Kind: captions
Language: en
revolutions don't always come with
banners and protests sometimes the only
shots fired are Snippets of code this is
one of those moments AI is the most
disruptive force in history and it's no
longer a distant possibility it is here
right now and it's already changing the
foundations of power and the economy few
people have been as influential in
shaping the direction of AI than Mega
investor Ben Horowitz a Pioneer in
Silicon Valley he spent decades at the
center of every major technological
disruption including standing up to the
Biden administration's attempts to limit
and control AI in today's episode he
lays out where AI is really taking us
the forces that will Define the next
decade and how to position yourself
before it's too
late you are uh in an area making
Investments thinking about some of the
things that I think are the most
consequential in the world today as it
relates to Innovation but along those
lines you and Mark dreon are all in on
AI but how do we make sure that it
benefits everyone instead of making
humans obsolete to begin with we have to
just realize you know what AI is because
I think that because we called it
artificial intelligence you know our our
whole industry of technology has a
naming problem and that we started you
know by calling computer science
computer science which everybody thought
oh that's just like computers it's like
the science of a machine as opposed to
information Theory and what it really
was and then in web 3 world which you're
familiar with we called it
cryptocurrency which to normal people
means secret money but that's not that's
a good point and then I think with
artificial intelligence um I think
that's also like a bad name in a lot of
ways and that you know look the people
who work on in the field call what
they're building models and I think
that's a a really accurate description
in the sense that um what we're doing is
we're kind of modeling something we've
always done which is we're trying to
model the world um in a way that enables
us to predict it and then you know we've
built much more sophisticated models
with this technology uh than we could
you know in the old days we had E equals
MC s which was like amazing but a
relatively simple model uh now we have
models with what like 600 billion
variables in this kind of thing uh and
we can model like what's the next word
that I should say uh and that kind of
thing so um so that's amazing and
Powerful but I would say like we need to
distinguish the fact that um it's a
model uh that is directed by us to tell
us things about the world and and do
things on our behalf but it's not a uh
it's not life it doesn't have a free
will and these kinds of things so I
think default um it you know we are the
master and it is uh it is the servant um
as opposed to vice versa the question
though that you're getting at which is
okay how do we not get obsoleted like
why do we need us if we've got these
things that can do all the jobs that we
currently do um and I think you know
we've gone through that in the past um
and it's been interesting right so in I
think 1750 over 90% of the jobs in the
country were agricultural um and you
know there was a huge fight in a group
called The leites that fought the plow
and you know some of these um new
fangled inventions uh that eventually by
the way eliminated 97% of the jobs uh
that were there um but I think that most
people would say
gee the life I have now is better than
the life that I would have had on the
farm um where all I did was Farm
and nothing else in life uh but you know
like and if you want to farm still you
can that is an option uh but most people
don't take that option so the jobs that
we have now will you know a lot of them
will go away and uh we'll have but we'll
likely have new jobs I mean humans are
pretty good at figuring out new things
to do and new uh things to pursue and so
forth um and you know like including
like going to Mars and that kind of
thing uh which obviously isn't a thing
today but could very well be a thing
tomorrow um so I think that you know we
have to stay creative and and uh keep
dreaming about like a better future and
how to kind of improve things for people
but I think that you know
particularly for kind of the people in
the world that are on The Struggle Bus
who are living on a dollar a day or um
you know kind of subject to all kinds of
diseases and so forth life is going to
get like radically better for them when
I look at the plow example and the
leites fighting against it I think
you'll see the same thing with AI you're
going to get people that just completely
reject it refuse to engage in anything
for sure uh but when I look at AI what I
worry about is that there will be no
refuge to go to meaning if you realize
oh I can't plow as well as uh a plow or
a tractor or now a combine there's still
a lot of other things that technology
can't do better than me do you think
there's an upper bound to artificial
intelligence bad name or not or do you
think that it keeps going and it it
literally becomes better than us once
it's embodied in robotics at everything
we are kind of limited by the new ideas
that we have um and and artificial
intelligence is really by the way
artificial human intelligence meaning um
right humans looked at the world humans
figured out what it was you know
described it came up with these concept
like trees and you know uh air and and
all this stuff that it's not necessarily
real just how we just decided to
structure the world and AI has learned
our structure like they've learned
language human language which is a
version of the universe that is not an
accurate version of the universe it's
just our version of the universe so it's
the you're going to have to go deep on
that I know my audience is going to be
like air seems pretty real when you're
underwater what do you mean that trees
in air are not NE neily real it's look
it's it's a construction that we made
you know we decided it it is literally
the way humans have interpreted the
world in order for humans to navigate it
um and you know as is language right
language isn't um the universe as it is
like if if uh completely objective if
you had an objective look at you know
the atoms and so forth and how they were
arranged and and and whatnot um you
probably you know those descriptions are
lacking in a lot of ways they're not
completely accurate um they don't they
you know they certainly don't kind of
predict everything about how the world
works and so what machines have learned
or like what artificial intelligence is
is an understanding of our knowledge um
of of the human knowledge so it's taken
in our knowledge of the universe and
then it is um kind of can refine that
and it can work on that and it can
derive things from our knowledge our
Axiom set but it isn't actually
observing the world at this point and
figuring out new stuff so you know at
the very least you know humans still
have to um discover new principles of
the universe or or kind of interpret it
in a different way or the machines have
to somehow observe directly the world
which they're not yet doing um and so
that you know that's a pretty big role I
would say but then you know in in
addition you know we direct the world I
think like Star Trek is actually a
pretty good metaphor for that like the
Star Trek computer was pretty badass um
but you know the people in Star Trek
were still like flying around the
universe discovering new things about it
um you there were still much to do and I
think that it's
always a little uh kind of difficult to
figure out what the new jobs that get
created are um and we've had
intelligence for a while right like
we've had machines that could do math
way better than us um
and you know I mean I I can
remember um when I was in junior high
school uh or Junior High put on a play
about like how bad it was that there
were calculators because nobody would
know how to do arithmetic and then all
the calculators would break and then
we'd be stuck we'd be trying to like fly
around the universe and Rockets and then
but we wouldn't be able to do math and
the calculators would be broken we'd be
screwed um so so there is always that
fear
uh and you know we've had computers that
can play games better than us we
currently have computers that can drive
better than us and so forth um so we
have a lot of intelligence out there uh
but it hasn't
um you know created like this super
distopia you know in any degree it's
actually made things better you know
every everywhere it's appeared so I
would expect that to
continue what do you think though is the
limiting function so when I look at AI
uh I always say unless we run into an
upper bound where the computation just
can't allow the intelligence to keep
progressing um it seems like it will
become not only generalized human
intelligence and thus they be able to do
everything that we can do uh it will
become embodied as Robotics and if I ran
the math on this once Einstein is
roughly 2.4 times smarter than someone
who is definitionally a and the
Gap just between those two is so
dramatic the AR won't even um draft
somebody that is a at you know
whatever 81 IQ or whatever it is uh
