Kind: captions
Language: en
you're living in a society that is so
safe and
prosperous and comfortable that the
greatest risk to your life is your own
hands there's ingredients and chemicals
and weird things that are put in here
that are not put in the food in Europe
or in Australia and so on as soon as
someone crosses that line right and hits
someone you shoot someone attack someone
no right and that's where the rule of
law is extremely important there can't
be a tolerance of that there can't be a
tolerance of okay well you were
Justified because he thought the wrong
thing so the big thing for us in the US
is the Border okay I'll give you one of
my favorite Thomas Soul quotes it's
really interesting the first time I
heard this it hit me a so
counterintuitive but I think he's right
if there is any place in the Guinness
Book of World Records for the words
repeated the most often over the most
years without one Speck of evidence
diversity should be a prime candidate is
diversity our strength or anybody's
strength anywhere in the world it has
not been our diversity but our ability
to overcome the problems inherent with
diversity and to act together as
Americans that has been our strength so
when I look at people streaming over the
Border I'm like hey hey we should
probably check at a minimum like do you
believe in the country that exists or
are you coming in to remake the country
over because otherwise we end up in a
values war and I'm not even saying
values are right I'm just saying that
people are going to fight for their
values yes now I have a value system
that forces me to say well you want
human flourishing and if your value
system is suboptimal at delivering human
flourishing you should update your
belief system so I'm super here for that
but I don't think you get there by just
randomly dumping people from all over
the world with no filtering mechanism
whatsoever and just like fingers crossed
hope for the best given that I think
that Thomas soul is right that you
actually to overcome all that divers
everyone used to know that that was a
bad idea right that didn't used to be a
quote unquote right-wing position right
everyone Democrat Republican border or
diversity oh the Border yeah yeah I
think people have a because diversity
feels so good like it feels so right for
me anyway the way I was raised whatever
the way I'm hardwired that that is a
heartwarming belief that I love the most
I'll tell you what I think people have a
very shallow understanding and usage of
diversity these days I I think it's
become this um it's become this buzzword
which is often times I mean when it's
used by certain people certain
progressives for example they really
just mean different skin color genders
and sexualities but you all think the
same way right that's really that's
really what they mean because as soon as
there's someone who's a black or brown
conservative they're not big fans right
or when someone steps outside they're
you know very quite rigid ideology it's
not very liberal ideology they don't
they're not huge fans of freedom of
speech even um um they don't like that
so I think that I I I get asked a lot
about you know the sort of diversity
question the first thing is maybe
there's multiple things to say first
thing is that I think that natural
diversity is generally good what's
natural diversity diversity that just
the human beings is a diverse species
and so if you have a
meritocracy and you have fairness and
reasonable um access and equality of
opportunity you will naturally get
diversity if you run thought of
everything if you run a company or you
have a sports event or a music event or
anything and you just are like we just
want the best people we want the fastest
Runners we want the best basketball
players we want the best programmers we
want the best Engineers or whatever
there is a natural level because Talent
is distributed it's not just like oh
okay all the people from this place or
of this skin color or of this
nationality are just I me all the best
at this thing and so they all go in
there like you there's just a natural
level of diversity that takes place you
don't need to have quotas or affirmative
action or try to force it in this
direction or that direction Talent is
distributed is it completely um equally
across all groups no and people have
different interests and proclivities and
backgrounds you want to make it even
more obvious just look between the two
genders okay males and
females right like we we have different
interests we have generally across as
whole populations we have different uh
strengths and weaknesses there are
certain Fields where okay if you just
take the best people out of the people
who are interested in it you're going to
end up with 95% men and 5% women in this
and in this area you're going to end up
with 95% women 5% men and so whatever my
personal view is as long as there is no
one's being unfairly discriminated
against then cool let people do what
they want to do I'm not on the bandwagon
of hey we need to get everything 50/50
and make sure everything perfectly
reflects the population because you
can't do that without actual sexist and
or racist policies to discriminate
against people who are um more likely to
go into that area if you want 50% of
airline pilots to be female you will
have to unfairly discriminate against
men let's say though that you're not
stupid and so you're not gonna try to
get everything to equal the population
that that is a child's view of how to
make this work
but you really do look out at the world
I I'll give you the easy one so uh you
look out of the world and you realize
that certain zip coaches have terrible
[ __ ] education and so it's like oh
okay that's broken and because of uh the
history of um slavery in the country
that you you started this feeder system
of people into a broken system and I
know I'm I'm making because obviously
there was a moment where it really like
blacks are going to escape and Black
Wall Street and all that like I'm way
way way oversimplifying but
nonetheless a stretch of people whether
white black otherwise doesn't matter
they find themselves in poverty and now
they're they're just in a poverty
creation machine yes and that is the the
ZIP code that they're born into and so
now you're like uh I really I don't it
would be absurd to get equal percentages
everywhere but at the same time I
actually do want to fix the real [ __ ]
problem y so how do we do that I think
you go to the root of the
problem okay something
like 72% of black Americans born in this
country are born to unmarried
parents that is a
problem only
28% is 25 to 28% being born to married
parents that is a gigantic issue people
don't like to talk about this because it
makes people uncomfortable and certain
people feel convicted or feel like
you're attacking them or something like
that but if you can't talk about a
problem openly you certainly have no
chance of fixing it so that is one of
the roots of the issue the family
structure what are the environments
people are growing up in is there even a
father in the home or there fathers in
the community if the answer is mostly no
you can actually just accurately predict
everything from education success to
long-term income to incar eration rates
crime rates poverty rates so on and so
forth they're all correlated you find
the communities with the highest rates
of uh intact families and fathers in the
households they also look they lo and
behold they have the lowest incar
incarceration rates uh highest incomes
highest educational attainment and so on
and so forth so these things are firstly
you have to be able to like really just
be truthful about the issue and get to
the core of it and all the all the
different factors right I'm not saying
that's the one factor I'd say it's
certainly one of the biggest if not the
biggest um and that's also a
multigenerational fix it didn't happen
overnight like that and you can't just
fix it like that and it's not something
that you just make a political policy
which suddenly improves it so I think
I'm speaking here as a foreigner but as
a foreigner who uh cares about the USA
and does want to see people flourish
across the Bo and I think in that
specific situation I think you need some
you need the long-term solution which is
okay let's look right at the route let's
look right at the root of this and see
what's going on here and let's have a
multi-decade plan to remedy this and
then you might need to have some type of
interim solution I know that a lot of
conservatives here talk about school
choice that's not something I've looked
into that much you certainly need to
invest in improving certain schools and
communities if it's just like okay this
is a poor area and therefore all the
schools suck that shouldn't necessarily
be the situation right and it doesn't
have to be that's not an inevitable
situation that oh this is a poor
community so the schools are just
garbage right no I don't think I don't
think Americans should just accept that
I don't think they should just accept
and tolerate that this is the richest
country in the world we've got trillions
and trillions and trillions in debt but
also so um a lot more trillions talking
but also but also being sent overseas
and going to the military industrial
complex and so on like there's so much
wasteful spending that's my point this
is what's driving the question let's
let's redirect this towards our own
citizens um I do I'm not American but I
am America First for Americans right
that shouldn't be some controversial
thing or some things that's view to some
Fringe right-wing view or something it's
like no these are the citizens these are
these are the taxpayers MH so that money
and funding education's a really basic
foundational thing if if the next
generation of Americans coming up is not
well educated and a lot of them don't
even know how to read and write properly
and do basic math like that's not the
things ain't looking good in 30 40 50
years if that's the situation across
millions and millions of people and I
don't think it's a gigantic ask that hey
how about we we make it so that every
American child graduating from 9th grade
can read and do math
properly I don't think that's like a
crazy
utopian oh like that should be basic in
most countries that's basic that's like
yeah of course they can read and they
can do math and they have basic
understanding of certain things but I
think that um I'll tell you why I don't
think I've ever even said this before
but I think like I think in this country
and in the UK as well I think people
need to like raise their standards and
expectations in a way of
what I I think that just because you
know I think people get used to
things and sometimes people get used to
things that they shouldn't I'll give you
a parallel so my family's originally
from Nigeria in Nigeria for the past
several decades my entire lifetime
you've been dealing with power Cuts
blackouts sometimes multiple times a day
three four times a day every single day
for the past 40 50 years blackouts
and it's been going on for so long that
every Nigerian whether in Nigeria or in
the diaspora is just kind of like you
know that's just how it is right that's
just how it is and I'm like you
shouldn't tolerate that Nigeria exports
oil to other
countries NE you know countries like
Ghana haven't had you know they've been
they've been free of blackouts for two
decades at this point why is Nigeria
still having blackouts that's goofy how
are they having petrol shortages in a
country with as much oil resources as it
does like guys you know come on we
shouldn't just be like oh well that's
just how it is right that's just Amica
oh that's just the American education
system no no why should America have a
crap education system compared to other
countries in Europe or in Asia or in the
Middle East why should the US be behind
in that it shouldn't
be it shouldn't be like this country has
stupidly blessed Nation I mean
ridiculous amounts of resources so much
money so many entrepreneurs so much
going on and people just kind of like
accept that oh well like you know our
education system is just crapping
getting worse I'm like no or or or when
people uh kind of give up on the cities
with when it when it comes to crime or
homelessness and and like drugs and
stuff and they're just like well it's
just it's just like that it's like no it
shouldn't it wasn't firstly it wasn't
always like that it wasn't always that
way and we're moving in the future not
in the past so it should at least in
theory be getting better it should be
improving it shouldn't be like oh each
year Los Angeles or San Francisco or
California or wherever you are oh it's
just like declining you're paying more
in taxes and it's declining I think I
don't I I firstly think like there just
needs to be
more what's the right word I'm looking
for I think there's too much apathy I
think there's there's an acceptance of
the unacceptable
and I think that that should not be the
case I does it feel accurate if I call
that
culture we have a culture of apathy see
I don't think Americans generally have
this though I think America has one of
the most optimistic culture of any
country that I've been to and I've been
to over 40 moving in the right direction
holding steady trending down uh the
culture yeah an Outsiders
view us as a whole is difficult just
because it's so big it's so big and
there's 50 different states I would say
that in some ways okay let's let let's
expand the time Horizon a little bit
because I think it's easy to get caught
up in kind of the last five to 10 years
let's go let's do 100 years let's look
from 1924 to
2024 I think pretty much everyone would
agree that the country has made massive
strides and progress in the past 100
years regardless of your uh skin color
or income level whether you're a man or
a woman or you're straight or you're gay
or whatever I think it's very clearly
overall trended in a in a positive
direction I think the world has in
general um I think in the last 10 to 15
years there have
been elements of Decline and elements of
regression as well as elements of
progression I think a lot of it actually
stems from an absence of perspective and
gratitude so one reason why I
appreciate America so much is because I
have a wide Global Perspective so I
appreciate the USA often in a way that a
lot of Americans who have never left it
don't because this is just kind of like
the default and they haven't been to
other parts of the world and seeing how
people live and seeing the opportunities
and lack thereof
um and they're just like okay well you
know this this is just kind of it and
with an absence of perspective can come
an absence of gratitude and I think that
when you are not grateful for something
no matter what it is it could even be a
relationship you often tend to undermine
and destroy it sometimes without even
trying and when I look at the USA and
the way the culture is going right now I
see a lot of elements of
self-destruction I think the same is
true of the UK maybe not to the same
extent but it's similar I mean I know
for certain in the UK I don't know if
this statistic holds true in the U us as
well but it will certainly be close but
if you look at say like men under 50
what's the most common cause of death
suicide
yourself when you really think about
that that's
deep so you're living in a society that
is so safe and
prosperous and comfortable that the
greatest risk to your life is your own
hands that's
crazy right like that that when you
really think of it like that is nuts
like that just strikes at the heart of
like okay there's something really
fundamentally wrong here so we have
overcome to a large degree all of the
things that have been killing Humanity
for all of these thousands of Wars War
pestilence famine malnutrition all these
things there's more people dying of
eating too much than not having enough
to eat so we're in this weird age of
decadence and excess and surplus to a
point where on an individual and
Collective level there's a kind of
harakiri like a kind of suicide that is
going on culturally where it's turning
the guns or knives are turning
inwards
and I don't know exactly what to
make of that but when I think of
cultural decline that is the attitude
and some of those behaviors that I'm
referring to I mean in the US over
100,000 people died of overdosis last
year 100,000 and that's deaths so for
each of those I'm sure there's a
multiple of people who did overdose but
they didn't die right and then I believe
there's another 100,000 on top of that
that's um
alcohol right so that's and then you've
got like the the actual suicides and so
you've got hundreds of thousands of
people just in this country particularly
young and middle-aged men who
are for whatever reason there's a
variety of factors here but they're
they're taking themselves out and I
think that this is also happening on a
social and a cultural
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today you've got
people who are ashamed to see or put up
an American
flag yes right or who or who want to
burn it or who will say we need to
dismantle destroy you know the whole the
whole all of America is a racist white
supremacist sexist homophobic
transphobic country and we need to
destroy the whole thing like with with
these people I know they haven't
traveled firstly because because I'm
always like a question I like to ask is
compared to what you know I've had
interviews where someone will ask me
zuie do you think the UK is a racist
country do you think America is a racist
country compared to
what like compared to compared to Utopia
where everyone is zero bigotry and
everyone's um then okay yeah I mean yes
there's some there's some racism like
compared to the rest of the world no
compared to history absolutely not and I
think that that needs to be celebrated
more I think a big big big problem we're
having in the west is I think people
haven't looked up to to see the progress
that has been made the true
progress like the the the harmony
amongst different groups the fact that
this diversity sure the the diversity
thing is um you know it's become a bit
of a buzzword and people have their
different takes on it but in the true
sense people have become way more
tolerant in the good way far less
violent and hostile towards each other
far less bigoted far less any of these
isms and phobias that people worry about
they've declined so sharply not so long
ago I mean you this country had
segregation I would not last year I went
to South Africa twice I mean in my
lifetime they ended racial segregation
over there like it's not that long it's
not it's just not that long ago and it's
interesting have you been to South
Africa no it's interesting over there
because you can still um you can still
kind of feel and see the aftershocks of
it I'm sure yeah so it it's interesting
because you can be in some places and it
almost feels like I'm in like middle
England you know like everyone's I think
white people there are maybe 15% of the
population but there's some places which
are like you know it's like totally
white or you you go to a bar or
something and it's like oh it's like
it's is like a white bar you know what I
mean school of fish man and then there's
other places where it's like you know if
you were to see a white person it's like
whoa like what's that what's that person
doing there so the the his because the
the desegregation there is more recent
you can also sense that the
um it's hard to put into words but you
can kind of see and feel it a little bit
more over there compared to other
countries um and so I think we need to
celebrate those successes more man I
think the there's always different ways
to to look at history and to look at the
history of a country and you could
certainly look at America's history or
or British history look at the British
Empire right and you could certainly
paint it as you know just all built on
racism and white supremacy and slavery
and segregation and discrimination and
violence and lynchings and brutality and
so on like you can there's a lot of
stuff that you can use to paint that
story and someone can choose to do that
and they can choose to be resentful and
hold people's ancestors responsible for
things that they didn't even do if you
want I don't think that's very um
helpful or pro-social or what story
should we be telling I think it's a
story of continual progress and Triumph
over these human
sins the triumph over slavery triumph
over segregation triumph over extreme
tribalism triumph over um intolerable
violence triumph over I mean even from
even in the last few decades right like
we we now live in this time where you
know people are talking about you know
the LGBT acronym keeps on keeps on
growing but like a few decades ago
gay bashing really was a thing right
like like right like people there were
people who thought oh like that person's
gay like let's beat him up because he's
like
no like that's so in that's it's so
intolerable to even kind of think of now
but not so long ago it was normal dude
at its peak the
KKK had about four million
members
oh members not
sympathizers right like act actual white
supremacy and keep in mind the
population was smaller then right so
like at its PE at the peak of like white
supremacy in America and racism in
America they had it's estimate some
people's a know three three to four
million um so I mean I don't know
number-wise what that means but maybe
