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Language: en
we all live in the age of conspiracy and
it is your job to find as many
unfiltered angles as possible on the
truth so that you can triangulate what's
real and avoid getting lost in spin
that's why as we all March towards a
hyper divisive presidential election
I'll be bringing on more and more of the
people at the center of this drama and
my goal is to map out their thinking and
understand their base assumptions so I
know where they're trying to take us
from there hopefully we can all see a
wise path forward in that spirit I bring
you entrepreneur and former presidential
candidate VI ramaswami enjoy the
[Music]
Episode V ramaswami welcome to the show
it's good to be back dude for people
that don't know what you mean by back so
you and I filmed a much longer interview
that we're going to get to here in a
minute uh but given the Trump verdict we
both felt that it made sense to come in
and and tie that up in the longer
interview we talk about uh Trump we talk
about America values your purchase of
BuzzFeed all that stuff um but I I'm not
for Trump against Trump but even I had
an emotional reaction to the verdict
because it feels like people are uh
politicizing the justice system in a way
that makes me extremely nervous in terms
of the impact that it's going to have on
the voting public and so I want to start
there what do you think given your
tweets I assume you think this was a
political uh take down miscarriage of
justice but what do you think is going
to be the impact on the voting Public's
perception of our democracy and our
Justice
System look I think it's it's a pretty
dangerous precedent I have been pretty
public about what my view is on the
prosecution itself and I'm happy to get
into the legal meat of that if you're
interested I think for a number of
reasons this
was not a subtle case but an obvious
case of prosecutorial abuse and the
politicization of justice system I think
if you had imagined Joe Biden on trial
in Mississippi or Louisiana with the
same set of facts In Reverse where you
had a judge that had the other party
affiliation and their own daughter
raising funds off the trial as you had
in New York here you had a prosecutor
who ran for office on the promise of
going after Joe Biden I think the left
would be howling bloody murder here and
they would have a good point in that
case because even though I disagree with
what Biden stands for I don't think that
that's the way Justice should be carried
out yet that's exactly the way Injustice
was carried out here so I can go into
the legal basis for the case one of the
most appalling facts about this
conviction is not just that it's the
first time in US presidential history
that a former president and now a major
front runner for US president again was
convicted of a felony but what was most
remarkable is if you're going to have
that kind of historic conviction it
better be a black and white case and yet
the irony is the judges instru
instructions to the jury were literally
that the jury did not have to agree on
what the felony crime even was in order
to convict and I think that's appalling
I think that that's a danger to every
American now what does that mean for the
voting public there I have less strong
convictions right I know what my views
are on the facts I know what my views
are on the Integrity of the justice
system so My Views are set but my
predictions are softer but I'll give you
some of them since you asked anyway
is that I think this is going to have
the effect of actually softening and
winning o softening the perceptions of
and winning over a lot of black voters
to Trump I think a lot of black voters
have been for a long time telling both
sides hey guys the justice system is not
always as Fair as you portray it we have
had numerous experiences people in the
black community would say of justice
that was not carried out fairly in part
because of the basis of somebody's skin
color or the ZIP code where they were or
biases of police officers and now Donald
Trump is suffering an unjust system not
in the base of race but in the base of
political belief I think that that eye
openening event for a lot of people to
say that the justice system is not a
necessarily always a neutral or perfect
system is something that if Trump leans
into that message I think we'll actually
win the sympathies of a lot of black
voters who have not felt heard for a
very long time frankly by both parties
with the Republican Party included and I
think it's an especially important
opportunity for Trump because he
actually bucked the Republican Orthodoxy
and did something that Democrats had
long promised to do but never delivered
which was actually Criminal Justice
Reform which made sure that many of
those people who were locked up weren't
unjustly locked up for far longer
periods of time for crimes that were not
really proportionate to the magnitude of
punishment that they were deal and so
those two things I think actually go
together and especially combined that
with Trump's travels to the South Bronx
and other areas where traditional
Republican candidates haven't gone I
think it's a package to attract a lot of
minority voters and black voters in
particular I also think that a lot of
libertarian minded Americans race
independent but just ideology dependent
Libertarians who are deeply skeptical of
government overreach understand that the
politicization of the justice system is
the last straw and I think should should
and I think will be drawn to Trump as a
consequence of this politicization and
weaponization that's all that's all
really um logical and uh you know a sort
of you're up high looking down on
something with a logical view I'm way
more worried about an emotional reaction
um that you know for talking about uh
January 6 part two like how do voters
feel my my nightmare scenario is Trump
doesn't get elected and voters say yeah
obviously because this was a um a
complete manipulation of the Public's
view of Donald Trump and so the people
that believe in Donald that are his uh
base they are going to go nuts because
