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you are being slaughtered and you don't
realize this there could be a dollar
crisis they're debating the currency by
15% a year I mean it is inevitable that
it's going to happen but does that just
mean that we're crazy and that it's
going to be fine I'm not saying
everybody is wrong I'm saying that
people that believe in Bitcoin are wrong
you're missing the point why the hell
would anybody buy these These are
obviously going to go to zero I'm not
concerned about the Cliff of death how
do we make sense of these numbers or is
this a guaranteed Slaughter and we just
don't know when
the tension between the way the two of
you think has been really instrumental
in helping me and I think countless
others um build a worldview that will
help them navigate uh different moments
in the economy well um I think right now
we're going through a period of just
massive transition and so I come to the
debate between um crypto not crypto with
that in mind so to oversimplify your
guys' stances um I see r i see you as
Pro crypto Peter I seeu as anti- crypto
I know those are really gross
simplifications so I'd love to start
with Ral if you could walk us through
your position um how you see crypto why
you think it's valuable and then Peter
will come to you for your take okay so
I'm I think we will both agree that
things are pretty screwed up we'll all
agree right what is really screwed up is
the world is massively in
debt the workforce is shrinking
population growth is slowing down it's
slowing down GDP growth so there's not
enough GDP growth to pay or service the
amount of debt out there and what we
found since 2008 that the answer to this
debt issue has been printing of more
money debasement of currency people
think of it in terms of at first they
think it's going to be inflation as in
the price of CPI goes up but it's
actually not it's actually something
much worse is Wages don't rise
but assets go up because optically
you're debasing the
currency your future self is getting
poorer because assets are all about
storing wealth for future deferred
consumption but what's happening is you
can't afford as much of that
now and so your future self is in fact
poorer so a classic example is a 35y old
now in the United States getting married
having kids a house is very expensive
now
compared to when Peter and I were young
it was relatively cheap three times
incomes now it's like 10 times incomes
so there's no real way of getting up the
ladder the equity Market is much more
expensive your kind of percentage share
of the S&P is so much less so the
advantages that your parents had are not
available to
you so that's a problem at a problem for
society overall is this issue of
debasement of currency the government's
are doing it cuz there's no way of
paying the debt so what you're going to
have to do is continue to print money so
then if that is the
case and I found out in this everything
code analysis that I talked to you about
what we found is since 2008 they reset
interest rates it's like a debt reset
the debt Jubilee happened it was
everybody was given the chance to not
pay interest and everybody reset their
debts on this 3 to 5year time Horizon
and so four years is the middle and
we've got this perfect fouryear
cycle all assets are now incredibly
correlated with this cycle whether it's
Emerging Markets whether it's the dollar
whether it's rates whether it's crypto
whether it's gold whether it's equities
everything so if we've got a super
correlated environment where asset
prices keep going up because of
debasement of currency I the Optics
because the value of the currency is
going down then your job is to find
something that offsets it so the rate of
De basement by my calculation is about
15% a year on a globalized basis so your
hurdle rate is
15% now equities have done something not
far off that but that just means you're
not actually making any money you're
actually just standing still NASDAQ
which is in a secular trend is actually
beaten that 15% hurdle rate somewhat so
it's actually
helped the traditional way of doing it
would have been gold and you know I've
been a long-term gold investor I've
always like gold but gold has not done
particularly well in recent years
against debasement on a globalized basis
it still works beautifully well as a
Global Currency and against Global
debasement over time it works but the
really strong debasement we've been
having in recent years it just hasn't
done well enough and many of us from the
macro world started thinking okay we
need to find what is this hedge what is
the right way of doing
this and that's where crypto which I've
been involved in for a long time started
to really fit in here because it offers
a bunch of ways that the financial
system can use it in an overly indebted
system where you've got a collateral and
then like 30 uses of that same
collateral so nobody owns anything you
own a fraction of what you think you own
in an indebted system same with a bank
you have money in a bank it's not your
money it's actually the bank's money and
that's been proven time and time again
Bank bail-ins in Europe were
particularly
so we've got a broken Financial system
and the blockchain rails are something
that's actually very useful we can
figure out who owns what at any point
with instant settlement so it reduces a
lot of the risk of the settlement layer
but also you got you gave the rise of
cryptocurrencies which also have this
supply and demand Dynamic that's
interesting there's a limited Supply and
it has the properties somewhat of
digital
gold and that's worked very well if if
you look at that because you've got this
technology adoption of the blockchain
plus this store of value or this
collateral layer it's massively
outperformed
everything so it's been a phenomenally
good asset even with these massive draw
Downs on Route we have enormous draw
Downs
monstrous and still it's the best
performing asset in all recorded history
almost on any time Horizon
so it makes it very difficult to
allocate any money in anything
else um and that's why I've struggle I
just do every chart against Bitcoin or
