Kind: captions
Language: en
12 rules for life were hey I see you
suffering I see nobody's talking to you
let me give you some simple rules that
will really help you out then you go on
your own cross carrying Journey coma
illness crazy town and you come back
with the Deathly Hallows version of now
I'm going to give you these the
mythology and I'm going to tell you
exactly what you wrestle with to learn
what Spirit not only lives inside you
currently What Spirit should live inside
of you all of the human experiences
already been thought through I can't
give it to you in a bunch of simple
packages of the rules for life because
those will become dead wood fast I've
got to get you into the thing there is a
reason you titled this book we who
wrestle with God and not what you can
learn from God that that would have been
a title more people would have
understood but there's obviously
something to this idea of wrestling with
living ideas making it personal figuring
out what your relationship is with this
stuff when when when when when Jacob is
wrestling with God that's
worship that's that's true worship
that's why he he's awarded the name
Israel he's the leader of the chosen
people because he wrestles with
God
so that's
uh Mana for the
suffering because it means that if
you're
genuinely suffering then you're God's
there in your
grasp right there with you that's a good
way of thinking about it in the
wrestling
um Socrates was a
wrestler
literally right
and he was he was a very powerfully
built person and he wrestled before he
was a philosopher it's the same thing
and everyone thing is about the chosen
people of Israel everyone wrestles with
God now the question is you know in what
Spirit should you wrestle with God and I
would say
um remember who you're wrestling with
that's what job that's what God tells
job when he reminds him
that you know God was there at the
beginning of the time beginning of time
um defeating Leviathan fashioning the
world remember who you're wrestling with
have a little
humility or
L plenty enough to strip you of your
dead
wood right and if you're all Deadwood
then the fire of God looks like
hell can I get you to read something
that you said these are your words
verbatim this is from your Arc speech
this was when I felt like okay I
actually really understand what he's
doing now uh it starts there with the
muscle emojis uh and just goes to the B
you read it out loud yeah I think it's
better in your voice cuz this this for
everybody listening this is part of the
speech he gave at the ark
conference we're so
foolish we regard those
propositions religious propositions as
something approximating primitive
superstitions when in fact they're the
most brilliant intuitions into the
fundamental structure of reality that
have ever been offered we predicated our
civilization on those
presuppositions and look at it it's not
so bad we've brought wealth and plenty
to billions of people around the world
we've been struggling uphill properly
and if we were wise and faithful and
courageous and responsible we could
continue to spread that to everyone we
could eradicate absolute poverty we
could bring about a time of abundance
and opportunity for
everyone and we'll do that we can do
that if we Hoist the world on our
individual shoulders and operate
collectively in this harmonious Manner
and continue the struggle uphill toward
the city of God and that's the truth
it's the truth it's not some
Superstition it's not some primitive
defense against death anxiety it's not
the opiate of the
people it's the call to Divine
responsibility and to the degree that
each of us acted it out in the confines
of our own life we do what I suggested
at the beginning of this conference
which is tilt the world toward heaven
and Away From Hell
yeah that's that's all
right amazing it hit me very hard when I
first heard it I don't believe in God
how do I come to what does p say about
that when people say that he says I
don't believe in the same God you don't
believe
in do you think are you struggling to
find your way yes is it an honest
struggle yes that's the
belief it's not a statement religious
belief is not a statement about
facts it's not a scientific theory this
is why the enlightenment is is done that
that was wrong that isn't what it is
it's a struggle it's the moral struggle
or you could say maybe more
clearly see you say you don't believe
but
what you mean is you can't reconcile
your conceptions with your intuitions
really and that is the modern
predicament because you do you believe
that what happened in oswit was wrong
yes okay well then you know you've
established one poll of the of the
belief in Divinity you've just
established the malevolent pole and that
means the benevolent pole
is ill conceptualized still implicit
that's it still implicit that's what God
is that's what God is in in the belly of
the whale is implicit still implicit but
that doesn't mean it's not there called
or not called God is there that was Carl
Yung The Carving over his the castle he
built with his own two
hands it's there you just don't know it
but you know to some degree because
you're struggling and you're struggling
away from owitz let's say that's good
you great you know the person running
away from hell is also running towards
heaven now maybe your pathway would be a
little straighter if you knew a little
bit more about heaven but away is
something out of hell is something out
of hell towards what there's the next
question I suppose Out of Hell towards
what towards what toward toward a
neutral a neutral normality or or upward
away from hell up Jacob's Ladder towards
the highest possible
Heights that's the dwelling place of the
eternally uniting Spirit that's a good
way of thinking about it that's Jacob's
Ladder and where does it end I don't
know if it does end it it disappears
into the
Heights and what's at the top something
that recedes when you approach
it I come at everything from a very
materialist standpoint
not everything I think everything not
the evil not your realization of the
reality of evil oh to me that there's no
in congruence there that that's just a
natur there was necessarily an in
congruence um interesting so for me
that's the same I come at that just
humans are algorithms and you have
algorithms that could lead you to evil I
get why in certain circumstances in a
truly a moral Universe where humans are
the creators of algorithms as well yeah
sort of there's look yeah sort of that's
right biology is uh is at play but
females select who they sleep with and
that has huge implications we all get to
invite ideas into our world so for sure
um well there's an order it's like I
think one of the ways of thinking good
thinking about it is that it's the same
as the dynamic between musical knowledge
and musical production in composers like
the composers are adhering to a set of
guidelines you would say they're they're
they're operating in accordance with a
certain order but they can produce an
endless literally endless proliferation
of forms and human beings are both of
those things they're they're the order
that gives rise
to gives rise to what is new and alive
but they're also the thing that is alive
they're both at the same time that's the
hero in in in relationship to the the
father of the king that's Osiris in
relationship to Horus well that's Horus
sorry Horus the Egyptian god in
relationship to Osiris we're both that's
partly why there's a trinitarian view in
Christianity so because there's a
there's a the father is like a structure
that's a way of thinking about it and
the Sun
is the sun is the Incarnation of that
structure and the spirit is the
intermediary between the two it's
something like that I'm trying to get
people to understand that they're having
a biological experience because I want
them to be able to predict the outcome
of their actions by understanding the
nature of their mind and the minds of
the people they're interacting with I
have a feeling you're doing exactly the
same thing through a different form of
encapsulated wisdom that wisdom being
the biblical Corpus how right does that
feel well the monotheistic hypothesis is
that everything meets so I don't have
any problem with the evolutionary
biologist for example well once we sort
out our theological presuppositions and
our biological presuppositions they'll
be the same thing yes oh yes you can see
that that that convergence is already
happening that's already happening in
many many ways there's there's a
tremendous concordance I would say
between the ethos that's laid out in the
biblical writings and the the uh what
would you say the analysis of reciprocal
altruism
so and you know Brett Weinstein is
moving rapidly down that road for
example in his conceptualization of the
spirit that organizes human individuals
and and societies so do you think what
they're discovering is that the
narrative structure and the just Tim
tested way that these stories have been
passed on uh into Our
Generation Um prove that that's just the
best encap ation of that wisdom in a way
that people can use in their own lives
yeah well sure sure you could you could
almost think about that as by definition
I
mean the stories in the biblical Corpus
are the ones that burn themselves into
our imagination and memories well why
well because they have a concordance
with that structure the stories this is
where Dawkins would have gone with the
idea of meme if he would have pushed it
eventually the memes that best match
themselves to the structure of our
psyche are the ones we conserved yes
obviously how could it possibly be any
different how could it possibly be any
different than that obviously that's the
case that obviously assumes a base
assumption that you will react the most
strongly to the things that are most
true if you don't have that base
assumption you won't that won't be
obvious to you You' be like it's not
real therefore it's [ __ ] and you
will completely discredit the emotional
respons yes yes I because if you take a
Sam Harris or Rich you do that when
you're confused conceptually though too
and that can block your vision
so and and that's what's that's part of
what happened as a consequence of the
Enlightenment we we didn't understand
what we were doing and we didn't
understand the relationship between what
we were doing and the world of facts it
was super useful man what the
enlightenment absolutely absolutely why
did it break down why does it fall apart
because the world of facts doesn't speak
because the empirical hypothesis is
wrong will you give me that it's like
Newtonian physics versus einsteinian
physics where it's so close it gets you
so far but then ultimately it falls down
you realize there's a whole universe to
be unlocked there there's an there's a
reasonable analogy there the the problem
is it's like the fall of the science
ideas that science isn't an animating
spirit it's not a guide and so you the
world of facts see the empirical
hypothesis is that we derive all our
information from Facts it's it's not
it's just not the case that I'm going to
change that word for you and I think it
will help you get to what people are
trying to say it's utility that's
utility that's value who cares about
facts it's utility what I'm trying to
get people the American pragmatists
figured out in the late 1800s yes so but
you were saying people look at the world
and they see they don't see a water
bottle they see I can quench my thirst
they see the utility so someone I'm
putting words in their mouth and I don't
know them well enough but like if I were
to sit down with Sam or Dawkins I have a
feeling where where they buck is I don't
need the encapsulation of wisdom in this
story that I've seen kill millions of
people throughout history when people
dise even that's that's that's a very
see both Sam Harris and Richard Dawkins
identify the totalitarian spirit with
the religious spirit and that's a
failure of discrimination on their part
they're not the same thing the religious
spirit can be perverted by the
totalitarian Spirit but that doesn't
make it identical to it that's exactly
what the postmodernists claim when they
talk about the it's exactly the same
claim that the postmodernists are making
about systemic racism is that the system
itself is nothing but an emod embodiment
of oppressive power it's exactly what
Harris and Dawkins say about the
religious domain it's precisely the same
claim and it's not true it's not true
when religious idation is perverted it
perverts in the direction of power but
the truly religious have known that
forever I mean Christ himself is
crucified by the people who use the
religious Enterprise as a means to power
that's the
Pharisees this is this isn't
new so now can can the religious
Enterprise be perverted by those in
power well obviously the most effective
Psychopaths use what is highest to serve
what is lowest but they will also
smuggle things into the works that were
convenient and useful at the time to
justify Conquest whatever oh sure and
then that stays in the adance of that
philosophy that religion then do some
pretty horrible [ __ ] like it's easy to
understand where Sam is coming from
especially with Islam when somebody does
a thing that we consider pretty heinous
and they point to the book and say I did
it because it says to do this in that
then yes well it requires it requires
