Kind: captions
Language: en
Going back to the Stop Killing Gains
movie, it's close to a million
signatures.
Let's go. How close?
999,000.
They're 99% of the way.
The recent hype, man, they were at like
I think below 50% right before Asmin
Moist Critical Pirate Software, got into
their big beef and then that brought a
ton of awareness. The thing that I want
to talk to Ross about is I want to see
what he's talked to engineers about. So
when I first came across this, I was
first of all, I'm I'm not a big fan of
regulation. So I don't know if you know
anything about my background. I've been
an entrepreneur for two and a half
decades, built multiple successful
companies, and ran up against regulation
when I was in the food industry that was
really obnoxious because it was just
biologically incorrect. And so I
developed a uh very aggressive
frustration with regulatory bodies that
don't understand the thing that they're
trying to regulate because I'm a game
developer as well, but admittedly that's
the thing I'm probably least known for.
Uh because we haven't released our game
yet. So it's like I've been in game
development for three and a half years.
So it's like such a huge part of my
identity. But publicly uh there's like
150 people that have played the game and
so that's like all that have any sense
of that's a big part of what I do.
Admittedly, I'm not the person coding,
so there are going to be things that you
might be able to help me understand that
I have an aversion to, but it's just out
of ignorance, and you can help me see
the path forward. First read uh your
documentation, my initial response was
very similar to Pirate Software, and I
was like, hold on, there there are
agreements that I have with thirdparty
vendors that make my back-end software
work and so how would I leave this stuff
up because obviously they're not going
to go for it. And so now I'm beholden to
like only being able to use people that
also agree. It's just like one of those
things where you're like there there's
an ownorousness to this potentially that
I didn't feel there was an awareness of
in the documentation, but you were very
kind and came into our post and said,
"Hey, actually we've looked at more of
this than you think we have and like
this is going to be easier than some
people think." So, as somebody building
an MMO, help me understand from a
technical challenge perspective, um, why
this won't be the kind of thing that
becomes problematic for a small
developer.
The first thing I would emphasize right
off the bat that a lot of people miss is
this is not retroactive. So, all these
existing games that are out right now,
that's something the industry would have
a voice in the room on. So, one
compromise that might emerge through
this process is, hey, you know what?
This is going to go into effect in 2028,
well, we're just going to grandfather in
all existing companies. So, the game you
have out right now, it's going to be
exempt. That could be an option. Uh, but
after that point, then you would have to
start adapting. And
and so Ross on that is your thinking
that the the server side architecture
developers will just go look this is an
easy enough problem to solve. We've just
never had the impetus to solve it and so
we're going to make this happen. Is that
the kind of thing you're hoping comes
out of this? I think it's well the
analogy I made before is kind of like
back in the 60s auto manufacturers were
fighting against having seat belts be
mandatory in making the cars and thing
is that can be an upfront cost you know
if you've made your factory it's not
toolled for that that is a cost but then
once it's set up it becomes relatively
negligible but that was an inconvenience
and one thing to mention quick you'll be
glad to know that this is a last resort
for us we didn't start off thinking oh
yeah let's regulate the industry it's or
we just kept seeing game after game
after game get destroyed and the
industry promising more of it is
and what do you think drives that and I
assume the answer is going to be profit
motive but walk me through what you
think and I know that that this will be
largely projection but it'll help me
understand how you see it as a lover of
games
why do they kill these games
they don't have to put any forethought
into it so they don't and the people
making decisions on it aren't
necessarily the same people making the
games. So, they see it as just kind of
raw product. You know, to them it could
be toothpaste, insurance, whatever. And
it's like even if it's a minimal cost,
especially planned for upfront. Well,
that could still be a.1% cost. So, let's
just get rid of it and not even worry
about it. That save us hours. For a few
companies,
there's it's more intentional where they
have a sequel in that series and they
want to usher everyone over to the
sequel. So, we're going to shut this
down and we think our sequel is going to
make more money and
uh that's a way to do Overwatch might be
an example like that.
Yeah.
Where they just kind of had 50 million
players, shut them all down. Okay, now
you now you're on Overwatch 2 and you
can't play the old one.
How long did they overlap for? I
I'm not sure they did at all, but I mean
maybe it was a So it was like Monday we
got Overwatch 2 coming out and what a
shame Tuesday Overwatch one no longer
works.
Yeah, I'm not certain on that. And there
might have been like a beta phase for a
few months or something like that. But
now is there a company out there that is
doing this well that you guys hold up as
like yo model yourselves after these
guys. The thing is actually most video
games this isn't even an issue because
as long like when the company just ends
support as long as it's playable in some
fashion then it's already compliant
there would be no change. So you usually
have to hone in on the ones that do have
an online only requirement. There's a
handful. Uh, a recent one was the game
Knockout City where it was kind of a
dodgeball game with multiplayer and they
realized, oh, the studio is going down.