every chart against the FED balance
sheet and try and say okay well what
goes up gold has actually gone down
versus the FED balance sheet I don't
think I think that's more of a temporary
State of Affairs than a permanent State
of Affairs again I'm actually not an
anti-gold person whatsoever I just think
when you've got technology plus goals
call it that as a narrative you're
always going to do better and in our job
to help people navigate this
journey if you're 65 years old go does a
great job for you if you're 35 year old
you ain't going to get anywhere you're
going to have to you have to gain wealth
not just protect wealth because you
don't have it when you're young and
that's the difference here the this is
the core difference to me is there's a
suitability factor for different types
of people and you're trying to solve
different
problems very well laid out uh Peter
what's your position how do you come to
your
worldview well I agree with r that
inflation is a is a problem
unfortunately it's the path of least
resistance for politicians to go down um
it's the way they finance their spending
it's the way they buy their own
reelection it's the way they avoid
having to be honest uh with the
electorate and tell them the truth about
um you know how broke they are and uh
it's really a hidden tax it's uh you
know it's instead of taking your money
uh by taxing you openly and directly or
even you know indirectly through a sales
tax they surreptitiously rob you of your
purchasing power by just creating money
out of thin air usually with a complicit
central bank and then they spend that
into
circulation and that drives up prices
whether it's Goods prices asset prices
uh but you know what's happening is the
value of each monetary unit is is going
down um as more of them are spent into
circulation and and that's going to
continue in fact that's going to
accelerate based on the F fiscal
predicament that we're in based on the
demographics uh certainly in the US we
have the baby boom I'm one of the
younger baby boomers born in 1963 1964
is the is the end of it uh but uh you
know I'm 60 I'm going to be 61 in March
right so I'm theoretically four years
away from cashing or collecting Social
Security um but you know there's a lot
of people in my
generation uh there's not a lot of
people in the generations that follow
with the ability to to make good on
these commitments so you know the Ponzi
is imploding uh so inflation is
basically you know that's what they're
going to do now I think that they're
playing with fire here I think
politicians and Central Bankers probably
think they can control it uh and it
won't run away from them and and turn
potentially in a hyperinflation and I I
wouldn't be so sure I think a lot of
politicians have overestimated their
ability to keep that Genie uh anywhere
near the bottle once once it's once it's
out so I think there's a lot of
inflation and so it is a problem that
you need to deal with but I don't think
the solution is to invent a a
make-believe asset and then all pretend
that that make believe asset has value
because of some artificially imposed uh
constraint on Supply
uh and ignore the fact that there's an
unlimited number of other
cryptocurrencies uh that exist that you
know for most practical purposes are
actually better than Bitcoin uh they're
cheaper to use they're faster to use to
the extent that you want to use Bitcoin
which nobody does because it's not a
very good uh
cryptocurrency um I mean it's certainly
uh not a store value but it's not a good
medium of exchange or unit of account I
mean there are plenty of other cryptos
that actually fit that bill better to
the extent that somebody wanted to use
them uh for that purpose but they don't
I mean everybody uses a crypto to gamble
I mean that's uh the the main use case
and in fact uh that's what's happening
now with these ETFs the ETFs have simply
provided yet another way to gamble on on
bitcoin and it's it's ironic now you
have all these people buying Bitcoin
through a third- party custodian who's
charging a fee I mean you're getting
everybody back into the very Financial
system that they were supposed to be
leaving and I keep heing these people on
television say well you know it's so
hard to buy Bitcoin it's so difficult
and this makes it easy now everybody can
buy it I thought everybody could buy it
before the beauty of Bitcoin was
supposed to be it was so simple and easy
you didn't need a third party you didn't
need a custodian you didn't need Service
uh uh Service uh storage charges I mean
so it's all they're doing is now trying
to convince Wall Street to buy this
asset uh which has no fundamental value
has no income has you know no earnings
no nothing but as long as we keep buying
it and nobody sells it well the price
will keep going up and we can all
operate under the delusion that we're
getting rich as long as nobody tries to
get out and everybody keeps pretending
that they've got all this money because
on paper you know uh they've got
something but you know it's going to be
very different when people try to get
out and I think uh it's going to be very
noticeable with these uh uh Bitcoin ETFs
because I think a lot of the money
that's going into the
ETFs uh is is is is trading money I
think a lot of it came out of gold
stocks and if you look at what's
happened in the last week or two uh gold
stocks have been clobbered even though
the price of gold is unchanged to
slightly higher you've seen 10 20% drops
in big gold stocks uh I think maybe
they've been selling them uh to put
money into into Bitcoin ETFs uh but I
don't think that money is married to
those ETFs I think it's there for a
trade a lot of people might even have
stops beneath the market looking to get
out if the market turns uh but I think
people are going to find it's a lot
easier to get money into these ETFs than
to get it out I think it's just going to
go to money Heaven because you know when
when we've had these big drops in
Bitcoin before um you know what tends to
happen to stabilize the market is all of
a sudden there's a bunch of tethers out
there and uh and and and Bitcoin gets
bought uh using you know fake dollars
