Kind: captions
Language: en
I look at your two books and and I'm
literally just paraphrasing from what
you said that they're basically the yin
and yang so you have Chaos on one hand
and you have order on the other both
will tend towards tyranny and as far as
I can tell and this is why I do not
understand why people are pushing back
on you why there's so much bizarre
backlash is the moral of your story is
hey everybody guess what you you need to
find this balance between the two if you
only exist in the creative potential it
ends up being all chaos all the time if
you only exist in the conservatism the
things that are already there and
working they will tend towards tyranny
solidify and cease to be useful and die
and so now it's this game and you do
this brilliant explanation of what
happens in a city that shows exactly
this with artists and if you can walk us
through that and tell me if if the
identity of the artist if that's what
you're trying to get at with identity
because I I'm understanding what you're
saying in terms of okay in that moment
we're negotiating but there's a grander
sense of who we become that is seems to
me to be a negotiation with the world so
collectively everybody else but also a
negotiation with how I want to feel
about myself when I'm alone and the
things that I think are right the things
that I think are wrong okay well okay
well that's very complicated so I'll
walk it through so as you pointed out
I'm going to hold up these books so this
is the new book beyond order and it does
concentrate on pathologies of structure
and the previous book which is 12 rules
for life an antidote to chaos and the
the underlying presupposition there is
that in our phenomenological landscape
so that's the world as we experience it
complete with emotions and motivations
and dreams and so the full range of
Human Experience including the
subjective and the objective let's say
can broadly be broken into two domains
and one is the domain of things that are
beyond our grasp and reach and that's
the unknown the unknown emerges when the
unknown emerges merges you tend to
experience anxiety and then there's the
the known and I defined the known very
specifically and and very carefully the
known is the place you are when what
you're doing produces the results you
want and I say want because that brings
motivation and emotion into the game so
you're motivated to pursue something you
pursue it and what you want happens not
only do you get what you want but you
get validation for the structure that
governs your perceptions and your
actions now if you you know imagine that
you're um you know you're lonely and you
approach a young woman in a in a social
situation um attempting to make some
contact with her um you you want to
alleviate your loneliness and so you
hope you make a good impression and you
tell a joke let's say in a relatively
awkward Manner and you get rebuffed then
you feel you you you're no longer where
you control control you're no longer
where you exercise control and that
brings up all sorts of specters
immediately it's like well why were you
rebuffed well maybe all women are uh to
be despised that's one Theory maybe
there's something deeply wrong with you
maybe you're having an off day maybe it
wasn't a very good joke and so when you
don't get what you want then a landscape
of question emerge questions emerge and
those questions can resonate through
different levels of your identity from
the trivial oh I told the joke wrong to
the profound there's nothing desirable
about me and I'll be alone for the rest
of my life now you asked about identity
and I used the example of a child's game
but I could go through an identity so I
do this particularly in maps of meaning
and so for example let's say I'm sitting
typing okay we could decompose my
identity so at the highest level of
resolution I'm moving my
fingers and so that could be my identity
I'm the thing that moves its fingers and
then slightly at a slightly broader
level than that I'm typing words and at
a broader level I'm typing phrases and
thinking them up and then sentences and
then paragraphs and then chapters and
then let's say full papers or books that
that's that's a productive unit so I'm
the author of a book or the author of a
paper that's an identity but then that's
nested inside for me it would be nested
inside being a clinical psychologist
being a professor being a good citizen
and then that's nested in some inside
something that's even broader than that
and I would say that that's nested
inside a a cultural heroism and I don't
mean that specific to me I mean that for
everyone that's the outermost level
whether you're playing out the role of
hero or adversary say that's that's the
highest possible level of identity
that's the level at which fundamental
morality is adjudicated and there is
isn't really anything beyond outside
that is it's beyond us it's the
Transcendent itself and you're all of
those at at any one time you're all of
those levels of identity but those are
all practical right so those are the
roles that you're playing in the world
all of those are a consequence of who
you are but in interplay like in this
situation with the child all of that's
negotiated with other
people and so if you have a functional
identity you see if you have a
functional identity when you act it out
in the world then you get what you want
and
need and if an identity doesn't do that
well then you should you either retool
your identity or you retool the
world your conception of the world well
if you're retooling your conception of
the world then you're retooling yourself
no you can actually I mean what a
revolutionary does is try to bring the
world into a alignment lit CH world yes
literally well and we all do that to
some degree because we are practical
Engineers you know I mean not only do we
perceive the world but we also interact
with it so that it does manifest itself
in accordance with our desires there's
limits obviously to how far you can go
or how far you should go with that you
know and um what are the limits well
there's practical limits nature won't do
what you want it to unless you're very
sophisticated in your in your
application of your knowledge and other
people will
object so now you might say well you
should Forge forward regardless of their
objection and you know there are
circumstances under which that's true
but generally speaking that's not a very
good idea it certainly doesn't make you
popular as a child and so that brings up
one other issue I would also say and
this I developed this idea quite a a bit
in the new
book you go from egocentrism as a child
you have to go through this period where
you're
socialized as a Child and Adolescent and
that really means that you allow your
identity to be molded and shaped by the
group and you know you think about how
important peers friends and peers are to
children and adolescen you know your
mother will say uh when you're a
teenager well if Johnny jumped off the
bridge would you too
and you say well no but the real answer
is well probably if all your friends are
there taunting you you would in fact
jump off the bridge and not only that
generally speaking you
should because it's your duty it's your
developmental Duty as a child and a
teenager to take
your your isolated self and turn it into
a a functioning social
unit now you could say well do Peterson
wants everybody to be a functional
social unit a robot you know a cog in
the wheel and and I would say well that
that isn't where development
stops it has to go through that period
before you can emerge as a as a genuine
individual which means you have to know
the rules of the game before you can
break them but not being able to abide
by the rules is not anything like being
a genuine creative individual those are
not the same thing and there's plent of
attempt to confuse the two things
because it's much better if you can't
follow the rules to view yourself as a
uh avantgard revolutionary than as a
failure and it's not like I don't know
that that social molding
crushes obviously it crushes and
everyone feels that these are
existential problems everyone deals with
the tyranny of culture and the fact that
it does want you to be a certain way and
not other ways and those ways might not
be in keeping with your with your the
deepest elements of your nature well
tough luck for you you because you're
also the beneficiary of culture and so
you have to offer it your pound of Flesh
now you shouldn't do that at the expense
of your soul but you shouldn't stay an
immature child other
either and so this this notion of
identity that we're being fed is very
very it's very thin what are we being
fed be very
specific well there is the idea for
example that your identity is whatever
you say it is and that everyone else has
to go along with that no that isn't how
it works partly
because no one even knows how to go
along with it like let's say just for
example that you're a gender
non-binary
okay what am I supposed to
do about that man I don't know I hardly
know what to do if the rules are already
there so let's say I grow up I want to
being a heterosexual male I want to find
a woman fall in love with her raise a
family have children have grandchildren
that's a game I know the rules to it not
well because everyone's a failure at
that you know it's very difficult but at
least you kind of know what the the goal
is and so does the person you're with
well you leap out of that which is
already terribly difficult you leap out
of that into completely unknown
territory saying um uh that I'm
presenting yourself as something other
than those categories leaves everyone
around you and you completely bereft of
Direction let me put it in words that I
get from um your material so what I
heard you just say tell me if I'm wrong
is part of the negotiation that we do
from the time we are little kids and
figuring out that play we're up on the
bridge we jump maybe because we want to
you know fit in with our peer group um
it there is a sense of order to that now
you've been very careful and it will
drive me crazy if people respond to this
interview as if you have not already
Illustrated that it is the balance
between two opposing forces but so we
need enough order so that somebody can
find their way through the world and
that many I think a big part of the
reason that your work has resonated so
profoundly with people is
excuse me they are left in a world where
they don't know how to move forward in a
way that serves them spiritually
practically as well for sure and so hey
everybody both of those both of those
practically Shades into spiritually As
you move up into the broader reaches of
identity you know and look this this see
one of the things I really laid this out
in maps of meaning it took me a long
time to understand that belief regulated
emotion
so what happens is that if you act out
your identity if you act out your
beliefs in the world and what you want
doesn't happen what happens is that your
body defaults into emergency preparation
for action and the reason for that is
you've wandered too far away from the
campfire and now you're in the forest
and maybe you're naked and so what do
you do then and the answer is well you
don't know what to do so what do you do
when you don't want know what to do and
the answer is you prepare to do
everything and the problem with that is
that it's unbelievably draining
psychophysiologically like it hurts you
and there there's there's an immense
physiological literature
detailing the the cost of of of exactly
that kind of
response and so people need people and
animals they people stay where what they
do has the results they want that's
partly why you want to be around people
who share your cultural presuppositions
is because you know that for example
even in small ways let's say you're a
country music
afficionado and you're hanging around
with your cowboy hated buddies and you
throw on a tape and everyone says great
Tunes man and you you know you're happy
about that but you know you throw on a
piece by chowski and you're you're in a
different subculture and who the hell
are you and people the people in your
group will say man who listens to music
music like that and like that's a
trivial example in some sense but I I
believe it's one that everyone can
resonate to we like we it's very hard on
us not to be where we know what we know
that what we want is going to happen we
hate that we hate that and no wonder so
and then you know there are there are
varying degrees of that obviously you
can really be where you don't know
what's going to happen or you can only
be there to some degree but by and
large by and large we're conservative
creatures even if we're liberal in
temperament there's not we can't
tolerate that much
uncertainty and there you might ask well
why and the answer is well because you
can be hurt pain you can be damaged you
can become intolerably anxious and you
can die so it's no wonder you're
sensitive or very sensitive to negative
emotion and so our identities re
functional identity regulates your
emotion but you do that in concert with
other people in the first chapter of the
new book beyond order the rule is uh
don't casually denigrate social
institutions or creative achievement
that's that balance again um I make the
case that most of your
sanity is socially
distributed and what I mean by that is
well let's say that you know how to
behave you're well socialized you can
play with others
now I said already in this conversation
if you didn't learn to play with others
between the time you were two and four
you will never
learn and psychologists have beat their
heads against the wall trying to
rehabilitate antisocial children they
can't do it after the age of four is
that because areas of the brain just
don't
develop well it seems to be partly
because the kids fall farther and
farther behind so let's say you make the
leap from egocentric dependence on your
mother two and three to immersion in a
peer group well then the then you you
pick peers that are at your same
developmental level and you chase each
other up the developmental ladder and
the longer you're out of that the
farther you fall behind and so you know
kids five-year-old kids might come
across another 5-year-old kid who tends
to cry too much if they don't get their
way and they'll say we don't want to
play with the baby and what they're
saying is we have to find someone who's
at our developmental level shares our
developmental Horizon so that we can
mutually scaffold our further
development now they're not going to say
that obviously but that's the situation
and kids test each other out when they
first meet so do adults game game game
game can you play are you playing at the
same level as me I'm playing my game at
the level that will further my
development can you play along with me
if not well maybe you're lower in status
and I can pull you up as a mentor maybe
you're higher in status and I can learn
from you but if you're a peer we can
play together anyways if you're
acceptable to your
peers and you behave well they'll accept
you and then they tell you all the time
if you're acting appropriately you know
if your jokes are funny if you're
dominating the conversation if you're
bringing something of value to the table
and all you have to do is pay attention
to the social cues and you'll keep
yourself
regulated okay I want to dive in here
and I'm going to see if I'm track in all
of this because I'm I'm putting this in
a larger context of this really matters
and it applies directly to something
that's happening in the world it seems
to me that you don't dive into things
unless they have real relevance so is it
fair to Define identity
as the self narrative that emerges from
an nearly infinite number of
interactions with other people and
nature
itself well I I would say yes but that
gets to the point it's so broad it's
almost it it starts to lack definition
so I can take it finer than that I I am
trying to sort of find the borders and
then then then I will work in okay so if
we're if we still remain true at that
point um then having in the book you
walk through a lot of some of the people
that you've done psycho analysis with
and so we get a lot of insights into the
actual people that you're dealing with
and how people can begin to tell
themselves a narrative that is very
dysfunctional and you help them out I
don't want to say easily because that
that sounds like it cheapens it but
pretty straightforward in helping them
reframe and framing is something I'm
obsessed with and so our identity is
based on this it's a self-narrative that
we tell ourselves based on the
interactions we have with other people
and nature such that we begin to
solidify a set of behaviors that make
sense for us based on the goals that we
want to achieve and where we're trying
to go am I still good yes well you
improved your definition by adding the
behavioral element because I would say
the fundamental element of identity is
what you act out on top of that there's
the story that you tell do I have to be
consciously aware of it well you're
consciously aware of some of it not of
other elements of it you can't be
consciously aware of everything you do
and does do conscious and unconscious
alike make up my identity as you define
it your identity is the story you tell
about your actions in the world but it's
also your actions in the
world okay
now why does my identity and I assume as
I understand it why does my identity as
I understand it matter to the course of
my
life because it's the it's the structure
of the it's it's the structure from
which the plans that you implement in
the world
originates and you're always acting in
the world you have problems to solve all
the time
and you have to solve you have you have
to solve there's all sorts of problems
you have to solve to stay alive and you
have to solve them for today but you
have to solve them in a way that works
for today that doesn't screw up tomorrow
too bad and leaves next week intact and
next month and next year and so there's
a Continuum of you so that's another see
that's the other reason why your
identity can't just be you because or
how you feel right now because you're
not only who you are right now and how
you feel right now you're this strange
entity that exists right now but that
already existed in the past and that is
going to repeat itself into the future
and so you're actually a community of
individuals stretched out across time
and the plans that you implement have to
be beneficial for that entire community
of individuals and it's going to be the
case that there isn't much difference
between you acting properly with regards
to your extended temporal self and you
acting properly in relationship to other
people that's interesting so you're
stuck with Society just because you know
that there's a future you're stuck with
Society even if you're
solipsistic right if you think you're
the only conscious Consciousness that
there is there's still the fact that you
have duration across time and that you
know you have to take into
account what the consequence for your
actions is going to be on the
50-year-old Tom and the 80-year-old Tom
people have this innate drive to control
the environment themselves whatever but
they want to to be in control and there
if you aren't able
to INF full view of everybody out
compete you still have this drive for
control and then people go underground
it's the whole theme of the 48 Laws of
Power correct what I wrote about in the
preface to it yeah um the thing about n
because you know he's my he's my idol
he's really Oh's why do people have such
a dark view of him I don't know him well
enough to understand why all of my books
I was reading him when I was 16 17 years
old and often times what happens in your
life people that you read when you were
that age and you're now I'm now in my
60s I'm sorry to say wow and and
congratulations by the way thank you uh
46 seems like a kid um you know know
things that I read when I was 18 that I
don't know I don't like anymore ni is
like a through line I'll never get bored
with him I'll never Tire with him he's
just absolutely the greatest um but his
will to power is something that got
misunderstood it's like it's it's not
necessarily what you think it is it's
Dev and the concept of M or power in
nature is it's controll it's more like
expansion that's what the word really
means and he takes it down to a
biological level that every organism
wants to expand its Circle wants to
expand its environment wants to have
more mobility in the world that it's in
right so it's a native biological need
that all creatures have for expanding
themselves for having more influence so
what it means for a human is to have
more power and more influence and able
to move in Greater circles to have more
control yes control is part of it okay
but people when they have this sort of
negative view of power damn it that
makes me so angry it triggers all of my
buttons I'm sorry to say because I I am
an emotional creature I have to admit
because everything is about power right
the idea that you don't want power that
you say oh I'm not interested in that
I'm I'm I'm All About truth and Justice
and what's good for Humanity that's a
form of power I'm sorry to say you are
seeking power you are seeking power over
other people you know some of the most
heinous crimes have been committed by
people who think they're doing good for
others right okay but you want power
right and I look at academics who have
these very lengthy very powerful
arguments about the world etc etc it's
all about power they don't want to admit
it they want to admit it's just about
ideas it's just about intellect it's
about you know the realm of of of
exchanging ideas [ __ ] it's about
power you want the sense of expansion
you want people to love you you want you
love that feeling that what you're doing
is influencing others that You' have hit
the right
answer everything you do the everything
you breathe in is a desire for power is
a desire for
expansion look in the mirror and admit
it and let's get away from the negative
connotations that we have with it yes
power can be used for bad purposes but
as Malcolm X said um you know absolute
power corrupts but powerlessness
corrupts even more so the feeling that
you don't have any power that's so
important so the feeling that you don't
have any power is even more corruptive
because it makes you passive aggressive