particularly careful separation of the
wheat from the chaff to get those things
straight yeah and is this why you say we
wrestle with God we're not just taking
every word of the Bible uh on its face
we are pulling from it you can't you
can't take every word on its face it's
not even technically possible because
the meaning of each word is dependent
on well the word obviously but the
history of the word and then the history
of the word in so far as you've
encountered it and then the word in that
phrase and then the phrase in that
sentence and then the sentence in its
paragraph and then all of the
relationships between all of those
levels and all the other sentences and
paragraphs in the whole book like it's
not like you can point to the facts in
the
Bible I mean that just doesn't work
because the Bible's actually the
structure through which the reason it
doesn't work is because the biblical
Corpus is a representation of the
structure through which facts are
interpreted it's not the facts
themselves it's a deeper form of truth
it's a deeper form of Truth okay well
the truth through which truth is scen
okay um I think what I hear you saying
is uh you need the narrative because the
narrative forces a hierarchical
structure to the facts that are being
discussed and without that Reed it gives
you a a framework with which to order
the facts you're trying to deal with so
that you don't have to reinvent that uh
sequencing of hierarchical Al facts
Alone by yourself it also gives you
protection against The False Consensus
of the group whoa say that again well
look people might
say they might say well our knowledge is
only a social construct and then maybe
they mean Truth by consensus you know so
let's assume that there's a world of
facts that you can Orient yourself in
we'll just leave that as an assumption
for now and then we'll say well people
come to Truth by consensus it's okay
well what what if the consensus is the
Nazi consensus
well then either that's a transgression
against a more fundamental truth or it's
just a variant of an infinite number of
equally valid consensual truths well you
can go down that morally relativistic
pit if you want but that's a form of
hell because
eventually The Logical culmination of
that mode of thinking is that there's no
value distinction between things in
which case you can't even move forward
because you only move forward towards
something better and so it just leaves
you bereft now the alternative is to say
well there is a central core of
hierarchical
Truth and that to some great degree
that's embedded in Tradition in which
case we can use tradition as the staff
the the the flag pole let's say like
Moses staff which is exactly what Moses
staff represents by the way that's the
tradition around which even our
consensus must
revolve right and that's the
conservative insistence that's one way
of thinking about it is
that there's a vertical axis of
orientation upward towards God mediated
by tradition and there's a horizontal
axis that it's that's part of the
ongoing conversation and consensus of
the moment but you got to ask yourself
and you already have asked this
question it's the question soier it's
posed if everyone has gone insane if
everyone's possessed by the LIE well
first of all to make that claim is is
also to make the assumption that there's
some truth that's now being ignored but
then on what grounds does the man who is
honest stand because it's obviously not
on the grounds of consensus because the
consensus is the lie that's the nature
of a totalitarian state right when the
consensus becomes the lie you're in a
totalitarian state and that obviously
implies indicates more directly that
there's a truth there's a truth outside
of that now the truth is a process
rather than a statement of facts or even
a statement of faith you know and partly
because partly because of the of the
mode of Enlightenment thinking we think
even Christians think and probably
especially Protestants not that I'm
singling out the Protestants because
that wouldn't be fair that you know to
believe in Jesus is to say a set of
facts and then say you believe them like
they're a scientific theory well you're
missing the point which is what the
Orthodox Christians have been trying to
tell the Protestants for a very long
time and the Protestants know this to
some degree the point is the imitation
of Christ that's the ultimate expression
of Faith it's not proclam it can also be
proclamation of a set of beliefs but
that's not what it is fundamentally when
you say faith what do you mean faith
that it will
work Faith Is What You Bet Your Life
on uhhuh but that's a definition I worry
that a lot of people bet their life on
that this is really true because then
they can just spout the bumper stickers
and they can shut the AR they're also
they're not just betting their life
they're betting their soul right that's
worse life that that disappears with
death you know let me play with an idea
here really fast is it possible that
part of what makes religion so useful is
that even if you are uh trying to treat
it like a dead bumper sticker
slogan uh that the wisdom that it
encapsulates is so useful that even if
you were just blindly doing it because
God told you to do that your life will
be better than if you were to um
not not well yes yes and I would also
say that even if you don't think so your
belief structure is permeated by the
implicit beliefs Dawkins believes in the
truth he believes in the redeeming power
of the
truth he believes in the redeeming power
of the communicated truth well there's
no difference between that and
worshiping the word the Divine word it's
the same thing and and if that wasn't
the case the scientific Enterprise
wouldn't have emerged out of the
Christian
ethos Dawkins though he doesn't know it
is mostly a Christian and so is Harris
now Harris has drifted off into
meditative space because he had to find
a God that was so ineffable that his
rational intellect could not tear it
down so that was Sam's solution the
question is why would he worry about his
rational intellect tearing it down it's
only because I think and this is this is
one of the things I'm dealing with which
is if you ask me to believe that it is
scientifically true that everything in
the Bible is literally correct I'm done
Tapped Out finished no way uh a level of
absurdity that I I just can't even
entertain like I I couldn't look myself
in the eye and be like yeah I actually
believe it whereas if you say to me hey
this is the ultimate encapsulation of
wisdom so if tradition is experiments
that worked I forget who said that but I
think that's a lovely way to think of it
that's a good one uh if that's true and
this story is has encapsulated these in
a way that the human mind can absorb
through the narrative and that this is
just withstood the test of time that if
you blindly believe this and act in
accordance your life will actually be
made better you could say The Exodus
description is a very accurate
description of what actually happened
but all the people who were there at the
time were blinded by the facts blinded
by the facts why do you say blinded by
the facts well how how much you already
said for example that when you look you
use some trifling percentage of the
available electromagnetic spectrum well
when you are anywhere doing anything
what fraction of what's going on in
reality do you perceive well I would say
the biblical accounts of what happened
are more accurate than the accounts of
the people who would have than the
accounts we would have generated had we
been
there there the there are there are
Glimpse behind the scenes that's another
way of thinking about it I I don't want
to spiral off from this I want to know
if you think this is really true because
this may make your message acess
accessible to people like me as one
Avatar uh that it might not otherwise be
that the mistake Sam is making is
approaching God which I will say is
encapsulated wisdom in a narrative that
you can pass it's the wisdom too even
that's even better okay so if he's
turning his rational mind to to it that
is to lose the forest for the trees
because now he's attacking the container
and he's saying oh but the you told me
the container was made out of wood but
it's actually made out of plastic
whatever it's like does it matter like
you got the thing in the container and
the thing in the container is what works
now I'm going to say something really
inflammatory and then I will shut up and
let you respond uh I have a feeling that
a big part of why religion works is that
it is the thing that it at all levels of
intellect works it works for extremely
smart people and it works for really
dumb people yeah yeah definitely that's
why so much of encapsulated that's
that's you know there's some real truth
in that now Dawkins response to that is
that's the most intellectually arrogant
thing he's ever heard but but well
because you know oh I see so it's good
for stupid people but not like for smart
people like me you know that's the
position I'm saying it's good for
everybody I know I know I know but his
response I've heard him respond to that
sort of thing his response is that's
intellectually arrogant but Dawkins
believes that Dawkins believes that
people can easily become scientists and
they can't like science Jesus I know
lots of scientists I know lots of people
who call themselves scientists not very
many of them are scientists scientists
are as rare as prophets they're rare now
you know you got people tinkering around
the edges and sometimes they you know
move things a trifle but someone
genuinely devoted to the truth in that
sort of monastic manner that requires
total commitment you know Dawkins is
probably one of those people you know
he's tangled up in his
own I don't I don't want to get you know
high on my horse here I like Richard
Dawkins and I and I learned a lot from
his writings and he got a lot right you
know I mean he is the last standing
Avatar of the rationalist spirit that's
a good way of thinking about it the
enlightenment spirit and in some ways
more power to him but his his view of
the religious Enterprise it's
biologically absurd like it's it's not a
functional view on from his own
perspective and I know that partly
because first of all he knows that a
biological organism has to be a
microcosm and second he came up with the
idea of meme the idea of meme is that
far from the idea of archetype yes it's
the same thing correct yeah well he just
he got to the meme part looked over the
edge and thought W we're not going there
when it comes to our future in career we
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free career consultation one of the
things that I'm always telling people
is money success Fame all that stuff is
irrelevant what matters is how you think
about yourself when you're by yourself
and I want to know what you think about
in terms
of self-identity how we can struct our
sense of self and then how we leverage
that to move through the world in a way
that makes
sense
so identity to me is something that's
practical it's it's your identity is a
uh it's like a dramatic role that you
play out in the
world and well playing that out it has
to furnish you with a
life and what that means is that it has
to be it means that it has to be
negotiated with other
people when you're a very young child
and you first start to play with who you
are you live in a fantasy world and
according to some developmental
psychologists at least particularly this
is grounded in the theories of P that
very young children two or three are
quite egocentric in their play they play
according to their own rules and so
they're not social yet until they're
three or four um
which means that they have their own
goals in mind and then they erect a
little fictional world around those
goals and then they play out the role
within that fictional world and that's
pretend play and when they get to be
about three or four and they start
playing with other kids they have to
bring their worlds together and
negotiate because both children have to
want to play and so that means identity
has to expand Beyond its egocentric
focus and increasingly be negotiated in
the social world I studied developmental
psychology for a long time especially in
Rel in relationship to the regulation of
aggression and most children learn to
regulate their aggression between the
ages of two and four now for example for
for instance there's a subset of
children mostly male who are very
aggressive at the age of two
comparatively speaking they bite kick
fight hit and steal
that's the definition of of aggressive
and almost all those children are
socialized out of that by the time they
four although a small proportion aren't
and they tend to be long-term antisocial
children and then criminal adults it's
very very difficult for that to be
rectified if it isn't rectified by four
what happens with most children is they
learn to move beyond their egocentric
presuppositions and include other
children in the play and so they start
to negotiate their roles and identity is
a sophisticated identity is a negotiated
role and so it's not appropriate for any
negated with who with
everyone with everyone and of course you
know this is the case because if you if
you well first of all if you're a child
and you want friends then you can't
insist that only your game be played so