they will have a very easy thing to
point at which is the justice system was
manipulated against them this this
election was rigged people have been
saying that now for a while so do you
have any more visceral um concerns about
where this goes on Election Day look I
have a lot of concerns where this goes
for the future of the country we have
set a dangerous precedent now where the
party in power is able to use the tools
of prosecution to take the legs out from
its political opponents if you think
that's going to end with this particular
instance of going after Trump think
again this is the beginning of I think a
downward slide in this country unless we
all frankly across the political
Spectrum step up and say enough with it
we're done with it and actually
restoring a neutral justice system so
it's not just this year I worry about I
I worry about the future of the country
because if you think about one thing
that the United States of America
depends on for our own rule of law and
our own Democratic way of life it is an
impartial Judicial System once we lose
that I don't think we have a country
left so that's what I think is at stake
now do I think that that could manifest
itself even in this election and public
distrust of this electoral process
absolutely I mean the whole system has
basically said we don't trust you the
voters to decide who you're actually
voting for there have been headlines in
the last several years saying the
problem with democracy is the voters so
it's not like this is a novel idea the
people who are wielding the keys in the
managerial class and that we talk about
in the longer form episode when you and
I were together is that they're
skeptical of Voters ability to
self-govern and this is is one of the
tools they're using to say that we don't
want you the voters to take the risk of
reelecting Donald Trump and so we're
going to use prosecution as a substitute
to make sure that doesn't happen that's
going to have drastic consequences at a
moment where we're already skating on
thin ice as a country so if your
question for me is am I worried
about am I worried about this country
being on the precipice right now and
this potentially pushing us over the
edge or too darn close to it I am I'm
deeply worried about it which is why I
think it's important to be vocal at the
same time I'm optimistic that the
American people who they are trying to
dup aren't going to be so easily duped
either and that's the outcome I'm
rooting for and it's part of why I've
taken the extra time and effort and and
pain to be as vocal as I can and
explaining this not just to the people
who agree with us because that's beside
the point you we don't need more people
preaching to their own choir but maybe
to audiences that aren't as plugged in
May understand a headline and say oh
well I don't want to elect a criminal to
be the president pres of the United
States yeah but if that criminal isn't
actually criminal but the judicial
system just went through a sham to teach
you that he was to delude you into
believing something that wasn't true
then that's something that actually will
hopefully ignite a sense of purpose in
people who care about saving our country
whether or not they're Republican what
do you think about Trump's take he said
this is a paraphrase but he said um I
don't know that the American people are
going to stand for this meaning his
guilty verdict and that there is going
to be a Breaking Point at some point or
there may be a break breaking point at
some point How would how are you reading
that
statement at face value I mean it's the
basic fact that our country depends on
an impartial judicial system and if they
can do it to Trump they can do it to
anybody so I do think it's dangerous I
don't use that word lightly I am deeply
concerned about where we are as a
country right now this is not some
ordinary election where we're debating
tax policy this is an election where the
basic rules of the road are on the line
it is kind of 1776 moment in this
country or dare I say maybe even a bit
of an 1860 moment in this country and I
don't want us to get there but I think
that is what's at stake right now and
it's interesting because Joe Biden ran
on the promise of unifying the country I
think he's badly failed to deliver it if
Joe Biden really wanted to unite this
country and keep his campaign pledges
there's one way he could do it he could
actually step up and say you know what I
disagree like hell with Donald Trump on
a lot of policies and I think he would
make a poor president but I'm still
going to Pardon him because this should
not be done through the justice system
and by the way social media platforms go
ahead and at least lift the bans on my
opponent because the American people
deserve to hear from my opponent even if
I disagree with what he says I will
fight for his right to say it that's how
you unite a country and Joe Biden has
refused to do it so he campaigned on
uniting the country he has a clear path
more than any president in US history I
believe certainly since Lincoln to step
up and actually unite the country and
he's squandering it
and I think that that's sad it's deeply
it's deeply concerning to me as an
American it's deeply disappointing to me
as a citizen of this country that's
something Joe Biden could do now before
we get a bunch of uh you know half wit
legal scholar wannabes that say oh no
Biden can't pardon Trump because this is
a State Crime we can go into that bit if
you want actually the State Crime here
depends on the existing of an of an
existing underlying felony charge in
order for the crime to be charged as a
felony so so I want to get lost in the
the nitty-gritty of the law but I think
that that social media I know a lot of
social media people will be like oh I
know the law and Biden can't pardon for
a State Crime just let's just stipulate
it for now the state conviction depended
on an underlying Federal charge so Biden
I believe actually could pardon him I've
made this argument in the pages of the
Wall Street Journal and elsewhere so go
check that out if you're interested but
again forget the plumbing of it my point
