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Language: en
I'm looking at America and I'm saying
that we're really going through
something. We are in decline. I would
use even more dramatic words than that,
but I don't want to get trapped in a
linguistic game. Okay.
>> So, I'll just ask, do you think America
is declining on any measure any
meaningful measurements?
>> I would push back very heavily against
that word.
>> Okay. I avoided collapse cuz I know you
hate that word.
>> It's not collapse.
>> So, how do you think of it?
>> First of all, it's not collapse because
if you can get bread, it's not collapse.
Like right away, that's like the first
metric. And when people start freaking
out, America's destroyed. Can you
readily get bread? Yes. Then it's not
destroyed. Like because we've seen
countries where you can't get bread then
we're not even close to that like
in fact it might be a good thing if some
people had a little less bread in this
country than than more. Uh well go
ahead. I interrupt you.
>> So is there a metric by which you would
say we are declining? You don't like the
word decline.
>> There there are several metrics by think
ascension. I am a big fan of broadly
speaking of this sort of pox Americana.
this idea that the world is largely
um aware at all times, all countries of
America's power and American values and
at least pay some sort of lip service to
it.
>> Um and I I think that is in the
ascension right now.
>> Really? The you think the world is
paying closer attention to American
values now than say 15 years ago?
>> No, then say four years ago. I I I'm
just talking about, you know,
>> is this a regional ascension, meaning it
was high, it dipped, and now to some
extent we're going back up, or you think
on an all-time high basis?
>> Hold on. Hold on. I I got you. I got
there's a lot to say here. Hold on. I I
don't I didn't say all-time high, but I
think it's very clear that people are
responding to better for worse to
Trump's uh shows of strength than they
were to Biden. I think we see this with
NATO and various European countries
where on the one hand it's pretty
obvious that most of these prime
ministers think Trump is a loon or a
bully or so on and so forth, but they
are still meeting with him and engaging
with him and treating him with a lot
more respect at least publicly than they
did in the first term. I think there's
less space to be like taking a dump on
whoever happens to be the American
president. Um I think this the fact that
um he tentatively has this was regarded
as a joke in 2015. In 2015 in the debate
stage when Trump said oh you know what
are you going to the Middle East? He
goes oh it' be like the mother of all
deals like no one would ever say
anything like it. It'd be tough and
everyone's like yeah okay. So the fact
that we even have uh a potential deal on
the table where Iran has tentatively
signed on board and Qatar and Saudi
Arabia and Hamas and Israel that it's
even in that direction is something I
think is unprecedented and something I'm
I'm sure everyone else listening this is
very hopeful about. Um the fact that um
I think Americanism as a way of life is
in the ascension. people are more
patriotic. Uh I was just in the UK and
it was controversial to put up the Union
Jack, the British flag, which is crazy.
Uh so I think in that sense, America is
in the ascension. Um so and economically
I I I don't know what's going to happen
as a result of these tariffs. I've heard
two wildly different um points of view
and I am of the wait and see uh
persuasion. Um so in all those senses I
think America is in the ascension where
we are in a decline.
Uh, and I don't know that the reason I
hate the word decline, I it's this is me
being irrational in uh 1978
when Margaret Thatcher was head of the
Conservatives and they were the minority
party, the the opposition party in the
UK. And the idea was Britain is in a
managed decline. And during the 70s, as
I wrote about my book, The White Pill,
people don't realize this. They didn't
even have electricity. So, at one point
it could be fairly sad that the sun
never set in the British Empire because
they had colonies literally all around
the world. And the 70s they had uh
electricity rationing. They had uh uh
you couldn't get power because things
were so bad with the strikes and
inflation and so on and so forth. And
the idea was we've had our day. Uh that
time has passed and now we're like the
old men of Europe. And that said, I
can't bear the idea of Britain decline.
I just can't. we who once stood alone
against Hitler. Well, he had all of
Europe and look at us now. And she was
the last I think PM who loved Great
Britain to an embarrassing degree. I I
heard these stories of uh you know there
were these international meetings and
she's shoving like crappy British candy
and people say it's oh it's so great and
they're like yeah but I want that in a
leader. I want a a president or a PM who
is so irrationally patriotic that
they're forcing you to take this crappy
candy and you're just like thanks
Margaret. Um but where I think we are in
decline is as this siloization that you
know many people have discussed in terms
of politics has uh increased and
exponentially I think the space for
discourse has um is decreasing at a very
fast rate. I think people are not
interested in talking to each other. I
don't know that's a bad thing but it's
certainly not something that uh is all
upside. So that is the one space I think
we are very much in decline. We're have
I mean right as we record there is a
brinksmanship between Governor Pritsker
of Illinois, Gavin Newsome of uh
California and the governor of Oregon
whose name escapes me. Um I forget her
name. And right now in the articles
there just this morning as I was on the
in the card here they were talking about
this concept of soft secession which is
Illinois won't cooperate with the
federal government to the point of
withholding handing over tax revenues.
