Kind: captions
Language: en
Netflix has become shorthand for uh you
know just sort of a meme life of a guy
sitting in a dark room smoking weed red
eyes not going to bed almost sort of
staying up out of spite to like you know
you to my boss who I guess controls my
day and so by me staying up late I'm I'm
controlling my time
but I have a feeling that what's going
on is people aren't in control of their
emotions so they're not framing this
hard time that they are legitimately
going through they're not framing it in
in a way that will allow them to act
productively so they then feel a way
they don't want to feel they don't see
an outlet through Behavior to fix it so
they start consuming consuming consuming
alcohol weed porn Netflix whatever which
all of those things can be fun in the
right amounts at the right time um does
that seem true to you that this is
ultimately them trying to numb out
effectively well well um it's very
difficult to be a human being let's
let's start at a very basic level going
back to our earliest
ancestry so unlike animals we are not
programmed now animals aren't completely
programmed that's a myth but they're
much more programmed than we are by
their instincts so a leopard doesn't
wake up in the morning and go what am I
going to do today am I going to hunt
this animal or that no I think it's kind
of cloud no they don't they don't have
that choice we do and that's what makes
us aimless that's what makes us wake up
in the morning go man what am I going to
do so what that means what that
translates into is the human being has
emptiness has a hole inside of ourselves
a hole that we need to fill in some way
because we have incredibly active Minds
The the brain if you break it down as I
said earlier we should be fetishizing it
if you study the brain in in a larger
sense it's absolutely astounding the
powers that it has the amount of neural
Pathways that connect the complexity of
it and the activeness of it I meditate
every morning and as I try and still my
mind whoa thoughts are coming like this
you can't believe how active your mind
is you're just not aware of it and but
we have this emptiness we don't know
what to fill it with this mind is active
we're not programmed we don't know what
to do and because of that emptiness we
have to fill it with something we're
restless and and if we don't know what
to fill it with we're just going to
consume consume consume consume consume
as a way to kind of deal with that empty
feeling as you say to numb ourselves
we're going to eat eat eat we're going
to watch movies we're going to binge
watch we're going to get addicted to
porn because it's filling that emptiness
it's taking that AC of mind and it's
dumb it's numbing it and it's like you
know it seems satisfying because we
don't have to deal with these other
things so you have to be aware that you
have this emptiness inside of you
everybody does I have it everyone does
but my life the way I go and I don't
mean to be put the focus continually on
me is I wake up every up every morning
now because I've reached this position
and I want you to have this this
privilege that I have I'm not saying
that I feel so great I want you to have
it I have this feeling I wake up in the
morning I know what I have to accomplish
I know what my goals are I know what I
have to do that particular day I know
what I have to do that particular week
these are the things that I can do to
fill that emptiness to program to give
myself a purpose to have that North Star
that you're talking about and yes within
those parameters I can waste some time
reading about the Lakers on on
lakersground.net you know it's website
that I that I lurk in or I can read
articles that have nothing to do with my
life you know I can go on and on I can
waste time but I have a general
parameter I don't have that gnawing
emptiness that has to be continually
filled by consuming consuming consuming
so be aware that your mind is so active
that you have to have something to fill
it but it's your choice whether you're
just going to consume mindless stuff or
you're going to actually use that
Restless active brain of yours and put
it to some incredible function how do
they figure out what incredible function
to put it to well that's the million
dooll question and that's why I wrote my
my fifth book Mastery um so I have a
chapter one in Mastery called um
discover your life's
task and it's not easy and I don't have
like a formula for it but I I kind of
lay out the process that could lead you
to it so if you're 22 or or
younger then it's it's pretty clear what
you have to do and it's not so difficult
if you're 29 30 gets more complicated if
you're 40 it's very difficult if you're
50 it's almost impossible so the younger
you go through this process the better
and what it entails is figuring out what
makes you unique in life and I don't
mean like total weirdness unique I don't
mean that you have to be like some
flamboyant rock star Etc it can be what
makes you unique as an entrepreneur as a
business person what makes you unique as
a social individual as somebody who
likes to interact with people what makes
you unique in any Endeavor right going
into looking at your childhood and being
honest with yourself and
saying I'm I'm mening this thing now
that I'm 22 but it's not really me it's
what my parents want me to be interested
in it's not really me because it's what
other peers think is cool right now it's
not really me because of blah blah blah
blah blah what is really me okay so you
got to peel away these layers and you
got to come at so when you were born I
like into what a seed is planted that
seed is your uniqueness because a your
DNA has never existed in the history of
the universe and never will exist again
okay it's impossible it's so unique
B your parents are not like any other
parents and they're going to raise you
in a way that's different from any other
parenting couple in in the history C
you're going to have early experiences
that are not like anybody else that is
unique that is you that is what
separates you from the 100 billion I I I
narrowed it down how many humans have
left lived in the because I had it in
one of my chapters I think it's 100
billion somewhere around that 110
billion ever This Is What Separates Me
from Homo sapiens let's draw that line
who have ever lived before okay and it's
real it
exists and it's not like a single thing
it's not like oh I was meant to be a
fireman oh I was meant to be a
politician it's vaguer than that it has
to do with things that attract you
whether it's Sports and and your body
whether it's mathematics or music music
or whether it's words and literature or
whether it's social things or whether
it's building building a house carpentry
or building a business
Etc what is it that excites me what is
it that I'm drawn towards what I call
your Primal
inclinations going through that process
and figuring out digging up that seat
and figuring out what it is is the most
should be the most exciting process in
your life because if you do it all the
stuff that we're talking about all the
bad circumstances of the world
everything you're facing you will
reverse that power you will discover
your superpower you will be motivated
you will find the energy right you will
know what to ignore it's not worth my
time to be watching this podcast to
reading this book it's not worth my time
to be wasting my energy doing this that
or the other I know what I want
okay when you're 21 or 22 man you could
go if you figure that out it doesn't
have to be so specific it just has to be
this is the general direction I want in
my life these are the people that I want
to end up being like even though I'm
going to be myself in that within those
parameters then the world will open up
for you and you'll have a little bit of
that radar that will guide you through
life
okay if you're 30 years old it's
different in the 30 years old you go
through the thing of where did I go
wrong because you wouldn't be going
through this process unless you went
wrong if you're going right then you
don't need you can ignore everything
most likely you where did I go wrong why
am I in this [ __ ] job why am I unhappy
why am I drinking why am I addicted to
this the other thing my frustration my
unhappiness is speaking to me it's
telling me something it's telling me
that I took a wrong turn all right now
go back and figure out where you took
the wrong turn and what it was where you
how you can perhaps correct your path
how do you solve for that how do you go
back and figure out where the wrong turn
was well you're um so often times uh you
choose a wrong path for reasons that
have to do with
money with what you think is status what
other people think is cool so um look at
your first choices like you're 23 years
old and you decided to go work for like
a big
Corporation and now it's sucking your
soul out and you feel empty and
frustrated okay I'm frustrated I'm
unhappy
well I chose to work in this kind of
soulless environment and I quit when I
was 27 and then I started working as a
barista okay okay I went wrong there all
right so that's not where I was meant to
go all right what was it out of college
that I really wanted to do what was it
that excited me what is the path I would
have taken perhaps if I hadn't listened
to my parents or I hadn't followed this
I this dumb idea what is it that that I
could have done and at that point if you
can be have just a tincture a little
flash of Enlightenment about that then
you can start building on it and you
start going all right I took this wrong
path all right now I have to head it in
a different direction I'm not going to
give up I'm not going to stay being a
barista because that's not going to lead
anywhere I have to figure out a career
for myself that I can't give up the
eight years I spent out of college
because that's that's us useless that's
not going to go anywhere you're not 22
anymore all right I have to adapt what I
learned in that time and I have to apply
it in a different direction so you're
going this way your decision now isn't
to go this way it's to go this way or
this way a subtle little deviation
closer towards what you were meant to
what excites you and I have people
who've written to me about the course
Corrections they've taken they went from
being a lawyer to being a writer about
legal issues they went from a lot of
podcasters believe it or not have a very
similar story they went into the wrong
profession and then they discovered that
what they really liked was
podcasting and they applied so I just
had a interview recently with Andrew
huberman you know one of the most
successful podcasters of our era
brilliant man a neuroscientist he was a
neuroscientist working for a university
Etc
he was really really unhappy about all
the politicking and he told me that he
read Mastery and Mastery had a very huge
impact on him and I I don't want to take
credit but kind of to him it saved his
life wow he decided he had to get into
podcasting that he loved interviewing
people that he loved the interaction
with other people instead of having to
do all the research he wanted to be able
to take that research and apply it to
his interviews and interview fascinating
people okay it's a very common scenario
among people in the podcasting business
but there are other scenarios that
people have written to me about who have
made that course correction in their
late 20s I talk about in master I talk
about Paul Graham who was a master in
artificial intelligence in the 70s when
it was just a little baby about to be
born was just in the first
instances and he was a computer hacker
and he didn't enjoy it he hated working
for companies so he went off and became
an artist he just studied painting in
Italy he came back to New York he was
kind of living in a loft and in New York
very poor but he was kind of enjoying it
and then he heard an ad on on the radio
for this new online this is 1994 mind
you this new online world of advertising
and marketing and selling products that
was about to happen and he got very
excited and he goes well I'm poor I
don't mind being poor but maybe I could
make some money and and still have my
life and so he decides he's going to
take all his computer skills and he's
going to combine them with all that he
learned in art and he's going to design
a very aesthetic a very pleasing a very
userfriendly site for selling products
on the internet it ended up turning to
something that Yahoo bought for $5
million back then and then he became a
billionaire on and on and on he made a
course correction kind of thing so
it's possible it's very common scenario
when you're 29 30 years old it's not so
common when you're 40 but I have heard
some stories it's pretty much I've never
really heard it when you're in your 50s
so tell me about that
so what is it that makes it impossible
is it just the people can't muster the
will because they don't think they have
enough working years left is nothing is
impossible so I overstated the case but
it's unlikely first of all you're said
is it unlikely due to a flaw or well as
you get older you get rigid you think
you know all the answers you're used to
you have habits you my life isn't at all
what I thought it would be I'm 50 years
old but I know all the answers yeah
that's terrifying yeah uh um I I have
habits is you're not aware of it but
you're not so fluid you're not so
flexible you think you know what you
know what what the right path is you're
not willing to admit your mistakes
because then that throws open when
you're when you're 30 you go okay I made
eight years of mistakes when you're 50 I
made 28 years of mistakes and that's a
painful realization and we don't like to
have painful realization what's your
advice though to somebody like that
because let me tell you if you and I are
friends I'm dangerously close to 50 as
it is but if I get to 50 and I'm like
hey uh made a lot of mistakes picked the
wrong path I I want you to kick me in
the ass make sure that I don't just
resign what would you say to somebody in
that position well it's it's actually
not so difficult because you have
accumulated hopefully a set of skills
maybe one skill maybe two skill maybe
three skills if it were in the case of
you it was creating a product marketing
it then being a podcaster then creating
this this Animated World then this
educational stuff you've got four five
sets of real skills there but you're not
satisfied how can I take these skills
and a package them and move in a
different direction that is a new
frontier for me that excites me that
builds on what I have so it's actually
an advantage in a weird way but the
disadvantage is you're rigid you're set
in your H in your ways you think you
know the answers you're not so fluid
anymore you're not willing to make a
change in your thinking to
going it's
2028 whenever you turn 50 I'm just
speculating and uh the world is really
different now it's not the way it was in
2012 when I was building my Empire etc
etc am I willing to now face
2028 and the altered landscape which
means altering how I think and how I
adapt and not not being so said in ways
like Robert Green is about AI maybe AI
is a fantastic tool you know I realize
my limitations I know I'm an old man I
know I'm a dinosaur I'm aware of that
but am I willing to shake myself up and
go it's 2028 the world is different
people are young they don't think the
way I think anymore it's a whole new
generation I have to I have to be sharp
I have to alter my game I take those
skills that I have I adapt it to this
new world to this new AI Frontier I hate
to say it kind of makes me nauseated but
okay I have to adapt myself to this new
frontier can I do it cuz when you get
older it's hard to do that it's hard to
say I'm dealing with a new generation
I'm dealing with a new landscape I'm
dealing with my own obstacles and my set
ways of doing things can I overcome them
you know kind of
thing okay so if I did all that calculus
and I was like yeah no I'm uh I'm done I
don't I don't have it in me to keep
going
um what would you say
well um you have to find energy and love
in life and
so maybe um there's something that
you're
doing that maybe isn't going to be so
thrilling like this new career path that
I'm saying but it will be more
energizing you have to challenge
yourself so a lot of um feeling stale
and lifeless is you've run out of
challenges you've conquered
you've done with certain things but now
it's it doesn't it's not you don't need
to rise to the occasion anymore you've
kind of reached this Plateau you need to
create a challenge for yourself so
within the business that you have that
you've been doing whether you're working
at a in an office for someone else or
you've started your own business I'm
going to do something a little bit bold
I'm going to start a new Venture that's
just like my old Venture based on all
the same skills but it's a bit of a risk
to take a risk to shake yourself up a
little bit you know it's not a similar
thing but with me and my
books I never try and do the same book
over right because I know if I did I'd
be bored as hell I need challenges my
mind is so active I can't even describe
it's terrifying sometimes and if I am
bored I don't have the energy and I get
frustrated I get depressed so each book
has to be different has to challenge me
it has to go you've never done this
before you might fail you might not make
it what you thought you did you better
you better be up to the challenge it
excites me so if you're stale you need
challenges doesn't mean you have to make
a career change but you have to take
some kind of risk if you come to me
after this next book which I'm sure will
be amazing and you even half reach
towards the I'm tapping out Bell
uh if you're just done and retired and
you're super passionate to go travel or
something like that cool I'm going to
clap and I'll help you ring the bell but
if you're doing it because some part of
your spirit has been
broken I'm going to be Hey listen this
is an identity problem right now you are
allowing yourself to be uh cowed by a
terrible set of [ __ ] values and you
need to right now decide what ought
someone do with their life like what
should you be doing with your life and
this is where everybody [ __ ] hates
moralizing but I think people need to
moralize in their own life people need
to have a sense of like what should life
be like when we look at the landscape of
a life well-lived what what ought it be
for me you should be trying to ring
every bit of potential out of your life
so cool maybe your last book bored the
[ __ ] out of you fine do something
totally new I'm here for it but find
something that's going to make you feel
feel alive I have done jobs that made me
feel the exact opposite and I would give
up Creature Comforts I would give up
money I would give up just about
anything to feel alive and so when I
watch people live lives of quiet
desperation most men lead lives of quiet
desperation thorow whoever said that so
it's like hey no way like that is crazy
people need bright lines in their life I
I will never get addicted to drugs
because I just would tell myself there's
a bright line you can't do whatever
substance more than twice a week three
times a week whatever the second I'm
doing it more than that I know that I
have a violation and I'm going to
immediately address it it's like if I'm
feeling I'm not going to allow myself
see how many people I can piss off with
this I'm not going to allow myself to
sit in depression I may not be able to
stop myself from getting depressed but
I'm not just going to allow myself to
sit and wallow in it this goes back to
I'm not going to trust my emotions I'm
going to ask myself what my value system
is is my value system that hey if you're
suffering you just sit in it no so it's
like people need to address this stuff
so having a biological experience
there's something going on in in my
brain in that case or gut and I need to
address it and so figuring out what
exactly that is and then making sure
that I'm making changes based on value
system frame of reference beliefs to
ensure that I'm moving towards my North
Star and I can only imagine if somebody
doesn't know me and they're hearing this
for the first time this is going to
sound so paana everything in my life is
because that's how I respond to
everything every time I've had just a
grotesque challenge uh yeah Jesus Christ
the number of things that I've been
through in 20 plus years of business uh
it's crazy and inevitably you hit hard
times brutal times soul sucking times
whatever whatever and I have realized
that all of my SE success is predicated
on one simple thing never quit and I
don't quit because I'm able to recharge
Myself by going through the process that
I just walk through should you come to
me and say that yeah some part of my
spirit has been
broken well I don't think that'll happen
you're not talking about me personally
no I'm just saying like this is
obviously at the end I'm talking to
myself in all of this as a reminder to
how I'd want to react but I really do
try to frame episodes around okay there
is a person watching the show they are
in this case uh they're feeling hopeless
they are being consumed by this moment
in time and the realities of their life
because I the most horrible thing about
excuses is that they're valid and so
people have valid reasons to feel
hopeless but and now what like what are
you going to do and so if people just
allow themselves to sit in that that
that is a value system problem you have
to build a frame of reference that moves
you towards your North Star and unless
hopelessness is your North Star there's
clearly a problem yeah yeah so um to me
that North Star is a sense of purpose
which makes everything else kind of fold
into what you're talking about and fit
so you don't need anything else so when
you have a sense of purpose when you
know what makes you unique when you know
what your calling is in life then if you
hit a moment where you want to quit you
know all right I'm not going to quit I
just need to go a slightly different
direction here because I know that that
this is what I was meant to do these are
my strengths these are my good qualities
Etc and you know I'm I don't like
talking about myself so much but here I
here I go talking about myself again
um when I was in my mid 20s I was you
know in my journalism career I was very
unhappy it wasn't working for me I was
depressed so I go and I leave and I go
to Europe and I travel Europe and I had
a heck of fun I was seducing I was
seeing incredible things I was learning
languages I was trying to write novels
but I was poor and I was starting to get
older and I was going God this isn't
working and I got very depressed then I
came back to Los Angeles and I go I know
I'm going to become a screenwriter it's
Hollywood hooray I'm going to make money
but I'm going to write it's going to be
fine I like theater it's going to be
exciting I start going in I hate
Hollywood it's soulless I'm not very
good at it I start getting very
depressed probably the most depressed
I've ever been in my life at that point
in my one-bedroom apartment in Santa
Monica as I said I probably had moments
where I was slightly suicidal I know I
did I'm not wasn't slightly I was I was
depressed and I was like God damn it
what am I meant to do in life and then I
had a fortuitous encounter with a man
who produces books he asked me for an
idea for a book and I kind of improvised
the 48 loss of power and it all fell
into place but my lesson is my long my
long-winded story is I got depressed I
got down on myself but I never gave up I
kept saying I'm meant to write I'm a
good writer I have a way with words I'm
undisciplined I have flaws I'm not good
at anything else but I can write I have
a message I have something to say say
and it kept me going it kept me going
after all of these circumstances in
which I think a lot of people would have
given up at that point and I didn't give
up because I had that inner voice saying
you're meant to write you're you're good
at it you've developed skill don't give
up keep trying keep trying keep trying