like one in 15 or one in 20 white guys
being a member of the KKK right and they
were in they had they were in Congress
they were in the police force they were
in all these types of things so when
you're hearing these people like in this
day and age you know screaming about
white supremacy and this and this and
this again it's that man like compared
to what like how many real like genuine
white supremacists are in the are in
this
country like a few thousand are there
any in like Congress or in like leading
police forces or whatever like so
there's been huge amounts of progress
that have been made and I think if
people can appreciate that I think it's
always important to on an individual
level too right to to celebrate the
successes and you realize there's work
to still do right there's Improvement to
still make we've been talking about that
there's things that can still be better
some things can be very significantly
better but in striving towards that
let's not be so reckless to just throw
away the last 50 or 100 years and
pretend that no I hear people you know
say crazy things like
um oh like all the amount of racism is
still the same it's just more subtle now
like dude stop you know what I
mean like you're going to see what you
look for though this is my my big
problem and I I think the right question
is uh what does a healthy Society
celebrate like when a culture is doing
well what is it that they celebrate and
I actually loved your answer um the
catch is that to your point about all
the deaths of Despair that young people
or young men specifically the thing they
most have to fear is themselves the
question becomes okay why you actually
had a really cool quote I'm not sure if
this is verbatim or uh if I'm I'm sort
of ballparking this but you said men
need to feel some sense of power and
usefulness in order to thrive uh and I
think that that that is indicative of
what I see as happening in our society
so everybody has already heard this but
strong men make good times good times
make weak men weak men make Hard Times
Hard Times make strong men who make good
times and you loop around and it's one
of those it's becoming trit because it's
repeated so often because it is true and
so one of the most interesting things to
look at is Rich Kids and why they so
often implode not always but a lot and I
think a big part of the reason is that
there are algorithms running in our
brain evolutionarily placed that nature
I mean it really is red in tooth and
Claw so going out and fighting for your
survival was a real daily thing for
anybody who has not seen the show alone
I highly encourage you go watch that you
really get to see even with like some
modern tools how hard it is to stay
alive like it is brutal to get the
calories and to know that other things
are looking at you as like oh your
calories so it was just grueling
difficult and then you had to worry
about other humans and all this stuff so
anyway nature had to hardwire you to get
a very strong sense of positive emotion
from doing hard things and so when you
have a society where the worst of us
have air conditioning Refrigeration a TV
and mult rooms usually it's like and
those are the worst of us here in
America you end up
disconcertingly creating this sense of
like wait I didn't earn all the things
that I have and so I start feeling
guilty I want to help others I see
people struggling I want to make things
as easy for them as humanly possible and
because I have that same impulse I know
where it comes from the problem is that
as you start thinking about I want to
buy needles for people that are
struggling with drugs I want them to you
know look it's hard to get people off
and so I want them to have dignity and
so I want to make sure they have clean
needles uh you know if they've put up a
tent somewhere I want to treat that as
private property and that you can't just
move them along and so you get all of
these really wonderful impulses that
turned into policy become deranging yes
and so now all of a sudden if you are
only judging a policy by how it feels
and not by the result that it actually
yields now you've got a problem and of
course it's even more complicated than
that and you have some people with Will
to power and they hey I don't want my
charity to go away I actually want it to
grow more powerful over time and I'm not
trying to work myself out of a job by
making sure there are no homeless
people exactly Y and so going back to
that idea of uh okay you need to judge
everything based on the results but you
also need to decide what is it that we
celebrate and if people celebrated hard
work like oh yeah look life is amazing
but you need to find a thing and do it
it needs to be hard you need to push
yourself but if I want to piss off the
internet I would go right now and and do
the tweet that always whs people up uh
Hey everybody you need to work smart you
need to work hard and you need to work
long hours it is inevitable that I will
get a just ton of people in my comments
like if I'm working hard and smart why
do I need to work long hours and the
reality is because if you want to build
something that really matters you're
going to go up against people that do
all three and that's just reality and
you will lose every time you go up
against somebody that's doing all three
of those now when it was hard as hell to
get into this country and people were
coming from all over the world escaping
persecution coming to the land of
opportunity we celebrated that [ __ ] like
we wanted you to build something we were
never paana there has always been
corruption I get that but I'm just
saying it was just in the ether man that
you celebrated people trying to build
things and do things and we wanted to
cheer them on and now as somebody who's
been here for almost 50 years
uh I see this slow shift away Elon Musk
captured this well he was like when did
a billionaire become a pejorative yes he
was like this used to be something that
people celebrated aspir and yeah like
dude it it I had my head down for so
long just trying to get rich not having
come from money that by the time I
picked my head up I realized oh people
think it's gross now and I was like wait
what like i' I've worked so hard to
build something that people want so much
that they would rather have the thing
that I've created than the money that it
cost them and I reap the benefits of
that in my own life but bro I was heads
down solving problems that people wanted
to solve and it was grueling and there
was no promise that it was ever going to
work out and so when you start going
that's not worthy of Celebration it's
like be careful because now all of a
sudden what you're incentivizing is in
this case we've we have come to
celebrate victim mentality the problem
is check the results when you get
celebrated for being a victim it doesn't
feel good you're you're out of alignment
with what I will call the evolutionarily
placed algorithms running in your brain
and so now you've won one and you feel
clout because I'm a bigger victim and
you feel righteous and that you have one
over on people and at the same time
you're doing drugs and you're dying
deaths of Despair because it is just so
out of alignment with a human animal
that has come up over Untold tens of
thousands of years depending on when you
clock us as humans probably hundreds
hundreds of thousands of years that it
really was grueling difficult and so
that had to be neurologically rewarded
and so when you take that person and you
celebrate them for don't worry uh you've
been hard done by the system is stacked
against you you shouldn't even try like
just let us come in and Nanny you and
take care of you and then the nannies
feel good about being nannies and they
perpetually want to keep people in that
situation like it deranges real fast and
think people need only ask what is my
norstar the things you're doing what
outcome are they yielding things moving
in the wrong direction they feel good
yes they feel good but they're just the
data is not good yes uh this generation
will be the first generation that lives
less time than their parents uh we have
more homeless at least in California
than in any time that I know of uh more
people dying from drug overdoses than
any time I mean just on and on like
there's all these super gnarly metrics
you've talked about so much there I have
so many thoughts I think the first thing
that's important to say is that
those angry perhaps jealous and envious
people and critical people who are
leaving who would leave mean comments on
such a thing they're a minority and I
think it's always important to remember
that most people
are
aspirational and actually the
celebration of success at least in the
USA is more common
than the victim mentality or the
billionaires bad millionaires bad
mentality I know that there are people
who have that and there probably always
will be some segment of the population
with those views and we can we'll get
into that but the vast majority of
people still want to be successful and
they Aspire and are they are inspired by
and motivated by people who achieve it
right so you can push all the body
positivity and fat acceptance you want
but people still look up to the guy or
the gal who's clearly built an
impressive physique and who is in good
shape and they still want to watch the
Olympics and they still want to watch
sports and top tier athletes and that's
how we are right human beings like
Heroes we like aspirational stories we
like people who show us what we are
capable of and what our potential is yes
is there a segment of the population
that's gets mad at that they are that's
their that's their issue second thing i'
say with that is a lot of people who are
in that latter category a lot of it is
just driven by Envy and jealousy that's
the truth of it and envy and jealousy or
sins and those are not emotions that
they're emotions that we all can
occasionally feel but you should
transmute that into inspiration and
motivation anytime I feel even the
slightest Pang of
Envy like it's almost imperceptible for
me I can't remember the last time I was
like truly envious of someone because
I'm just motivated ated or inspired if I
see someone out there has done something
or has something or has achieved
something that I would like for myself
in some way or even if I don't I just
think it's cool I'm a celebrator I'm not
a hater I'm like dude that's awesome
like I love that like I you know I'm in
the studio I'm like dude this is the
studio is cool like I'd love to have a
studio like this in the future and so
that's awesome and I think this is
happening on a bigger scale than ever
now just cuz we have the internet and
social media so I think the haters are
hating harder than ever before but the
people who uh want to be inspired and
motivated gosh it's never been easier to
have mentors you know even just by
clicking the follow button on someone
you it's truly incredible like the fact
that I'm you know yesterday you know I
obviously had Elon Musk on my podcast
last year but the fact that I can just
like message him like we were chat you
know we're chatting yesterday I'm just
like I'm talking to freaking Elon Musk
like how what like this is this is crazy
right like you can just Reach people wow
like I'm so inspired by this guy I've
been following this person for decades
whatever it is and you can just you can
reach out to them and spread the
knowledge and have conversations and
other people can tune in and listen um
so in terms of uh you know I do think
the the reason why certain
narratives that promote and encourage
some form of victim mentality the reason
why they can be so powerful I think it's
it's mult it's multiple reasons normally
there is some kernel of Truth to them
right so it normally takes a kernel of
Truth and then it just expands it and
oftentimes creates an oppressor class
right so everything you were saying
about historical racism and
discrimination in the USA like that is
that's all true okay but also all the
stuff we said about the progress that
has been made and the opportunities that
exist regardless of your background and
so on all of that is also true the idea
that the game is rigged against you I
mean it's true in a way I mean I mean
there are look at the the fed and the
money printing like infl inflation just
that alone just looking at like the
money system and inflation and how that
disproportionately affects particularly
people who are of lower classes and
don't have as much income and don't have
as much assets it's much much harder on
them than people who have a lot of
assets and real estate and whatever and
so as inflation takes place the value of
their net worth actually is going up as
other people are struggling to buy basic
groceries in that sense you could say
actually the system if you if by that
you mean the monetary system and the way
some of these politicians and
bureaucrats move yeah actually that is
rigged against kind of everybody to an
extent um so there's some truth to it
but I think the reason why a lot of
people latch on to it hard is because it
gives a permanent Alibi this is why I
I've thought for a long time of why
victim mentality is so appealing and yes
I think people like having an enemy but
I also think people like having a
permanent Alibi and excuse for their
absence of success so if I fail or I
don't succeed or even if I behave badly
I could say oh this is because the
system is biased against me in some way
shape or form it's not my issue and I
don't need to take accountability
because it's just the system there's a
narrative for this for people of
different skin colors there's a
narrative of it for men there's a
narrative for women there's a narrative
for everybody so anyone no matter who
you are where you are like there's a
victim narrative that you can use and
some people will empathize with and
sympathize with because there's that
element of truth to it and I think
oftentimes people like to kind of like
Bond over the bond over how they're
victims rather than in how they can
achieve success and Achieve Victory so
with it all I mean the the point I often
make with people because I get in a lot
of these conversations because I I get a
lot of push back because I I I'm very
sort of anti- victim mentality and I
like to focus on the positive and
optimism and the opportunities and the
things that not just why things are take
okay I'm a big Fitness guy okay um the
obesity rate now right now in the US is
hovering around 40% on track to hit 50%
within about a decade um you know as it
currently goes you'll get to a point not
so long in the future where literally
90% of the population is overweight or
obese and only 10% are you know of a
healthy weight in shape and is it true
that there's a lot of garbage that is in
the American food system absolutely and
I can say that as someone who travels a
lot right there's ingredients and
chemicals and weird things that are put
in here that are not put in the food in
Europe or in Australia and so on um is
there just an abundance of cheap
calories yes is are certain healthy and
nutritious Foods getting more expensive
yes certainly per calorie compared to um
you know cheaper less nutritious Foods
is there a lot of advertising and
marketing and fast food joints on every
corner and all of that yes that is true
there are many things you know are
people living more sedentary Lifestyles
than ever before yes there are many
things working against people to stay
physically healthy I completely concede
all those points and but with all of
this stuff Tom it comes down to like
okay well what are you gonna do about
it I don't have control over how much
money the bank of England or the FED
decides to print I don't have influence
over the advertising policies or which
Pharmaceuticals or foods are uh pushed
and what's advertised I don't have
control over all of the other people and
all the politicians in the system and
the at best we have control over
ourselves and as we all know that is
hard in
itself right just controlling yourself
and doing the things dayto day hour to
hour that you know you're meant to be
doing that is a massive battle so that's
why I tend to focus on that because it's
internal versus external locus of
control I can talk to someone who's
Rants and Raves about all of these
different systems and historical issues
and things happening right now that are
making it harder for the average Joe or
Jane to live and to thrive and so on but
it comes down to just okay so if I give
you all
that what are you going to do are you
going to just accept that and say okay
for the next 50 60 70 years I'm going to
just give up right or I'm just going to
complain about it I'm just going to
Tweet about it online and be angry and
get mad at the people who managed to win
or are you going to be like okay you
know
what I'm I'm in like the top 1% of
privileged individuals who have ever
walked this earth look if you were born
in the USA or the UK
or another developed Western Country
let's say in the past 70 80 years just
that
alone you are massively privileged just
having an American C just have just
being an American citizen we're being a
British Citizen and and then then if you
add on top of that being able-bodied not
having some you know serious physical or
or mental disability just that alone you
have a ridic ridiculous number of
advantages and quote unquote privileges
compared to most people I mean to be in
the top one I know that obviously things
you know cost of living differs in
different nations of course but I think
to be in the top Global 1% of income
earners you need to earn around $35,000
a year so if you earn $35,000 or more
per year you are in the global 1% of
income earners 99% of the world's
population earns under $35,000 a year
most people don't know that but just
just that alone even if they know it
though it's not going to change their
sense day to day it doesn't but the the
point is just having that perspective
and being able to recognize okay I have
issues we have issues the nation the
state there are there are problems but I
think number one it's like okay it could
be way way way way way worse and it has
been way worse in the past and it is way
worse in most countries around the world
um so
let's have us you can you can
simultaneously have
gratitude and also want things to be
better like these are not it's not a
it's not a dichotomy like they're not
mutually exclusive I think there let me
take a swing at this tell me we think
about this all right there are three
doors before you door number one is uh
victimhood by all means walk through it
and it has its pluses and minuses door
number two is the um path of individual
self-improvement Improvement door number
three is swaying culture
mhm do you see those as three valid
doors or because what you've been
talking about now is um where I spent
99.999% of my life and can feel myself
um going through a transition where I
previously in fact if you go back far
enough seven years ago I said and this
is going to be very close to a quote I
don't focus on the culture or Society I
focus on the individual I just want to
do me and I'm going to get as good as I
can get booze don't block dunks I can do
anything I want whether the deck is
stacked against me whether I'm a victim
it's all irrelevant uh I can get so good
I can't be stopped and I spent a ton of
my life there now I'm beginning to
realize I can sway culture and I have a
an operating system that tells me that
ideas matter that you can influence what
ideas people hold and if they change the
ideas that they if the way I really
think about it is those ideas are
beliefs or values which is why I started
this conversation of values if you can
change what people value and what they
believe then you change their entire
frame of reference their frame of
reference controls their outcome so then
I go huh there's a lot of weird [ __ ]
going on this moment feels particularly
interesting now one of two things is
possible either we really are in the
west living in a transitional moment or
we're not and as you approach 50 no
matter what you just start thinking you
are because you know the kids today
right like they're just they see things
so differently you stop feeling like you
recognize the world that began to happen
to me in my mid-40s so it's entirely
possible that's an illusion that just
happens to everybody in their mid-40s to
50s that the world now is just so
different from when you were a kid you
can't help but think whoa like you wake
up to this sense of maybe I should try
to have influence in the world but I
actually think that while that's true
the predominant thing is this really is
a transitional moment that is very
reminiscent of the 60s and so just
perfect storm uh money printing which is
something hopefully we'll have time to
talk about is playing a huge part in
this um the kids Futures have been
stolen from them uh they can feel that
and I'm finally now at a position where
I can actually articulate oh I know
exactly how your future was stolen from
you which is really terrifying yes it's
terrifying because uh it it happened
broad
daylight but because people don't
understand the way the world works and
it takes a very long time so the the
whole thesis of my show is uh you can
think of it as an unbiased pursuit of
the truth you can think of it as
debating the world's most important
ideas uh you can think of it as mapping
great thinkers Minds so that you can use
them as your own AI at the end of the
