right like is a as an example you're
saying earlier with the iPhone
um like
scientific study anyone can do this you
can decrease your iPhone usage by simply
going to grayscale
like across age groups if you switch
your colors on your screen to grayscale
you'll lose use it 30 less than you
normally would it's like great for most
people that's like an hour plus a day
30 is an hour plus oh my God yeah well I
think it's way I mean I think average
iPhone usage is probably like I mean I
think one hour is like conservative on
that I think it's like like might be
even two
yeah hours it's like there you go found
your time you can make all your content
you get all the stuff you watch a movie
at the time that you have from saving it
but like anyone can do it and so just
like how many how many of these little
things can I make convenient right so
like if you're like if you're trying to
eat healthy right I mean obviously you
guys like we both came from that space
it's like well you just make it more
convenient to eat healthy than need
unhealthy it's like okay we'll remove
all the stuff in your house that you
don't want to be eating make sure all
the snacks you have are protein related
snacks
um you know anything that has calories
in it that's a beverage don't include it
right like just the just simple things
that all of a sudden you're like I'm
hungry and you're like you're like I've
got cucumber slices and uh
and protein chips you're like what do
you think will be more effective that or
dehydrating the horse I think that is
dehydrating the horse interesting that
one's never spoken to me one because
that's not my problem you can fill my
house with snacks and if it either
violates one of my rules which I'm
obsessed with because I created them and
they're designed to give me the results
that I want or they violate my identity
I'm not going to do it yeah uh that's
unique to you I don't I think that's
like a Tom like one percent thing just
me from the outside I think a lot of
people have a hard time following rules
you don't think people will drive 30
minutes to gorge on something I think
they could but they're just as likely to
break a rule and I think it'd be I think
it's it's more likely that they will
break a rule because it takes less
effort to break the rule to themselves
than it does to drive 30 minutes and so
I just want to make it as inconvenient
as possible to do the wrong thing and as
convenient as possible to do the right
thing that will clearly be advantageous
so in no way is what I'm about to say
arguing against that uh so huge love
that total support on board now uh
having said that I have a feeling that
the thing that people are up against and
and I thought a lot about this with food
at Quest I wasn't thinking oh I need to
make this convenient that was part of it
and we certainly were not blind to the
fact that giving somebody a package good
that they could carry in their purse was
going to be really helpful yeah but the
Mantra I kept saying to myself was I
want to make food that people can choose
based on taste yeah and it happens to be
good for them because I think people
will go way out of their way violate
rules all that uh to eat something that
makes them feel the way they want to
feel and if I had to Anchor all of my
fears around people not being able to
accomplish what they want to accomplish
it would all be around the things you're
going to need to do don't feel the way
you want them to feel and because they
don't feel the way you want them to feel
you Veer towards the things that do make
you feel the what the way you want to
feel
now part of that you can accomplish by
reframing but part of it I think is
inescapable you're going to do what
feels good and you're going to avoid
what's painful for the most part okay I
love this so
one of the one of the big misnomers in
my opinion about discipline is that
people who who like some people might
look at me and say that oh Alex is
really disciplined but I actually really
do what I want to do every day and it
just so happens to be work that is
productive and makes money but that
statement that you made earlier that uh
people shoot what do you said you said
people do what makes them feel the way
they want to feel right and then they
you said well oh it's because it's not
making them feel the way they want to
feel and my only addition to that would
have just been yet
just yet and so it's usually because
their Extinction curve is too low
right on the behavior
and so if I go let's say I'm the best
door knocker in the world best door
knocking sales guys and I knock on Five
Doors
I might not get an answer from any of
those five doors and I walk away and I
say I guess door knocking isn't for me
and I might be the LeBron James of door
knocking right
but if the sample size is too small
because my Extinction curve just cuts
off really fast
I'll never know and so that's why it's
like if if you can give the thing the
opportunity to reinforce its own
behavior then it goes from external to
internal we're like video editors for
example like there's people who love I
mean we're going to film school right
um in the beginning you suck at editing
film but then you like make the letters
appear and you get instant feedback and
you're like whoa that was rewarding
right and then you do it again and then
you learn another technique and another
technique another technique and so then
the behavior itself becomes rewarding
and you begin to like work right you
begin liking your work and so I think it
really is that just getting over the
hump in the beginning of knocking on a
thousand doors rather than five and
realizing that it would make sense that
you would suck because you haven't done
it before
um but knowing that if other people have
done it too that there is a reward that
will eventually come and it will
reinforce me just like it has every
other human before me who has done this
and I think just like one of my my core
you know assumptions
um as I like to say
um is that if if somebody else can do
these behaviors I can do these behaviors
and get the same outcome you know
barring external environments or timing
and things like that but you know
assuming that those are the same like
they're not going to sell solar today is
the same as it was last year and if I
see somebody who's number one in solar
and I do the same behaviors as them I
will likely get an outcome that is
decent
and so I that that's what gives me uh
confidence going into a new environment
is modeling somebody and just being like
ignore all of these other things what
are the behaviors how many times this
you know is this person you know how
quickly do they walk from door to door
do they only go to apartment buildings