So yeah and you know Trump sending in
the troops to these different states.
These are all escalations. Is somebody
going to blink? I think yes. But I don't
think the person who blinks is going to
be like, "Well, all right, they got us,
boys. It's a wrap. We're going to go
home and change, give up." So, I don't
know where this ends. And I I had Tim P
on my show this week, and he and I kind
of disagreed a bit. And I think you're a
business person. Something that people
don't understand is trade-offs, right?
And if you have a benefit, you have a
cost often, right? You get married, you
don't get to cheat. You have kids, that
takes up a lot of your time, right?
That's a pay. It's it's a cost. Doesn't
mean the benefit's not worth it. And I
think Trump, and I don't know this is
unnecessary, I think it's funny how much
Trump has made his opponents lose their
minds. I mean, we had highly educated
women walking around with [ __ ] hats and
putting on their social media without
any sense of shame. And it's just like,
do you even see yourself? They were
proud of this. But I think when you make
people crazy, uh, crazy things happen.
Yeah, I'll agree with that. So, it
doesn't matter what you look at, it
matters what you see. You and I are
looking at the same thing, but we draw
very different conclusions. So, uh the
analogy that I always use is when you
look up in the night sky, all you
actually see are stars, but then we draw
constellations on them. Those
constellations are fake, but they
actually do help you steer at sea in the
middle of the night.
>> Uh so, they have utility even if they're
off. When I build the constellations in
the sky of all the different things that
are happening, I see something when put
into historical context are all the cues
that we are on a road that has a branch
ahead of us. One of those branches is
civil war revolution.
>> Yes. And because we're on that road, I
am screaming from the rooftops
trying to get people to understand,
okay, up ahead of us there's a fork and
if we don't take the correct fork, we
are going to end in revolution or civil
war. For me, I'll oversimplify it often
to the economy. It is an
oversimplification but it really is um
you can talk about diabetes as um we
need to manage the neuropathy in your
eyes and your feet or we can say it's
this is what you're eating. What you're
eating is the problem here and exercise.
So I'm saying let's talk about the
eating and exercise versus managing the
symptoms. And because we're not doing
that and because I I literally see
exactly zero indications that we will do
that. I can see the fork in the road
coming up. We're admittedly not too far
gone. We could still change course, but
I don't see any indication that we will.
And if we don't fix the economy, we will
end in revolution. So for me, I'm like
when somebody says America is
collapsing, I'm like yes, very clearly.
I don't know how a civil war or
revolution in a literal sense would
happen because when you had the American
Civil War, you had half of the country
all or heavily militarily trained and
armed ready to take up arms, right? When
you had the Revolutionary War against
Great Britain, all the soldiers were
here. We had all the land. They had to
send in, I don't know how long it took,
a month you send in their troops. So,
it's it's it's there's a capacity to
take up a stand. And we b, you know,
Washington kept retreating. He kept
getting her ass hand to us cuz the
American patriots didn't even have
shoes. They were wrapping their feet in
newspaper. Let's walk this through.
Let's suppose right now I don't know
that Pritsker and Newsome or these blue
states have the capacity. You could have
massive civil unrest, but if that's the
case, I don't think they have much of a
chance against the federal government.
Conversely, if you had uh President Y
Pritsker and you had these red states
revoling, I don't know that he would
necessarily have the military behind him
to do anything about it. Um what so it's
to me it's much more likely that you
would have this sort of you know, God
help us like Napoleon coming in and just
putting a stop and like the buck stops
here, here's going to it's going to
land. But in terms of a protracted
revolution or civil war, I don't think
there's a parody between two sides that
would allow this to be sustained in any
kind of duration.
>> Yeah. So, we agree with that. And the
last thing I want to get bogged down in
is like word choice. But I the way that
I see this is either French Revolution.
So, you have pockets of violence. It's
not some sustained thing. It's just hey,
we take a few thousand people, we round
them up, we either goolog them or
execute them in the streets. uh a new
government takes power based on a strong
man who understands once people get a
taste for blood, you have to aim it at
something. You you're not going to stop
it.
>> Uh so to your point, this is how
Napoleon comes to power, he realizes,
oh, I'll just aim these at every other
country. We'll go conquer Europe. 3
million people die across Europe. Um but
hey, you you end up getting a total
transformation, not for the better, but
a total transformation of French
society. Right?
>> Or, and I think this is the most likely
version, we become Argentina. And so
Argentina in the 1920s, 19
attracts more immigrants than America
literally at the same time. They were
the real land of opportunity. And then
they end up getting to the point where
they do all the classic things of
inflating their currency, um, trying to
keep the prosperity train running. But
if you're not doing innovative things
and you're just trying to flood the
government with money, it just never
ends up working. And so then it starts
declining. But people are getting used
to all the government money and so you
can't talk people out of it. You end up
marching towards socialism or at least
socialist policies where the
government's taking care of way too many
people and the economy collapses. You
lose all of the government defaults
always and so then you can't get
investments in the country and you end
up with this hundred-year period. It's
like played out so many times over and
over and over in history. So that to me
with the rise of someone like mom Donnie
is exactly the direction that we're
heading. We have made it impossible for
young people to get ahead economically.