day I need to understand how the world
really works not so I can cry about it
so that I walk through the right of
those three doors now I hope every word
out of my mouth and everything about my
life tells people people to slam door
number one shut don't [ __ ] waste your
time being a victim you will you will
literally die a death of Despair I don't
mean that figuratively I mean that
literally uh door number two is awesome
but I'm now I have a growing hypothesis
that door number two merely prepares you
for door number three now door number
three for most people is probably just
the family but once you understand that
the family so you've got the diad which
is the first moment where you're like oh
my significant other is a life outside
of me that I care about then you have
kids full disclosure anybody who's
followed me for a while knows I don't
have kids but I get that this is the
first real complete unit of uh the
grander structure that is society and so
doing that well is very wise but there
is also just a scale up from that which
is to really try to influence culture in
the hope that at least in your I'll use
country as a standin uh at least your
country you can impact things in a way
that will make life better for people
now all you're really trying to do is
sway that frame of reference yes so I'm
trying to celebrate things that alter
your value system I'm trying to uh hold
quote unquote facts which we could
derail on that but you're trying to sway
people's understanding of the facts to
be checked against reality the very
first thing that you said here so that
the things they do don't just sound good
on paper they actually work
but if I'm right about all of that and
as soon as I stop talking in nine
seconds you'll tell me uh if I'm right
about that then we have to understand
how the world really works and I believe
we now live in the age of conspiracy and
I believe
that people doing dumb [ __ ] has earned
that right I'm going to stop there I
first want to get your read on the three
doors sure thing well I was thinking
that um you know doors two and three are
not mutually exclusive I think I think
you want to walk through both of them
and I think that the further you walk
through the second door oftentimes the
more impact you can have when you do
walk through the third one because you
can't pour water from an empty jug so if
you have not done anything to reach your
own
potential then number one you don't have
much to teach and you don't have a lot
of resources if any to give be that time
or money or experience or knowledge you
have to go on you have to develop
yourself individually as a person in
order to have any type of positive
cultural impact if you and
I had not done any type of
self-improvement or education or
knowledge or achieved any type of
success in any
field well firstly why would anyone
listen to this podcast
right the podcast wouldn't be possible
to begin with um but by doing that you
then gain The Leverage to help other
people in different ways the way you
shift culture can look very different
for different people right you don't
need to be a wealthy person or
materially successful necessarily there
are people who you know they earn a very
modest living and they're out there but
you know they've raised eight kids and
they have 30 grandkids and they're a
pillar in their community and they're
just a good solid person who people look
up to and they're like hey I want to be
like that guy that guy's going to you
know he knows his stuff and he can pass
on knowledge to his children and his
grandchildren and so on and he's just
making that making that type of impact
and then there can be someone else who's
a wealthy philanthropist and they're you
know donating to genuine causes that are
helping to move the needle especially in
areas where the government or the state
is not helping out and they're hey I'm
going to build a school or I'm going to
do this or I'm going to do that um but
you can't you can't do any of that
unless walk through that second door
because you have to achieve something
first and also the more you achieve as
I've said before human beings are
aspirational
so the more you achieve in that door
people other people see it other people
see it and they are you know all all
human beings are we're all followers to
some degree some people flip between you
know if you are a leader you still flip
between leading sometimes and following
Sometimes some people are more in the
following role but we all look for
leaders we all look for individuals who
show us I mean our parents are the first
version of that in most cases where it's
like okay like what do I model myself
after how do I live my life so yeah I
think
um I think yeah doors two and three yeah
I'm I'm with you close door one shut and
and keep it shut and yeah two and three
as you proceed through your life I I
don't even think they're concurrent
doors I think you continue to
self-improve
and to better yourself and improve
yourself and fulfill your potential and
at the same time you have that Community
or cultural impact um for some people
like I said it's going to be in a you
know for a small minority of people it's
going to be in a massive way Elon Musk
right it's going to be a whoa okay this
guy's really he's trying to make us a
multiplanetary species right like kind
of hard to go kind of hard to go bigger
than that um but it doesn't need to be
on that level and it doesn't need to be
so public for everyone right most of the
good that exists in the world I would
say is done in private and it might not
get a lot of shine it might not go viral
on social media or make the news or
anything like that but there's just that
day-to-day good and and by the way this
is one of the things that you know we
were talking a lot about the darkness of
humanity and this is one of the things
that makes me like a permanent
Optimist and a genuine lover of human
beings and this is the those just unseen
unheard day-to-day interactions and
pleasantries when I come come across
someone who really thinks like the whole
world is falling apart or the country is
falling apart and you know there's going
to be a Civil War in six months and you
know everything's zie everything's going
crazy and this and that and you there's
GNA be a race war and this and that and
you know men and women are just hating
each other and I'm always like firstly
get offline right like go go outside
like go into go into any City walk
around La walk around London walk around
New York walk around Dallas Miami
whatever does this look to you like
everyone is hating each other and the
left and the right are beating each
other up and there's a civil war
impending and black and white people
can't get on whatever like just look
around like people are doing all right
and this this goes for other countries
as well right in most Nations maybe
unless you go literally into a war zone
um things are generally looking pretty
good and I think it's important to not
get um there's something interesting
I've noticed over the past few years
which is that um you know I think when
people think
of of of dopamine or think of things
that are addictive they tend to think of
something that is giving someone like a
positive
feel and I think it's often forgotten
that you can get that from negativity as
well you can really get addicted to fear
narratives and anger narratives and
outrage
easier yeah it's very it's very
addictive and I think people forget that
and they get locked into this Loop and
they don't realize like how much they're
enjoying telling themselves this
narrative that it's all falling apart
and it's all crumbling and you know
here's the thing though I CU you're
right and I love that you're optimistic
and and I worry sometimes that people
don't understand that my default
position is optimism uh however I'll
keep coming back to my hypothesis and if
I'm wrong just tell me how sure go ahead
but my hypothesis is this none of that
happens by accident the very reason that
when you go walk around the city you
meet incredible people is that people
are paranoid that some people are like
hey I'm worried about a race riot
whatever which PS 2020 from my balcony
you could literally watch La burn uh
during the riots so it actually happened
like there was real violence and we have
gone backwards in race relations as far
as I can tell from when I was a kid
until now we've moved backwards yes so
now I'm like oh [ __ ] like this is not a
oneway arrow where everything just
automatically gets better this is about
the Battle of ideas the the fight for
culture to be frank it was and it was it
was progressives that did that people
who call themselves Progressive that
that did not come from the right I will
aggressively agree with that the look
both sides have their delusions and my
whole thing is you need Dynamic tension
I've given that speech so many times but
nonetheless things will move in a bad
Direction and they will go all the way
to hundreds of millions of people dying
and so that that is history tells me so
that is not me guessing just history
tells me so and hey by the way
everybody there there are very credible
people who are like Europe is already in
the middle of World War III it just
hasn't managed to work its way through
the escalation complex yet it will uh
and we will very rapidly see that this
doesn't stop it just takes time to work
through the system now I'm not
deterministic like I'm deterministic I
don't think that's the necessary end yes
not to confuse anybody um but it won't
happen avoiding that won't happen by
accident people are going to have to
make the right decisions uh culture will
not automatically move in the right
direction people have to make the right
decisions Ray Delio uh who I think is
one of the greatest living thinkers
certainly economically but I think he
really he has succeeded in economics
precisely because he understands human
psychology
and um he gets this idea that everything
is about people treat and that these
ideas can very rapidly fall off the
rails and that you have to find ways to
bring people back on and so what I want
to see people do is that to understand
and engage with okay you need to find
love you need to fill your heart with
love this is what I always tell people
don't go into a fight to be right fill
your heart with would love figure out
how you bring people back together but
understand that you're really going to
you really are going to have to fight
for these ideas yes well Tom this is why
I think the work you do is important
this is why I think the work that I do
is important just by having these
conversations and beaming it out to
hundreds of thousands or even millions
of people it helps to maintain sanity
the most common thing that people say to
me if I get recognized public anywhere
in the world whatever City whatever
country one of the most common things
that people say to me is you help me to
stay sane thank you for helping me just
stay sane I was going through this
period whether it was the the pandemic
area or it was just whatever it might be
Soo sociocultural they're just like
you're just a sane voice
that is like a pillar for me because
there's so much
inflammatory angry hostile stuff out
there and sadly our so-called leaders
have not been doing a great job of
demonstrating how people can disagree
civy how to articulate an argument how
to empathize with different positions
and listen and not result to insults and
AD hominum and all of those things it's
falling on I would just say like an army
of normal decent people and that Army is
growing particularly through the power
of social media and podcasting we're now
all able to how many do you know how
many guests you've had on this podcast
uh we're closing in on a thousand
episodes not all of those are unique
guests but call it 800 800 okay
so if you just think of like the network
effect of that and you think of all the
different podcasters you've obviously
got got Joe Rogan out there who's you
know got this giant what but all of
these independent you could call it
Independent Media all of these voices
and then then you add in uh you add in X
or Twitter you add in Instagram you add
in Facebook all these different
platforms if you look at mainstream
media Legacy
media in terms of news media like it's
declining even in terms of Hollywood and
what all these things that have been
these Legacy institutions for our entire
lives and before it in terms of
viewership in terms of audience in terms
of trust they're generally declining and
all these this long tale of Independent
Media is bubbling up and people trust it
more because whether or not you agree
with someone so someone can be listening
to this whole conversation there will be
people who generally agree more with you
on certain things people who generally
agree more with me on certain things or
you know it's just some mix but we're
both acting in good faith you're not
trying to misre misrepresent me I'm not
trying to misrepresent you we're trying
to understand each other play through
different ideas and you do this over the
course of of what thousand different
conversations which are then heard by
millions of people and it's important
because you're not just discussing the
ideas but you're also demonstrating the
process I often hear people saying like
oh it's like impossible to have
conversations these days or like how do
you know how do I do and I'm like if you
act in good faith if no matter how much
two people disagree as long as they are
acting in good faith and they're not
trying to like straw man or undermine
the other person or you know try to
stick a n label on them or whatever as
long as they're just acting in good
faith and genuinely trying to understand
each other well number one if people are
talking they're they're not fighting and
I always say there's only three ways to
solve any
conflict discussion in
diplomacy separation segregation divorce
or physical violence those are only
three options so I'm a huge fan of the
first one as long as people are having
conversations and debates and they're
discussing ideas and having
conversations then they're not they're
not physically um at war with each other
on any scale so this is one reason why
I'm a massive advocate for freedom of
speech even if sometimes it can make
people uncomfortable because it's like
well as long as people are talking and
they're discussing the ideas and
chopping through them I do believe that
the best ideas float to the top why do
you think that when people are pushing
terrible ideas where whatever side
that's coming from why do they rely on
censorship good ideas don't need to be
protected via censorship
good ideas you can can can be challenged
if something is a good idea it can stand
up to challenge it can stand up to
scrutiny it's not afraid people aren't
afraid to debate it you know when people
are on like super dodgy territory or
when they're pushing something that is
antisocial or genuinely harmful because
it's like okay we need to we need to Ram
this through and censor anybody who
takes any type of issue with it that's
when you that that should be like a
massive warning sign to people right if
you look his story the sensors aren't
the good guys uh the people relying on
censorship yeah they're they're not the
good guys so you know I'm optimistic
because I think that this is just a
break through time in humanity I mean
through the power of this technology for
as much issues and problems as social
media has has caused to people which I
think is Al people are also starting to
wake up to now and starting to get a
better understanding of how to manage it
more um despite all of those issues it's
created just it's fundamentally changed
the way we communicate permanently
and I think we're still extremely early
in that I don't know exactly what it
looks like but the world is smaller than
it's ever been um I was just in Canada
yesterday I did an event there over the
last couple days
and it's my first time in Canada in
20-some Years first time going there for
career reasons and you know on paper I
know that I have I knew that I had like
fans and some type of audience in Canada
but just to be there in like you know
Victoria British Columbia which is like
a pretty like woke part of Canada and I
meet like hundreds of people who are
like you know want to meet me and hug me
and like man like you're this and this
and this and I'm like gosh like I live
in Dubai and same you know same thing
kind of happens there it's like it's
Global people are listening to this
podcast from 100 plus different
countries and that's magic to me that's
almost like magic to me like this has
never existed before the audience that
you have is no historic leader had a
global audience even close to this
before you know maybe like the Queen of
England or something but this is just
totally new it's amazing um I meet
people in different parts of the world
who have learned English from listening
to podcasts like this like that's how
they learned English hey I I wanted to
understand Jordan Peterson so I learned
English like I've learned I met I told
Joe I told Joe Rogan this that when when
I um last time I was like Joe I've met
multiple people in different parts of
the world who learned English by
listening to your
podcast you're going to speak very
different English if you learned from
Joe and you from Jordan yeah but but but
just like that just the fact that that
can happen is amazing and that that
Genie is not going back in the bottle I
agree with you on all that let me ask
you a sort of wolves howling in the
background conversation uh starter here
um the as I've researched more world
history as I've started looking at
events that are happening now I really
do think that we've entered the age of
conspiracy and I say that in in a very
specific Way co gave me a thread to pull
on because I never thought about living
in an age of conspiracy just never
really made my radar I assume the
government had my best interest at heart
I thought that inflation I literally
thought this I thought inflation was
just a natural law of nature okay that
that just happened to money I never
thought about why I just thought that
that's what happened that's why we need
to fix the schools man
and for a whole host of other reasons
but yes and now the more I look at this
the more I realize oh wow like we're
being manipulated left right and center
and the manipulation as far as I can
tell is two things both more in public
and therefore ripe to be dismantled and
accelerating because social media
doesn't just allow us to reach out to
people until Elon expose what was going
on with social media via the Twitter
files it also allowed the government to
literally just open a pipeline r K is
talking about this a ton 72 hours after
Biden took office he opened a portal
into the major social media companies to
give the government access to uh get
blocked what they wanted blocked that's
that's insane AI is being trained I mean
we all saw it like when it got
ridiculous with Google Gemini where uh
George Washington is black black Naz is
like absolutely crazy but again that's
that's manipulation where up it suddenly
spills over and you see but you suddenly
realize whoa whoa whoa like I'm being
being manipulated all over the place
okay so the reason that you first made
my radar and the reason that I wanted to
have you on the show is when you start
peeling the onion back and you realize
all of these things really are true
there really are conspiracies not that
every conspiracy is true but there
really are conspiracies there are really
people in the government trying to
manipulate you there are really um
Corruptions within the government in the
US everywhere everywhere uh so you start
seeing all this stuff as true now you
are able to have an open mind and not
have your brain fall out but you're also
very able to be early on very contrarian
thinking so uh BLM comes out and you're
just like yeah no this this is a grift
hard I'm just going to tell you right
away and um D the amount of flack I got
from that well so what I want to
understand though is what rubric are you
using to think through these problems so
that you don't get swept away in
cultural energy because what happens to
most people is they get swept away in
cultural energy and therefore if I'm
trying to manipulate people I need only
sway public opinion this is why they
want to censor because people are
actually very easy to sway at the level
of culture if their voice goes
unchallenged so how do you navigate that
knowing uh some people are trying to
manipulate me but there is some way that
you use to find what is true without
just going everything's a lie I think
it's always hard to answer questions
about ourselves because you know I only
know so much about myself so I don't
know why I do all the things I do and
why I believe all the things I do
startlingly true answer for all of us
yeah so I think one part of it is my
personality type so I am extremely low
in
neuroticism I did it you know the Big
Five personality test I actually did
Jordan Peterson's one and I came out in
the one one percentile of neuroticism
meaning like 99% of people are more
sensitive to negative emotion than me
this includes fear this includes sadness
depression worry all these type of
things so all through my life when other
people panic or get scared or super
worried or anxious about something I
always tend to be like just in terms of