it picked me up every single time and so
when I look at people and I go they
don't have that and I understand that
it's very sad because if they face
situation like that they do they give up
and then they they go funnel down a dark
tunnel a dark path in life and so that's
why I wrote Mastery I don't want you to
get into that that downward syndrome I
want you to see the fact that you have
an overall frame an overall purpose that
gives you that radar so when things are
bad you don't give up you just say I
need to make a slight course correction
to where I'm going in life
life yeah it's interesting I think
people have a really hard time building
out the road map I think that uh to be
nearly 40 for things to not have worked
out I think as you well know that's a
very hard place for people to be in I
think the scarier thing is to want to be
a writer but you're not a good writer
and I can imagine there's a lot of
people that finally figure out okay this
is what I was quote unquote meant to do
but they actually suck at it
it's very true and people have presented
that to me as if it's like maybe a kind
of a flaw in my theory and I and I and I
knock my head against it and the only
thing I can say
is if you were young if you were three
or four years old or five and you
decided that you wanted to
write then you would have built the
right skill you would have known that
because you had a flare you had a love
of
language and you realized it because you
were reading books and you just were
attracted to words and you would have
built those skills you would have
developed them but the reason you're a
bad writer is you chose writing when you
were 10 12 15 years old because you
thought it was cool because you read a
book you thought H this would be
something you thought it was easy you
thought I I write everybody writes I can
become a writer I think you chose a
false path now maybe I'm justifying that
to myself but I I think if you had a
true love of words you would have found
yourself a niche to where you would have
mastered you would have spent Life Time
developing those skills like I spent 18
years more developing writing skills I
was terrible I failed again and again
but I was developing skills you weren't
developing those skills because you were
kind of half asked about it and that's
why you failed it wasn't what you were
meant to do and you know somebody once
said Robert you talked about 10,000
hours which some people dispute is
actually valid Theory blah blah blah
which I think is [ __ ] but I've been
painting since I was 18 years old I'm
now in my
50s I've put in my 10,000 hours and I'm
not Leonardo da Vinci what are you
talking about well I go you put your
10,000 hours in over 33 years if you had
put those 10,000 hours from the age of
18 to 24 and starved because you
couldn't make a living instead of
becoming Insurance Brokers which is what
you are you would have developed those
skills in that year you would have put
the 10,000 hours in a condensed period
of time but you didn't because you
really heart wasn't into it your heart
was into making money and being
comfortable because to be an artist you
have to be willing to starve I was asked
by an online coach if they needed to
build their own app in order to launch
their business I told them what I'm
telling you now focus on what you're
great at and leave the tech to online
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and join the creators and entrepreneurs
who have made over $6
billion to be a writer you have to be
willing to be a failure and you have to
be willing to be alone do you know how
lonely it is is to be a rider you're not
out there having drinks with friends
going to parties you're in your goddamn
office alone without any distractions
you have to have a stomach for a
loneliness for facing a blank piece of
paper it's not easy and if you're not
truly into it you won't make the effort
to get over that mountain and develop
the real skills so that's why I think
people generally become like a mediocre
writer 40 they go [ __ ] man Robert Green
is wrong I I don't this isn't meant for
me blah blah blah it's interesting I
think all of that is true the only thing
I disagree with is I don't think
anybody's meant for anything I think
there are definitely things you're going
to get a disproportionate return on but
I'll give you an example of a uh no
longer super young man that I know uh
who went to film School graduated
thought he would get the three picture
deal he didn't he went into business as
a way to get rich so that he could build
his own
studio uh thought it would take 18
months it took 15 years and in the end
he realized oh my God I spent 20 years
plus now at this point uh this he is me
um it's you oh yeah I always knew I
wanted to be a Storyteller but I got to
my mid-40s before I actually was able to
put time and energy into doing it and so
for you could certainly say that I made
a whole series of bad choices it's hard
to cry about it recording this in my
fancy house uh but the reality is if I
had to do it over again I would
certainly do it differently and but the
way that I approach it is that now I
just need to get good at the thing so
what I worry about is that what people
are really doing is measuring themselves
against a financial yard stick or
they're measuring themselves against how
that person has a bestselling book and I
don't and my thing is okay you're asking
yourself the wrong question the question
people think they're supposed to ask
themselves is what would I do uh if I
knew I couldn't fail terrible [ __ ]
question what you should be asking
yourself is what would I do and love
every day even if I were failing because
hey the odds of you failing are very
high but if you're pursuing something
that you actually love and care about
then it's like cool pour yourself into
getting good at it value yourself for
this sincere Pursuit maybe you never get
there but man if you actually value
yourself for the sincere Pursuit and
you're pursuing something that you
actually enjoy the doing of which is the
only part of it I can guarantee because
no one can guarantee success then cool
you I won't say you can't lose but I
will say that man do you take the sting
out of that loss by being like I've
really enjoyed this so for instance when
I first founded impact Theory the number
of people that offered me ownership in a
company come run this new uh food
company or whatever so I had so much
credibility in that space and I turned
them all down and they were why I'm
starting a media company I'm going to
beat Disney
and everybody was like well that's dumb
because you don't have any experience in
that area you just had a historic exit
from a food company you should be doing
food and that would have made me more
money but that would have also made me
miserable and
so I had to figure out what do I value
myself for because if I build my
self-esteem around money success
accolades whatever I'm going to be
miserable but if I build my self-esteem
around the sincere pursuit of something
that makes me feel alive cool now now
we're in but you have to be very
thoughtful about what you value yourself
for okay a couple of things um so it's
very hard to keep at something if you
get no validation for it so if you want
to write and I know this from personal
experience and you never get anything
published and or you get it and only a
few people read it and you get bad
reviews it's very hard to keep going
it's very difficult to keep pushing and
pushing and pushing right and so if you
I actually believe that if you spend the
time that apprenticeship phase and you
are earnest about it and you're
self-aware and you're looking not just
at yourself and what you love but you're
aware of what the world is and what the
market is for books that you will find
an audience that you will find a niche
but you somewhere went wrong and where
you went wrong was you didn't pay deep
attention you didn't pay deep attention
to your to where your business was going
to the times to your audience and you
failed in that way so it's not just a
matter of the 10,000 hours it's also
being aware of the cultural moment that
you're living through and being just
aware in general of how things are
changing and what your audience is and
what will feed the public right now as
it is and so you failed at that and and
if you
hadn't guarantee that you'd be a
successful author now as far as your
story is concerned I have a much
different take on it but I'm not you
which is nothing you did was wrong
everything you did was right and it and
it was a link and a chain that led you
to your mid-40s or you're about to have
fantastic success so if you were 30 and
you went through a different process and
you go I'm just going to go right ahead
into animation I'm not going to do this
other stuff that's that distracted me I
don't I don't know if I'm going
correctly into your story but something
else would have happened something else
would have turned wrong but everything
fits into place Amor Fati everything has
a purpose You Were Meant To Go off into
these side roads and discover yourself
and you're tougher for it and you're
stronger and you've learned incredible
lessons that are now going into what
will be a mega successful business I
have that attitude because I think it's
the best attitude to have have no
regrets everything what I learned from
so even my bad jobs and I've had do you
know how many bad jobs I've had I've
worked in in construction in gree a
miserable job I worked in a hotel I
worked in a detective agency which might
sounds like fun but it was very
depressing I was a waiter I had a whole
string of crap jobs I know what that's
like you know but I learned from every
single one of them I learned about human
nature I learned about how horrible can
people can be which went into the 48
Laws of Power I learned how manipulative
people can be which went into the 48
Laws of Power I learned how to observe
people I learned what I didn't love
everything my motto in life on my
Tombstone is everything is
material everything is wood for the fire
as to quote Marcus aelius it's all going
into that fire and it's all for a reason
and a purpose and maybe it's not true
but it's the most beautiful philosophy
you can adopt in life it's interesting
um we have we are achieving the same
outcome but viewing it incredibly
differently so for me I I don't mind
being wrong I don't mind having mistakes
and so I don't mind and this may just be
how we think about the word regret I
don't mind having regrets I don't I
don't mind that I would do it
differently if I had to do it over um I
can't do it over and I love the way my
life turned out and I don't have a beef
with it it's just I don't want to lie to
myself and say uh oh no no I did it
perfectly everything happens for a
reason I don't think things happen for a
reason other than that you when it when
it goes Ary it is because I am dumb and
did the wrong things uh that that is a
reason um but yeah I don't know that
doesn't bother me in fact I find it more
empowering to say oh yeah I [ __ ] that
up but I learned from it and so that was
useful in the end anyway that's the same
thing that I'm saying that's what I mean
we've we've come to like the same
conclusion but through a different means
okay um because very much I I don't know
why I rebel against the idea of Fate uh
I suppose I can quote The Matrix and say
I just hate the idea that my life is not
in my control um so it's far more
interesting to me to say oh things don't
happen for a reason there is no net
under this tight rope I'm walking on if
I fall I may truly fall to my death
things don't happen for a reason there
is no grand plan here no one's coming to
save me I have to do this myself and I
won't do it perfectly I will make
mistakes
and so I'm not going to Value myself for
doing things perfectly that's a suicide
mission but I never said it it's perfect
all the twists and turns of my life
weren't perfect they were terrible they
led to depression but they happened for
a reason they made me stronger I learned
from them so you can have a bad
experience and you can throw your hands
up in the air go damn it why did that
happen I should have done something
differently or you can go this is what
Amor Fati means I can learn from it
it happened for a reason it taught me
something it taught me that this was the
wrong thing I should do it taught me
that I am intended to do something
differently everything in life is a
lesson is teaching me and I do believe
in fate and I do believe in in there do
you believe your whole life is on Rails
though no this that's mechanistic for me
well there's a great book written by
Robert Hillman that I recommend for
everybody called the soul code and he
explains in modern terms that's not so
woo woo about what that fate can mean
can you Channel it I'm getting tired and
it's hard but I'll try um so you have
your
genetics okay you don't control your
genetic makeup right it's sending you on
a path you think that it's all luck and
chance but no you you have genetics you
have DNA that is controlling some of
your
behavior and it's setting you into
patterns of behavior okay some of those
patterns can be very positive and some
of them can be negative but what you
were what happens in life is kind of
actually under your control and the Fate
is saying that because it's something
that is sort of inscribed in your
genetic code it was meant for you to to
happen that way and you see it and you
actualize it and you make it a positive
thing you discover what that seed is
what you were meant to accomplish in
life you realize your fate so there's a
quote that I use in Mastery by pindar I
hope I can remember um see who you are
by becoming who you are so you see what
your fate is and you become that fate
and you realize it by your
self-awareness so a lot of people don't
realize what they were meant to
accomplish in life and then they they're
just failures and that's what their fate
is right but I realized what my fate was
it guided me it didn't mean I was
destined to work at Esquire magazine
when I was 23 years old and and hated
didn't mean that I was destined to work
for this director in Hollywood and have
a terrible experience it just meant that
I was faded to have paths in life that
didn't lead to what I wanted and I would
realize and go I need to keep doing this
it meant I was meant to be a writer and
I hung on to it I'm not giving robbert
Hillman justice as I said I'm kind of
tired but that's that's how I look at it
it's not this woow woo thing that
everything in life is determined do you
understand the difference I do I feel
like um for me it's almost certainly
just semantics there might be some uh
real
thing that I just don't like cuz clearly
Rober your life's amazing so if that's
the way that you have dealt with
everything uh then that's phenomenal and
it works for you and the last thing I'd
want to I'm not trying to convince you
my way is right I'm just um laying out
the way that resonates with me is that I
like to remind myself that sometimes
things go wrong because I was stupid and
I didn't think about it
properly um I'm not it wasn't faded for
me I don't need to love what happen
happened I can just say cool learn from
this and so there is a a
self I'm poking in the ribs to remind
myself hey if you go on autopilot again
odds are you going to make that same
mistake so you need to be we're just
arguing over semantics because we're
saying the same thing in the end okay
maybe I think we are we'll see there
could be second and third order
consequences I'm not anticipating but
yeah look no I think that we ultimately
get keep getting to the same place
through a slightly different means yeah
cuz I'm not saying that my mistakes were
perfect I'm just saying that they it's
the same thing we're just are we should
we should move on here because I believe
we're saying the same thing it's just
that I am stupid I have flaws I make
mistakes but I learn from them I realize
that they happen for a reason and
they're teaching me something about
myself so we're saying the same thing I
believe yeah it's interesting I want to
let it go but you use the words it's
teaching me and I think it's important
for people to understand it's not going
to teach you [ __ ] you're going to have
to learn like you have to be the active
participant in this it won't happen by
accident anyway we'll stop there with
that yeah but if if if you're aware of
what you were meant to accomplish in
life you will learn yeah I don't agree
with that all right all right so
interesting uh so what's that arante
what does that mean that means just
forward in Spanish okay perfect forward
we go uh let's let's build people back
up we've talked a lot about the problem
we've talked about how you can find
yourself in in some pretty Dire Straits
um so for me it would be all right you
have to figure out where you want to go
you have to know that with with a
Clarity that's terrifying yeah you have
to have a set of values and beliefs that
are going to essentially force you to
act in the ways you would need to act in
order to accomplish that um what's your
setup for people if they want to
well the problem with with how you laid
it out is it sounds kind of dire it
sounds kind of dreary man I have to go
through all of that yes that's like man
I don't it's not even worth it I'm just
going to give up I'm just going to keep
smoking pot it's a lot more fun if that
were true I'd leave people alone I think
what I try to appeal to people is it's
fun when you figure it out life becomes
thrilling it becomes an adventure you
know that okay I'm in my
20s I I can go out and have fun I can
waste some time I can have this
adventure but I'm learning from it and
it's helping me grow and I know that I
have a sense of direction so you know if
you want to be um be a great basketball
player or a chess master in the
beginning it's tedious it's boring it's
hell you're frustrated 5 years down the
line it's kind of getting easier and
better 10 years down the line you're
able to shoot 60% on three-point shots
you become a a Grandmaster or whatever
the step below that is you're having fun
it's exciting so following this path is
actually the most thrilling thing you
can be on because you're not going to do
it if you think it's all drudgery and
pain and I've got to spend so many years
self-sacrificing not being able to no
man you're going to have fun overcoming
challenges getting good at something is
the greatest high you can have if you
want to be an
entrepreneur and you're 23 years old and
you go nah I'm not really ready for it I
need to go back to business school okay
no you start your business now and it
fails and it's painful and you go [ __ ] I
don't know then you go I'm going to do
it again because I learned some terrible
lessons and you do it again and it
succeeds and this is like 7 years later
man what a feeling you've overcome
yourself you you've mastered your own
weaknesses you're having fun people are
admiring you you have the attention that
you want women are flocking to you
whatever you want to however you want to
say it it's a high it's great so
mastering something becoming great
figuring out what you want to do is not
painful it's the most fulfilling
decision you can ever make and it
involves some tedium it involves a
couple some years of
frustration but if you can if you can
delay immediate gratification if you can
say it'll come to Something in three or
four years if I'm focused if I'm
energized then you're going to reap the
rewards I guarantee you because that's
how the human brain is structured so I
like to flip the script and make it seem
like something that's incredibly fun and
that's why I wrote Mastery where the
last two
chapters are about being creative and
about the feeling of being a master at
something where you have an intuitive
feel it's like a superpower at that
point and it's an incredibly
intoxicating sensation and I set it up
that way because I wanted you to realize
that this is a goal that you can have
and it's incredibly it'll give your life
a sense of direction so um I just want
you to feel that there's another path
even in these miserable times even with
all the problems there is a path that
will lead to something so different and
it'll turn your life around and and I I
mean I know it's hard to convince people
with words and that's why I wrote that
book but I honestly believe that
powerlessness yeah corrupts more than
power yeah it's a quote of Malcolm X
actually okay tell me more well um so we
all desire a degree of power and control
in life and you have to understand the
word power is not just like about
politics or about Elon Musk or anything
I'm talking about in our day-to-day Liv
Liv right how we interact with people
the sense that I cannot influence my
boss my colleagues my wife my children
the people around me is deeply deeply
miserable for us right it makes us feel
powerless and when we're powerless we
either we turn in on ourselves we end up
hating ourselves and we get depressed or
we become passive aggressive and we
start manipulating other people in way
ways in which we can justify to
ourselves as oh no I'm not really doing
that I'm actually a good person but it's
actually can be very very harmful so you
have to admit that you want a degree of
power you want the the ability to
influence people and you're not going to
be hypocritical you're going to be
honest with yourself you know niceness
is okay is a good quality if it's under
control if you understand it and if you
use it and you know how to use it
strategically and it's maybe it's a part
of your personality it's authentic but
it doesn't govern you you are in control
of it and what happens is if you're the
pleasing
type which is your whole strategy in
life is pleasing other people getting
them to like you which is you know a
quality that a lot of people have men
and women right it doesn't come from a
place of security it comes from a place
of deep deep insecurity you're not you
don't understand really who you are and
so you can't control it and so so you're
always trying to please people and when
we can sense we can smell people's
insecurities and when it comes to like
seduction with between men and women
women have a sick sense of they can
smell an insecure man right and you can
they can smell it in you they can smell
it in all kinds of ways and trying so
hard to please and trying so hard to be
nice secretly indicates that you're
actually very weak inside and it's very
much a turnup is very anti- seductive
and
so you want to be nice but you want to
be strategic about it you want to know
sometimes I don't want to be nice
sometimes I want to show create
boundaries sometimes I want to pull back
I want to play the coet I want the woman
to know she does she can't take me for
granted right I'm not interested in her
the moment you show her that you're not
interested in her she's going to be much
more interested in you you're willing to
play a little bit that tough part of it
you're in control you're strategic you
know when to use absence and when to use
presence when to to text them and call
them and when to disappear for a c a
week or so and make them feel like they
don't you know they they can't take you
for granted so know when to be nice and
you can use it to to effect but you also
know when I don't want to be nice in
this world and that pertains to all sort
of situations and negotiation Etc if
you're always so nice in business you're
you're going to be a doom you're not
going to survive very long I come at
this from a evolutionary perspective and
so the reason because I was so bad with
women for so long and then figured out
how to quote unquote play the game and
it worked literally on a dime from what
literally from one day to the next I
could not be successful with women to I
felt like within my sexual market value
let me not oversell this but within my
sexual market value I could be
successful sort of when I wanted to be
and it it was so it was such a set of
rules that I was following that I
actually had to laugh out loud I was
like I cannot believe it took me this