because it's they create more problems
than they solve even just by being uh
you know bullet fodder so do you think
there is something that's going to cause
that upper bound or you have a belief
about the nature of intelligence that
will keep AI subservient to us the the
smartest people don't rule the world
world you know Einstein wasn't in charge
um
and you know many of us are are like
rolled by are cats um and so like power
and intelligence don't don't necessarily
go together particularly when the
intelligence has no free will or has no
desirea free will it doesn't have will
um you know it it is kind of a model
that's Computing things um I think also
you know the whole general intelligence
thing is interesting in that you know
wh's got a super smart AI that can drive
a car but that AI that drives a card
doesn't know English um and you know
isn't you know particularly good at
other tasks you know currently and and
then the chat GPT can't drive a car uh
and so
that's you know
how much things generalize particularly
and if you look at why is that um a lot
of it actually has to do with the long
taale of human behavior where um humans
uh you know the distribution of human
behavior is um it's fractal it's mantal
bradian or whatever um it's not evenly
distributed at all uh and
so you know an AI that kind of captures
all that turns out to be
you know we're not so much on the track
we're we're more on the track for kind
of really great reasoning over kind of a
set of axioms that we came up with um
you know in say math or physics uh but
not so much um you know kind of General
human intelligence which is uh you know
being able to navigate other humans and
the world in a way that uh is productive
for us is kind of a it's a little bit of
a different dimension of things you know
yeah you can compare the math
capabilities or the go playing
capabilities or the driving capabilities
or the IQ test capabilities of a
computer um but that that's not really a
human I I think a human is kind of
different in a fairly fundamental way um
so what we end up doing I think it's
going to be different than what we're
doing today just like what we're doing
today is very different than what we did
100 years
ago but you know the the not having a
need for us I think that you know these
these AIS are tools for us um to
basically navigate the world and help us
solve problems and and do things um like
you know everything from prevent
pandemics to deal with uh climate change
to to that sort of thing um to not kill
each other driving cars uh which we do a
lot of um you know hopefully it doesn't
you know uh create more Wars hopefully
it creates less Wars um but we'll see
what I know about the human brain maybe
tricking me into painting a vision of
the future that isn't going to come true
let me put words in your mouth and you
tell me if they fit appropriately uh
what I hear you saying is something akin
to the way that we're approaching
artificial intelligence right now let's
round it to large language models uh
that is going to hit an upper bound
where it's not able to uh have insights
that a human will already have that they
are trapped inside of the box that we
have created what you're calling the
axioms by which we navigate the world
they get trapped inside that box and
thusly will never be able to look at the
world and go um I'm not going to predict
the next frame I'm going to render the
next frame based on what I know about
physics and so water reacts this way in
a Earthbound gravity system and so it's
going to Splash like this and it
understand liquid Dynamics etc etc uh so
is that accurate are you saying that it
is trapped inside of our box and we'll
never have it hasn't demonstrated that
capability yet so like you you know it
hasn't like walked up to a rock and said
this is a rock right we labeled it a
rock because that's our structure but
you know a rock isn't probably
the a more intelligent being would have
called it something else or or maybe the
rock is irrelevant um you know to how
you actually can navigate the the world
safely uh and kind of figuring those
things out or kind of adopting to them
is just not something that
um you know it's trained on our on our
rendition of the universe uh in our kind
of literally like the way we have
described it using language that we
invented uh and so it is
um it is constrained a bit to in nature
currently
um you know that doesn't mean it's not
like a massively useful tool and can do
things and and by the way can derive new
rules from the old rules that we've
given it um for
sure uh but you know
will like I think it's a bit of a jump
to go you know it's going to replace
entirely
when the whole Discovery process is
something that we do that it doesn't do
yet okay the way that the human mind is
architected is you have competing
regions of the brain like if you cut the
Corpus colossum the part that connects
the left and the right hemisphere you
can get two distinct personalities one
that is atheist for instance and one
that uh believes deeply in God and
they'll argue back and forth I mean this
is in the same human brain so that tells
me that what you have is basically uh
regions of the brain that get good at a
thing and then they end up coming
together to collaborate and that is sort
of human intelligence and I've heard you
talk about there's something like 200
computers inside of a single car uh so
if we already know that you can daisy
chain all of these like it's it's a very
deep knowledge about one thing but as
you daisy chain them the intelligence
gets what I'll call more generalized you
don't see that as a flywheel that that
is going to keep going you know what we
can compute will
get better and better and better
uh but having said that you know that
doesn't say that um like
humans one you know humans built the
machines plug them in give them the
batteries all these kinds of things um
and uh you know and they've been created
to fulfill our purposes so you know what
it means to be a human will probably
will change like it has been changing um
and kind of how humans live their life
will
change but humans still find things to
do I mean like it's kind of like you
know like a cheetah has been able to run
faster than a human forever but we never
watch cheetah's race we only watch
humans race each other um you know
computers have played chess better than
humans for a long time but nobody
watches computers play chess anymore
they watch humans play humans and chess
is more popular than it's ever been and
so I think we have like a keen interest
in each other and
uh and how that's going to work and
these will be kind of tools to enhance
that whole experience for us but I think
it's you
know like a world of just machines um
seems like that seems like really
unlikely so you've got people like um
Elon Musk Sam Alman who have both
expressed deep concerns about how um AI
May in fact make us obsolete Elon has
likened he's certainly become fatalistic
uh but he gave a rant that I absolutely
love that is AI is a demon summoning
Circle and you're calling forward this
demon that you were just convinced
you're going to be able to control and
he certainly is not so sure and at one
point and again I'm fully aware that
he's on his fatalist Arc and he's just
moving forward and he's building as fast
as he can like it's interesting that
both of them despite saying these things
are building AI as fast as like like
they're literally in a race with each
other to see who can build it faster who
can the demon faster that they're
warning
about what do you take away from that is
it just regulatory capture on both of
their parts is it um is Elon being
sinere not that I need you to mind read
him but like what do you take away in
the fact that they've both warned
against it and they're both deploying it
as fast as they can yeah yeah it seems
fairly
contradictory um look look I I think
there's like I I I won't question either
of their sincerity at some degree but I
do think there are
um many reasons to warn about it but
like I I also think that you know any
kind of new super powerful technology I
you know in a way they're right to kind
of warn about like
okay this thing if we
um you know if we don't think about some
of the implications of it could get
dangerous and I think that's a good
thing like every technology we've ever
had from fire to um you know from fire
to automobiles to nuclear to AI has
got the internet um has got downsides to
it they all have downsides uh and the
more powerful the more kind
of you know kind of intriguing the
downside and you know maybe like you
know without the internet we probably
would have never gotten to AI um and uh
so maybe that was the downside of the
internet that it led to AI or something
like that you could
argue but I think generally we would
take every technology we've invented and
keep it because you know uh net net
they've been positive uh for Humanity
and for the world and and that's
generally and that's why I think they're
building it so fast because I think they
know that all right so anybody with a
17-year-old right now is thinking oh my
how where do I point my kid what do I