is Biden has a historic opportunity to
unite this country he is squandering it
and dare I said I think Donald Trump in
the Republican party now has an
opportunity and an obligation to be the
party that actually stands for National
Unity at a moment where we deserve it
and I think Trump is up for that
challenge in a way how does he do that
in this particular moment yeah look I
think part of it is demonstrating that
he actually cares about National Unity I
know him I know he does I think one of
the things that it's easier to see if
you know him but it's harder for the
public to see is he deeply cares about
National Unity but I think his ability
to gesture towards that to even speak of
it as an important value to him I think
will alone impact voters at a moment
we're we're longing for a leader who
believes that we're one nation I mean I
think there's a basic question on the
table in this election this year
2024 are we actually one
nation like are we in a in a in a
literal sense not a literal sense in a
near literal sense in a meaningful sense
are we actually one country or aren't we
right is there one America right now or
are there multiple Americas are there
two Americas is there a Democrat America
a republican America Maga America and a
progressive America a Black America and
a white America if you read the pages of
most major newspapers or turn on the
media so you're led to believe if you
watch Modern partisan politics that's
what it looks like to many Americans and
I think that's a basic question that's
why I said we're in a 1776 or dare I say
even an 1860 style moment I think a lot
of people would pause today if you ask
them that question to think about
it in a way that ought to concern all of
us I don't think that they would have
paused to think about
that 15 20 years ago but I think today
if you if you ask actually ask somebody
like in a real sense are we actually one
country that's what's on the table I
believe we are I believe we're in our
last window where that can be true if we
step up and actually speak to the ideals
that unite us As Americans I think one
of the things I've enjoyed hearing Trump
say on the campaign Trail and I've
obviously spent some time with him in
the last several months and and this is
a direction where I think he should be
going more but you know leave it at that
but I love the way he's approaching some
of his rhetoric about success success
will be our Vengeance that's a line he's
used several times which I love success
is unifying I think Donald Trump does in
his heart care about nationally but even
if he lets just the people of this
country see that that alone would have a
palpable
effect all right we definitely go into
deeper detail in that particular point
in the longer interview I know you got
to bounce now brother thank you for
taking the time and uh everybody at home
enjoy the rest of the
interview when did we stop being America
1.0
H it was not a moment in time it was a
gradual
process that I think
began with Lyndon Johnson's Great
Society you familiar with this yes okay
so the Great Society was what I view as
one of the great misnomers of American
political history where in the name of
helping a particular segment of the
population the set of policies adopted
actually had a destructive effect in 360
directions a lot of this is what the
progenitors are for the modern welfare
state but this isn't just a point about
government redistribution or monetary
effects of that on our debt and
otherwise it's deeper than that because
it was the rise of a new philosophy that
said that we the people could not be
trusted to self-govern or live our lives
the way we want but instead it's going
to take an elite group of specialized
technocrats and benevolent dictator-like
leaders that look after your best
interests and I think that's really was
when you think about the America 1.0
what what did that represent that was
our national founding that was a group
of founding fathers who said that for
better or worse I'm going to make my own
decisions and self-govern not to be
governed by some Monarch on the other
side of the Atlantic who thinks he's
acting in my best interest and where we
saw that change was the beginning of the
Great Society was not just the
redistributionist policies and the
welfare and Nanny State policies but it
was also the beginning of really
legitimizing this administrative state
right the idea of unelected bureaucrats
that would enact a lot of regulations
that we the people never passed but to
actually serve the interests as they saw
it of we the people and I think a lot of
the conservative backlash to this misses
the essence of what's going on right the
conservative Instinct initially is
that you know what we don't want a
government that tyrannically overreaches
and is hostile to me but that misses the
point where the people who are
perpetrating it don't think of
themselves as hostile to you they think
of themselves as actually looking after
you and that I think is the ultimate
betrayal of America 1.0 is the idea that
you can't be trusted to self-govern you
can't be trusted to self-determine the
course of your own life but instead you
and your life require somebody else to
look after what's best for you that's
where we really I think got to this you
know I would say what would what would
you say um oh put a descriptor on it the
2.0 version that we live in today okay
so the I if you say Nanny state that
sounds terrible but if you say that a
government's job is to look after the
people in the state then it's like okay
I get where we're going you say things
like no nobody's going to be left behind
um those things feel good they make
people feel protected so if it is at
least good in theory why is it bad in
practice yes so I don't think it's good
in theory I think that you you're right
that certain descriptors can make it
sound good but I don't think it is the
idea of a centralized body telling you
that you're going to live your life in a
different way and using coer of force to
do it I don't think is good in theory I
think it is bad even in theory now I
think it can be made to sound good
because we all have internal