long to just figure out that oh I have
to present myself a certain way that uh
you don't want to go for the cloth right
away that you really this is about um a
strategic revealing of your personality
it's about understanding what's going to
get them exciting you might hate this
description but it's marketing once you
understand that you're a brand you have
to establish what your brand means you
have to make them feel some kind a way
about you the way that you're
establishing your brand better be real
and one of the things I'm sure we'll
talk about today is I take all of this I
I've been married to the same woman for
21 years we've been together for 23 to
me that we had to seduce each other in
the beginning and then at some point
that becomes a a deep long-term pair
bond which is a totally different game
and I really hope everybody can get good
at both games because that's really how
you end up having an amazing love life
that will ride with you through the ups
and downs but seduction is real people
need to stop pretending that it's not
from my perspective this is based on
Evolution that women and it's
interesting because I think you pushed
back a little bit on looking at the
30,000 foot view of men and women I'll
make a case for it if you hate it tell
me you hate it but here's my case
there's a quote I forget who it's by
forgive me whoever said this this is a
paraphrase any individual woman is a
mystery but taken as a whole they're a
mathematical certainty was technically
said about men but you get the idea and
that makes sense to me and so I you're
right like ultimately I had to figure
out my wife I didn't just have to figure
out women as a general thing I had to
figure out my wife but every time I
think of my wife as thinking like me I
can't predict her behavior the second I
lump her in the mathematical certainty
of women are like this then I'm way
closer to being able to predict her
behaviors and so I think it's very
important understand the distinction
between how men think and how women
think what we fantasize about how we
approach sex what we think of as
seductive but you're not going to get
that from a book so you can read all of
the facts about this is how women think
etc etc the best way to do that is by
observing them so if you pay attention
to the person that you're trying to if
you P if you start paying attention to
women as young ear at the earliest
possible age you will see these
qualities in them you will see the fact
that they are interested more in stories
that they want that they don't want to
be feel like it's just about sex and
you're in a hurry to get them to that
point these aren't great Mysteries that
you need to read from a book it's pretty
clear if you pay attention right so I
just want to get men out of the M
because we are so goddamn analytical
it's such a problem that reading a book
reading a text having algorithms is the
only way we can think get the [ __ ] out
of there and pay attention to the person
develop your your mirror neurons develop
your observational skills develop the
human part of you that observes that
feels what the other person is feeling
if you depend so much on things that
you've learned from The Art of Seduction
or from a book it's going to make you a
bad Seducer but to the degree that you
can click into those human qualities
that we all possess where you sense the
emotional tone of the other person you
sense what their vulnerable
vulnerabilities you sense what they're
missing in life yes maybe 60% of women
are missing a similar thing that there
are patterns to and maybe reading about
it can kind of click that into you okay
fine I'm not going to say that that's
all bad but the main thing you want is
to be getting out of your head and into
your emotions and into observing and
into feeling what the other person is
feeling and not being so head oriented
not being so analytical you know that I
think is the main problem that a lot of
men face it's really interesting
my experience was I needed to understand
it analytically because I didn't have
the intuition for it and it may be that
I just didn't look I don't believe
people are born with intuition I think
that it develops over time so for
whatever weird reason the intuition I
developed was that if I wrote poetry and
showed up with flowers on the first date
which I actually did multiple times uh
that that would get me somewhere and it
did not get me anywhere I was actually
once this is where you ask any kids
listen in the car to you turn the radio
down whatever uh but this is a true
story I was in bed with a woman we were
getting naked we were rounding third
base and I managed to mess that up
because I displayed what I will call uh
at a moment where I should have been
confident and uh masculine you might
hate that word but um I displayed what I
will now God I don't even like saying
this out loud but it's true uh I
displayed a more feminine trait and was
like let's not go any farther unless
this means something which isn't what I
was feeling those exact words which
isn't what I was feeling it was what I
thought she wanted to hear and it was
not and it put the breakes on the whole
situation well it's very easy to explain
why that would happen because that makes
her think that oh maybe he's not so into
it maybe I'm not that attractive women
secretly want to feel that you desire
them that you're that she is so
attractive that you're going to lose
control and you didn't lose control in
that moment and you blew it you [ __ ]
it up so it's very obvious why that
didn't work yeah obvious to you now
where were you back then Robert Green uh
because I still want to punch myself in
the mouth for that entire evening so
yeah lesson learn we've all made
mistakes like that though yeah I'm going
to guess that that one's pretty bad uh
so what I had to really begin to
understand was what women actually were
going to respond to and not the Terrible
assumptions that I had built up in my
mind yeah and what I began to realize is
that um there are things that women want
that don't they are not the same as what
I want and so when I started realizing
okay making that person my like what you
just said you're losing control making
and that's where I think you get like
the billionaire archetype of okay this
is somebody that has everything that is
normally this you actually talk about
this in your book you say normally men
get completely lost and what I think you
refer to as masculine Pursuits how often
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code and so I read that to mean hyper
pursuit in business being myopically
focused on something working yourself to
death which certainly resonates with the
life my wife is living right now where I
I work an obscene amount now if you ask
my wife what does she want she'll say
quality time which is another way of
saying I want this person who's made a
ton of money who's at the top of the
business Heap I want him to stop all of
that because I'm so irresistible that
he's only going to pay attention to me
and the way that makes her feel when I'm
just completely focused on her I'm not
touching my phone I'm not my mind isn't
wandering I am locked in on her I'm
making her feel physically attractive
I'm making her feel the truth which is
she is my mental equal like all of that
that she's a woman I have to contend
with that she's captured my imagination
that she has taken this wild stallion as
evidenced in and I don't mean stallan
Studley I just mean this unbroken cult
that is you know off running in the
world of business she's gotten a saddle
on me slowed me down got me to pay
attention to her I mean this is the
Beauty and the Beast mythology where she
is so special that she has been able to
capture the attention of the person who
who never had their attention captured
before now I've never thought about this
before I've only ever told my wife uh
that I love you I've never told that to
another woman because I was never in
love before so for my wife it really was
the um what in literary circles they
call in erotic literary circles they
called the magic hoo-ha so for my wife
she was the only one that was able to
break me out of that she's the only
person that's ever gotten me to slow
down in my ambition to pay attention to
her and once I could see it from not
just my wife's perspective but the
general that's what women are looking
for perspective and I was like oh wow
like I really get now why she wants my
attention that that isn't something I
should be frustrated by that yeah this
is even now 23 years in it's a seductive
tool that I can play which is you've
completely capture my attention like if
I see my wife and she's looking good I'm
going to stop whatever I'm doing and
tell her and make sure she knows and
feels it viscerally and all of that
required me to understand just the
psychology of the whole situation mhm I
have no problem with that is it
something that I seem to have disagreed
with no not at all that's just me um
appealing to the nice guys out there of
I get you either may it may be
insecurity which mine was certainly
driven by that or you may think it's a
winning strategy I get that but it isn't
well one thing that I think is very
seductive that I can point out here and
it has a little bit to do with what
you're saying is what I call
generosity generosity is is a very
powerful seductive quality it doesn't
mean money as as you might necessarily
assume it can mean money but it means
that you're generous with your attention
you're generous with with what you're G
giving to the other person right so you
know the main thing for a man who's we
tend to be very linear focused mono
focused on this one thing and there's an
evolutionary reason for that for tens of
thousands of years hunting we had to
just focus on one thing women were
focusing on many different things at the
same time you know they're they're they
could multitask we can't um so getting
out of that mono rail that you're in
with your attention and being able to
give to the other person and give them
attention and in the initial phases sh
them with the attention that they're not
getting from other people although you
can go a little too far with that so you
sometimes you have to step back and kind
of be absent for a little bit so they
they don't feel like it's you're not
like a stalk you're not like it doesn't
come from an insecure place you're in
control of it but the sense of being
generous with your personality with the
time with the attention you get is
incredibly credibly seductive the sense
that you're not generous and stingy with
money
you like take them to a cheap restaurant
you ask them to pay you're kind of you
know you that's a sign that you're not
generous in general so uh maybe that's
part of the the billionaire appeal where
you assume that that person's going to
be very generous at least with their
money so the sense of being closed
inside yourself and stingy and not
wanting to give to the other person give
of your time your attention your money
all these other things that is deeply
deeply anti
seductive what do you do you think that
we're living in a time right now that is
complicated in a negative way by um
changing gender
Norms I don't know if I want to get into
that that Hornet's Nest but um you know
in seduction I I I make it clear and I
made it clear in my human nature book
that we're a mix of qualities that
nobody is complet completely masculine
and no woman is completely feminine men
have feminine qualities women have
masculine qualities some men have more
feminine qualities than masculine some
women V we're a mix it's a chemical
thing and there's no way to predict that
right and it's always been that way but
um there's ways that kind of element of
androgyny for instance can be very very
seductive and very powerful if you know
how to use it right so I'm not going to
say that um that's overly complicating
things in fact the sense of kind of
crossing boundaries with gender is
actually a sign of some of the periods
in history where thing where things were
the most open to seduction so for
centuries women could not seduce men and
I you I can I can delineate that period
I mean going through all throughout
ancient history and I talk about it my
new book because to be interested in a
woman so much that you wanted to give
them attention and time meant that you
were feminine right and men were
masculine they were warriors etc etc
they weren't interested in the inner
worlds of women women were there to
clean the house and to make babies
essentially so seduction was not
something that really existed in the
ancient world except with some
exceptions like Cleopatra Etc so the
idea that you're interested in a woman
and in her world is already admitting
there's a feminine element within you
and so I look at moments in history and
I just wrote about this like in the
Middle Ages where our whole notion of
Love Came From at least the Western
notion or you look in the 18th century
the grand epic of of Seduction with
Casanova and all those characters you
look at the 1920s in America and in
Europe a period of incredible Sexual
Energy freedom and seduction these were
periods where there was a lot of
androgyny going on so I don't
necessarily think that that's something
that's going to limit the the seductive
qualities and the energy that's in the
atmosphere I think what's hindering us
is not the gender Norms it's more our
kind of defensiveness our closed Spirit
our desire to be completely in control
of of our circumstances by by
withdrawing into our egos and being
afraid of of being hurt being afraid of
being wrong being afraid of of not being
strong etc etc I think that has more
more an inhibiting Factor on on
seduction in the world why do you think
young people are having so much less sex
right
now well for men a lot of it has to do
with
porn I mean I'm not sure I'm not a
scientist I'm not a sociologist but that
would be my
estimation where first of all they're
having a lot of sex virtually and second
of all they IDE a of sex and what is
pleasurable what a what a woman should
be like comes from those ideals in
pornography and the look etc etc and so
it's not as much of a need for them Etc
to to kind of physically we become much
more virtual in how we get pleasure in
life um also I think there's an element
of fear as I said I mean young people
have grown up in these in these periods
of massive uh economic in stability
they've had to deal with the' 08
collapse with the pandemic and
everything that's happened there so
they've had to deal with circumstances
that are very powerful and that are
going to make them anxious as well as
all of the helicopter parenting that
many of them had to to live through so
they're filled with much more anxiety
right now than I think in my generation
and that anxiety makes you want to kind
of retreat into your own inner world and
having sex
at least for a man and you can probably
relate to this it's a feeling of you're
almost like it's almost like too much
you're almost like weak afterwards
you're almost like afraid of it you're
afraid of the power that a woman has
over you right you obviously get over
that very quickly and you deal with it
but there's an element of fear involved
and especially when you're in adolescent
especially when it's when you're younger
and so I think the levels of fear and
anxiety that young people are having in
the world and rightly so I don't condemn
that for that is probably why there's
less physical ex sexual and
psychological interactions with members
of the opposite
sex yeah I think it's inevitably going
to be a very complicated issue and like
you I'm not a scientist but um I am
always willing to talk about things that
I know nothing about just to walk people
through how I think about a problem uh
so looking at it I think that a big part
of the problem is what you're talking
about with insecurity I think that the
way the world is set up right now
whether it's um pornography whether it
is uh a society that's really spent the
last several decades telling men that
they their masculine impulses are bad
and for better or worse I think that
sexuality male sexuality is tied up in
power and I think sex itself is uh
dances around power dynamics it's one of
the the main things in female erotica is
power dynamics and it man you want to
dive into a hornet's nest like power
dynamics people get real weird about
this subject um but with all of that if
men are either because the economy is
weird and they're not able to get on the
property ladder and they've got you know
$180,000 in debt and they don't feel
like they're going anywhere and they're
lost in a sense of hopelessness they
have easy access to pornography
um they're just not feeling powerful and
if they're not feeling powerful then
they're going to uh struggle to feel
confident in the bedroom and I mean just
to really put it all out there um I
think a guy has to feel confident and
Powerful not in a weird like I'm a
dominant way but strong and confident
rooted in his body and feeling good
about himself to get and maintain an
erection like you're not going to see a
lot of people who are insecure scared uh
sporting erections those are sort of
flip sides take a lot of viagara or
something I guess but do you really
think like I would be surprised it just
that puts you in and also just bodies
right so diet nutrition hour so horrible
that I have to imagine a lot of people
are just physically not in a place where
they're feeling good about themselves uh
you wrap that all up and you get to what
I'm is the tip of a very large iceberg
that I've grossly oversimplified but no
no no I think you you touched upon a
point that's very valid I and I didn't
touch upon I think it's very true is
that um it's it's not a good time to be
a man right now it's very confusing you
know our role models are very mixed up
we don't really know what is a positive
virtue for a man we think that we look
at somebody like Andrew Tate as possibly
an icon a lot at least a lot of young
people do which I don't at all I think
that's I think it's really gross and
vulgar and full of all kinds of
insecurities a man like that a kind of
an icon sort of a sense of strength from
either a political figure a leader or an
actor or anything that used to be in the
culture we don't really have that and
men are are seen as something kind of
ugly in our culture you know it seems
like ugly energy that comes from men and
every time I read the newspaper I I see
that kind of that kind of slant on
things that anytime a man is sort of
revealing a kind of atavistic trait of
being kind of dominant and strong ill
ugly oh he's you know he's awful he's
he's primitive he's not you know etc etc
and so it's very very confusing and I
remember being a young man
myself growing up I'm such an old person
that I can remember like the late 60s
you know and it was kind of confusing
then and I was struggling and I had a
good role model with my father father he
was very he was very gentle but he was
also quite masculine Etc and I remember
being confused about it and kind of
straining and trying to find a proper
masculine role model and it was a
struggle and and I found it sometimes
with my teachers my professors in school
and other people I later gravitated to
but the sense of this is what it means
to be a man these are good qualities the
quality of being a leader of being
strong of even being kind of dominant
and being able to dominate a group and
dominate a room or to be so powerful
that your voice can carry these are all
positive traits we wouldn't be here
right now Tom Talking you and I if men
didn't have those traits right if they
didn't have the courage to face you know
enemies with Spears etc etc these are
all positive qualities just have to be
channeled in in socially productive ways
which is what an Andrew Tate doesn't do
but if only we could craft a
Frankenstein monster of what an ideal
male figure would be like it would be
very very helpful for young men and I
don't mean to craft it in a fantasy way
it would be great if there were really
people like that you know in this world
today so you know um to me a masculine
quality is a kind of inner strength a
confidence that doesn't need to yell it
doesn't need to scream it doesn't need
to bully people it's just so strong that
people are attracted to it and it
emanates it radiates itself and people
can feel it you know so you don't have
to yell at someone I remember when I was
at on the board of directors of American
Apparel and the CEO um who we ended up
firing he was a good friend of mine he's
brilliant in some things but he could he
was yelling at people left right and
Center he thoughts that's what power is
that's what being masculine is and I
thought it just showed incredible
weakness the ability to set an example
to tell people this is how you should be
by how I'm behaving Etc take taking
responsibility these are that's a
masculine quality not blaming other
people we need to redefine what it means
to be masculine and what are the
positive aspects of it I think is very
very critical for our culture talk to me
about aggression I think men should have
a gear that is aggressive should be a
gear I don't think they should live
there what do you think completely I
mean and you know my wife can attest
this I'm an insanely compe
person right to the degree that it's
almost maybe unhealthy right so like I'm
bicycling up a hill and people pass me
God damn it you can't pass me I'm going
to pass you even though right now I can
because I'm physically weaker I'm still
trying to do that on my stupid recumbent
bike Etc I'm very very competitive and
that competitive energy I think a lot of
men have it's what directs us towards
Sports you know and I'm I'm a Sports
Addict
Etc compet being competitive is aligned
with being
ambitious and getting back to seduction
a man who seems ambitious is very very
seductive and having no ambition is very
unmasculine and very anti- seductive but
we have we see the word ambition as
being kind of ugly as if it's like
egocentric as if it's selfish but Dam
this world was built by people who are
ambitious they created it right you
wouldn't be here you wouldn't have the
internet you wouldn't have all your
little tools that you whine and complain
about if it weren't for people who were
incredibly ambitious ambitious people
have created the world so men have
aggressive energy it's the testosterone
flowing through us right you can't you
can't repress it you can't get rid of it
it's there and how you Channel it is the
key you can become very self-destructive
you can Channel it towards violence you
can Channel it towards pushing people
around or you could say
I'm going to I'm going to channnel it
towards being competitive to towards
being the best person at what I'm doing
we talked I think last time I was here
when I talk about the human nature we
talked about Kobe Bryant a man who had a
dark side he is so competitive to the
degree would could have killed him it
was just awful and he acknowledges it he
channeled it into the basketball court
and it made him Fant made him the one of
the greatest players ever it's how you
take that energy that testosterone that
aggression and what you do with it
that's the critical factor and that's
where I think a lot of men are confused
about it for the people out there who
believe that their life is
boring and that they're wasting it what
trap have they fallen into and what
advice do you have for them to get out
of that
sense well you were talking to me about
we were talking earlier about diet and
problems with your health and you're
saying get at the root
cause so you have to get at the root
cause of your boredom and most often and
you're looking at it superficially
you're thinking I just don't have enough
stimulation in my life I need to travel
more I need to get rid of my girlfriend
or boyfriend and find a new relationship
my career is bothering me I need to
change jobs that's the superficial way
of dealing with the problem it's deeper
you have to look at yourself and you
have to see the possible root causes of