tell them to go study that's future
proof what can we learn about the way
you guys are investing at andrees and
Horowitz uh that would give somebody an
inclination of what you think a
17-year-old should be focused on now
yeah I you know it's really interesting
I think one of the things um what what
we're saying in the kind of smartest
young people that come out is they spend
a lot of time with AI learning
everything they possibly can so I think
you want to get very good at like hik
curiosity and um and then learning you
know you have available to you all of
human knowledge in something that will
talk to you uh and that's you know
that's an incredible opportunity and I
think that anything you want to do in
the world to make the world better um
you now have the tools as an individual
to do that in a way that you know if you
look at kind of what Thomas Edison had
to do in creating GE and like what that
took and and so forth you know it was a
way higher bar to have an impact um
whereas now I
think you know you can very quickly um
you know build something or do something
that you know just pick a problem it's
not like you know sometimes in this AI
conversation the thing that we ignore is
like what are the problems that we have
in the world well they well we still
have cancer and diabetes and ccle cell
and and every disease and we still have
the threat of pandemics and we still
have climate change and we still have
you know lots of people who are starving
to death and we still have malaria and
and so like pick a problem you want to
solve uh and now um you know you have a
huge helping hand in doing that that
nobody in the history of the planet has
ever had before us so I think there's
really great opportunities along those
lines um
so that that would be my you
know my best advice I think is to to to
get really good with that and uh and
look I think a lot of the things that
we've learned or that have been valuable
skills traditionally are going to change
so you really you know again want to be
able to learn how to do anything uh and
and I think that's probably uh going to
be key we'll get back to the show in a
moment but first let's talk about
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now let's get back to the
show when I look at the things you were
just talking about that feels right for
people that have the the inclination
that have the cognitive horsepower to go
and say okay I'm going to leverage AI to
extend my capabilities to tackle the
biggest problems in the world certainly
right now in this moment that that is
the thrilling reality that people should
focus on but then I contrast that with
the deaths of
Despair uh a among
largely young men
um we have this problem in call it
Middle America where manufacturing jobs
have gone away so for that normal just
sort of everyday person I want to have a
trade I want to go out into the world
and get something done is AI going to be
useful to them or are they going to get
replaced by robotics the truth of it is
is there's only one robot supply chain
in the world and that's in China
and you know so like we all need a robot
supply chain um we need to manufacture
that so I think there's going to be like
a real uh manufacturing opportunity um
coming up to and it'll be a different
kind of manufacturing certainly more
will be automated and so forth but there
will be a lot of things to learn in that
field that I think will be uh you know
super interesting and um and you know
likely very very good jobs so I
ironically would say like going into
manufacturing now as a as a young man
and trying to you know kind of figure
out what that is and get engaged in it
will probably lead to you know quite a
good career you know maybe in creating
uh factories have become like insanely
valuable and and and kind of N and
strategic to the national interests as
well that makes sense so again at the
level of the guy smart enough to build
the facility yes and I recently saw a
video of the grocery store of the future
where it is a huge grid inside of a
giant facility and there's just uh like
these Bots that look kind of like small
shopping carts and they're just grid
patterning across all the items
snatching up whatever you order uh so
you order online these things grab all
that stuff and then they send it off to
you uh so for the person that's Savvy
enough to build that facility uh yes
tremendous um but what I think I hear
you saying and correct me if I'm wrong
is that okay there are two opport OPP
unities here the opportunity one is if
you're the kind of person that can
leverage AI to build that facility
massive opportunity if you're the kind
of person that would traditionally work
at that factory something new is coming
we know that because looking back at
history all these Technologies unleash
things we can't yet see and so I have
faith in the we can't yet see it but it
is
coming yeah now for sure like I mean you
know what like the biggest in demand job
in the world is right now data
labelers and look data label wasn't a
job not long ago but if you talk I heard
of this what is data
labeling yeah so it's what Alexa that's
what scale AI does you know they they
pay armies and armies and armies of
people to label data um so say hey this
is a plant or this is you know a fig or
whatever it is for the AI to then
understand it and then you know now with
the
um you know with the with the kind of
reinforcement learning coming back into
play um you know labeling you know that
that kind of supervised learning is
still like very very very important uh
and I think that
um you know right now like he's got
unlimited hiring demand which is you
know ironic for scale AI to have
unlimited need for humans and I think
you know in manufacturing there are
going to be jobs like that and there
will be the kind of physical uh
well when you go and you go into these
robot like the software companies that
are doing robotics um they have
people managing the robots right like
they're training the robots humans train
robots uh to do all kinds of things and
it turns out that like folding
clothes doesn't necessarily generalize
to making eggs
um they they're like super different for
robots uh and so you need you know these
robots trained in all these kinds of
fields and so forth so I think there's
you know there's a whole new class of
jobs that are a little bit hard to
anticipate
um you know in advance uh but I think at
least for the next 10 years I think the
the number of new jobs related to making
these machines smarter is going to
increase a lot uh and then after that
you know like I think there will be
there just tend to be like throughout
history so many needs for new things
that we never anticipated like well I
mean you know one of my favorite
examples is okay computers desk
computers are going to kill the typ
setting business and they did everybody
knew that like that was coming nobody
nobody said oh and then there's going to
be five million graphic design jobs that
come out of the PC like
nobody not not a person predicted that
so it's really easy to figure out which
jobs are going to go away it's much more
difficult to kind of figure out which
jobs are going to come but like if you
look at the history of automation um
which is kind of automated away
everything we did a hundred years
ago there's less unemployment now than
there was then and so you
go okay and then you know like some of
the employment will be much more I think
enjoyable than the old employment as
well as it has been you know over time
and you we always talk about
manufacturing jobs going away but the
manufacturing jobs that have gone away
have been the most mind-numbing so I
think you know things evolve in very
very unpredictable ways um and you know
like I I think the hope is that you know
the world just gets much better but I'm
not I'm
not so worried about kind of
anticipating all the horror that's going
to come in I mean I think the main
reason we're making these things is you
know the ways that they're making life
better uh and you just like we finally
figured out a way for everybody like we
already have in our hands um everybody
can get a great education like that
whole
inequality of access to education is
like literally gone right now um which
is pretty amazing I mean it's certainly
huge yeah nothing that I ever thought
I'd see
so hopefully um things go well the great
irony it's so crazy I don't think
anybody anybody saw that coming it was
always going to be it's going to go for
the drivers it's going to go for all
those hard difficult repetitive tasks
yeah it's been very fascinating to see
what actually is in danger like super
creative jobs very much in danger um but
yeah as you get down I mean look I think
I believe way more strongly than you do
that robots are just going to get better
and better and better and better uh but
that that could be that I'm not as close
to the problem as you are uh speaking of
which how the insights that you've had
into AI how are they informing the
Investments that you guys make the
theory is there's this one like super
intelligent big brain that's going to do
everything the reality on the ground is
even with the state-of-the-art models