it turns you into these Warriors who
think they're doing something and you're
not even aware of what you're really
after so that was the whole point of the
48 Laws of Power it was an inflection
moment in our culture and our history
where I was getting really upset with
all of the political correctness and all
of the squishy self-help books out there
right and trying to appeal to our good
side and etc etc and things like
ambition or power were ugly words man I
hated that I thought it was so
hypocritical because my experience in
Hollywood for instance where I dealt
with a lot of film directors and
powerful people is they would project
this image of being extremely liberal
and for all the good causes but they
were wanted power they really wanted
power and they would often treat people
in a poor fashion despite being for all
the great causes and the hypocrisy just
really rankled me and that's sort of why
I wrote the 48 Laws of Power to expose
that but I want people to
admit you were saying look at yourself
that you have this desire for power it
can twist you you can you can look for
it in wrong ways most definitely but at
least come to Jesus come to Muhammad and
admit that that's who you are that
that's what's motivating you in your
behavior and from there we can start
seeing well maybe there more
constructive forms of power that I can
go after you can reboot your life your
health even your career anything you
want all you need is discipline I can
teach you the tactics that I learned
while growing a billion- Dollar business
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today it's so interesting because when I
was maybe 25 something like that 26
maybe I bought the domain seeking power
oh and I 20 years ago yeah very long
time ago so a couple years after my book
came out but I'm not saying there was
any unfortunately I had not read it yet
I wish I had you would have saved me a
lot of suffering but um I that felt true
to who I was I was like I come seeking
power and it was it felt so light and so
expansive and so positive so it's weird
to me that the word power is taken on
like these dark evil
connotations but I was like I want to
get better I want to get more powerful
and my whole youth I had felt so weak
and getting into business I had finally
encountered the idea that you could get
better than other people you could
outperform them and in outperforming
them you could transform your life and
you could do things that other people
couldn't do I wish unfortunately Kobe
Bryant didn't exist back then in any way
that I was aware of anyway uh and he has
this whole idea of booze don't block
dunks and that you can get so good at
something that no matter how much people
hate you want to stop you whatever you
can outplay them and you can still dunk
over them and I was like oh my God like
this is so amazing so all I have to do
is get good at things now to your point
if you're using that for evil I've got
no time for that but in your own life if
it's you know whether in business if you
don't acknowledge that it's a
competition you're going to get eaten
alive so recognizing okay like this is a
competition I'm not out to hurt other
people but I absolutely how to
outperform them and life became way more
fun when I realized oh I can come
seeking power I can sit at somebody's
feet and learn from them and want to
grow more powerful and that's why like
this whole moment that we're living
through now feels like the wrong way to
go about the change that people want to
see in the world CU it's like if you own
okay I I want this outcome and to get
that outcome I need to Garner a set of
skills I need to get better at my
performance and then I can do it when
it's out in the open and you're taking
personal responsibility in fact here's
the the easiest way to sum it
up as Gary ve says there are two ways to
build the tallest building in town you
can knock everybody else's building down
or you can build a building that's
taller than theirs great and if you're
spending time knocking people's
buildings down which is the energy I
feel coming off of a lot of people
that's not interesting to me and people
do it in the name of oh no no no like
they were just their building violated
some invisible code you know where that
comes from it comes from
Envy Envy is a huge Mo motive motivator
of people's behavior now so the drive to
bring other people down is is really
truly motivated by feelings of Envy
inferiority that other people are better
than you are so it's it's a leveling
process that's going down where we want
to bring everybody down to the same
level nobody's excellent nobody's
accomplished anything or they just
accomplish great things because they had
money or because their parents sent them
to Yale or Dartmouth or because you know
they had all of this privilege you know
we're all you know so it's like bringing
everyone down but I think that it's Envy
is is is the root cause of it so going
back to the where we started that people
are bored they feel like they're wasting
their life but you were saying you know
wherever you go there you are that this
is an internal problem you have to
master your
emotions how do you begin to tile that
together for somebody that wants out of
that they want to love their life and
feel like they're making the most of it
you talked about like we actually have
the ability to get a drug-like effect by
looking Inward and and what is it and
improving ourselves and just falling in
love being honest about what we actually
like and pursuing it like is is that an
act of the will to
expansion what what's driving that well
um you know there are many ways to look
at that it's um but in Mastery I I my
way of describing it is a very high form
of fulfillment because I like to think
of fulfillment over happiness happiness
seems like a kind of an immediate thing
where you know getting some kind of
stimulation or drinking whiskey will
make you happy but it won't make you
fulfilled fulfilling fulfillment is a
longer lasting emotion it comes from wow
I spent two years doing that I made what
I went out set out to create
I feel fulfilled it's a wonderful
feeling it's the greatest high in the
world I think okay so my one Avenue to
get towards what you're saying is
through your work now I'm not saying
it's everything because I understand
relationships and people and children
all these things are very important okay
but I'm looking at through your work to
reach a level of feeling of that sense
of power and expansion and fulfilled and
when you you have that feeling you don't
want to hurt other people you don't
there's no need for it there's no need
to push people around for no reason you
feel comfortable with yourself all right
so the number one thing the most
important thing is to figure out the
path towards that kind of fulfillment
through your work or through your career
right now some people don't like that
I've been criticized before I went once
and gave a talk at Stanford and they
were thinking that that was just so
elitist like fulfillment well through
your work like this one woman said my
father was a truck driver his whole life
are you saying that he wasn't fulfilled
you know that kind of criticism what did
you say to that I said well that's
actually very elitist on your part
you're saying that that's all your
father was ever um capable of achieving
maybe you know if he was happy being a
truck driver if that excited him if
that's what he was destined to create if
he felt comfortable with that fine I
have no problem but a lot of people in
very working class jobs aren't
necessarily so happy their lives are
full of routine there's no kind of
intellectual challenge to it and if you
know anything about the human animal and
the human brain we're vation our brains
are voracious we need constant
stimulation so if you're driving a truck
all day that's all you have if that's
fulfilling for you maybe yes being a
good driver and getting there on time
and deliv ing Goods maybe that isn't
road to fulfillment but maybe your
father was frustrated maybe he was
drinking or something maybe it didn't
really fulfill him so how can you say
that people just should just settle for
what they have right because a lot of
people aren't happy and they may think
they're happy they may kind of they may
kind of deceive themselves but deep down
inside they're frustrated and that's why
they turn to having Affairs that's why
they turn to alcohol that's why they
turn to drugs that's why they turn to
addictions etc etc etc there are all
kinds of signs of that so I'm not
necessarily assuming that your father
was fulfilled by his truck driving I
could be that's how I answered her she
wasn't happy with that okay anyway um so
some people criticize this notion of
work but no we are animals that love to
make things somebody wants to find us is
homop Faber the animal that likes to
build things to make things that's our
hands we became Power powerful through
making tools Etc also by being social
animals don't get me wrong but we are
creatures that are designed to make
things to build things to create right
and I don't I'm not an elitist I think
every human being on the planet has that
desire right they wanted that
fulfillment and I don't care if they're
born poor and they're poverished or
they're homeless they still have that
need and they have that capacity to
become a master in what they do so the
most important thing in life is to
figure out what is your path what is the
kind of work that will bring you that
sense of fulfillment okay so some people
it's being an entrepreneur it's being in
business other people it's the Arts or
It's Entertainment of some sort other
people it's writing it's words it's
literature other people it's the body
it's Sports it's dance it's whatever I
don't care I don't have a hierarchy I
don't say writing books is better than
building wood things wood things with
your hands it's all the same to me right
it's all a form of a skill it all can
lead to Mastery but you have to find out
what that is and then you have to build
towards it and when you reach that point
let's just look at the end point so in
your 20s which is the most important
part of your life I think we really yeah
I don't want to derail but okay we
should come back to that it's where
you're discovering yourself it's where
all the seeds are planted for what's
going to happen to you of course they're
planted in your earliest years don't get
me wrong but I do think that's the most
critical phase right you're exploring
you're trying things out you're
experimenting with different U careers
Etc you're gaining skills because you're
learning you like you said you wanted to
learn right and then you're
3233 and you start a podcast a website
your own business Etc and maybe it fails
but you're excited it's your own and
then you learn from it and then you
create something even better man it's
like the greatest feeling in the world
you don't need anything else you know
you've accomplish something you set a
goal and you reached it it is to me a
feeling of high so when I write a
book it's painful there's a lot of pain
involved stress etc etc but man there's
nothing in the world I would give up I
even had a stroke probably because of
that I wouldn't give up any of that for
that sense of
I could look back I wrote that book I
can die tomorrow and I'm happy I did
what I thought I needed to do I reached
not all of my potential but a good
portion of my potential to me that is if
everybody had that open to them then I
think we would live in a much better
world if we live if people knew that as
a value and went towards it and I think
the greatest periods in history the kind
of the golden ear
we can look at Athens we can look at
Renaissance Italy we could look at the
1920s in America the jazzer and all the
great cultural movements pick your
whatever period you like some people
like the 60s some people hate the 60s I
don't care whatever you think is a
golden era they era of richness of
diversity of all kinds of creative
people doing all kinds of interesting
things it's an openness and everyone is
experimenting and that this kind of
change that's brewing and EXP
experimentation that's to me is a high
point of human culture and it comes from
more and more individuals doing taking
this path that I'm talking about do you
have a math equation for lack of a
better word for
fulfillment how would that be a plus b
yeah kind of so here I think that so I
agree with you so violently I want to
bite through the table uh so I might not
be the best use of my teeth uh so I have
a rough formula of what I think leads to
fulfillment I think about this a lot so
I'm always looking for somebody that can
help me refine but I think it goes like
this it has to be hard and there's
reasons for this from an evolutionary
standpoint but it has to be hard it has
to be something that you get more energy
from than it takes so it's something
that you inherently enjoy and it has to
be something that allows you to
transform your potential into skill set
and that skill set has to be something
that serves you and and the group if you
do all of that you will be fulfilled if
any one of those pieces are missing it's
really hard it's something you love
you're improving your skill set but it
only serves you you won't be fulfilled
if all of it but it only serves a group
and not you you won't be fulfilled it it
seems to me that it has to have all of
those
elements yeah I mean I think there are
people unfortunately who get that
fulfillment without the group part do
you do you think they're actually
fulfilled
yeah I mean um if you like artists who
write to do some kind of great art but
they're not necessarily the best people
in the world you know it might be a
total dick but if there are which I
think is its own punishment PS but they
may find fulfillment in their art if
they get feedback from the group the
group is moved it's
Sublime you know and so their art
creates the desired feeling in that
person they have contributed to the
group in my estimation but if that same
artist made art and nobody gave a [ __ ]
about it I don't think they would feel
fulfilled well you know I don't want to
split hairs with you because you're
largely correct but I do I can't think
of examples of people who were ignored
in their lifetime and it was painful but
they knew they were right they knew they
had created something brilliant they
knew they had created some invention and
it was ignored and nobody cared and
nobody liked them think about Tesla
Nicola Tesla yeah he was pretty
miserable yeah so despite all this
incred [ __ ] being out of step with your
time is rough you are the shout and the
echo so even though when Einstein was
asked what's it like to be the most
brilliant man alive he said I don't know
you'll have to ask Nicola Tesla despite
that Tesla died very unhappy by all
accounts I obviously did not know him
certainly alone and broke and so there
was some was missing he could never get
I'm I am definitely psychoanalyzing
somebody I have no right to
but I have a gut instinct that because
he could not figure out the echo part of
doing something in a way where people
reflected back that yes this is
amazingly valuable that even though now
we all reap the benefits was very little
consolation I know I can't think of it
because my mind is slowing down but I
was talking recently uh with my wife
about artists and compos Etc who had no
success in life she going really yeah
never sold any books that music was
ignored but my research of them they
they had just in the work itself in the
absorption of the Mind in composing This
brilliant thing or in writing this thing
they had that
flow yes so the pain is definitely there
I'm not arguing against you because they
said you might be right I mean I'm
utterly FAS splitting hairs but the the
thing is is the sense of flow because
what happens is what makes you miserable
is your self-absorption and in in many
ways right the worst form of therapy is
to sit there and talk about your
problems the best form of therapy is to
get outside of yourself brother the
people are going to be like the record
just skipped for a lot of people go back
the worst form of therapy is talk
therapy what what yeah yeah I well I
mean maybe not the worst but it's not to
me the most productive therapy to just
talk about your problems really why
because it's like it's like accentuating
your self-absorption
right whereas what you need is to get
outside of yourself not into all of your
your problems now of course I'm I'm
contradicting myself because I talked
about introspection that's a different
thing we're not introspecting about my
problems what my parents did to me more
and more oh I'm so miserable blah blah
blah I'm sure there are forms of talking
therapy that are good so I shouldn't
generalize that but what I think I don't
know something feels intuitively right
about this yeah well I just wrote sorry
I keep doing that about um this man
people won't have heard of him he's he's
a a
Russian Mystic whatever you want to call
him GF who had these exercises name but
I don't know um and one thing he taught
his students was to not vent your
unpleasant emotions so he had this
exercise called
self-observation where you to go observe
yourself like you did in the most
deepest way not just your thoughts but
about your body and how
your body and your mind interact in this
insane continual blend there's no
separation so one kind of thought will
affect your body but a feeling in your
gut will affect your thinking your all
this observe yourself observe yourself
observe yourself and he said you will
discover in observing yourself that most
of your thoughts revolve around
unpleasant emotions it's a very bad
thing to realize but it's true I use the
number 95% but I I as I said I'm pulling
it out of you know what again um okay so
most of it is dealing with frustration
resentment anger bitterness etc etc etc
okay and he said look at those emotions
see them do not judge them do not say
they're bad or good or whatever and
don't ever talk about them don't vent
them to people you can look at them but
don't talk about them and the people who
experience it go whoa by not talking
about them they start time what they
started to go away I didn't really feel
them because I never expressed them so
expressing them was kind of what makes
them stronger and more embedded inside
of you I feel like we're doing that
culturally right now yes most definitely
I mean
look what is the Crux of the problem in
people today if I had to summarize it or
and I don't mean people include myself
in them us cuz I'm a human being as well
as far as I know I've heard it's that
we're
self-absorbed right I think that's the
root cause of so many of our issues
right because we are creatures that are
actually built for empathy for actually
putting our minds into other things into
people into animals into solving
problems into our work that's who we are
and we've turned that around where all
of that voracious brain energy that we
have as I said I just wrote a chapter on
the brain and it's just insanely
powerful instrument that is so complex
people say it's the most complex piece
of matter in the universe right it's so
powerful and when you turn it inward it
just eats Us Alive inside it's like a
bacteria eating us from within as
opposed to exteriorizing it into work
into creating things into building
things into empathy into working with
other people and if we're getting all
ranty and outraged about Justice etc etc
which you really need to do is to get
outside of that and out helping other
people genuinely helping them right if
your cause is and it's my cause as well
as the environment which I believe EXT a
lot where my charity goes to then
ranting in complaining online and making
people feel bad is useless go out and
start a movement create something do
something you'll feel so much better
about yourself and you'll be
contributing it but what we don't need
is more of that self-absorption it's
like a centri centripetal force that's
drawing us further and further and
further in my problems my parents my
education my brother and sister my
wife more and more inward more problems
it gets deeper and deeper moreas erasin
inside of ourselves right you want to
get out of yourself so momento more is
is this idea just means remember death
or remember your immortality and I I
think it's probably it's it's not only
one of the most powerful themes in all
of ancient philosophy specifically
stoicism but in basically all of ancient
art as well like the most beautiful
painting painters used to paint pictures
of skulls and dancing skeletons and and
or or decaying bodies and and and so
this imagery of the the inevitable Decay
the entropy of life is this Timeless
theme that basically goes all the way up
to Modern Art and then it's just like
weird ass shapes and stuff we like so
stopped using art as a tool to remind us
of human Primal things and started using
it as a status symbol you know what I
mean and and so what the stoics are so
much of meditations and uh and and
senica's writing is is just talking
about how easy it is to REM to forget
that you'll die or to have the wrong
attitude about die like death one of my
favorite things from senica he goes like
do not think that you're moving towards
death he was like every second that pass
passes is death so don't think about it
as like oh I'm dying in the future and I
should be prepared for that think about
the fact that we're dying every day um
that you're just why is that better it
it's just a reminder it's not like death
is his thing in the future so I'm going
to dick around today it's that like the
hour that I spent on the couch I died
one hour of my death do you know what I
mean and his point is that so many
people think that there's life and death
but there are ways of living that are
essentially a form of being dead and
that this is in fact how most people die
uh or most people live uh there's this
um sort of Haunting messed up uh story
in senica one of the Emperors is sort of
like walking down this row of of you
know condemned prisoners and the
Prisoner is pleading for his life please
don't kill me and the emperor looks at
him and he thinks and he's like you
think you're alive you know because this
man's horrible way of living was already
death you know and and so that
just I think it so resonates with people
um because it's so the opposite of of of