I'll give you an example there there's
been observational studies of children
in playgrounds so imagine there's a
group of children together let's say
they're six or seven years old and
they're playing helicopter so they've
got their erasers out and they're
buzzing around in the helicopters okay
so they've already established the
ground rules there they've got together
and they laid out the drama they say
well let's play helicopter and maybe
there's four or five suggestions but the
group the group uh um develops a
consensus that helicopters the fun game
and let's make our eraser into
helicopters I don't have an eraser Well
you can use your pencil and it can be a
long helicopter and so everybody gets a
roll and everybody's happy about it
otherwise play won't continue right
everybody has to be happy or play won't
continue and so then the the the little
drama organizes itself and the kids play
helicopter and there's consequences of
that that play out like a story and then
maybe another kid comes along and he's
got an eraser and a pencil in his bag
and he wants to play helicopter too and
if he a socially sophisticated kid he'll
hang around the outside of the Little
Game and Watch and then he'll take out
his eraser and maybe start making
buzzing noises with it and when when he
can see that there's an opening in the
play situation he'll swoop in and maybe
he'll get integrated it's like when
you're at a cocktail party and you hear
a conversation and you're hovering
around the edge you wait for an opening
and then you say something that's gerine
to the topic and if you're sophisticated
enough and the people are friends enough
then it'll open and you'll be allowed in
now even popular kids often get rebuffed
when they try to enter an already
structured game unpopular kids don't
watch what's going on and then they come
along and try to impose their game on
the entire group and then they have a
tantrum if they don't get let
in and so that's a good example of how
identity is negotiated at the earliest
stages now that that feels to me um
something a it it feels very different
than what I would think of as identity
so I'm going to try to put this in
context of what I see as the major
movements of your work and what makes
you so powerful tell me where I go
astray so I look at your two books and
and I'm literally just paraphrasing from
what you said that they're basically the
yin and yang so you have Chaos on one
hand and you have order on the other
both will tend towards tyranny and as
far as I can tell and this is why I do
not understand why people are pushing
back on you why there's so much bizarre
backlash is the moral of your story is
hey everybody guess what you you need to
find this balance between the two if you
only exist in the creative potential it
ends up being all chaos all the time if
you only exist in the conservatism the
things that are already there and
working they will tend towards tyranny
solidify and cease to be useful and die
and so now it's this game and you do
this brilliant explanation of what
happens in a city that shows exactly
this with artists and if you can walk us
through that
and tell me if if the identity of the
artist if that's what you're trying to
get at with identity CU I I'm
understanding what you're saying in
terms of okay in that moment we're
negotiating but there's a grander sense
of who we become that is seems to me to
be a negotiation with the world so
collectively everybody else but also a
negotiation with how I want to feel
about myself when I'm alone and the
things that I think are right the things
that I think are wrong okay well okay
well that's very complicated so I'll
walk it through so as you pointed out
I'm going to hold up these books so this
is the new book beyond order and it does
concentrate on pathologies of structure
and the previous book which is 12 rules
for life an antidote to chaos and the
the underlying presupposition there is
that in our phenomenological landscape
so that's the world as we experience it
complete with emotions and motivations
and dreams and so the full range of
Human Experience
including the subjective and the
objective let's say can broadly be
broken into two domains and one is the
domain of things that are beyond our
grasp and reach and that's the unknown
the unknown emerges when the unknown
emerges you tend to experience anxiety
and then there's the the known and I
defined the known very specifically and
and very carefully the known is the
place you are when what you're doing
produces the results you want and I say
want because that brings motivation and
emotion into the game so you're
motivated to pursue something you pursue
it and what you want happens not only do
you get what you want but you get
validation for the structure that
governs your perceptions and your
actions now if you you know imagine that
you're um you know you're lonely and you
approach a young woman in a in a social
situation um attempting to make some
contact with her um you you want to
alleviate your loneliness and so you
hope you make a good impression and you
tell a joke let's say in a relatively
awkward Manner and you get rebuffed then
you feel you you you're no longer where
you control you're no longer where you
exercise control and that brings up all
sorts of specters immediately it's like
well why were you rebuffed well maybe
all women are uh to be despised that's
one Theory maybe there's something
deeply wrong with you maybe you're
having an off day maybe it wasn't a very
good joke and so when you don't get what
you want then a landscape of question
emerge questions emerge and those
questions can resonate through different
levels of your identity from the trivial
oh I told the joke wrong to the profound
there's nothing desirable about me and
I'll be alone for the rest of my life
now you asked about identity and I used
the example of a child's game but I
could go through an identity so I do
this particularly in maps of meaning and
so for example let's say I'm sitting
typing okay we could decompose my
identity so at the highest level of
resolution I'm moving my
fingers and so that could be my identity
I'm the thing that moves its fingers and
then slightly at a slightly broader
level than that I'm typing words and at
a broader level I'm typing phrases and
thinking them up and then sentences and
then paragraphs and then chapters and
then let's say full papers or books that
that's that's a productive unit so I'm
the author of a book or the author of a
paper that's an identity but then that's
nested inside for me it would be nested
inside being a clinical psychologist
being a professor being a good citizen
and then that's nested in some inside
something that's even broader than that
and I would say that that's nested
inside a a cultural heroism and I don't
mean that specific to me I mean that for
everyone that's the outermost level
whether you're playing out the role of
hero or adversary say that's that's the
highest possible level of identity
that's the level at which fundamental
morality is adjudicated and there isn't
really anything beyond outside that is
it's beyond us it's the Transcendent
itself and you're all of those at at any
one time you're all of those levels of
identity but those are all practical
right so those are the roles that you're
playing in the world all of those are a
consequence of who you are but in
interplay like in the situation with the
child all of that's negotiated with
other
people and so if you have a functional
identity you see if you have a
functional identity when you acted out
in the
world then you get what you want and
need and if an identity doesn't do that
well then you should you either retool
your identity or you retool the world
your conception of the world well if
you're retooling your conception of the
world then you're retooling yourself no
you can actually I mean what a
revolutionary does is try to bring the
world into alignment
with yes literally well and we all do
that to some degree because we are
practical Engineers you know I mean not
only do we perceive the world but we
also interact with it so that it does
manifest itself in accordance with our
desires there's limits obviously to how
far you can go or how far you should go
with that you know and um what are the
limits well there's practical limits
nature won't do what you want it to
unless you're very sophisticated in your
in your application of your knowledge
and other people will
object so now you might say well you
should Forge forward regardless of their
objection and you know there are C
circumstances under which that's true
but generally speaking that's not a very
good idea it certainly doesn't make you
popular as a child and so that brings up
one other issue I would also say and
this I developed this idea quite a bit
in the new
book you go from egocentrism as a child
you have to go through this period where
you're
socialized as a Child and Adolescent and
that really means that you allow your
identity to be molded and shaped by the
group and you know you think about how
important peers friends and peers are to
children and adolescen you know your
mother will say uh when you're a
teenager well if Johnny jumped off the
bridge would you too and you say well no
but the real answer is well probably if
all your friends are there taunting you
you would in fact jump off the bridge
and not only that generally speaking you
should because it's your duty it's your
developmental Duty as a child and a
teenager to take
your your isolated self and turn it into
a a functioning social
unit now you could say well do Peterson
wants everybody to be a functional
social unit a robot you know a cog in
the wheel and and I would say well that
that isn't where development
stops it has to go through that period
before you can emerge as a as a genuine
individual which means you have to know
the rules of the game before you can
break them but not being able to abide
by the rules is not anything like being
a genuine creative individual those are
not the same thing and there's plenty of
attempt to confuse the two things
because it's much better if you can't
follow the rules to view yourself as a a
avantgard revolutionary than as a
failure and it's not like I don't know
that that that social molding
crushes obviously it crushes and
everyone feels that these are
existential problems everyone deals with
the tyranny of culture and the fact that
it does want you to be a certain way and
not other ways and those ways might not
be in keeping with your with your the
deepest elements of your nature well
tough luck for you you because you're
also the beneficiary of culture and so
you have to offer it your pound of Flesh
now you shouldn't do that at the expense
of your soul but you shouldn't stay an
immature child other
either and so this this notion of
identity that we're being fed is very
very it's very thin what are we being
fed be very
specific well there is the idea for
example that your identity is whatever
you say it is and that everyone else has
to go along with that no that isn't how
it works partly
because no one even knows how to go
along with it like let's say just for
example that you're a gender
non-binary
okay what am I supposed to
do about that man I don't know I hardly
know what to do if the rules are already
there so let's say I grow up I want to
being a heterosexual male I want to find
a woman fall in love with her raise a
family have children have grandchildren
that's a game I know the rules to it not
well because everyone's a failure at
that you know it's very difficult but at
least you kind of know what the the goal
is and so does the person you're with
well you leap out of that which is
already terribly difficult you leap out
of that into completely unknown
territory saying um uh that I'm
presenting yourself as something other
than those categories leaves everyone
around you and you completely bereft of
Direction let me put it in words that I
get from um your material so what I
heard you just say tell me if I'm wrong
is part of the negotiation that we do
from the time we are little kids and
figuring out that play we're up on the
bridge we jump maybe because we want to
you know fit in with our peer group um
it there is a sense of order to that now
you've been very careful and it will
drive me crazy if people respond to this
interview as if you have not already
Illustrated that it is the bance between
two opposing forces but so we need
enough order so that somebody can find
their way through the world and that
many I think a big part of the reason
that your work has resonated so
profoundly with people is they excuse me
they are left in a world where they
don't know how to move forward in a way
that serves them spiritually practically
as well for sure and so hey everybody
both of those both of those practically
Shades into spiritually As you move up
into the broader reaches of
identity you know and look this this see
one of the things I really laid this out
in maps of meaning it took me a long
time to understand that belief regulated
emotion so what happens is that if you
act out your identity if you act out
your beliefs in the world and what you
want doesn't happen what happens is that
your body defaults into emergency
preparation for action and the reason
for that is you've wandered too far away