what is making you bored a lot of it is
the fact that you are looking for
external stimulation whereas looking
Inward and seeing who you are and what
drives you and what your motivations are
what makes you different you were
talking about diet and how all the
intricacies and how each person responds
to Foods differently and it's very
inexact science well you are an
individual and you have your own little
weirdness and everything about you is
different and you have all these little
grains inside of you that react
differently to things you don't know who
you are you're alienated from yourself
you're alienated from your nature you're
finding career paths that don't suit you
just like I might be eating things that
don't suit me I'm sorry to keep going
back to that no right you're getting in
you're involved with people that don't
suit you you don't know who you are you
don't know your core your essence you
don't know what ex really excites you
what Abraham maslo calls impulse voices
you have these little voices inside of
you that are saying I like this I love
this this is what excites me you're not
listening to them that's drowned out by
social media by your parents by
everybody else so you don't know who you
are and because of that you choose
things that aren't right for you and
when you choose things that aren't right
for you you're not engaged emotionally
and when you're not engaged emotionally
you get bored and you get restless and
you reach for got to travel to Bali got
to start playing the guitar I got to
quit my job I've got to go find a new
you know a model to start dating or
whatever you don't and it doesn't it
ends up like you do it and for a week or
two it's exciting and then it doesn't
lead any to anything lasting and then
you you're bored and you're restless and
you go on to the next thing it's exactly
what I'm writing about right now in my
book on the supply I'm just quoting the
chapter I just wrote I love that I
actually didn't I mean I know that
you're writing about the sublime I had
no idea that it was about that
specifically I know how could you so
true and in fact I I want the the
viewers to hear that I am desperate for
your next book to come out I really do
think of you as a legend man rereading
the daily laws and prep for this I am
freaked out by how accurately you get a
certain aspect of the Human Condition so
with that in mind is it that people
don't have the balls to look at who they
really are is it just that things are
getting drowned out and they don't know
how to create the silence like why is it
so hard for people to understand
themselves well it's hard and our
default position is to take the path of
least resistance about what is easy you
know so right now um and I should hardly
talk but PE people are extremely
interested in drugs right in like
psychoactive drugs mushrooms that trust
me I did a lot of that in my 20s I have
nothing against it right but you have
the capacity in you to be continually
high on life to almost have a drug-like
effect we have these remark remble
senses our ability to pick up colors etc
etc you could be continually tripping
you don't need drugs your brain is wired
for this kind of this kind of
interaction with life that doesn't feel
true to me so how do we tap into that
what am I well because it takes effort
whereas popping a pill whereas just
doing the easy thing whereas looking at
yourself and introspecting requires
effort and it requires pain right
because when I look at myself as I do
with my meditation every
morning God Robert you've got a lot of
problems man why do these thoughts keep
popping up you think you're so great but
you're not so great your your mind is
veering towards these Petty issues let's
work on this right so my meditation this
morning this very morning I was thinking
my problem Robert is you don't let go
you've got to let go and I just kept
repeating myself let go let go let go
every time a thought came in I was like
all right let go of it okay but it
painful because you realize what your
what Your blocks are what your
limitations are what you're doing wrong
we don't want to face ourselves it's so
much easier to look externally to look
out in the world to find a guru or a
coach who will help you to find a book
that will help you to find a drug that
will help you to find some kind of to go
on online porn you know anything as
opposed to looking Inward and seeing who
you really
are yeah so looking Inward and seeing
who you are is definitely heavy it's
definitely hard it is also I would say
the thing that leads most assuredly to
success now the reason that I say that
is I have found that by acknowledging my
own pettiness is my insecurities all of
that I can better understand other
people when I can better understand
other people I can better navigate the
world yeah so the method that I use to
figure that out is when I feel something
uncomfortable
I one I distrust my emotions so I don't
just think oh I have an emotion I should
enact it I'm like M that may have a a
dark underbelly I want understand I uh
my wife and I were arguing and she says
something that just makes me so pissed
off and I'm like what the [ __ ] how dare
you like I cannot believe that you would
say whatever it is that she said and
what I learned early in our marriage was
anytime time I had that impulse she had
tripped an insecurity of mine right but
if I didn't know that I was insecure
about it I would get the surface level
em motion it felt so real it just felt
like she had said something she
shouldn't say and I would never take the
time to figure out why shouldn't she say
that and so the emotion gave me
righteous indignation I would push back
on hey why' you say that and never get
into oh I see I'm super insecure about
this thing which is what's triggering
the emotion so it's what she and I call
arguing about the tea so you're at the
surface level going back to your early
point you stop at the the part that's
easy to identify I am angry because I am
angry then I just do what the anger
tells me to do which is push back shut
her down get her to take it back
whatever rather than go whoa like why
does that bother me so much but in
understanding why it bothers me then I'm
like okay now I see this is an
insecurity so when I see somebody get
angry at me I'm like oh [ __ ] they're
insecure about this that's interesting
and so now let's drill into and why are
you insecure I mean look there are
certain conversations where you're never
going to ask that but it's it gives a
lot more clarity which is why I ask like
I think it's that the reason people
don't identify what's really going on
inside of them is twofold
one it takes a certain level of
understanding about the human animal
just generically about the way emotions
come about Etc ET and then testicular
fortitude to look at something and say
oh man I'm not as cool as I wish I were
yeah right so how do we get beyond
that well um you know you don't have to
read books about human nature or or or
make it a study just look at yourself
and you'll find out all that you need to
know right you'll know that you have the
flaws that you naturally think you see
in other people so I always find when
people are particularly angry about some
character trait in me or others they're
actually more often than not projecting
unconsciously they have the same trait
so God damn it that person's a
narcissist well you're not that's your
way of kind of hiding from yourself your
own
narcissism so by looking at yourself
you're inevitably going to see your
flaws and your limitations which was the
whole subject of the laws of human
nature we have these negative qualities
built into the way are we evolved as
human beings right we evolved a million
years ago under circumstances that are
completely different now that don't have
any relationship that aren't functional
to the high-tech worlds that we live in
and so we have a lot of qualities that
that constantly create problems for
ourselves okay you think that it's other
people that have these problems you
think other people people are aggressive
other people are passive aggressive
other people are self-absorbed no you
have all of these traits as well okay so
it's painful right and if you know one
thing about human beings if there could
be one law about human behavior and it's
true I suppose of every animal we avoid
anything painful and we Veer to what
it's pleasurable or easy okay so how do
you overcome that that's your
million-dollar question that you're
asking sometimes you have to hit rock
bottom sometimes you have to go nothing
is working in my life I'm miserable I'm
depressed my career isn't going in the
right way okay maybe I'm the source of
it and when you hit rock bottom you're
willing to take anything the pain of
looking at yourself isn't maybe as bad
as the hole that you've dug yourself
into okay the other way is you don't
necessarily have to hit rock bottom but
you are really motivated to change your
life right you you're Ambi ious you want
to be successful you want to have some
degree of power we're a social animal
you want to get along with people you
want to know how to navigate these
complicated social environments that we
inhabit right and so it's not working
for me right now I'm getting in my own
way okay so I have to step back and I
have to look at myself and I have to
study who I am and I have to do some
heavy work on myself now nobody says
that's easy if it were easy everybody
would be doing it and we'd be living in
Paradise but we obviously don't right do
you think it's a an intellectual level
that people have to be at in order to do
that or is there a process that people
can run to figure this out I'm a big
believer that intellect is vastly
overrated that we are emotional animals
the problem is emotional I hate to keep
saying it but I'm about to be giving a
talk in a few weeks and this is exactly
what I'm giving my talk about which
which is you have to change your
orientation right your problem is
emotional not intellectual our first U
when we're having a problem our first
because what I'm I'm I'm giving a talk
about is how to deal with change in the
world whenever we think that we we don't
understand something or we're having a
problem we think that knowledge is the
answer we have to accumulate more
knowledge it's intellectual we have to
know more data we have to read studies
we have to understand these things
better the problem is emotional the
reason you can't deal with change or
you're not looking at yourself is you
have emotional blocks you're full of
fear and we're turning away from the
emotion is it that we're turning away
from the emotion that causes the problem
like why is being
emotional stalling people out it's not
being emotional that's stalling people
out it's the kind of emotions that you
that are kind of blocking you so there
are emotions that are very positive like
confidence like boldness like
fearlessness like openness to experience
adventurousness these are all brilliant
expansive emotions I contrast expansive
emotions with constricting emotions ego
pettiness fear impatience that Clos you
down and narrow the scope of what you're
willing to try out okay so fear I
compare it to a tree fear is the root of
all of this and the branches we find
impatience we find ego you know we find
is all of this The Human Condition or
the fear of change or the inability to
change well you know we are anxious
creatures by Nature it's kind of built
into our system as well and so we're
kind of primed to feel fear Etc but
these things are subtle so you're not
aware that fear is the source of your
problems right
because you're not attuned to who you
are you think that it's um because I
don't know enough about the world or
other people are blocking me or I wasn't
I didn't get good enough education blah
blah blah blah blah right it's hard to
see the effects of fear because it's
very subtle it's going to block you in
ways that you're never really aware it's
like this kind of poisonous gas that you
can't see and it's seeping into you so
getting back to what I'm talking about
how you deal with change which is an
incredibly important issue particularly
in the world now that's changing so
quickly right you have to be able to be
open to what's happening in the present
Mo moment with people with events etc
etc but because of fear you're slipping
further and further behind you're lit
locked in the past you think that ideas
that you had um are are exactly what's
happening you're not paying attention to
the things that are around you because
pay attention is hard and it's difficult
and it means letting go of some of your
most cherished ideas about the world and
just being open to experience so with
people for instance let's say I'm
working with you Tom right and we've
been working together for a year or so I
have a certain impression of you right
probably from our first
interactions and that impression kind of
freezes in my mind mind and as I'm
dealing with you I'm always sort of
seeing this kind of image that I have of
you and I'm not paying attention to who
you are in the moment how you are
changing how things are adapting maybe
my first impression was wrong maybe
you're actually quite different but that
takes some courage that takes some
effort to be alive in the moment to say
I don't know I don't know Tom Bila I
don't really know who he is I don't know
what motivates his behavior I need to
pay attention
but the idea that I know the answer
actually stems from
Fear So In This Moment of radical
change so I I think there's two things
at play I'd be very interested to see
what you think of this so I think we're
living through a very um weird moment as
the the Chinese um proverb I'm not even
sure what to call it but may you live in
interesting times supposedly meant as a
curse I think we're living in
interesting times and I mean that as a
curse and uh when I think about it I
think that a lot of what's playing out
is some change is bad and and I consider
myself hyper malleable it's one of
either my greatest strengths or my
greatest weakness I'm not entirely sure
in fact when you started off by saying
you have a hard time letting go I have
the exact opposite problem uh I find it
very easy to let go of anything
everything my identity all of it like it
to a point where it it may border on not
useful but anyway so you've got we're
living in a time where I don't think all
change is good and then on top of that I
think that when people feel weak no when
people are weak they have a feeling that
ah like things are not going the way
that I want they don't understand that
their fear is coming from weakness and
actual inability to be effective in the
world and because they have the will to
power and the nich way they begin
grabbing on to whatever tool they have
at their disposal and right now the
thing that people are using is shame and
shouting people down effectively and so
mix and this is super complicated with
social media and all that but those two
things and I'm just beginning to like
think through this so thank you for
letting me think out loud but those feel
like the the twin heads of this Dragon
right now what are the twin heads again
some changes bad so some things that are
happening are actually we're going in
the wrong direction and then some of the
um lashing out that people are doing is
because they are weak and they don't
know a positive way to navigate the
world to manifest the will to power in a
way that has to do with personal
responsibility getting better at moving
through the world so instead they use
the easier tools which are shouting
people down which makes them feel
powerful but in reality is fear of their
ideas but they don't know how to get
stronger in their own convictions they
don't know how to be open-minded to
learn and so new ideas scare them some
ideas actually are bad but they feel
weak and so now they're just lashing out
somewhat
blindly yeah of course um some changes
are not good but in in the larger
picture of it change I
believe has an inherently positive
quality to it because the worst thing
that can happen to a culture to a
civilization is to be in these static
moments so let's say we're going through
a moment where the political correctness
where the social justice Warrior is in
the ascendant and I agree with you it's
a negative it's a kind of a negative
change in a way right well first of all
you have to understand these changes so
even if they're negative it's not that
you Embrace everything that's going on
in the world that you understand them on
a on a deep level but let's say that
this is a negative change that is
occurring in the world but it's
occurring for a purpose it's a reaction
against something that occurred earlier
on it's not going to last have a larger
picture of history and of the world
nothing that we humans do lasts very
long and particularly now in this
accelerated moment of change in 10 years
from now the Generation Z and the new
generation coming up they're going to be
so [ __ ] tired pardon my language of
all of the truth virtue signaling and
everything they're going to go in the
opposite direction it's going to swing
back and forth and back and forth and
back and forth right so don't get so
caught up in the moment and think that
this is this is like where we're heading
like a hundred years from now we're all
going to be like these Grand inquisitors
that the social justice movement will
reach this insane end point we've had
these moments before in history where
people get extremely tight and
constricted and upset and uptight and
worried about things and angry and take
taking it out on everybody else we've
been through it so many times before so
have some perspective that it won't last
okay do you worry at all though that
with the historical lenson it also has
killed a lot of people this is the first
time in my life where I'm like uh I have
a feeling that there are going to be
consequences to the way that Society is
going now I couldn't be more open to
realizing that I'm wrong so if you have
an Insight that I missing you mean
people being cancelled and their careers
being red being executed being beheaded
for it uh yes I do mean I don't I'm not
thinking literally of guillotines though
that has been one of the historical ways
that this played out but like I am I am
very aware
of the truth of the statement all that
evil needs is for good men to do nothing
and so it is right now it feels like
division is running just in opposite
directions and as somebody that has uh
who does a lot of time talking on camera
I think a lot about okay how do I how do
I grapple with some of the issues and
then what is the way to sort of present
ideas to people that will hopefully
gently nudge them in a more useful
Direction so I think all about usability
it's why I love your book so much
because you're like if I was going to
boil you down really simplistically I
would say your core message is deal with
the world the way that it is not the way
that you wish it were and that idea is
very powerful to me so looking through
the lens of okay what is useful what is
the way that I can behave that is useful
so you started by saying no thyself I
think that's incredibly useful one it
helps you navigate your own emotions two
it helps you understand other people
okay so that advice is good because it's
incredibly useful then I look at the
world running in opposite directions
algorithms social media exacerbating
that problem the rapidity with which
ideas burn through Society is really
fascinating and
historically humans tend to go so wrong
before they swing back in the other
direction that millions of people do die
with a high and distressing degree of
frequency now do I think that we're
right on the precipice no I think that
we have plenty of time and space to calm
everybody down but I do think for the
first time in my life anyway here in the
US it's worth going hey this can rev up
to the point of being actually dangerous
yeah well I don't I don't disagree with
you but then the question is what do you
do about it I mean you can't change like
whole groups of people in Mass like
people like they used to think in
communist countries where you could
change Human Nature by creating a
different system we know that doesn't
work unless you happen to believe be a
communist and you believe that's
possible so it has to occur on an
individual level right and how do you
change that in a culture where it is
where we're engineered to be angry and
emotional where all of the social media
that people spend 85% of their lives on
I don't know I'm just taking that number
out of my you know what it's way too low
but
yeah okay all right um you know it's
engineered for that right you know just
to give an example something that really
gets under my to show my own outrage
um you know on my on my feed I get these
these notices from next door you know
what next door is right and everything
is about crime and about and I know in
my neighborhood there's some crime but
but if you read next door it's it's like
giv you the sense that there everywhere
like there's murderers next door to you
like rapists are all around you right it
freaks you out the algorithms are there
they choose those posts to put in your
feet that are going to get you emotional
that's just is next door Facebook is a
master of it you know Instagram they all
just use these algorithms to hit your
most basic emotions right how do you
fight that well you have to fight that
on an individual level you have to tell
people you are being manipulated right
and in order to say that you're being
manipulated you're hitting their ego
you're telling them you're not as in
control of yourself as you think you are
and I know this for myself I know that I
am manipulated by these different
algorithms but it means I have to have
that kind of humility to say I am a
person who can be manipulated but most
people go around thinking oh I'm not
manipulated I'm in control of my
thoughts I know what my feelings are I
behave according to what I want to do
[ __ ] you're continually being
manipulated by these various these
various platforms okay you can't change
it as an individual I can't go and get
Mark Zuckerberg to suddenly stop doing
all these dastardly things it's
impossible right so what do you do you
have to try and awaken people one by one
by one that's sort of why I write books
like the laws of human nature to a waken
you up and it's a incredible theme in
that book you might hate it but I hit
that again and again about how we are
being manipulated by social media how
it's playing to our most Basic Instincts
how Envy which is a most powerful human
emotion it defines Us in so many ways
why Envy why Envy well it's just one of
the 18 chapters but why why did I choose
that no why is it so
powerful because it is wired inside of
us our brains work by comparing um
different pieces of information on the
most basic level that's how our brains
our neocortex operate a piece of
information comes up we compare it to
something else our our minds operate
through continual comparisons when you
create a social animal whose survival
depends on getting along with other
people that comparison device is
continually in operation with other
people what do they have that I don't
have why are they getting that attention
that I don't have why are they getting
these these gifts and these rewards and
I don't have any of them it was a
problem that existed in Hunter Gathering
societies if you've ever studied
primitive cultures you come upon a very
strange custom of theirs which is the
moment anyone receives a gift of food or
anything what is the first thing they do
they give it to someone else it's like a
ritual because you're definitely afraid
that if you keep that gift people are
going to have envy and they will murder
you right so it's it's a continual
ritual so it's bread into us even
chimpanzees are known to feel Envy like
if another chimp gets a delicious piece
of grape and the other one has a
cucumber he's like who what the hell
what's going on here that study is
hilarious you can find on YouTube for
anybody watching it's saying yeah so