how Modern Life is set up uh people die
in hospitals far from our house uh who
spends time with old people we are so
segregated even by age right um there's
been so many medical advancements that
death doesn't feel random it feels like
it's something your fault that like if
you eat healthy and you're a good person
obviously you'll live long time and on
average you will but that doesn't mean
that uh non-smokers don't get lung
cancer all the [ __ ] time and you
can't be one of those people that
doesn't mean that people uh don't get
hit with tree branches you know and die
or uh that doesn't mean that countries
don't go to war for no reason and lots
of you know like life is tragic and it
always has been for all of human history
and so that's that's definitely I think
the most powerful one and it's something
I I mean I keep on my desk I mean so I
wear this ring it's like a reminder but
I have uh I bought it on on on online
it's a a chunk of a tombstone and it
like from some I don't know how this
came to be I I hope nobody stole it but
it's from like an old Victorian grave so
a couple hundred years old and it just
uh it it just has the word dad on it and
it so that's so [ __ ] interesting like
I want to start asking people what is
some weird [ __ ] that they have that is
so interesting especially knowing your
views on death and being a dad recently
and so it's like this guy was a father
did you seek out the word dad I was
looking for something like that and when
I found it and I was like that's that's
it that's the reminder that I want to
have all the time [ __ ] that one really
hit me I'm not sure why yeah the the
word dad that it's an actual Tombstone
because it's because what you're
thinking about is what that person meant
to other people yes yes and and that
this is something clearly people
identify he he that was part of his
identity and he's not here and not only
is he not here I don't even [ __ ] know
his name nobody does not only does
nobody know his name but at some point
after his death even the ground he was
buried in like suffered an earthquake or
somebody stole it like so it's just
there's a humility in that and I think a
reminder to be present right like um so
when my let's say I'm working at my desk
and I'm writing and my son he's almost
three he comes running he's like dad Dad
look at this you know it that's like a
I'm going to get this writing done
because I'm important or it's important
to me but I am not going to ignore this
thing uh I'm going to I'm not saying I'm
going to quit my work and not focus on
it at all but I am not going to ignore
this moment to be this thing that's
important to me do you know what I mean
I do I think that gets I I want to
derail on that but first I want to
address address like the the notion of
death momento do not let me forget to
come back to your son coming in because
that's actually really [ __ ] we talk
about that before yeah but I I want to
talk about um so I I have an evolving
sense of what my relationship to death
should be so for a very long time um it
was patently obvious to me that I was
going to die but that we're living in a
period where it is conceivable that will
be able to hit escape velocity from a
health perspective and that by the time
we're 8090 if we're able to live that
long that they can add a year and a day
to every year that we live or whatever
so you just live a lot longer than
humans have conceived of life as being
correct so I thought okay that's
interesting to me because um I want to
live my life in such a way where my
limited amount of time does not impact
the size of my dreams so it wasn't a
denial of death it was just kind of a
cool Escape valve for me to even as I
got older to continue to have Big Dreams
that you know sort of by any stretch of
the imagination would probably go on
Beyond me but because tomorrow was never
guaranteed anyway even when I was 16
that there's only that the the sort of
false or maybe a better way to think of
it is um from a an Actuarial Table
standpoint you're probably going to live
long enough for you to have that 40-year
dream or that 60e dream or whatever so
because of that you just you do you have
these long ranging dreams and I felt
like because I had long ranging dreams I
was able to do some pretty extraordinary
things but only because I was thinking
so longterm so okay as I get older I
don't want to stop having these
long-term dreams so I really allowed
myself to soak in the notion of hey you
might live forever so keep having these
big long range dreams now hearing enough
people talk about momentto Mory or
whatever I started thinking all right
people that I really respect are telling
me that I need to really think closely
about the notion of dying so I thought
okay let me really stop and inspect
how that would impact me what does that
change in terms of the way that I live
or um how I perceive life or whatever
and so far I will say
because I'm already like it is it is at
the absolute core of my being to only do
things that matter to love deeply to
connect to the people that I love to not
waste time all that like I don't I
personally don't need that reminder many
people do and and it's very useful for
that that isn't the reminder that I
need I find that it's actually it it
feels important to acknowledge the
inevitability currently of my death but
at the same time I find that now I have
to fight harder to have long range plans
and I don't like the way that feels so I
it is it see it's seemingly there's a
contradiction between being present and
doing or planning big things but I'm not
sure that there is I don't know exactly
how to solve for it but let's look look
at the evidence right Marcus Aurelius
here's a guy he's reminding himself of
how ephemeral the Emperors who came
before him were he's reminding himself
of the inevitability of death uh he's
saying over and over again the
importance of being present not being
driven by anger we can't say like that
it that this guy didn't accomplish
incredible things right like that he
that because of that he just stayed in
bed all day I think what he's saying is
like let's do the right thing for the
right reason you look at Sen
same thing talking over and over again
about the death about the import the
inevitability of death the
meaninglessness of uh postumus Fame Etc
and yet still sits down and writes these
essays that continue to be read by
millions of people 2,000 plus years
after his death I think what it's about
is about stripping out the the lowgrade
anxiety or denial or whatever we have
and and being being able to focus
everything in that that moment so when
when sen is saying like you will die
today could be the last day of your life
he's not saying quit what you're doing
and go have an orgy or go shoot up
heroin just to see what it's like he's
saying live today like a complete day so
like what as I worked on Stillness is
the key it was something I was thinking
about a lot I was like okay I could die
before this book gets published what
happens to me it does someone finish it
does it get published whatever does it
sit in a drawer none of that's really my
concern what nor is it in my control
right even if I write in a will exactly
let Nabokov I I think wrote very clearly
like destroy my manuscripts after my
death really yeah and lots of authors
have done this and nobody listened you
know Kafka same thing we only know about
these works because they're they they
would be upset that we know who they are
right so what do I control what I do
control is did I do everything I could
today right did I leave like is the book
complete as of today do you know what I
mean like is it as complete up until the
point I was able to complete it so I go
you know the first twoth thirds are the
book that it could be as of today that's
what I do does that make sense it does
but I don't know that it hits me
emotionally so um let's try to unpack
that a little bit
so if you're saying like hey I'm going
to do my best and I'm going to be
present which we actually didn't address
and I don't think is a self-evident
realization when one thinks about their
death U which would be interesting to
hear your thoughts around why that is
your Association um I I begin to to
think about um so if I were writing a
book first of all I'm such a process
writer that I would be the the type
that's like bury the [ __ ] manuscript
like don't ever let it out people would
have no like they just wouldn't believe
how scandalously bad my early drafts of
anything are um so I I wouldn't think of
it in any other way than the following
did I sincerely pursue making this gr
today yes or no that's what that I
totally agree that's what it's about
he's he's saying like live every day as
a complete day and then when you wake up
tomorrow you're a Greatful because you
get a second day it's like you don't
walk up to the plate and swing at those
pitches and go I'll get it next time you
go like this is this is game seven you
know you know so [ __ ] interesting so
uh I so I I still struggle with anxiety
but my anxiety used to be debilitating
yeah and one of the things that got me
out of that was to say there's no such
thing as performance there's only
practice yes so literally the exact
opposite of what you're saying right now
there is no game seven even if it was
Game S I would have to tell myself hey
this is just practice and if you [ __ ]
this up no worries you're going to learn
something from this here here's I think
that this is like a life-changing
assumption that I came to about
philosophy um I'm not I don't sure not
sure exactly where I came to it but it
it cracked open a whole thing for me um
and maybe it was in the 48 Laws of Power
people go like but the laws contradict
each other different situations call for
different perspectives right they're not
life is [ __ ] complicated life is a
paradox right and so I think what you
you go is like sometimes you need to be
told uh this moment is game seven and
sometimes you go it's not even uh none
of this even matters you you go back and
forth right this is so important yes and
and so and and also let's think about
what philosophy actually is because now
we have these pretentious academics who
are like this is the theory of the
universe you know what what epic tetus
or senica or Marcus relus is doing is
answering questions in the way that like
if I looked at all the q&as you've done
I'd be like Tom half your answers
contradict each other that's because
you're talking to Steve and over here
you're talking to Susan and and then
maybe if you were talking to Susan 3
weeks later you give a totally different
answer because it was a different
question
or because she's changed right like
different things requireed so if you're
curing anxiety how can we zoom out and
get a different perspective if you're
wasting time or you're if like if you're
dwelling in the past then we want to do
you just do it differently to get the
different perspectives that give you the
tools to be able to move forward and
ultimately what and I'm not trying to do
this to plug my book ultimately what
we're trying to do is get to a place of
Stillness and Clarity and focus so we
can be 100% locked in in whatever we're
doing so um that's what this is all
about and and sometimes you're flashing
forward sometimes you're looking to
history for perspective sometimes you're
emptying your mind entirely it's it's
just like every Situation's got
different handles and you you grab on to
the right one at the right time so wow
you just put words at something that I
think is so incredibly important and are
you able to define perspective because
to me this is so the book that I'm
writing is essentially about how to
craft and I don't like the word
perspective even though it's probably
the closest thing okay but the ability
to craft a perspective the ability to at
will change your perspective is
critically important and I think that
perspective is the very thing that holds
people back um my realization that the
people in the inner cities that were
working for me at Quest that they had a
bad perspective that was going to blunt
their ability to have an extraordinary
life that realization is why impact
Theory exists so like that whole notion
of perspective being this incredibly
meaningful thing um is is at the center
of my philosophy and my drive and all
that are you able to Define what a
perspective
is um there's a German word uh umwelt
and it basically mean like a dog has a
different umwelt than a human and I
would argue that a a champion at this
sport versus a you know uh an
egotistical loser who won't get off
their couch they have different oels
they have different experiences of
reality and the ability to control that
or to to it's like you know you're
cranking the thing on the binoculars uh
that's what you want to be able to
cultivate and when you look at what uh
the stoics are doing it's sometimes
they're zooming way in and going like
just look at the thing immediately in
front of you don't extrapolate out to
the hole that's what's intimidating you
and then other times they're like look
at the world from above and how puny
even the Roman Empire is compared to
other things and they're in some cases
in the same same moment doing both of
those and it's just like it's just
realizing that um how we look at the
world is the the world is objective but
how we look at it determines what we're
going to be able to do to it epic says
it's not things that upset us it's our
opinions about things right and so
realizing like oh okay the world is
objective my opinion is what determines
everything and by opinion he means
judgments right the other he says it's
not things that upset us it's our
judgment about things so it's really
judge maybe judgment's a better word
than perspective uh well let's go back
to the notion of so I've heard it
pronounced umelt I don't know which is
right umelt whatever um so to Define at
least and I don't know if this is the
official Miriam Webster definition but
um a big part of the need to Define an
neld or or to have a word for it is um
take uh birds or fish right they they
actually perceive data from the world
differently so a shark can detect
electrical signals and you can actually
fool a shark into thinking that a metal
plate is a flopping fish because you
just have the plate emanate an
electrical signal and it it can't help
but interpret it that way but we would
not notice anything so we' have only
that but like isn't it interesting that
we just assume sharks are looking and
smelling that's how we looking smelling
and hearing we just go everyone must be
perceiving those senses it's not we
don't even we can't even think about how
a bat perceives reality driven by radar
right yes 100% And so um I think
something that drives my very
understanding of the world all of my
philosophies everything that I teach is
all about we are humans experiencing
life through a biological system and
that biological system has its own umelt
it has limitations we see only a certain
spectrum of light we hear only a certain
spectrum of sound like we can't
experience Wi-Fi signals like they or
maybe we do but on a cellular level and
so we have no conscious awareness of it
so it's like really getting down to okay
if you know that your unel is limited
and you know that you're confined in
this world and that your brain actually
has a region of it that says not just
what is happening but how you feel about
what is happening the Deep lyic system
right your brain actually processes
things through the lens of is this good
or bad right that that you can knock out
that part of the brain and cause people
massive problems cuz once they don't
have an emotion about it they can't even
decide what they want for lunch [ __ ]
crazy so wrapping your head around okay
I I am this I love the notion of the
elephant and the writer okay so who is
the writer I'm not even going to talk
about that right now I'm just going to
say you're a rider your elephant is the
biological system and once you
understand what motivates that elephant
to move to rage to run to hunger sex
sleep whatever then you can begin to
control it more effortlessly and whether
that's to purs
Stillness and um or whether that is just
understanding your own motivations and
desires I think is incredibly important
where I get freaked out is that people
have no sense of the elephant they have
no sense that the elephant is controlled
by its umelt they have no sense that
like okay you you do have a limited
number of inputs coming in in a limited
number of ways but even within that
there's so much degree of like
interpretation that you can take control
of that you can begin to decide how you
see your world and once you decide how
you're going to see the world it will
hardwire over time if you obsessively
focus on that so that you get a
neurochemical response humans move away
from pain they move towards pleasure so
now you're changing what gives you
pleasure you're choosing or changing
what gives you pain and so you're able
to steer that elephant you made a face
that says you're not sure you believe
that no no no I'm just thinking yes okay
so that to me like once you understand
that then it's like okay you can begin
to
control wrong word you can begin to
navigate more intelligently your way
through life because you have some end
goal yes you begin to hardwire Pleasure
and Pain in a way that is going to move
you towards that now I don't think you
have complete Freedom over what you can
hardwire but there's going back to that
50/50 there's a massive amount that you
can manipulate in that to go in a
direction that makes sense based on your
goals yeah no I totally agree and look I
I think an interesting thing you realize
uh when you have kids is you go like oh
this kid is acting this way because he's
really tired and that it that how he's
acting in this situation is not a
reflection of him it's a reflection of
environmental habit things like that
like we didn't give he didn't go down
for his nap that's why he's yelling uh
he's upset he says that it's CU he wants
his toy really he wants to eat but he
doesn't know that that's what he wants
and then having the humility to go like
we're all not only are we all basically
just big children but most of us have an
inner child inside of us that you know
is responding to some childhood trauma
that we have that that is motivating and
steering a lot like you're attracted to
this person because they remind you of
this other person or you repeat this
pattern where you end up frustrated or
upset or you know um in pain because
that's a trauma that that's familiar to
you and you're just enact and so
realizing that we're sort of pulled by
these forces uh lets you I think or
hopefully go oh I'm not mad I'm tired
you know what I mean or or go this is I
think this is what would make the world
a better place go this person who I
don't know who's rude to me in the
supermarket is not a bad person they're
just responding to one of these forces
right and this also I think allows us to
be more forgiving of people who are in
jail people who have failed people who
are not successful you go oh all these
things are contributing but you have the
ability just like I you can bring a
shelter dog we go oh you can't turn you
know you can't teach an old dog new
tricks you can't teach your old dog new
tricks but if you got a dog from a
shelter you could teach it to sit very
quickly do you know what I mean because
it's like fresh for both of you and the
environment has changed and the
situation has changed and and that like
it's just silly to write other people
off or to write yourself off or uh to do
what do they call it the attribution
fallacy where where we attribute because
of one piece of behavior or one Flash
observance we attribute uh an entire
understanding about who that person is
or what they're capable of because we
saw them yell at someone or we saw them
be nice to someone and we don't realize
that actually they're a serial killer do
you know what I mean like it's it's all
very complicated that escalated quickly
yes uh yeah so I want to go back to what
you just said that's super interesting
you and I think this is very true the
problem isn't that you can't teach an
old dog new tricks the problem is you
can't teach your old dog nutrix and I
assume in that analogy you're saying
like it might be hard for you to change
your own mind but if you could step
outside or have somebody come in from
the outside you could even be very
easily retrained maybe yeah I think so
that's why that's why when people
undergo a trauma or they find out they
have cancer or they move to a new city
suddenly a whole bunch of things that
weren't possible before become possible
or I think this also explains why
momentum uh is so valuable because it's
changing suddenly you think you're
capable of something that you're know
more or less capable of before but now
you've earned a little confidence or you
see yourself differently and then
suddenly Everything Changes that's
really interesting uh go down that path
because I think that um what you're
calling momentum what I think most
people would refer to in that scenario
is confidence yeah
is one of the most important things for
PE in business probably in life but I
always think about it in the business
context for them to be able to create
that momentum one how do you create that
momentum why does it matter so much well
so I just hear from lots of people who
want to write books right there'll be
someone they're like hey I'm you know a
super successful CEO of X or you know
I've done this for like I've been a
professional athlete the last the next
10 year the last 10 years and I want to
become you know a motivational speaker
or something and they go like help me
make a book and I go like why are you
starting with the hardest thing like
write one tweet you know or one article
like you know what I mean do one like it
the idea that you should just for flat
fast forward all the way to the end
without building the process to get
there like to me that's what momentum is
uh that that's the the what you will
write a better book if you've gotten
reps earlier in the thing and but people
just want the outcome they don't want
the process and so I I think you know
it's like if you were trying to lose
weight people like I got to change
everything and it's probably like James
Clear talks about this in atomic C like
what's the smallest unit of change that
you can make um because you can build on