but when these ETFs when people who own
the ETFs sell now the ETFs take the
Bitcoin that they own and they sell them
on the market they can't they can't get
tether they need real actual dollars
uh to to return uh they can't send the
the the shareholders tether uh so there
could be just a real vacuum uh you saw
like a little blip yesterday I think
Bitcoin dropped
from uh 63,000 or 60 yeah 64,000
whatever it was to under $59,000
$5,000 in I don't know like 30 seconds
uh and you know came back but I mean it
could drop a lot more than that in in 30
seconds or a minute and I think I think
it will uh maybe there's some trouble
we'll see a lot of these Bitcoin mining
stocks in the last couple days have been
clobbered I don't know you know what's
special about them but they've dropped
substantially in the last couple of days
uh so we're starting to see some some
resistance here and some of these names
uh buckling uh but you know this is just
to me it's a speculative U Mania uh and
this is not the answer to the problem
people are creating a whole different
problem uh uh with the with these uh
crypto uh tokens so it
if oh I wanted to say so it's not like I
don't I'm anti- crypto or I don't see
value in crypto it depends on what
you're talking about so if you're
talking about blockchain if you're
talking about the potential to use a
cryptocurrency uh actually as a medium
exchange and a unit of account which
would mean it would be tied to something
with value a stable coin uh obviously if
you if you tie it to something like the
dollar or the Euro you don't have the
real long-term store value you don't
have an inflation Hedge but you do have
a Medi of exchange you have a unit of
account I think the the ideal marriage
uh is between gold and blockchain if you
tokenize gold and put it on a blockchain
uh you can have a unit of uh a Medi of
exchange and a unit of account but you
actually have a real store value you
have something that is a superior uh
monetary instrument to any of the Fiat
currencies that are out there and it's
far superior to to bitcoin because once
you tokenize gold uh and put on a
blockchain the transactions are faster
and cheaper than the transactions with
Bitcoin but you have a real commodity
that can store value see when when
people try to say well Bitcoin is you
know yeah it doesn't work as a currency
but it's a great store of value it's a
lousy store of value because there's no
value you have to have value before you
can store value Bitcoin has a price and
people confuse price with value you
could put a price on anything doesn't
mean it has any value it just means that
somebody wants to buy it uh but they may
want to buy it for all sorts of reasons
people want to buy Bitcoin because they
think it's going to keep going up it's
the greater fool Theory I'm going to buy
it because somebody else will buy it and
pay more uh but that doesn't work
eventually it collapses and and you know
you can't store price you can you can
store value uh and sometimes price can
be very low and there could be good
buying opportunities you can get a good
deal if something of value has a low
price because of the the market at that
moment uh but but Bitcoin only has price
it has no value um and so it can't be a
store value and just because some people
bought it and got rich and and and you
know Ral maybe made a lot of money in
Bitcoin I mean I know a lot of people
who did um I'm here in Puerto Rico with
a lot of Bitcoin whales there are a lot
of guys here that got into Bitcoin ether
or you name it uh early on and yeah they
made a great trade they got into it when
nobody was buying it uh they they put a
big you know money on it and uh it it
went way up but you know you know the
majority of the people who own Bitcoin
are not making a lot of money in Bitcoin
I mean Bitcoin yeah it's back up to
60,000 but it was at 60,000 three years
ago you know it's had a roller coaster
it went down below 20,000 now it's back
up it's it's kind of been moving
sideways uh over the last few years so
it hasn't you know done anything as far
as kept up with inflation over that time
period yeah if you bought it a year ago
on after it dropped and you sell it now
you have a you have a good trade uh but
if you wrote it all the way down and all
the way back up you haven't made
anything and of course if you don't sell
it and it goes right back down and you
know there's no way to know let's say
Bitcoin collapses again from the 60,000
level just like it did a few years ago
it may not stop at you know 19,000 what
if it goes to 10,000 or 5,000 who the
hell knows how low the next drop is
going to be and and maybe after that
happens they manage to get the get the
price back up again and then it
collapses and eventually you know it
collapses and never comes back um so I I
think you know people who are getting
out of the dollar or the Euro and and
buying Bitcoin have jumped out of the
frying pan Into the Fire Ian so you
don't have to reinvent the wheel if you
want to get out of Fiat currencies uh
you can own gold uh but you could also
own other good inflation hedge assets
real assets you know most of my money is
isn't in Gold either I have actually now
I put a lot more money into gold stocks
personally in the last week because I
just thought they were giving them away
and so I I wanted to buy more um but I
have a lot of assets around the world
that I own I own shares of businesses
that generate a lot of income uh selling
products providing services that that
people really need and that people will
pay higher prices to get and those
companies pay me lots of dividends and
as inflation uh you know drives up
prices uh those companies increase their
prices and pay me higher dividends and I
own real assets that are that are not
losing value I own the property the
plant and the equipment you know the IP
uh whatever these companies own that are
tangible real assets if I'm a
shareholder I own a piece of those real
assets and you can own uh you know real
estate you know farmland or you know
land where you know you can grow trees
or mine Metals you know real land
productive land or you can have you know
lands with factories on them or or