it's who we are but what do you think
social media is it's an engine of Envy
it's making you continually aware of
what other people have and what you
don't have oh he's vacationing in Bali
oh he's dating a supermodel etc etc look
at my poor pitiful life well that person
who's they're only posting the most
positive things they're not showing
their their kind of unhappy their misery
of their daily life but you're feeling
Envy so how do you overcome that you
have to first be aware that you're
feeling envy that it is motivating you
that you feel this and that means what
we bring you back to looking at yourself
so we can't fight these negative changes
in a global context we have to hit
individual people we have to awaken
their own their Consciousness we have to
make them look Inward and the best thing
I can do is for me personally is to
write books about this I don't know any
other way so we're making them look
Inward and we're we want them to
understand that they're having an
emotional problem not a logic problem
which I think is a really interesting
Insight I think so in business I
realized pretty early on in my career
that the thing that separated me from
other people was I could self soothe so
I was stung by whatever happened whether
it was somebody chastising me or
embarrassing myself or being embarrassed
on purpose by a narcissist or whatever
the situation may be
and it broke most people like it would
derange it would push them underground
would the either they're embarrassing
themselves being chastised somebody
going out of their way to embarrass them
all the power games that you talk about
and and you and you were able to to
soothe yourself and I could soothe
myself it still hurt I still went
through the same emotion but I was so
obsessed with my goals that I would just
ask
myself what is going to move me forward
well that's an that's an amazing um
example of the process that we're
talking about and the power behind it I
couldn't have chosen anything better in
fact I don't think I could do anything
better than what you do because I try
and do what you're talking about and I
don't even know if I've quite reached
that level but that's exactly what the
point I'm trying to make and that you
are illustrating here that when you look
at yourself when you look at what really
is driving your behavior and let's first
admit that we really don't know who we
are and that there's a core that we will
never understand right we can't really
see completely inor ourselves we can't
really totally understand what motivates
our Behavior there's an element I'm a
big believer in humility may not believe
it because I write these books that
don't seem humble at all but the
humility to say there are parts of me
that I'm never going to understand okay
that's good that's all right that's a
powerful thing because the idea that you
know yourself so completely and I've
gone through this process and I know who
I am and I've got these problems it's
[ __ ] you don't know who you are
there's always a core that you'll never
ever understand and that's a beautiful
thing in life because it means Mysteries
are great they're fantastic it means you
have more work to do but all we're
talking about is increasing that margin
of knowledge so let's say in the end
just to pick another number out of my
you know what 70% of ourselves we're
never going to know right for most
people it's 95% or 98 or 99 if you can
lower that number a little bit if you
can have a deeper understanding if you
can understand that what you're doing is
that it's all about your ego that you
really want to be right and not about
getting ahead or having success or power
if you can learn these little things the
world opens up for you because what
power is really about in life people
always ask me for definitions is it's
about having more options okay so when
you're so narrowed down inside yourself
about you know you have the right answer
you know that you know you're can argue
with people and everyone else is wrong
etc etc you're you're limiting what you
can do in life you can only take path A
or B because that's what you're Geared
for that's what's going to soothe your
ego that's what's going to make you feel
better as you thought when you're trying
to shout to get the right Echo okay but
when you let go when you're open to the
fact that you don't know who you are
that there are other things that could
be going on and then you figure out that
ego is tripping me up Suddenly doors
open I can do c I can do d i can do E I
can do what you just said where I can
stop I can learn more I can shut my own
head the voice in my head and I can pay
attention I can learn the world starts
opening up you start having options you
have maneuverability you can do
different things in life things open up
for you that's all I'm ever asking for
people is to get out of these kind of
narrow Corners that they back themselves
into a lot of people are feeling
hopeless right now and they are
gravitating towards alcohol porn Netflix
Etc but nobody is coming to save them if
they want to get out of that hole
they're going to have to do it
themselves so what is it that people can
do and quite honestly avoid doing if
they want to stop being aimless and make
their dreams a
reality well um sometimes you have to
get deep enough in that hole that you
really really want to get out so the key
factor in life is motivation is desire
is the energy that you bring to it so if
you don't believe in yourself if you
only half-heartedly are reading my books
or listening to Tom or listening to me
and you go yeah I kind of want to change
it won't matter it won't change anything
you'll just go back to your old habits
right because habits are very powerful
you're a product of the cultural moment
it's very hard to resist it it's very
hard to swim against the tide of the
times that we live in so if you don't
have the motivation if you don't have
the energy if you don't have the idea
that damn it I'm going down fast if I
don't turn this around I'm you know
you're only alive once it's you know
YOLO and um it goes past really fast I
can tell you that is now as I get older
faster than you think so you've got to
be desperate you've got to tell yourself
I've got to get out of this I've got to
change my life I've got to swim against
the tide of the times that I live in I
have to change my ways because if not
when I'm 32 when I'm
35 all of my hopes all of my horizons
will narrow so much that it it's going
to look very very Bleak right so the
younger you are the better and you have
to have that desire you have to look
yourself Square in the eye and the
number one thing to think of is you have
much less time than you imagine right it
goes B past really quickly your 20s will
go past faster than you could imagine
suddenly you're 30 you go whoa what am I
going to do then you're 40 [ __ ] it's too
late you know okay so just realize you
don't have as much time as you think you
have now the other thing you have to
realize
is um what builds strength what builds
character is
resistance right so if you're trying to
make your body physically stronger you
need resistance you need weights because
weights are are natural resistance you
need to swim water is resistant you need
to run you know gravity is resistant Etc
that resistance builds muscle builds
strength builds aerobic power etc etc
life mentally it's the same thing the
times that you live in are providing
incredible amounts of resistance towards
success towards power towards a sense of
fulfillment they are flooding your face
with all kinds of qualities that you
have to resist and to the degree that
you're aware of these qualities and to
the degree that you resist them you will
build inner strength you will build the
kind of life skills that are necessary
to survive and a and thrive in a very
very tough world so one of these
resistance factors is social media is
the level of distractions that we're all
facing right there never ever ever been
so
intense and you have to
realize you don't let everything into
your body you don't eat all this sugar I
hope at least you don't eat all the
pizza that you think is great for you
you understand that you have to limit
your diet to be healthy particularly as
you get older you have to limit your
sugar intake among other things Etc okay
you have to limit the amount of stuff
that's coming into your head you have to
put your head on a diet you have to go I
can't be distracted I can't absorb all
of this information the human brain we
can only retain so much in our
short-term memory let alone our
long-term memory you're flooding it with
too much and what happens is you're
losing the ability to focus on simple
things right so to be successful you
have to have primarily the quality to
focus to concentrate and that begins on
small banal tasks like I mean this is
this is you know a simple example but if
you're playing the piano or you're want
to be a Chessmaster you have to learn
the basics you have to learn the moves
the different games you can play you
have to learn how to do scales etc etc
you have to be very focused and
attentive to it so if you're trying to
learn scales and learn how to play the
piano and your mind is in 20 different
places you'll never Master it you have
to develop the ability to concentrate to
focus and the times that you are living
in are making it increasingly so
difficult for you that it's splintering
your brain and your attention into a
thousand different pieces to the point
where you can't even focus on your body
on yourself on who you are what makes
you strong so you got to put your brain
on a diet and that means you got to
limit how much social media you let into
your life you have to limit how many
different sources you're listening to
you can't be listening to a hundred
different podcasts every week although
you should be listening to Tom's podcast
right so put yourself on a diet and say
what is it that matters what is
important and then that brings you to
the second question which is tied to the
first one which is by far the most
important step in your life with all of
these things coming at you that are
creating resistance that are going to
make it hard for you which is who are
you what makes you unique what makes
what were you born to achieve in this
world you have to be aware of that and
to be aware of that you have to be able
to focus you have to have
introspect introspection is a is a skill
it's not given to you the ability to
tune out things and to look at yourself
and go in W and go this is what matters
to me this is what I hate I realized
early on I've said this before I hate
politicking I hate office politics I
hate working for other people they annoy
me I I feel like I can do a better job
than they can so I hate that therefore
Robert you need to be an entrepreneur
you're not meant in this life to be
working for other people so you have to
be attuned to yourself you have to look
in and go this is what I hate this is
what I love and you have to be honest
because you can fool yourself you can
think that you
love rock music and that you're meant to
be a rock star but it's only that's
because of the culture that you're
living in what your friends think is
cool that isn't necessarily who you are
you have to look at yourself you have to
focus deep you have to go through a
process being honest and going what
excites me what do I feel like makes me
unique and what the the the power that
you have in life is minding that you
uniqueness minding that individual
quality in whatever field you go into
even in business or being an
entrepreneur and so you can't have that
self-awareness if you can't focus if you
can't concentrate if you can't be bored
and take a notebook and start writing
things out about your childhood about
who you are about what you love and what
you hate if you can't do that I'm sorry
but there's there's no hope for you
there's really no hope for you so you
have to be able to put yourself on that
information diet and go into that
introspective
process that that's really heavy and I
think a lot of people are going to
they're going to hear that there's no
hope for them that's going to feel right
and before you and I started rolling you
said um things really are bad for them
and if I grew up in their generation I
would probably be in the same
boat why why is it bad right now what
what is it that's creating this sense of
hopelessness well we live in a very
nihilistic culture and I find it in our
entertainment you know so the idea of
having a set of principles that guide
you in life man that seems so
oldfashioned that seems so fussy so no
man I'm just going to be who I am you
know and and the the values that are
implanted in in in entertainment are
completely nihilistic they give you no
Focus they give you no Direction They
Don't tell you what actually matters in
life right they give you all of these
faal these Illusions about what life is
about and so some of it stems from the
kind of fractured society that we live
in so fractured in what way
well most cultures up until the 21st
century had a kind of cohesiveness to it
there were certain myths that people
ascribe to that that set the boundaries
this is what unites us all these are the
things that are good good these are the
things that we hate these are the values
that are good these are the values that
are bad now sometimes those cultures
those conventions those myths were not
good but then you had something to rebel
against so me as a product of the 60s
and then in the 70s when I came of age
you know and I'm in
college I didn't like the culture that
was there the kind of monolith the myths
and things I wanted to Rebel but I had
something to rebel against what are you
going to rebel against now you don't
even know what to rebel against now
because there's nothing it's just pure
chaos I can't point my fig finger to
what are the guiding myths of our
particular cultural moment maybe in a
hundred years they'll be clear but I
think a lot of our myths come from
technology you know so my study of
history is every cultural moment has a
kind of guiding metaphor for it
something I'm writing about right now
and so like in the 18th century The
Guiding metaphor was theater life is
like theater we're all actors we're all
playing roles early in the 20th century
it was the unconscious and Freud and
discovering the unconscious and
exploring that which had a huge impact
on culture there were other myths but i'
point to those today it's technology
it's AI it's it's all those other things
right and so but that is like that kind
of devalues the human element so I
recently um gave a a couple of talks
with a conversation with Ryan Holliday
and uh you can look at these on YouTube
it was like an hour and a half here in
LA and in Seattle and Ryan asked me my
thoughts about
Ai and I went on a kind of a rant I'm
not a lite I understand and I use
technology Etc but my point was instead
of fetishizing AI and Chad GPT which I
admit I've seen it it's powerful how it
goes like that whoa It's like magic
fetishize the human brain fetishize
human powers fetishize our sociabilities
our theory of Mind theory of mind is
what makes humans human and what that
means is we have the ability to put
ourselves in the minds of other people
to imagine what they're thinking what
they're doing that's what makes us a
preeminent Social Animal which is the
source of our power what is your power
your power is your ability to be social
is your ability to navigate difficult
social environments your second power is
your brain and all the incredible things
it has one of them is the ability to
focus one is the ability to learn is the
plasticity of the brain so the guiding
metaphor if it's all technology it kind
of makes us think that you know with
your smartphone you have all all of
these powers and you can't believe it it
makes you so impatient everything should
be like my phone everything should be
instant everything should be at my
fingertip if my inet cervice goes down
for a few hours I get so cranky you're
like a little baby whining and crying
right no what really should matter is
not you don't have those Powers you
can't press a button your brain isn't
designed that way it takes years to
develop true skill to be a master at
something you need to go back to these
Elemental Primal human qualities are
sociability so get out of the virtual
realm learn social skills which is what
my book the laws of human nature will
kind of help you and grind you ground
you in as well as the 48 Laws of Power
and you need brain skills you need to
develop skills actual skills that you
can use in this
world man that's really interesting so
the idea of the guiding myths um that's
something that's sort of been in the
back of my mind but I hadn't pulled
forward so thank you for that because
now that you say that I think one of the
biggest issues that I see people
struggling with I would have used
different words but it's the same idea
um people look at the world they look at
the here in the west they look at the
game that we're playing they say
capitalism e this is gross like it's
predatory whatever and because they have
such a Negative view of the system
because the system right now isn't
working for their generation they just
want to opt out but it creates this
incredibly C incredibly aimless
incredibly hopeless Vibe and uh I think
you and I agree that's dangerous now I I
I will say for my own sake I think it's
dangerous for them I think the punchline
of life is all about fulfillment I think
that's what people should be pursuing I
think fulfillment has an
evolutionarily um
imbued formula and that recipe maybe is
a better word is you're going to have to
work really hard to gain a set of skills
that you about for your own intrinsic
reasons that allow you to serve yourself
and others if you do that you're going
to be fine if you don't you're going to
have a profound sense of disease because
people want to check out of the system
they are to your
point ask they're throwing the baby out
with a bathwater so they're trying to
check out of a system which by the way I
think is a phenomenal system and I
advise people not to check out of it but
anyway even if you want to check out of
that system if you then just dive into
uh a any setup that isolates you you're
going to be in for a bad time because we
the brain works in a certain way and so
I've said many times in the show on my
Tombstone I wanted to read you're having
a biological experience and the reason I
want people to understand that is
because your brain works a certain way
there are certain things you can do that
will align yourself to Feeling Good
Feeling engaged feeling fulfilled loving
communication connection meaning and
purpose all that and there are things
that you can do that will lead you
exactly away from this and so uh
rejecting the system but without a cause
so Rebel Without a Cause
style is not going to move you towards
anything that's a pure move away from
play and if you're just moving away from
something you're going to find yourself
accelerating that sense of aimlessness
and so I there's a a compounding
variable here which is people there's a
rising sentiment burn it all down and
then we'll build Utopia for of a better
word in its place and that is people
that don't understand the absolute
Hellfire of chaos that will rain if your
meaning and purpose becomes destroying
instead of building because if if they
really do succeed in tearing down a
system uh you don't have scaffolding
left to build upon and that bad things
happen in that vacuum well first of all
also it's not possible to tear things
down because the world is larger than
just individuals it's larger than a
movement it's larger than your
generation I'm afraid to say so you
don't even have the power to tear things
down because the world will go into its
own kind of system it's on the human
unconscious has moved us throughout
history Human Nature has it's going to
continue it's beyond it transcends you
as an individual so you don't have as
much power to burn things down as you
imagined so just get over that that
childish fantasy but the second thing I
would say is I began by saying what
matters is your level of energy your
level of motivation in life right and
when you're
cynical and when you're nihilistic it
just drains you of energy why do
anything man it doesn't matter you know
10 years down the road with climate
change we're all going to be dying
anyway what matters okay but I'm writing
a book right now on the sublime in which
I'm trying to say the world that you
live in is not ugly it's not horrible
it's not destructive it's insanely
beautiful the fact of being alive is one
of the most weirdest things I even have
a chapter called awaken to the
strangeness of being alive it's chapter
number two and so just the fact that you
are alive now as a human being is an
incredibly unlikely set of circumstances
that occurred so the world that we live
in is utterly Sublime and utterly weird
and a lot of that interesting stuff
comes from science so at the same time
that technology is kind of making our
brains into mush scientists are
uncovering things that just are so
fantastic they're extraordinary what
we're learning about the cosmos what
we're learning about the origins of Life
what we're learning about Evolution what
we're learning about the brain I mean if
you just think about it it's staggering
and so being part of that wave of
knowledge that's overwhelming us right
now should be incredibly exciting but if
you have no excitement in life if you
think it's all just crap and it's better
just to not care and you know what that
comes from it's a common adolescent pose
and I probably had it when I was 16
years old man I don't care you know
let's screw everything you know it comes
from insecurity it doesn't it's not
strength being that kind of rebel
without any reason for against nothing
is actually a sign of incredible
weakness and you know where it comes
from comes from from the fear of failure
so if I don't try to do anything if I
just say oh it's all going to hell I'm
just going to go in my van I'm just
going to tour around the United States
I'm just going to take videos and things
I you know what the hell let you know as
as King Louis the 14 said a mo Del after
me the delu I don't care if that's your
attitude towards life you know then
that's what that's what you're going to
get so um you have so it comes from a
fear of failure it doesn't come from
strength because to try something to try
to build a business to try and write a
book to try and make a film puts your
you're putting yourself out on the line
and you could fail and with failure
comes criticism and with failure you're
exposing yourself you're exposing your
ambition you're exposing that you
weren't up to the task better to not
even try and to just say oh I don't care
because then you're not exposing
yourself so that kind of pose is is is
actually a form of childish insecurity
that you need to get over but you need
to have a sense of excitement and if you
don't if you think everything is just
gray and equal and bad and we're all
heading to Hell in a hand basket then
that's that's what you becomes a
self-fulfilling prophecy so I'm writing
a book to just make you get that energy
that excitement again and you know what
when you were a child you had
it I don't care if you grew up in this
culture now that is kind of I think
deadening things what you're a child
children have this energy that nothing
can can suppress if you you actually
live in a world of Enchantment things
are like amazing to you you want to
learn you want to read books you want to
explore you want to explore you want to
Adventure you had it when you were a
child and you've lost it you've lost it
in adolescence you lost it when you were
12 you lost it because the culture
sucked it out of you but it's there it's
still waiting to come back to you but if
you don't have that enchantment about
life if you don't see something really
amazing about the one life that you have
that can go back go by very quickly then
nothing will ever change you you're just