that and and in writing we say something
similar it's like you can edit crappy
pages and turn them into good Pages you
cannot edit pages that don't exist you
know like uh and and so uh but people
are paralyzed by the idea of having
something perfect um or something that
lives up to their standards and so they
don't start yeah Seth Goden talks about
like people always come to him and say
oh I'm a terrible writer I can never do
that he's like awesome let me see your
terrible pages right and he was like
they never have any and he was like they
have this belief that they're not good
but they're not even putting in the work
to actually get better and improve yes
which going back to that whole notion of
perspective your perspective is going to
determine what you pursue so it's what I
call the only belief that matters the
only belief that matters is that you
think you can actually get better that
you think by putting in the energy and
the effort that will be rewarded with an
improvement in your skill set yeah just
uh I what I say is um uh if you don't
believe you can do something you almost
certainly cannot do it but just because
you believe you can do something doesn't
mean you can do it right and so when
Churchill is saying that um you know uh
Perfection can be spelled paralysis with
with the word paralysis I think he's not
saying that you shouldn't uh you
shouldn't try to be really really really
good so like it's a very subtle uh
perspective shift it's like oh no I'm
approaching Perfection but I understand
understand that Perfection is impossible
right so then you're like oh I'm getting
better that now progress is possible but
if you're like my end goal is to be
perfect you've essentially it's it's a
tricky thing because what you're really
doing is giving yourself an excuse not
to start because you know the thing is
impossible right like it it you can lose
weight you cannot get taller right so if
you go my goal is to grow a foot this
year and then if I checked in with you a
year later I'd be like what' you do
you'd be like nothing because it's not
possible but if I said hey you know your
your goal is to lose 20 pounds there's
at least things you can do to get there
well here's the good news you actually
could get a foot taller you know about
the bone breaking techniques that they
use on people that have dwarfism and
stuff no you didn't know about this this
is [ __ ] crazy man so th this comes
down to why I always like I tell people
look human potential is nearly Limitless
now I used to say it's Limitless yeah
but people just start pushing backp dumb
[ __ ] right well you want to talk
perspective like if your perspective is
such that you're going to waste your
time pushing back on somebody who's
saying that things are you know that
human potential is liit it's like come
on man so act as if but my thing is the
the very reason that
I I know that the the law of averages
says that some massive percentage is it
20 is it 30% they legitimately fall
below what all call minimum requirements
they're not going to be able to make
change in their life and it's I think
the US military won't um it's like 4% of
the male population like a disgusting
amount they won't bring on people that
have lower than 83 IQ oh I was just
going to say uh that that is more loaded
my was responding to like the mil like
50% of the population does not even
qualify to be in the military it's it's
it's somewhat intelligent it's a very
large number but it's like just being
overweight like they won't take you if
you weigh over a certain amount and
you're like the job that was supposed to
be and I'm not saying the military is
the lowest but the the military was
supposed to be the ultimate equality of
of opportunity like they're like we'll
take anyone and turn them into
excellence and then they're like but
these people haven't even gotten to zero
you know what I mean they're at like 50
and you got to get to zero for us to
work our magic wow I didn't realize that
they had weight requirements yeah you
can't like you couldn't just enlist in
the Marines if you weigh 500 lb actually
I did sort of vaguely know that but I
thought that was for more Elite do you
know David goggin yeah so they told him
hey you have to lose 100
am he it is just
Insanity um so going back so I used to
tell people that um you know your human
potential is Limitless and people would
push back in the dumbest [ __ ] and the
reason that I would say that is I'm I
was so worried that people would assume
they fell into like oh what I want to do
is a thing that can't be done or
whatever and my thing is look if you act
as if anything can be done you're
actually better off even though I know
it's not true like that is definitively
a lie but if you act as if it were true
you're much less likely to make the
mistake of not trying something that
actually is possible so I'll give a
quick example um the bone breaking so
you can go in and if you break the bone
and then separate it like a centimeter
some very small increment the bone will
actually grow back together then you
break it again it grows back together
and again and again again and people
that have dwarfism they can actually I
mean it's I don't know what the upper
limit is but let's say it's it's got to
be close to a foot it's pretty crazy
someone just did an Amman Reddit about
hey I just grew a foot in the last
whatever two years or something doing
that technique so it's [ __ ] crazy the
number of things that you can do that
people just assume you can't there was
another one I had this guy on oh can I
remember his name he was on impact
Theory oh um neuroscientist I'm blanking
on his name right now I'm so sad he was
so cool this Ry guy really interesting
and he was um doing doing some studying
and he basically did a sort of this a
technique of brain scanning that if you
sort of carried it out to his logical
conclusion like it could record dreams
and so somebody he publishes a paper on
it somebody calls him in the middle of
the night and says so are you saying
that you can record dreams and he is
like half asleep he's [ __ ] exhausted
and he ends up saying well yeah I guess
you could and then the next day the
headline reads neuroscientist says that
you can record Dreams yeah and he's he
pics and he's like I'm going to get
kicked out of Academia like everyone's
going to realize I'm a quack [ __ ] and
he's trying to resend it and it it just
won't go away and for a year it just
runs out of control and people are
saying that oh my God this is possible
and he's trying to retract it nobody
will let him retract it and he has all
this anxiety about it and he's really
freaking out that it's going to end his
career and then finally it dies down and
and he just sort of closes the door on
it and then like a year later this
Japanese researcher publishes a paper
about how they recorded dreams and he
was like what the hell and the the guy
says oh because of you saying that you
were already doing it I just assumed
that it could be done and so I started
doing it and so he says that the
ultimate lesson he took away was not to
say something is possible when you
believe it's not possible he said the
lesson I learned was not to say
something is impossible before you
really go out and prove that it can't be
done look I don't and it's so
interesting because people think because
of my stuff in STO isn't that I'm like
some pessimistic or resigned or like the
stoics are very clear on this too I mean
one of my favorite passages Marcus
realist he goes if it's humanly possible
assume you can do it also so it's the
same thing it's just um being realistic
doesn't mean you're being pessimistic
necessarily it tends to be that way for
a lot of people but um if if you have a
good sense of what is actually literally
possible um or or you've studied history
enough to see just the Magnificent
things human beings are capable of doing
and and how regularly they disprove our
assumptions about things you do have a
you you don't go around thinking like oh
I'm I have very little agency you know
what I mean you actually have the sense
that like actually you can sort of
change the world or or or you know
change yourself at any moment we tend to
think of space and time as the basic
level of reality everything that could
possibly be is inside space and has some
some time the Big Bang was the start of
it all and who knows what the end will
be maybe a big crunch or just petering
out in low entropy and low temperature
we don't know yet but that we think or
we thought is the basis of all reality
so space and time are the the basic
stage on which all of reality plays out
and how can it not be though that's the
weird thing yeah does that mean that
whatever is real and we should probably
give people your um headset met diverse
explanation which speaks dear to my
heart but before we do that does that
mean that whatever is real is
nonphysical well so the word real is a
little slippery so um in some sense my
headache is real right because it's a
real
experience but um it real in the sense
that the physicists are talking about it
when they thought that space and time
were fundamental they were thinking that
this was the fundamental ground of all
possible realities
um like in a Newtonian universe and even
in Einstein's point of view Einstein
thought that space and time was the
grounding reality for everything and now
we realize
that the four dimensions of
SpaceTime or even the 10 dimensions of
string theory or something like that is
not going deep enough there are
structures entirely Beyond SpaceTime and
entirely Beyond quantum theory so so
these new structures are not like little
structure sitting inside at that small
scales I we get to structures yeah
people are going to be super lost so
okay the idea of the headset I think is
a really core concept so uh somebody
asked you once like in the future we're
going to start using different metaphors
what metaphors do you think we're going
to use and you said the metaverse as
somebody trying to contribute to the
metaverse my ears perked up on that one
why will that become such a useful
metaphor for for this moment and how we
perceive things right because the way
that
Evolution speaks on this is it says that
our perceptions of of objects and space
and time is really just like a virtual
reality headset it's there to help you
play the game of life without knowing
what's on the other side of the headset
what's on the other side what what's the
hardware and software that's running the
game you don't have to know that to play
the game and in fact if you were trying
to play a game of like Grand Theft Auto
in virtual reality and and uh you know
you had to toggle millions of voltages
per second to drive your car uh you
would lose when you were you know
competing with someone who could just
turn a nice little simple steering wheel
and press on a artificial gas pedal so
Evolution gave us senses that allow us
to survive by hiding the truth and just
telling us how to act so as The
evolutionary theorist would say our
senses guide adaptive Behavior why does
natural selection as a theory predict
that cuz I understand the theory I guess
well enough at a high level but I never
would have guessed that it actually says
that it makes a prediction anyway that
you whatever is real the only thing I
can tell you that Evolution has selected
for is not that so where like would uh
is this something that Darwin himself
saw in his theory or would he be
surprised I think Darwin would be
surprised
and in fact many um evolutionary
theorists today are surprised and and so
how do we know this isn't just a cooky
interpretation of natural selection by
Donald Hoffman exactly so
the the way we pursue this is it turns
out that Darwin's theory has been turned
into a mathematically precise Theory
it's called evolutionary Game Theory so
John Maynard Smith started that in in
the 1970s and so we now have instead of
you know Darwin the which is you know
it's imprecise in the sense that it's
not a mathematical model evolutionary
Game Theory evolutionary graph Theory
are mathematically precise so we can now
prove theorems and we can ask technical
questions so what is the
probability that natural
selection would shape any sensory system
of any
organism to reveal any true structures
of objective reality that's a clean
technical question and it turns out that
evolutionary game theory is precise
enough to address that question okay so
I know I've gotten hung up on that a lot
and I think for people of my cognitive
ability we will have to accept that as
the miracle of this conversation
otherwise we'll derail on that because I
don't understand how his theory can be
turned into a math equation and I worry
that for you to explain it to me would
take an entire semester and cause me to
tear my hair out but so if we can accept
unless you're thinking it looks like you
may have a way to EXP give a little hint
it's when we say evolutionary Game
Theory mhm it really think about Game
Theory how do you play Monopoly and win
how do you play various games so it
turns out you can look at different
strategies that someone might have you
know I'm going to go for Park Place I'm
going to go for Boardwalk I'm going to
try to there's all different strateg and
you can then write down mathematically
okay if you take this strategy what is
the probability that you will do well
against someone who's taking this other
strategy that's all about most Offspring
and the so the strategies are ways to
survive long enough to reproduce and so
you can look at different strategies for
playing the game of life so for example
some organisms will have millions or
thousands of
Offspring and but they don't care about
The Offspring most of them will die but
if 1% of them make it you're good humans
tend to have just a couple a handful of
Offspring and we put a lot of effort
into them so those are different
strategies and so as you look so some
strategies for example in perception
humans really have focused in our
Evolution on vision and a little and
hearing and less on smell and taste and
so forth other organisms focus on things
that we don't even have like
echolocation in bats so different
organisms will take different strategies
The Game of Life is how do I live long
enough to reproduce and how do I raise
my Offspring to maturity know do I do I
just make lots of them and let them fend
for themselves and most of them die but
a fraction will make it or do I make
just a few of them and really help them
for 20 or 30 years until they can go on
their own or more these days or more
those days so by from evolutionary game
theories perspective what is the most
successful creature on planet
Earth um well probably bacteria um
interesting right there there's more
bacteria
than than us and maybe viruses if
they're more so from that point of view
um right the the the winner is the one
who um you know survives long enough to
reproduce and reproduces for a long
period of time and you know
cyanobacteria have been around for
billions of years so you know they're
they're certainly candidates I'm not
saying that they're the final answer but
that kind of thing would be humans are
you know relative newcomers and I I
actually really like the theory that
humans are bacteria's way of moving
around which is pretty interesting when
you think that we're outnumbered by the
bacteria in our guts on our skin and all
of that stuff it's pretty interesting I
should have guessed that answer but I
didn't but that makes a lot of sense
right right so so this gives you the
idea when you're playing a game there's
lots of strategies especially in a
complicated game there's lots of
strategies and it's not that there's
going to be one best strategy it's
rather that if so you know if Tom is
using this strategy what should what
strategy should I use to counter Tom
strategy and and so forth same thing in
business right depends on who your
competition is what strategies you're
going to take and what is the Govern
governing system and so forth like with
the laws and so forth they will all
determine your strategy so you can use
Game Theory and turn it into a tool for
studying Evolution as a game where your
bacteria are trying to play the game of
Life One way humans are playing the game
of Life another way every different
organism every different plant is
playing the game of life with a
different kind of strategy that's really
interesting it's funny I I this is the
third time I've interviewed you and I've
never pushed on this because it there
was something about I couldn't wrap my
brain around it so I'm glad you took the
time yeah uh what's fascinating to me is
every species has its own umelt yes
which is a really fascinating concept so
I looked this up once and every time I
say this stat I think I must be wrong
because it just seems way too far off
but humans are able to perceive
.35% of the uh electromagnetic spectrum
and I was like how is I POS that's so
like every everything that we see and
think of as the the known world is
0.35% that is like vanishingly small
exactly right so our our window on the
on the world is Trivial compared to what
could in principle be available and so
the the question that you can then ask
in a technical fashion
is what is the probability that a
strategy of
seeing truth true structures about
objective reality would would that
strategy help you to survive long enough
to raise
kids and so we can ask that as a
technical question Evolution has the
tools to do that and the key concept is
something called a fitness payoff
so it's Fitness payoff is like if you're
playing a game there's certain way that
you get points in the game if you're
playing a video game right you have to
shoot things down or avoid getting hit
and to get points and if you get enough
points you get to the next level of the
game well Fitness payoffs um if you get
enough Fitness payoffs what that
corresponds to is you're surviving long
enough to reproduce and you don't go to
the next level of the game but your
Offspring and your DNA in your Offspring
go to the next level of the game you can
reboot your life your health even your
career anything you want all you need is
discipline I can teach you the tactics
that I learned while growing a billion-
Dollar business that will allow you to
see your goals through whether you want
better health stronger relationships a
more successful career any of that is
possible with the mindset and business
programs in Impact Theory University
join the thousands of students who have
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today so here's the here's the big
idea we can ask these Fitness payoff
functions that govern our Evolution they
do depend on whatever the world is and
the world structure so they do depend on
the world they depend on the organism
you know what's fit for me is not fit
for a benic fish being 5,000 meters
under the water would kill me it's just
what the benic fish wants so so the
fitness payoffs depend on the true
structure of the world depends on the
organism you know Hoffman versus a fish
and the um the action feeding fighting
fleeing and mating and and so forth and
you can then ask what is the probability
this is now this is the key technical
question what is the probability that a
randomly chosen Fitness payoff function
that's govering my Evolution has
information about the true structure of
the world right because it's that fit
Evolution tells us those Fitness payoffs
are what determine how your senses are
going to evolve they're going what's
base assumption there that the that
reality is so complex in fact I want to
press I want to take a second to really
elucidate the example you gave about
Grand Theft Auto which I think is so
brilliant what's actually happening in
Grand Theft Auto is um electrical
currents are toggling on and off Gates
on the computer and that somehow makes
things happen on your screen that you
can interact with and score points and
all that right but at like if you look
at a CH ship it is so complicated that
trying to like zap electrodes in the
right order literally impossible right
and so everything that we we as the
average non-computer programmer think of
as a computer is really just the goey
it's the interface and so you're there
at a really AB really abstracted level
it is so abstract is to be nonsensical
compared to what's actually happening at
the electrical communication level with
the machine itself sending signals to
your TV exactly and if real life has
that same level of complexity then I get
why it would need to be so abstracted
that as to be just nonsensical compared
to what reality really
is something I think breaks in people's
intuition it certainly breaks in my
intuition when I think though that there
has to be some sort of mapping so the
example that you've said many times I
think is really on point is uh if people
are going to make fun of you what they
will say is oh you don't think any of
this is real go ahead and step in front
of that train and see if it kills you
right and of course it's going to so the
representation of the
train is pointing at
something that will change your state
from alive to dead that's right now
whether all of that is is so again
abstracted from what's actually
happening at a electrical level I don't
even know to liken it to um but
nonetheless stepping in front of a train
will flip you from alive to dead
whatever that means in the the
underlying reality so do you think at
all about like do you care what it's
mapping to or are you just like H it
doesn't matter it's too complicated
we're not there yet well I do care and
that's why I'm interested in this
particular THM right because my interest
is I'm seeing a world of space and time
and objects with colors and shapes and
motions how is is that the true world is
that the the true structure of objective
reality or is this as divorced from
reality is what we're seeing as divorced
from the fundamental reality as my Grand
Theft Auto VR headset is from the
voltages inside the supercomputer that's
running it that's the that's the simple
question right so when I talk about
things outside of SpaceTime it's just
like suppose someone had played Grand
Theft Auto since they were one day old
and their parents had left them in a
headset their whole life and when
they're 25 the parents say guess what
you've been in the headset your whole
life and and that that person probably
can't even what could possibly be
outside of my headset I've lived my