they're all kind of good at slightly
different things right like you know
anthropic is like really good at code um
and grock is really good at like
real-time data because they've got the
Twitter stuff and then you know open AI
has gotten like very very good at
reasoning um so with all all of them
were doing AGI but then they're all good
at different stuff which is you know
from an investing standpoint it's very
good to know
that be because if something like that's
not win or take all that's very that
becomes like super interesting it also
is interesting uh for what it means
means at the application layer because
if the infrastructure products aren't
win or take all and then the other thing
about the infrastructure products that's
interesting is that they're not
particularly sticky um in the way that
kind of Microsoft Windows was very
sticky right it was sticky you build an
application on Windows it doesn't rent
on other stuff you've got to do a lot of
work to move it to something else so you
get this network effect with Developers
then you go okay well how how does that
work with state-of-the-art models well
people build applications on these
things but guess what like to move your
application to deep seek you didn't have
to change the line of code they just
literally took the open AI python API
and like it runs on deep seek now
Tada uh so you know that that kind of
thing really impacts you know how you
think about investing and like what is
the value of having a leading
application and then you know where's
the mode going to come from and of
course AI is also getting like the one
thing it is getting amazingly good at is
writing code and so then you know how
much of a lead do you have in the code
itself versus um you know kind of the
other traditional things you know when I
started in the
industry the salespeople were in charge
um they were kind of like the big there
there's a great uh TV show called Halt
and Catch Fire And if you watch was so
good like the thing that's really
stunning if you're you know kind of
coming from the uh 2010s 2020s world is
why are the salespeople so
powerful but they were the most powerful
in those days uh and it was because you
know distribution was the most difficult
thing um and I you know I think
distribution is going to get in very
very important again uh because
maintaining a technological lead is it's
a lot harder you know when the machine
is writing the code and writing it very
fast although it's not you know it's not
all the way where it can you know build
like super complex systems but there's
you know if a bunch of things out now
you know rep blits got a great product
for it there's company called lovable
that's got one out of Sweden um that
just builds you an app like if you need
an app for something and just say bu me
this app and there it is yeah another
thing in cursor that you can select yeah
what model you want to use for whatever
thing that you're about to generate so
the ability to go oh I want 10 of these
things I'm gonna use this one for this
kind of code this one for that kind of
code it's really fascinating um now the
Biden Administration was super hostile
towards Tech uh when you look at what's
going on now with the changes in
regulatory um what do you think about
the race between us and China were we
headed down a dark path where if that
administration had stayed with that like
we're going to have one or two companies
we're going to control them that's going
to be that is it possible we could have
lost that race is that race a figment of
my imagination is that real I think that
there's kind of multiple layers to the
uh AI race with China and then you know
the Biden Administration
was kind of hosle in in many ways but
all for kind of a central reason I think
um
so you know in AI in particular uh you
know when we met um and I I should be
very specific so it wasn't we did meet
with Jake Sullivan but he was very good
about it we met with Gina Rondo she was
very good about it um but we met with
the the kind of white house uh and their
you know their position was uh super
kind of I would say ill informed um so
they basically were they they watch in
with this idea that like we've got a
three-year lead on China and um we have
to protect that lead and there's
no um and therefore we need to shut down
open source and that doesn't matter to
you guys and startups because startups
can't participate in AI anyway um
because they don't have enough money uh
and the only companies that are going to
do AI are going going to be kind of
ironically the two startups anthropic
and open AI that are out and then the
big companies Google and so forth and
Microsoft and so we can put a huge
regulatory barrier on them because they
have the money and the people to deal
with it uh and then that'll be and you
know in their minds I think they
actually believe that that would be how
we would win um but of course you know
in retrospect that makes no sense uh and
it kind of it damages you know if you
look at China and what China's great at
then this goes to the next thing so
there's how good is your AI and then how
well is it integrated into your military
and the way the government works and so
forth and I think that China being a
top- down Society their strength is
um you know that whatever AI they have
they're going to integrate into it's
already all the companies are highly
integrated into the government so you
know they're going to be able to deploy
that and and we're going to see it in
action uh with their military very fast
um I think that the advantage of the US
is like we're we're not a topown society
we're like a wild messy Society but it
means that all of our smart people can
participate in the field and um look
there's more to AI than just the big
models as you said like you know how
important is cursor it's really
important if you're building stuff so
like oh you want to go build um you know
the next uh whatever thing that the CIA
needs or the NSA needs or this and that
like you're building that with cursor
you're using a state-of-the-art model
but like if you had eliminated if you
know if the Biden White House had gotten
their way they'd eliminate things like
cursor they'd eliminate startups being
able to do anything in Ai and so the
advantages that we have that we we don't
just have a model we've got all this
other stuff that goes with it and we've
got you know and then we have new ideas
on models um you know with new
algorithms and this and that and that's
what the US is great at and I think you
know what China is great at
is uh you know by the way they're very
good at math they have a lot people are
good at math and AI is math so they
they're gonna their models are good they
also have a data advantage on us um
where they have access to the Chinese
internet they have access to copywritten
material which uh they do not um have
the same uh difference for it that we do
in the US and so they're able to kind of
get to
you know if you use deep seek you go wow
deep seek really is a great writer
compared to a lot of the US models why
is that well they they train on a bigger
data set than we do um and that's
amazing uh so so it really you know I
think what we want is we want to have
kind of worldclass first class AI in the
US and I think of it less as you know is
it ahead of China is it slightly ahead
of China I think that
model you
you know what we've seen with our own
state-of-the-art models is leads are
very
shallow um and I think that'll continue
as long as we're able and allowed to
build Ai and then economically what
you'd like is you'd like you know to
have a vibrant AI ecosystem coming out
of the US so other countries you know
who aren't um state-of-the-art with this
stuff adopt our technology and you know
we continue to be strong economically as
opposed to everything goes to China and
that was like a big big risk with the
Biden Administration I think um and you
know which
was you know what they were doing on AI
was you know tough I would say what they
were doing on kind of fintech and crypto
was even tougher uh in that they were
just trying to get rid of the industry
in its entirety you know with AI they
were trying
to I would say they were extremely
arrogant in
their in what they thought their ability
was to predict the future um you know
Mark and I were in there you know like
our job is to predict it like this is
our job to invest in the future to
predict the future and they were saying
things that like we're
so arrogant that we would never even
think to say them even if we thought
them because we're like we know that we
don't know the future like that um you
know it's just unknowable there's too
many moving parts I mean these things
are really
complicated all right well speaking of
the future fully accepting that it is
very very opaque and very difficult to
see what would you say is the most
controversial view that you hold about
the future if we don't get to world
class in crypto we're going to be you
know AI really has the potential to
wreck Society uh and what I mean by that
is if you think about what is obviously
clearly going to happen in an AI world
is
one we're not going to be able to tell