vulnerabilities right each one of us has
certain insecurities certain areas where
we have our strengths but our weaknesses
and we want to be able to make sure that
that were taken care of in the cases
where those weaknesses go bad that's at
the heart of insurance right the whole
idea of insurance forget it whether it's
government or private sector but the
concept of insurance is the idea that
certain times things go badly sometimes
that's out of your control even when it
is in your control part of it is you
didn't inherit all of the
vulnerabilities or failures that you
have as a person you insure against that
against a community of people who also
have other vulnerabilities but you pull
that to say that hey as a community it's
in everyone's self-interest to come
together to say that nobody is Left
Behind well I think that's a beautiful
thing when you're talking about freely
consenting adults getting together and
looking at what's in their best interest
but without denying their own agency I
think when you create a government
structure that is instead in charge of
determining what is or isn't in your
interest you actually forfeit that
agency itself so the idea of in a team
or in a family unit let's just start
with that it's it's a good organizing
principle to start with
Aristotle started there he thinks of the
family as more fundamental unit of
governance than the state most great
countries through human history most
great actual great societies have been
built the same way well in a family unit
the same way is you say that no family
member left behind that's the way that
you know I would like to be a member of
my family we're not going to leave each
other behind because that's just how we
do it we're a family unit and that's who
we are not because there's going to be
coercive force that my wife or I apply
to each other or you know to adult adult
to grown children parent children
relationships a little bit different but
you're talking about even a family unit
of grown adults you're not talking about
necessarily a parent coercing an adult
child to do something my relationship
with my parents or my relationship with
my kids when they're grown up is not
going to be based on coercion but it's
just based on the idea that as a family
we look after each other's best
interests because that's where our
commitments are I see the same spirit
that we're actually missing at a
national level amongst citizens right we
as Citizens are also in a relationship
with each other and I do think part of
what we're missing in our country is
that sense of civic duty that we owe to
one another and that we owe to our
nation and in some ways that our
politicians who we elect owe back to us
and so I believe it's not an accident
that it's precisely at a point in our
history where the politicians who we
send to Washington DC and the
bureaucrats who write the regulations
are no longer behaving as though they
owe their sole moral duty to our own
citizens that our own citizens have lost
their sense of civic duty to our nation
I think those two things go together but
that idea of a duty-based
commitment I believe can be and should
be totally separate from the idea of a
government using coercive Force to tell
you what's best for you and that's
what's at the heart of the modern
administrative State that's what's at
the heart of the modern federal
government in the post Linden Johnson
Great Society era that we're in and so
if we're going back to how do we
eradicate that root disease and really I
think Del deliver a lot of The
Liberation that we hunger for in our
modern American moment it's to undo that
premise the idea that we the people
create a government that is no longer
accountable to us but who is responsible
for us I think that's the root
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off okay I there's an interesting
tension in there for me in that I think
people especially in a time as um
tumultuous as the one that we're living
through right now people really will
make some very extraordinary tradeoffs
between safety and freedom and when I
think
about the reality on the ground of when
you have personal responsibility as a
driving Factor when it's like hey you're
going to get this from your local family
your community your church your whatever
those are going to be the people that
pick you up when you fall down some
people really will get left behind some
people will literally die in the streets
and how do we deal with that
cogently yeah
so look I think we let's start from a
premise of basic concern for the Dignity
of every person okay now let's ask
ourselves are those policies that we are
adopting in the name of helping such
persons actually helping them or not
right because I think there's a separate
question of whether an ideal State of
Affairs is ever possible if God created
a world
in which there is human
suffering it
should at least cause us to pause to say
whether a government can eliminate all
forms of that human suffering we should
at least ask the question and suggest as
a premise that there's three
possibilities for what the government
action could do it could do nothing it
could make that human suffering worse in
the name of trying to attempt to help
that human suffering or it could make
that human suffering better it could do
in principle those are your three
options I think the evidence would
suggest particular ly in the post Lindon
Johnson Great Society view of the world
the post woodro Wilson administrative
State technocracy bureaucratic vision of
the world the very actors who have I
think in some ways earnestly set out to
make the lives of the disempowered
better what they've done is actually
made make the lives of that very
disempowered class worse and they' made
the lives of everyone worse in the
process I'll give you a good example of
this look at Family formation and the
rates of family formation in the United
States of America for the very groups
the demographic groups that the Great
Society was supposed to actually help
and I'll say why am I asking the
question about family formation it's a
relatively arbitrary variable you could