things like that uh people own uh you
know residential real estate now or
commercial real estate depending on
where that is uh some of these markets
could could have uh have some problems
uh in the near term uh but you know real
assets are something that you want to
own when inflation is uh is the concern
and likely to get worse you don't want
to own paper you don't want to own uh
Bank deposits you don't want to own
annuities you know things with a fixed
income cash value in an insurance policy
um you know munity bonds these are all
the things that lose value inflation
taxes those those assets and what
inflation really does is it transfers
wealth from
debtors uh from creditors rather to
debtors so the debtors get their debts
wiped out and the creditors see their
their assets wiped out their savings and
you know the the biggest dtor in the
history of the world maybe even the
history of the universe as far as I know
is the United States government and so
the United States government is the main
beneficiary of inflation and and clearly
they're going to create it they they
create inflation because it it suits
their purposes uh the only problem for
them now is they've got this national
debt with such a short maturity that
they're in the predicament where you
know if interest rates go up which they
should uh they're in you know in a in a
huge problem because they can't pay
which means the FED has to play an even
important mon role in monetizing that
debt which is why the risk of inflation
running away is so great so we're
definitely going to go down the Where Do
We Go From Here debt how this is all
going to play out uh but I want to keep
the um the the first Collision Point
here in Focus which is is Bitcoin the
right answer to the problem you guys
both seem to agree on the problem we're
printing money we're creating inflation
uh you've got to find a safe haven where
do you go from there um so my question
is always is a big part of the appeal of
Bitcoin and cryptocurrency in general
simply the volatility and this is a
culture that is responding by becoming
gamblers or is the appeal of Bitcoin
specifically is this a change in the
frame of reference of the Old Guard that
looks at gold which is the result of an
exploding star literally and so hey
you're not going to come by any more of
that very easily and so that's why all
cultures over time have gravitated
towards that provably scarce resource uh
um so is is volatility the thing and one
way to put our finger on whether that is
what is driving um bitcoin's adoption or
not R would be a question for you which
is why didn't
Satoshi tokenize gold and make that
Bitcoin why didn't he back it by
anything other than thermodynamics well
we kind of have a tokenized gold and it
[ __ ] everything up it's called the
Futures Market um that because
still gold is a very physical asset as
Peter rightly says and to move it around
the world is difficult so you're moving
claims around the world even on
blockchain now as far as I'm aware the
maau exchange for gold is going to
tokenize there's a bunch of people
tokenizing gold we've seen gold things
great it's maybe a more efficient
settlement rail or an ownership rail um
but it's not instant transfer of the
actual asset itself if I transfer you a
Bitcoin it goes straight into your
Ledger wallet let's say and you own it
it's yours it's self-
custody gold is more difficult to self
custody just because of its size now
many people around the world do self
custody to their gold and that's fine
too again I don't have an issue but in a
world of 8 billion people where we live
on the internet it actually is nice to
have an asset and Peter's absolutely
right we've meaned a trillion dollar
currency into
existence we've meaned it it's just
human
narrative but guess what so is gold so
is everything that we do including
religion everything is a meme how often
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so mimetics rule the entire way that
humans understand the world around them
and because we believe something to be
true it is is true to us so we believe
that this digital asset that is scarce
is valuable Peter's right there are
other blockchains that are much more
effective and by owning those
cryptocurrencies they're not currencies
and this confusion over there's all
these cryptocurrencies they all
competing against Bitcoin they're not
these are networks where you own a
tokenized part of a network and the
network generates fees you make money
it's like owning shares essentially but
somewhat different Bitcoin itself is
because we believe it to be true it has
the sorts of properties that we as
humans think of as holding
value as does gold certain other things
don't paper physically doesn't right
even paper money but paper itself it
destroys copper over time destroys
silver over time erods but gold doesn't
so gold has this long-term value in a
digital world those properties have been
mimicked but even honed down to a way
that every everything is knowable in
Gold well when the price is high enough
the gold price becomes cyclical because
the miners will find new ways of getting
gold out of the ground and so Supply
adjusts and brings down price which is
fine in Bitcoin you can't do it so it's
really a function of demand in
everything in Bitcoin so it's the
function of how many people believe this
to be true that this asset has value and
when you go back and say well people
shouldn't do this nobody has the right
to tell people what they should or
should not
do this is the best performing asset the
world has ever seen it is up 6 million
per. since we first put it on real
Vision in 20 13 2014 it's up
380,000
W you know I I if if Bitcoin is a
thousand 10 years from now you could
still make the argument it's the best
per per forming asset in the world if
you want to start from that point in
time so it doesn't matter the people
didn't own it when it was pennies that's
a little bit disingenuous because it
actually is the best performing asset in
the world on a 10 year 5e four year
threee 2E oneye basis Well it can't be
on a three-year basis because it's about
unchanged right it was at it was at six