from the campfire and now you're in the
forest and maybe you're naked and so
what do you do then and the answer is
well you don't know what to do so what
do you do when you don't want know what
to do and the answer is you prepare to
do everything and the problem with that
is that it's unbelievably draining
psychophysiologically like it hurts you
and there there's there's an immense
physiological literature
detailing the the cost of of of exactly
that kind of
response and so people need people and
animals they people stay where what they
do has the results they want that's
partly why you want to be around people
who share your cultural
presuppositions is because you know that
for example even in small ways let's say
you're a country music
afficionado and you're hanging around
with your cowboy hated buddies and you
throw on a tape and everyone says great
Tunes man and you you know you're happy
about that but you know you throw on a
piece by chowski and you're you're in a
different subculture and who the hell
are you and people the people in your
group will say man who listens to music
like that and like that's a trivial
example in some sense but I I believe
it's one that everyone can resonate to
we like we it's very hard on us not to
be where we know what we know that what
we want is going to happen we hate that
we hate that and no wonder so and then
you know there are there are varying
degrees of that obviously you can really
be where you don't know what's going to
happen or you can only be there to some
degree but by and
large by and large we're conservative
creatures even if we're liberal in
temperament there's not we can't
tolerate that much
uncertainty and there you might ask well
why and the answer is well because you
can be hurt pain you can be damaged you
can become intolerably anxious and you
can die so it's no wonder you're
sensitive or very sensitive to negative
emotion and so our identities re
functional identity regulates your
emotion but you do that in concert with
other people in the first chapter of the
new book beyond order the rule is uh
don't casually denigrate social
institutions or creative achievement
that's that balance again okay I want to
dive in here and I'm going to see if I'm
tracking all of this because I'm I'm
putting this in a larger context of this
really matters and it applies directly
to something that's happening in the
world it seems to me that you don't dive
into things unless they have real
relevance so is it fair to Define
identity
as the self narrative that emerges from
an nearly infinite number of
interactions with other people and
nature
itself well I I would say yes but that
gets to the point it's so broad it's
almost it it starts to lack definition
so I can take it finer than that I I am
trying to sort of find the borders and
then then then I will work in okay so if
we're if we still remain true at that
point um then having in the book you
walk through a lot of some of the people
that you've done psychoanalysis with and
so we get a lot of insights into the
actual people that you're dealing with
and how people can begin to tell
themselves a narrative that is very
dysfunctional and you help them out I
don't want to say easily because that
that sounds like it cheapens it but
pretty straightforward in helping them
reframe and framing is something I'm
obsessed with and so our identity is
based on this it's a self-narrative that
we tell ourselves based on the
interactions we have with other people
and nature such that we begin to
solidify a set of behaviors that make
sense for us based on the goals that we
want to achieve and where we're trying
to go am I still good yes well well you
improved your definition by adding the
behavioral element because I would say
the fundamental element of identity is
what you act out on top of that there's
the story that you tell do I have to be
consciously aware of it well you're
consciously aware of some of it not of
other elements of it you can't be
consciously aware of everything you do
and does do conscious and unconscious
alike make up my identity as you define
it your identity is the story you about
your actions in the world but it's also
your actions in the
world okay
now why does my identity and I assume as
I understand it why does my identity as
I understand it matter to the course of
my
life because it's the it's the structure
of the it's it's the structure from
which the plans that you implement in
the world
originates and you're always acting in
the world you have problems to solve all
the time and you have to solve you have
you have to solve there's all sorts of
problems you have to solve to stay alive
and you have to solve them for today but
you have to solve them in a way that
works for today that doesn't screw up
tomorrow too bad and leaves next week
intact and next month and next year and
so there's a Continuum of you so that's
another see that's the other reason why
your identity can't just be you because
or how you feel right now now because
you're not only who you are right now
and how you feel right now you're this
strange entity that exists right now but
that already existed in the past and
that is going to repeat itself into the
future and so you're actually a
community of individuals stretched out
across time and the plans that you
implement have to be beneficial for that
entire community of individuals and it's
going to be the case that there isn't
much difference between you acting
properly with regards to your extended
temporal self and you acting properly in
relationship to other people that's
interesting so you're stuck with Society
just because you know that there's a
future you're stuck with Society even if
you're
solipsistic right if you think you're
the only conscious Consciousness that
there is there's still the fact that you
have duration across time and that you
know you have to take into
account what the consequence for your
actions is going to be on the
50-year-old Tom and the 80-year-old
Tom and
so now here's a
question do you think that there's
something that has pathologized the
creation of useful identities in today's
culture
well I think each person can judge that
for themsel to some degree I mean the
more functional your identity the better
regulated your emotion the more posit
positive emotion the less negative
emotion certainly negative emotion
doesn't rise to an intolerable level if
you're fortunate your identity is well
constructed I think that any insistence
that identity is something other than a
pragmatic set of actions let's say that
Orient you properly in the world
is sufficiently sparse so that it isn't
going to solve the problem that H the
problems that have to be solved so so I
might insist I'm whoever I think I am at
the moment and if you were polite you
would go along with that and to some
degree I would be right we do that when
we allow people to save
face but if I'm right we we go along
with their pre presuppositions
presumptions we don't call them on their
mischief and a certain amount of that's
polite but that doesn't alleviate the
necessity for me of adopting a role that
other people find valuable otherwise
what the hell do I have to
trade and you might say well why should
I have to trade
well you if you can live all by yourself
then you don't have to trade but if you
can't you have to bring something of
value to the table and you can't insist
on its value other people have to agree
to that and so I can't say well I'm my
sexual identity it's like yeah that's a
part of your
identity so this is where I wanted to go
so you brought up um the idea or the
example of somebody giving a sexual
identity of some kind and that was what
prompted me to say do you think there
are things that are pathologizing is it
just that people are trying to Define
themselves in isolation like adopting
their identity adopting their identity
around um a a
non-negotiated with the external people
and World a unnegotiable
to be able to go along with it and you
merely insisting that you're a certain
way doesn't give anyone else any
guidelines to go along with except for
your whim and that's going to change and
people aren't going to be able to
predict it anyways and so the thing is
is that in the identity politics world
there's an implicit theory of identity
otherwise we wouldn't have an identity
politics and obviously the identity it
appears to be the case that the identity
that characterizes identity politics is
something like like um unalterable
characteristics they seem somewhat
arbitrarily chosen to me which is also a
huge catastrophe because it isn't
obvious why those elements of identity
should be Paramount sex gender race
ethnicity there's endless numbers of
other possibilities and I I can't for
the life of me see why they aren't
equally um what valued let's say but
even even if we accepted the validity of
those as identity
categories
they're the the theory under that is
that that constitutes a sufficient um
what would you describe it that
constitutes a sufficient
identity because you see we're not
having a discussion publicly about what
identity is that's assumed a priority
it's race it's ethnicity it's sex it's
gender well no it's not and that's
actually a big problem
especially when it's not because those
things are not Universal not all um
transsexual people think the same act
the same so it's it's unnegotiable
a very useful guide to action across
time because no one knows it's a game no
one knows the rules to okay so I think
I'm starting to get a sense not helpful
you know and then but wait there's one
more thing too because there's also this
an analysis of culture that goes along
with this that's part of let's say
critical race Theory you take these
categories identity categories and you
accept the implicit theory of identity
upon which they're based and then you
note that the world doesn't divide up
its resources equally among all those
categories and then you make the
assumption that the social world is
Prejudiced and corrupt because of that
well that doesn't follow partly
because the association between those
identities and reward isn't obvious like
you can't make a living being
black you can't make a living being
white so now give us an example of what
can you make a living like are there
four or five like I was going to say um
is this trying to push people to you
should have the identity of the hero or
something along those lines that gives
them something to strive towards a a
historically charged
um Cadre of things that they know okay
well if I'm the hero I'm going to need
to be brave I'm going to have to face
down the dragon of chaos you know
there's now there is order and structure
to the way in which I need to move
through the
world well remember at the beginning of
the conversation I sort of provided a
nested theory of identity so for example
let's say you're a filmmaker and I'm a
professor okay we could so we different
there right we're playing a different
game so you might say and and as you go
down into the particulars of what we do
it might even become more different so
if you look at what a plumber does and a
lawyer does as as you get more and more
fine grain they get more diverse but you
might say well the lawyer and the
plumber are both honest they're both
good
citizens and then you might Nest that
inside well they're both acting out the
archetype of the hero and and and like I
said after that you're out of the things
get too abstract to for us to we can't
go farther than that I think that you
know I think the world is order versus
chaos let's say the balance of Order and
Chaos on a it's good and evil on a
background of order versus chaos and so
you're either the hero or the adversary
or actually most of the time you're a
mixture of both and it's best for you
that's what our culture has decided it
it's best for you to take on the role of
the hero to the degree that that's
possible and that would be associated
with love and that's that the love and I
Define that in the second book
particularly what the third book I wrote
but in in Beyond order are you working
for the betterment of being or are you
working for
harm and everyone has a sense of this
and they know when they're working for
harm there is a Doomsday Clock that we
use to track how close CL we are to
nuclear Annihilation the closer to
midnight theoretically the higher the
risk if we had a Doomsday Clock for how
close we are to a totalitarian takeover
of the West how close to midnight would
it be it depends on what we decide to do
it the opportunities there
at for a a pervasive totalitarian state
the likes of which we can hardly imagine
instituted with a rapidity we can hardly
conceive that's there it's right there
in front of us so that's the eye of saon
by the way why well if you dispense with
God you create a Tower of Babel and that
was what was represented in the Lord of
the Rings as the Tower of soron
technological Tower and what was on the
top of it a big eye that could see
everything exactly
so if you don't have this is one way of
thinking about it if you forgo your
relationship with the omniscient
that's a good way of thinking about it
you'll create a technology that
replicates that for you except there'll
be nothing about it that will be your
friend and it will watch everything you
do no matter how hard you try to make
yourself invisible let's say with the
ring of