my wiring I'm calm I'm I'm calm in the
storm I'm calm in the fire so I don't I
don't know that fight or flight response
kind of thing maybe for me it's just not
as it doesn't kick in in the way that
other other people does and you know a
lot of people like they're very easily
easy to emotionally hijack right you
scare them or you upset them or you
anger them and they raise their voice
they're angry they're shouting they're
screaming or you know they're sad
they're crying they're I'm just like it
can be quite hard to even tell if I'm
I'm always happy but even if I was sad
people would still think I'm happy
because I just don't really change that
much so I think that's a that's a factor
so my emotions are just kept in check
and I on on top of that I just tend to
think sort of rationally and logically
I'm also very Solutions oriented so I
tend not to be like oh my gosh I'm this
is bad I'm angry my brain immediately
tends to go okay what's the what's the
way through this what's the best course
of action what's the solution so that is
definitely I think that's that's a core
part of it I'm very intellectually
curious as well and I don't tie my
identity totally in my beliefs
so you or someone else can challenge my
beliefs or question them or someone can
even ridicule them and again a lot of
people have no separation between their
beliefs and their ideas and their
identity and I think with that their
self-esteem and their self-worth which
is why if you challenge or criticize an
idea that they have they take it
extremely personally and they very
quickly get angry sometimes there's
people will as you said will get violent
over that because to them that you're
attacking me you're not attacking my
belief you're attacking me and I've
somehow managed to disassociate those
things to some degree even for beliefs
that are very important and integral to
me I just don't take it that personally
um so I think that helps because it I
can see things kind of more clearly and
try to understand from a different side
and I and I genuinely want to um another
point is that I don't have an agenda
there's a lot of people out there who
are like like I see these like actual
conspiracy theorists on the on the
internet and they're you know trying to
work out like what's my agenda what's my
angle what side Am I who who am I funded
by which uh you know what grift am I
pulling or whatever it's like none like
I want to know what's true I'm not um
trying to I'm not certainly not funded
by some organization I'm not part of
some Illuminati or I'm not a Freemason
or whatever whatever people think um and
I I just want to know what's I just want
to know the truth I'm not trying to
there are people when something happens
they're immediately thinking how do I
use this to Ram down my ideology I'll
tell you a great example when you always
see this happen any high-profile
shooting takes place in the USA
immediately before the bodies are even
warm you have the hardcore leftwing
anti-gun gun control like they're not
even thinking about the victims or like
they're just IM immediately politics
like how can we Ram down let's use this
moment BLM great example ah this is a
flash point yes yes this horrible thing
yes let's immediately use this to Ram
down our political ideology right and
then you can have that on the inverse
depending on what the situation is so
these are not people who like really
want to know what's true they don't they
don't know that did George Floyd die
because of racism did he die because of
drugs did he die because of um police
misconduct they don't
care right it was a black man died white
police officer boom that's our narrative
Ram it down the people so these are not
honest actors they're too ideological
they're activists right I'm not like
that I don't have uh and many of these
things I I don't have a dog in the fight
because sometimes it's not even my
country I'm not an American for example
but um I just want to know what is true
like what what's the truth here what
happened and so I tend to respond slower
something happens and I'm not like oh
let me give my hot take on Twitter right
now it's just like o okay what's
happening here let's see this play out
right sometimes you even hear you hear a
video snippet or or you see something
and it's like okay well what was the
full context of it some people just hear
that snippet Jump On It react to it boom
it like spread it all over the place now
and then it turns out two days later
that actually what was said was quite
different to what people understood so I
think some of that is just again not I
don't have an agenda so that certainly
helps and then I I will honestly say the
last one
is how would I put it I I think it does
tie back to what we were talking about
initially which
is
Faith um because Faith does a few faith
faith practically does a few things for
me number one is that it it snuffs out a
lot of fear there's a lot of people who
have a lot of fear that I don't have
because I tell people like I Fear God I
don't fear man so if there's something
that you know I believe is truthful but
I might oh it might upset some people or
I might get some back lash or someone
might leave a nasty comment or something
I'm like I don't care right if if it's
like hey this is true or like it's true
and it needs to be said like there's
there's an importance in saying this
thing then I just put that out there and
as long as I feel like I believe that
yeah that is something that is it's good
and it's righteous and again I'm not I'm
not lying I'm not pushing some agenda or
anything like that then okay like there
then there it goes so I think that
combination of things for me personally
oh and and i' and I'd say the last thing
as well is perhaps just um maybe the
last thing is just a level of
humility where I understand that I can
be wrong and I'm not um I'm not afraid
to say that I find a lot of people are
like afraid of the idea that they even
could be wrong and I'm not like when I
do a podcast or even when I tweet like
I'm it's very stream of Consciousness
I'm thinking through these answers as as
I'm talking you know you ask me a
question or we're bouncing ideas and
some of the ideas are better formed than
others cuz some of them I've really
thought about and perhaps even
articulated before whereas other things
like what I'm answering right now I'm
like H that's a good question I don't
really know let me think to myself what
do I use to what are the personality
traits or Frameworks that I use to try
to get to the truth and try to stay calm
in the storm and so yeah I think that's
a combination the the willingness to
say hey I could this is what I think I
could be wrong I'm willing to I'm
willing to update I'm open to challenge
which is why I've never um you know I've
been on Twitter for 15 years I have not
once ever blocked off the comments or
like you know not allowed people to go
like nope come at me right like like I
want I want to I'm putting this idea out
here let's test it right people can
sometimes I put one out there and you
know like that's interesting feedback
like whatever whatever the case may be
but it's just like okay cool I can learn
and I also want to know not just what I
think but I do I'm very curious as to
what other people think because we all
have different Frameworks and we all
have different angles and perspectives
and Truth is a truth is an interesting
thing what do you mean by that what I
mean is that multiple things can be true
at once and things can be true from
different
angles and I think often times in
conversation and lots of these cultural
political conversations for whatever
reason maybe I do have a reason I think
I might know the reason but people get
locked into binaries very often as in
it's either that one or it's either that
one and people act like there's no
middle or that two things can't be true
at once and I don't know if this is just
like a cognitive flaw that people have
or something where they struggle to
understand that okay that can be true
but that can also be true right it can
be true that the the food industry and
big Pharma and the advertising industry
are um you know putting profits over
people and they're using dodgy
advertising and too many chemicals and
they're they're poisoning your food and
da d da right that whole narrative that
can be true it can also be true that hey
buddy you're fat because you don't
exercise at all and you're eating way
too many calories compared to the amount
that you're burning and your your
lifestyle is the reason why you are so
overweight they can both be true right
someone will be no no it's not that it's
not that person's fault at all it's just
it's all the food company it's all it's
like well how come any American is in
shape then if it were just the food
company theoretically like every single
person in the country would be
overweight like no one would be jacked
no one would be that's clearly not the
case so yeah there is personal
responsibility in here there is
accountability right there are things
that you can control you could say hey
this thing is getting harder okay so
someone could say yay um it's getting
harder to buy a
property the prices are outrunning the
wages you know this is happening does
that mean that a person should not
aspire to ever buy a property someone
who wants one who wants to have a home
should they just say oh well the game is
rigged against me and there's inflation
and there's this like that can all be
true but it's also like well yeah but
there's things you can do to still
win and um coming back this circles out
around back to the um the idea of
Despair I think one of the reasons for a
lot of the despair that's happening in
our Nations is um I think some of it is
from an I think the game is and always
has been rigged to some degree and
always will be I think some of the over
ring of it or what some of the
downstream effects of that are one of
the reasons for the despair but and then
I think on top of it I think when you
put the victim mentality on top of it
that's like a double dose of Despair
it's like yeah things are getting harder
in certain ways oh and also by the way
there's nothing you can do about it so
why don't you just drink yourself and
Drug yourself into Oblivion you know uh
there are other factors of course you
can talk about this issue from multiple
angles I do think that for men in
particular one of the challenges that
people are having in the modern West and
perhaps across just developed countries
I wouldn't be surprised if this is also
true in maybe places like Japan or South
Korea or something
is I think
the the role of a man and the role of
masculinity has never been less
clear so people can say what they like
good or bad about so-called gender roles
but for most of human history and still
in many parts of the world it's clear
C okay so someone might think like that
is good or bad like 100 years ago 200
years ago 500 years ago people weren't
saying okay you know what does you have
a young boy you have a young young girl
or woman there wasn't a big debate and
confusion around okay like what should
you do what should be your general
course of Life what should you Aspire
towards what should you it's it was
pretty clear okay you're a boy you're a
young man cool you do this you you
protect you provide you learn a skill
you get a job you're money you get
married you have kids you look after
them you raise your family you're a
woman cool you you learn certain skills
you become a mother you get you get
married you become a mother you have
children you raise those children you
look after the home you help with
various tasks and so on and so it was
very clear it just very clear so some
people will take issue with that and say
you know there wasn't enough flexibility
and you know there what about the
exceptional people who wanted I
understand all that but it was clear and
I think now in one of the first places
and in one of probably the first time in
human
history it's just not that clear I think
to a lot of young men if you take like a
say a man between a guy
between 14 and
25 it's just not that clear like what
they're meant to
do in a way that it used to always be
clear it's like yeah you can still do
the traditional path and strive to
become a protector and a provider learn
skill get M I'd still say hey like those
conservative quote unquote ideas that
still generally works but also it's
harder in many ways that are not your
fault right you've just inherited this
weird economic situation and you're now
living in a time where actually even the
idea of hey you do these things and
you'll find a decent wife that's not as
like as much of a as a given and then
there's a whole flip side of this for
young women where it's like well am I
supposed to depend on a man or not am I
meant to be independent or dependent am
I meant to there's this weird thing
that's been going on which is causing
quite a lot of conflict between the two
Sexes which neither really seems to be
that happy with it's like on paper
there's more Choice than ever before on
paper but in a strange paradoxical
way the impacts of that increased choice
that came decades ago has also managed
to now constrain and confine people
because let's say a young man and women
want to do the more traditional route
again o now it's really hard to raise
now it's really hard to uh you know just
just have a single income unless one
unless you know unless the guy's like
really really crushing it at his work or
his business that's just way harder now
than it used to be it's harder to buy a
property it's harder to do this and that
so there's people who even have that
more sort of traditional conservative
mindset and approach towards it and even
for them it's just like well this is a
lot harder to do than it was what do
modern people do given that they are
facing these extra challenges yeah what
do they do it's a great question man um
I know with you and Michael mice you had
the whole thing of like you know the
should and the should versus the
a um it It's Tricky you know because
people don't like being told what to do
um that that seems to be like a a great
a great sin to but you have a North Star
right star human flourishing I I do
think that most people should still do
the normal stuff the normal route I
think that
both men and women biologically
physiologically mentally we have a we
have a certain hardwiring where men
generally we want we still want to be
useful we want to be um we want to be
respected we like to create additional
resources more than we just need as
independent you know solo men so that we
can provide and help others wife family
children maybe Community if we have a
certain amount of success we're still
very much wired that way the vast
majority of women in every single
country they still want to become
mothers they still want to get married
they still want to have children they
still actually even if you PLL working
women the majority of them even in
Western countries when answering
anonymously if asked hey if you had the
opportunity to stay home and raise and
raise your children would you take it
like if financially you weren't stressed
on that front majority actually say yes
so as much as we supposedly break away
from these sort of gend roles and
expectations it's so ingrained in people
that hasn't really changed we're stuck
in this weird place between um
traditionalism and
chivalry versus sort of progressivism
and egalitarianism and I think that
causes a lot of confusion I think
especially for young people it really
causes a lot of confusion for them
because say for a young man okay I don't
know you're taking a girl out on a date
like the expectations are kind of weird
because all this feminism and
egalitarianism and men and women are
just the same and you know all da da da
in in fact in in terms of unmarried
people under the age of 30 in a lot of
cities actually women are now out
earning men and women are getting more
degrees and so on and so forth but the
woman still expects the man to pay and
the man still hypergamy is still real
yes and the man still thinks hey like I
should pay for the date and then but
like if you had true egalitarianism that
doesn't really necessarily make sense
but like men are consider the ones who
are meant to approach and the ones who
are supposed to pursue and the ones who
are meant to pay and protect and provide
even like a woman who might call herself
a feminist she still has a lot of these
expectations in many cases and there's
this
weird it can be quite a deranging thing
for someone to navigate this like Ping
Pong back and forth between wait I
thought I thought it was like this but
then the expectation here and I think
what do they do there's a lot of
disappointment hey I'm kind of a return
to tradition
but you know I
think people have to
find people have to find their way I
also think when it comes to when you ask
that are you asking about like the sort
of male female dynamic or just broadly
yeah I'm super curious so uh the way
that I approach life is there are very
real answers now admittedly there are
times where I haven't been in a given
situation like I can't tell you what to
do on a dating app because I've never
been on one but I can tell you how to
think through a dating app sure so what
I'm looking for it just goes back to
this idea of okay I've got this
incredibly powerful flesh based AI in
front of me how does he tackle these
given problems so um by way of model of
what I'm looking for my response and all
of this is okay things have gotten
harder for you I I agree with you the
way I say it is you want to align with
your biology so uh dear women now this
is a guy who's married to a woman that
does not want kids um but trust me that
was a long conversation about why and
how it is that she would be the
exception and is she sure and all that
stuff you just said something there
that's extremely important which is to
recognize that that is an exception for
sure I think in our societies what's
happened too much recently is things are
being built around the exceptions rather
than the common
case and so at the sake of allowing the
exceptions
to flourish and thrive
you've often times crushed the majority
perhaps in ways that you didn't
anticipate for sure oh very much so and
I think uh Thomas soul is going to make
another appearance here uh there are no
Solutions there's only tradeoffs and so
understanding that yeah you want to
fight for the people that are being
marginalized yes the problem is when you
swing all of culture and aim it at
protecting the marginalized you just now
trampled on all the people that were
like whoo I perfectly aligned with the
the sort of evolutionarily validated way
of doing it but now culture is not
aligned to that so uh you've got the
bulk of people that when they align with
their biology now feel out of step with
culture and I think we're coming out of
that and we're going to be on the other
side of that and I think it's going to
rewing a bit more traditional and and
women are going to be greeted with open
arms and celebration again this goes
back to what do you celebrate as a
culture my wife was once talking to a
woman and the woman was asking my wife
what you did and you know all these cool
accolades companies money success and my
wife was like oh what do you do and
she's like I'm just a mother and my
wife's like hold on time out you're
doing the world's greatest thing there
is nothing more honorable and beautiful
than having kids but Society has told
you to add just in front of that she was
like no way like that's so amazing and
so anyway my wife even though it's not
her past she understands that the vast
majority of humanity falls into that
bucket and that we need to celebrate
that and those when when I meet parents
nine times out of tenen I thank them for
their service I love that because I and
and I'm not being tongue and- cheek I
really mean it uh I have chosen not to
have kids and and I am somebody who
wants to see Humanity move forward and
so in many ways I am um I am accepting
the the kindness of strangers who've
chosen a different path and so therefore
this is not the movie um the future of
man I can't remember if that's the title
oh Children of Men children of men thank
you uh about a world that has no more
kids and it's just a desolate horrible
Place uh and I think that it would be
horrible so anyway um I think that
people need to understand yes you were
trying to do something good but the
outcome was terrible this has become the
theme of the episode from my side of the
table is that and how do we accurately
assess when things are going arai yes
and so if we were to set the table for
all the things that have broken or you
know a top handful for people today
you've said it's harder you've already
laid one thing on the table which is the
relationship between the Sexes has
become uh obsessed with the people that
are at the fringes like I can answer can
I answer that one please so I'm going to
speak to individuals here because I
can't really speak to a group so I'm
going to think I'm going to frame the
question is you know what would be my
general broad advice for a young man or
a young woman in this society today
who's bombarded with all this stuff and
who's kind of worried about it I think
the first thing I'd say is become truly
self-aware and when I say that what I
mean
is for your whole life you know you
you're influenced by your your parents
your family your community your culture