say to focus on and it's a fair question
here's why if you grow up in a two-
parent household you are more likely to
graduate from high school I think like
eight times more grad likely to graduate
from high school you are 8 to 10 times
less likely to end up in poverty or in
prison if you look at every kind of
outcome for prosperity and well-being
health happiness it's off the charts for
people who grow up in a stable two-
parent household does that mean you
can't achieve those metrics just because
you didn't of course not but I'm talking
about at a population scale no doubt
about it from economic to happiness to
wellbeing to avoiding crime to actually
living a free and prosperous life
unambiguously better for kids of every
skin color this goes across race grows
across gender boundaries goes across all
demographic boundaries you are better
off growing up up in a stable two family
environment so then you look at the
incentives created by lynon Johnson's
Great Society what has that done over
the course of the last 60 years the very
populations in this particular case
there was a particular vision of lifting
up black populations in the United
States that was one of the premises of
the Great Society it has actually had
the impact of reducing and degrading
family formation family information
rates were much higher in Black
communities this is true for all
communities but especially true in Black
communities in the 1950s and 1960s than
they are today and that is no accident
that you've actually seen relative
economic stagnation in Black prosperity
in America over that same 60-year period
as you've seen increased prosperity in
other demographic groups so in the name
of helping a particular Community why is
that they create the incentives where
single mothers can actually get more
money now by not having a man in the
house than by having a man in the house
even though that incentive was created
in the name of helping that actual
family right well put yourself in the
shoes of a single woman growing up with
a child in the house you know what I'd
rather be married to Uncle Sam than to
some guy who's not quite bringing in the
same income that that Federal
government's giving me but that creates
the disincentive to have that man in the
house to Aspire to fill those gaps in
the first place so I don't blame people
who respond to incentives but I do blame
a government and a broad set of
Institutions around that government that
have created those perverse incentives
I'm not going to go in the direction of
questioning the motives of many of those
individuals you could do that in certain
cases and cynically I think there are
certain actors who view the whole thing
as a laughing Affair there's some
version of the world which lynon Johnson
might have been one of those people
actually if you listen to a lot of the
closed door conversations that he had
and his attitudes towards black
Americans it's not a Rosy picture
relative to the so-called public
policies that he proclaimed to espouse
in the name of helping them but put the
question of intentions to one side even
if you assume that most people who are
engaging in this project have basically
benevolent intentions I mean King George
thought of himself as having benevolent
intentions that these subjects not
citizens but these subjects could not be
trusted to do what's in their own best
interest they require me to be able to
make sure that they don't in the modern
sense of the world burn their Planet
down and burn out burn down the the
environment in which they live by
spawning modern climate change or fight
themselves to Pieces by creating in
qualities they don't know they're going
to do that they require me as a
benevolent dictator it's not what King
George was concerned about but I'm
translating to the kinds of concerns
that King George would have in the
present it is a kind of benevolence
really that spawned this type of
overgrowth of both the nanny State as
well as the administrative state but you
asked me when we went off track of who
we were the first time around what made
America great the first time what made
America great the first time is
embracing the spirit that we as a people
are free that you're not riding some
tectonic plate of group identity but
that you are endowed by your creator
with your own free will to achieve
anything you want in your life with your
own agency and hard work and dedication
okay maybe not anything you want in your
life because every one of us has
different god-given gifts but at least
that you get to maximize your god-given
gifts even if they're different than my
god-given gift or anybody else's
god-given gift in this room each of them
is different
but we live in a country where you can
achieve the maximum of that god-given
potential without any government
standing in your way even if that means
that that government isn't exactly the
party that lifts you up to achieve it
either might be your family might be
your own experience it might be your own
Community it might be your pastor it
might be your congregation it might be
all of those things but it's not going
to be some government that lifts you up
but it certainly isn't going to be some
government that stands in your way
either you could call that a libertarian
view in a certain sense I am you know I
am a a Libertarian in in a certain sense
of that word I've identified as
libertarian for much of my life I think
I don't call myself a Libertarian
anymore because I care about more
questions than just the relationship of
the state to the individual but I think
America was in a deep sense libertarian
at its founding that we're the pioneers
and the Explorers the unafraid the
people who could accomplish the maximum
of what we're
able are there going to be is that is
that is there any such thing as a
perfect state of the world when that
world is comprised of Fallen human
beings like us no I don't think that
there is such a thing as a state of
perfection on this Earth but the idea
that a government striving to create
that through coercion is going to create
a better society as a result I think has
been a concept that we've disproven time