So, they patched in a capacity to have
private servers to connect to one
another and now they can wash their
hands of it, but people can continue
playing it.
On that one, because that this is where
I wish I were more technical than I am
because I would be able to solve my own
problem here. But when you look at that,
is there a way to whe and maybe this is
exactly what they did where you like
package up your server side application
architecture and you give it to the
community but in a way where they're not
able to grab what could be proprietary
IP.
Oh yeah. Well, I mean two aspects of
that. One, they wouldn't be gaining any
new intellectual property rights beyond
what was sold. It's just that they
wouldn't be able to have those taken
back from them. As said in the comment,
you know, if you buy a Grand Theft Auto
disc, you don't own the rights of the
Grand Theft Auto franchise. You can just
run that game for you or, you know, in
your living room or something and that's
it. For the security aspects, there are
ways of doing this. Um, I give some
suggestions though. We're not actually
mandating any one way for two reasons.
One is that actually could run a foul of
copyright existing copyright law. If I
say no, you have to release the server
binaries or you have to release your
source code that could interfere with
other laws. So what we're doing is we're
focusing on the end outcome where okay,
the game just has to be in a working
state and it's up to the developer or
the publisher how they that works best
for them. And we're also not asking for
necessarily 100% of all features, too.
If they can give you 95% of the game,
but then including something like
matchmaking is going to be a nightmare.
They can cut that out and it's a
reasonably playable standard. Now, the
suggestions I've been given from talking
to a dev, bit out of my comfort zone
here, uh, well, one, they won't give out
the source code. U, you won't have to
give out anti-che code because who's
worried about cheating then if you're
all running it privately? You can kind
of place yourselves after that. I I've
heard the risk wouldn't be that much
different than just trying to reverse
engineer the game while it was already
active. Also, all private keys and codes
and security features can be removed
from the game. Uh, I'm told being
preserved with feature flags. You're
actually giving me the exact kind of
things that I'm trying to think through.
So, when you're building something,
whether it's a game or it's a
manufacturing process, there are two
ways that you can go about um something
that you've done that's novel. Way
number one is you patent it and then you
obviously have to defend it. And way
number two is you keep it as a trade
secret. And so unfortunately I just
don't know enough about how you would
package up server side stuff where it
can't be viewed. It may be easier than I
think and then this is really easy. That
would be the kind of thing where I could
see games really pushing back on is hey
wait a second. We did this novel thing.
Game didn't work. we're shutting it down
or for whatever reason we want to shut
it down but we don't want to give up
this trade secret this thing that we've
done that makes our stability uh
distance from server we can still keep
ping really low whatever you know
obstacle it is that they think that
they've done something fancy on that
they want to port over to their next
game they don't want people to know how
they did it I'm just so aware that you
can have stable code that will it's the
weirdest thing I've ever seen it will
degrade over time it's like how do you
permanently give something to people
that won't begin to break.
That sounds like an exotic scenario I
think we would need more details on. I
mean, there's stuff like Bit Rot, but uh
what I'm talking about is as people
upgrade their computers, you'll see that
they just
Okay. Yeah, that's easy. Yeah. For that,
no burden at all on the developer. It
would just have to comply with whatever
you were supporting the day you shut it
down. So, if Windows 12 comes out
tomorrow and it doesn't work on it,
well, tough. That's not on you. That's
on the customer. Then they can figure
out how to get that working.
Yeah. No, this would not be endless
support whatsoever.
Ross, this is it's really been
interesting diving more deeply into you
because you are imminently reasonable.
When you hear people talk about this
whole scenario, it's imminently
emotional. What made you so passionate
about this? From my perspective, it's
almost like a Twilight Zone episode
where why do why don't other people find
this to be like a norm, you know, that
you buy things that you get to keep them
or that this is a creative work we and
it's preventable that it's being
destroyed, so we should just take the
minimum steps to keep it. I don't know.
I guess my brain's just wired
differently where I just kind of jump to
the conclusion of what's going to
happen, you know? So, if a game could
just run indefinitely, oh, great. Well,
then I have my life to enjoy it. I'll
get around to it when I want to. But if
it's on a timer, then well, wait, what's
a what if that game is wonderful? I want
to come back to it in 10 years or
something like that.
Has there been a game that you were
like, "Yo, I this one meant something to
me and now it's effectively gone
forever."