where wherever you grow up and we're all
influenced by all these things and all
these things and people also tell us
what you what you should do and what you
should want and so I think it's
important for to to take a pause and
think about what your actual priorities
are and be and be truly honest be truly
truly honest about this if you're a
young woman and you're like you know
what like I'm not interested
in like working a job for decades and
this and this and actually I'd love to
like get married and have ideally a
bunch of kids and just raise that and
like be honest with yourself and
recognize that that is firstly that's
like like that's that's totally like
normal and it's good and there's nothing
like denigrating about because people
have really really been it's it's weird
because there's this idea of choice but
at the same time some of the most like
normal and traditional choices are like
frowned upon or shamed or attacked
there's so many women who feel like
afraid to kind of say hey I kind of just
want to be a wife or a mother or like I
am just a wife and a mother you know
just that just just and it's like wait
why why is that the case so I think
people need to be honest with that and
I'd say another core part of
self-awareness I think I I once had a
tweet where I said this I said
self-awareness is knowing when you're
the rule and knowing when you're the
exception that's nice yeah so really
look at yourself and your personality
and your proclivities and the things you
want and the things you don't want and
recognize like in most things you're
going to be the norm
right like most of us don't have such
extreme personalities and desires that
we're going to be the exception in
everything most people will be the norm
in most things and you might be the
exception in a few so Norms yeah you
know low and behold whether you're
talking about men or women actually most
men want to protect and provide to some
degree most men want to be respected in
their community and by their um you know
future spouse and their children so most
men actually want to get married and
have children most women want to get
married and have children um most people
want you know most men would like to
have a career most women do most women
want to have a traditional career I I
don't know but whatever the thing but
know where you're the norm no where
you're the exception okay so if there's
and then when you're the norm look at
people who you Aspire towards who have
done the normal thing in this regard and
model it right so if you're oh actually
yeah I I do want to get married and I do
want to have kids I do want like you've
got a billions of examples around the
world of people who did those exact
things and you can look at people who
did it well and people who did who did
it badly and you can you can learn from
them and say oh okay I saw the steps
that this person took and I can even
speak to these individuals and so on and
so cool in this aspect of life that's my
trajectory that's my general path that's
typically what I want and then you look
at the other areas and you balance it
out and you will have some things where
you might be an exception okay so most
people most people aren't going to start
aren't going to start a company for
example most people are not
entrepreneurs being an entrepreneur is
an exception so if you're not if you're
not there's there's nothing wrong with
not being an entrepreneur right so for
most people it's going to be like okay I
need a job of some sort right like I
need to be employed because I'm not
going to go and start a whole company um
and so cool I'm G to do that and then
I'm G to get a job in terms of exactly
what that is again you can do more
self-reflection and education and work
out okay cool this is my this is the
thing I want to do it's the thing I'm
good at and it's the thing that there's
a market demand for and so you can go
into that so I think with uh both young
men and young women I think just being
truly truly honest about your desires
and your ranking of them of the things
you want to
prioritize
and understanding I think on top of that
that this is going to change over the
course of your life so so consider that
right if you're 22 years old and you're
like yeah I never want to have kids you
know take caution there right like don't
get aomy just right like maybe you know
you'll you'll maybe you'll never change
on that right maybe all through those
next decades you'll never change but
like you to to know that for certain at
22 like you'd need an extreme level of
like self-awareness and ability Pro
which most people just don't really have
to be honest so recognize cool like you
have these things and it's going to
change over the course of time and it
should
um and then yeah I think just take steps
take steps towards those things and
don't allow the culture especially if
you think the culture is degenerate
don't allow the culture or Society or
the media or whatever to like push and
shove you totally against your values
and your
goals just so you can fit in or so that
people you don't care about will like
you or whatever the case may be just you
know do that and on top of that all you
know en enjoy the enjoy the process and
I think that's really what it is I'd say
one more thing between like men and
women in particular is um because I see
a lot of like the the dating discourse
and stuff like that now which is a big
topic of conversation online at least
and um this is going to sound it's going
to it's crazy this this is going to
sound like radical in
2024 but um you only need to find one
person you don't need to date the entire
world so for all the men who are
like all the women are s all the all the
women suck like it's impossible to find
a good woman like the general qual you
don't need to date hundreds of millions
of women and they wouldn't let you
anyway um and if you're a woman you
don't need to date 100 million guys like
it could totally be the case that like
80 90% of 95% of guys you find totally
un cool that still means that there's
like Millions who are datable and you
only need to find like one who you
really like and who really likes you and
who you're aligned with to cool like
you've solved that piece right like I
know you've been married for over two
decades right yeah so crazy good for you
by the way man I have massive massive
respect for that and so cool like you
all right cool sorted like that that
whole thing you you don't need to worry
about like what those other hundreds of
millions or millions of people out there
are doing because it's like well cool
like I'm I'm good so um and and I'd say
as well on that
front become someone who is
worth you know a lot of people complain
about like the the whole dating culture
and relationships and this and that but
like become a great version of yourself
yeah if you're if you're if you're a guy
if you're a young man become the type of
man who you would I don't know if you've
got a sister become the type of man
you'd want your sister to date right
become the type of man that women like
actually want to be with and they oh
actually like man like that guy's he's
attractive and he's cool and he's got
certain capability he's and he
competence on women same thing right
don't just be the oh just I am who I am
and so every man should just bow down to
me and love me it's like no that's
delusional right like physically
mentally spiritually what like build you
know get yourself up to a point where
you are an attractive proposition I mean
women it's even easier right like become
an attractive proposition and then you
can literally like pick the you know you
will have suitors again to use an old
school term and you can be like okay
cool like this is the guy that I like
and who I'm aligned with and cool again
you've you've now solved that piece and
I think people get locked in this thing
of oh you need to go on like hundreds of
thousands of dates and all these
different people and this and that and
people are just going out there just
very recklessly recklessly in many cases
and then they're getting jaded
throughout the process and no one is
really happy with it it's funny Tom um
like the older I get the better I
understand
why certain traditions and ways of doing
things
exist like the the better I understand
that all our ancestors from like
thousands of years ago the way the
reason they had certain social codes and
norms and ways of doing things and
traditions it wasn't just like hey we
just want to be mean and oppress people
and limit all your freedoms it was just
like hey okay we've been around for a
few thousands of years we've tried
things a lot of different ways and this
is what we have found works for the vast
majority of people and is generally good
for our society and Nation as a whole
and so that's why we've kind of settled
on ways of doing things and why we've
given certain
instructions um through various means
and so I think there's this um to use a
CS Lewis term chronological snobbery
that's kind of happening in our era
where we assume that we're so much
smarter than all the people who came
before us and that we can just throw all
that stuff away and just completely
reinvent the wheel and just you know
what let's just try let's just try all
of this stuff and just everyone just do
whatever you want to do as long as it's
legal just do anything um that's not
great advice and I think it's um quote
unquote judgmental to say that there are
ways of doing things and ways of
operating that are better than others
and even the people who choose to really
learn it the hard way they still tend to
learn it eventually and I think I would
like to encourage young people in
particular to avoid some of those
mistakes if you can like here's a great
thing to do if you're like I don't know
20 or 30 20 25 30 however old you are is
to look at people a few decades older
than you and look at the different paths
they've
taken and decide okay where do you where
do you want to be you're 20 years old
right now look at the people who are 40
or 50 and look at their path and the
decisions they made along that time and
find the people who you Aspire towards
and also find the opposite find the
people you're like oh my gosh I don't
want my life to look anything like that
and proceed seed accordingly let me ask
you who's living your ideal
life my
parents my
parents um they are now in their my
dad's in his late 70s my mom's in her
late
60s um they have five awesome kids if I
can say so
[Laughter]
myself uh they have all my siblings are
married I'm the only one who's not
married yet they've all got kids I have
five nieces and five nephews my parents
have 10 grandkids with Lord willing more
to
come and they're happy they're healthy
they live with meaning and purpose
they've been married for almost 50 years
still totally in love with each other um
they they're close to God they're close
to their Community they do a lot of good
things both in the UK and back home in
Nigeria they're just wonderful people
and that is what I Aspire towards I've
achieved success in various areas so far
and done you know taken some unorthodox
paths and we will continue to but when I
look at okay when I'm my dad's age when
I'm like approaching 80 and I'm thinking
and I'm looking at my life what do I
what would I like it to look like um and
yeah I see that he's he's a guy I know
he he could I don't I don't even want to
think about my dad dying but like he
could die tomorrow and he'd be like
fully content right he'd be like cool I
did my job God I'm good like I did it
and so
um yeah I I find that very aspirational
and you know my my dad's he's a he's a
medical doctor and he's achieved he's
achieved a lot of success he's been a
doctor for over 50 years still
practicing so you know he's helped
thousands of people he's so educated
he's done so much such a smart guy but I
know I know with him for sure like his
relationship with God and his family and
that Legacy would be like the ultimate
thing that he's just like yeah I mean
that's why that's why I even did all
this that's why I even worked so hard
he's made so many sacrifices moving to
different countries and countless
sacrifices and
um yeah that's my answer you once said
that the conservative value system has
advantages for people I want to know
what are those advantages um it works
and it's rooted in reality and I'd say
by definition something being culturally
or socially
conservative means that it is
maintaining some type of status quo that
has typically existed for centuries and
sometimes
Millennia and in most cases not in all
cases if something has survived that
long and persisted that long and helped
human beings for that long then there is
a reason for it and I think that one
mistake we're making particularly in the
modern West is being very quick to throw
away old ideas sometimes just because
they're old and embrace new ideas just
because they're new which is not very
intelligent I'm very open to new ideas
and Innovation and the world moving
forward in good directions that help
Humanity but I think sometimes we're
moving forwards in very Reckless ways
which are causing a lot of damage and
people want change just for the sake of
change and at the same time people are
sometimes quick to throw away and
jettison things that are considered
traditional or old or quote unquote
conservative and so on just because
they're not new and I think that's
incredibly foolish so talk to me about
the idea of it being rooted in reality
what do you mean by that what I mean is
that it's it's funny because I think we
we live in a time where this is truer
than ever
where in the past decade 10 to 15 years
in particular if we look at our
countries if you look at the UK if you
look at the USA if you look at Canada
you look at Australia certain parts of
Western Europe I mean Tom we've had a
we're having a debate quote unquote for
the past 10 years about you know how
many genders there
are can a man be a woman what is a woman
what is a man could a man get pregnant
because things that we'd worked out many
thousands of years ago across all
species before people even knew what
science was and then suddenly in what
2012 2014 all of a sudden this becomes
controversial for me to say that men
don't get pregnant I mean you could talk
to the most liberal person in the year
2008 and you would get zero push back
for that statement right there was
nothing confusing about that you ask
them you know do you think men should be
able to compete in women sports like
they're like no of course not that's
that's a crazy idea men are different
from women and now fast forward 10 15
years and these conversations are not
just happening at the sort of ground
level but at the political level at the
policy level at the legal level all of
these things um I mean you think that we
have we've solved all the actual issues
if we're going to Naval gaze and uh
start discussing all of these things and
that's not that's what I mean that's
just not root in reality and it
shouldn't even be a political statement
so things have become politicized and
have been split into left right issues
or liberal conservative issues when
they're not and then on top of it
there's just a fear around it all
there's a fear of people saying hey I
agree with everything you just said but
you know I wouldn't be able to publicly
say that or I might get fired from my
job if I say that or so on and that's
just crazy that's just insane and then
when people are pushing policies which
an advocating for ideas which just are
are not tenable okay
so open borders defund the police defund
the police all right let's just guys
let's just let's just scrap the police
and abolish the whole prison system just
like that I mean
that is not an idea that's rooted in
reality I don't know how you can have
any understanding of of human nature and
just the realities of the world and the
harshness and the evil that exists in
the world and think it's a good and
Sound Idea to just scrap all law
enforcement and just allow people to do
whatever they want and hope that
everyone's just going to be Kumbaya and
all nice to each other I would love to
live in that world but we we never have
I mean I live in the closest to it I
live in Dubai it's probably as close as
you're going to get to
um but even there part of the reason
that that is maintained is because of
strict rule of law and application of it
okay before we get to Dubai um do you
believe in the idea of a useful fiction
I think so okay so I'll give tell me
exactly what you mean by that yeah so
money to me is a useful fiction we'll
almost certainly later talk about how
the fiction side of it can derange money
and become problematic but the fact that
neither gold nor seashells nor the paper
that we use or Bitcoin none of those are
real unto themselves we have sort of
Grant not sort of we have literally
granted them magical powers and said
this thing represents a store a store of
wealth or the ability to exchange for
goods or both uh so that's a fiction
that we all agree upon I probably
knowing a little bit of your background
I might have a harder time convincing
you that religion is a useful f so we'll
STI with money for now um but if we
agree that there is a class of thing
where we say okay this isn't strictly
true but it has tremendous value um why
would it be better not sure what word
will fit you the best there but why
would it be better for us to adopt a
value system that is tied to reality
when fictions can be useful MH I would
say because you can choose to ignore
reality but you can't ignore the
consequences of that so I think that
there can be useful fictions but there
can also be dangerous and destructive
fictions if you went out and you managed
to convince a significant chunk of the
population that 1 plus 1 doesn't equal
two but in in fact equals three um then
you've now broken mathematics Downstream
from that you've broken computer science
you have have broken technology you've
broken engineering um I don't want to
fly in a plane or drive over a bridge
that's been created by Engineers who
don't believe in the basics of
mathematics because now we've got we've
got a problem so the issue is the what
are the real world impacts of these
things and I think that that's now what
we are dealing with I think with a lot
of these ideas even some of these things
that I've spoken about 10 years ago when
they started to gain popularity someone
might just shrug their shoulders and
think okay well you know whatever L say
fair people can believe what they want
can do what they want and so on and so
forth doesn't affect me directly so why
should I care by the way I think that
attitude is one of the things that's
generally causing a lot of uh the
problems in our society and so I think
the the results matter the tangible
results matter if someone wants to look
at data and science that's one way of
doing it but a lot of the things that
people are now needing studies to prove
are things that which we've intuitively
known for thousands of years because
we've had thousands of years of human
experimentation we can look not just at
one country but we can look at 200 plus
countries and countries that have even
ceased to exist and we can see what they
did right we can see what they did wrong
we can see what led to the downfall of
various Empires we can look to our
ancestors as I said before we can see
that the things that they did right
which we want to take on and maintain we
can look at things that they obviously
did wrong and where they AED and where
they strayed and we can say okay you
know what guys let's not repeat that
again um and I think that that is wise
to do both on an individual level and on
a collective level so I love the idea
that Jordan Peterson has popularized
it's certainly not his idea but the fact
that to sin comes from Latin or
something like that to miss the mark
right so your aim was poor so if we talk
about good and bad which is inherent in
what you're talking about that some
there's one belief system that is
checked against reality that yields good
outcomes and then failing to take heed
of the consequences of an action that is
not tied to reality would be bad so what
is the bullseye that you're aiming at
it's what I call the Northstar what's
your Northstar do you mean for me
personally what do you believe leave
people Mike I steer towards human
flourishing uh which of course we could
do a whole podcast on how the hell you
define that but at least I have a thing
that I run in my own head of does this
lead closer to human flourishing or
farther away which is why I'm just
completely against anything that feels
like it's on the slippery slope to
tyranny that comes from my belief that
tyranny is arguably the single thing
that moves us most rapidly away from
Human flourishing yes again to be
debated but at least I have internal
consistency in my mind so that's my
North Star um what Northstar do you
check good and bad against for me
personally I would have to say Godly
righteousness can you define that
because I don't know what you mean by
that well yeah I mean I'm I'm a
Christian so my worldview is based on
that before
anything political or culture warry or
whatever
that's my
fundamental those are that's where my
core values are aligned to be aligned
with God the Ten Commandments and the
general teachings of Jesus Christ and to
try to live my life according to that
righteously in terms of things that are
to expand that out a little bit if I