whole life inside this headset and you
pull it off and you realize oh wow
there's a whole world that's entirely
outside of what you're in that's the
question we're asking has has Evolution
shaped us with just a little headset a
VR headset that that guides adaptive
Behavior but shows us none of objective
reality that's that's the technical
question and the answer is is very very
clear the probability is
one that we don't see the truth at all
meaning 100% 100% okay so if the
probability is 100% that you are seeing
a very false version right the the thing
that that seems to predict to me is that
the underlying reality is so complicated
that at least in this
form I don't know how else to refer to
that in this form it would with our
umelt our ability to process data
whatever it would not make sense to try
to
um to deal with the reality that it's
far more efficient to create an
abstraction layer but if underlying
reality is dead simple that doesn't seem
like it would hold true so do we just
presume that there is Extreme
complexity well it turns out that the
extreme complexity isn't necessary for
this theorem to be true interesting why
would you need such an elaborate
abstraction if it isn't complicated
well so it turns out when you actually
just look at the math so suppose the
world has some number of states a
billion States or or 100 States whatever
it might so there's some number of
states in the world and you have some
number of states of perception I can see
green red there's lots of things I can
see when you just do a simple count look
at all the possible functions from the
states of the world to the states of my%
you just count them so it doesn't the
world doesn't have to be complicated
could have just you know 100 points or a
thousand points when you count those all
the functions and that are the fitness
functions and ask how many of those
functions actually contain information
about the structures in the in the world
it turns out that very quickly the
proportion goes to zero it's just so
even if the structure isn't that
complicated maybe there's only one
structure in the world that's all it has
like a total order something you know
one is less than two is less than three
is what is the probability that that
total order so the world could be very
simple it only has one simple structure
total order and and the world only has
you know maybe a million States so it's
not a very complicated World a million
States what is the probability that um
the fitness payoff functions that govern
my my Evolution would
preserve the total order information
would would actually be able to tell me
about the total order and the math is
quite simple and the answer is zero but
that has to predict
something like so when when I make the
base assumption that it's it's because
it is too complex so to give people I
want to start putting definitions of
some of these words so when you say
State let's say lights on lights off so
we all live where Earth has two states
the Sun is up the sun is down that's one
uh temperature would be another state
could be hot could be cold uh barometric
pressure could be high could be low
could be wet could be dry like we can
just so there's a lot of different
things and so to your point about the
fish they're dealing with massive
pressures if they were to come up where
there's no pressure they would
disintegrate or not be able to move
whatever just like we Crush down to the
you know like a tiny can so they would
explode and we would crush right exactly
right right so okay that when you say
States that's one example I I don't
understand how if everything were static
it were one
state that we would need an abstraction
layer to navigate it more effectively
than somebody that sees objective
reality so now I'm going to use an
example to further illustrate what I
mean I'm going to use an example gave me
the first time you cannot imagine how
many times I've quoted you on this okay
you said uh Tom you have to understand
that objective reality isn't like oh
here's a table and it's got this nice
swirly grain pattern it's the number of
photons reflecting off of that desk and
the the amount of reflectivity and all
that now irony of ironies as I have
started working in the metaverse you
realize how complicated the visual world
is the the
.35% of the visual Spectrum that we
actually see is insanely complicated to
replicate right right Donald it's the
hardest thing I've done in my life it's
crazy and I don't even have to fully
understand it I just have to guide the
team that understands it anyway when you
said that I was like whoa what reality
is is very different than how I
experience it so cool complex right so
now I get why the math works out right
but if it isn't
complex so you don't seem to be
struggling with this what is it that you
understand that I don't or what is your
base assumption that's different than
mine that makes it make sense to you
that to achieve maximum Fitness payoff
you would 100% not retain elements of
reality right so so first I I don't deny
that I I suspect that reality is very
complicated so so my that isn't
necessary necessary for this that's
right it's just simply accounting thing
so if you if you look at all the
functions from one set to another set
like so I have functions say I have
numbers 1 through 10 and that's my base
set and I'm going to map them into
numbers 1 through 10 so I can map one to
three and two to five and so forth so
now if you just do okay if you think
about that problem you I could probably
figure out okay how many different
functions are there right so you can
write write down all now you can say
okay how many of those functions have
the property that um you know they
preserve that one is less than two is
less than three and less than four how
many of them scramble that order how
many preserve that order how many
scramble how many contain information
about the one L less than two less than
three less than four so this is called
combinatorics it's a branch of
mathematics oh I'm unfortunately all too
aware of it because of nfts yes which
require you to understand this CU you're
making you have to your point and maybe
this is what you're saying and so maybe
I actually now I'm understanding it let
me walk you through we NS so you create
all these traits all these cies I say
and then within each category you have
maybe 10 possible eyebrows that it could
be eyeball types
hairstyles uh facial hair so on and so
forth that outputs let's say two billion
potential permutations exactly right but
you want to maintain a distribution in
the 10,000 that you're actually going to
show so we were all trying to do the
math and we're working it out and I'm
like there's no way it's as simple
there's some problem and then we showed
it to physicists and they fell out
laughing and they're like yeah it's not
that simple and so they're like for you
to maintain the the um the percentage
likelihood to get gold eyes let's say
out of your two billion combinations
they're like you have to force it down
into this thing which they called
combinatorial or whatever and so I was
like okay and so that's that really is
the point here that even though I agree
with you that the universe is probably
the real Universe whatever it is is very
complicated I I believe that
combinatorics blow up so quickly got it
by the time you just get to a few
hundred elements you know that as you
found the thing the explosion of of
possibilities is so great that when they
ask how many of those possible Fitness
functions would actually be so special
that they contain information about the
structure of where they came from out of
all of the possible Fitness functions
that so it's not an overly complicated
world it's just the number of potential
mapping points and combinations exactly
right very interesting because
evolutionary theory puts no restriction
on the fitness payoff functions any
possible there could be as many as you
can imagine and there's no restrict
there's no restriction that says they
have to show you the truth that's not
part of the theory right so until so and
and by the way no one knows how to put
that that into the theory right so I
mean to say that it requires that only
the fitness functions that preserve the
truth would be a major revision to
evolutionary theory it would be
unrecognizable so so when you look then
and say okay every Fitness payoff
function is is equal likely as any other
Fitness payoff function they're all an
equal footing and then you count the
ones that actually have information
about the
truth they go to zero probability right
in fast order now there is one I should
bring out there's um a group at Yale
that has recently published a paper
that's trying to um push back on this
and what they say is if you have say a
bunch of like thousands of Fitness pay
functions they're all radically
different then they say that you'll be
forced to um to go to the truth and and
they the the argument that they make is
that if our highlevel cognition our
beliefs our goals and so forth are not
going to interfere with our
perceptions they claim that then our
perceptions have to map have a single
mapping from the state of the world into
the state of our senses has to be a
single mapping you can't have so because
one thing I could do with a lot of
Fitness functions to say well this
Fitness function is different from that
one so I will do this kind of mapping
from the world into my senses with this
Fitness payoff function then I'll do
another mapping with this Fitness payoff
function and and they say no if you're
going to have what we call um cognitive
impenetrability so what you believe
cognitively cannot affect um what you
see okay that's that's the argument then
you must have only one mapping well it
so that's their assumption so hold on
let me make sure I understand that so
they're saying
that basically so that your delusions
don't create the exterior world or at
least your perception of it you have to
have this map so that you're actually
detecting and seeing what is
real they're they're saying that if what
you believe doesn't affect your senses
in a fundamental way yep then they
claim that that entails that you can
only have one mapping from the world the
fitness the the the mapping of your
senses from the whatever the world is
into what what you're seeing the colors
and the shapes and so forth that there
can only be one map um that that holds
regardless of what the fitness payoff
functions that was their claim so and
and the only reason I bring this up is
because this is a recently published
paper the claim is false it's it's
trivial to show counter examples their
fundamental claim is false please do as
a way just to make sure that I actually
understand what they're saying because
this sounds like what they're trying to
protect against is um
hallucinations basically
becoming subjectively real right so so I
actually think that it's true probably
to a large extent that what we believe
does not really affect fundamentally
what we see so technical term we use the
geek term is cognitive impenetrability
of perception that's what the
philosophers of science will talk about
and cognitive scientists that are are
and you can think about scientists might
like this because they'll say look we
want to use our senses in our
experiments I want to my theory makes a
prediction I have to go look and see if
the prediction is true well if my theory
that I'm holding would change what I see
then science isn't going to really be
objective right I mean if I believe this
Theory and it changes how I see the data
then I'm might just see the data that
confirms the theory and I can't escape
so that's why there's philosophy of
science has been very interested in this
question are our highlevel theoretical
beliefs and just our beliefs as everyday
people do they get in there and somehow
fundamentally affect how we see the
world and there is a you know sort of a
way you could say that you know I the
way I believe things does change my
world but not they don't change like the
color I see or the threedimensional
structure of the cube here that I'm
seeing I mean they might change it in
some way but but not fundamentally like
that so that's the that's the question
and so it's it's trivial mean so when
the group at Yale makes this point that
you know if you have lots of different
Fitness payoff functions and you don't
have your high level beliefs interfering
with the process of perception then you
can only have one one map from the world
in to your senses and of course they
they don't prove that they they just
state it without proof and so it's it's
trivially false we we have made counter
examples it's very very easy to make
counter examples I can design a system
in which I have say two Fitness payoff
functions and I I use one Fitness F
function to make one map from the world
into my perceptions use the other
Fitness function to make another map and
if I have a system that has no highle
beliefs then the high level beliefs
aren't interfering with it there's
counter example right there no cognitive
penetration of perception multiple Maps
but then I can add beliefs and say I
know I can have beliefs there as long as
they don't interfere with this mapping
here I could have two two maps why not
so it's they they're the guys the group
at Yale they're brilliant
experimentalists and you know one of
them is a a really good friend of of one
of my collaborators I mean they're they
were postto and MIT together and so
forth so they're brilliant
experimentalists but the fundamental
assumption that they're making is just
trivially false and so so then what how
do we see this in our perceptions the
way we see it in our perceptions
is we have probably hundreds of
thousands if not millions of Fitness
payoff functions that are governing our
be our Behavior so what do we do with
all that complexity what we do is we
group The Fitness payoff functions into
groups that are similar and we take that
and we make simple little data
structures out of them and those data
structures are what we call
objects so this object is good for
drinking can you what what is a data
structure when you say that it's an
object meaning my
mind groups it so that I can
differentiate the cup from the coaster
from the
desk what I'm saying is we're making all
this stuff up as a simple way to
represent the fitnesses fitness payoffs
and how to get them so so for example in
when you're playing Grand Theft Auto mhm
you're just you're playing a game um if
you looked inside the
supercomputer there there is no red
Porsche there is no steering wheel there
is no gas pedal in some sense those are
what I call Simple data structures
they're coding for you know the gas
pedal and pushing on the gas pedal is
coding for who knows countless millions
of voltage changes happening in in
exactly the right sequence in the
computer I have this trivial data
structure gas pedal push on it that
triggers this whole other thing that I
don't want to know about it's really too
complicated so that's what I mean by
these simplifying data structures my
steering wheel is this simple data
structure that I can use to interact
with who knows how many billions or
trillions of voltages and make them do
exactly the right sequence in the right
order could I say representation instead
of data structure absolutely data
structure is a computer science term so
computer scientists would would be very
happy with that but but representation
is is perfectly good and so the idea
then is what evolution has done from an
evolutionary point of view is it takes
all these Fitness payoff functions that
govern us that govern our our survival
and that we need to respect in order to
play the game of life and we organized
them so an apple is is an object it's a
representation of a bunch of Fitness
payoffs for example the Apple if I'm
interested in mating Apple's no good if
I'm interested in eating great if I'm
interested in a weapon so so I mean I
could throw it at someone's head but
it's not going to do much damage you
know if I'm you know so there's if but
if I have a
sword a sword well for for mating no
good for eating not really I I could use
it to cut a coconut in half but but I
can't eat the I can't eat the sword for
fighting great but not if you're
fighting against you know a gun and
things like that so every object and we
can recognize I would say on the order
of 30 or 40,000 different objects basic
kinds of objects so what that indicates
is that Evolution has taken all these
hundreds of thousands maybe millions of
Fitness payoff functions and it's not
making one map from the world into our
senses it's making a bunch of different
maps and those different maps are what
we call Objects and our high level
cognition all it does is I I'm hungry
okay I won't be looking for tables I
won't be looking for the moon I'll be
looking for apples and bananas and
things like that those data structures
those representations that have high
Fitness payoffs for for the action of
eating and so visual attention paying
attention to different objects is our
way of switching from this
representation of Fitness payoffs to
this representation of Fitness payoffs
as I need to be able to to do to survive
long enough to reproduce and so that's
so the sort of technical but it's the
reason I bring it out is because this is
brand new it's gotten you a lot of
attention from Yale and so it's an
important thing from the scientific side
to to Really lay to rest that that you
know there's not one mapping that's
required from the world into our senses
by Evolution even if we assume that uh
our our beliefs don't interfere with our
cognition our cognitions don't interfere
with our
perceptions that doesn't entail that we
have to have one mapping um it's just a
false assump assumtion once you let go
of that false assumption then you are
opened up to realize that objects every
object is just a data structure coding
for a whole group of Fitness payoffs and
that's how Evolution deals with this
let's talk about a healthy anger for a
minute if you could okay um then I'll
illustrate these traits okay what is
healthy
anger why are we given healthy anger so
there's a there's a system in our brain
for
anger not for us
mammals what is it there
for is there to protect our boundaries
somebody to invad your space physically
or in the case of human beings
emotionally used to say no stay
out that's the role of healthy anger now
if I repress that healthy anger what
would happen to you to me in life people
would be just trespassing all over me
all the time cuz I had no bun boundaries
so healthy anger is a boundary defense
is that clear mhm okay healthy anger is
a boundary defense it just seems like
one of its uses I'll be honest I don't
know that I'd say it's its only use but
I don't know if Health anger that's its
only use that's his major use just
boundary protection that's his major
that's why it came along animals have it
you're in my
space get how far are you extending that
to loved ones so now if you encroach
upon a loved one well if your loved one
intrudes your space emotionally no I
mean if somebody else is intruding on my
loved one oh yeah that too yeah yeah oh
yeah yeah it's you or your loved ones
anything you cherish absolutely for sure
so that's healthy anger so the role of
anger is to set a boundary between
what's nourishing uh you know to to let
in The Lord of healthy anger is to keep
up what's dangerous and unwelcome right
what's the role of the emotional system
in general is to let in what's healthy
and
nurturing and to keep what was dangerous
and unwelcome
is that fair enough seems good what's
the role of the immune
system same basically exactly it's the
same the role of the immune system is to
keep what what's dangerous and toxic
allowing what's nourishing and
healthy the immune system and the and
the emotional system are not separate
systems they're part and parcel of the
same apparatus they're unified when you
suppress the emotions
you're also suppressing the immune
system when you set when you when you
when you don't know how to defend your
emotional boundaries that also um
weakens your immune boundaries
physiologically it's that simple or if
you repress the anger that anger doesn't
go away doesn't evaporate into the
heavens it turns against you in the form
of depression or self-loading and so on
in the same way the immune system turns
against you and now you have autoimmune
disease and so the traits that were
identified with chronic illness most
chronic illness like cancers aut immune
disease are emotional self-suppression
inability to experience Healy anger
desire to please others to fit in to be
acceptable to be
nice um to be ignoring of your own needs
these are the traits that are over and
over again identified in the literature
where with multiple sclerosis or
rheumato arthritis or with cancer now
there are not the real P these are not
the real person these are adaptive
traits in response to the childood
environment but they take a heavy toll
or take another so-called illness and by
the way the case I'm making is that what
we call illness is actually response to
life so take a take
depression this
so-called biological disease of the
brain what does it mean to depress
something try to push it down to push it
down what gets pushed on what's get
pushed on in depression well I can tell
you I've been depressed what gets pushed
on depression is your natural emotions
everything is flat and nothing matters
nothing has any meaning and that starts
with people pushing them down that's
that's the word that's what the word
means it means to push it down it starts
in childhood with people people having
to push down their emotions why do they
have to push down emotions to fit in
with other people's expectations so and
I don't know the literature on this at
all so there often times then the
depression will just sort of creep in
slowly I always assumed it was tied to
something being stuck in um a bad
relationship a death in the family loss
of a job that there would be some sort
of triggering event well the okay fair
enough if you're in a bad relationship
the healthy response is not depress
ression but to deal with the challenges
in their in their relationship either by
work them out or by leaving their
relationship depression is necessary
outcome the response to the death of a
closed one of a close one is not
depression it's
grief grief is the healthy response we
