Kind: captions
Language: en
look how much I love my son he doesn't
even have a penis anymore those women
online displaying themselves they're not
human you're a fool if you think that's
human and Jews you know they have IQs
that are probably 15 points higher than
the typical so they're radically over
over represented the there's no reason
to assume at all that the religious
Enterprise can't degenerate into
totalitarian psychopathy for that matter
does all the time is that
controversial
yes all right there is a Doomsday Clock
that we use to track how close we are to
nuclear Annihilation the closer to
midnight theoretically the higher the
risk if we had a Doomsday Clock for how
close we are to a totalitarian takeover
of the West how close to midnight would
it be it depends on what we decide to do
it the opportuni is there
at for a a pervasive totalitarian state
the likes of which we can hardly imagine
instituted with a rapidity we can hardly
conceive of that's there it's right
there in front of us so that's the eye
of soron by the way why well if you
dispense with God you create a Tower of
Babel and that was what was represented
in the Lord of the Rings as the Tower of
soron technological Tower and what was
on the top of it a big eye that could
see everything exactly
so if you don't have this is one way of
thinking about it if you forgo your
relationship with the omniscient that's
a good way of thinking about it you'll
create a technology that replicates that
for you except there'll be nothing about
it that will be your friend and it will
watch everything you do no matter how
hard you try to make yourself invisible
let's say with the ring of
power okay so I want to understand what
what is the proclivity in the human soul
that leads us back to this and let me
you a little bit of context and then uh
go into it so you introduced me to
Alexander nson I actually read the G
archipelago that sent me on a terrifying
journey of reading about every
totalitarian state that I could get my
hands on oh yeah uh ended up really
scaring me about how humans can break
bad in a way that I felt I was looking
around and seeing people trying to
gobble up power uh top down Authority a
sense of I know what's right and
therefore you should do what I say and
that even when it comes in the package
of oh I'm going to save you like M China
it's usually when the package it comes
in yeah and and yet kills 100 plus
million people so is it only darkness in
the human soul is it only Pride or is
there Spirit of Pride it's the eternal
spirit of Pride allied with deceit and
resentment and arrogant arrogance that's
the spirit that Milton characterized in
Paradise Lost is it is it only
human no clearly not it exists only
human what do you mean well it'll be
there long after you are it's Immortal
in a way that's a way of thinking about
it but it feels like it would propagate
only through the human mind what do you
mean
only that there is no other option I
mean we could get into AI but I want to
segment this out the the reason I want
to tease this apart is I believe that
people are possessed by ideas that if
they they allow themselves to become
possessed by ideas they invite them in
yeah even better people invite in ideas
those ideas are going to govern the
quality of their life and then as enough
of us agregate around good or bad ideas
the quality of Our Lives get better or
worse that's the war of
principalities so that's what that's
right that's right what I want people to
understand is uh Soldier nen's idea of
the line between good and evil runs to
the heart of every man uh we all have
this temptation towards totalitarianism
born of Pride uh especially smart people
so how do we avoid it
fear fear of God is the beginning of
wisdom well what is God then the
antithesis of the of the spirit of
totalitarian
Pride can I simplify that so well
imagine this okay sure sure imagine this
imagine that here's a form of hell um
owitz guard enjoying his job okay now I
think
it's it's fair to say that your
experience exposing yourself to such
things has convinced you that there's
such a thing as evil okay whatever is
farthest in the opposite direction
that's God what is
that well that's not a simple thing to
say I mean God is
ineffable God is the
ineffable spirit that unites
all that's a good way of thinking about
it so what does that mean well it means
an endless number of things right many
of which can't be formulated in
words much of which is directly
experienced embodied um imagined felt
motivated all of that not just words
it's certainly not something that can be
cap encapsulated in a in a set of
declarative statements which is partly
what the West is confused about we think
that belief in God
is adherence to a statable
description of God or a Creed that's not
what it is that's that's a very small
fragment of what it is just as our
verbal knowledge is a small fragment of
our
totality can I give you what I think
you're saying in my language and tell me
if I'm getting correct okay uh
everyone's going to be familiar with the
idea of The Madness of crowds and there
is something terrifying if you've ever
been around a group that goes from a
normal group and they snap over into
fighting or whatever you feel mob yeah
you feel a spirit overcome them where
they are linked and it changes something
in the way that they are processing the
inputs from their environment definitely
it changes their perceptual frame yes
changes their emotions it changes what
they see it changes what they're aiming
at even unconsciously it's no different
than the in some ways it's no different
than the spirit that unites a crowd when
it leaps to the to its feet
spontaneously after a particularly
brilliant goal right that's also a form
of possession although much more
positive form of possession because
that's a celebration of the ability to
hit the mark which is the opposite of
sin right sin means to miss the mark
there's three separate derivations of
the word sin that come from archery yeah
yeah so that's what people are doing in
the stadium is they're allowing
themselves to be possessed by the spirit
that hits the target
brilliantly right all together