are they you know like what's their what
is all the steps that they do
operationalizing success
um rather than kind of like the
theorizing that I feel like happens a
lot and I think that's to be fair I
think the reason a lot of people kind of
like some of the content that I put out
from a money making perspective is how
can I operationalize this word right so
like patience for example is when people
throw out a lot but for me defining
patience was helpful which is
figuring out what to do in the meantime
like that's patience
like you're like I'm not patient it's
like no you just need to figure out what
to do in the meantime that's all like
you and I are being patient on all the
Investments that we made last year while
we're having this podcast like they are
happening we're figuring out what to do
in the meantime so we're being patient
and so it's like if patience feels bad
when you're focusing on it but if you're
not focusing on it then patience happens
by default
um like sadness for example like that
was really helped me to find uh figure
out just even defining the word in terms
of operational perspective help me get
out of those phones faster which is um
sadness comes from a lack of options a
perceived lack of options
which is why it feels like hopelessness
but if it comes from a perceived lack of
options then it means that you solve
that with knowledge because it's
perceived lack of options which is an
ignorance problem which means it's
solvable which all of a sudden gives me
something to do so then all of a sudden
I do have an option and you can get out
of the funk and like anxiety is the is
the reverse of that which is I have many
options and I don't know which one to
pick which means I don't have priorities
so like you solve sadness through
knowledge you solve anxiety through
decisions
and so like helping me just spell those
out to myself I'm like I feel anxious
okay that means that I have lots of
paths and I need to make a decision so
which one am I going to decide so I can
get out of this bad feeling if I have
sadness great what do I not know okay
now I have to go figure that out great I
have something to do
and so that like you can I think these
are like mental models around
using emotions to fuel the behaviors
that you want
I didn't want to say a word during that
because I think
um what you're talking about is so I'm
as as you're talking I'm trying to map
[Music]
um
my fear about people not being able to
make the change
um and I the more I think about it the
more I think this boils down to people
feel the way that they don't want to
feel and they don't know how to handle
that yeah and you just without me even
thinking to ask you
um you were going through how to deal
with different emotions and by having a
plan by having a procedure which I think
you're going to call operationalizing
yeah
um then you know what to do oh when I
encounter sadness then I do this when I
encounter anxiety Then I do this and so
it's a very action-oriented plan so I
want to plant a flag in that and then I
want to follow up with how one goes
about operationalizing something okay so
I'm going to lay out a thesis you can
push back or whatever
uh people
one of the the things that you and I
have both said historically that I think
is maybe the most powerful thing we will
ever say and everything after that is
just what you do once you get over that
your life is an exact reflection of your
choices you're not a victim and even if
you are it does not help you to think
that way you have to break through that
and one of the intros to this episode
that I considered was that every day
each of us has to make a choice whether
we are going to play the victim or play
the game and if you're going to play the
game play to win it's the only thing
that makes sense but that is
um negative emotions can be so gnarly
that we need to make it somebody else's
fault that to point all ten fingers back
at us and this is one of the things to
get higher to impact Theory uh you're
going to be asked the question along the
lines of something horrible happens to
you
how many fingers go outwards and how
many fingers point back at you and the
punchline is if all ten are not coming
right back at you it's just
disempowering it doesn't mean that bad
things don't happen nothing you can do
about a tornado et cetera et cetera but
still to realize that you can make
different choices and get a different
outcome
but people don't do that a lot because
to do that if you don't have the right
frame of reference if you haven't leaned
on the right traits if you aren't
building your self-esteem around the
right thing in that moment to say that
it's your fault fault fault is just
emotionally devastating and people have
not operationalized their encounter with
negative emotions and therefore they
will do anything they have to do
completely unconsciously to not feel
that way now if that is uh doing drugs
they'll do drugs if that's drinking
masturbation cheating whatever they will
do all of it but it really boils down to
what's your relationship with your
emotion now to push us farther and to
really
um make clear what I think
I don't think emotions are objectively
real I don't think that people ought to
believe an emotion I think people think
because they feel it it is the right
reaction to objective truth rather than
a subjective reaction to perception sure
and if you can understand that all of
your emotions are a subjective reaction
to perception that you can take control
of that that you can reframe things you
can have a different emotion and now in
that moment instead of doing something
that moves you away from your goals you
can replace it with something that moves
you towards your goals okay so that's my
thesis as as I really think about
boiling it down to what messes people up
it's that if I'm right about that how do
you operationalize anything like what
does that mean because I have a feeling
the thing that makes you phenomenal is
the ability to operationalize everything
so if I love this the conversation just
a side note
um
so in my opinion a lot of things even
huge Apartments practices in business
and medicine and everything come down to
learning and communication
and so
let's define terms so learning is same
condition new Behavior
so to the point I felt sad last time I
learned this new thing from this podcast
on impact Theory which is okay if I feel
sad then it means that I don't see an
option which means I need to get more
education or knowledge on the subject so
that I can figure out what to do at
least deciding that I need to learn more
gives me the next step that I need to do
and boom I'm not sad and so you've been
sad before and then it took you five
days to get out of it and you're sad now