and again over the course of history and
that doesn't mean that we should be
callous or have disregard to people who
struggle to the contrary I think what
we've done with the over growth of a
federal Nanny state is we have crowded
out the fellow instincts of empathy and
compassion and respect and dignity that
we confer to one another through other
modes of community Through family
through local through local networks
that we've in some ways lost and
degraded in the context of a government
that has played that role instead
there's a really famous quote by uh
Vladimir Lenin not not History's
Greatest man for sure but the quote's
pretty powerful he's an interesting guy
to
say Lord yeah uh but his quote was give
me just one generation of Youth and I'll
change the entire world uh he wasn't
wrong he however pointed his generation
of Youth at a set of values that was
just absolutely destructive to Russia
and cost Untold millions of lives yeah
um what I hear you talking about now now
is a set of values it's tradeoffs it's
there is no perfect world there's no as
Thomas Soul said there are no Solutions
there only trade-offs
so if you had a generation of Youth what
values would you point them at such that
you don't have to rule by Fiat from the
top down that it will actually grow up
from the
bottom so I think the beauty of the
American founding this goes to the
answer to your question is that there's
a tension in there cuz I'm going to
point you to two values that in
principle are in tension with one
another but actually that tension is a
beautiful thing on one hand it is that
you are an individual with total agency
and free will to determine what you make
of your life the number one person who's
in power to determine what you achieve
in your life is you I I don't think that
should be a controversial thing to say I
think that that is it's extremely
controversial I don't think it should be
controversial
I'm with you on that so in fact I think
delivering any message other than this
to a child who is understanding their
own agency I think is actually is
actually uh morally wrong I think it is
a form of psychological slavery to tell
a kid that what you're able to achieve
in your life that there is someone else
other than you who's the biggest
determinant of that that's what we teach
kids today but my number one message
you're talking about teaching the kids
of the Next Generation the simplest
principle without any fancy langu
language attached to it is the number
one person who determines what you will
achieve in your life is
you period it's not a government it's
not somebody else's invisible power that
they're exercising over you I'm not
saying that those things don't exist but
the number one if you're going to rank
order the Thousand factors that are
going to determine what you achieve in
your life unambiguously for every one of
you the number one determinant of what
you achieve will be you and your own
actions and your own choices that you
make that's number
one the second principle I told you
there's two and they go
together is that as you do it you are
still in a relationship with your fellow
citizens I'm going to talk about this at
a national level because you asked about
it in the context of a Nation so I'll
answer it at a national level you're in
a relationship with your citizens with
your fellow citizens that is Co equal at
its core that you may go on to achieve
more or less than your neighbor as
measured by the numbers of green pieces
of paper or the size of your house or
the level of a claim that you get in the
modern world the number of social media
followers you have whatever the artifice
of the generation may
be regardless of the green pieces of
paper or equivalent social media
followers or whatever metric you care
about regardless of the material
differences between you and your
neighbor you are still fundamentally in
a relationship with each other as
co-equal Citizens you are equal at your
core in the way that matters you're
equal in your moral worth and that you
have a civic duty a duty to each of your
fellow citizens that they have back to
you regardless of what each of you go on
and Achieve so I think that that's at
the heart of what it means to be an
American actually is both of those
things on one hand it's individualism on
the other hand it's Unity
individualism and unity capitalism and
democracy right 1776 includes both of
those things it's it's a fun historical
fact that 1776 was both the year that
the Wealth of Nations was written it's
Adam Smith's seminal text that at least
provides widely viewed as providing the
clearest statement from Modern free
market capitalism same year as the
Declaration of Independence written by
Thomas Jefferson that led to the birth
of the American Republic so those two
things in tension with each other right
individualism and unity capitalism and
democracy but that tension rests within
each of us there's two parts of each of
us the part of us that's a that's a
self-interested individual and a
capitalist the part of each of us that's
a citizen with a civic duty to our
country and I don't view those as
contradictory but if you're asking me
what two values would I impart to the
Next Generation to really create a
country
that revives the principles of our
founding and maybe even goes far further
than we ever have those would be the
both of those principles I think are
equally important to impart is that the
number one determinant of what you
achieve is you and you should be
unconstrained in achieving it but number
two is at every step of the way no
matter what you do or don't achieve
we're all still co-equal in the most
important way in our moral worth as
Citizens and we have to regard each
other and behave towards one another
accordingly that's what I would say okay
uh I agree very much however there is a
there's a change that happened maybe
because of lynon Johnson's uh Great
Society but you have a philosophical
change in this country where um by way
of my own personal um collision with the
change in ideology happened when I wrote
the the blog article that I thought
would change the most people's lives and