power okay so I want to understand what
what is the proclivity in the human soul
that leads us back to this and let me
give you a little bit of context and
then uh go into it so you introduced me
to Alexander Soldier nits I actually
read the gulg archipelago that sent me
on a terrifying journey of reading about
every totalitarian state that I could
get my hands on oh yeah uh ended up
really scaring me about how humans can
break bad in a way that I felt I was
looking around and seeing people trying
to gobble up power uh top down Authority
a sense of I know what's right and
therefore you should do what I say and
that even when it comes in the package
of oh I'm going to save you like M China
it's usually when the package it comes
in yeah and and yet kills 100 plus
million people so is it only darkness in
the human soul is it only Pride or is
there the spirit of Pride it's the
eternal spirit of Pride allied with
deceit and resentment and arrogant
arrogance that's the spirit that Milton
characterized in Paradise Lost is it is
it only
human no clearly not it exists only
human what do you mean well be there
long after you are it's Immortal in a
way that's a way of thinking about it
but it feels like it would propagate
only through the human mind what do you
mean
only that there is no other option I
mean we could get into AI but I want to
segment this out the the reason I want
to tease this apart is I believe that
people are possessed by ideas that if
they allow themselves to become
possessed by ideas they invite them in
yeah even better people invite in ideas
those are going to theity of their life
and then as of USG around good or bad
ideas the quity of Our Lives get better
orties so that's that's right that's
right what I want people to understand
is uh Soldier nen's idea of the line
between good and evil runs to the heart
of every man uh we all have this
temptation towards totalitarianism born
of Pride uh especially smart people so
how do we avoid it
fear fear of God is the beginning of
wisdom well what is God then the
antithesis of the of the spirit of
totalitarian
Pride can I simplify that so well
imagine this okay sure sure imagine this
imagine that here's a form of hell um
owitz guard enjoying his job okay now I
think it's it's fair to say that your
experience
exposing yourself to such things has
convinced you that there's such a thing
as evil okay whatever is farthest in the
opposite direction that's God what is
that well that's not a simple thing to
say I mean God is
ineffable God is the
ineffable spirit that unites
all that's a good way of thinking about
it so what does that mean well it means
an endless number of things right many
of which can't be formulated in in
words much of which is directly
experienced embodied um imagined felt
motivated all of that not just words
it's certainly not something that can be
cap encapsulated in a in a set of
declarative statements which is partly
what the West is confused about we think
that belief in God
is adherence to a statable description
of God or a Creed that's not what it is
that's
that's a very small fragment of what it
is just as our verbal knowledge is a
small fragment of our
totality can I give you what I think
you're saying in my language and tell me
if I'm getting correct okay uh
everyone's going to be familiar with the
idea of The Madness of crowds and there
is something terrifying if you've ever
been around a group that goes from a
normal group and they snap over into
fighting or whatever you feel mob yeah
you feel a spirit overcome
where they are linked and it changes
something in the way that they are
processing the inputs from their
environment definitely it changes their
perceptual frame yes changes their
emotions it changes what they see it
changes what they're aiming at even
unconsciously it's no different than the
in some ways it's no different than the
spirit that unites a crowd when it leaps
to the to its feet spontaneously after a
particularly brilliant goal right that's
also a form of possession although much
more positive form of possession CU
that's a celebration of the ability to
hit the mark which is the opposite of
sin right sin means to miss the mark
there's three separate derivations of
the word sin that come from archery yeah
yeah so that's what people are doing in
the stadium is there allowing themselves
to be possessed by the spirit that hits
the target
brilliantly right all together
collectively it's a form of worship
what's interesting in that uh so let's
put two pins in things so one the
hell is the exact opposite it's when the
crowd goes mad it breaks bad it kills it
smashes it breaks and then God is the
exact opposite of that it's expansive
joyful
uplifting and unifying right it has that
yes it's the proper Unity that's another
way these are definitions right they're
not statements they're not statements
they're not descriptive statements about
God they're definitions they're
definitions that's a very very different
thing so
imagine that there is a spirit that
properly unifies that's that's the
monotheistic God that's the god of
Abraham what is that well you
know who can
say no one can say we can tell stories
about it and of course the biblical
stories are stories about that that's
exactly what they are but the fastest
way in for modern people I would say is
the roote you took if you don't believe
in good well try investigating evil and
see what you make of that and then start
start to understand what that means for
you and see what that does to you is one
of the things I realized CU I started
studying malevolence of very long time
ago now it's it's 50 years for me it's a
long time
and I certainly became convinced that in
some ways there was nothing more real
than malevolence now there are arguable
contenders pain for example is a
contender but if malevolence is an
undeniable reality
and there's a price to be paid for
denying that by the way because you turn
the Nazi catastrophe into just a matter
of opinion right if you don't believe in
something like the Ultimate Reality of
evil it's
just well you know the Nazis went about
things a slightly different way who's to
say what's right or wrong and while the
opposite of that there's an opposite of
that right it's what it's wherever you
go if you travel as far away from
enjoying owitz as you can possibly go
and people might say well no one enjoyed
orwitz it's like really what was the
sign over owitz the joke work will make
you free people joked you tell me they
didn't didn't enjoy it slay if you think
that people didn't enjoy orwitz you know
nothing about human beings and nothing
about
yourself if you think you couldn't have
enjoyed it you know nothing about
yourself and that's terrifying and
should be and that it can lead you you
see that leads you you because it gives
you something solid to stand on
something terrible terrible and solid
but nonetheless something motivating
because maybe you decide that you don't
want to go to hell so to speak and maybe
you don't want to bring everyone you
love along with you maybe you don't even
want to bring everyone you hate along
with you that's a good
realization better to redeem than to
damn you changed my life with a simple
idea and that simp idea was that um I
could find myself as the guard in aitz
and not as the person hiding um and
Frank in my addict yeah oh five of them
yeah exactly and that scared me you saw
that yes I mean God the thing it just
terrified me in Toronto it was something
remarkable to behold all these butter
won't melt in your mouth hyper moral
Canadians you know secure in the fact
that they're nothing for example like
the warmongering Americans to the south
delighting in the fact that they could
turn their neighbors over to the state
with a phone call willing to wear those
goddamned masks for the rest of their
life just to have the privilege of being
a state informant brutal
brutal awful so I look at that and I see
myself and I say okay the line between
which way I go on that runs through my
heart this is where I get obsessed with
the idea of okay I'm going to be
possessed by ideas which ideas is do I
want to invite in that's why Christ says
that the kingdom of God is like a
mustard
seed it takes root and grows inside you
like all ideas ideas are alive Richard
Dawkins figured this out although he
didn't take it to its logical conclusion
a living idea is a meme all ideas are
alive and what do I mean by that well
they're instantiated in your nervous
system like how are they not alive how
do they not have a perspective how do
they not have an aim a set of
motivations
um the desire to communicate even n n
said every Drive attempts to
philosophize in its own Spirit n knew
these things and then you do you you you
incorporate you take in you eat
sometimes things you shouldn't that's
the Eternal sin of mankind to
incorporate even the forbidden fruit
what's the forbidden fruit knowledge of
Good and Evil what does that mean you
don't get to make the moral rules and
that's where n went wrong we don't we
can't create our own values we have to
abide by the intrinsic order of the
cosmos Richard Dawkins knew this too he
wrote a paper stating that biological
organisms had to be a microcosm of the
environment in which they evolved it's
like okay Dr Dawkins how far are you
willing to take that a human being is a
personality does that mean that the
cosmos is is a personality is it
something you have a relationship with
that's how we're adapted so he can take
that wherever however he wants the the
Avatar of the spirit of Enlightenment
rationality right that that's that's a
snake that's now devoured its own tale
so that's why the enlightenment is
coming to an end yes we are for sure
going to talk about that before we get
to that though I I how did you notice
that I said
that uh you gave a speech I I I listen
to a lot of your stuff because you help
me think through complicated ideas uh I
am a big believer in that um by speaking
you're speaking so that you can
understand not necessarily so you can be
understood so I seek people that I see
have The Bravery to actually think out
loud and process through also for
anybody watching they will probably have
heard me talk about this before and I
was telling you this before we started
rolling I was very confused when you
went from the internet's dad you got
very sick and you came back as like the
internet's Theologian and I could not
figure out what that change was uh but
as somebody who I had seen be a very
careful thinker I thought okay what if
there were something here that I'm just
not understanding yet let me try to map
it and I don't know that you and I see
this the same way I don't know is the
honest answer and I hope we figure that
out today but I know that you have
Clarity of thought and there's internal
consistency and so that means that
there's probably something very useful
because you know what you're aiming
towards and this is the anchor we have
to address before we can move on way
from yes yes which to your point about
uh sin is missing the mark but that
implies that there is because I would
say sin is hitting the wrong Mark if I
had another way of looking at it well
that's that's a deeper form of sin
because that's what I think is happening
right now I really think you're the
canary and the coal mine what's
happening to you with them trying to
strip your license even though I do hate
the way you tweet I'm not going to lie
but I listened to that whole episode
where your friends were like Jordan
please stop I was literally in my house
like Jordan please anyway you get you
should have the right to be come somewh
correct you should be a fully-fledged
human being you should not have to
answer to us even though as people who
um have gotten so much value out of the
way that you think through problems
that's what we're responding to anyway
so the thing we have to get to is I
think sin is hitting the wrong Mark I
think people are hitting that Mark in
Spades I think you've become the
lightning rod
Pride that's why we worship Pride well
pride has always pride has always been
regarded as the ultimate sin before we
before we go down that path let me let
me string this whole idea together uh
you're the canary and the coal mine
because why would that be I wonder uh
because you won't shut up about things
that people who believe because I take
the stance the totalitarians actually
are trying to do good some of them
aren't but I think that that makes it
too easy to push them away assume that
they are just possessed by the wrong
idea and so they believe I know what's
best I I legitimately know what's best
for Humanity yeah but that's the problem
I get it bear with me and you are who's
the eye that knows just out of curiosity
uh in that statement that's say I'm
saying I know how wrong that can go
those people are saying they they think
they have
identified the social structure that
will lead to a Utopia they identify
their eye with the spirit of
totalitarianism that has possessed them
they haven't gotten that far they may
not even be smart enough to get that far
which is a whole another thesis I have
about the complexity of ideas which I
think is a big part of what causes this
problem is people cannot think through
these incredibly complicated ideas so
they need bumper stickers you give them
a bumper sticker need
Parables oh you're trying to make it