have a system in our brain for grief by
the way so grief becomes depression when
you're not allowing yourself to grieve
but you don't know how to grieve proper
L yeah and you don't allow to grief
properly because your emotions were
suppressed as a
child and um so yeah we have uh these
healthy systems but they get their
activity gets deformed through our
natural
expectations okay so to stay with
depression for a minute so you're
pushing all this stuff down it starts in
early childhood you're trying to fit in
you want unconditional love you're not
getting it so you have this directive
for attachment and so you begin to oh I
see what I can do if I if I don't yell
scream if I'm not expressing frustration
if I'm the caretaker or whatever that
situation demands then all is well so
now I've learned this adaptive response
to suppress my emotions and over time it
begins
to numb me I would assume I have not
been depressed so but uh so you're
beginning to be numbed but now something
it gets starts to be very extreme and
you what I have heard depression
explained as is just
like the skies are permanently gray you
will never see Joy again and so what
what is breaking in that that like the
beach ball analogy I like right I'm
pushing something under the water but if
I stop pushing it will pop back up and
so if that thing or my emotions is when
you're treating depression let's say
non-pharmacologically is it the release
of the pressure on those emotions to let
them finally come up yeah so the so the
the difference between the pushing the
beach ball down is that I'm doing it
consciously and deliberately but the
repression of emotions that a child um
engages in is not conscious is not
deliberate it's an automatic response
it's unconscious therefore the can't
child can't just let go like that and
then as you say it nums and and becomes
overall a depression the by the way I'm
not against pharmacological treatment
I've taken anti-depressants they have
helped me so I'm not here to Advocate
against
them I could talk about their misuse but
in principle sometimes they're helpful
and occasionally they're life saving and
much of the time they're overprescribed
for way too long and we're not dealing
with the real issues because the
pharmacology deals with the symptom but
it doesn't deal with the underlying
problem so yes the healing of depression
and I talk you know the last the final
part and the longest part of the book
really is is on healing is you have
to reconnect to yourself so you can feel
your emotions that's the treatment of
depression talk to me about reconnecting
how do you reconnect what is that
process well uh first of all you
recognize that you're
disconnected and you notice how that
disconnect shows up in in so many areas
of your
life uh in on the job or in the uh in
your personal relation ships for example
on your relationship to yourself so you
have to become aware and this is where I
talk about disease whether it's physical
or so-called mental um as
teacher not that I recommend illness as
a way of learning to
anybody that's not my pref but if it
happens but if it happens it can
actually teach
you and you can ask yourself what have
you been pushing down and what are the
stories why do I push it down oh I
pushed on emotions CU I've learned I
have the belief that if I'm angry I'm a
bad person well is that really true is a
person that experiences anger really a
bad person um I learned that if I push
down my needs uh then people will love
me do I really be do I really be want to
be loved at the expense of disconnecting
from myself as a child I had no
choice cuz I had to be loved or
connected with otherwise I wouldn't have
survived is it still like that so
basically it's a gradual isn't it though
sorry isn't it like isn't in fact this
is my overarching question and somebody
that has helped so many people through
therapy you probably have the answer or
an Insight but as we become adults yeah
you don't have like other than your
parents should you be lucky enough that
they're still alive but man out in the
outside world PE people do want you to
act a certain way and if you don't
they're not going to be around you like
I'll just be honest if somebody's
throwing a tantrum as an adult I don't
have time for that but an adult doesn't
throw a tantrum are you sure like I have
seen adults throw what I would call the
adult version you've seen adult you have
children and adult body he to throw
Tantrums interesting okay go on you know
so the the adult who throws a tantrum
he's a traumat child who has not
developed
self-regulation I'm not talking about
rep expression of self but regulation so
for example help me differentiate so for
example I throw up at the airline
counter and uh they've um over booked
the airplane okay my healthy response is
disappointment and some degree of
anger I say this is not right that you
did this I want you to redress it you do
something about it
please throw a
tantrum yelling at the poor clerk behind
the counter who had nothing to do with
creating the problem who's just trying
to do her job and trying to help me as
best she can is that that's not a mature
adult that's a child who's midf cortex
of self-regulation has gone offline and
his emotional circuits have taken over
believe me I've been an adult child very
often in my life as my wife could tell
me tell you so uh that's not an adult
okay so then the process there goes back
to connect to yourself figure out why
you're repressing this yeah let go of
those things that are keeping it down
find a way to um be able to regulate
yourself so that they're sort of
contextually uh sensical so that we're
not in unhealthy anger
territory um okay interesting so trauma
is um is an imprint that that makes you
react to the present like you're still a
child essentially I mean that's a very
narrow definition of traum that's one of
his essential aspects and that the
important thing that you said earlier is
it's automatic it's automatic it's unwi
is automatic and it's um and actually
when you look at the brain scans of
deeply traumatized people the prefontal
cortex is totally
asleep and the emotional circuits you
know they're the the the Primitive em
emotional responses are
active this is why so many of so much of
the jail population are traumatized
people that's why end up in jail but
instead of dealing with their trauma and
helping them develop which they could
under the right
circumstances become adult people
self-regulated the jails just make it
worse by the way by the way they torment
people and the way they traumatize
people even further so when I talk about
a trauma in for society informed Society
what if we actually understood trauma
what if you just actually understood it
it would have huge implications for
medical school for medical health
delivery what if when you went to the
doctor with your depression you weren't
just told you got this biological
disease at the brain here's a
pill but they actually said what
happened to you as a child one of the
people I quote in the book is the great
uh
pediatrician psychiatrist neuroscientist
Bruce Barry who just wrote a book with
the Oprah the title of which is called
what happened to you not what's wrong
with you what happened to you what if we
asked that question you know so that
would change medical treatment
completely what if in in the in the in
the prison system or in the legal system
we didn't just say what did you
do but what happened to you that made
you do it now that wouldn't mean that we
allow or encourage antisocial Behavior
but it would mean that we would actually
want to rehab rehabilitate
people and to help them become who they
could be you know that's a very
different legal concept what if in
education it was kids developmental
needs that were put Paramount rather
than their
performance it's interesting how would
you do that functionally what would
School look like well I talk about it a
bit like schools in in Finland there's
much more play there's much more freedom
and they have much better results than
we do so that in other words we honored
what are the right results to look at a
child who's curious who wants to learn
who's
engaged who's um respectful of
others um who is
confident um that would be the right
results then you don't have to worry
about stuffing knowledged on their
throats why because they want to
learn they want to learn so you don't
have to punish them you don't have to
reward them you just present them with
the opportunities to learn and they will
that's a natural human attribute we kill
that in this
Society there's an application to Free
Will right we live life thinking we make
decisions all the time and are
responsible for our decisions and also
kind of determined and defined by those
so if I ask you what do you want to have
for lunch and I offer you five different
things and you make a choice then your
choice is somehow your identity this is
like what you what you care about and if
I told you right now that I could
predict what you're going to choose an
hour before you made a choice a day 20
years before it kind of takes away some
of our identity in a way but
also kind of gives us meaning because it
says okay there's actually a narrative
that we carry with us throughout life
and now now the choice has become really
something that defines who we are not
just the moment of but as a person in
the world so I always about like Free
Will understanding it predicting it and
also using it to change things so if you
if you think that okay all my choices
are kind of determined do I have any
meaning to my life the answer is they're
not determined we do have control over
them and that's what makes us kind of
human so you believe that we do have
free will or you believe that it's
totally different than how we're
thinking of it and we have to totally
reimagine it so there's like two kind of
moments that need to be addressed one is
whether we do actually have this moment
of spark that happens when the choice is
totally arbitrary and we have like a
choice I do believe that we have that
free will kind of a TOS of a coin where
something gets determined but what's
interesting is the moment where we
become aware of the Free Will Choice as
in I ask you you sit in the restaurant
and I ask you do you want the fish or
the steak there's this moment like you
have two options and now you're about to
make a choice what do you want steak
steak for sure you had a second now
where you had to look at all the options
I gave you only two and make a decision
so now at some point if I asked you when
did you make the choice you would say
well maybe as soon as I finish the
sentence maybe I would maybe you would
say a a fraction of a second afterwards
the question is a how far before did we
know the answer to that also did there
was there anything I could have said
differently that would have make you say
the fish and most importantly what's the
gap between the moment you would tell me
that's the moment I chose and the moment
that you actually chose and apparently
there is a gap and this Gap is what we
call the illusion of free will the
moment where you say that's the moment T
this is t zero this is when it happened
and I can look at your brain and say you
know what actually here we already knew
that you're going to choose or even like
even if you want to take it one for step
we can actually stimulate your brain and
make you choose this thing and I would
tell you and say who made the choice and
you say I definitely make the choice
myself this was my decision and I say
well you know what here's me zapping
your brain before making you say fish
here's me zapping your brain what do you
zap it with trans cranial magnetic
simulation so this is not me but there
are people who know do this so what
would you do can you really do the steak
fish one there's the only demo of that
that I saw was one person basically
having a little box and they have
buttons and have to choose whether you
want to press the left or the right
and people sit there and they press left
right right left left for like 10
minutes and then someone asked them was
it your choice which button to press at
any point say of course and then you
zoom out and you see a person sitting
with a TMS like this machine that looks
at their brain and basically playing
like a puppeteer left right get the [ __ ]
out of here that's real that's real and
what's interesting isn't that you can do
that this is not surprising we know that
we can actually zap your brain and make
you move your head what's surprising is
that you would tell me it was my choice
like you would you would believe that it
was your decision you wouldn't question
the fact what you did was your decision
and this to me the interesting part that
we we kind of have this way with our
brain to always defend it and always say
whatever I did I wanted to do if I made
this thing it wasn't my choice and now
we know that it wasn't necessarily your
choice that things affected you that
things made you do what you did and you
will always claimed that it was your
decision so we can actually show you
that you're not really fully how people
respond when you show them funny ER they
mostly try to defend Free Will so they
try to argue with me and you know I show
them the video of me changing things and
they say no no no we have this
experiment where we bring them to the
lab and we just tell them things we say
okay what do you want to eat after the
experiment what do you want to sit here
or there we ask them to make decisions
and we don't really tell them anything
just say take decisions like sit here or
there do you want this pen or that pen
do you want the light on or off and then
we ask them after the experiment how
many choices you made the people who
experienced us toying with their free
will think that they made hundreds of
choices they made about 14 but they
really feel that okay I had so many
choices I controlled everything this was
my decision they kind of tried to grasp
into the idea of Free Will and say I had
a lot of in my life and I made them they
become a little more religious they
become a little bit more ethical a lot
of things happen to you when you feel
that what's in question is your identity
that is so interesting and I've heard a
lot of these studies and I have not
heard where you're literally playing
Congo drums on whether they do the right
and left I've seen the one where um you
know they're about to do it before they
do and so you turn the buttons on
essentially to buzz them and tell them
not to press which is hilarious um but I
didn't know about that one so
interesting so okay you're a guy with
deep background in narrative teach a
screenwriting course for God's sake so
help me understand how you know that you
can manipulate the brain and yet you
still believe in free will but it sounds
like you believe in Free Will in the way
that it's tied to your own
self-narrative so here's the idea I feel
that ER there's a lot of things that
affect our decisions the temperature in
the room the height of the chair the
weight of the book we're holding a lot
of things and this is studied by a lot
of people in many many ways that show
time and again that you can actually
change a person's behavior and we can
list those things so someone can take
them and now have a kind of you know
list of things that they can apply if
they want to have better interactions
with people what temperature should the
room be what they should do so there we
know that we know that thing and at the
same time we still live life as if it's
our decisions entirely so we know that I
can trick you by you know making the
price of the food $66.99 rather than
seven and you would think it's six not
seven that's like the simplest one in
the book and all of us know it and it
still works taking that to a larger
scale we know that there's hundreds of
thousands of biases that affect our
brain and even if I tell you what they
are you will still work the same way so
free will is becoming interesting to me
when we learn all of those things and we
say okay then who am I kind of what's
the what's who's in who's in charge
who's the Puppeteer in this example and
the reality is that there what we learn
is that there are more than one
Puppeteer in our brain there's many many
and every day one at the guy wakes up
and so one day we're this guy one day
we're this guy and they're kind of vying
for dominance they fight and they
compete they kind of make a decision
together they they vote and ultimately
we protect the person who spoke last and
we say this is who I am and to me what's
interesting is that we can now actually
show all the characters we can show them
fighting we can tell you that there's
more people in your brain and in doing
so we can actually allow you to really
manifest different sides of yours so you
know maybe that you're making better
choices in the morning and I make better
choic in the evening you might know that
you're making better decisions when
you're hungry and I'm when I'm full when
you're talking to your friends when
you're alone so we can now profile your
brain so if somebody's watching this
right now and they're thinking okay wait
do I make better decisions when I'm
hungry or full night day what what are
you looking for and what can they look
for at home so I would say what we do
with with a lot of people who are kind
of in senior positions in companies that
want to actually make decisions better
we have a protocol that's a little bit
tedious so it's not easy to do it but
I'll tell you what it is and then you
can think of ways to maybe try it
yourself so we have them basically walk
for a week with a diary and make choices
and just write them down so tell us like
you know I had this fish or the steak
for lunch and I chose this and this how
I Chosen and they also write whether
they were happy or not with the choice
now this is done the way they would do
it normally but we also add one more
thing we put EG cap on their head all
day for more than 24 hours so they work
with something that measures their brain
activity and there's moments where we
have to replace the batteries there's a
lot of like gaps there but altogether we
have them walk through life with both
living life the way they do and reflect
on the the choices but also have us look
at their brain and what we do at the end
of the three days one week as long as
they would do that it's kind of
uncomfortable and embarrassing sometimes
H we asked them to kind of look at all
the choices and tell us which ones were
good which ones were bad and then we
look at their brains and we see what was
their brain looking like what what did
it look like when they made choices that
they were happy with and we sometimes
see that there are things in their brain
that are kind of repeated so maybe they
make choices more using this part of the
brain that I'm I'm trying to simplify it
but looking at parts of the brain that
are more emotional rather than like
rational we see that they activate more
parts of the brain that are buried deep
inside it has to do with reflection
rather than like thinking so we kind of
and we tell them you know here's what we
learn about you you are better in this
and that state so that's one thing so
it's kind of not easy to apply because
you still have to have this thing on
your head right so not every one can do
that but at least people in senior
positions who feel that you know their
ches are critical come to us and they
say Okay help me I want to know who I am
better now what about the the study you
did where you've got the cyclist on the
bike they're going hard hard hard hard
hard and you watch for certain brain
states where you know okay they're going
to quit and then you use that
information over time to get them to
delay quitting farther and farther how
so behind that lies a the idea that the
brain is kind of like a muscle and
specifically there's a part of the brain
that we really care about it's the part
it's doing self-control so if you think
about it in simple way to look at is
that you start running you go running uh
the first mile your legs say let's run
and the brain that controls them says
let's run and another part with says no
problem at all after one mile your legs
say it's a little bit painful but the
part say other controls them say keep
going after 10 miles the legs say I want
to quit and the other part say no keep
going and there's like a battle there
and at some point you're going to break
now when you're going to break depends
on a lot of things your muscles but it
also depends on this kind of control
coming from the front of your brain that
overrides your experience your pain and
if we can see this moment where you
breake the moment where you stop despite
the fact that you can do a little more
we can come back to you tomor and say
let's do the same thing you did
yesterday have you run only this time
when you get to the moment when we see
that you're about to break we're going
to play a sound we're going to tell you
that we can see that you're about to
break and we ask you to just continue
for one more minute at this moment that
is beyond where you did yesterday
what in that moment how do you appeal to
them is like come on [ __ ] like
you got this or that's basically it's
right there there's a question in sports
for a while why is it that people H do
better when they play home game versus
outside game like what what is it about
your mom being in the audience that
makes you win the game like we we in
theory they shouldn't matter like
throwing the basketball should be the
same but somehow we know that if your
friends are there if you're feeling
better we know that people do better
when they're already kind of winning
there's a lot of things that affect our
brain and what we try to understand
right now is where is it in the brain
what is this part of the brain that gets
better when your like when your emotions
are are highlighted or heightened and
now we're seeing it that is so this is
life like what you're talking about
right now boys and girls at home I'm
telling you there's a banality to being
an entrepreneur there is a willingness
to suffer to being an entrepreneur to
being a great mom like whatever it is
that you're trying to do suffering is
involved and it literally like the being
able to extend your break point is what
it's about and when I read what I was
going to say is that we we all face
those moments when the alarm buses at
6:00 a.m. we set the alarm at 10: p.m.