The bigger ones, I think, are well,
we'll see. The Crow was actually kind of
like that for me because I actually
think it's a so game overall, but the
map is just astounding where it's like a
miniaturized version of the continental
United States. I have I have not played
any other game that kind of gives you
that feeling of just driving across the
country the way it does. Like, you know,
it it it's just staggering. So the
thought of that being shut down, I would
have done it anyway even if I didn't
really care for that game because it was
a target of convenience because a lot of
things checked off with us being able to
send that to the consumer agencies and
get it checked, that sort of thing.
As a health check on the industry as a
whole, so as a developer, and for better
or worse, I'm old. Uh I have probably a
very different view of uh what gaming
is, where gaming is going, gaming
culture than somebody that's really
grown up in the era of always online,
building friendships, you know, while
playing games. That wasn't a thing for
me. Like I came up on the original
Nintendo. Uh didn't start playing
PlayStation till after Id graduated
college. Never got into PC gaming until
I was in my 40s. So it's like I have a
really different sense of what the um
gaming community is like if you had to
give us a health check. What are the
frustrations? Why is like you start
hearing even people like Elon Musk make
games great again? Like what what is
what's working? What's broken? What does
the community and I know you can't speak
for everybody, but if you had to kind of
as the the proving to be very reasonable
person that you are. If you had to sort
of aggregate the the biggest most shared
loves and frustrations, what does that
look like?
Yeah, I was going to say I'm not too far
behind. You have some gray in my beard.
Uh the
Yeah, this actually probably isn't where
most of the focus is. So, I'm I'm really
happy it's on that. Uh prices going up.
That's a big one, you know, with new
games coming out at $80. That's because
we It was at 60 for just the longest
time and then it was at 70 for a little
bit. Now we're at 80. I think I may have
heard 100. Uh nickel and diamond
teased.
Yeah. Nickel and diamond games where say
you buy the base game and that was 60,
but then you know there there's an extra
level or two that's an extra 20 and then
oh well here's some weapons that you
want that's another $10 and stuff like
that. that that a lot of complaints
about that sort of thing.
What's the community vibe on freeto
play?
Although all depends on the game. I
think a lot of people love it if it's
done right.
I enjoy it if it's done right.
What does done right look like? What are
some free-to-play games you're like,
"Okay, this is honorable."
Okay. I enjoy Path of Exile. That's a
fun one.
Do you make a distinction between Path
of Exile one and two?
I haven't played two yet. I'm waiting
for it to go to free to play. I'm on the
cheap scale.
I have That's good. That means you're
going to be fighting for the average
person, which is pretty clear in the way
that you
Oh, yeah. Like I I almost always do my
shopping around right now when there's a
major sale that I'll just get like 12 or
15 at a time. I'm like, "All right, now
I'm set for six months or longer, you
know." Oh god. Okay, this is
embarrassing. I forgot if it's free to
play now or not. It was given away for
free on Epic Store, but Destiny 2 I
thought was interesting.
Oh, free to play, man. That was my jam
for years.
Yeah, that game. See, I I can really
appreciate the aesthetics of a game.
That game is gorgeous. The levels in
there, you feel like you're in an alien
world. See, that that's really what
lights this fire for me because I want
to go back eventually and see that game
again or hey, maybe run a hack on it
later so I can get it working in VR like
I'm in there. So
the idea of people are creating these
worlds and you know for a minute we get
to live in them but there's always this
risk that they go away that's the thing
that really resonates with me. Uh the
thing that drew me to game design
because I always thought I would be a
filmmaker long story but that's my
background. Went to film school all of
that but the gaming industry just ended
up completely consuming the film
industry. As I got more into game
development you really realize you're
building a simulation. You have to think
about physics and you have to think
about the way things move and you
realize, wait a second, I'm building a
rules-based world and you put all that
time and energy into building this
rules-based world. And for me as a
developer, it's like, I just want that
to keep developing forever. And listen,
there are economic realities. You can
certainly hit a wall and get to the
point where you can't anymore. Being
able to continue to push something to
make it bigger, to create that world
that people can come in and inhabit, I
don't want to see it end. And it was
pretty shocking for me when I realized
how expensive servers are. So, it's like
you really can hit a point where it's
like, well, I've got the game, uh, but I
can't afford to support the servers
anymore because we don't have enough
players or whatever. And that, you know,
is ultimately the thing that would kill
a game's legacy. Even like if we will
grant some developers that that they
love the game as much as you, they don't
want to see it die either. But there are
certainly if you've gotten to that point
and hadn't planned for it, there's just
that brutal reality of this is thousands
or tens of thousands of dollars or in
some cases hundreds of thousands of
dollars per month just to run the
servers. I think it's tough for
companies to start scaling that stuff
back. So if there is a way for myself, I
mean just speaking selfishly to button
that up in the end so that you know that
it can live on even if you end up god
forbid uh hitting that wall is uh pretty
interesting
for the winding it down. I I talked to a
developer try to prepare before coming
on here. I was actually surprised how
much can be wound down that's for all
the stuff that might be on like an
Amazon web services or Google stacks a
whole lot of that isn't part of having
the part that would be needed for end of
life game I mean for end of life build
because things those are about either
running the business or you're talking
about the cost maybe having up to like
10 million simultaneous players or
something that's where the costs really
spike so you could get rid of stuff like
cross region save, anti-che, payments,
analytics, 99% uptime, crash reports,
voice chat, failover. So you can just
rip out all this stuff that you do need
those online servers for and just kind
of give them the the shell that still
runs the game and instead of you know
supporting thousands of people it might
support you know 20 or 40 or something
which might be all that's needed if it's
at end of life anyway because the the
player base is dwindled. Uh, the other
thing I was going to say was that I
wanted to emphasize in case people
didn't realize none of this would affect
your business model aside from having a
plan until end of life. So if you want
actually one of the examples that we
give in this is the game Guild Wars that
was sold in 2005. It is still going. So
it never they never stopped. And so as
long as a developer wants to keep
supporting indefinitely, they can. They
don't have to give out any code at all.