I honestly when I put it out I thought
people were just going to be like bro
you just changed my life I can't thank
you enough and uh it triggers everybody
whenever I talk about this but this is
the true article that I wrote If you are
hit by a drunk driver it's all your
fault and the goal the title of the
article very interesting and keep in
mind the whole time I'm writing I'm like
oh man I'm giving you the secrets of the
universe you're going to love this going
to change your life because what I'm
trying to remind people one obviously I
would not reuse fault if I were going to
rewrite this because that's just where
everybody derailed what I'm trying to
get people to understand is you can make
a different choice and get a different
outcome and if you're always looking at
life through the lens of solutions like
oh I can do a different thing and get a
different thing you can remain in
control of your life so for me the
reason that the idea of
self-determination yeah should be the
thing that you are embracing with every
fiber of your being the reason I think
that that's effective is it puts you in
the driver's seat now the bad news is
there are going to be wildly Divergent
outcomes different people are better at
different things and if you lack in some
area you just may never be successful
but what I want to understand is at this
moment in time I would say that the
vision for I should be taken care of
what are you talking about like we need
to redistribute wealth like this is
grotesque that some people can get so
rich and other people are literally
going to die in the streets here are
these two rich people talking about how
other people like need to remember that
they can have self-determination
self-determination like everything in
the world is messed up I can't afford a
house uh I'm in crippling debt from my
student loans and I can't discharge it
and when Joe Biden tries to pay it off
you guys stop him at every turn like
it's just the the whole world is [ __ ]
and you're telling me to go make
something of myself that message has
captivated not one not two we're talking
three maybe four generations of people
and I want to know why is that so
compelling and why is it so hard to get
people to recognize from where I'm
sitting if you want to be a superhero
you need only adopt personal
responsibility like it's the most
liberating empowering useful just
fanatically great thing you could ever
take on but that sounds ridiculous to
young people well I think you got to
acknowledge the powerful argument for
the other side which is sometimes you do
get hit by a drunk driver and it's not
your fault sometimes you do get Swept
Away by a tornado right and your house
crashes to the ground and people die in
natural disasters or or other forms of
accidents that aren't their fault all
the time so that runs in the face of the
idea that the only determinant of your
own success or well-being is you but
that's not what I said in the in the
very beginning that's why I try to frame
it exactly
precisely of the thousands of factors
that will determine what you are able to
achieve for yourself in your life the
number one most important factor is you
and I think if we acknowledge that truth
I don't like to Pedal fake optimism I
don't like to Pedal fake self-help
doctrines just for the sake of you
believing that's going to make you
better off it's also going to be got to
be grounded in truth right and so is it
true that if you deliver that message to
people you said you find this compelling
and I don't disagree with you that it's
going to motivate them to do more great
it could do that but I don't believe in
perpetuating that message just because
it's going to have a positive effect
it's also has to to be true so do I
think it is true that you are the only
person who has any say in what you
achieve in life and that you can achieve
anything you want with your own hard
work and dedication no I don't think
that's true might that be a motivating
message it could be a motivating message
for the time being but it's going to be
short-term motivating because pretty
soon you're going to learn into you're
going to run into obstacles in your life
that teach you that that's just not true
when I was a kid I wanted to play in the
NBA I'm six feet tall now I guess there
some people who are six feet tall make
it to the NBA but I also don't have a
lot of other skill sets required to
compete at the highest level of
basketball that no matter how much I
worked was never going to happen for
basketball or even for tennis or any
other sport well you know each of us has
different god-given gifts and that's
just a fact and no matter how hard I
worked or how dedicated I was that
wasn't going to happen there are other
people who inherit genetic diseases or
diseases of other kinds that they that
through no fault of their own will limit
how long or how comfortably they're able
to live their
life that's just not in your control but
here's what I will say is each of us has
our own unique god-given
talents and nobody can stop you from
achieving the maximum of your god-given
potential or at least you are the person
who has the most agency over that and I
actually think that that with that
modification I find that to be a more
inspiring message because that's
actually true it's I think it's when you
think about it it's incontrovertible
what other factors is going to be more
influential on that than you especially
at the level of a popul
there isn't there isn't one more than
that so now now we're talking about that
being true why do people find that
inspiring it's because it's true
actually now today is there a part of
each of us that still you know has an
addictive tendency right do do you do
you have that drink of alcohol for an
alcoholic because he thinks it's
actually better for him while he's
drinking it no I don't think so do you
think that spending that extra hour of
time at 11:00 before you go to bed um
scrolling through social media is
necessarily good for you are you doing
that because think that's actually
better for you or you're doing it just
because it's a thing that you feel