and it takes you five minutes to get out
of it same condition new Behavior so you
learned
and so if we go one degree move from
that I'm going to circle back to the
original point
if we think about intelligence right
um like what is intelligence as I Define
it from an operational perspective it's
rate of learning right so somebody who
learns really slowly is less intelligent
someone who learns really quickly is
more intelligent but that means that
intelligence is just a rate it's a
measurement of how quickly you change
your behavior in the same condition and
so if you continue to listen to podcasts
and you're wake up in the same exact
conditions every day and your behavior
does not change it means you learned
nothing which means you are not as smart
as you think you are
but it also means that you can influence
and have a direct influence on your
intelligence by increasing or decreasing
the time it takes you to actually act on
the knowledge you have when the same
condition presents itself and so for me
that's incredibly empowering because
it's like I can be smarter by simply
hearing what this person says getting
the same condition and then immediately
changing my behavior wow that's cool
and so that then like from the fingers
perspective it's like okay all 10
fingers are on me of how I can influence
my own surroundings and do the things
that I want to do
um so to to Circle back to the original
question I think which I probably
dovetail a little bit was
can you repeat it one more time how do
you operationalize things what does that
mean
so okay so it's breaking down what does
this word mean from a behavior
perspective
so it's it's it's it's really hard like
I think the reason that so many people
are confused and they have a hard time
remembering things and understanding
complex topics is because they have lots
of words in their heads that they have
not defined I really mean like I I truly
believe that which is why every book
that I have begins with the definition
of terms just like this is what an offer
is this is what a lead is right these
are these are what this means right
um and until you have that you're just
you're basically making face noise right
like if I say leads and you perceive
that as something different then we
can't actually have a conversation
because we're not talking about the same
thing and so a lot of people have a lot
of words they've heard other people say
that they not along to and some people
are like makes sense and they say yes
but when someone says does that make
sense we have been trained as humans to
nod and say Yes it doesn't mean it makes
sense it means that when we have that
cue that's the behavior we do right
because we know that we get punished
when we say no because then it becomes
all this big thing and then you know you
dovetail into all these other
conversations and you get punished for
it right and so you learn what's
reinforced and most people say makes
sense and then you say which means nod
your head when I say this and you're
like I nod my head great and then you
move on and so I think that's why a lot
of people don't learn because they
actually don't know what the words mean
and so to operationalize something it is
simply going back down to
when I say I'm confident what does that
mean it's not a feeling it's not a what
other people say about you like none of
that is measurable like how much like
what is measurable it's a percentage of
likelihood that what I say will happen
will happen period that's what it is now
what you'll also find is that there are
a lot of words that mean the same thing
and that doesn't mean that the the
concept wrong is just the fact that
English or whatever language you learn
usually has a Melting Pot of like well
this is the version of the Nordic word
and this is the version of the Hindi
word and this is the version of the
French word and they're all in the
Lexicon but most of them more or less
mean the same thing and so getting away
from words meaning what the the
dictionary tells us it means and just
say what does it mean to me in terms of
what I can do with it then I think makes
navigating life a lot simpler because
the only thing we can control is our
behavior and so if we Define the words
in terms of what we do about it then
these all become things that we can
control and
and can change our lives with
yeah okay that I think is super
important
um
one of the things that that changed my
life and the easiest way to explain it
is how it manifested in my marriage was
to Define terms and because what Lisa
and I were realizing is we're saying the
same words but we don't mean the same
thing totally and that's creating a lot
of confusion now as a leader in a
business this becomes problematic often
because you will say something that to
you is self-evident exactly what it
means people do the it doesn't make
sense yeah not and
um they do that a lot and So Lisa and I
started defining really simple words
like what when you say you promise what
does that mean when you say something's
important what does that mean yeah and
so like in our marriage if we use the
word important it means stop whatever
you're doing I don't care if you're with
the president of the United States you
will immediately get up leave that and
deal with this thing because it's
important so if it is Meaningful but not
important then fair enough it's
meaningful but I'm in the middle of
something I'll get to it later doesn't
mean that it's you know not something
that needs to be addressed but it isn't
important
cool now we have a shared lexicon yeah
um and I think that
going back to my thesis around emotions
emotions are the subconscious's way of
communicating to the conscious mind so
when you think about and this isn't I
mean this is me making things up this is
me connecting dots that Behavioral
Science has made abundantly clear but I
am admittedly connecting dots but uh
Lisa Feldman Barrett wrote a whole book
on this called how emotions are made so
this is not me just shooting from the
hip but I'm putting my own words to it
um
the the way that you feel is the
subconscious mind which can process
information uh faster and faster as they
say so it's a a much larger number of
data points processed much quicker but
when you bring it into the conscious
mind you're going to think either in
images or in words most people probably
think primarily in words and so it
really Narrows down your ability to deal
with a lot of information and because
emotions are coming from the limbic
brain which we had before we had the
higher level cognition that humans have
that other animals don't have you're
going to be in a situation where oh
snake and you just jump you just have
the emotion and you mo