the difference between a human and a
robot
two we're not going to know what's real
or fake um three uh the level of
security attacks on big Central data
repositories is going to get so good
that everybody's data is going to be out
there and you know there is no safe
haven for a
consumer um and then finally you know
for these agents and these these Bots
actually be useful they they actually
need to be able to use money and pay for
stuff and get paid for stuff like so uh
and if you think about all those
problems those are problems that are by
far best solved by kind of blockchain
Technology uh so one we absolutely need
a public key infrastructure such that
every citizen has their own wallet with
their own data with their own
information um and if you need to get
credit or prove you're a citizen or
whatever you can do that with the zero
knowledge proof you don't have to hand
over your social security numbers your
bank account information all this kind
of thing because um the AI will get it
uh so so so you really need your own
keys and your own data and there can't
be these gigantic you know massive
honeypots of information that people can
go after uh I think that with deep fakes
if you think about okay we're gonna have
to be able to Whit list things we're
going to have to be able to say what's
real but who keeps track of what's true
then is it the
government you know oh please Jesus
everybody trusts everybody trusts Trump
now you know everybody trusted Biden um
is it gonna be Google we trust those
guys or is it going to be the game
theoretic mathematical properties of the
of the blockchain that that can hold
that um and so I think that you know
it's essential that we regenerate our
kind of uh blockchain crypto development
in the US and we get very ious about it
and you know like if the government were
to do something I think it should be to
start to require these information
distribution networks these social
networks to to have a way to you know
verifiably prove your human you know
prove where a piece of data came from
and so forth uh and I think that you
know we have to you know have Banks uh
start accepting zero knowledge proofs
and and uh you know and that be just the
way the world works we need need a a
network architecture that is up to the
challenge of you know these super
intelligent agents that are running
around we were talking before we started
rolling that you guys have an office in
DC and part of what you do is advise on
that like what what does the
infrastructure changes what do they need
to look like um what are a small handful
of things that you guys are really
pushing to see the government adopt to
modernize the way that uh the whole
bureaucracy works yeah so there there's
a few things you know and one of the
things is because uh you know blockchain
technology involves money um we do need
right it's not like we don't need any
regulation we do need regulation um and
there are kind of very specific things
that that we're working with the
administration uh to make sure are done
in a way that uh kind of creates a great
environment for everybody what do you
guys hoping will get blocked out for
instance is that what you're about to
cover yeah I mean so like one of the um
first thing you need is you know we we
do need electronic money you know in the
form of stable coin so actual currency
um and but we need that to not like it's
very bad if one of those
collapses uh because then like the whole
trust in the system breaks down and so
forth well why why do we need this kind
of money this this kind of Internet
native money um well I give you an
example so we have ay
um called daylight energy and what they
do is um so we're running we're going to
run into a big energy problem with AI
that I think most people probably
listening to this know about where AI
consumes a massive amount of energy you
know much more than Bitcoin ever did by
the way which everybody was all up in
arms about uh and you know so much so
that like you can't really even get it
out of the power grid and I think Trump
has been smart about this saying hey you
probably need to build a a uh kind of uh
power next to your data center because
we can't be giving it to you from the
central thing but beyond that I think
that you know kind of individuals uh you
know now have Tesla kind of solar panels
and power walls and these kinds of
things um and when you have one of those
you sometimes have more energy than you
need and sometimes have less and
wouldn't it be great if you could um you
know if there was a nice system that
figured out who needed energy and who
had energy and you could just trade and
there was some kind of contract that
said okay this is what you pay during
Peak this is what you pay at different
periods um and that contract probably
best done in the form of a smart
contract but a power wall is not a human
so it doesn't have a credit card it
can't get a credit card it doesn't have
a bank account doesn't have a Social
Security number um but it can trade
crypto it can trade stable coins uh and
so we need that kind of currency to kind
of facilitate um all these kind of
automated agreements and automated
transfer of uh of of kind of wealth
between entities in order to kind of
solve these big problems that we have
like energy uh and so we need a stable
coin bill that kind of says okay look we
need uh these currencies to be backed
one for one with US dollars or or
whatever it is um so that you know we
can have a uh A system that works in a
trusted now there's this really
interesting side benefit to that which
is if you look at treasury auctions
lately um the demand for dollars is not
good uh you know and a lot of that is
you the two biggest kind of lenders to
the US have been China and Japan and um
you know China's backed off a lot and
Japan has backed off somewhat and so the
demand for dollars has gone down we've
done things to also dampen demand like
you when we uh sanctioned Russia and we
seized the assets of the Russian Central
Bank you know there were other countries
that had you know other entities that
had money there um and their money got
frozen and they couldn't access it and
so that makes people more wary of
holding everything in dollars uh so
we've done a lot to dampen that which of
course has you know fueled inflation in
the same way that increasing Supply
fuels inflation killing demand fuels INF
inflation so here we would have this new
major source of demand for dollars uh
and then the dollars would be much more
useful because you can use them online
as well uh and machines can use them and
so forth so we we really need and sorry
really fast for people that are trying
to track that the reason that that would
increase the demand for dollars is that
they would the stable coin would be
backed one for one with debt is that the
idea well yeah with uh you where you
would basically have you would have to
have a dollar WR a a um for for you hold
treasuries stable coin yeah you
basically hold treasuries so that if
somebody wanted to redeem their stable
coins they could and then that way you
know it kind of the equivalent of the
gold standard in the old days you know
when dollars were trying to get credible
you know we would need like uh dollars
to be the gold standard for the stable
coin um you know and and probably we
should never back off of that maybe we
should never backed off of gold but uh
you know it's easier dollars because we
we did kind of to run out of gold a bit
um so you know so that's you know one
thing um then secondly uh there's a bill
that went through the house known as the
market structure bill it was technically
called fit 21 um that's a very important
you know whether it's exactly that or
some form of that um
because you know when you talk about
tokens which are the this kind of
instrument um that's very very important
in blockchain world because it's the way
that this uh amazing kind of network of
computers gets paid for so you know who
who pays the people for running the the
computers well that's paid in the form
of these tokens um but these tokens um
which can be created on blockchain uh
have they they can be many things um so
you can create a token that's a
collectible you know uh you can create a
token
that uh is a digital property right you
know that links to you know some piece
of real estate or a piece of art or so
forth a token can be a you know Pokemon
card a token could be a coupon a token
could be a security that represents a
stock it could be you know a dollar uh
so which one is it is a very kind of
important set of rules that doesn't
exist and this is one of the the most
Insidious thing that the Biden
Administration did was basically say
well everything is a security
everything's a stock um or you know like
some thing with asymmetric information
which kind of basically undermines the
whole uh Power of the technology and so
it was basically a scheme for them to um
uh kind of get rid of the industry uh
but it was it was very very dark
um cynical way of uh of of legislating
things and then they would make these
you know fake claims about scams and so
forth uh but the market structure bill
is is very very important in that way