collectively it's a form of worship
what's interesting in that uh so let's
put two pins in things so one the hell
is the exact opposite it's when the
crowd goes mad it breaks bad it kills it
smashes it breaks and then God is the
exact opposite of that it's expansive
joyful
uplifting and unifying right it has that
it has that yes it's the proper Unity
that's another way these are definitions
right they're not statements they're not
statements they're not descriptive
statements about God they're definitions
they're definitions that's a very very
different thing so imagine that there is
a spirit that properly unifies that's
that's the monotheistic God that's the
god of Abraham what is that well you
know who can
say no one can say we can tell stories
about it and of course the biblical
stories are stories about that that's
exactly what they are but the fastest
way and for modern people I would say is
the root you took if you don't don't
believe in good well try investigating
evil and see what you make of that and
then start to understand what that means
for you and see what that does to you is
one of the things I realized because I
started studying malevolence a very long
time ago now it's it's 50 years for me
it's a long time
and I certainly became convinced that in
some ways there was nothing more real
than malevolence now there are arguable
contenders pain for example is a
Contender but if malevolence is an
undeniable reality and there's a price
to be paid for denying that by the way
because you turn the Nazi catastrophe
into just a matter of opinion right if
you don't believe in something like the
Ultimate Reality of evil it's
just well you know the Nazis went about
things a slightly different way who's to
say what's right or wrong and while the
opposite of that there's an opposite of
that right it's what it's wherever you
go if you travel as far away from
enjoying owitz as you can possibly go
and people might say well no one enjoyed
owitz it's like really what was the sign
over owitz the joke work will make you
free people joke you tell me they didn't
didn't enjoy it slay if you think that
people didn't enjoy orwitz you know
nothing about human beings and nothing
about
yourself if you think you couldn't have
enjoyed it you know nothing about
yourself
and that's terrifying and should be and
that it can lead you you see that leads
you because it gives you something solid
to stand on something terrible terrible
and solid but nonetheless something
motivating because maybe you decide that
you don't want to go to hell so to speak
and maybe you don't want to bring
everyone you love along with you maybe
you don't even want to bring everyone
you hate along with you that's a good
realization better to redeem than to Dam
you changed my life with a simple idea
and that simple idea was that um I could
find myself as the guard in aitz and not
as the person hiding um and Frank in my
addict yeah oh five of them yeah exactly
and that scared me
saw Yes I mean God the thing it just
terrified me in Toronto it was something
remarkable to behold all these butter
won't melt in your mouth hyper moral
Canadians you know secure in the fact
that they're nothing for example like
the warmongering Americans to the south
delighting in the fact that they could
turn their neighbors over to the state
with a phone call willing to wear those
goddamned masks for the rest of their
life just to have the privilege of being
a state informant brutal
brutal awful so I look at that and I see
myself and I say okay the line between
which way I go on that runs through my
heart this is where I get obsessed with
the idea of okay I'm going to be
possessed by ideas which ideas do I want
to invite in that's why Christ says that
the kingdom of God is like a mustard
seed it takes root and grows inside you
like all ideas ideas are alive Richard
Dawkins figured this out although he
didn't take it to its logical conclusion
a living idea is a meme all ideas are
alive and what do I mean by that well
they're instantiated in your nervous
system like how are they not alive how
do they not have a perspective how do
they not have an aim a set of
motivations
um the desire to communicate even n n
said every Drive attempts to
philosophize in its own Spirit n knew
these things and then you do you you you
incorporate you take in you eat
sometimes things you shouldn't that's
the Eternal sin of mankind to
incorporate even the forbidden fruit
fruit what's the forbidden fruit
knowledge of Good and Evil what does
that mean you don't get to make the
moral rules and that's where Nicha went
wrong we don't we can't create our own
values we have to abide by the intrinsic
order of the cosmos and Richard Dawkins
knew this too he wrote a paper stating
that biological organisms had to be a
microcosm of the environment in which
they evolved it's like okay Dr Dawkins
how far are you willing to take them
that a human being is a personality does
that mean that the cosmos is a
personality is it something you have a
relationship with that's how we're
adapted so he can take that wherever
however he wants the the Avatar of the
spirit of Enlightenment
rationality right that that that's a
snake that's now devoured its own tail
so that's why the enlightenment is
coming to an end yes we are for sure
going to talk about that before we get
to that though I I really how did you
notice that I said
that uh you gave a speech I I I listen
to a lot of your stuff because you help
me think through complicated ideas uh I
am a big believer in that um by speaking
you're speaking so that you can
understand not necessarily so you can be
understood so I seek people that I see
have The Bravery to actually think out
loud and process through also for
anybody watching they will probably have
heard me talk about this before and I
was telling you this before we started
rolling I was very confused when you
went from the internet's dad you got
very sick and you came back as like the
internet's Theologian and I could not
figure out what that change was uh but
as somebody who I had seen be a very
careful thinker I thought okay what if
there were something here that I'm just
not understanding yet let me try to map