would give you a couple of North Stars
which might be perhaps clearer to
understand for people who may not
necessarily be religious I would say
righteousness still and with that I
would say I would say truth and
Liberty and I think that I'd say them
all together
because I think just striving purely for
liberty for
example Liberty in the absence of
righteousness or in the absence of some
type of moral and ethical
framework
is it's not inherently good I believe
that as human beings are made in the
image of God and we are made we are made
free We Are Born Free and with Liberty
that's not something that is granted to
us from anything but our creator I just
think by existing you are essentially
supposed to be free um interestingly I
think even from a religious perspective
God's not saying hey you I'm going to
force you and mandate that you know I'm
not even going to force you to worship
me right people have been rejecting God
since the Old Testament go read it it's
just a cycle of back and forth of
rebellion and adherence and rebellion
and adherence so I think that Liberty
alone in the absence of morality and
ethics it it's just chaos right if it's
just okay you you are free to do
whatever you
want and that's that then I think we can
very quickly see how that doesn't lead
to a great situation or Society it's
just recklessness everyone just just do
whatever you want if it makes you feel
good just go out there and do it um so
regardless of the type of society people
immediately understand okay we need
certain boundaries we need laws we need
social codes we need sets of morals we
need sets of Ethics um so I think that's
where the righteousness aspect comes in
and then I also think truth because if
you are pursuing Truth by the way I love
this question because I've never even
thought about it like this before I'm
just sort of thinking on the Fly here
and I think truth as well I think that
truth is an aspect of righteousness I I
think that truth is a mass truth is the
check against tyranny
because you don't get tyranny when
people are free to tell the truth and
try to seek and decipher the truth I
know that you have studied a lot of
tyranny throughout history various
authoritarian regimes tyrannical regimes
it doesn't matter if it's a monarchy or
if it's fascism or if it's uh communism
whatever it is one of the common things
is the truth is massively suppressed and
everyone is so afraid to speak the truth
and to try to find the truth that
everyone just goes along with a lie and
once everyone starts lying and everyone
is fearful and then that's when the
system just metastasizes right it just
it osies and now you're in a really
scary situation because if you even do
if you even do say the truth you're now
at the stage where okay you might be
brutalized you might be thrown in a Gog
you might be killed and your family
killed because you dared to say
something that was true and I think that
when people lie constantly whether by
commission or by a mission then that has
consequences of course for themselves
and that's something you'll feel in your
Consciousness and your soul and as we
say you know it might be hard to look at
yourself in the mirror because you you
know you're feeling like a coward and
you know you're not doing the right
thing but then on the grander scale as
you expand out to your family to your
community to your nation and to the
world that can have very dire and severe
consequences and often times I think
people don't see that until it's a bit
too late and then they start wondering
well how did we how did we get here
right how how have we arrived at this
scenario and it's like well nobody
nobody told the truth everyone was
scared um and I think there's a big
difference
between being truthful and getting it
wrong versus lying right so I don't run
under the assumption that everything I
think or believe or I say is right and
correct but I won't say anything that I
don't believe to be true if I know that
the truth is here I'm not going to say
something totally different every single
day I'm learning I'm talking to other
people iron is sharpening iron and I'm
getting smarter and being able to
consider things from different ways but
um I think I can genuinely say that it
was funny I was on I was on a podcast
knot uh last year
and uh the host said that everybody lies
and I said I don't lie
he was like I don't believe he's like
you don't lie I was like no I I
genuinely don't think I lie like I
don't like I get things
wrong but I don't knowingly lie I'm not
going to go on a podcast or stand on a
stage or go online and say something
that I just straight up know what about
do these jeans make my ass look fat I
will tell the truth respect I might
phrase it in a way that um you know
lessons the blow but yeah I will I will
I will tell the truth and I I I that's
something that's very important to me
and you know in the past few years a lot
of people
have commented on you know my my courage
or bravery or whatever it is and it's
just I I just try to be truthful I just
try to be honest I don't try it's just
maybe it's my default pattern and
perhaps also just having an awareness of
what can happen when you start
compromising on that and you start to
wrap yourself in this web of Deceit and
you start to just kind of play along
with things you
know like obviously not to be true it
doesn't lead to good places yeah and uh
if truth is one of your core tenants I
can certainly see adhering to that
talking about um
righteousness I want to understand that
righteousness I believe when I look at
religion that they are proxies for how
to live the good life now again this
when you hit the word good you know that
there is a value system already inherent
there is a nor star that they're aiming
at
I believe that religions all the ones
that I'm aware of are a uh book about
how to live a life in accordance with
that ultimate North
Star you're a Christian yeah I'm a
Christian okay so do you believe that
the Christian faith puts righteousness
and gives you the Ten Commandments just
as a quick standin for um the things
that it's preaching as a way to get
people to live a quote unquote good life
yes you could say that all right what is
the good life I think the good life
is I mean it's going to sound like a
almost a repetition I mean it's it's
living in accordance with God and God's
Commandments and I think that
down that's what I want to get yeah sure
I'm going to say if it's Downstream from
that then it leads to what you talk
about it leads to human
flourishing if people actually
regardless of I mean I think it would be
quite hard to disagree regardless of
someone's position whether they're
totally atheistic or they're agnostic or
they're a different religion or they're
you know wherever they are I think if we
were to follow the Commandments and the
teachings of Jesus even like just pretty
the basic stuff love your neighbor as
yourself
um the world our societies would look
very very different
and one thing about being even uh you
know being a follower of Christ
is we recognize that we ourselves not
are not perfect with this right it's all
a battle it's all a struggle human
beings are essentially we're sinful um
we are we are sinful creatures we are
naturally
rebellious and we do things that are
self-serving and we get angry and we can
experience jealousy and bitterness and
resentment and anger and all types of
things on different scales and levels
and that that's
when things that's when things go south
so I think that both on an individual
level and on a societal level it's like
hey if you follow these guidelines then
that leads to the human flourishing for
you as an individual also for your wife
if you treat your wife as you are
commanded to and wives treat their
husbands as they are commanded to and
their children and children respect
their parents and love them in the way
that they're supposed to and we just
extend that out to the society then in
theory cool yeah there's there's no more
war Like There's No Stealing there's no
more like these things are very clearly
Thou shalt not steal Thou shalt not kill
right Thou shalt not covet thy
neighbor's stuff house wife
um and when we air when we when we stray
from that or we try to blow it up and I
don't know recreate it with some other
ideology that we over intellectualize in
some cases
then it doesn't it just it just doesn't
go well sometimes for some individual
you might be able to get away with it
for a while and take pleasure in the
Hedonism and the materialism of it but
even the people who take that path what
I find so fascinating is even people who
do take that path those who are
self-aware and
self-correcting they tend to come around
right they they tend okay I I tried all
that and I still felt Hollow I still
felt empty I still felt that thing in me
like what I'm doing isn't really it's
not right it's not it's not good it's
not it's not righteous so it's
interesting that even when people stray
extremely far out of those bounds that
they tend to they tend to correct
because because of reality right because
of the results of it because of the
fruit that it bears and so I just don't
think you can get away from those what I
would consider basic and fundamental
truths I really wish more people were
self-correcting I wish more people were
willing to admit that they were wrong
but um while I share a deep
fundamental uh optimism for humans I am
tempered by the real world that has
taught me over and over that uh it takes
a tremendous amount of selfawareness
and intellect
humility yes humility is a huge one also
to really complicate things uh humility
but also I think that the idea of the
luciferian intellect is also correct and
so even if you have all the things that
would allow you to be self-correcting
you can still spill over in the opposite
direction yeah humans are
extraordinarily complicated so I
unfortunately think the Buddhists are
probably closest to WR and that all of
life is suffering and that humans have a
a very hard time escaping that in any
meaningful way but before I derail us
entirely on that no that's fine I think
I was going to say I think Christians
believe the same thing I mean that is
the story of Jesus I mean a story of
suffering that is I don't know if you
can really top that one as Jordan
Peterson always says you know carry
carry bury your cross and carry it you
know carry a load and make a sacrifice
make sacrifices and those sacrifices are
ultimately worthwhile when you do them
in accordance with a higher good making
meaning out of your burden yeah making
mean making meaning out of the suffering
you're absolutely right that we cannot
Escape suffering I mean at a minimum we
are all going to at a bare minimum we're
all going to die that's a
start not a great start zie sounds like
an end to me we're we're all gonna die
right everyone we know every Brian
Johnson Brian please everyone we know
and love we're we're going to die we're
all going to experience illness and
sickness probably various forms of
injury particularly as we get older as
as amazing as someone's life may be and
free of suffering and fun as it is now
long term that's what it all Trends
towards so you know the question that
people always ask what's what's the
meaning of life what's the purpose and
so on it's like Well in that meantime
while we are here on this Earthly realm
what do you what do you do with that how
do you spend your time how do you spend
your resources your energy your time
what do you what do you
prioritize um what do you do what do you
avoid doing when you do things that are
wrong how do you how do you account for
that how do you respond to it and you
know the people have been asking these
questions for Millennia through
philosophy you know
religion
various ideologies and belief systems
and and everyone's got one people like
to pretend they they don't haveone every
every operates under some
amalgamation
of I don't want to say an ideology
because I think that's a little bit too
strong but there was a term you used
earlier um don't know was it value was
it value system value oh frame of
reference frame of reference yeah
everyone has a frame of reference but I
think what you're touching on is more
important which I the words I use for
what I think you're trying to articulate
right now is that everybody has a
god-shaped hole inside of them and they
will fill it with something yes and
that's something maybe drugs maybe sex
maybe food maybe religion but it's going
to get filled yeah I I agree with that I
I would say that regardless of someone's
ideas and beliefs about how we got here
and how we came to be it seems
self-evident that human beings are a
religious species sometimes people get
sort of triggered or upset when I say
that because they think I'm saying what
do you mean by that then well it's clear
I mean I believe something like 90% of
the world's population believes in God
a God right yes in some God yes in some
form believes in God or a supernatural
higher power yep um and as far as I
know that has always been the case
religion is not new um religious belief
worshiping Gods deities even worshiping
nature in some form worshiping Idols
these have always existed I would even
say that now even in the times we live
in now a lot of people have
replaced what we'd call traditional
religion with other types of belief
systems and ideologies and other isms
and
schisms um so it's very clear to me that
human beings have a proclivity and
there's something in us that makes us we
certainly have something in us that
makes us worship I mean go to a music
concert go to a festival go to like
obviously obviously you can go to a
church or a synagogue or a mosque but
human beings worship you know we worship
things and fundamentally we're social
creatures so we all we all want a sense
of community we all of course want some
sense of meaning Direction purpose
morality hey I'm on this big spinning
Rock like what is right and wrong what
is good and bad how do I live my life
how do I interact with and treat other
people what should I pursue so these are
all questions that we just naturally I
think ask ourselves as intelligent
animals I don't think that um you know
ducks and cockroaches are having these
conversations but
but human beings we we we certainly are
and we're we're trying to work it out
and so when I say that human beings are
fundamentally religious I just mean that
that is it's wired in Us in some way
whether someone just thinks that's
purely Evolution or someone thinks hey
that is how we are created and obviously
we have this Instinct because God put
that instinct in US regardless of what
somebody believes I'm just saying that
it is there it is there um you could
take someone who is like there are
people who
are fanatically Evangelical about their
atheism which I personally find
hilarious like I find that kind of funny
when someone is so atheistic that it's
becomes their it becomes their religion
like that is their entity it's in their
bio on Twitter and on Instagram that
they are an atheist like I don't even
have Christian in my bio and I'm like so
you're very expressly putting forward
the thing that you're saying you don't
even believe in and that's how you're
explicitly defining yourself and you're
dedicating sometimes hours sometimes
dozens of hours of a dozen hour uh you
know dozens of hours a week to the
pursuit of this trying to prze and push
other people in like I'm not an atheist
but I always like to imagine that if I
were I'd be like a atheist right I
wouldn't be like an anti-theistic like I
need to go out there and convert other
people you know get that percentage of
the atheist population up right it
doesn't the rich Dawkins yeah I I I I
find that kind of odd even him it's
interesting because I think even he is
sort of changing his stance on this a
little bit he's not as militant as he
he's not as militant as he what used to
be I'd have to look closer but the that
se just going on recent interviews I've
seen anyway yeah the clips that I've
seen he does not seem comfortable when
people say what you're saying now so
even if his stance is softening I don't
know that he views it as his stance and
he calls himself a cultural Christian
yes and he talks about how much he likes
many Christian teachings and he loves
churches and he thinks that it's
terrible that churches in the UK are
being replaced by mosques and so on and
so forth he said not too long ago I this
has got to be last six months uh soand
so calls like me soand so calls himself
a cultural Christian but unlike me he
means it and so I was like yeah this
this feels like the dockins that I know
yeah maybe I don't I don't know I mean I
haven't spoken to him so I don't want to
um assume In fairness I haven't spoken a
long either but I have a feeling that he
may not may not I do not speak for
Richard Dawkins let very clear uh but he
may not be the poster child that people
want him to be sure now one thing I want
to so I totally agree with you that we
are a religious species I like your
definition that there is going to be a
thing that is so allc consuming of your
identity because it gives you a value
system that you can just wholesale say
because I am this thing yes I have a
value system and I will live according
to that um what I want to understand
when a person looks at religion as a
useful fiction then the the religious
Collision that we're about to live
through I don't think is a big deal but
when you really believe it is the true
word of God and it is to be defended
with your life now you get something
that can be can have historically has
had an extremely high cost in human life
and I believe that we are rushing
towards a western collision
between uh Christianity and um Islam
interesting and I'm very curious
especially somebody who grew up in Saudi
Arabia and the UK um how you think that
will play out will people find hey we
are um it's it's all the book of Abraham
and so we have a unity and they'll find
that Unity or like we have seen many
times throughout history where these two
religions Collide um that it is a game
of conquest and taking over and winning
and losing man that's a that's a huge
and heavy
question and some you know I expect some
people to disagree with everything I say
my perspective on this
is
H personally as someone who lived in
Saudi Arabia for 20 years and who now
lives in the United Arab Emirates
I have never
seen that a gigantic clash and conflict
between these worldviews and belief
systems is necessary and
inevitable at all in fact I think that
what would cause that to happen is the
human sin itself and people VI people
violate look what is
Thou shalt not
kill in Christianity you are not
supposed to if you if you're a Christian
you're not meant to kill people if you
are a Muslim you're not meant to kill
people if you are Jewish you are not
meant to kill people right so if you are
getting to the stage of fanaticism and
extremism where you think that you are
right and justified in slaughtering
innocent people in the name of your
religion
then I mean
at its core you you violated it in the
most massive way possible we're going to
have disagreements I mean the most
obvious disagreement between the three
abrahamic religions the three main ones
is who exactly was Jesus who exactly is
Jesus Christ right that's the most
obvious differentiation between them in
Islam he is a prophet and he's the
Messiah but they don't believe he's the
son of God because they don't believe
that God has or can have a son
Christianity you obviously believe he is
the Son of God you believe father son
Holy Spirit the Trinity um Judaism does
not rever Jesus Christ in the same way
that uh Islam does let alone
Christianity does you know they
depending on the Jewish person they
might just believe he was a person who
was a heretic who was you know executed
for his sins or he was a false teacher
or something like that and the
theological differences matter if you're
having a you know deep religious
conversation or discussion debate then
that obviously matters but in terms of
how we conduct ourselves here on this
Earth and how we interact with other
people
then yeah like when we're not meant to
hurt kill steal from each other or
anyone and and as soon as someone
regardless of their Viewpoint is trying
to justify that then I would say they
are absolutely in the wrong and people
religious and irreligious alike
gosh if there's one thing we should all
be able to agree on like hey hey let's
not murder each other
right yeah yeah and and the thing is the
thing is as well with this Tom is the
truth is 99% of people agree with this
regardless of their claimed or actual
belief
systems it's a very very tiny percentage
of humanity that chooses to do the worst
stuff
possible
and sadly that has a very outsized
impact and it taints our entire species
but I think the thing is as well is
people can murder or kill or steal under
any or no
ideology so you can have someone who
goes and kills
because I don't know you know they don't
have any strong belief system they just
they just were angry or someone had
something that they wanted and they
decided to go and kill or they were part
of a gang which had some you know it was
an in initiation or they were running on
there's people there are eco-terrorists
there are people who think you should
kill because of you know Save the Planet
so terminate the humans or like there's
all sorts of weird Fringe beliefs
there's people who kill over politics