going to end up is As I said it'll be a
self-fulfilling prophecy of
Doom okay I agree with all that it's
easy though to step into their shoes and
look back at you and say Hey listen old
man who remembers the late 60s uh that
worked because of the time you were in
and demographics are Destiny and the
time that I'm born it's just an absolute
[ __ ] show uh baby boomers are hoarding
all of the wealth they refuse to leave
the workforce I can't buy a property you
and when you were first getting on the
property ladder it was like $150 to buy
a house in Beverly Hills and so yeah it
seems great for you and Ops uh I've
taken on $180,000 in college debt it's
non-dischargeable even in bankruptcy uh
so you found a way to put me in
indentured servitude and I can't expect
my oh I'm not done I can't expect my
Social Security to be there when I get
there because you [ __ ] won't
die uh
so that's how they're going to look back
at you what do you say to somebody with
that frame of reference well you know
there's obviously some truth to that and
I said I understand why people are the
way they are you know but not every time
is this sort of golden period in history
you know I lived through the 1980s which
I thought was a really really ugly
period in history I found it very Bleak
and very horrifying and I didn't have
this kind of golden thing that you might
imagine I did not have success until I
was 39 years old I struggled I I was
more like how people are nowadays and in
that I wandered from job to job I had 60
different jobs I never held a job for
more than 11 months in my entire life
okay so I know and I got very depressed
I even had moments of being
suicidal I lived in a crappy one-bedroom
apartment in Santa Monica I know Santa
Monica is very nice but back then it
wasn't so nice and so I know what it
means to struggle I didn't have debt but
I didn't have any money I was very poor
living in many most of my life I was
very poor so it's not as golden as you
think for me individually but I
understand the baby boomer scenario and
everything that you're facing but so
what stop whining stop whining about the
circumstances my parents grew up in the
depression it's not that's nowhere near
this times are nowhere near what they
had to deal with my grandparents really
more but even my parents to some extent
so stop your goddamn whining it was
pretty awful back then they faced the
stock market crash in
1929 they had to live through the
depression of the 1930s then they had
World War II you think you have it bad
try having to deal with the Nazis and
the Japanese attacking you both at the
same time the
1960s we had the Vietnam War I was of
the age where I had a draft number my
draft number was so low that I was
certain to be drafted but fortunately
the draft ended like six months before
my age came of whatever so you know you
think it's the worst ever it's not the
worst ever I can point you a 100 other
periods in history that were equally
incredibly Bleak the generation that
came out of World War I do you know the
massacre that young people faced in
World War I that's why we had the 1920s
where the flappers because people didn't
want they wanted to drink themselves
into
Oblivion millions of young men died for
a senseless stupid War okay you have no
historic sense you have no sense of
proportion just because you live in the
2020s you think that this is the worst
time you don't read history you don't
understand that it's not the worst ever
so stop your whining there are plenty of
humans that have dealt with things far
worse than you've ever dealt with our
ancestors who were Pioneers in the 19th
century they F face privations and
poverty that you would have no
conception over you have it much better
than a lot of other people in the past
so stop your goddamn whining people had
it worse in the past a lot of times you
don't have it so bad okay
you have a lot of debt all right you
have to make a plan you have to be
strategic but if you give up if you just
say oh it's the Baby Boomers oh I can't
own a home if that's your energy then
that's going to be the faith that you
have there are always circumstances that
are going to be resistant to you I
understand the resistance factors now
are very powerful but are you going to
meet them or are you just going to give
in and surrender you can make that
choice and that's fine if you want to
live on a organic farm and organ I have
nothing against it and I'm not making
fun of it because that is a good life
that could be fine if that's your
ambition but maybe you can't make it
that way because it's not that's not an
easy life either right so you have to
make a choice do I want something else
for myself or do I just want to wallow
in self-pity and blame other people and
you can blame other people and there's a
lot of things to blame just as when I
was growing up I had a lot of things I
could blame but you have to look at it
differently and you have to say that
kind of energy is self-destructive how
can I get out of that energy I can only
get out of I have to control what I can
control I have bad student debt I have
$100,000 in debt or I got to make a plan
for the next five years first of all you
didn't have to get that $100,000 in debt
so you take a little bit of
responsibility for that you know I mean
I know they had little things that you
signed that you weren't aware of but for
a long time we've been aware of some of
those predatory practices in lending so
is partially your responsibility a
little there but okay you have your
$100,000 in debt you make a plan I'm
going to I'm going to have to work it
off this way I'm going to have to get a
job that pays well but at the same time
I'm going to be building other kind of
life skills Etc I'm going to get myself
out of this hole I'm going to have hope
I'm G to have energy fine that's that's
the alternate path but if you don't have
that if you don't think that it's
possible then there's nothing really
that I can say I could just waste a lot
of words it won't mean anything but
don't think that you have it worse than
other people because you have no sense
of History you're living in this bubble
this illusion of the present you don't
know what people like were living in the
Middle Ages in the 18th century in
America in the 19th century World War I
the depression the Vietnam War Watergate
era the the recession we had then stop
it you don't understand you're not
reading
history and I I agree with that very
much the way that I think about it
because
one uh I have a feeling that even with
the like intense energy you say that
from a place of you want to see them do
well uh you don't want to see them be
stuck and that's certainly where when I
get riled up on this topic it's from
that perspective and what I used to ask
people that would you know come to me
and say look I've got it really hard for
whatever reason and I've worked in the
cities so I've seen poverty just
absolutely demolish people it it's
really brutal to see up close and the
only question that I can think of is
okay you've got $180,000 in student debt
uh boomers are sucking up all the oxygen
in the room whatever whatever all the
bad things terrible economy no way to
get on the property Market all that
climate change the the question that
remains is and now what and if your
answer to and now what is I give up I
will say that that is not a life frame
of reference that I'll I'll refer to it
as that that is going to lead you
anywhere neurochemically advantageous
now okay going back to you're having a
biological experience so when I say A
neurochemically advantageous uh
experience what I mean is you're not
going to feel good it's just going to
feel terrible and so it's an incredibly
self-destructive frame of reference to
adopt now we all see the world through a
distorted lens that's what I mean when I
say frame of reference so your frame of
reference is a pair of glasses that you
wear and those glasses are distorted and
they do not show you reality they show
you a distortion of reality the great
news is uh even though it doesn't seem
like it you get to shape those lenses
and the thing that worries me is that
people have shaped the lens to show them
a world that is uh against them it is a
hostile
Universe well and let's say that these
all these things are real like the
they're very real I don't deny them and
I don't deny the reality of people
living in inner cities and I have a huge
readership among people from inner
cities who've used my books and have
helped them a lot and I did a book with
50 c who's I agree understand as an
exception but he came from the worst
part of America and he managed to pull
himself up in an incredible story so I I
understand that
but let's say that these are the
circumstances that you have and you're
young and when you're young you're
idealistic which is part of cynicism is
just the flip side of idealism so your
idealism you can't really hold on to so
it just flips into cynicism but the two
are very much related and
so if you believe that these things that
that are so injust in this world then
there's your energy there's where you
put yourself there's your cause your
cause isn't to to destroy is to say wow
there's a lot of Injustice in this world
there's a lot of poor people that are
suffering because there's no
opportunities out there Boomers have
created this awful world all right how
do I construct a better world how can I
create a movement how can I how can I
create um more opportunity for other
people how can I start a business that
will employ thousands of people instead
of just wasting away and not and not
contributing at all how can I contribute
to helping climate change you know it
kind of ticks me off
that there's so much technology in
Silicon Valley that goes to entertaining
us to masturbating our mind so to speak
with all kinds of trivial [ __ ]
things that don't matter in life take
all of that Brilliant Energy and do it
to solving some real problems that we're
facing problems that we've just outlined
here about the lack of opportunities
about home ownership about climate
change but pour your energy into
something productive if you feel that
way and then contribute a sense of cont
contribution you know it will fulfill
you in a way as a social animal the
sense of I just didn't whine and give up
I actually did something to help change
this world and if you think that's
impossible if it's just like donot
tilting at windmills then fine and
that's that's what end up happening but
even Don kote had this illusion that he
was actually going to change it so you
need to have those Illusions even if
it's not true that you can change this
world you need least need to believe
that you can kill those windmills with
your sword you need to at least believe
in the illusion and then then you energy
will change so if there's so much
against you there's so much Injustice in
the world there's your cause there's
your energy there's your hope so if it
really is an
illusion uh why would they be better off
believing in an illusion than trying to
contact ground truth figure out what is
real and how to operate moving forward
so that they
can make whatever change it is that they
want to
change well I'm not sure quite I
understand I mean what I meant by
illusion is maybe you as an individual
can't really stop climate change
obviously you can't and it's bigger
problem that you than than than what any
of us can really uh tackle but believing
that you can make a difference will give
you the energy to create something to do
something
as I said in human nature change your
attitude to change your circumstances so
if you believe in it then you will you
will do something towards that and maybe
it won't be enough but if enough people
believe that then it will be enough you
know but what was the second part of
your question that was it I wanted to
know so my thing is it's what I call the
only belief that matters so the only
belief that matters is that if you put
time and energy into getting better at
something you'll actually get better at
it yeah so if like my advice would be
very different if I actually thought
there was nothing they could do the
reason that my advice is to ask and now
what and to come up with a positive
vision for their future is that they
really can make a change I mean there's
just the litany I mean you've already
gone through the Litany of of people
that have had it way worse and they've
still managed to do something productive
with their time anybody that doesn't
know Winston Churchill story it is truly
incredible this was a guy that was
watching his City be bombed nightly he
was constantly in danger he was on the
front lines of World War one being shot
at like this was not somebody who was
tucked away and he had severe bouts of
depression indeed and he was he just
always said you know one I'm grateful
that I live at such a pivotal moment in
history so that we can do something
about this so to your point it's like if
you really see a lot of things you want
to make change on then it's like okay
what do I need to do in order to make
that change so going back to frame of
reference if your frame of reference is
cynical and there's nothing I can do it
it becomes that self-fulfilling prophecy
because only behaviors matter but your
behaviors are Downstream of your beliefs
so if you don't get your beliefs right
that hey if I engage in this if I go do
something uh if I want to pay off my
student loans there is a path to getting
this done and that doesn't mean that the
deck isn't stacked against people it
doesn't mean that there aren't worse
times in human history but at the same
time if you the only way to make a bad
time worse is to have a negative
attitude about it and I mean look
there's two books written about a
schwitz where that's the punchline man
search for meaning and then um the book
is called the choice I forget the
woman's name uh she's still alive as far
as I know she was doing podcasts very
recently and her whole family is killed
in the Holocaust she was in the
Holocaust um and she was a dancer and
the Nazis used to make her dance while
they were like selecting people to be
killed it was crazy just like
unimaginable amounts of psychological
torture and she realized I have a choice
to make now that I've survived is that
going to be my life or am I going to
find a way to find meaning and purpose
and and go after something yeah and so
it's I I don't want to adjudicate
whether worst time not worst time I just
want to say such is The Human Condition
yeah that everyone is going to encounter
difficult things your frame of reference
is going to control what you do and what
you do will control the quality of your
life I mean aitz I mean who had it worse
than that can you imagine and I've read
many many accounts of it as somebody
who lost a lot of my ancestry in in the
Holocaust um and I I highly I can't
recommend enough reading Man's Search
for meaning Victor Frankl it's an
amazing book that accounts what he lived
through but also a philosophy of life
that will serve you very well in exactly
the struggles that we're talking about
people when they have this sort of
negative view of power damn it that
makes me so angry it triggers all of my
buttons I'm sorry to say because I I am
an emotional creature I have to admit
because everything is about power right
the idea that you don't want power that
you say oh I'm not interested in that
I'm I'm I'm All About truth and Justice
and what's good for Humanity that's a
form of power I'm sorry to say you are
seeking power you are seeking power over
other people you know some of the most
heinous crimes have been committed by
people who think they're doing good for
for others right okay but you want power
right and I look at academics who have
these very lengthy very powerful
arguments about the world etc etc it's
all about power they don't want to admit
it they want to admit it's just about
ideas it's just about intellect about
you know the realm of of of exchanging
ideas [ __ ] it's about power you want
this sense of expansion you want people
to love you you want you love that
feeling that what you're doing is
influencing ing others that you have hit
the right
answer everything you do the everything
you breathe in is a desire for power is
a desire for
expansion look in the mirror and admit
it and let's get away from the negative
connotations that we have with it yes
power can be used for bad purposes but
as Malcolm X said um you know absolute
power corrupts but powerlessness
corrupts even more so the feel that you
don't have any power that's so important
so the feeling that you don't have any
power is even more corrupting because it
makes you passive aggressive it turns
you into these Warriors who think
they're doing something and you're not
even aware of what you're really after
so that was the whole point of the 48
Laws of Power it was an inflection
moment in our culture in our history
where I was getting really upset with
all of the political correctness and all
of the squid self-help books out there
right and trying to appeal to our good
side and etc etc and things like
ambition or power were ugly words man I
hated that I thought it was so
hypocritical because my experience in
Hollywood for instance where I dealt
with a lot of film directors and
powerful people is they would project
this image of being extremely liberal
and for all the good causes but they
were wanted power they really wanted
power and they would often treat people
in a poor fashion despite being for all
the great causes and the hypocrisy just
really rankled me and that's sort of why
I wrote the 48 Laws of Power to expose
that but I want people to
admit you were saying look at yourself
that you have this desire for power it
can twist you you can you can look for
it in wrong ways most definitely but at
least come to Jesus come to Muhammad and
admit that that's who you are that
that's what's motivating you in your
behavior and from there we can start
seeing well maybe there more
constructive forms of power that I can
go after it's so interesting because
when I
was maybe 25 something like that 26
maybe I bought the domain seeking power
oh and I 20 years ago yeah very long
time ago so a couple years after my book
came out but I'm not saying there was
any unfortunately I had not read it yet
I wish I had you would have saved me a
lot of Stu
but um I that felt true to who I was I
was like I come seeking power and it was
it felt so light and so expansive and so
positive so it's weird to me that the
word power is taken on like these dark
evil
connotations but I was like I want to
get better I want to get more powerful
and my whole youth I had felt so weak
and getting into business I had finally
encountered the idea that you could get
better than other people you could
outperform them and in outperforming
them you could transform your life and
you could do things that other people
couldn't do I wish unfortunately Kobe
Bryant didn't exist back then in any way
that I was aware of anyway uh and he has
this whole idea of booze don't block
dunks and that you can get so good at
something that no matter how much people
hate you want to stop you whatever you
can outplay them and you can still dunk
over them and I was like oh my God God
like this is so amazing so all I have to
do is get good at things now to your
point if you're using that for evil I've
got no time for that but in your own
life if it's you know whether in
business if you don't acknowledge that
it's a competition you're going to get
eaten alive so recognizing okay like
this is a competition I'm not out to
hurt other people but I'm absolutely out
to outperform them and life became way
more fun when I realized oh I can come
seeking power I can sit at somebody's
feet and learn from them and want want
to grow more powerful and that's why
like this whole moment that we're living
through now feels like the wrong way to
go about the change that people want to
see in the world because it's like if
you own okay I I want this outcome and
to get that outcome I need to Garner a
set of skills I need to get better at my
performance and then I can do it when
it's out in the open and you're taking
personal responsibility in fact here's
the the easiest way to sum it up
as Gary ve says there are two ways to
build the tallest building in town you
can knock everybody else's building down
or you can build a building that's
taller than theirs great and if you're
spending time knocking people's
buildings down which is the energy I
feel coming off of a lot of people
that's not interesting to me and people
do it in the name of oh no no no like
they were just their building violated
some invisible code you know where that
comes from it comes from
Envy EnV is a huge Mo motive motivator
of people's behavior now so the drive to
bring other people down is is really
truly motivated by feelings of Envy
inferiority that other people are better
than you are so it's it's a leveling
process that's going down where we want
to bring everybody down to the same
level nobody's excellent nobody's
accomplished anything oh they just
accomplished great things because they
had money or because their parents sent
them to Yale or Dartmouth or because you
know they had all this privilege you
know we're all you know so it's like
bringing everyone down but I think that
it's Envy is is is the root cause of it
so going back to the where we started
that people are bored they feel like
they're wasting their life but you were
saying you know wherever you go there
you are that this is an internal problem
you have to master your
emotions how do you begin to tile that
together for somebody that wants out of
that they want to love their life and
feel like they're making the most of it
you talked about like we actually have
the ability to get a drug-like effect by
looking Inward and and what is it and
improving ourselves and just falling in
love being honest about what we actually
like in pursuing it like is is that an
act of the will to
expansion what what's driving that well
um you know there are many ways to look
at that it's um but in Mastery I I my
way of describing it is a very high form
of fulfillment because I like to think
of fulfillment over happiness
happiness seems like a kind of an
immediate thing where you know getting
some kind of stimulation or drinking
whiskey will make you happy but it won't
make you fulfilled fulfilling
fulfillment is a longer lasting emotion
it comes from wow I spent two years
doing that I made what I went out set
out to create I feel fulfilled it's a
wonderful feeling it's the greatest high
in the world I think okay so my one
Avenue to get towards what you're saying
is through your work I'm not saying it's
everything because I understand
relationships and people and children
all these things are very important okay
but I'm looking at through your work to
reach a level of feeling of that sense
of power and expansion and fulfilled and
when you have that feeling you don't
want to hurt other people you don't
there's no need for it there's no need
to push people around for no reason you
feel comfortable with yourself all right
so the number one thing the most
important thing is to figure out the
path towards that kind of fulfillment
through your work or through your career
right now some people don't like that
I've been criticized before I went once
and gave a talk at Stanford and they
were thinking that that was just so
elitist like fulfillment well through
your work like this one woman said my
father was a truck driver his whole life
are you saying that he wasn't fulfilled
you know that kind of criticism what did
you say to that I said well that's
actually very elitist on your part
you're saying that that's all your
father was ever capable of achieving
maybe you know if he was happy being a
truck driver if that excited him if
that's what he was destined to create if
he felt comfortable with that fine I
have no problem but a lot of people in
very working class jobs aren't
necessarily so happy their lives are
full of routine there's no kind of
intellectual challenge to it and if you