it was over it's all it's record Tak the
alltime high as the yard stick right 3
years ago was March 20 uh was March
2021 it was much lower well when did it
hit 60 65 69,000 when was that like
November 2021 all right so from from
that point but yeah I just made a big
rally it's just Bitcoin is up 40% in the
last few weeks so obviously everything
looks like a valley when you're up on
this hill question is has Bitcoin
performed very well over its time
lifetime the answer
is provably mathematically yes that's
okay doesn't mean you have to like it
doesn't mean you have to like it but
it's provenly gone up more than any
other asset look let's see what happens
when the people who own it want to get
rid of it and do something with it it's
been around a couple points I want
makeer it's been around 14 years we've
gone through four Cycles where it's gone
down
90% and it still is the best performing
asset so your oh my God scenario goes
down 90% I've gone through three of
those myself it doesn't it still doesn't
all right well you're going to go
through another one and it may not come
back next time but the point I want to
make a couple of points that address
what you said so I I I I agree that it
is easier to store Bitcoin I don't know
obviously we don't need these ETFs
that's just the manufacturer to try to
pump up demand but yes it's easy to
store your Bitcoin relative to Gold but
the difference is when you're storing
gold you're storing something and so
since you have something it takes some
effort to to to to store it when you're
storing Bitcoin you're storing nothing
so what good is the fact that it's easy
to store nothing yes I've got a very
safe secure supply of nothing and
Bitcoin though as long as people think
it's going to go up as long as they
maintain that delusion and more people
want to buy it sure it will have a price
and if enough people don't sell it then
some people can't right there are always
going to be some people who can get out
that is the nature of all Investments no
it's not no it's not when you talk about
gold gold is an actual commodity that is
used does what in industry it's used it
has properties
what share of gold usage of gold that's
mined is actually used in manufacturing
no about half of it is used in jewelry
that's jewelry that's just storing of
gold on your physical body how much is
used no that's used I got a gold watch
here I didn't I didn't buy a tin watch
and why did you buy a gold watch because
you want to wear gold because it's no I
can go swimming with the rot watch it's
doesn't rust it looks beautiful it lasts
Scrat it scratches cuz it's gold guys
let me jump in here I want to ask a very
pointed question on that fact so gold if
half of it is being used for jewelry I
think that's a very valid point my
question is how would you feel if
somebody were wearing their crypto punk
as a piece of jewelry but they're not
wearing their Bitcoin they're they're
wearing something that has Bitcoin
written on it there you don't need the
Bitcoin if if you want a gold watch you
got to have gold actually that's not
true Peter because if you have an
inscription on bitcoin like a Bitcoin
ordinal which is an nft yes I know what
those are I created some myself and they
are stored on the blockchain you
actually need Bitcoin for it to exist
yes you need a Satoshi yes you need when
you look on Twitter I have my crypto
Punk that actually is also a claim on
ethereum yeah all right you know but
it's it's it's it's all part of the
speculation of Bitcoin it's not about
wearing your your your jewelry but again
gold gold is a conductor of electricity
it is the best conductor we know it's
the best conductor we have it's used for
all sorts of things in electronics it's
used in medicine it's used in dentistry
it would be used more if the price was
lower but the price is high but the
reason that the price is high is when
you own gold you are
storing the future use of that gold a
thousand years from now somebody could
use that gold to KCT electricity you
don't know what they're going to use it
for I I talked about this this telescope
that we sent into space this Hubble
telescope and they had a coat these huge
mirrors with gold now that was very
expensive they didn't want to coat it
with gold but that was the only metal
that was going to work so they they had
to buy gold to to coat these these these
mirrors
so when you own gold you own all those
properties those properties are not
going to go away over time and you're
storing them for future use Bitcoin
doesn't have anything that anybody uses
for anything I mean as long as people
want to gamble on it uh there's a price
but people don't have to buy gold uh for
money there's always going to be people
who need gold in Industry who are going
to be buying it and central banks yes
central banks buy it as a monetary asset
because they need something to back up
their Fiat they can't just back up one
currency with another currency they need
something real so central banks have
been buying more and more gold uh they
have a lot more that they need to buy uh
because their reserves are still too low
but you don't have that with Bitcoin you
don't have industrial demand you don't
have Central Bank demand you don't have
jewelry demand you just have speculative
demand and that's very fickle yeah if
the Market's going up the speculators
will buy starts going down they're going
to want to get out uh but eventually the
story blows up you know people stop
believing in the fairy tale you know you
talk about all these young kids uh that
think they've reinvented the wheel and
think that they know more than their
parents or their grandparents you know
it's like look you know little kids
believe in all sorts of things they
believe in the tooth fairy they believe
in the Easter Bunny and and Santa Claus
you know but they don't believe in these
things for their whole lives as they get
older uh they they start to uh see the
truth and I think the same thing is
going to happen with with Bitcoin uh
people are going to grow up and they're
going to learn from the mistakes of
their youth really fast I want to jump
in here I don't want to just move past
this idea of uh that gold would be used