through impulse compelled to do we're
Fallen human beings we're not Gods so in
that same sense if you are offered some
level of if a drug addict offered
cocaine is that something is saying yes
to that good for you just because you do
end up saying yes no it's not and so I
think what I see with the modern
government is we're showering cocaine on
a bunch of cocaine addicts claiming that
it's better for them because that's what
they're clamoring to want when in fact
that's not better for the very people
you're purporting to help and I think
you can separate both of those things
that's the way I look at
it uh so I think let me see how quickly
I can set the table for what I really
think is going on so I think that from
an evolutionary standpoint it is simply
true that the world is going to break
into what we'll roughly call right and
left uh I'll Define them quickly on if
if you're going to create a species that
passes on its information through
culture then you know that the organism
as a collective is the thing that is our
best safety it's the way that we move
forward we're not the strongest fastest
sharpest claw anything like that uh so
our ability to function together in
gigantic numbers flexibly is the thing
that we're obscenely good at and why
we're the the number one Predator the
world has ever seen okay so I'm nature
how do I you can use God whatever God
set a thing in motion to give cohesion
to the group uh a break right and left
on the left this is about compassion I
want to make sure that nobody's left
behind I want to make sure that people
are looked after and cared for I want to
make sure that I'm contributing to the
group super important because if you're
not contributing to the group then
you're not going to have group cohesion
okay on the right uh you're basically
addressing from an evolutionary
standpoint the game theoretic reality
that if you are never going to leave
anybody behind you're going to get
freeloaders and so if there's nobody to
combat the freeloaders you get such a
Paras load on the society that it also
falls apart so you need this Dynamic
tension between the left and the right
and if either one of them gets out of
balance you get pathology now right now
I see massive pathology on the left
we've become so obsessed with the idea
of nobody left behind that getting
wealthy is evil we are in the grips of a
set of ideas that I think don't yield
results and worst of all we don't have a
value that mandates that we look at the
results to say are we moving in the
right direction and even if we did have
that we wouldn't agree on what results
we ought to be striving for and so and
then one last piece I'll put in this
these ideas are extremely complicated
and very nuanced and it is ridiculously
difficult for people to um think through
these problems and now be
unintentionally inflammatory but this is
just true from where I'm sitting uh
intellect plays a role and this is how
you get the idea of the elites there are
some ideas that are so complicated uh
take modern monetary Theory it it is
financial suicide and yet you get a lot
of people that go to B for it
now how do you as an average person
think through the complexities of
monetary policy you don't you're going
to have to Outsource that to somebody
there are going to be a group of Elites
that are
very happy to take up that Banner be
don't worry Timmy I'm going to think
through this for you and all you have to
do is Vote for This candidate all right
that is the very tip of an
excruciatingly large Iceberg but when
you have the the need for dynamic
tension between people who want to
support the group and you have people
that want to stand up for your
individual rights and you need to take
personal responsibility and do your
thing but that both of them tend towards
uh um pathology when unchecked by the
other but you're living in an
algorithmically driven world where each
of them only sees their own side how do
we disseminate the values that you're
talking about in a way where we can
actually
either not either where we can meet in
the middle where we long to hold each
other in that Dynamic tension yeah it's
it's a beautiful Fring I
think I think there's a couple things I
would say um one
is the punchline of how you get to the
answer that you just talked about is two
things one is I I don't think that there
are necessarily Just Two Types of People
I think that that impulse actually
exists if we're willing to admit it
within each of us I think a lot of
people on as you put it right or the
right you could call it classically
conservative
folks will embrace the individualism
side the rugged individual the rugged
capitalist but without admitting that
they also hunger to be part of something
bigger than themselves that's where a
lot of their patriotis that's where
their patriotic instincts come from
right why do a lot of people who have
such impulses also have their own
children or themselves who have served
in the military along the way that's not
explained by just the mentality of how
do I just achieve the maximum while
minimizing freeloading right that that
that behavior pattern can't be explained
and I similarly think that a lot of
people who still worry about who who
worry a lot about Collective well-being
still have individual Ambitions that go
beyond just the collective and so I
think that instinct actually doesn't
just exist within a society I think it
exists within parts of each of us
ourselves now how do you actually that's
that's an observation which I would
which would be my framing would be
slightly different than the evolutionary
split between the between the two camps
soety as you frame your answer one thing
to hold in your mind is you must explain
what I see right any theory has to
account for the world that I actually
have before me um so either challenge me
that these two sides don't go
pathological and I mean I can pick a
society and I will tell you whether they
broke pathological right or pathological
left or whether they're currently
walking that Dynamic tension um do you
agree that even though they're rough
approximations and I totally
a spectrum
of u