it and I don't know that you and I see
this the same way I don't know is the
honest answer and I hope we figure that
out today but I know that you have
Clarity of thought and there's internal
consistency and so that means that
there's probably something very useful
because you know what you're aiming
towards and this is the anchor we have
to address before we can move on away
from yes yes which to your point about
uh sin is missing the mark but that
implies that there is because I would
say sin is hitting the wrong Mark if I
had well that's that's a deeper form of
sin because that's what I think is
happening right now I really think
you're the Maring the coal mine what's
happening to you with them trying to
strip your license even though I do hate
the way you tweet I'm not going to lie
but I listen to that whole episode where
your friends were like Jordan please
stop I was literally in my house like
Jordan please anyway you get you should
have the right to beow come out
somewhere correct you should be a fully
fledged human being you should not have
to answer to us even though as people
who um have gotten so much value out of
the way that you think through problems
that's what we're responding to anyway
so the thing we have to get to is I
think sin is hitting the wrong mark I
think people are hitting that Mark in
Spades I think you've become the
lightning Pride that's why we worship
Pride well pride has always pride has
always been regarded as the ultimate sin
before we before we go down that path
let me let me string this whole idea
together uh you're the canary and the
coal mine because why would that be I
wonder uh because you won't shut up
about things that people who believe
because I take the stance the
totalitarians actually are trying to do
good some of them aren't but I think
that that makes it too easy to push them
away assume that they are just possessed
by the wrong idea and so they believe I
know what's best I I legitimately know
what's best for Humanity yeah but that's
the problem I get it bear with me and
you are who's the eye that knows just
out of curiosity uh in that
statement that's the question say I'm
saying I know how wrong that can go
those people are saying they they think
they have identified
the social structure that will lead to a
Utopia they identify their eye with the
spirit of totalitarianism that has
possessed them they haven't gotten that
far they may not even be smart enough to
get that far which is a whole another
thesis I have about the complexity of
ideas which I think is a big part of
what causes this problem is people
cannot think through these incredibly
complicated ideas so they need bumper
stickers you give them a bumper sticker
Parables o you're trying to make it
positive again will take a bumper
sticker long before they will take a
par more compc yes yes that's you know
what you know what slogan means yes no I
don't know what it means it's from it's
from the Welsh SLU gam it means
battlecry of the Dead why of the
dead because slogans are dead words and
they're like in brandished by they're
brandished by the army of the Dead that
would rather drag the living into the
pit than Prevail than allow the living
to prevail
battlecry of the dead it's the army of
the Dead speaking through the mouths of
people that use
slogans okay can I I'm going to
translate that yeah uh you said earlier
that you know how soier niton talked
about people who were possessed by an
ideology right and they their words
their words had no personal relationship
to them they were they were merely
mimicking an ideology all the Communists
said exactly the same thing there's
nothing alive about that if everyone is
saying exactly the same thing well
because and this is I suppose where the
left has something has has something
accurate perverted there's a diversity
and a Vitality an originality in In
Living speech that's not there in in the
land of cliche and slogan that's why you
can't listen to people like when I
listen to ideologues talk it's just
buzzing I can't even hear it my mind
goes elsewhere instantly there's nothing
about it that's compelling there's
nothing that's gripping they're not
testing the idea against
feedback there's multiple reasons for
because they're because the speech is an
indication that while they're speaking
they're not treading the golden path
what's the golden
path it's the path that grips attention
and is inspiring okay I have to say you
can give me space I need to say this
that's that's fine all right so uh I'm
not trying to speak elusively there's no
no I know I know you and I just use such
different language and I think it will
be very useful for people to hear the
same thing said in like a Rosetta Stone
Way yes definitely okay so I've heard
you talk about this a lot when you go
out and do your talks part of what makes
them so captivating is you are actually
taking a living idea that you were
trying to explore golden path it's not
rigid Dogma it is an idea you want to
find the truth of and so you go out in
front of a crowd to assess whether
they're taking it in what kind of like
silence perfect and so that idea is
living in as much as it is not rigid it
is not fossilized you want predetermined
it's not dogmatic right that's right
it's that's why it's not dead it's not
already formulated it's not a
corpse it's something alive that's
happening right then and there right
right and that's something that only
spontaneous speech can manage even even
books suffer from the lack of that now
books have their utility they in a book
when you write a book when you read a
book you can deeply investigate an idea
but it does risk a kind of death death
of the words on the page because they're
not as finely attuned to the demands of
the situation the specific situation as
a spontaneous speech can be when it's at
its highest because it's of the moment
that notion that you know um there's
that's the third person of the Trinity
right that spirit that possesses you
when you speak in an inspired manner
that's a and that's a symbolic
representation of the Living spirit of
of exploration in relationship to the
highest goal that's really what it is