And do you know are they what's their
business model? Are they DLC? Are they
skins? How do they keep the revenue?
I'm not sure now. There was originally
like box copy where you bought it in the
store for $60. They went to freeto play
later. I imagine they did go the
microtransactions. I know more about two
because my wife loves that one. That's
another freeto play one. Uh she she goes
nuts about the Yeah. She she gives me a
few of the gray hairs because she'll
want the these skins. I'm just like,
"You have like a hundred. Why does you
have to pay for another one?" Like, and
yeah, that works. Now, let me ask, so as
you um see this moving forward, one of
the hurdles is going to be legislation
certainly in the US is going to be
tricky. Are there developers that you
think that you could get on board that
would help navigate the legislation in
terms of, hey, ripping things out is
actually hard, so that's not the way
that we want to do it. We want to do it
like this. Do you have anybody that's
been responsive or have you gotten
blanked by all of the major companies?
Well, for major companies, it's been
relatively radio silence. Uh, probably
the largest ones we Well, not that
large. they're kind of, you know, was
running with scissors who made the
postal games. They're all for this. Uh,
GG gave some limited support of it. Uh,
but they're more of a publisher rather
than developer. I I mean, I guess they
do kind of develop a lot of
infrastructure related things. Oh, yeah.
With the US, look, we're approaching
this as the US is a lost cause or I am.
The EU market's pretty large, 450
million people. So if companies if this
goes through and companies realize okay
we need to have an end of life build if
we want to sell our game in the EU once
it comes to end of life they may as well
roll it out globally because the work
will have already been done and there's
a example of this happening before where
I think I think it was in 2014 around
there Australia sued Valve for not
allowing refunds in their games and
Valve fought it and they lost. So rather
than just allow refunds for Australians,
they said, "You know what? We don't want
to deal with this with every country.
We're just going to roll it out globally
and everybody got the benefits." I think
it would be a lot like that.
Well, Ross, brother, man, thank you so
much for taking the time. This has been
great. I'm very impressed with what you
push through.
One more. Hit us.
We got to ask, what's your favorite
game?
What What started the love of gaming?
It's like asking your favorite movie or
your favorite song.
I know. I got to put your feet to the
fire.
Okay, I'll rapid fire some. How about
that? Uh, Dave Sex, Supreme Commander,
They Are Billions. Uh, Subnotica, Super
Metroid.
Nice.
Uh, I could keep going, but it's just
have to think.
It's a good list. I've not heard of They
Are Billions.
It's a strategy game where they just
send just thousands upon thousands of
zombies at you and you have to like hold
walls and I don't know. I just loved it.
It was interesting.
Nice. That's awesome. Uh man, tell
people where they can uh find the
petition, sign it if they are on board.
How can they support
uh to stop killing.com? However, it's
only open at the moment if you're an EU
citizen for the big one. There is one
going on for UK citizens or residents,
though that one's way if you're not
eligible to sign it. I I live in Europe,
but I'm not a resident, so I don't
qualify. My wife signed it, though.
That's our Well, God bless your wife,
Ross. Thank you, man. This has been
wonderful. Uh hopefully we can connect
again. This has been great, man. I
appreciate it. Appreciate everything
you're trying to do to fight for people
that love games, man. I'm here for that.
Sure. Thanks for having me.
All right, brother. You got it. Take
care. Peace.