there are leftwing extremists who kill
there are right-wing extremists who kill
there are um atheists who kill there are
Christians there are Muslims there are
so on and so forth and that's down to
the individual you know that's the
individual just on this note it's
fascinating cuz I mean thinking of
numbers I just uh a couple weeks ago I
was in L Salvador I was invited to uh
naib buell's inauguration which was cool
because he's one of the only world
leaders that I actually massively
respect so El Salvador used to be the
most dangerous country in the world it's
crazy at its worst it had triple the
homicide rate of Haiti whoa all right
hey set goals man right like Hai Haiti
is not known to be um you know some some
lovely
Utopia so it's now the safest
country by homicide rate in the entire
Western Hemisphere wow it's got a third
of the murder rate of the USA it's safer
than Canada statistically this all
changed in under a
decade so it's a population of I think
about 6.3 million people the president
buelli he put between 60 and 70,000
people in prison and that dropped the
homicide rate by
97% 1% of the population in prison drops
the murder rate 97 97% so just that
simple math says a lot to me in terms of
what how big a chunk of the human beings
it is in any given Society or culture
that predates on everybody else and I
think you'll find that in virtu you know
the numbers are going to vary slightly
from country to country and city City
but that's really the situation so I
think often times sadly people sometimes
blame things on I think it's trendy to
blame religion on certain things or
blame certain ideologies and belief
systems on things when it's not really
that it's just the human sin now I agree
that there can be an ideology that's so
extreme that where you know homicide
homicidal or genocidal intention is
coded within it right where that is part
of of the ideology and if someone starts
following that and really believing it
obviously we have a problem right but
I've never come across someone who's
like all right my goal is to follow
Jesus and to live as closely as I can
according to his teachings like if that
is your goal like you're not going to
end
up maybe you'll be a little too nice
right little too kind people might uh
try to take advantage of you in some
ways but um yeah you're not going to go
out there and be harming people or
taking their stuff let alone killing
them like that would be completely
completely counter to all of those
teachings and that would make someone
you know not just a criminal but a
gigantic hypocrite so uh while I acquas
to the extremely fascinating data point
around El Salvador and obviously agree
that in a Civilized Nation it's going to
be a small percentage of the people that
are doing the vast majority of the crime
I mean even just power law Dynamics but
if I isolate this back to religion and
before you and I were on camera we
happened to talk about something similar
uh and we were talking about history and
U my whole thesis is if you want to
understand the future you need to only
look to the Past because the past is
just an explanation of what humans are
like and so if we look in the past at
what humans are like you find that Wars
really get fought for one of three
reasons reason number one is a clash of
religions so my God says you're bad uh
and therefore clash Clash uh economics
so I want your [ __ ] and I'm going to
come take it and then reason number
three which is maybe the most terrifying
which is uh God said I should come take
your [ __ ] and so normally what's the
difference between one and three there
so the last one is I'm going to leverage
the fact that you are a religious
species and I'm going to get you all to
mobilize not because it's in your best
interest I'm the king I mean this is I'm
literally channeling the Crusades here
okay so the Crusades started out as no
for real God really wants us to go
rescue Jerusalem and then it very
quickly became i i as a lord would go
whip up people saying hey we're going to
go uh rescue Jerusalem and then they
would never even go to Jerusalem because
this was really about just getting an
army together and going and doing
something else and you say that it's in
the name of God and then people go with
I think that I think that almost all
wars are actually number
two I think sometimes they use number
one and number three as justification
and to rally and support from the
population but virtually every war is
about resources and influence and
power okay so give me a lens on uh
Israel Palestine not I don't need to
take because I know it's Uber
complicated but just from because what
I'm really trying to tease out is your
uh belief system around religion how
that informs this human flourishing it
gives us a way to live but as somebody
on the outside who doesn't believe I'm
like hey these are useful fictions but I
know where these things Collide and so
Israel Palestine is an easy thing to
point at where um I'd love your take on
is religion playing any role in this or
is this purely economic I think it plays
some role it would be dishonest for me
to say it plays no role of course it
plays some role because religion it does
yes because there are and like I'm not
an I'm not an expert at Christianity let
alone Islam or
Judaism um I know
from certain Muslims I've spoken to in
fact there's a guy
um named Lui Al Sharif who's based in uh
he's Saudi but he lives in the UAE but
he was telling me that um when he was a
kid growing up in Saudi Arabia you know
he like he was like I hated Jews right
he had been taught and kind of learned
that he is supposed to and there are
certainly Muslims I'm aware there are
even also Christians which is weird to
me given Jesus but there are people out
there who they have been taught they've
been raised to hate just like if you
were to go not so far back in history
there were white people who were born
who were raised and taught to be racist
they were taught to hate to fear black
people to look down on them whatever it
might be there were black people who
were raised to hey the white man is the
devil you know those blue-eyed Devils
whatever it is there's people to this
day that believe that right they they
hold on to that some it's you could call
it religion some you could call it
ideology it could just be some will call
it brain I don't know I don't really
know what you call it so you can
certainly teach and learn hatred and so
there is no question I'm far from any
expert in the Israel Israel Palestine
situation but I know for a fact that
there are there is some percentage of
those populations where there is a
genuine hatred there is a genuine hatred
for the other tribe and on both sides
there are individuals who have genocidal
beliefs and rhetoric around that right
there are people who just think Israel
should be wiped off of the map with
everything that that entails um and
there are Israelis I don't think I don't
have no idea what the percentage is I'd
imagine it's a very small amount who
also feel the same way vice
versa with that said it's also a massive
land dispute right right the questions
are about the legitimacy of this nation
and everyone depending on what side
people are on from what I've gathered
this is crazy by the way this the first
time I've ever even T talked about this
touched on this issue in a podcast
because I just avoid it um there there's
an issue around the land and who owns it
who has a right to it some people want
to start the story um you know in the
1940s you can go back many thousands of
years I mean if you're reading the the
Old Testament of the Bible you're going
back thousands of years and you're
talking they're talking about Israelites
in Israel right so doesn't strike me
that this just you know popped up in the
the 1940s or or something like that
so I don't know man these things are
complicated I
think and I think when you're just just
widening the conversation a little bit
even when you're talking about land
disputes I
mean human beings have been conquering
land for however long I mean who who own
who who has the right to the USA right
there will be people who say who would
say that the entire that the USA is
occupied right now right the Native
Americans or even an individual tribe
has light rights to this specific land
and no matter how much time passes hey
they were there before and they should
maintain that rights other people would
say have a more of a might is right kind
of argument and say well you know it was
con
a lot of people Factor time into this
right time time sort of matters where
you know the longer you've held the land
the more your right to it kind of grows
I don't know if that is correct but I
just think that's how we we we tend to
process it but you can look at a lot of
land all around the world I mean borders
have been drawn and redrawn many many
times and I think this is
also I think In Our Lifetime Tom I think
I think we thought that we were just
like past this all
I think this is why their reaction
to um Russia invading Ukraine was kind
of how it was and the the response to
the Israel Palestine conflict because
there have been lots of conflict you
know throughout our relatively short
lives but I think these are just
reminders of this tribal Warfare and of
the fact that war is a possibility I
mean if you just go back I mean the
1900s World War I World War II I mean in
Europe itself now when people now when
people think of Europe they think of
like a wonderful travel destination and
tourism right like that's what people
think now when they think of Europe if
you just go back under a 100 years ago
it was like people just invading each
other's lands cool you know we we're
we're going to roll in there with the
tanks we're going to go in there like
we're going to expand this border like
Germany is growing and oh we're pushing
back here and you know it was just the
borders weren't really respected and so
I think we all thought that maybe there
was some type of complacency where
everyone just thought okay like we're
That's History we're past that these are
the lines on the map everyone respect
those lines and so when someone is like
nah we want a little bit more and it's
just like what you can't you can't do
that um and I thought that Reed stopped
doing that and then people have that
realization of oh okay it's not static
and stable and all peaceful and we might
like it to be but there are still still
going to be these incursions and I would
like to think and hope that this
Century God I pray that this century is
nothing like is not like the previous
one cu the 20th century was gnarly man
like it was it was horrible I think
people forget how recent it is yes I
think people forget just how Recon like
when you look at Ma's timeline it gets
real sweaty real fast I don't think he
died until the 70s yeah like I don't
think I was alive but whoa was it close
yeah dude I I'll tell you I've been um
I'm reading a book right now on
um something horrible that happened you
know in In Our Lifetime but which I you
know I'm reading a book uh on the Randon
genocide right now
1994 three months about 800,000 people
killed Jesus Christ by their own
neighbors with machetes that's the part
that just okay
so you know we we all go you know we we
study Nazism if you're um most people
study that in school if you're a bit
more intellectually motivated you'll
study communism um what I was just like
okay 1994 this is when I was eight years
old and by the way I remember on the TV
like hearing about stuff like hus and
tootsies and Rwanda and gen I didn't
really know what these words meant right
but I remember just like I have a
recollection of in the TV in the
background and them talking about
something called a genocide right um and
just reading this
book it's so so sobering and
frightening because it didn't
even like it really didn't make sense it
was just pure hatred and group think
because people were killing their own
neighbors this wasn't like okay the
government is rolling in and persecuting
people this is two ethnic groups which
by the way are not even ethnic groups in
the hard way that we typically
understand it it was more of a class
distinction right they speak the same
language most of them are are supposed
to be
Christians all right these are people
who went to church together went to the
same schools played on the same football
teams farmed in the same places
everything lots of them even
intermarried and then literally an event
happens and within 24 hours people are
out there hacking their neighbors and
friends to death some of them killing
their own spouses and their own children
because they're of a different ethnicity
and this went on for three months it was
like 100
right just this brutality for 100 days
like 800,000 people slaughtered in 100
days obviously no internation you know
internationally nobody stepped in to
stop this and it was just stuff like
that freaks me out but I think it's very
important to read I think it's important
to read and understand
because it shows you I think it's
important not to be like blackpilled on
humanity and to think that we're just
just see the evil and the you know the
devilish intent and the homicide and
genocide and stealing and like all of
that stuff like um but it's important
to recognize that we are capable of that
and I think that we tend to not really
study that stuff in depth because we
don't want to right you don't it's not
really fun studying the Third Reich or
studying malous China or studying you
know reading the gulag archipelago
reading ordinary these types of books
like it's brutal but it's not fiction
and that's why it's so important to read
it because then I think that's how you I
think that's how you check yourself I
think to be a good person in the way
that I would the way that I would
describe it I think you have to be very
aware of your capacity for evil I think
that just believing hey I'm just a good
person and I'm just inherently good and
I don't you know I don't do bad I think
I think it's a bit of a dangerous
position because then when stuff goes
sideways when stuff hits the fan um you
you don't really have those boundaries
it's just
like the scary part of all these
situations is like obviously people
thought somehow some way generally
thought they were doing the right thing
in all these
situations and it's weird to look back
with a with an objective lens and be
like um how can you think that doing
what is the most heinous and disgusting
and wrong thing
obviously is the right thing and then
it's like you know what was the buildup
to this what led to it why why wasn't it
stopped you know you have bystander
effect on a gigantic scale going on here
so I think when you when you just see
that if and when you ever encounter that
type of situation or things are even
tilting in that way you talk a lot about
the sort of creeping tyranny and I think
one of the reasons you're so sensitive
to it is because you've studied it right
so you can see the Echoes you can see
the parallels and be like uh wait this
is reminding me this thing is reminding
me of that thing and we're not there yet
but if you keep allowing this to
escalate we could before we know it we
could get to a situation where like I I
would imagine that if you were in um I
don't know
know if you were just a person in
1910 living in England living in Germany
living in France and someone were to
tell you what was going to take place
over the next 40 years I think you would
have been like come on man like we've
evolved past that right like we're
modern people right what do you mean
it's 1910 it's not 1500 right we're past
all that like that can't happen what do
you mean come on we're not going to have
these dictators and multiple genocides
and 100 million plus deaths like
that doesn't even it doesn't even make
sense um and it's like okay here we are
now 100ish years later
and I would also like to think and
believe but it's just like Hey we're in
the first quarter of a new century I
don't know what happens in the 2030s 20
you know the 2040s 2050s and so on like
we we we can't predict it um I hope and
I pray that it's going to be far less
blood and brutal and nasty than the
previous Century but I think the way we
PR prevent that is by being aware of its
possibility I think if we completely
deny our capacity for evil and we deny
that any of us could potentially be on
the wrong side of those things be on the
wrong side of History then that makes it
more
inevitable if people don't even
recognize that um that there's that
potential and so I think that's the
there's a D of focusing too much on the
darkness and there's also a massive
danger in just ignoring it and
pretending that n we're past that that's
history we're all good now because um it
could just take some type of scarcity of
resources or a certain flasho event or
something like that which you know it
not to compare them directly but you
know look at the whole covid situation
right in 2019 if in summer 2019 someone
told you what was going to take place
from you know 2020 up until 2022 with
like all the you would have been like
what that doesn't make sense come on
people aren't going to do that people
aren't going to behave that way like
that doesn't it doesn't add up but yet
it took place and I think if people had
more uh historical awareness um and were
able to were were more sensitive to the
Tyranny and the way that they themselves
could poent potentially participate in
it then I don't think it would have gone
any anywhere near as far as it did yeah
agreed I don't have a lot of optimism
that we'll be able to convince people
the majority of people to look at
themselves and say I have a potential
for evil but I think that it is because
we have so much historical data I think
it is knowable to know what happens when
these things Collide that then will
hopefully tell us why these things
happen my good Instinct looking at
historical context is what ends up
happening is religions get um deformed
in people's minds because there's a
proxy MH for the life that you're trying
to get people to live and so they give
you the the religious framing this is
God God is telling you to do these
things which I think is very helpful
when you want compliance why should I do
this because God told you to I just saw
he had to be a preacher he talked like a
preacher and it was really he gave this
really powerful sermon about uh why
people should be acting a certain way
and he's building to this punch line you
can feel it about why people should do
it for me the punch line would have to
be because it leads to human flourishing
and this is obvious and look at the data
but he goes because God said to do it
and I was like oh wow like that really
is the best Capstone if people believe
it that's the best Capstone there's
nobody else there's no like you've
appealed to the highest Authority and so
the problem becomes when you either
misinterpret what God Said or you fail
to understand okay language is tricky so
I might be misinterpreting this what are
we really trying to get to cuz all these
words are a proxy to lead me somewhere
and if they're not leading me there now
we have a problem it's interesting cuz
the thing that came into my brain is to
me those punch lines are the
same as long
as religion or human beings
interpretation of it has not been
massively corrupted then it's not just
you know God says so because he is a is
a tyrant or B or something like that if
you believe that God's Commandments are
based on what leads to the maximal human
flourishing then it's ultimately the
same it's the same statement phrased in
a different way one is religious
language one is more secular
language sense what I'm saying is you
need look at the data yes and so if
you're using a proxy God told me yes and
you're saying okay there's uh we just
killed 800,000 people but God this is
all following God's lines like I'm just
doing what I was told all those people
they they all stopped they even it's
it's I'm reading a book called machete
season um horrifying titles it's a
horrifying title so it's the guy who
wrote it he interviewed people who he
interviewed The Killers M he interviewed
um about 12 people who
participated in the massacre and
interviews them and it's interesting
because there's a there's a part I just
read yesterday where they're they're
talking about how they you know they
stopped they they like everything church
and religious related they just they
stopped
right they they they totally stopped it
CU they were like you know they they
themselves had the conviction of like
wait this is a hypocrisy how can I be
here you know so religion would have
been a constraining force and they had
to exactly right that off yeah the
Rwandan Genocide was not religious it
wasn't a religious it wasn't a religious
thing just like just like the massacres
of the Nazis and the massacres of Mao
and the massacres of Stalin were not
religious Bas those are fascinating
because that's when you strip religion
what you get people to do away and strip
away the value of the human life yes but
Crusades were very much a religious
thing and uh if you listen to you've all
knowah Harari talk about the Israel
Palestine conflict he's like we are
literally killing each over killing each
other over a rock and it hearing him
talk about it especially because he's
Israeli so you'd expect him to be sort
of culturally um religiously Jewish he
does not he's very secular he's
extremely secular he's able to look at