and so you know you might say well what
what do you have to be aiming
at if if your goal is to speak in that
manner and the answer is well you have
to be doing your best for the best in
you and other people that has to be your
aim and then you have to speak truth in
so far as you're capable and will do the
trick and there's no difference between
that and the paraclete that Christ left
in the gospels behind behind after his
departure it's a reflection of the idea
of the holy spirit it's the baptismal
spirit it's the spirit of God that moves
upon the waters at the beginning of time
it's a it's the creative manifestation
of the structure that extracts habitable
order from chaos it's all of those
things in its living form that's why
it's inspiring why else would it be
inspiring
why else would it attract and
gleam right or have motive Force right I
mean the and and you can think of it
instinctually if you want it speaks
biologically those are words that speak
to the deepest core of your being
materially for that matter because
everything Stacks up if everything's
unified in the highest Place everything
Stacks up and and that is the case that
to me is the final test of an idea's
validity if it will stack and if it will
point you to things that are true that's
technically True by the way because one
of so the reason that you have five
senses is so that your orientation
occurs as a consequence of things that
are stacked when all five senses report
the same thing you have a reasonable
assurance that what you're seeing
corresponds sufficiently to reality so
you won't perish right now we that isn't
enough because then I'll take the
evidence of my senses and contrast it
with the evidence of of yours from your
slightly different perspective and then
we'll do that collectively we're doing a
lot of stacking in order to filter the
infinite sufficiently so that we can
model it well enough to move forward a
lot of stacking and that is there's a
technical branch of
psychometrics uh construct
theory that that psychologists have
developed to help distinguish between
Concepts that are real from Concepts
that aren't like the phenological
concepts for example that people used to
use to map the hypothetical functions of
the brain there was something in that
idea but they weren't real Concepts how
do you know if a concept is real well
you can measure it using multiple
different instruments at different times
and in different places and get the same
report something like that now more than
ever the ability to see through the
chaos of the traditional news media is
an absolute necessity bias narratives
selective reporting all of it obstruct
the kind of informed critical thinking
that all of us should be striving for
that's why I have to tell you about
ground news ground news compiles stories
from across the global political
Spectrum giving you every angle so you
get the full picture you can see a story
like the one here which has been covered
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interesting is that 36% of the sources
lean left 33% are in the center and 31%
lean right now these are based on
ratings from three Independent News
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shot right right right this is why the
case against you scares me this is
people with dead
ideas uh enslaving others with bumper
stickers slogans that they can hold on
to that makes them feel morally virtuous
but they not they simple they're simple
and morally virtuous yes it's a
viciously tempting combination right
correct one idea explains everything
plus once you brandish that idea all
your moral work is done mhm right very
very tempting that is definitely the
tempting that is definitely the
temptation of a deadly slogan like from
each according to his ability to each
according to his need you can destroy
the world with that dead weapon yeah and
we you know we did a pretty good job of
trying that and we're not done
apparently yeah so uh this is why I
think you have to be from their lens you
have to be silenced because you force
that idea to compete for validity in the
realm of ideas and if it really is ideas
and that's all we have if it doesn't
compete in the realm of ideas it will
compete in the realm of Flesh yes right
everyone needs to know that and its
unwillingness to compete in the realm of
ideas is a signal that it's not valid
which is why they can't put this is
exactly why Biden saying I'm not going
to debate scares the life out of me
because that's what you do when you
can't win like if you know your ideas
are more compelling you step to the mic
all day long or if you know that you
should subject them to debate so if
you're wrong you could learn even
because maybe that's even what you want
in a leader you don't necessarily need a
leader who's right because God help you
you're not going to find that but you
could at least find one who is willing
to put his ideas to the test to discover
where he's wrong that's a leader that's
someone with courage right that's
someone willing to kill the to kill the
father in a sense to kill the tyrannical
father because the tyrannical father is
the presumption of your own dead ideas
that not psychologically speaking that's
the case that's the giant that the hero
slays in order to make the new world
right the dogma of the past the dead
dogma of the past it might have even
been valid at some point but you want a
leader who embodies that spirit and not
necessarily the correct knowledge you
know P Jean P the developmental
psychologist he knew this is
that the deepest truth is a proper
formulation of the process by which
truth itself is
generated right and that's what P was
trying to discover when he evaluated
children he knew that again the
deepest I don't know if I can say that
again the deepest truth is the
representation of the process by which
truth itself is generated that's the
hero story
wow it's a process truth is a process
truth is a spirit rather than a set of
dead facts why do people run from it
because it forces you to pick up your
cross I mean I mean really obviously
obviously like why do people run is the
question well what do they run from Pain
and malevolence well why