know anything about the human animal and
the human brain we're Vora our brains
are voracious we need constant
stimulation so if you're driving a truck
all day that's all you have if that's
fulfilling for you maybe yes being a
good driver and getting there on time
and delivering Goods maybe that is a
road to fulfillment but maybe your
father was frustrated maybe he was
drinking or something maybe it didn't
really fulfill him so how can you say
that people just should just settle for
what they have right because a lot of
people aren't happy and they may think
they're happy they may kind of they may
kind of deceive themselves but deep down
inside they're frustrated and that's why
they turn to having Affairs that's why
they turn to alcohol that's why they
turn to drugs that's why they turn to
addictions etc etc etc there are all
kinds of signs of that so I'm not
necessarily assuming that your father
was fulfilled by his truck driv I could
be that's how I answered her she wasn't
happy with that okay anyway um so some
people criticize this notion of work but
no we are animals that love to make
things somebody wants to find us as
homop Faber the animal that likes to
build things to make things that's our
hands we became powerful through making
tools Etc also by being social animals
don't get me wrong but we're creatures
that are designed to make things to
build things to create
right and I don't I'm not an elitist I
think every human being on the planet
has that desire right they wanted that
fulfillment and I don't care if they're
born poor and they're impoverished or
they're homeless they still have that
need and they have that capacity to
become a master in what they do so the
most important thing in life is to
figure out what is your path what is the
kind of work that will bring you that
sense of fulfillment okay so so some
people it's being an entrepreneur it's
being in business other people it's the
Arts or It's Entertainment of some sort
other people it's writing it's words
it's literature other people it's the
body it's Sports it's dance it's
whatever I don't care I don't have a
hierarchy I don't say writing books is
better than building wood things wooden
things with your hands it's all the same
to me right it's all a form of a skill
it all can lead to Mastery but you have
to find out what that is and then you
have to build towards it and when you
reach that point let's just look at the
end point so in your 20s which is the
most important part of your life I think
we really yeah I don't want to derail
but okay we should come back to that
it's where you're discovering yourself
it's where all the seeds are planted for
what's going to happen to you of course
they're planted in your earliest years
don't get me wrong but I do think that's
the most critical phase right you're
exploring you're trying things out
you're experimenting with different uh
careers Etc you're gaining skills
because you're learning you like you
said you wanted to learn right and then
you're
3233 and you start a podcast a website
your own business Etc and maybe it fails
but you're excited it's your own and
then you learn from it and then you
create something even better man it's
like the greatest feeling in the world
you don't need anything else you know
you've accomplished something you set a
goal and you reached it it is to me a
feeling of high so when I write a
book it's painful there's a lot of pain
involved stress etc etc but man there's
nothing in the world I would give up I
even had a stroke probably because of
that I wouldn't give up any of that for
that sense of I could look back I wrote
that book I can die tomorrow and I'm
happy I did what I thought I needed to
do I reached not all my potential but a
good portion of my potential to me that
is if everybody had that open to them
then I think we would live in a much
better world if we live if people knew
that as a value and went towards it and
I think the greatest periods in history
the kind of the golden eras we can look
at Athens we can look at Renaissance
Italy we could look at the 1920s in
America the Jazz here and all the great
cultural movements
pick your whatever period you like some
people like the 60s some people hate the
60s I don't care whatever you think is a
golden era their era of richness of
diversity of all kinds of creative
people doing all kinds of interesting
things it's an openness and everyone is
experimenting and that this kind of
change it's brewing and experimentation
that's to me is a high point of human
culture and it comes from more and more
individuals doing taking this path that
I'm talking about do you have a a math
equation for lack of a better word for
fulfillment how would that be a plus b
kind of so here I think that so I agree
with you so violently I want to bite
through the table uh so I might not be
the best use of my teeth uh so I have a
rough formula of what I think leads to
fulfillment I think about this a lot so
I'm always looking for somebody that can
help me refine but I think it goes like
this it has to be hard and there's
reasons for this from an evolutionary
standpoint but it has to be hard it has
to be something that you get more energy
from than it takes so it's something
that you inherently enjoy and it has to
be something that allows you to
transform your potential into skill set
and that skill set has to be something
that serves you and the group if you do
all of that you will be fulfilled if any
one of those pieces are missing it's
really hard it's something you love
you're improving your skill set but it
only serves you you won't be fulfilled
if all of it but it only serves a group
and not you you won't be fulfilled it it
seems to me that it has to have all of
those
elements yeah I mean I think there are
people unfortunately who get that
fulfillment without the group part do
you do you think they're actually
fulfilled yeah I mean um if you like
artists who write to do some kind of
great art but they're not necessarily
the best people in the world world you
know it might be a total dick but if
their art which I think is its own
punishment PS but they may find
fulfillment in their art if they get
feedback from the group the group is
moved it's
Sublime you know and so their art
creates the desired feeling in that
person they have contributed to the
group in my estimation but if that same
artist made art and nobody gave a [ __ ]
about it I don't think they would feel
fulfilled well you know I don't want to
split hairs with you cuz you're largely
correct but I do I can't think of
examples of people who were ignored in
their lifetime and it was painful but
they knew they were right they knew they
had created something brilliant they
knew they had created some invention and
it was ignored and nobody cared and
nobody liked them and Tesla Nicola Tesla
yeah he was pretty miserable yeah so
despite doing all this incredible [ __ ]
being out of step with your time is
rough you are the shout and the echo so
even though when Einstein was asked
what's it like to be the most brilliant
man alive he said I don't know you'll
have to ask Nicola Tesla despite that
Tesla died very unhappy by all accounts
I obviously did not know him certainly
alone and broke and so there was
something was missing he could never get
I'm I am definitely psychoanalyzing
somebody I have no right to but I have a
gut instinct that because he could not
figure out the echo part of doing
something in a way where people
reflected back that yes this is
amazingly valuable that even though now
we all reap the benefits was very little
consolation I can't think of it because
my mind is slowing down but I was
talking recently uh with my wife about
artists and composers Etc who had no
success in life she's going really yeah
never sold any books their music was
ignored but my research of them they
they had just in the work itself in the
absorption of the mind and composing
This brilliant thing or in writing this
thing they had that
flow yes so the pain is definitely there
I'm not arguing against you because they
said you might be right I mean I'm
utterly FAS splitting hairs but the the
thing is is the sense of flow because
what happens is what makes you miserable
is your self-absorption in many ways
right the worst form of therapy is to
sit there and talk about your problems
the best form of therapy is to get
outside of your
Brother people are going to be like the
record just skipped for a lot of people
go back the worst form of therapy is
talk therapy what what what yeah yeah I
well I mean maybe not the worst but it's
not to me the most productive therapy to
just talk about your problems really why
because it's like it's like accentuating
your self-absorption
right whereas what you need is to get
outside of yourself not into all of your
your problems now of course I I'm
contradicting myself because I talked
about
introspection that's a different thing
we're not introspecting about my
problems what my parents did to me more
and more oh I'm so miserable blah blah
blah I'm sure there are forms of talking
therapy that are good so I shouldn't
generalize that but what I think I don't
know something feels intuitively right
about this yeah well I just wrote sorry
I keep doing that about um this man
people won't have heard of him he's he's
a a
Russian Mystic whatever you want to call
him gerg Jeff who had these exercises
name but I don't know um and one thing
he taught his students was to not vent
your unpleasant emotions so we had this
exercise called
self-observation where you to go observe
yourself like you did in the most
deepest way not just your thoughts but
about your body and how your body and
your mind interact in this insane
continual blend there's no separation so
one kind of thought will affect your
body but a feeling in your gut will
affect your thinking you're all this
observe yourself observe yourself
observe yourself and he said you will
discover in observing yourself that most
of your thoughts revolve around
unpleasant emotions it's a very bad
thing to realize but it's true I use the
number 95% but I I as I said I'm pulling
it out of you know what again um okay so
most of it is dealing with frustration
resentment anger bitterness etc etc etc
okay and he said look at those emotions
see them do not judge them do not say
they're bad or good or whatever and
don't ever talk about them don't vent
them to people you can look at them but
don't talk about them and the people who
experience go whoow by not talking about
them they start they start to go away I
didn't really feel them because I never
expressed them so expressing them was
kind of what makes them stronger and
more embedded inside of you I feel like
we're doing that culturally right now
yes most definitely I mean
look what is the Crux of the problem in
people today if I had to summarize it or
and I don't mean people I'm include
myself in them us because I'm a human
being as well as far as I know I've
heard we're
self-absorbed right I think that's the
root cause of so many of our issues
right because we are creatures that are
actually built for empathy for actually
putting our minds into other things into
people into animals into solving
problems into our work that's who we are
and we've turned that around where all
of that voracious brain energy that we
have as I said I just wrote a chapter on
the brain and it's this insanely
powerful instrument that is so complex
people say it's the most complex piece
of matter in the universe right it's so
powerful and when you turned inward it
just eats Us Alive inside it's like a
bacteria eating us from within as
opposed to exteriorizing it into work
into creating things into building
things into empathy into working with
other people and if we're getting all
ranty and outraged about Justice etc etc
what you really need to do is to get
outside of that and out helping other
people genuinely helping them right if
your cause is and it's my cause is as
well as the environment which I believe
ex a lot where my charity goes to then
ranting and complaining online and
making people feel bad is useless go out
and start a movement create something do
something you'll feel so much better
about yourself and you'll be
contributing it but what we don't need
is more of that self-absorption it's
like a centri centripedal force that's
drawing us further and further and
further in my problems my parents
my education my brother and sister my
wife more and more inward more problems
that gets deeper deeper more inass
erasin inside of ourselves right you
want to get out of yourself right and
put it into your work so you know let's
say you're an artist right I have great
respect for artist I kind of wished I
had been an artti I'm a failed artist
this is a guy who's written incredible
bestselling books I've walked through
bookstores and watched them bring in
stacks of books that you wrote decades
ago oh yeah but I wanted to be a a
novelist you know so fascinating it is
so weird to me that you can sell at your
level and still be like oh but I wanted
to be this I'm the same which is why I
have such response to that because I am
not good at the things that I wanted to
be good at and the things that I am good
at that other people Envy me for I'm
like like that's not very interesting
what is it that you wanted to be that
list is very long I my if I could Snap
My Fingers I would be Elon Musk that is
like my fantasy of
fantasies you have plenty of time you're
young yeah we'll see a I'm 46 what's he
like 47 48 like he's barely older than
me if he's over 50 Now 51 52 I mean he's
like was certainly within Striking
Distance and look I am honest enough
with myself know thyself as robbert
green would say uh that I don't my brain
doesn't process data the way that his
does now he warns people like me not to
want to be like him because he says
having the intrusive thoughts that he
has around engineering and problem
solving he said it's you know it's like
having this thing turned on that you
can't turn off any wish could
interesting but I I would pay that price
so before we started rolling you and I
were talking I'm I am very enamored with
what you've created and put into the
world and you've you still fill a niche
that so few people are able to fill I
think it's utterly fascinating you I
said once in our earlier interview that
when I read your books I can hear wolves
howling in the background but in real
life you're so lovely and kind and
considerate so most people that write
dark books are [ __ ] dark and they
don't even realize they're writing a
dark book but like your stuff really
deals with an underbelly of The Human
Condition but yet you're this lovely
person anyway what you've put in the
world think is absolutely
incredible and so I totally understand
the the impetus to be good at one thing
to wish you were good at something else
but it is a very fascinating part of the
human psyche well probably if I had been
a novelist I would and I was at this age
and I was successful I'd say you know I
really wanted to write non-fiction books
correct The Grass Is Always Greener so
who am I to say yeah it's such a weird
[ __ ] thing but so the what I find
interesting about what you were saying
is that this idea and I haven't thought
a lot about this so um I'm thinking out
loud here but the idea that if you're
repeating something over and over and
and I have said many many times whatever
you become what you repeat so if you're
saying to yourself like hey I can figure
this out I can learn I can grow then you
will act in
accordance and I find that there's
something about this moment where we are
obsessing over things I'm not even
saying they're not real but we're
obsessing over them to to the point
where it's becoming counterproductive
like we're seeing things
where they aren't necessarily or we're
exaggerating things that are there but
like now we're making them seem just
absolutely terrifying and I think that
there's something that people have to be
careful about there that you
can you can make your own life worse by
obsessing over the things that are wrong
rather than like you said making it
somehow external or creating a piece of
art around it something I don't know
creating something like I said I'm
thinking out loud I don't have my finger
fully on why I can sense that there's a
problem with it but there's a problem
with oh I think most definitely we can
feel it in the sight guys it's kind of
ugly it's an ugly energy it's an ugly
energy I normally hate that kind of
loose talk but because I don't I don't
yet know how to articulate it that feels
really right so you talked about this
earlier and I I can't remember where I
first heard this but the idea that some
things make you feel expand and some
make you
constrict this moment feels like a mass
constriction and that's why I
worry yeah and the feeling of openness
which I say occurs historically because
we're social animals and things occur in
these kind of cultural Globs these
generational
moments is because of like memes and and
being infected by the people around us
and in moments of expansion
your I your minds are open you're
adventurous you're exploring it often
comes in in these kind of revolutionary
periods where people are just so sick of
the past 20 years and all the
accumulated baggage and all the ways of
doing things they're just tired of it
they want something new and so they're
exploring and they're hungry and they're
adventurous for new ideas and people
come up with wild things but who cares
it's wild but it's interesting it's new
there's discussion there's argument but
people aren't killing each other over it
right these are great moments in history
and it's an feeling of expansion and
adventurousness so if you have an
adventurous Spirit which I think is an
incredibly positive um Quality to have
that means you're continually open to
life you're continually open to what
happens what it brings to you and you're
seeking it out you want new things
you're learning you're not closed off
you never have a moment where I'm know
what I know what this is happening Etc
you have what the poet kei's called
negative capability I don't know if
you're familiar with that con I am but
because of you oh yeah talked about it
in Mastery it's basically the fact that
you can carry in your mind two
contradictory ideas and not be upset
about that because quite honestly
sometimes things are contradictory and
they're true right it's weird but it's
true right it could be a it could be be
black it could be white and they're both
correct the fact that you can hold two
things that seem opposing in your mind
at the same time he considered the
foundation of creativity he thought that
was Shakespeare's greatest quality it's
what makes a great scientist a great
inventor great entrepreneur a great
inventor etc etc do you have any
examples I I agree most wholeheartedly
but I'd be hard pressed to give an
example off the top of my
head well I'm going to I'm going to mess
it up horrifically because I don't
remember it so well but there's the
story of Louie
Pastor we're talking about invention um
and of sort of the whole science of
Immunology right and here I'm having to
strain my my neurons here to Fe to
remember it but um basically he had
these chickens that had been injected
with small poox or whatever the disease
is right
and then they all died okay and then he
brought in a new batch of chicken he's
trying to figure out how to solve small
poox or whatever it was brought a new
batch of chickens in he injected them
and
then they
survived some of them
survived and he couldn't figure out why
and then
um he injected them
again and I know I'm missing it up so
please out there scientists don't don't
don't flame me for this you know he's
trying to figure out why they survived
and basically it was because the small
pox that he that he had injected them
with the second batch was weaker it had
been left outside and so they had
developed immunity from it by having
this smaller less intense version of
small pox injected into them so the next
time they got injected they had the
antibodies now we think we we take this
for granted now but nobody had a concept
for antibodies back there back then it
was a totally novel
concept and so when he saw these
chickens that survived he was like why
you know why what happened and he
submitted this to other scientists and
they came up with all kinds of ideas
that were basically the same ideas
rehashed you know it was an accident you
have to redo the experiment or they
survived because of this that and the
other and he asked himself well no maybe
it's something that nobody ever
considered maybe what had happened was
by having the weaker batch they were
able to somehow survive so he asked a
question that was
counterintuitive right which is
injecting someone with something will
give them a better chance of surviving
it which is like whoa that's like a
contradiction in terms how can that
happen he was able to entertain this
very bizarre idea that contradicted
everything in medicine at the same time
he had negative capability and he
displayed it in other aspects of his
life as well and he invented one of the
most important breakthroughs in the
history of medicine there are other
examples I could give of artists because
it's most common with artists but you
know people like Einstein had it as well
Etc so um that that you asked for
example I give you a bad one but no
that's actually really that's a great
one uh I've one in business I was just
thinking about and cuz I talk about this
in um impact Theory University a lot you
have to be able to hold two competing
ideas in your head at the same time and
the the one that I encounter the most is
as a leader you have to understand that
people are Intoxicated by certainty in a
way that is almost
distressing and in fact we just impact
Theory just had our sixth birthday and
one of the founding members thank you
very much one of the founding members
recorded a video of an early memory and
she was like I remember Tom had so much
conviction about what we were going to
build cuz I had to convince all these
people like to you know do the startup
starting literally from scratch and she
was like Tom had so much conviction that
we were going to be able to pull this
off and so one of the things I teach is
you have to be able to create a
narrative you have to be able to say
this is what's going to happen this is
exactly how we're going to do it and if
you can like show people that you just
really believe to the core that this is
going to work uh then they'll follow you
the problem is that if you're blinded by
your own narrative you're G to get
blindsided and so you have to have this
narrative you have to present it with
conviction you have to believe it but
then you have to question the [ __ ] out
of it and make sure that like is this
really working like am I getting the
data that I should be getting because
any conviction like that should make a
prediction if your predictions aren't
coming true then you're in trouble so
it's like you have to be convicted and
at the same time be hypers skeptical of
your own Vision that's perfect except
exle I couldn't have said it better
thank you people can't like that's hard
it's hard it's hard but it's very high
level of
creativity you know and if you can reach
it it's it's like
gold you said something earlier that I
want to go back to I've been holding it
my head because it was so intriguing to
me woman yes at the Stanford talk the
one who uh was annoyed that you said
that you could find fulfillment in your
work why do you think it made her mad I
understand you rebuttal to her but why
did it make her mad well I think there's
a context first of all this was like the
a group of
psychologists AC very heavy Academia
right high level and here was this
self-help writer from Los Angeles coming
to the Stanford behavioral School
telling us about what is fulfilling
there was an IM immediate snobbery going
on on I could sense it and I think that
was a large part of it it was like when
I went to France although this was not
nearly as bad an example of this
American is going to teach us about