positive again people will take a bumper
sticker long before they will take a par
way more complicated that's you know
what you know what slogan means yes no I
don't know what it means it's from it's
from the Welsh SL G it means battlecry
of the Dead why of the
dead because slogans are dead words and
they're like as in dead brandished by
they're brandished by the army of the
Dead that would rather drag the living
into the pit than Prevail than allow the
living to Prevail battlecry of the dead
it's the army of the Dead speaking
through the mouths of people that use
slogans okay can I I'm going to
translate that yeah uh you said earlier
that you know how soier niton talked
about people who were possessed by an
ideology right and they their words
their words had no personal relationship
to them they were they were merely
mimicking an ideology all the Communists
said exactly the same thing there's
nothing alive about that if everyone is
saying exactly the same thing well
because and this is I suppose where the
left has something
has has something accurate perverted
there's a diversity and a Vitality an
originality in In Living speech that's
not there in in the land of cliche and
slogan that's why you can't listen to
people like when I listen to ideologues
talk it's just buzzing I can't even hear
it my mind goes elsewhere instantly
there's nothing about it that's
compelling there's nothing that's
gripping because they're not testing the
idea against feedback
there's multiple reasons for because
they're because the speech is an
indication that while they're speaking
they're not treading the golden path
what's the golden
path it's the path that grips attention
and is inspiring okay I have to say you
can give me space I need to say this
that's that's fine all right so um not
trying to speak elusively there's no no
I know I know you and I just use such
different language and I think it will
be very use use ful for people to hear
the same thing said in like a Rosetta
Stone Way definitely okay so I've heard
you talk about this a lot when you go
out and do your talks part of what makes
them so captivating is you are actually
taking a living idea that you were
trying to explore golden path it's not
rigid Dogma it is an idea you want to
find the truth of and so you go out in
front of a crowd to assess whether
they're taking it in what kind of like
silence perfect and so that idea is
living in as much as it is not rigid it
is not fossil
you want it's not predetermined it's not
dogmatic right that's right it's that's
why it's not dead it's not already
formulated it's not a
corpse it's something alive that's
happening right then and there right
right and that's something that only
spontaneous speech can manage even even
books suffer from the lack of that now
books have their utility they in a book
when you write a book when you read a
book you can deeply investigate an idea
but it does risk a kind of death the
death of the words on the page because
they're not as finely attuned to the
demands of the situation the specific
situation as a spontaneous speech can be
when it's at its highest because it's of
the moment that notion that you know um
there's that's the third person of the
Trinity right that spirit that possesses
you when you speak in an inspired manner
that's a and that's a symbolic
representation of the Living spirit of
of of exploration in relationship to the
highest goal that's really what it is
and so you know you might say well what
what do you have to be aiming
at if if your goal is to speak in that
manner and the answer is well you have
to be doing your best for the best in
you and other people that has to be your
aim and then you have to speak truth in
so far as you're capable and that will
do the trick and there's no difference
between that and the paraclete that
Christ left in the gospels behind behind
after his departure it's a reflection of
the idea of the holy spirit it's the
baptismal spirit it's the spirit of God
that moves upon the waters at the
beginning of time it's a it's the
creative manifestation of the structure
that extracts habitable order from chaos
it's all of those things in its living
form that's why it's inspiring why else
would it be
inspiring why else would it attract and
gleam right or have motive Force right I
mean the and and you can think of it
instinctually if you want it speaks
biologically those are words that speak
to the deepest core of your being
materially for that matter because
everything Stacks up if everything's
unified in the highest Place everything
Stacks up and and that is the case that
to me is the final test of an idea's
validity if it will stack and if it will
point you to things that are true that's
technically True by the way because one
of so the reason that you have five
senses is so that your orientation
occurs as a consequence of things that
are stacked when all five senses report
the same thing you have a reasonable
assurance that what you're seeing
corresponds sufficiently to reality so
you won't perish right now we that isn't
enough because then I'll take the
evidence of my senses and contrast it
with the evidence of yours from your
slightly different perspective and then
we'll do that collectively we're doing a
lot of stacking in order to filter the
infinite sufficiently so that we can
model it well enough to move forward a
lot of stacking and that is there's a
technical branch of
psychometrics uh construct
theory that that psychologists have
developed to help distinguish between
Concepts that are real from Concepts
that aren't like the phenological
concepts for example that people used to
use to map the hypothetical functions of
the brain
there was something in that idea but
they weren't real Concepts how do you
know if a concept is real well you can
measure it using multiple different
instruments at different times and in
different places and get the same report
something like that right right right
this is why the case against you scares
me this is people with dead
ideas uh enslaving others with bumper
stickers slogans that they can hold on
to that makes them feel morally virtuous
but they not simple they're simple and
morally virtuous yes it's a viciously
tempting combination right correct one
idea explains everything plus once you
brandish that idea all your moral work
is done right very very tempting that is
definitely the tempting that is
definitely the temptation of a deadly
slogan like from each according to his
ability to each according to his need
you can destroy the world with that dead
weapon yeah and we you know we did a
pretty good job of trying that and we're
not done apparently yeah so
uh this is why I think you have to be
from their lens you have to be silenced
because you force that idea to compete
for validity in the realm of ideas and
if it really is ideas and that's all we
have if it doesn't compete in the realm
of ideas it will compete in the realm of
Flesh yes right everyone needs to know
that and its unwillingness to compete in
the realm of ideas is a signal that it's
not valid which is why they can't put
this is exactly why Biden saying I'm not
going to debate scares the life out of
me because that's what you do when you
can't win like if you know your ideas
are more compelling you step to the mic
all day long or if you know that you
should subject them to debate so if
you're wrong you could learn even
because maybe that's even what you want
in a leader you don't necessarily need a
leader who's right because God help you
you're not going to find that but you
could at least find one who is willing
to put his ideas to the test to discover
where he's wrong that's a leader that's
someone with courage right that's
someone willing to kill the to kill the
father in a sense to kill the tyrannical
father because the tyrannical father is
the presumption of your own dead ideas
that not psychologically speaking that's
the case that's the giant that the
heroes slays in order to make the new
world right the dogma of the past the
dead dogma of the past it might have
even been valid at some point but you
want a leader who embodies that spirit
and not necessarily the correct
knowledge you know P Jean P the
developmental psychologist he knew this
is
that the deepest truth is a proper
formulation of the process by which
truth itself is
generated right and that's what P was
trying to discover when he evaluated
children he knew that again the
deepest I don't know if I can say that
again the deepest truth is the
representation of the process by which
truth itself is generated that's the
hero story
wow it's a process truth is a process
truth is a spirit rather than a set of
dead facts why do people run from it
because it forces you to pick up your
cross I mean really obviously obviously
like why do people run is the question
well what do they run from Pain and
malevolence well why
well it's obvious why they what's not
obvious is how you could not do that
well you know the the entire biblical
Corpus is an analysis of why you
shouldn't run what would mean not to run
what it would mean if you
fully ceased running that's the story of
Christ the story of Christ is the story
of a man the man let's say who ceased
running that's what it that's what the
story is can I give you an alternate
take that scares me so badly and I think
I'm right about this okay I think well
if it scares you that's a good
indication that you might be right yeah
uh
the big problem here is that to pick up
a cross and be willing to suffer what
Jesus suffered you have to you have to
have a conviction that you're right that
hell awaits on the other side of not
doing that most people cannot think
through ideas that complicated and be
certain enough that they'd be willing to
be torn down MH
well that's reflected to some reflected
to some degree in the structure of
especially the Catholic church and and
and Doki pointed to that in the brothers
kurasov there's a scene in the brothers
kov where Christ comes back to Earth in
the midst of the Spanish
Inquisition and he performs his miracles
and goes about goes about his spiritual
business goes about being the process of
the word and The Inquisitor comes and
arrests him and throws him in prison and
then comes down in the middle of the
night and says look you know we've we
don't need you around you're a lot of
trouble we've taken your impossible
message your impossible demands and we
recast them so that flawed people can
manage and the last thing we need is you
to show back up and destroy everything
we've done to make what you had to say
palatable because people just can't
manage it it's too much and Christ
listens and at the end he kisses The
Inquisitor who turns white and leaves
and but he leaves the door open when he
leaves and and that's that's a
complicated answer to your question but
you are right in a sense that it's too
much to ask but you're
wrong and that people turn to lesser
Solutions mediated
Solutions like a belief in an external
Christ let's say that's that's one way
of thinking about it rather than a joint
belief in an internal and external
Christ which would be more
comprehensive and
they turn to that instead of
of seeking out the whole Adventure the
problem with that is and this is the
problem is that you don't have a choice
about your cross exactly you only have a
choice about how you will bear it
because death and and hell are coming
for you and that's that there's no
escape from that and so all you can
choose is the manner in which you
confront it and you can do it
voluntarily
wholeheartedly in good faith with
courage or you can do it any of the
insane multiplicity of other ways that
clamor for your
attention that's right my name is Legion
right there's a word there's a reason
for
that right so so the the Christian
message fundamentally is that your best
bet All Things Considered truly all
things considered is to take the whole
burden on like wide eyes wide open right
that's what Abraham does for example
when he goes on his great adventure it's
the it's a and that's what job does
there are precursors to this idea in the
Old Testament stories it's in some ways
fully revealed that's a good way of
thinking about it in the New Testament
stories so Christ's claim is that he
embodies the spirit in the Old Testament
you think that's right
I think that's the simplest explanation
and it has to do you said already that
people can allow ideas to possess them
so what idea should you allow to possess
you well the insistence in the
judeo-christian tradition is that you
should invite in this the spirit of your
ancestors the unified monotheistic
creative loving kind truthful Spirit of
your ancestors something's coming in or
a multitude of things how about A
diversity of things how about a rainbow
of things or a plurality of things what
under some United flag the union of
diversity I don't think so it's no
wonder that we believe in the union of
diversity when we believe that a man can
be a
woman if we believe those things there's
nothing we won't swallow no camel too
big to go down our throats no
totalitarian lie we won't rush to
embody so you asked earlier where are we
Ed like every single person is making up
their mind about that well they always
have but it's really evident at the
moment and it's going to become a lot
more evident than it is because people