well it's obvious why that what's not
obvious is how you could not do that
well you know the the entire biblical
Corpus is an analysis of why you
shouldn't run what would mean not to run
what it would mean if you
fully
ceased running that's the story of
Christ the story of Christ is the story
of a man the man let's say who ceased
running that's what it that's what the
story is can I give you an alternate
take that scares me so badly and I think
I'm right about this okay I think well
if it scares you that's a good
indication that you might be right yeah
uh the big problem here is that to pick
up a cross and be willing to suffer what
Jesus suffered you have to you have to
have a conviction that you're right that
hell awaits on the other side of not
doing that most people cannot think
through ideas that complicated and be
certain enough that they'd be willing to
be torn down
well that's reflected to some degree
that's reflected to some degree in the
structure of especially the Catholic
church and and and doeski pointed to
that in the brothers
kurasov there's a scene in the brothers
karamazov where Christ comes back to
Earth in the midst of the Spanish
Inquisition and and he performs his
miracles and goes about goes about his
spiritual business goes about being the
process of the word and The Inquisitor
comes and arrests him and throws him in
prison and then comes down in the middle
of the night and says look you know
we've we don't need you around you're a
lot of trouble we've taken your
impossible message your impossible
demands and we recast them so that
flawed people can manage and the last
thing we need is you to show back up and
destroy everything we've done to make
what you had to say palatable because
people just can't manage it it's too
much and Christ listens and at the end
he kisses The Inquisitor who turns white
and leaves and but he leaves the door
open when he leaves and and that's
that's a complicated answer to your
question but you are right in a sense
that it's too much to ask but you're
wrong and that people turn to lesser
Solutions mediated
Solutions like a belief in an external
Christ let's say that's that's one way
of thinking about it rather than a joint
belief in an internal and external
Christ which would be more
comprehensive and they turn to that
instead of
of seeking out the whole Adventure the
problem with that is and this is the
problem is that you don't have have a
choice about your cross exactly you only
have a choice about how you will bear it
because death and and hell are coming
for you and that's that there's no
escape from that and so all you can
choose is the manner in which you
confront it and you can do it
voluntarily
wholeheartedly in good faith with
courage or you can do it any of the
insane multiplicity of other ways that
clamor for your
attention that's right my name is Legion
right there's a word there's a reason
for
that right so so the the Christian
message fundamentally is that your best
bet All Things Considered truly all
things considered is to take the whole
burden on like wide eyes wide open right
that's what Abraham does for example
when he goes on his great adventure it's
the it's a and that's what job does
there are precursors to this idea in the
Old Testament stories it's in some ways
fully revealed that's a good way of
thinking about it in the New Testament
stories so Christ's claim is that he
embodies the spirit in the Old Testament
you think that's
right I think that's the simplest
explanation and it has to do you said
already that people can allow ideas to
possess them so what idea should you
allow to possess you well the insistence
in the judeo-christian tradition is that
you should invite in this the spirit of
your ancestors the unified monotheistic
creative loving kind truthful Spirit of
your ancestors something's coming in or
a multitude of things how about a
diversity of things how about a rainbow
of things or a plurality of things what
under some United flag the union of
diversity
I don't think so it's no wonder that we
believe in the union of diversity when
we believe that a man can be a
woman if we believe those things there's
nothing we won't swallow no camel too
big to go down our throats no
totalitarian lie we won't rush to
embody so you asked earlier where are we
headed like every single person is
making up their mind about that well
they always have but it's really evident
at the moment and it's going to become a
lot more than it is because people are
moving in the wrong direction no they've
always done that but not this fast
interesting right because we're you know
we're we're we're in a we're in a
runaway cycle of of transformation and
yeah I think we're in a positive
feedback loop where social media allows
simplistic ideas to we in a lot of
positive feedback loops yeah it uh I I
the Only Solution I see is that's the
dragon that needs it own tail the
positive feedback Loop H we interpret
the orob boros differently well it's
many things you know because it is a
symbol of chaos but one of the things it
is is a runaway positive feedback loop
interesting I see that as um the what
ends up happening when you don't have
the right foundational model that you
can't make progress because your core
Foundation is such that you eat your own
progress yeah through incompetence is
the easiest way to think of it you have
the wrong model that's to me what the or
boros is about which is the whole idea
that you're saying that's why emerges
when the father
dies you know better yeah if the if the
father is a corpse the Urus makes itself
manifest the Mesopotamians knew this
when when the okay so the Mesopotamian
Gods killed their father absu and tried
to live on his corpse well that's what
we're doing when we mouth slogans we're
trying to live on the corpse of the past
and in instead of embodying its Living
spirit they try they slay the past
they're they have no regard for the past
which is also what we're doing by the
way they slay the past and attempt to
inhabit its corpse like jepetto in the
whale it's the same idea and Tiamat
shows back up she's the dragon of chaos
and she and her goal is to destroy
everything and that's one of the