and by the way also you know another
thing that was in the original Market
structure bill which is important is
look there are also scams and there are
you know and we call it the casino but
uh you know like I can create some coin
like the hak Tua girl did right like and
uh she creates a coin
she kind of lies about uh you know her
Holdings and says she's going to hold
them but then sells them you know after
people buy it in a short time period and
so forth and there's no you know part of
the problem is there's no kind of rules
around that but in the kind of Bill that
passed the house it said like you can
create a token but if you hold it you
can't trade it for four
years that kind of takes a lot of the
ability to scam out of it and kind of
forces people to do things that are the
real utilities or if it's a collectible
you know if it is the hakua
collectible you know it's got to be a
real collectible where you don't just
you know rug the uh users of it right
away and so that you know that
that's it's okay to do it later but well
but you know like in four years it is
what it is right you yeah I'm just
giving you a hard time I just know how
that's going to sound to people yeah
yeah not thank you um but you know so
these kinds of things I think are are
going to be really important to to
making the whole industry work and so
we're working you know on that you know
trying to make it uh safe for everybody
but you as I said it's just such a
critical technology in an AI world you
know where if we don't have
it yes it's just going to be like a very
kind of problematic um you know it's
going to you it's cyberpunk it's a
it's a it's a not a you know it's a high
technology uh difficult Society we'll
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and now let's get back to the show yeah
yeah it uh it was shocking to me the
level of backlash that the blockchain
web 3 Community got um what do you think
drives that is it just the per that it
was only scams and there's nothing real
like what was that all about so there
was multiple factors so the first one is
the one that hits all new technology
where oh it's a toy um it doesn't do
anything new like the old way of doing
things is
better um and you know we saw that with
social networking we actually saw that
with the internet I mean I think Paul
Krugman famously said you know never
have more economic impact than a fax
machine and so forth so that's just kind
of a normal thing that happens with new
technologies is they start out looking
um not that important and with crypto in
particularly you know one way to think
about crypto blockchain is it's a new
kind of computer and if you think about
new kinds of computers they're always
kind of worse in every way but maybe one
than the old computer and so you know if
you look at um even like the iPhone it
was a bad phone um it had a horrible
keyboard you know if you compared it to
anything it wasn't very powerful it had
a little itty bitty screen um but it had
a feature that was pretty awesome which
you could put in your pocket um and it
had like a GPS in it and a camera in it
and so now you could build Instagram you
could build Uber which you could not
build with a PC and you still can't
build with a PC um and so that was you
know enough and then eventually like it
started to add the other features and
it's an awfully powerful computer these
days um if you look at blockchain it's
slower it's more complicated to program
like there's a lot of issues with it but
it's got a new feature uh which is trust
like it can make promises you can trust
like when that
code you know says there's only 21
million
Bitcoin you can absolutely count on that
uh in a way that like you can't trust
Google you can't trust you know Facebook
to say like oh these are our privacy
rules like you can't trust that at all
you can't trust the US government to say
they're not going to print any more
money like that's for sure and so you
know here's h a computer that can make
promises um that you can absolutely
count on and you don't have to trust a
company you don't have to trust a
country you don't have to trust a lawyer
you just have to trust the game
theoretic mathematical properties of the
blockchain um and that's amazing so now
you can you know programed property
rights and money and law and all these
kinds of things that you could never do
before um and so I think that was that's
hard for normal people to understand who
who aren't deep in the technology and so
they get confused and they say ah it's
nothing blah blah blah uh and then um
you know I think the next wave was you
had look you know it was a very odd
thing um with the Biden administration
because he wasn't really I think it's
come out now he wasn't really the
president he wasn't really making any
decisions um you couldn't even get a
meeting with him if you were in his
cabinet and in terms of domestic policy
that was run by Elizabeth Warren and
then the second confusing thing is
Elizabeth Warren is always calling like
people fascist her whole push with
fintech and crypto was to make sure that
she could kick people out of the banking
system who are political enemies and so
in order to do that you have to Outlaw
new forms of financial technology
because those would be kind of backd
doors or side doors or or Parallels to
the GBS and the banking system which she
comprehensively and I think this is
coming out now could kick people out of
and so when you use when when it's a
full top down hierarchy and you can use
private companies to enforce your will
that is that that is the way fascism
works and then the way she does it is
she sells this fake story about you know
it's funding Terror and it turns out
like the usaid was funding the terrorist
groups but that's a different story but
you know it's it's doing all these
nefarious things which you know was just
a very unfair portrayal and so then the
whole industry got this reputation as
scammy and this and that and the other
and then of course we had um Sam bankman
freed who didn't do us any favors by
yeah like you know and and this is
another kind of though issue with what
Elizabeth Warren did is she blocked all
legislation and so the criminals were
running free and the people doing things
that should have been legal were getting
terrorized by the government and when
they should have been looking they
should have been looking at FTX they
were looking at coinbase which was
totally compliant public company you
know begging for feedback tell us what
you want to Etc
exactly yeah yeah that that whole thing
was crazy so given that AI is putting us
on a collision course with uh I don't
know who's real I don't know what's fake
do you think that blockchain is about to
have its day like in the next 12 to 24
months or is this still something that
it's so embedded deep in the
infrastructure it's going to take a long
time to really have its I Told You So
moment yeah know I I think it's I think
it's within 24 months for sure I mean I
think that there's
enough you you know there were like
actual like if you look at kind of the
last wave of blockchain there were real
technological limitations that made it
you know I think we're slowing it down
from getting broader adoption so you
know very obvious usability challenges
um the fees were really high the
blockchains were slow um so there were
just a lot of use cases that you just
couldn't do on them um I think that's
changing very very fast things are you
know the the the chains are much faster
the layer 2 stuff makes them you know
very fast and cheap uh you know people
are doing a lot on usability uh you know
for wallets and and these kinds of
things so I think we're getting pretty
close and then I think the needs are
very high so if you think of something
like
um worldcoin you know to me the
difference between that thing being very
broadly adopted and where it is now
where it's I think half the people in
buos Aries use it
daily so like it's very widely adopted
where it's been legal I think that you
know if they are able to get integrated
into some of the big social platforms um
then you know I like everybody needs
proofy human uh and uh you know like
like it would make the experience online
so much better if you knew who is human
and who was not and right now like you
can't tell at all uh and so and and that
problem is going to get worse and then
the solution is really here so so I I
think it's going to start to take off
and you only need one or
two big use cases to start getting the
whole infrastructure deployed uh and you
know once the infrastructure is deployed
you know I I think we'll certainly rely
on it um and if you look at actually the
curve of people who have active wallets
and the curve of like internet adoption
they're pretty similar
um you know that it's about I think
blockchain's growing a little faster
than the internet did initially uh and
so I think you know we'll get to a place
where certainly everybody in the US will
be on it uh which by the way could be
great from a government standpoint you
know Elon has talked about putting okay
all the government payments on the
blockchain which I think would be really