are moving in the wrong direction no
they've always done that but not this
fast interesting right because we're you
know we're we're we're in a we're in a
runaway cycle of of transformation and
yeah I think we're in a positive
feedback loop where social media allows
simplistic ideas to positive feedback
loops yeah it uh I I the Only Solution I
see is that's the dragon that needs its
own tail the positive feedback
loop we interpret the orob boros
differently well it's many things you
know because it is a symbol of chaos but
one of the things it is is a runaway
positive feedback loop interesting I see
that as um the what ends up happening
when you don't have the right
foundational model that you can't make
progress because your core found
Foundation is such that you eat your own
progress yeah true incompetence is the
easiest way to think of it you have the
wrong model that's to me what the orob
boros is about which is the whole idea
that you're saying that's why it emerges
when the father dies right you know the
yeah if the if the father is a corpse
the Urus makes itself manifest the
Mesopotamians knew this when when the
okay so the Mesopotamian Gods killed
their father absu and tried to live on
his corpse well that's what we're doing
when we mouth slogans we're trying to
live on the corpse of the past and in
instead of embodying its Living spirit
they try they slay the past they're they
have no regard for the past which is
also what we're doing by the way they
slay the past and attempt to inhabit its
corpse like jepetto in the whale it's
the same idea and tat shows back up
she's the dragon of chaos and she and
her goal is to destroy everything and
that's one of the precursors that idea
is one of the precursors to the flood
myth and the word tat is they say
etymologically cognate with the word
toou vaboh and that's the chaos out of
which God makes order at the beginning
of time all these ideas are linked so if
you inhabit dead ideas you will bring
back
chaos of course the dead yes the dead
ideas can no longer they can no longer
sustain you in
your active contending with the present
this happen in The Lion King what
happens when Scar Takes Over The Pride
what what happens when Scar takes over
Pride Rock Pride Rock it's so a comical
scar takes over Pride Rock well why well
he's scarred that's the first thing he's
intellectually arrogant obviously and
the whole Kingdom turns into a wasteland
a dry sterile desert Wasteland that's
always the case it's always been the
case and and we're seeing the archetypal
outlines more clearly now because things
are changing at a ever accelerating rate
and so God only knows what does Jonathan
Paso say Giants will walk the earth once
again they already
are what is The Enlightenment why do we
have to get to the other side of it or
why do you think maybe we already are
the enlightenment is the belief that the
material world speaks for itself
and it's not true you have to see facts
through a lens of value the
postmodernists got that right that's why
we are in the culture War to some degree
is the postmodern critique was correct
we see the world through a story and the
facts now indicate that I've I've talked
with Carl friston for example one of the
world's great neuroscientists many
people know this now um I asked friston
is a is an object a micro narrative he
said yes so we have to understand what
to do with it function you bet you bet
you bet you bet you don't just see the
world you see the value of the world and
you don't you don't see the world and
infer the value you see the value you
see the value and and the the implicit
structure of your incon unconscious is
the is the Matrix of value through which
the world reveals itself and properly
formulated that Matrix has
a
multi-dimensional narrative structure
that's coherent that's reflected in the
structure of the biblical stories and we
know that what we say well what's the
foundational document of Western
Civilization well obviously it's the
Bible like forget the theology
historically well what does that mean
well it means
that it means it's the seed from which
your perceptual Matrix grew
you're a more or less coherent echo of
the biblical
Corpus that's what you are and the more
you know of the stories the hyperlink
Stories the more fully fleshed that
Incarnation internal Incarnation
becomes the Bible was written in concort
you might say with the obviously with
the function of the human nervous system
both individually and collectively was
woven together over thousands of years
and also evolved to match the structure
of our memories all of that and the
structure of our
attention so the postmodernists when
they realized that we saw the world
through a story which was a brilliant
Discovery and was made in many
disciplines at the same time by the way
um they jumped to the they jumped to the
next question which was well if we see
the world through a story what is the
story and they said well power and its
twin sister its evil twin sister
Hedonism but Power they were marxists
it's all about power have it your way
play with fire see what happens power
you think power is interesting too
because you might say well why would you
want Power like if I could just ask you
to walk along with me why wouldn't I do
that why would I have to exercise power
over you well how about I want you to do
something that you don't want to do well
what how about something for my
immediate gratification that's why pajo
Jonathan Paso has said that the Marque
dad is the evil brother of the
Enlightenment rational mind it's like
absolutely same thing same idea explored
by dovi in in crime and punishment with
rol
nikov yeah
brutal all right so let me say uh if I'm
understanding you correctly that to get
on the counter Enlightenment train we
could sum it up in a tongue-and-cheek
way and say facts are dead facts are
always
dead facts are always dead that's why
you can't follow them there's as many
there's more facts than there are
things you can't Orient yourself imagine
I drop you in the middle of a desert
it's like all the facts are at hand man
you're still going to die why cuz the
cuz the territory isn't the map cuz the
land doesn't speak how about that how
about all of that
right no can I give you my favorite
example of this sure okay this is true
uh what we think of as the entire world
everything that we can see is
0.35% of the available electromagnetic
spectrum right right good example so
looking at you I should see a number of
photons in a given wavelength that are
reflecting off of that fabric but I
don't I see black I see red I see gold
whatever you see tools and obstacles
uh yes for sure and once I understood oh
my God I'm seeing a rediculously gross
simplification of what is really in the
world then I realize my brain is made up
of algorithms and once I realize my
brain is made of algorithms and
algorithms are designed to push you to
see certain things to conceive of them
in a certain way I suddenly really
wanted to understand what are my
algorithms driving me to do and every
idea for sure that's why Yung said every
person has to figure out the myth that
they're Liv living w w it's the same
thing what story here's two ways of
thinking about it what story are you
acting out or what character resides in
you that's another way of thinking about
it or what Spirit have you allowed to
possess you or what Spirit have you
invited in and consorted with so such
that it can possess you so when Cain is
bitter Cain from Cain and Abel Cain is
bitter because his sacrifices go
unrewarded so he's bitter because his
work is not
successful and everyone should be able
to identify with that there's no
difference between work and Sacrifice by
the way they're the same thing we when
we work we sacrifice the present to the
Future saw that clip from your book yeah
okay okay so now Cain's work is
unsuccessful so he gets bitter and
so and he's jealous as well of Abel who
sacrifices are accepted and who's
thriving and so Cain Cain's countenance
Falls he becomes depressed and anxious
and nihilistic and resentful
and starts to shake his F fist at God he
did he does what job's wife tells job to
do when job is being tortured job's wife
says shake your fist at God and die well
Cain shakes his fist at God and
kills and so that's that's even worse um
so Cain
calls out God just like bitter atheists
do constantly and for they have their
reasons and says you know I'm what the
hell's going on here what kind of world
did you make where I'm breaking myself
in half with my labors and nothing is
succeeding and everything is bitter and
pointless and God says if you did well
you would you'd be accepted and then he
says something much much worse which you
figured out
already he said sin crouches at your
door like a sexually aroused predatory
animal and you've invited it in to have
its way with you that's dark right well
it's terrible it's terrible and there's
Echoes of this in other mythological
stories uh so what it means is that Cain
is suffering and there's there's nothing
sinful in that as such right because the
innocent can suffer Cain suffers and
then he turns in the direction of
Temptation he starts to nurse his
resentment that's another
biological metaphor to nurse your
resentment he starts to brood over his
resentment right and so what that means
is that Spirit of arrogant resentment
takes he invites it in it takes up
residence within him but then he engages
in
Creative he engages in a creative
dialogue with that spirit it's it's not
merely possession it's it's joint cons
it's conspiracy it's conspiracy between
the eternal spirit of of Darkness that's
a good way of thinking about it and a
living human soul that's what happens
when you get
resentful why talk to each other
today well I think we do a lot of I'm
not so sure that we can't I mean part of
it might be that we're talking to each
other way more than we ever did and we
and it's too
much like I don't know I these things
are all beyond my capacity to understand
I'm I'm still wrestling with what's at
the core of the culture wars let's say
although I do think that the
pathological element of it is a war on
competence um restriction about by
resentment
yeah that's what it looks like to me you
know and like I said I can understand
the
resentment you know it's it's it's
it's we have to strive not to be
wretched
there's something that doesn't seem fair
about that why couldn't we just be happy
being who and what we
are why is it that we're punished if we
don't strive well I don't know we're
neant Tropic organisms right I mean we
have to maintain this incredible
complexity in the face of a dissipating
Universe it requires
effort it's the it's this it's the
second law of Thermodynamics I believe
that's why we have to strive well why is
the world constituted that way
couldn't I guess it's an infantile
paradisal wish in some regard couldn't
we just be rewarded for who we
are I can understand
that but I don't think that it works I
don't think that's how
things I don't think things function
like that and I don't think probably in
the final analysis we really want them
to I don't know if anyone enjoys
undeserved reward
you know it it feels kind of
creepy doesn't that to be rewarded for
something you didn't do it does I'm
obsessed with this idea of the physics
of Being Human that there are just
certain things that are true that our
brain has algorithms running in them
that are going to push us to be um
striving to you know push against
entropy you know partly just to you have
to risk danger to go out and get food
and provide for your family and keep
them safe so it makes sense that you
have that pushing at your back um also
seems to me that you have an innate
drive for progress and that you'll never
be happy if you're not advancing in some
way getting better something well I
think that's technically true you know
and in maps of meaning in particular I
make a neuros pychological argument for
that based on mostly based on the work
of Jeffrey gray who I think was the
greatest neuropsychologist of the last
half of the 20th century and he drew a
lot of his ideas from Norbert Viner who
was a a cyber cybernetic theorist who
was um instrumental in development of
artificial intelligence these ideas have
a uh what would you call it a stellar
academic um
uh uh origin and positive emotion gray
laid this out better than anyone else
the positive emotion that we find
sustaining is experienced in
relationship to an unachieved goal it's
hope that drives us forward we want
something and if we see oursel moving
towards that then we're we're in the
grip of the positive emotion that we
find sustaining it isn't the attainment
attainment is satiating attainment shuts
down the system that has been striving
for that particular object of attainment
if you're hungry and you eat you stop
being hungry now that's good because the
hunger is gone but that whole frame
disappears you can no longer strive
within that frame and you need a new
frame to strive
towards and so technically and this is
well established as far as I'm concerned
we even know the drugs that people abuse
cocaine let's say amphetamines the ones
that are potent sources of positive
emotion activate the system that
regulates our emotional response to
evidence that we're moving towards a
desired goal so cocaine for example is
an exhilarating drug it makes you feel