precursors that idea is one of the
precursors to the flood myth and the
word TI
is they say etymologically cognate with
the word toou vaboh and that's the chaos
out of which God makes order at the
beginning of time all these ideas are
linked so if you inhabit dead ideas you
will bring back
chaos of course the dead yes the dead
ideas can no longer they can no longer
sustain you in
your active contending with the present
this happens in The Lion King what
happens when SC scar Takes Over The
Pride what what happens when Scar takes
over Pride Rock Pride Rock it's so
comical scar takes over Pride Rock well
why well he's scarred that's the first
thing he's intellectually arrogant
obviously and the whole Kingdom turns
into a wasteland a dry sterile desert
Wasteland that's always the case it's
always been the case and and we're
seeing the archetypal outlines more
clearly now because things are changing
at a
ever accelerating rate and so God only
knows what does Jonathan Paso say Giants
will walk the earth once again they
already
are what is The Enlightenment why do we
have to get to the other side of it or
why do you think maybe we already are
the enlightenment is the belief that the
material world speaks for
itself and it's not true you have to see
facts through a lens of value the
postmodernists got that right that's why
we are in the culture world to some
degree is the postmodern critique was
correct we see the world through a story
and the facts now indicate that I've
I've talked with Carl friston for
example one of the world's great
neuroscientists many people know this
now um I asked friston is a is an object
a micron narrative he said yes so we
have to understand what to do with it
function you bet you bet you bet you bet
you don't just see the world you see the
value of the world and you don't you
don't see the world and infer the value
you see the value you see the value and
and the the implicit structure of your
incons unconscious is the is the Matrix
of value through which the world reveals
itself and properly formulated that
Matrix has
a
multi-dimensional narrative structure
that's coherent that's reflected in the
structure of the biblical stories and we
know that what we say well what's the
foundational document of Western
Civilization well obviously it's the
Bible like forget the theology
historically well what does that mean
well it means
that it means it's the seed from which
your perceptual Matrix grew you're a
more or less coherent echo of the
biblical
Corpus that's what you are and the more
you know of the stories the hyperlink
Stories the more fully fleshed that
Incarnation internal Incarnation
becomes the Bible was written in consort
you might say with the obviously with
the function of the human nervous system
both individually and collectively was
woven together over thousands of years
and also evolved to match the structure
of our memories all of that and the
structure of our
attention so the postmodernists when
they realized that we saw the world
through a story which was a brilliant
Discovery and was made in many
disciplines at the same time by the way
um they jumped to the they jumped to the
next question which was well if we see
the world through a story what is the
story and they said well it's power and
it's twin sister it's evil twin sister
Hedonism but Power they were marxists
it's all about power power have it your
way play with fire see what happens
power you think power is interesting too
because you might say well why would you
want Power like if I could just ask you
to walk along with me why wouldn't I do
that why would I have to exercise power
over you well how about I want you to do
something that you don't want to do well
what how about something for my
immediate gratification that's why pajo
Jonathan Paso has said that the Marquee
dad is the evil brother of the
Enlightenment rational mind it's like
absolutely same thing same idea explored
by dovi in in crime and punishment with
risol
nikov yeah
brutal all right so let me say uh if I'm
understanding you correctly that to get
on the counter Enlightenment trrain we
could sum it up in a tongue-and-cheek
way and say facts are dead facts are
always dead
facts are always dead that's why you
can't follow them there's as many
there's more facts than there are
things you can't Orient yourself imagine
I drop you in the middle of a desert
it's like all the facts are at hand man
you're still going to die why cu the cuz
the territory isn't the map because the
land doesn't speak how about that how
about all of that
right now can I give me my favorite
example of this sure okay this is true
uh what we think of as the entire world
everything that we can see is
0.35% of the available electromagnetic
spectrum right right good example so
looking at you I should see a number of
photons in a given wavelength that are
reflecting off of that fabric but I
don't I see black I see red I see gold
whatever you see tools and obstacles uh
yes for sure and once I understood oh my
God I'm seeing a ridiculous ly gross
simplification of what is really in the
world then I realize my brain is made up
of algorithms and once I realize my
brain is made of algorithms and
algorithms are designed to push you to
see certain things to conceive of them
in a certain way I suddenly really
wanted to understand what are my
algorithms driving me to do and every
idea for sure that's why Yung said every
person has to figure out the myth that
they're living whoa wow it's the same
thing what story here's two ways of
thinking about it what story are you
acting out
or what character resides in you that's
another way of thinking about it or what
Spirit have you allowed to possess you
or what Spirit have you invited in and
consorted with so such that it can
possess you so when Cain is bitter Cain
from Cain and Abel Cain is bitter
because his sacrifices go unrewarded so
he's bitter because his work is not
successful and everyone should be able
to identify with that there's no
difference between work and Sacrifice by
the way they're the same thing we when
we work we sacrifice the present to the
Future saw that clip from your book yeah
okay okay so now Cain's work is