and suddenly in the morning we're
different people like we're not the
person who wants to wake up anymore and
it's the same brain that set the alarm
at 10 p.m. but now suddenly at 6:00 a.m.
we're not the same guy this is the
moment like that we have to make a
choice when we're going running when
we're about to eat a cake there's like a
Tasty Cake and we're on a diet and we
say oh I shouldn't eat the cake but
there's a conflict and now is the moment
where those two parts of the brain come
to life and the more you know about
yourself the more you aware of those
situations the better you can do in
controlling them and the more you know
about yourself you can do better in all
of those tasks and that's kind of the
ultimate thing that that's why we're
here we're giving you the knowledge and
once you know it doesn't work anymore
once you know that 699 isn't seven it's
harder for it to work so just knowing is
enough for people to do better to know
that it's in your capacity to change and
that's what we want like how does
somebody become more self how do they
begin to identify those things that are
particular to them so that they can
extend their breaking point or so that
they can you know improve whatever so so
all we need to do is we need to
communicate science in tangible way so
people would know all the options I said
there's 100 doz of options but there are
actually a couple of hundreds of biases
that we humans have I can give you
examples in a second once you know them
they don't work anymore so the job of
scientist is to just translate the
knowledge of the brain into words that
they can be then spoken into an audience
who then lives by them and that's it so
all we need to do is just do this speak
to people and list the biases then it
doesn't work anymore then then at least
when it happens you become a little bit
better in controlling that that's all we
need it's pretty simple once you know it
it doesn't work so how about I mean
let's use an example from your life so I
love the story by the way of you're
about to be published in nature it's
your first big break in science I me
this is really going to set up your
career and then someone wakes you up
from a nap and you basically say yeah
recording dreams is possible you can't
take it back you're like wait wait
that's not quite what I meant and it
goes crazy but the part that I love is
um Christopher Nolan calls you up and
says hey I just did this movie Inception
you're now the dream recording guy uh I
want you to come with me and do a
worldwide tour which would be a huge
break for you and just be I'm sure money
and certainly
notoriety um and you had to think about
it even though you knew going means a
entally reinforcing this opinion that I
actually don't agree with um but turning
it down means that I pass up that
opportunity what what did you go through
in the 24 hours before you gave the
answer so this is so to give you the
full story I'm finishing my PhD I have
just decideed what I do next am I
continuing in science do I go like back
to being a hacker this like a moment of
a folk in my life and suddenly this
comes this moment where the end of my
5year PhD is getting a lot of attention
but all wrong this my career hinges of
this thing then I have suddenly an
option to actually own this thing and
become this dream expert even though
it's based on a lie right um so I I was
fortunate enough to have enough check
and balances that I didn't really have
to to go far with that so here's the
interesting reflection that I have right
now so I knew it's impossible to look at
people's dreams and I that I kind of set
it in a sleepy State and created this
like
amazing story for people that scientists
are not recording
dreams and the mistake was to leave this
to say you know it's not possible I'm
not going to own this thing even though
the world cares about it so if anything
can be learned from these things that
the world really wanted to have people
record dreams because that's why it's
such a big thing because people cared
about it it was in dreams are
interesting and I went and I said it's
impossible and I want to kill this story
this was the mistake interesting 3 years
later I'm sitting at home now 2013 and I
got a call from BBC again BBC were the
first on to kind of you know let the
story go ER away and they call me again
and they say uh Professor surf we want
you to comment on dream recording and
the possibility of doing that and I say
guys are you kidding me we're done with
that this is not true like let's not
even begin going down say no no we know
that you cannot do that but we want you
to comment on the work of Professor
kamitani from Japan who's doing it right
now
so someone in Japan didn't know that it
was impossible he just didn't hear me
going anywhere public and saying it's
impossible so he just did it so three
years after I said it was impossible
someone did it and two years after that
I joined so now half the thing we do in
my lab is actually looking at people's
dreams so we the mistake I made wasn't
to say something is possible when it was
not it was to say something was
impossible before I knew that because I
think that science is all about going to
those dark places and trying to find
what's impossible my mistake was to say
was impossible before I was sure about
that so I should have said we don't know
yet we didn't do it yet but we should
investigate I was quick to say I didn't
do it it's impossible so I delayed
things by three years five years after
I'm doing it right now dude can I just
shake your hand I [ __ ] love that so
much like
that's like most people cannot look at
something like that and say the mistake
that I made was actually in the opposite
direction and I should have been Bolder
I should have made a wiser Proclamation
and then to to actually join the team
that's so cool dreams is something that
I was told not to study now that's what
I do in my lab every day now I'm never
saying something is impossible before
I'm certain that it's impossible wow I
love that I'd love it even more if you
if you would go so far as to say nothing
is truly impossible then you'd really
have me I I'll go without that so like
you mentioned that I teach screenwriter
and I screenwriting and I and I work
with TV the reason I do that is because
I feel that the best ideas for my
research come from those hours with the
kids right play
with the fellows at the American Film
Institute who writes science fiction
from movies that that that inspired me
like the Matrix you mentioned that like
this is inspired us we were kids of 1999
what happened then affected us Star Trek
affected my D generation the best paper
that I ever written has a thousand of
citation the episode of Limitless that I
worked on last week and you know came
out has 5 million people watching it and
those are the kids who are going to be
me in 20 years and if they think oh this
is maybe possible they're going to do
that you ask me how to change Behavior
this is how to know what the
possibilities are for instance I'm
relatively bright and educated and until
about 18 months ago I I just thought you
make as much US dollar as you can you
put it under your mattress and you're
fine and then I was introduced to the
idea of inflation and how even 2%
becomes problematic really fast 7%
becomes terrifying and 15% you're
devastated in less than a decade I was
like what so that put me on this mad
scramble as somebody who never wanted to
learn about investing I was like I'm
good at making money I have no interest
in learning about Finance or investing
and every time I would speak to my money
manager I was like this is dumb I don't
I don't want to learn about calls and
puts and options it's so complicated so
given how complicated it is I just want
to trust the government so I would
choose it out of laziness and Terror yes
so we're all prone to seek out cognitive
expedience and I would say even the
dollar itself you don't want dollars per
se you don't want a definite amount of
dollars you want purchasing power but I
don't realize it you're right yes but I
don't realize it that's right as a
matter of cognitive experience you think
in terms of dollars and said and this is
where you get deeper into what is money
money is also a psycho technology it's
like literacy or numeracy it's a
software implementation we put into our
brain we use it to communicate negotiate
plan I mean how many times a day do you
think in dollars it's something that's
deeply embedded in our cognitive
Machinery um and that gets into my
argument later about why Central Banking
is kind of a computer virus on the human
brain but I think what would be an
appropriate Avenue here is to think okay
you've been pursuing dollars your whole
life what you're actually pursuing is
what those dollars can get you that's
what money is Right money is the most
exchangeable good you can think of it as
a call option on anything the market can
produce so any good any service any
knowledge human time anything people can
do any service anyone can render for you
money is a call option on that and
that's why it's the most valuable or
Apex good in a Marketplace so what It
ultimately means is that money is the
most important form of
property so what we're all really after
all of our businesses our lifestyles our
governments these are property
strategies if you will these are ways to
reach consensus on property to
distribute property in an equitable way
in a way that we all determine to be um
fair right fair and Equitable
so it will probably help here to we're
setting up a lot of rabbit holes we'll
go into the property Rabbit Hole first
we typically think property is the house
the car bar the stock whatever that's
not what property is property is a
relationship it's an exclusively
acknowledged relationship between the
owner and the asset right the fact that
you own this house and no one else can
come into it if they did you have
recourse to uh the government right the
apparatus of compulsion and coercion you
can call the police force and say hey
this guy is violating my property please
remove him that is the foundation of
civilization when we can go and take our
most personal form of property which is
ourselves right and this is something
we're talking offline self- ownership
this is the foundational Axiom on which
all of this libertarian capitalistic
philosophy is based um you own yourself
only you can move your arm only you can
move your leg right you can't even sell
that property you can't trade away your
conscious or your willpower to anyone
else you own it and it's inalienable
cannot be traded away what you choose to
do with that self- ownership you go out
into the world and you voluntarily add
value to something right you plant a
garden you build a business uh or you
trade the fruits of your labor with
other self-owned people that's how we
create wealth right that's what enables
us to focus specialize and create wealth
so the basis of civilization is that
relationship between the owner and their
asset which we call
property money is just a reflection of
the wealth in the world right the
property that we have created through
this capitalistic
process when you give one
organization right this is all based on
free market dynamics but when you give
one organization legal Monopoly
privileges which is what the central
bank is to now monopolize money and
control its
issuance they have a mechanism to
violate the property rights of all other
economic actors that are using dollars
that are denominating assets in dollars
so this is something that's so
fundamental that it it contradicts the
premise of self- ownership when we give
power away to a single institution that
can arbitrarily at a political whim uh
choose to violate the relationships of
all economic actors using that money so
that's a bit of the what is property
rabbit hole we could go into gold next
well first let's go back to what you
said that nobody would voluntarily
choose a fiat currency and the reasoning
behind that is okay you have a portion
of the total whatever that portion is so
the number of dollars that you have
represents a dollar of the a percentage
of the total if they can change the
total at any time they can dilute you
and so your perception is that the value
of your house is going up but the
reality is the value the buying power of
the dollar is going down that's correct
and so it creates
a the the mental equivalent of an
optical illusion yes so you think oh my
God I'm winning this is amazing uh but
in reality you have opted into a system
where human beings yeah like you said
arbitrarily make a decision as to
whether or not they're going to inflate
that by just and this was I I am
embarrassed by how recently I thought
this I actually asked somebody and this
I think lesson year ago I said where do
they take the bags of money that they're
printing like whose doorstep are they
dropping them off at and of course the
the answer is it's a database and it's
just a data entry but even that whose
data entry are they
changing you're right the this is an
important Point actually uh the US
dollar is a one node database it's on an
SQL server at the Federal Reserve so
it's the list of who owns what dollars
and there's one group of individuals
that update it for everyone else
arbitrarily um and to your your earlier
Point uh about inflation I think it's
best to think about this as like a cap
table right when you own a business and
you have shares in a business that
you're buying and selling you wouldn't
arbitrarily give one group the ability
to just issue new shares whenever they
want and dilute everyone else that would
clearly be asymmetric and unfair to to
the shareholders yeah that's exactly the
model we have in money exactly right
that you can think it's another way to
think about money maybe is that it's a
share in the Capital stock of the world
right my share of the US dollar supply
gives me a fraction of whatever US
Dollars can buy it's again if money is a
reflection of the total Capital pool or
the total
savings um that's what it effectively
represents in its purchasing power but
when one group can just twist the rules
to favor themselves and disfavor
everyone else you have a dise equilibri
structure or an asymmetric monopolized
structure um so hopefully that explains
inflation and property a little bit it
does um putting a real fine point on why
it's theft
though because it theft implies it
implies ill intent I don't know if
that's what you intend in fact let's
start there do you intend that that ill
intent is a foot uh I would say it's
more the arbitrariness right I I don't
necessarily want to dig into the intent
so much as mechanically what happens
it's an arbitrary redistribution of
wealth or property from one group to
another so they're diluting the property
rights of dollar holders anyone
depending on the dollar to store its
value is being victimized and those
getting access to the freshly produced
or printed money first are the
victimizers they're the ones actually
extracting wealth from that group and
this is uh especially abhorent because
because if you think who depends on the
dollar to store its value the most the
poor those living on fixed income
pensioners retirees right people living
paycheck to paycheck these are the
people being stolen from so I'm not
going to make a claim about intent
there's a lot of arguments about oh no
Central Banking it they don't mean to be
doing what they're doing they think
they're doing what's in everyone's best
interest fine I'll accept the argument
but
mechanically those depending on the
dollar are being robbed by central banks
and those that receive the newly printed
money first and who receives the newly
printed money and how is that decided
and printed again is by changing numbers
in a database yes so uh a lot of the
beneficiaries are asset holders right um
name some assets real estate stocks how
so I own both of those how do I benefit
because I'm terrified of inflation right
so why am I not excited because when
money the store value function of money
is compromised which is what's happening
when when we inflict inflation that the
dollar is not holding its value over
time people Market actors are smart
right they're going to move into a
reliably scarce asset the most
predominant store value in the world
today are stocks frankly so stocks real
estate all these things that are
reliably scarce in an inflationary
environment become store value assets so
people that hold those assets as a
larger percentage of their total net
worth Will benefit at the expense of
those relying on dollars to hold their
value because what database entry is
changed in that scenario it's not like
they gave me more money for owning those
right but your home will appreciate
right and it's not based on supply and
demand so much as it is based on Central
Bank
policy so they've if you think about
more dollars chasing the same amount of
stuff it's kind of the simple way to
think about it this implies higher home
prices and it's not a consequence of
supply and demand in the marketplace per
se it's just that diminished unit of
economic perception that's part of the
quote unquote printing of money is the
government buying like um corporate
bonds and things like that yes it's
become that's how they actually get it
into the system right they go and buy a
bunch of things whether it's making sure
that the California government doesn't
default on their uh bonds and things
like that um and then they actually buy
things off of companies right that's
right and this is a very I like to say
Central Banking and the fiat currency
complex is as clear as mud and twice as
dirty nice so it's very uh confounding
to say the least but um essentially the
government is issuing new debt right
which the Federal Reserve is buying so
they're injecting dollars into the
economy uh that way it's become more
exotic recently where the fed's actually
spinning up special purpose vehicles to
buy corporate debt directly um I think
equities as well and so what's happening
is there's this confiscation of wealth
taking place and then the proceeds are
being doled out arbitrarily so you could
think of the the fed or um government
beneficiaries of fed policy as picking
winners and losers so this is
antithetical to capitalism right which
capitalism is much more darwinian right
survival of the fittest if the business
is producing profits and satisfying
wants for people then people will pay
for it voluntarily and that business
will grow if the business is
unsatisfactory it's not delivering uh
good goods or services to people people
will abstain from doing business with
that entity and it will shrink and fail
and when that business fails its capital
will be reassimilated into the
marketplace and put to higher and best
use that's what capitalism does but when
you have this arbitrary Avenue of conf
confiscation and and wealth