really good for transparency oh my God
we never get into this weird situation
now where like half the country wants to
uh tear down all the government services
and half of them wants to keep it
because nobody knows what the hell the
spending is um but that would be great
uh but you know beyond that like if you
think about well why is there so much
waste and fraud well part of it is you
know like you know I get taxed I give my
money to the IRS the IRS gives it to
Congress they you know do whatever they
do with it and so forth and well how
does it get to the people who need it um
you know that's a very lawy process you
know and we don't even know who they are
and it's very you know one of the things
we found out during Co the government's
not very good at sending people money
it's good at taking money it's not good
at sending them money right we lost like
$400 billion dollars trying to give
people uh stimul ridiculous yeah crazy
ridiculous you know like if everybody in
the US had an address on the blockchain
you could just tell me okay here's
10,000 people who need money please send
them you know $5,000 each well probably
that's too much money for me but you
know something like that uh you know
whatever my tax bill is or whatever that
portion of wealth redistribution is that
would be 100% zero loss by the way I'd
feel a lot better about it um because i'
know I'd be helping people and you know
look maybe even somebody would go hey
this is great thank you and like maybe
we would bring us we wouldn't have this
crazy class Warfare because everybody
would know hey we're all integrated you
know like I'm helping you you're helping
me uh and then like if you had that then
you'd fix the whole kind of democracy
Integrity problem because everybody
could vote off that address and by the
way everybody would have an address
because everybody would want the money
so what bigger incentive to register to
vote than you in order to get money you
have to have an address which registers
you to vote and so that kind of thing I
think um could get us to it just a like
a much higher trust in our own
institutions yeah so wow speaking of
that I wanted to absolutely scream into
the abyss when I heard that people
couldn't retire from the government
faster than the elevator would lower
their records down into a mine I was
like what is happening what do you take
away from why does Elon want to do this
why is he sleeping in
hallways um why why is he doing this is
it just to get government contracts and
it's nefarious in the way that so many
people think it is or is there something
positive there what's the what's the
game I think there's a couple of
different things so one is the the
strong thing is he he truly believes
that um America is the best country in
the world you know he is an immigrant um
and that it's not guaranteed to stay
that way
and and we have been in danger of losing
it
uh and you know and so the most
important thing for him to do in order
for his companies to be relevant in
order for going to Mars to be relevant
in order for anything he wants to do in
life to be relevant is we've got a
stabilized US Government I think that's
the main thing driving him you know so
then you say well how did he get to that
conclusion that you know the whole
country is in Jeopardy and it really
like it's a pretty uh it was a pretty
interesting thing to watch um because
right in 2021 I think he was a Democrat
and he was certainly pretty
apolitical and uh I was actually in a
chat group with him um when he got the
idea or posed the question should he buy
Twitter um
and a lot of it stemmed from um you know
it started with the US government just
harassing him uh which was a very odd
thing right like here's your I mean I
think you could very well argue he was
our most productive citizen he um was
our entire Space Program he Advanced the
state of electric cars by 20 years he's
still like 95% of or something like that
percent of the electric cars sold in the
US Jesus um you know he's you know done
the things with neuralink to you know
help people like uh use their arms and
legs who who have been paralyzed and
this kind of thing so you know you've
got um you know really kind of
remarkable person to want to pick on but
uh what happened was uh because he got
like this PR for being very wealthy um
the Biden Administration targeted him um
you know and again they're fascists so
uh it's really a power struggle always
with the fascist and anybody who looks
like they're becoming powerful and you
know some of the things they did and you
know one of the ones that's talked about
a lot was um they sued him the by Biden
Department of Justice sued him for uh
discriminating against refugees um but
he had a contract with the US Department
of Defense that required him to only
hire US citizens so he was breaking the
law either way uh and they they never
dropped the lawsuit you even after it
was pointed out even after you know it
was pointed out by Congress uh so it was
clear harassment and I think that his
conclusion from that
was you know this
we are like ironically um I think his
conclusion was we're losing the
Democracy um you know we're going into
this very very strange world uh where
the incentives are all upside down and
you know the way Elon thinks is it's up
to him to save it um and so he got like
extremely involved and then I think the
more involved he got the
more he both realized like a lot of the
things really dangerous and then
secondly that um he personally uh would
be somebody who would know how to fix it
and you go like well why the hell would
Elon Musk know how to fix the government
all this and you know this is the thing
that everybody's saying now uh and it's
funny because I told this to um andrees
years ago uh was because I I'm a big fan
of Isaac Newton and you know like we we
always talked about like who is Elon
like you know know like what
entrepreneur comes to mind you know and
it really wasn't maybe Thomas Edison but
not really
um but Isaac
Newton uh whoa was really the one that I
always thought he was most like um you
know because it's like okay who can
build like rockets and cars and this and
that and the other but the reason I
thought he was like Isaac Newton was at
the end of Isaac Newton's life um when
he I think he was he was in his late 60s
uh maybe like 60 768 and this is you
know for those of you who don't know
Isaac Newton like he figured out how the
entire world works and wrote it down in
a book um you know called principia
Mathematica which is probably the most
amazing work in the history of science
uh and he did it like entirely by
himself like he didn't even talk to
anybody at this you know at the time he
wrote it I think he was trying to figure
out what God was or something like that
um but as you do but so he gets to be
you know like in his late 60s
and the bank of England has a crisis
which is causing a huge crisis for the
whole country um which is uh there's a
giant counterfeiting problem so the
currency is going to be undermined and
uh England's going to basically go
bankrupt and so they had no idea what to
do about it um so they call Isaac Newton
because he's the smartest man in the
world of course you're GNA call him so
Isaac Newton 67y old like uh hermit
physicist goes in
and he says okay I can help with the
problem make me CEO of the mint so they
make him CEO of the mint you know kind
of headed do
whatever uh and he reorganizes the mint
in like a week and then fixes the
technology in a month and completely
makes it impossible to counterfeit then
he becomes a private eye uh and goes
into all the pubs where the counterfeits
are arrests all of them then he learns
the law and becomes the prosecutor
and prosecutes all the counterfeits and
has 100% conviction
record and that by by the way that's
Elon
so if you this is I didn't know that
part of his story oh yeah yeah yeah so
it's it's an amazing thing um and if you
look at Elon and Doge like the to me the
most remarkable thing about
Doge is how he's done it so if you or I
were to say
okay let's go in and kind of get the
waste and fraud out of the government
what do we do we would like audit the
Departments or this and that the other
and so forth no no no no like not that's
not how he thinks he's like well the
first thing like how do the checks go
out like how is the system designed like
when does the money leave the building
and then oh it all comes out of one
system let me have access to that system
and I'll look at all the payments I'm
not asking anybody what they're spending
I'm looking at what they're spending
like I'm getting to ground truth and
then I'm going to work my way backwards
from there and he's probably and and you
know so not only is he not unqualified
he's the maybe the only person qualified
to figure out like how we're spending s
trillion doll um and so you know so I so
you know he's just a very unique
individual um
he's also a troll he also likes
upsetting people I get all that um but
what he brings to the table is pretty
interesting I would say like very yeah I
would say very extraordinary um you have
also written about another extraordinary
historical figure um from the Haitian