that things are worthwhile because it
hijacks the system that does make
indicate that things are worthwhile so
this is deeply this this striving aspect
is deeply rooted in in in our in our
biology for for obvious reasons you you
covered that very well in Beyond order
and this is one of the things um that
and it it this particular thing finds
itself sort of in in many different um
of the rules but this idea that there is
an evolutionary wind at your back there
are reasons that stories contain certain
elements over and over and over and I
want to wrap this together in the
following
question I think I can give you an
example of that so there's a part of the
brain called the hypothalamus and it's
very very very old we share it with
virtually every animal that has a
nervous system it's it's sits above the
spinal cord it's extremely old
evolutionarily speaking and half of it
governs fundamental motivations so
governs hunger for example so if you're
hungry you posit the existence of
something that will satiate your
appetite a peanut butter sandwich and
then you're happy when you're moving
towards the kitchen and then maybe you
get thirsty and the hypothalamus does
that and then maybe you need to use the
washroom and maybe you're too hot and
that the hypothalamus pops up these
little motivational frames and then
emotions modulate your movement towards
the goal that's established by these
fundamental motivations but that's only
half the hypothalmus the other half is
the origin of the dop and minic system
that mediates exploratory striving and
positive emotion and so the way our our
brains are set up way below what way
below the neocortex way way older than
that the default position is if you're
satiated in all the important
dimensions then you're curious and
explore well why well because you might
find new resources that could be used
to to to uh uh satiate those fundamental
motivations in the future so that heroic
drive into the unknown is UN un
believably
archaic and then it's regulated by fear
and pain you know so you go into the
unknown well you don't want to die so if
you get damaged you experience pain and
you want to avoid pain so you experience
anxiety these are very fundamental
systems and they are reflected in our
narratives that's essentially as far as
I can tell why the dragon Hoards
treasure everywhere the dragon is an
amalgam of predatory stimuli and fire
which is a destructive Force but also
very useful so dragon is something like
predatory destructive entity you might
say well is that real it's like well
yeah but it's a meta category it's like
there are lions and Raptors and um
lizards let's say uh 60 million years
ago when we were still in
trees the idea that there's a meta
Predator is a great idea a meta Predator
is what all predators share in common
that's a dragon well what should you do
with a dragon well avoid it that's one
answer another answer is burn it out of
its layer so that it doesn't have baby
dragons the and the an even more
sophisticated answer is
well confront
it you can feed your family with the
body of a
dragon it's
treasure and then that's become
abstracted up into the unknown as such
you do agree great job of uh telling the
story of Tiamat Muk all of that in a way
where you reground it in the um actual
historical context because they talk
about when you slay the dragon you can
actually build things from it they talk
about the from pieces right Heaven and
Earth made from I thought well it's kind
of interesting and then you said no no
no they actually used to build the you
know the doorways to their cave or
whatever from the bones of the animals
that they slayed and I thought oh my god
when you put the story in that context
of you're telling the tribe something
that they're actually doing but you're
elevating it and so you're saying look
the Great Hero goes and slays the most
dangerous of the most dangerous
predatory thing and from that we're not
just creating our house we're creating
the Heaven and the Earth and I thought
whoa like you really do so I'm gonna
that's why in Christianity which is has
taken the hero myth in in a tremendously
sophisticated Direction Christ tack Les
the worst of all potential dragons and
that's the adversary that's the evil in
the human heart it's become completely
psychologized by that point or
spiritualized instead of an external
monster that's the threat and let's make
no mistake external monsters are are
threatening but then there's their ex
external monsters that are other tribes
well those are genuinely threatening too
and we can demonize a member of another
tribe at the drop of a hat but then you
take one level above that even you think
well the most dangerous thing of all is
the evil that lurks in the human heart
in the individual and that's why you
have the battle let's say between Christ
and Satan that's what that means it's
not all it
means but that's what it means and and
so what and then you ask yourself like
you can ask yourself this question very
seriously if you were thinking about the
most moral possible
action wouldn't that
be the voluntary constraint of the evil
that you yourself are likely to
do and wouldn't that mean facing human
evil in its reality as it manifests
itself inside you and wouldn't that mean
then obtaining victory over
that and you might say well is that a
Divine story
well it's
the I can't say what the relationship is
between the human psyche and
and the world as
such but we don't have a deeper story
than
that and I can't see how it's not true
and you might say well it's not true for
me it's like well don't you have a
conscience doesn't it bother
you and then can you control it and
answer to that is almost inevitably no
it calls you to
account and why well because you've
deviated from the ideal who's
ideal an ideal that's making itself
known within you at least in so far as
the objection arises you wake up at 3:
in the morning and torture yourself for
your
iniquities and you would think well I
could just shut that off it's me after
all but you can't shut it off you're
nothing compared to your
conscience now it's strange because you
can ignore it you cannot live according
to its dictates but it's not going to
leave you alone
Jordan you asked the times person uh in
the full length article or full length
recording which I listened to you said
hey don't focus on my illness in this
focus on why people resonate with my
message which she of course did not uh
but that leaves no one does oh it leaves
me an opening I'm gonna take it right
now it's so interesting to see that is
that it's so interesting because you
know the only time that ever gets
addressed is by by the mainstream media
Jesus you know a horrible cliche but
it's usually sort of brushed off and
it's usually well he seems to be
attractive towards young men who are
troubled well first of all that's not so
bad is it I mean hypothetically the most
Ardent feminist is primarily concerned
with helping the troubled young man not
be so
troubled but it's brushed off in a
cynical sort of way and it the cynicism
is also disbelief that that could
possibly be
serious a serious Enterprise well I
think it's a serious
Enterprise why do you think they
resonate with you I think it's
because who knows the final answer to
anything you know but I took what I
learned about what happened in the
second world war seriously it's like wow
we can be really bad we should do
something about
that like that was is
unacceptable well was it or not well how
unacceptable was it change your life
unacceptable better
be if you want it not to happen
again and it's not like it the next time
it
happens we make the previous time look
like a
picnic we're way more powerful than we
were you know when we're getting to the
point this something Yung talked about
especially near the end of his life
we're getting so powerful that each
individual is now a force of almost
unimaginable destructive power if they
so choose to be and that's just going
to that power is going to continue to
increase and what that means is that the
degree to which each of us has our act
together is going to be something upon
which the world increasingly Depends for
its maintenance
I'm going to add something to why I
think people resonate with you so much
um in the book you encourage people to
think from an evolutionary perspective
which I think is incredibly important
and I think what you offer people is one
you make we all struggle with our own
internal demons and you allow people to
see how that's a heroic Endeavor maybe
the ultimate heroic Endeavor to conquer
that inside of yourself and then going
back to the beginning of identity being
a function of behavior by helping people
begin to identify as the hero engaging
in relatively straightforward behaviors
like cleaning your room or like in the
new book making an area beautiful um
refusing to give into resentment aim at
one thing which [ __ ] was one of my
favorite parts of the book and see how
extraordinarily good you can get at that
like when I think about that's the good
thing is you got aim at something it's
like otherwise your life is meaningless
well what should you aim at well I don't
know well pick something pick something
aim at it as you move toward it you'll
get wiser then maybe your aim will
change that's okay but at least it'll
change in an informed way it's like
discipline yourself in one
dimension see what happens well that's
exciting and I think that's something
that's open for everyone you can do that
I shouldn't say that CU I don't believe
that I think you can find yourself in
situation that's so dire that you don't
there's no escape from it but that
doesn't matter because this still this
is the hero myth might not
be the best we have might not always
work but it's still the best we
have and the fact that it might not work
doesn't mean we should throw it
away it's still the best we have I mean
everyone dies and so we fail in some
sense the fact that a ends doesn't mean
that it wasn't worth listening
to yeah when you put that in an
evolutionary context and you acknowledge
that people are compelled by biology to
strive they're compelled by biology to
progress they're compelled by biology to
um be courageous that they will be
rewarded for being courageous
neurochemically they will be punished
for being a coward
neurochemically and yeah well think
about you know the thing about that
biological explanation too is that we've
been social for a very long time we've
been social for so long that our social
nature is programmed into our
biology and so you'll be punished if
you're not useful to other people yes by
your conscience because you're a social
creature and the question is well how
could you be most here's another
question that starts to what Verge on
the
religious what does the most useful
person look like well who is everyone
hoping they'll meet and that's a genuine
question like and that's the ideal the
ideal is the person everyone's hoping
they'll meet that's Christ in in the
Christian culture psychologically
speaking independent of any religious
claims so that's the these these this is
this is I suppose the essential idea of
the archetype from the Union perspective
we have the we have the image of an
ideal and because it is the ultimate
ideal it has a religious element it's
compelling it's a judge why is it a
judge well if you fall short of the
ideal your conscience punishes you so
it's a
judge and it's merciful well why because
if you act out the ideal then your life
improves you know and I said well the
question what is the relationship
between these images of the psyche
and
reality I I don't know the answer to
that I don't know
where the archetype Shades into
reality it depends to some degree on how
you define
reality and you know this is I've been
people don't like that
statement
but when when you're asking questions
that are deep enough you start to have
to ask what do you mean by true for
example what do you mean by real because
the questions you ask get so deep that
they're of the same kind as the question
what is real or what is
true you know if think of it this way
reality is what we adapt to by
definition that's reasonable if you're a
darwinian you have to say that's
actually as far as you can go reality is
that Which shapes us you can't get a
better handle on reality than that well
when you make a picture of objective
reality it's not the same as that it's a
different picture and it's not obvious
which one should play
Trump now the hero myth as far as I can
tell is an evolutionary
artifact and that means that for human
beings that the hero image is the path
of of optimal
adaptation does that reflect reality
well it does in so far as reality has
selected
that well does that mean that reality is
a story because the hero myth is a story
or at least that's one of the things it
is does it mean that reality has a
narrative aspect well it does in so far
as we act things
out does that mean that reality is
ultimately a story well I don't know but
the answer isn't obviously no if you
like this conversation check out this
episode to learn more but social media
and just the democratization of
everything has given us some insight
into how rotten our institutions were in
the first place there's a kind of woke
ification of the right is that is
happening like it's like professional
wrestling nobody cares that it's fake if
I