unsuccessful so he gets bitter and
so and he's jealous as well of Abel who
sacrifices are accepted and who's
thriving and so Cain Cain's countenance
Falls he becomes depressed and anxious
and nihilistic and resentful
and starts to shake his F fist at God he
did he does what job's wife tells job to
do when job is being tortured job's wife
says shake your fist at God and die well
Cain shakes his fist at God and kills
and so that's that's even worse um so
Cain calls out God just like bitter
atheists do constantly and for they have
their reasons and says you know I'm what
the hell's going on here what kind of
world did you make where I'm breaking
myself in half with my labors and
nothing is succeeding and everything is
bitter and pointless and God says if you
did well you you'd be accepted and then
he says something much much worse which
you figured out
already he said sin crouches at your
door like a sexually aroused predatory
animal and you've invited it in to have
its way with you that's dark right well
it's terrible it's terrible and there's
Echoes of this in other mythological
stories uh so what it means is that Cain
is suffering and there's there's nothing
sinful in that as such right because the
innocent can suffer Cain suffers and
then he turns in the direction of
Temptation he starts to nurse his
resentment that's
another biological metaphor to nurse
your resentment he starts to brood over
his resentment right and so what that
means is that Spirit of arrogant
resentment takes he invites it in it
takes up residence within him but then
he engages in
Creative he engages in a creative
dialogue with that spirit it's it's not
merely possession it's it's joint cons
it's conspiracy it's conspiracy between
the eternal spirit of Darkness that's a
good way of thinking about it and a
living human soul that's what happens
when you get resentful man when I hear
you talk this is uh this is is exactly
what it feels like to me um JK Rawling
the first Harry Potter book is really
simple and by the last one it's heavy
and she was clearly maturing the writing
and the story with the people reading it
m when I look at we who yes when I look
at we who wrestle with God as the more
mature next step in the 12 rules of Life
uh you sort of return to maps of meaning
interesting so you don't feel that it's
the successor to 12 rules of
life it is in the way that you just
described because I think I suppose it's
a hybrid see maps of meaning was so
difficult it's it it took me 30 years to
unpack it to the point where I could
make it straightforwardly comprehensible
especially in writing but even in in
lecturing right I I unpacked it really
over 30 years then I got good enough at
that so I could write a book that was
accessible and then this book is I hope
it retains its accessibility but it's
it's a hydrogen bomb this book really I
mean look I haven't read it yet but I'm
going to I'm going to plant a flag here
and say this is how I think your books
go uh maps of meaning which is how I
found you um helped me understand why
why were you motivated to plow through
that because I'm a filmmaker at
my so the story part yes and so I took
away from that this is why these
structures these character these
relationships this is why they resonate
with the human animal yes right 12 rules
for life were hey I see you suffering I
see nobody's talking to you let me give
you some simple rules that will really
help you out then you go on your own
cross carrying Journey coma illness
crazy town and you come back with the
Deathly Hallows version of now I'm going
to give you these the mythology and I'm
going to tell you exact ly what you
wrestle with to learn what Spirit not
only lives inside you currently What
Spirit should live inside of you all of
the human experiences already been
thought through I can't give it to you
in a bunch of simple packages of the
rules for life because those will become
dead wood fast I've got to get you into
the thing there's a reason you titled
this book we who wrestle with God and
not what you can learn from God that
that would have been a title more people
would have understood but there's
obviously something to this idea of
wrestling with living ideas making it
personal figuring out what your
relationship is with this stuff when
when when when when Jacob is wrestling
with God that's
worship that's that's true worship
that's why he he's awarded the name
Israel he's the leader of the chosen
people because he wrestles with
God
so that
uh Mana for the
suffering because it means that if
you're genuinely suffering then you're
God's there in your
grasp right there with you that's a good
way of thinking about it in the
wrestling
um Socrates was a
wrestler
literally right
and he was he was a very powerfully
built person he wrestled before he was a
philosopher it's the same thing and
everyone thing is about the Chosen
People Israel everyone wrestles with
God now the question is you know in what
Spirit should you wrestle with God and I
would say
um remember who you're wrestling with
that's what job that's what God tells
job when he reminds him
that you know God was there at the
beginning of the time beginning of time
um defeating Leviathan fashioning the
world remember who you're wrestling with
with have a little
humility or a
lot plenty enough to strip you of your
Deadwood right and if you're all
Deadwood then the fire of God looks like
hell can I get you to read something
that you said these are your words
verbatim this is from your Arc speech
this was when I felt like okay I
actually really understand what he's
doing now uh it starts there with the
muscle emojis uh and just goes to the
read it out loud yeah I think it's
better in your voice because this this
for everybody listening this is part of
the speech he gave at the ark
conference we're so
foolish we regard those
propositions religious propositions is
something approximating primitive
superstitions when in fact they're the
most brilliant intuitions into the
fundamental structure of reality that
have ever been offered we predicated our
civilization on those price positions
and look at it it's not so bad we've
brought wealth and plenty to billions of