revolution a guy named tucon ler yeah
yes yes yeah uh tell us about him
because there's something about this
moment about being a master strategist
about um using what you have being
creative that feels like it's very
apropo to this moment um yeah what made
his story special yeah so to S was um
another one of these characters in
history like there are certain I call
them like once in every 400 year type
people um where you just don't see them
that often but so it turns out like in
the history of
Humanity um there there's been one kind
of successful slave revolt that like
endered in an independent state uh which
you know if you think
about the history of slavery which goes
back thousands of years really kind of
from the beginning of written history
like we've had slavery so um it's it's
like a pretty oldtime construct and you
know there's a lot of motivation to have
a Revolt if you're a slave uh but why
only one successful one and it turns out
it's it's really
hard um you know for to generate a an
effect of Revolt if you're slaves
because slave culture is difficult
because you don't own right if you don't
have uh any sense of you know owning
anything you don't own your own will
right like you are at the kind of
pleasure of who's ever running things um
so long-term thinking doesn't make sense
um and what it because like why plan for
next week it doesn't matter what you
plan like it's not yours uh so
everything's going to be very short-term
and short-termism
is difficult in a military context
because uh in order to have an effective
military there needs to be uh a trust
right like a trust you know you have to
be able to trust people to execute the
order like I give an order um it's kind
of like the Byzantine General's problem
uh to go back to crypto uh where like I
have to trust that you're going to do
the order you have to trust that I'm
giving the correct order um but trust is
a long-term idea because it comes from
okay I'm going to do something for you
today because I trust that down the line
You'll do something for me that doesn't
really exist in slave culture because it
there is no long term um so there is no
tomorrow uh and so like how do you go
from that to like running a successful
Revolution and then if you look at Haiti
at the time um you know you had the
French army the British army uh and the
Spanish Army all in there kind of
fighting for it so like really well
developed you know kind of the strongest
militaries of the era all in that region
all very interested in the sugar um you
know which was quite valuable at the
time so like how in the world would you
ever get out of that uh and it turned
out you know he he ended he was um
probably the great cultural Genius of
the last um you know you know maybe in
history but certainly the last you know
several hundred years uh
and he uh was able you know because he
was a person who although he was born a
slave was very very integrated into
European culture because he was so smart
and um so the the person who ran the
plantation um kind of took him to all
the Diplomatic meetings around and so
forth and he got very involved and kind
of mastered you know European culture um
so to speak and in the different
subtleties around it and he started
adopting those things and applying them
to his leadership and then you know
furthermore
Incorporated Europeans into the slave
Army so he would capture um you know he
he he would defeat the Spanish capture
some guys rather than kill them he'd
incorporate you know the best leaders
into his army and he built this very
like Advanced hybrid fighting system
where they used a lot of the gorilla
Tech you know techniques that uh he had
brought over from Africa um and then he
had uh you know combined that with you
know some of the the kind of more
regimented um kind of discipline
strategies of of the Europeans and
building all that you know he he ended
up building this massive Army and you
know defeated Napoleon and and everyone
else and it was like just quite a
remarkable story about how he just kind
of figured everything out from for his
principles and in a way yeah that was uh
you know kind of very much like uh Elon
in that sense yeah one of the things I
heard you talk about yeah yeah wildly
but one of the things I heard you talk
about that I thought was so ingenious
was he would basically use song
and sound as like encrypted language
it's really yeah so that was that was
that was like a very cool thing so right
remember that this is in the days before
telepan or the internet or any of these
things you know it's pre Alexander Gran
Bell and all that kind of thing um and
so you know they they were literally you
know the Europeans were on like you know
notes carrier
pigeons guys running you know back and
forth and so forth and so as AAS
result you know you kind of needed the
Army together in one place just so you
could communicate the order um tant uh
basically you know had these um drummers
and these songs um which he could put on
top of like uh the hill who could be
very very loud and then he would
separate his army you know into like six
or seven groups um but in the song would
be embedded uh the order of when to
attack and you know when to retreat and
all these kinds of things so he had this
like super Advanced you know wide area
communication system that nobody else
had and that you know that was a big uh
big Advantage for him yeah that to me
the reason that that comes up for me now
is we have all these new technologies
that are coming online and the person
that's going to be able to get outside
that box and see something new and fresh
is going to be able to use this in in
totally different ways and while in the
final analysis I think you and I see it
very differently in terms of ai's
ability to ultimately gobble up um what
humans can do but right now ai is this
incredible tool that as an entrepreneur
for me it has been um rediculously
exciting to one see how much farther
each of my employees can push their own
abilities by using Ai and then it does
not take much to prognosticate out you
know 12 18 months to understand where
the tools are going to be and how much
more they're going to let you do because
we're largely an entertainment company
so for us to look at that and uh just
the Revolutionary changes but you can't
be trapped inside the old way of
thinking you've got to like you said
build up from first principles yeah it's
a new creative canvas I think that's
like a really great way of thinking
about it in that um it's like well is
your creativity going to be used on
um you know kind of fr by frame editing
of like a video or will it be thinking
of like incredible new things you can do
in a video ad that you could never do
before and have the AI do that for you
you know like and so it's kind a little
bit of a Readjustment of where you put
your creative energy into and the things
that are possible and so forth and I
think that's you know we're really
seeing that across the board like in our
firm um we're applying a lot of AI and
you'd be like oh well is this going to
mean you know like you don't have human
investors anymore and it's actually been
like totally the opposite like instead
of this like
painstakingly collecting you know all
the data needed to put the investment
memo together like the AI just does that
for you and then you're just thinking
about like okay what are the like the
really compelling things about this or
rather than you know trying to track
every entrepreneur and great engineer in
our database the AI is just tracking all
those people and letting you know hey
that guy just updated his LinkedIn
profile or that guy just put out like a
interesting tweet um maybe you should
call him and that kind of thing which is
just a like a much more kind of fun part
of the game uh and and so you know look
I would say the the best predictor of
kind of how things are going to go or or
more like what's happening now than like
the most dystopian view of it that uh we
can possibly think of which I I think is
where a lot of people go to and like I
said I think some of that's the name you
know artificial intelligence just s We
Hate Everything artificial
so why do we name it
artificial that's too true Ben I've
enjoyed every minute of this where can
people keep up with you yeah well I am
be Horwitz on X and um you know uh
that's probably the best thing we're
a16z decom um and uh hope you enjoyed it
and uh that was it was great fun good
fun catching up it was indeed and then
you also have uh multiple books that
people can read that are extraordinarily
well respected in the field so also
thank you for those
absolutely okay awesome thanks so much
well thank you brother I appreciate it
all right everybody if you have not
already be sure to subscribe and until
next time my friends be legendary take
care peace if you like this convers
check out this episode to learn more I
think the AI censorship Wars are going
to be a thousand times more intense and
a thousand times more important my guest
today is someone who doesn't just keep
up with Innovation he creates it the
incredible Mark Andre trust me when
someone like Mark who spent his entire
career betting on the future says