that and go ah this doesn't make any
sense we're just fighting over a rock
but when you're fighting over a rock
that God told you to fight over now all
of a sudden it's like you see how this
stuff but did God tell you to fight over
it well so what I'm trying to get at is
that people can uh arbitrate that
however they want what I'm saying is
once you realize the Bible the Torah the
whatever whatever that is a proxy for
the good life MH and if you're looking
around you and you see oo we're not
achieving the good life now it's pump
the breaks now it's either and I know
how people will interpret this but it's
either uh God wrote the wrong words or I
am not understanding The Words as
written because if this book adherence
to this book is meant to lead me to the
good life and people are just dying left
right and Center we have a problem
somewhere and what I'm saying is that's
where you want going back to your
original statement that you have to
check it against reality and
so what I'm trying to map in your
thinking is you're very careful to say
whatever you believe has to be checked
against reality I've heard you say other
places you didn't say it today but I've
heard you say it other places reality is
going to going to slap you in the face
like you are going to encounter that
this thing doesn't work uh I'm
interpreting doesn't work meaning it
doesn't lead to human flourishing it
does not yield the outcomes that
everybody would say these are desirable
outcomes however not saying you but I'm
saying there are times where religion
which works this incredible magic trick
of meaning and purpose and getting
people to do things that do lead to a
good life will break down because people
start um getting lost in the uh the
proxy of do this do that Ten
Commandments this that and the other and
they forget it's supposed to yield this
outcome and if not yielding this outcome
figure out what you have to do either
refreshing how you're interpreting this
uh or I mean in in my case another
option would be to depart the religion
but either way you know you're aiming
for human flourishing so what I want to
understand is given that we can point
back to history and just show time and
time and time again we're the very
fallible humans I'm perfectly willing to
say God's word is perfect fine but these
very fallible humans when encountering
God's perfect word still like get into
just Bloodshed left right and Center
okay would you agree that the greatest
massacres and Slaughters of the last
century were all under atheistic regimes
I will say that there are so there is so
much Bloodshed under atheistic regimes
that I certainly don't let them off the
hook yeah so what I'm trying to map
right now is how you think about uh how
do you resolve religious disputes
between religions oh okay
with wow I
mean gosh there's multiple answers to
this I mean I this is this is why it's
funny cuz it's kind of circular to me
cuz I would say by adhering to your
religion so when you look back at
history it's every time is so if look
the mo the the most basic commandment if
you're talking ten command you know Thou
shalt not kill okay let's address that
one okay at least in the Torah old
testament old testament there's a lot
there plenty of violence in that well
not only that but I I I don't know if
it's in the it's in the original Hebrew
as it has been relayed to me that there
is a very conscious distinction in the
word chosen in Hebrew for kill versus
murder Mur and what it says is thou shal
not murder so now it becomes a question
of well what's the distinction so if
somebody's breaking into your house and
they're trying to kill your wife if you
kill them is that murder or are you
doing exactly what God would want you to
do in the face of that evil no it's it's
it's self-defense um and that's also in
the Old Testament that is selfdefense
how do you zubie yes from a values
perspective think through the Collision
of religions and for me the the
importance of this question is I see
this coming all right so me personally
again like I grew up in Saudi Arabia as
a Christian I was surround from my from
very young age I've been surrounded by
everybody different ethnicities
nationalities belief systems and so on
gr I have tons of Muslim friends tons of
of Christian friends tons of Jewish
friends atheistic friends Hindu friends
so on so
forth love are our love for each other
being one another's friends neighbors
countrymen Associates colleagues
whatever it
is that
trumps well F firstly there's no like
within my own religion I can't speak for
every religion out there there is no
reason there's no commandment or word
from God or anything saying that I am
supposed to hate anyone let alone
because of
their religion or their ethnicity
background anything like that quite the
very opposite in fact like the Bible is
totally opposed to those the New
Testament teachings are opposed to that
the story of the Good Samaritan the
Golden Rule all of these things are
these are this is not oh everyone here
is of the same from the same region it
talks a lot about you know the
foreigners and you know the Jews and the
Gentiles and so on and so forth
and the whole parable of the Good
Samaritan and I think sometimes people
overlook this because the whole point
the whole reason it was a Samaritan is
because samarians at that time were like
the opponents right but that it was the
Good Samaritan who actually helped the
man who had been uh you know beaten and
stripped and robbed and so on and Jesus
ask which of these people was his
neighbor right the Pharisee passes by
the person who's supposed to be you know
a priest a levite passes by and does not
help this person and the person who
helps him is someone who on paper in
terms of their Tri tribes and their
ethnic conflicts and whatever is
supposed to be an enemy I think the most
radical commandment in Christianity is
love your enemy yep because that is
not that is not common sense but not all
the world adheres to Christianity so my
question about the Collision of
religions so you're what I hear you
saying is if everybody think you're
thinking so you you're you're probably
thinking of like the more aggressive
elements of Islam that is certainly a
potential issue but even if even if you
back out of that and just think from a
value system
perspective uh if somebody's value
system says um I must adhere to the the
word of my Holy
Scripture that's where already I start
getting nervous okay because I go whoa
if the word of your Holy scripture is
infallible then it might say some things
that get deeply uncomfortable right you
can find things in the Bible that will
stress you out if you have to adhere to
every word of it what
specifically this is where I am not
going to be the best but I will say
Obviously uh Stone Old Testament but
stoning people to death for
homosexuality as one example okay I'm
sure there are many more that like
um so like uh Mosaic law so the some of
the mosaic laws that were prescribed
very specifically for the people
at that time thousands of years ago I
don't know what Mosaic law is but I'll
say sure okay well Mosaic law is the law
of like the the laws of Moses so going
back to the Old Testament the Hebrews
Israelites at a very specific time they
had certain laws and customs this is
where the you know don't eat shellfish
don't don't eat pork don't wear clothing
of you know two different Fabrics
together don't cut the sides of your and
so on right like these things that you
know Christians don't generally adhere
to because there's a separation between
the old Covenant and the New Covenant
which is why you know you're not having
Christian societies where they're out
here stoning people or or anything like
that so with I I'm curious is in like
within the New Testament is there
something there that strikes you as hey
this is something that a person even if
they were to kind of take get out of
context somewhat that is this is scary
like this is something that could lead
to violence or something like that
because what causes me concern is that
you don't have to go back farther than
um uh Ireland to see you get Wars
between Protestants and Catholics and
people killing each other and bombing
because they believe that they
understand the true word of God better
than the next person so I'm just just I
get you my my my point is simply that
there is tribalism yeah tribalism exists
MH my point is that tribalism happens
with or without religion agreed someone
can we were just talking about the
Rwanda genocide completely tribal right
these people are supposed to be of the
same Faith they're countrymen they're
obviously the same race and whatever um
so the I'm not I'm not um an expert on
you know the Troubles of Northern
Ireland between the clashes between the
Protestants and the Catholics um but
that strikes me as an a tribal conflict
right they're not there saying hey the
Bible says that I mean the Bible doesn't
even talk about Protestants and
Catholics right um you're all bent to be
no but they do have interpretation so
they are saying you're interpreting that
thing wrong that he said but I don't
want to get lost in this what I'm trying
to get to is that uh for me when you
have a clash of religions you need only
ask people what is your North Star yes
my belief is that uh either people are
going to agree let's say Catholics and
Protestants they're going to describe
the exact same Northstar and then I'm
going say amazing is what you're doing
right now achieving that Northstar no
it's not and they're going to say one of
two things we have to push through this
moment of Bloodshed to get to the true
word of in this case Christ but that's
literally
irrelevant okay now we know you guys are
going to fight bloody to get on the
other side and you don't care about that
and so I'm going to go cool that
violates my value system I'm saying you
have to diffuse this before this gets
violent and so that's my value system
but at least now you're giving me the
thing I need to understand to predict
your next move which I'm all about
predictive validity so my predictive
engine tells me that there is a coming
collision between Christianity and Islam
so I'm just like okay word same thing
going to be hey I need each group to
tell me what their Northstar is what are
we aiming for do we want human
flourishing whatever whatever and we
will either be like oh wow okay cool you
guys are both aiming for the same thing
amazing we about to live in harmony or
do we have to push through some moment
Bloodshed and only my way is going to
win and if we can all agree okay cool
this is Northstar that we're aiming for
now we have the barometer by which we
can judge our current and future actions
oh I need to stop doing this because
it's not yielding that or hey yeah I'm
gonna [ __ ] kill everybody I need to
kill to get on the other side of this
and then I can be like holy [ __ ] but I'm
trying to get people to articulate out
loud how are you going to handle this
moment I'm not saying either a right or
wrong I just want to know interesting I
think I think maybe I'm struggling to
understand the question because
it's to me it's like very it's very
simple so I'm not trying to I'm not
trying to dance around any answers I'm
trying I'm trying to fully I'm probably
doing a bad job of explaining so yeah so
I I think look how about we can agree
on no
murder no
violence if we can agree on that yeah if
if we can agree on that I mean generally
as a society we agree on this like if we
didn't agree on this as a society our
nations would not function at all in any
way look at the USA the USA is in by
many measures the most diverse country
in the world certainly one of you've got
probably 340 350 million people
scattered across thousands and thousands
of miles different races um
nationalities backgrounds ethnicities
religious systems very different
political ideologies very different ways
of living um and you have to have
certain basic agreements so you there's
a massive amount of diversity and as
long as people respect certain basic
principles then it's okay people can
have qu conversations about you know how
much diversity do they think good is bad
or what immigration policy should be and
so on and so forth but if you can all
agree hey despite our differences
political by the way I'd say the
political differences are far more fiery
in this country than the religious ones
um regardless of our political beliefs
our religious beliefs um where we're
from whatever we to agree on some real
basic principles and you can get these
from The Ten Commandments or elsewhere
we don't steal we don't
kill we don't rape we don't assault we
don't you can't hurt other people you
can disagree with someone entirely you
could take the most the strongest
Evangelical right-wing Christian and the
most atheistic left-wing communist
person and as long as they can agree hey
we can fight with words we can argue we
can debate whatever I'm not going to
take your stuff and I'm not going to
physically hurt you I'm not going to
hurt your family I'm not going to damage
your property I'm not going to If people
could agree on that we're good like I
said there's a tiny tiny percentage of
people who with or without
religion they are they have Criminal
Intent and they don't respect that they
don't respect human life they don't
respect private property they're willing
to take what they want they're willing
to go out there assault and and that's
always existed sadly if the state gets
involved in that then that's when I
think we're really really in trouble
which is why we always have to have that
check against tyranny but if it's just
individuals then the question is okay
how do we deal with those how do we deal
the question to me is more like how do
we deal with violent
individuals okay because I don't see a
future where you know the majority of
Muslims the majority of Christians are
wanting to have some like war and clash
in this in this modern era like I don't
I don't see that I don't think people
want that smoke I don't think that's
what's in people's hearts um I mean if
you look even at terrorism the majority
of terrorism that happens in the Islamic
world is directed at other Muslims it's
not even like it's it's often tribal
again there might be the veneer of it
being based on religion often times it's
just tribal it's like this group has
some historical beef with the other
group and maybe they you know use
religion as their means
to supposedly rationalize it or to Rally
other people to their cause by claiming
that it's some type of religious fight
this is how I see again I'm not an
expert with what happened in Northern
Ireland but that is how I see it like it
is insane to me that a group of
Catholics and Christians are going to
start like bombing each other like and
they did they did but my I don't think
that I think they would have done it
without the
religion because we've seen gosh we we
we my my point is just like human beings
do this right Nazi Germany that was not
about religion ma CH my China that was
not about religion Soviet Russia it was
not about religion if you can go through
all sorts of conflicts in Europe and in
Asia and so on China versus Japan like
none of that was fued by religion it's
Tribal and religion is one thing that
can make that can put someone in a tribe
and you can go quite narrow with that
because there's different denominations
even within the same religion um but I
think that often times other things are
conflated with tribalism I think a lot
of what people in the USA for example or
in the UK call racism is
tribalism and you know I'm my family is
originally from Nigeria and something
that's interesting particularly for
Western listeners to understand is that
some of the intertribal conflicts that
exist within Nigeria and other African
countri countries are far
more
venomous and serious than any quote
unquote racism that exists in the USA or
the UK between black people and white
people or anything like that right so
it's the tribalism it's not hey
you're skin color is one way that that
can happen it can happen with
nationality it can be oh you're I'm
British you're French so you know we
don't like each other like if if you
look at a British person and a French
person like they don't look look that
different right Serbia and cro serbs and
croats right um Can it can literally be
do Israelis and Palestinians like
ethnically do they are they like totally
different looking and they're like it's
like you're from the same region to an
outsider you might just like see a group
of Israelis see a group of Palestinians
like I can't really tell I can't really
tell the difference visually um so I
think a lot of stuff is just tribalism
it's that ingroup outgroup and I think
when the problem comes when there is a
hatred an animosity and ultimately a
respect a disrespect for human life so I
agree with you wildly on that tribalism
is uh a huge problem I just know if I
ask you then okay what do we do about
tribalism you're going to come back to
people need to adhere to Christian
values no I I wouldn't even come back to
that so how do we then because if you if
you want to say if by Christian values
you mean respect for the sanctity of
life love your neighbor as yourself Thou
shalt not steal Thou shalt not kill then
yeah totally agree but I'm also aware
that you don't need to be a Christian to
believe those things I don't think those
specific things are entirely unique to
Christian te teachings most atheists
generally would agree on those points
right um people of other faiths would
agree on those points and that's what
needs to be respected once you cross
that line of okay I have a feeling or a
belief or an
opinion that's in my head and other
people have things in their head which I
may agree with disagree with like
dislike or whatever once you cross that
line of okay therefore I am justified in
hurting stealing killing assaulting no
matter your ideology no matter your
supposed uh belief system or lack their
of however way you're framing it
no right that that has to be that has to
be the line I would say the exact same
thing politically right people can have
such varying political opinions left
versus right conservative liberal
Progressive woke anti-woke whatever and
they can you know verbally Clash they
can have the Battle of ideas they can
even yell at each other in certain times
as soon as someone crosses that line
right and hit someone you know shoot
someone attack someone no right and
that's where the rule of law is
extremely important there can't be a
tolerance of that there can't be a
tolerance of okay well you were
Justified because he thought the wrong
thing right do you remember a few years
ago I say a few years it's probably
about eight years ago now do you
remember that whole
um that that time when like there was
that whole like punch a Nazi thing do
you remember that yes
okay I don't like
Nazis but I was like no actually if it's
just Nazi is hey someone's saying things
you disagree with or you find
distasteful and maybe they even upset
you or make you angry if it's like hey
okay you've got a green light to
physically assault that person
non-violent person just saying
things I understand that gut reaction
that animalistic tendency but it's like
uh no actually that that's that's
crossing the line right what that's
crossing the line when you start
violently attacking someone because you
don't like something that they said or
you don't like a belief that is in their
brain um so I I actually remember that
time because I remember even having like
arguments and debates with people who
were saying like oh yeah like that's
totally fine that's Justified like and I
was like well slippery slope right let's
think about this and also let's think
about how Loosely the word Nazi is being
deployed right you're just starting to
they're just starting to kind of throw
that out at anyone who's remotely
conservative or rightwing um you know
then what do we have what punch of punch
a socialist then what punch a liberal
punch a woki no let's not go there you
know that's why I guess I think that
it's it's quite simple because I don't
think it's um I think it's agnostic to
the religion or the political belief or
the ideology or the tribe or the race or
the ethnicity or the nationality I just
think it's got to be that line of hey no
violence no violence right this religion
is growing that religion is growing I
think by around 2060 I think the global
populations of Muslims and
christianities are going to equalize so
at the moment there's think about 2.5
billion Christians Islam I think is
between 1.5 it's about about 1.5 billion
and it's the fastest growing so that's
when it's going to meet a point where
the numbers are equal I think at that
point also 40% of Christians will be uh
in subsaharan Africa so here's an
interesting fact I don't know if you
know this cuz it Doesn't feel it in the
west but the world is actually becoming
more religious as a percentage all right
people that get value out of the way you
think where should they follow you zubi
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my friends be legendary take care peace
if you like this conversation check out
this episode to learn more we are being
naive not at least publicly entertaining
the possibility that our antagonists
abroad would take advantage of our
famous lack of security and you're going
to see why we have to talk about
genocide somebody has to open these
topics if we are