people around the world we've been
struggling uphill properly and if we
were wise and faithful and courageous
and responsible we could continue to
spread that to everyone we could
eradicate absolute poverty we could
bring about a time of abundance and
opportunity for
everyone and we'll do that we can do
that if we Hoist the world on our
individual shoulders and operate
collectively in this harmonious Manner
and continue the struggle uphill toward
the city of God and that's the truth
it's the truth it's not some
Superstition it's not some primitive
defense against death anxiety it's not
the opiate of the
people it's the call to Divine
responsibility and to the degree that
each of us acted it out in the confines
of our own life we do what I suggested
at the beginning of this conference
which is tilt the world toward heaven
and away from
hell yeah that's that's all
right amazing it hit me very hard when I
first heard it I don't believe in God
how do I come to what does p say about
that when people say that he says I
don't believe in the same God you don't
believe
in do you think
are you struggling to find your way yes
is it an honest struggle yes that's the
belief it's not a statement religious
belief is not a statement about facts
it's not a scientific theory this is why
the enlightenment is is done that that
was wrong that isn't what it is it's a
struggle it's the moral struggle or you
could say maybe more clearly
see you say you don't believe but what
you mean is you can't reconcile your
conceptions with your intuitions really
and that is the modern predicament
because you do you believe that what
happened in orwitz was wrong yes okay
well then you know you've established
one pole of the of the belief in
Divinity you've just established the
malevolent poll and that means the
benevolent poll
is
ill conceptualized still implicit that's
it still implicit that's what God is
that's what God is in in the belly of
the whale is implicit still implicit but
that doesn't mean it's not there called
or not called God is there that was Carl
Yung The Carving over his the castle he
built with his own two
hands it's there you just don't know it
but you know to some degree because
you're struggling and you're struggling
away from owitz let's say that's good
great you know the person running away
from hell is also running towards heaven
now maybe your pathway would be a little
straighter if you knew a little bit more
about heaven but away way is
something out of hell is something out
of hell towards what there's the next
question I suppose Out of Hell towards
what towards what toward toward a
neutral a neutral normality or or upward
away from hell up Jacob's Ladder towards
the highest possible
Heights that's the dwelling place of the
eternally uniting Spirit that's a good
way of thinking about it that's Jacob's
Ladder and where does it end I don't
know if it does end it it disappears
into the
Heights and what's at the top something
that recedes when you approach
it I come at everything from a very
materialist
standpoint not everything I think
everything not the evil not your
realization of the reality of evil oh to
me that there's no in congruence there
that that's just a natur there was
necessarily an
incongruent um interesting so for me
that's the same I come at that just
humans are algorithms and you have
algorithms that could lead you to evil I
get why in certain circumstances in a
truly aoral Universe where are the
creators of algorithms as well yeah sort
of there's look yeah sort of that's
right biology is uh is at play but
females select who they sleep with and
that has huge implications we all get to
invite ideas into our world so for sure
um well there's an order it's like I
think one of the ways of thinking good
thinking about it is that it's the same
as the dynamic between musical knowledge
and musical production in composers like
the composers are adhering to a set
of guidelines you would say they're
they're they're operating in accordance
with a certain order but they can
produce an endless literally endless
proliferation of forms and human beings
are both of those things they're they're
the order that gives rise
to gives rise to what is new and alive
but they're also the thing that is alive
they're both at the same time that's the
hero in in in relationship to the the
father of the king that's Osiris in
relationship to Horus well that's Horus
sorry Horus the Egyptian god in
relationship to Osiris we're both that's
partly why there's a trinitarian view in
Christianity so because there's a
there's a the father is like a structure
that's a way of thinking about it and
the Sun
is the sun is the Incarnation of that
structure and the spirit is the
intermediary between the two it's
something like that I'm I'm trying to
get people to understand that they're
having a biological experience because I
want them to be able to predict the
outcome of their actions by
understanding the nature of their mind
and the minds of the people they're
interacting with I have a feeling you're
doing exactly the same thing through a
different form of encapsulated wisdom
that wisdom being the biblical Corpus
how right does that
feel well the monotheistic hypothesis is
that everything meets so I don't have
any problem with the evolutionary
biologist for example well that once we
sort out our theological presuppositions
and our biological presuppositions
they'll be the same thing yes oh yes you
can see that that that convergence is
already happening that's already
happening in many many ways there's
there's a tremendous concordance I would
say between the ethos that's laid out in
the biblical writings and uh the uh
what would you say the analysis of
reciprocal
altruism so and you know Brett Weinstein
is moving rapidly down that road for
example in his conceptualization of the
spirit that organizes human individuals
and and societies so do you think what
they're discovering is that the
narrative structure and the just time
tested way that these stories have been
passed on uh into our generation
um prove that that's just the best
encapsulation of that wisdom in a way
that people can use in their own lives
ye