seduction come on we're French right we
taught the world how to seduce I could
laugh then I thought they were right you
know and I felt kind of humbled about
that but this woman I got a sense of it
wasn't necessarily what I was saying it
just it rankled them that um
that I was saying the other thing that
rankled her was that I was saying that
as an
individual you could change yourself and
I have brought up the example because it
was recently I was re writing about this
with the 50 Cent book about the great
African-American writer Richard Wright
who wrote this fabulous novel called
native son is that the name there is a
book called native son I don't know if
you wrote it but and um how he had
overcome incredible adversity in his
life and had written this book and then
basically kind of kind of went downhill
from them but he had resurrected himself
through his work and he had overcome
this horrific poverty that he grew up in
the South Etc and I was detailing the
process of him as a writer as an example
of what I was describing about through
your work you reached this level so
there were two things there was the
snobbery element of this Los Angeles
because you know from La people are are
appreciably Dumber further south you go
in California right if you're in the Bay
Area you're from Los Angeles you already
have a mark against you interesting I
know self-help writer from Los Angeles
okay as bad as a guess yeah all right
and then the other element of it's not
about culture it's not about the super
structure of society it's not about some
Marxist theory about you know your level
of income and your and all of the other
things I was saying this person this
individual overcame the worst kind of
adversity not through a government
program although I have nothing against
government programs I'm not one of those
Arch Libertarians I believe in necessity
of government I'm somebody who's
educated through Public Schools through
my whole life and I and I love that but
he did it on his own in a process that
was very arduous and beautiful it's like
well well this goes against everything
we believe in that you can't do things
on your own that you need an
organization you need a structure you
need politics you need the group you
need you need a you need academics at
Stanford to teach you how to get to that
point right so I was nailed as the
self-help writer from Los Angeles who is
preaching about individualism and it fit
all the cliches about the
American etc etc etc right and that's
not the trend in Academia the trend is
trying to move away this goes back to
the whole structuralist movement and
deconstruction Etc it's not the
individual that creates a work of art
it's the culture right getting away from
the idea that there's a writer there's a
narrator narrator it's all about the
culture it's impersonal so what I was
saying went against all of the trends in
Academia and it really upset them
because maybe I'm wrong but I was
challenging some of their deepest held
principles at least for this one woman
she was very she wasn't rude or anything
but I could sense that I had rubbed her
the wrong way and she was very kind of
it was an there was an element of anger
underneath her tone it's interesting you
just opened up a whole new can of worm
so the when you brought her up the first
time you were talking about um she was
insens that her father wasn't fulfilled
as a truck driver and that the whole
idea that somebody would find their
fulfillment through work to her seemed
crazy
and I was when you were talking about it
I was like okay why would she get mad
about that well not not crazy but that
everybody should do that way because I
was saying that everyone should have
that opportunity to me the ultimate
anti- elitist belief that even her
father who drove a
truck could have done could have been an
artist could have created something
through driving or in some other Capac
some other capacity interesting what
about the idea of doing the driving so
well that it becomes Artistry I said
that that if that was what fulfilled him
I have no problem with that and if what
fulfills you is being a great parent
then that is a form of Mastery when
Mastery came out I had some Carpenters
who were doing the tile work on my patio
and I was interviewed by the New York
Times about my book and I said he's just
a good example of Mastery as Albert
Einstein he was so careful and so
precise did a brilliant job he got a
great sense of satisfaction of seeing a
beautifully done you know bit of
craftsmanship right we craftsmanship is
a high form of intellect to my my
viewpoint it's actually a great thing
and it's something that people used to
Value you know I mean look at the
cathedrals in Europe you know some of
the most beautiful things ever created
by human beings Craftsmen Masons Etc
people who can make stained glass they
were masters of it these are things we
need to celebrate so I have no problem
your form of Mastery whatever it is if
it is driving a truck but maybe driving
a truck isn't something that's
fulfilling and maybe you should consider
that about your father maybe I don't
know ambition is
seductive why why do women find ambition
seductive I think you'd have to go to
evolutionary reasons I think it goes
back to something biological almost it
shows that a man can provide
he's he's going to be someone who's
going to make a good living he can
provide for me he can take care of me
you know um I don't know how much of
that is still alive in in human
psychology but I believe that is the
root of it that a man who doesn't have
ambition H you know I can't lean on him
for support phys materially and
psychologically but an ambitious man he
you know the he may be uncontrollable he
may be a little bit dangerous but damn
it he's going to be able to to survive
in a very tough world and women know
it's a tough world and you know so they
need sometimes they need that kind of
powerful figure as a support in their
life even though they're they're often
the Breadwinners now and they're they
still have that desire for a man that
shows that he can take care of himself
he can take care of his world he can
provide for them if they need it ET ET
what's the difference between the way
that a man would seduce a woman and the
way that a woman would seduce a
man well it's it's it's very Elemental I
mean as of course it depends on the
circumstances but as I outlining The Art
of Seduction women will use the visual
sense factors the senses that men are so
vulnerable too you know how they dress
how their body looks their perfume the
uh the sound of their voice I say in The
Art of Seduction that a woman's voice is
perhaps one of the greatest Under
undervalued tools that a woman possesses
men don't realize it they don't think
about it because they so think that only
are looking at like the physical
component but a woman's voice is very
very powerful and I related to the voice
of the mother and a kind of a sing song
equality and I have known women in my
life who's go wow that woman has an
incredibly seductive voice it's very
powerful tool so men are drawn to those
sense cues and and and they're very
they're almost like you can't control
them and women have learned over
centuries how to appeal to that they
also
know that men have a desire to pursue to
hunt to to to go after something if
that's the kind of man because all some
men are not like that
and so they know how to play the coet
the coet was a feminine invention there
are now men who are coets for sure but
the original coquettishness is a female
quality
of I'm I I'm I make the man interested
and then I pull back he has to chase me
because they know men love to Chase and
if I show that I'm not interested in him
that excites his interest so those are
the ways that women will seduce a man a
man a man will seduce a woman by things
we've already talked about
the quintessential male Seducer is The
Rake doesn't seem like he'd be very very
uh attractive because he he he can only
have as many women as he can find in his
life right he's not willing to settle
down but when a rake is is interested in
a woman he's 100% attend attuned to them
he's in their world he's listening to
them for the one month or two month that
he's with that woman she is his whole
life right not in a scary sense but in a
very interesting poetic sense he knows
how to give the right kind of gifts he
knows to take her to the right places
he's very attentive his energy is
focused on her and um and he knows how
to lead so leading is not just forcing
someone it's like I'm leading you into
the story that I'm creating I'm taking
you to certain places even literally to
certain places but I'm leading you down
a path and you're excited by the
adventure and the Mystery of where is
this is going and so you know those are
those are two different kind of
stereotypical strategies that men versus
women will will utilize I want to go
back to what you were saying about the
female voice so this twice now at least
twice where you've made reference to
they do something that is modeled after
the mom or like the mom obviously
there's the old phrase that men marry
their mothers and and women marry their
fathers I've never really liked that um
it I've always thought it might be
closer to something like men marry women
who make them feel the way their mom
made them feel see that uh but what is
it about the mom how why would that be a
positive seductive trigger well it's not
necessarily
positive um but it's
uncontrollable
so a lot of our erotic desires what
we're interested in are things we cannot
control that go back to our first years
in life right and we're not even aware
of it we're not even conscious of it and
so the mother figure for a boy for the
for a male is extremely powerful it's
extremely incred because if you think
about it unlike a girl our first years
of our lives are completely involved
dependent on a woman the opposite sex
right and so that has an extreme
powerful impact on our personality and
we internalize Her Image in our head and
that turns into what we what Yung called
the anim and animos you might believe
that it's just nonsense but I happen to
believe it's very very real it's very
amazing Theory okay so that female
figure from your mother gets under your
skin and sometimes mothers are not good
necessarily good figures maybe they're
narcissists maybe they were so much
involved in their own looks that they
didn't pay you much attention so it's
not always that they're a POS it's a
positive thing but because that got
under your skin in a way you're not even
aware of you're attracted to women who
have that narcissistic quality because
you want to replay a lot of that drama
that occurred in those earliest years um
and I know people are going go though
that's such [ __ ] I can't you're not
even aware that's happening I'm I'm I'm
sorry to say because it's occurring in
your unconscious but if you look at it
if you see the patterns in your love
life and you see the kinds of women that
you are attracted to you will inevitably
see an element of what I'm talking about
right sometimes it's a woman that has a
physical resemblance to your mother and
that's an extremely common pattern
believe me but sometimes it's more a
psychological quality the fact that she
was very solicitous with attention and
showered you and made you feel special
man I never gotten that feeling again
since I had with my mother you're not
aware of that but you're looking for the
for the woman that will give you that
feeling again or as I said your mother
was a narcissist she was just completely
involved in herself and her clothes and
her look I want to find a woman who's
like that because maybe this time I can
get that woman to really love me and
give me the attention I never really got
from my mother so these early early
years have such a powerful impact on you
you're you're not even aware and the
flip side is the same for women with the
father figure and um I think a lot of
women will admit that the Father Figure
had a very very powerful impact on what
they're attracted to they're usually
more honest about it because
men um find the the whole issue of the
mother kind of creepy the sense of being
so dependent on a woman being so weak
that I'm after my mother oh it's like a
Freudian edle thing oh my God that's
disgusting I don't want to admit it but
it's very true it's very
real yeah that one's uh that one's
tricky all right you I didn't convince
you um no that one I'm really just
trying to sponge I've never quite
understood it so you've given me another
brick of information to lay down in my
desperate attempts to map how this stuff
all really works okay um like you and
you said this at the beginning really
the thing you want to get to is what
really works like where does a rubber
meet the road on all this stuff not not
in fantasy land but like for real for
real um somebody's going on a date they
met them online never met them before
there's like a screen check process you
guys have had to do this sort of dumb
some of the guys here will show me the
way that they have to flirt on the apps
in order to get to the first date so how
one how do you set it up in the
flirtation to get to the date and then
how do we be maximally seductive on that
date
well you know I didn't grow up in the
era of Tinder so it's um you know it's I
don't really know I've never had to deal
with it right do you think it's going to
be a different set of rules I have a
feeling it's going to be the same set of
rules but it's a different playing field
I will give you that but well the the
main thing is that I would say in in in
a kind of macro sense of is pay
attention to the
nonverbals so seduction is a language
that does not involve words it involves
what is not spoken it involves your body
language your eyes your smile your face
how you compose your face how you walk
how you present
yourself the um the places you take the
woman to reveal who you are if you take
her to a a pizza and beer joint that
probably that says something as opposed
to an elegant restaurant how you dress
is part of that language are you just
wearing your shorts and t-shirt or do
you present yourself in a KN maybe those
shorts and t-shirt for some women would
work but for a lot of women it shows you
don't really
care so pay attention to all the
non-verbal things to the little signs
that the woman is very very attentive to
and be able to control that to some
degree so you want to present yourself
as you say the most anti- seductive
quality is
insecurity so it's hard to fake the
non-verbal secure cues that are in the
world and a lot of that centers around
the eyes and the face and the mouth and
how you smile Etc and there are weak
ways of looking kind of and there are
aggressive ways and confident ways that
are directed Through The Eyes but if you
don't feel it it's very hard to fake it
so you have to put yourself in a
mindset a kind of an as if strategy as
William James said where you feel
confident where you feel strong you talk
yourself into that mood etc etc and you
let the nonverbals kind of communicate
themselves so you're
strong you're taking them to a place but
you're also attentive sensitive you're a
you're willing to reveal that slight
feminine streak in you but you're in
control you know what you're going to do
you know the exactly where you want to
take them and you of course you're
you're going to let see how things play
out you don't have everything planned
that would be very anti- seductive as
well but you have a sense of this is who
I am and this is how I'm going to
present myself the
flirtation is not in the words that you
say but it's in the looks that you give
in the energy that you that you radiate
right and the strength that you show and
and the fact that you're looking them in
the eye but not in a scary way kind of
thing and then mirroring behavior is is
extremely uh a sign of of the other
person is follow falling under your
spell so you you smile in a certain way
and you see if she responds in the same
way right and you kind of learn how to
kind of go with her energy in the moment
as well
but one thing you have to be care
careful of is you have to use who you
are so what's flirtatious for one guy is
going to work for the other guy you know
so if you happen to be good with
words you know I I have to admit I'm I'm
weak at a lot of things you know I
wasn't that quarterback in high school
Etc and all that stuff but I had a away
with words you know and I had a way of
kind of weaving a a a world with the
words that I said with the metaphors
with the things that I said and so I
would kind of use my flirtatious style
was to kind of envelop them in these
kind of images that I would create and
that worked for me sometimes it didn't
work because some women weren't
interested in that they wanted the
quarterback but for a lot of women that
that was my style what is your style I
don't know what it is but it has to fit
who you are I think that is very good
advice um the thing that I would put out
there is there the big click for me was
when I realized that I needed to have
absolutely no fear of loss and so going
into uh a situation you met them online
you guys have had some flirt flirtatious
exchanges they're one of the things
that's really anti-education
go ahead one thing you have to keep in
mind though is if the woman seems to be
resistant and then you just Wilt at that
moment you you you cut it off and you go
oh this isn't going to work man they are
so stupid you are such a bad Seducer
women are testing you often and by
they're showing you that maybe they're
not interested they might actually be
interested but they want to see are you
willing to pursue them are you willing
to deal with some obstacles in the way
you know are you willing to like you
know move past their resistance not
physically forcing them but if they
don't seem so receptive to you on that
first date that doesn't mean you have to
give up it just means give it a second
date and and show that you're you're
still interested in them is a very
powerful message it means I can deal
with maybe your kind of somewhat pissy
side or your sort of negative side or
your kind of pickiness you know I'm
still there I'm still interested okay
that shows that you're willing to jump
over this one hoop that I've set for you
so just immediately wilting is a bad
sign no agreed my advice would be if
somebody is in that situation somebody's
displaying something they don't like I
mean look I'm not going to say it at
everything that comes up but for the
most part I would try to be playful with
that yeah and if you if you can really
stay centered if you can be
somewhat
unflappable and what I always have said
about the way that I was with Lisa was I
was aggressively myself and so I wasn't
afraid of losing her now I still
strategic about the way that I packaged
myself like I said this is a game of
marketing you are going to be who you
really are but you need to bundle that
in a way that's going to communicate who
you are well and if I know that one of
the things that people are going to be
most attracted to is somebody that is
confident cool then I'm I need to to be
confident in who I am and also if you
really want to get people's
attention be counterintuitive be be
interesting like say things that they
couldn't have predicted that are real
they're true to who you are but if you
can find those things where it's like oh
wow I never thought about that that's
you're coming at something from an
oblique angle then it's like okay you're
not exchangeable I can't this isn't just
I'm trying on somebody that looks
different but is exactly the same as
everybody else it's like you're you one
have the confidence to say something
you're like I don't know how this is
going to land but it is true and
therefore I'm going to say it and the
way that I see dating is you're throwing
the bat symbol up in the sky you're not
trying to win the person over I mean
you're trying to seduce don't get me
wrong there's there's an agenda there
but you want to make sure you're
seducing the right person and so in the
beginning of this I'm just going to be
this is who I am packaged in a way that
is meant
to uh elicit a response from the right
person so I'm not going to make it hard
to be interested in who I am and all of
that but I'm going to be myself I'm
going to say things that are unexpected
this was the same Discovery I had with
interviewing was uh in the early early
days I did it was like my maybe fifth
interview and I did the whole interview
and at the end of the interview I said
uh hey do you mind if we start over I
want to film this again because I'm
either going to quit doing this because
I was bored out of my mind because I
wasn't asking the questions I really
wanted to ask I was asking the questions
I thought I was supposed to ask and now
I want to ask what I really care about
and he was a game and so we refilmed it
and that was the beginning of me
actually having a career as an
interviewer was when I was like I don't
care if this is the question people want
me to ask I'm going to ask the question
I'm actually interested in and bringing
out that kind of intrigue especially if
you can focus it on them so if I'm
asking you questions maybe other people
haven't asked from an angle people
haven't asked it or I have a follow-up
question that is surprising and shows
I'm really really paying attention I
actually care it'll get pretty
interesting pretty fast yeah I mean um a
couple things that I would add to that
first of all as I say in The Art of
Seduction any kind of moralizing judging
quality is very anti- seductive so
you're very tolerant you're very open
you're not you're not there to judge the
other person and if they make a comment
you don't want to go touch up on
politics Etc but just the sense that
you're it's a non-judgmental environment
is is very St because we live in a world
that's so partisan but the other thing
is so when we talk about interviews I've
done hundreds of these over the years
podcasters including yourself you're one
of my favorites thank you sir and I
could notice a difference between
interviewers the ones that come with a
preset agenda of questions not just an
opening question but a whole set of
questions and they're not really paying
attention to you and your answers and
they're they're kind of in their heads
and they're thinking about their next
question Etc
they make me uncomfortable and I don't
do as well but if the person is
interviewing me is in the moment they're
kind of responding they're alive they're
giving me you know body language verbal
accus their eyes and we're interacting
then I open up to them and then then
there's a nice flow it's a similar thing
between a man and a woman you're in the
moment I can't say that enough you're in
the moment you're not in your head going
does she like me am I going to have sex
with her tonight you know do I find her
that attractive you're in the goddamn
moment you're alive you're attuned
you're listening and I can tell you um
my wife has said this and I've known it
from other women before I met her is I
would listen very deeply and then I
would hear something that kind of
signaled to me a sign of something that
they were interested in or something
that said something about who they are
and then 4 hours later or the next day I
would bring it up again wrapped in my
own little way of wrapping things up and
think whoa you don't have no idea how
much that impresses a woman because it
says I was paying attention I was
listening to them and I and I brought
back what they said later is very
powerful so be in the moment don't be
thinking about your next question your
next step how you're going to you know
what you're going to be doing next but
be alive and be attentive and be in the
flow check out my intense conversation
with Patrick bed David about masculinity
to truly be free you have to be strong
enough to control your own life and many
men today simply do not qualify many of
you have been told the pursuit of power
is disgusting you shouldn't do it many
of you don't even have a clear
definition of what it means