more if the price were lower but the
price isn't lower why is the price lower
because it's really thought of as a
store of value as a flex so store of
value and flex seem to be the thing that
actually drive the value of gold um and
I think I have a hypothesis that the
core thing that drives the difference
between you two as archetypes is a
belief that either digital things are
real or digital things are not real
and if you believe like I do um that the
future of the world is more digital
where people will spend more of their
lives in the digital world where I heard
the story of a kid U their parent came
to them and said why do you want a
fortnite skin those aren't real and the
kid was befuddled they had no idea what
the parent meant by it's not real yeah
but that that that argument is is really
a straw man because I believe in digital
things uh like you know music I I listen
I I don't have to go out and buy a a
record I can listen to music digitally
uh there are a lot of things that I can
do digitally but just because I believe
in digital that doesn't mean that I can
eat digital food right food can't be
digital because I'll die if the only
thing I eat is digital food I'm not
going to get enough calories and I'm
going to die I need actual food I can't
replace food with a digital uh image and
that's the same thing with gold gold is
a real metal digital gold is not gold
it's nothing now yes if I want to you
know have a character and I want him to
have all kinds of gold fake gold jewelry
in some video game sure but I mean it's
not worth that much because you could
replicate it indefinitely you don't need
actual gold to have an image of gold on
a computer screen um you know that's why
you know for a while they had people
that were buying digital real estate oh
I got beachfront property well who cares
about beachfront property in a computer
game there's an unlimited Supply that I
mean if you want an actual beachfront
property in the physical world that's
more scarce than a a a a digital Beach
you know that your avatar can can can
can lie on uh so it's very different
it's not like I I'm not into technology
sure I I I can appreciate it but I can't
live in a digital house I can't eat
digital food and we can't have digital
gold Gold's got to be real in order for
it to be gold and do the things gold
does so here's an interesting thing Tom
is is in a digital world we talked about
and rightly as you rightly say every day
is more digital than the last right that
is a endless Trend that we are
seeing and in a digital world we can
make infinite amounts of anything
digital and we've seen that so stuff
like email has gone from being something
we paid for to something that's free
Cloud compute everything compute itself
is exponentially declining in cost
because everything digital almost goes
to zero because you can make infinite
amounts so that's a real problem in a
digital world until the invention of
blockchain which creates digital
scarcity it's a
mathematical way to to create scarcity
so scarcity is the asset that is why
gold is valuable it is a scarce asset
that's why silver is less valuable than
gold there is more silver there's plenty
of silver that's why copper is less
valuable than gold scarcity is what we
as humans value and in a digital world
where everything can be created
infinitely like food in the physical
world what you need to maintain value is
something and that's what blockchain did
so that's why younger Generations who
live more in the digital world say okay
this is great because I'm living in this
digital world and I want to changeable
with my physical world and therefore I'm
happy that digital assets have value and
I can think of Bitcoin as the
foundational value layer for all of this
and that makes sense being scarce is not
enough you have to be scarce and you
have to have valuable properties that
that people want and so gold has very
valuable metallic properties it's the
most useful metal on the periodic table
and yeah there's not a lot of it so it's
something that we need
has it's very useful yet it's scarce so
it's going to have a high price I mean
something like air we all need air right
air is very valuable without air we die
but there's so much of it it doesn't
have a high price because there's
there's a lot of air in the atmosphere
as opposed to how much gold there is in
the ground so you could say yes Bitcoin
is scarce but it doesn't have any value
and so there could be one Bitcoin if
nobody wants it then it's worthless
right now yes people want the 21 million
Bitcoin but I'd rather talk about the
2.1 quadrillion Satoshi because when you
talk about gold in order to actually do
something with gold you need a certain
quantity of gold right a little speck of
it isn't going to do anything you need a
particular quantity to do a job but with
Bitcoin you know whether I have an
entire Bitcoin or one Satoshi doesn't
matter I can't I I I can't do any more
with a Bitcoin than with a Satoshi
because I can't do anything with either
one and and so there really is 21
quadrillion Satoshi so there's plenty of
Satoshi to go around everybody can have
a few hundred thousand of these things
uh on the planet Earth but not only is
there an unlimited supply of of or of or
there's a limited supply of these
Satoshi there's an unlimited supply of
other crypto tokens that can be created
more than 20,000 have already been
created in theory 200,000 2 million can
be created that have properties that are
similar to or even improve on the
properties of Bitcoin uh and so so what
I mean what is value about you yeah
people it's all the rage now people are
talking about it but in a 100 years will
anybody even remember uh what Bitcoin
was I mean most people probably won't
know about it I mean how many people
even know about you know tulip Mania or
stuff like that that happened in the
past or Beanie Babies I mean these
things are like fads they come and they
go I mean some people may study it if
they study history
uh but to think that in a 100 years uh
anyone's even going to be be be thinking
about Bitcoin what gives you the
confidence to say you're so sure what