redistribution it it styes that
evolutionary impulse that capitalism
gives us so you end up with zombie
companies right and it's funny that they
use that term zombie um which is I had a
good conversation with a guy about this
how this has entered the modern
mythology or
lexicon uh interestingly right after
1971 which is when we went off the gold
standard the term zombie became much
more widely used but zombie companies
are that they're lost producing
Enterprises they're not satisfying
anyone's wants but they're kept on life
support by Central Bank policy so we
have Central Bankers printing money to
uh harvest the productive surplus of the
economy stealing from the productive
economy and then doing it out to these
certain entities that are producing
losses and keeping them alive so it's um
very polluting in that way if you will
it's it's it's it's toxifying to the
darwinian process and I think that's why
it degrades reads uh everything that's
Downstream from economics like politics
and culture Etc all right I want to walk
through one thread that all of this is
me taking liberally from you so tell me
where I go astray here um but this was a
chain of events that I was like oh my
God I now actually understand what's
going on and this is terrifying so
you've got um World War II happens and
you've got
people invading countries and raiding
their gold stores because why would you
invade if you're not going to get
something if you can't steal something
these are your words so you invade a
country you steal their gold so people
are like [ __ ] I don't want to get
invaded so they started or if I do I
don't want them to be able to steal my
gold so they started sending gold to the
US US ends up storing all this gold for
people has a massive amount of gold and
gold historically basically money as we
think of it the the tangible dollars and
bills you would store gold in a
protected Warehouse somewhere and they
would give you a
Amy started tring it's as andh now the
US Post World War II has all this gold
coming in and we then after World War II
have a the Breton Woods uh convention
I'm not sure what it was exactly but
they say hey we've got all this gold now
we're going to make the dollar the um
Central Reserve currency M Global
Reserve currency excuse me and but it's
all backed by all the gold that we have
so hey we're good but in 1971 for
reasons that you will have to explain uh
Nixon decided to take us off of the gold
standard so previously to that if you
had a dollar you could actually go
redeem it for gold yes now you couldn't
and it was Fiat it was by decree I say
that this dollar has value and therefore
it has value uh the problem is that's
married to something that happened at
some point in the early 1900s that you
will have to explain the beast from
Jackal Island where we decided
uh to create a central bank which isn't
owned by the government right correct
which I still can't believe it's true
the Federal Reserve is not the Federal
Government Federal and it has no
reserves [ __ ] crazy like this is
where I'm like language matters well
played that's very good way to get me
think that this is a government all
right so we now break with the gold
standard and so it's we can literally
print money so as me the ignorant guy
that spent his whole life trying to make
money knows nothing about investing I
make the money I think I am safe
actually putting it under my bed only to
realize that there's actually somebody
that has the ability to go prugo Burr
right and they they can press a button
and it just makes more money and
therefore with more money floating
around you've got more people competing
to buy that loaf of bread or whatever so
the cost goes up as one would naturally
expect and so now even though I
theoretically have my assets are going
up and yay I have more money but I I
either have the same buying power so
it's just an illusion or I actually have
less buying power and it's actually
devastating and so now we get into this
crazy making Loop of it seems like I
should be getting ahead but I'm not
getting ahead I think of inflation as
being a natural act but really in the
background are people making these
decisions and and we will grant them
that they are being kind they're trying
to do something nice they're trying to
level out volatility if I had to guess
is actually their motivation uh but they
level out that volatility by um creating
debt cycles and devaluing the currency
which you are saying mechanistically it
just isn't different than theft um but
when people think
of redistribution of wealth as a good
thing is that just another crazy making
thing or are people right to think that
no this is good we should be
redistributing the wealth well that's a
good long question um I would start with
yeah so let's do this wealth
redistribution first of all no one ever
thinks it's a good thing when they're
the Target no one ever no one ever wants
to be redistributed from no one ever
voluntarily gets redistributed from that
would be giving up value or wealth or
capital for nothing in exchange I don't
think anyone I don't say no one ever but
typically no one ever will enter that um
agreement let's say so maybe we'll this
Arc we'll do what is gold how did we get
gold why and how Central Banking was
introduced and then we'll get into um
really what's happened post 1971
so and I love this question by the way
what is money right this is the name of
the show and this is the I think the key
to incepting these ideas into people or
at least getting people to question
their socioeconomic reality such that
they can peel back the layers of this
onion and see through some of these
euphemisms we've been getting to or
we've been
given
and one definition of money this is the
austan economic definition is that it's
a Universal Medium of exchange so again
capitalism is built on free exchange
it's built on voluntary action right
self- ownership you go out into the
world create things of value you trade
them with other self-owned people the
result is we create more output per unit
of input we become more efficient acting
in concert than we do acting in
isolation this is the division of labor
this is the reason wealth and riches
exist because we specialize and we trade
with one
another in that process something
necessarily becomes most exchangeable or
most tradable right by definition we're
all trading with one another there's
going to be a single asset of that uh
flurry of trading activity that is the
most liquid asset the most tradable or
exchangeable
asset that is money that's how money
emerges in the marketplace it is not a
government creation has nothing to do
with government other than the fact that
they monopolize it and try to control it
to control people um and when you look
at money from that first principal
standpoint and this is from the Austrian
School there's a deep Long literature on
this you'll see that money needs to
exhibit five Key properties and this is
an important
point we typically think that we want
the thing right we want the table we
want the car whatever but we don't we
want the services the thing renders to
us so you could think almost in the
world of Economics there are no such
thing as Goods if you will I know there
are Goods I know there's tables I know
there's cars but what we are after is
what services those goods provide to us
so when we look at money the five
properties that market actors
voluntarily favor you could also think
of as the five Services we seek from
money are divisibility durability
recognizability portability scarcity so
I'll walk through each one of these
money needs to be divisible pretty
obvious you want to transact at
different scales you want to buy coffee
in the same day that you go and buy a
house right so you'd like to able to
give someone a coin or send someone a
wire for 10 million bucks bu a house
pretty obvious um money needs to be
durable in that it's not going to
corrode over time if you put a bunch of
gold in a safe it's not going to
decompose right the halflife on gold is
way longer than uh matters to any of us
if you put a bunch of oranges in the
safe and you were using that as money
that's going to rot pretty quickly so
clearly durability matters money needs
to be recog recognizable which means
that each trading party can verify its
authenticity so at every transaction and
I'm handing you dollars you can certify
either with that little pen they mark on
dollars to make sure it's uh a
legitimate you know US Federal Reserve
issued dollar or if it was gold back in
the day they had different techniques
for a saying uh the Gold's authenticity
making sure it wasn't Leed plated with
gold uh in fact the name sound money
which you've probably heard in your
explorations of the rabbit hole that
referred to the sound a gold coin made
when dropped a certain way so you could
verify its authenticity by the sound it
would
create um and this is another reason we
introduced coinage and currency because
to verify money at every transaction is
a very significant transaction cost
transaction costs are decipi of to trade
right if we want to increase trade and
increase wealth we want to reduce
transaction cost so by abstracting into
currency or putting it in a warehouse
and trusting the warehouse custodian we
can now trade much more quickly and more
efficiently so that I mean that's that's
one aspect of money that coinage and
currency helped was
recognizability money also needs to be
portable pretty obvious you want to be
able to move it across space right if
I'm buying something in another city I
need to get my gold or dollars to the
other City to give it to the recipient
finally and most importantly
money has to be scarce and now we
typically think scarce is purely a
supply side function that's not what
scarcity means scarcity occurs when
demand outstrips Supply so when there is
more appetite for the thing then there
is a supply of the thing okay so oxygen
pretty important for human life there's
no price on it why not scarce not scar
scarce the supply way outstrips the
Demand right um something like diamonds
not that important to human existence
yet it has a huge price because the
demand way outstrips the supply the
unique thing about scarcity and money is
that money is always scarce because it's
a call option on everything all the
capital all the savings humans can
produce the heart of man is Never
Satisfied we always want more therefore
money is always scarce by definition
so what Market actors tend to favor is
the money that has the most inelastic
supply so this means a supply that is
least subject to
change uh by The Willpower of
others that is what Market actors will
Zero in on and here there's another
number of ways to think about this
um time energy second law of
thermodynamics we cannot create
nordstory energy right we're sacrificing
time and energy to earn money you would
naturally want the thing you're
sacrificing this absolutely scarce time
and energy for to be similarly
absolutely scarce that would be the
ideal money right something that can't
be created or
destroyed
um
with
money to gloss over a little bit of
History Monet Metals best satisfied
divisibility durability recognizability
portability those were just and we've
tried a lot of experiments we've had
seashells we've had glass beads we've
had cattle we've we've used all kinds of
things as money right Natural Market
processes determine that monetary metals
were the most satisfactory across the
first four properties or services that
money can render to us of the monetary
medals gold was the most scarce meaning
specifically its Supply was the least
vulnerable to change no matter how much
effort time energy we poured into
producing gold its Supply increased the
slowest and the most predictably so this
gave us a medium into which we could
store economic value and we would know
with relative certainty that it would
only change by about 2% year-over-year
so this gave gold the store value
function we traditionally only associate
with
it um that's great right gold is great
gold is good money it's been good money
5,000 years uh served a lot of purposes
but the big hang up with gold is lack of
portability right we talked about this a
little bit earlier you want to be able
to move it across space obviously but
Gold's heavy it's physical right it's
very expensive too secure um it actually
in one way it's beneficial and that you
can store a lot of economic I value in a
small area and sort of uh amortise the
security cost around it but when you
need to move it that's when there's a
lot of risk involved and this was the
impetus for introducing what you alluded
to earlier were the warehousing
businesses so a private Enterprise a
free market function came to be where a
warehouse would take custody of the gold
give you the warehouse receipt you can
go and transact it it's as good as gold
right you have a call option on gold
effectively this was an introduced to
augment the portability of gold well
those warehouses became Banks those
Banks became central banks and this is
all again I'm not laying out a nefarious
scheme here this is the
economics the economies of scale
associated with gold it is more
efficient to centralize custody of this
heavy bulky metal and issue abstractions
in
it it's more efficient to transact in
that model than it is with physical gold
so that's what drives this process the
problem is you now have to trust the
custodian you've introduced what we call
counterparty risk there's a counterparty
to that trade I can trade this paper
with everyone and it's as good as gold
until I go to redeem the gold from the
warehouse and there's the Gold's not
there or they won't redeem it or a
fraction of what this paper represents
is
available um so that is kind of the
history of gold into Central
Banking and I
guess the history of Central Banking is
quite interesting
um I would say that you
know maybe this is an important Point
too that people were all seeking
something for
nothing I think this is kind of
unavoidable this is the entrepreneurial
path right you've got a problem you've
got a niche
you want to scratch that itch or solve
that problem with less effort right the
the the really successful entrepreneur
is almost brilliantly lazy right he's
identifying a problem and finding the
quicker way a better way to solve it
when he makes that Discovery he can now
sell that product or that service or
that method whatever it is into the
marketplace and because everyone wants
something for nothing they will reward
him right this is the entrepreneurial
process so that's great we all want
something for nothing and it's a a valid
Noble Pursuit the problem I think is
when we cross that line of self-
ownership or of morality and we start
seeking something for nothing from
others right someone else has planted
the garden someone else has built the
business someone else has mined the gold
and instead of me performing the work to
create that value or earn that value I
figured that I can just go out and
co-opt or coers or take that property or
that asset from that person that's a
path for me to get something for nothing
but it's the immoral path right so I see
this as kind of like the driving force
in most Human Action we're trying to get
something for nothing but there's a line
that can be
crossed and we talked earlier about self
ownership I think that's the line when
you violate the self ownership of
someone else that's the
problem Central Banking sort of came
about as this natural institution to
augment the technological limitations of
gold it wasn't portable
right but when you put that much power
you concentrate that much power into one
institution it becomes noxious it
becomes corrupting it becomes uh
irresistible for some people of lower
Scruples anywhere in the world to seek
that seed of power and this is what I
think has really started to deteriorate
the monetary system and if you look at
the history of Central Banking it's a
lot
of leveraging one another right you know
you talked about a lot of the gold
ending up in the United States this was
also preor War II A lot of it has to do
with the balance of payments among
countries which are just inflows and
outflows of capital but particularly
when things got hot in Europe a lot of
gold started coming into the US and
again with when we with that much power
or money in one
place we became the world superpower and
so we stepped on to the the theater of
war at the end of World War II and we
declared ourselves
Victorious rightfully or wrongfully so
you can make your own judgments about
that and then we rewrote the rules of
global banking to favor the United
States where the dollar is pegged to
gold all of the currencies are Peg to
the dollar so what this gave the United
States is the infamous exorbitant
privilege as it's been called to be able
to print
money we could send these paper
certificates out into the world and have
them send us goods and services and
exchange add infinitum right until the
system breaks
down countries had the option to call
our Bluff though they could accept these
dollars but they could redeem them for
gold if they thought we're being
irresponsible with with the monetary
policy for printing too much money well
countries started calling our Bluff
after
1944 uh we had this huge economic boom
and then again glossing over some
history I think it was Germany that
tried to repatriate some gold so they
tried to redeem dollars for gold and
then we had the infamous 1971 Nixon
shock that said no more gold redemptions
and from that point on and it was said
to be a temporary measure as governments
so often and infam infamously say who
was it that said that there's nothing
more permanent than a temporary
government
solution here we are exactly 50 years
later in
2021 um deep into this Global fiat
currency experiment led by the United
States um and things have really come
off the hinges i' I've Point people on
this topic to this website WTF happened
in
1971. this is not just economic right
this
is It's socioeconomic there's you know
obesity rates have spiked um drug
addiction
suicide clearly indebtedness right when
you think this is tied to coming off the
gold standard as the austrians wrote a
long time ago the monetary standard and
the moral standard are inexorably
linked that and this gets into back into
property and time
preference
um when money is losing its value over
time we're all incentivized to be more
short-term thinking this is a
decivilizing
force and I think it is at I don't want
to say it's the sole cause for a lot of
the cultural malays we see in the world
today but I think it's a significant
contributor if you enjoyed this episode
check out this deep conversation with
Donald Hoffman about reality and
Consciousness what we are are avatars of
the one the one awareness is exploring
all of its possibilities through
different avatars so somehow there is
this field of
awareness