would say make you say you know what I
don't know this is interesting because
it's obviously obviously people like it
it attracts a lot of investors a lot of
smart people if you go and see Dan
mohead or Dan tapiero do you say listen
guys you guys are morons you're just
believing in some you wouldn't say that
you would well look there are a lot of
people a lot of people on Wall Street
have done foolish things in my lifetime
whether it
wascs uh subprime mortgages I mean
people were doing a lot of foolish
things with their money and and they
lost it uh and I know Wall Street has a
a tendency just to try to make money off
of any fat I mean whatever's popular you
know there's an expression feed the
Ducks while they're quacking and that's
what Wall Street does it's like whatever
the public wants they Supply it and they
take take a fee and and so if they could
get a lot of interest in Bitcoin then
they're going to create these products
and they're going to make it so that uh
people can trade they don't care they're
operating casinos they're they're
they're making they're making money but
what you should think about is not okay
maybe I'm wrong maybe there's a slim
chance that I'm wrong but there's a slim
chance that you're right I mean you're
betting on a long shot the odds are it's
not going to work right so it's it's a
real long shot that that that that this
project is actually going to succeed
right would you be less concerned about
the whole thing if gold had actually
gone
up no I mean look I mean gold has gone
up the pro so gold Min for example gold
mining equities have gone nowhere in 45
years well gold mining equities are not
gold gold mining equities are not gold
so gold gold in the last 100 years has
gone up 100 fold so the dollar has lost
99% of its value and even if you go back
to the year 2000 gold has gone from
under 300 to over 2,000 in the last 20
years so it's just that during the last
10 11 years where Bitcoin has been on
the scene gold has been very stable
while Bitcoin has gone way up that
that's in your your reference point
let's assume you were
less fixed on your view and you saw this
new thing and saw that people also
thought of it in the same kind of way
that people thought about gold and
doesn't it make you go you know that's
fascinating I wonder if this this really
could work in a digital age but instead
you'll say no no chance they shouldn't
buy it they're all idiots what makes you
so sure like I would never say about
gold that's stupid I would say I
understand it of course gold is
interesting but it's it's a weird way to
approach it is here is literally tens of
millions if not hundreds of Millions
people owning something and you're
saying they're all morons I'm
right regardless of the performance of 6
million per it's all just Beanie Babies
is that really what you think I'm not
saying they're all morons there are
people that are trading it because it's
going up and they think they'll get out
before the Music Stops and maybe they
will I me you know how how long does
this go on for I mean we're 14 years in
Peter we're 14 years in what you're
saying is why don't I why I why don't I
accept that nothing is something why
don't I believe in this fantasy like
everybody else why am I the same person
you know when you have all these insane
people you should be asking yourself is
why do I believe this nonsense that you
know I mean there are other smart people
I'm not the only person I can hold two
competing ideas in my head at all times
and it's a probabilistic game it's not
that I don't understand Bitcoin I
understand it that's why I know it's
worthless but there are plenty of other
smart people who look at it the exact
same way as me I'm going to jump in
really fast because the only way forward
is to identify the base assumptions that
Drive Your guys' World Views so as we go
through this uh Peter what comes to the
Forefront from you is that the belief
system is if something doesn't have
intrinsic value then it all it is is
gambling do you agree with that
statement around your beliefs if it
doesn't have intrinsic value it's not
going to be money you know and and and
now currency is a money substitute and
currency doesn't have any intrinsic
value unless it's backed by gold or some
something else but then it that its
value is derived from what backs it up
but a Fiat currencies right which we use
now have no intrinsic value but they
have uh governments behind them uh they
have laws that uh you know make them
legal tender they have a government that
demands payment of taxes in that
currency so you can have a a Fiat system
that will work it won't work as good as
a as an honest system based on gold but
it can it can work temporarily and and
sometimes temporarily can be a long time
but my my my premise is that if Bitcoin
doesn't have an actual use
Beyond uh my giving it to somebody else
or selling it to somebody else whatever
other than as a uh as a as a potential
Exchange if its only us as I can buy it
and sell it to somebody else who buys it
and sells it to somebody else it's a
Ponzi it's a pyramid it's a chain letter
there are a lot of ways to describe what
this is and they've been doing this for
hundreds of years right it's not new all
that's new is the digital part but all
the all the other um uh factors have
have have been tried and you know over
and over again it's just a modern
version of this and it's going to end
end the same way that in all these prior
uh pyramid schemes have fallen apart
okay so I'll say it a different way uh
because I feel like I understand your
beliefs but I'm having a hard time
getting you to agree that I understand
um so gold is back stopped by the fact
that it can be used by other things
therefore it is the wiser um store of
value because the price is never going
to fall below what uh its usefulness in
the real world is well yeah gold is a
commodity like wheat like oil like corn
uh like cotton uh and people need gold
just like they need these other
Commodities the difference is you know
gold is a better commodity to store
because it doesn't tarnish it doesn't
rot it doesn't Decay uh and it's
relatively easy to store I mean it's
certainly a lot easier to store uh gold
than than than cattle you know or oil uh
you know of all the Commodities that you
could choose to store gold is the
easiest and so that's one of the reasons
that that that that we we use it now is
it easier to store Bitcoin yes but then
again you give up the fact that you're
storing something you're storing nothing
right what I'm what I'm trying to get to
is the core of why R I think rightly
from a just understand the world I'm not
saying who's right or wrong I'm just
saying to understand the world uh R's
reaction makes sense if you believe that
belief in the item the the mimic ability
to transfer the belief in the item is is
the thing that matters and I think R
tell me if I'm wrong but that you
believe Gold's value is
driven in the vast majority by the
mimetic belief that gold is a great way
to store value well no it's it's its
value is derived from its properties but
I I I agree that that that Bitcoin
Bitcoin is purely a function of your
belief of confidence it's a giant con
game as long as we all believe it has
value uh then it can have a price and
people will want it but the question is
can you put your faith in that
confidence enduring over time that in
the future people will be just as
infatuated and and hold these beliefs
just as strongly in the future and I
think the far off into the future you
want to extrapolate the harder it is uh
to to to believe that that will be the
case you know tomorrow will people stop
believing in Bitcoin tomorrow probably
not in 6 months well probably not but in
10 years in 100 years the further you go
out at some point yeah what's what's the
odds and so you can't be a store of
value because at any point in the future
there could be absolutely no confidence
whatsoever in Bitcoin you know it's you
know it's to me it's more of a fat yes
people people are are infatuated with it
now because it's gone up and people have
gotten rich and there's all this money
being pumped into it um but who's to say
that that's going to be the case in the
future I think a lot of money is going
to be lost in Bitcoin in fact you know
far more people are going to lose money
in Bitcoin than than have made money in
Bitcoin that is very possible so what I
I want to be clear what I'm trying to do
right now is simply State what you guys
believe to be true not convince you of
anything else because uh we are in a
battle for ideas in the greater world
and so I want people to understand the
base assumptions that drive your guys'
worldview so they can form their own uh
Peter I feel very confident in saying
that you believe the reason that gold
has value is because it has intrinsic
physical properties that people can use
and that makes it valuable uh and so
that becomes a game of I don't need
people to believe so even if belief
drives a certain amount of this it it
really has usefulness and that is ground
Truth for Peter shiff and gold the
properties don't always have to be phys
physical they could be intangible right
you know there's a value there uh so I'm
not I'm not against aged intangible uh
assets uh you know okay perfect so now
on the Bitcoin side on R your argument
and take this up and tell me if I'm
wrong is that we are entering a phase of
perception where the mimic value the
belief that computers for instance are
the future it's a Bedrock that people
grow up with that a certain subset of
the world and I actually put myself in
this so I don't have to project into
other people um that they believe that
the thermodynamics that you can
represent on the blockchain to produce
the Bitcoin is is real is as real as an
exploding star therefore all that's
needed is the
mimetic spread of that belief and if
that belief takes hold and it one
hypothesis I don't know that this is
true but one hypothesis about why gold
is not going up in this time of massive
inflation and uncertainty but Bitcoin is
despite volatility is that that belief
is becoming more and more common now who
ends up being right on a long enough
timeline financially we will get to but
I just want to lay out and R please tell
me if you disagreed with what I just
said that seems to be the set table just
so we clarify something just using
technology chat GPT 4 um and the world
gold Council 10 7 and a half to 10% of
gold Supply every year is used for use
so 90% is
mimetics to 92 and a half% it's we
believe it to be
so okay so that is an element of
humanity but what you're touching on is
okay the technology itself there are
some elements of that if we believe it's
scarce enough we can attach a value to
to it that's memetics there is also the
elements of okay the Bitcoin mining
itself has
created opportunities so for example we
are seeing in the Middle East using gas
flare offs which is wasted energy
reusing the energy to
create tokens which then are used to
release that we're seeing it with low
balancing so there's an element of it's
a way of sharing electricity in a world
that doesn't do that very easily but
it's also something more the physical
property here is actually the physical
property of the blockchain itself the
reason this goes up so fast is not
because of mania it's because it's an
adoption of a technology it's metcar law
so what you're finding is networks as
they gain adoption price gets a bit
crazy now in 20 years time will bitcoin
price be as crazy highly unlikely
because it gets to maturity and it looks
more like a mature asset so people get
confused
what we're doing here is saying what
bitcoin's price is doing is saying yes
there's the element of memetics it has
this scarce value nothing in the digital
world has scarcity so this is
interesting for Humanity it's not proven
it's not had a thousand years of History
it's interesting it also has interesting
properties in how it can reuse wasted
energy or rebalance energy loads okay
that's interesting but also what is the
future expected value of the blockchain
itself now we may say today or we would
have said a year ago well Bitcoin
blockchain is not very useful but now
we've started to see these ordinals and
inscriptions which is using the
blockchain for other things we're seeing
other use cases of layer 2os built on
b