The second you do that, you guarantee
the rise of populism because people are
afraid. Fear sucks. So it translates
into anger. Anger feels a lot better.
Populism rises cuz you get figures that
go, "Don't worry, I'm going to go slap
around the other team. I'm going to get
you all the cool stuff that you want."
But because there is no such thing as
giving people things for free without a
huge cost, you end up collapsing the
economy. The government is forced to
default on its debt and then all of the
investments go away. So is it going to
be 1860s and that classic style civil
war? No. But it we already have pockets
of violence. We already have political
assassinations. I think that will
ratchet up. someone will come into the
government and say we have to clamp down
on this just to like bring back
stability and then the executive powers
begin to expand and you're in a very
weakened state.
>> Um
as as someone who's a lot more
comfortable with political violence than
the layman. Um
well
>> because it's useful.
>> Well, I I don't really know how much of
this conversation I'm allowed to have.
>> I mean with me as much as you want.
Well, with the internet because I
>> Yeah, that becomes how much pain do you
want to go through?
>> Right. So, um
I I I see what you're saying, but I
don't think we are Argentina because
Americans have a very different view of
America than the Argentine state of
Argentina. And if you had I I couple of
points. First of all, um Pelosi and
Biden and Hillary did a lot more to stop
like AOC and Bernie Sanders than the
Republicans did. So I still think that p
that wing that corporate hack wing of
the Democratic party is still quite
powerful even though on social media the
energy is in the kind of uh DSA kind of
wing of the Democratic party. And for
decades, Republicans have complained,
not unfairly, that rhinos, you know,
they they run as the base and then when
they're elected, they get to Washington,
the rhinos, Republicans name only, and
the rep the base doesn't get anything
they want. This is the first time, I
think, in quite some time that the
Republican base is actually getting
results from the presidency. Even during
Trump's first term, he delivered in
terms of doing things that are funny.
Like when Pelosi and the congressional
delegation were trying to go overseas
and they're on the bus going the airport
and he canceled their flights and they
had to circle the bus as they wanted
what to do if because they didn't have
the permissions from the president. That
was funny, but like what did that really
accomplish? Now he's he's he's hitting
them where it hurts and it putting
points on the on the board. Um so I
think that is something that is a little
bit unprecedented. So the question is,
is the Mumani wing going to take over
the Democratic party? If they do, it's
kind of like, well, what what happen?
It's like kind of that dog chasing the
car. When it catch the car, what's it
going to do with it? Because a lot of
the Democratic Party is funded by
corporate America, right? And when you
have a socialist kind of party, they're
not going to be necessarily
uh um yes, sir. And just continue
supporting that money. they're going to
start funding some kind of you New
England Rockefeller Republican types.
They're going to go somewhere. So that's
one thing. Two is I think that only
works though if you actually start
fixing the economy. Young people really
are in a dire situation. If they can't
get on the property ladder, literally
all hope is lost.
>> It's not all hope is not lost.
>> No, it really is. So I I'll give a super
speedrun of this. So um the way because
the government deficit spends you're you
have to print money and as you're
printing money you're causing inflation
>> right?
>> If you don't own assets then you take
the full brunt of that. So in the last 5
years inflation's been roughly 25%.
>> And it hurts the poorest the most. Yes.
>> Right. And real wages haven't gone up in
like three decades or more. And so
people's wages have stagnated, prices
are going up. They can't get on the
property ladder. Now why does property
matter so much? It is the only asset
that people understand intuitively and
it's the only asset you can live inside
of. So, and to really icing on the cake,
it's the only asset that for certainly
for a heterosexual couple that you're
going to get massive pressure from your
wife to get you a house. Absolutely. So,
there's a reason that the house has
become the focal point of like the
American dream and all of that and it's
just completely out of reach. So, if you
continue deficit spending and don't
allow young people to get into a house,
you will make them increasingly
desperate over time and they'll vote for
anything that's changed. And right now,
the promise that sounds the most awesome
is I'm going to get you a bunch of free
stuff, which is socialism. We'll get
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And now, let's get back to the show.
>> Uh, I think first of all, one of the
reasons housing was such a big thing in
America was this postw World War II uh,
fetishization of suburbia and this idea
of like, oh, if you just move out of the
city, which was kind of a new thing, the
invention of the suburb, you get to have
be a homeowner and that's kind of the
American dream. So, number one. Number
two is I don't know that housing is
necessarily going to be as first of all,
by all accounts, everyone's saying the
housing market's on a bubble that that's
that's about to burst and housing is
going to come a lot more cheaper. I know
here in Austin specifically, uh the
house I was looking at went from um in I
moved here in 2021, it's 2025. When I
looked at it, it was 1.1 million and now
it's like 875. So that's in a couple
years. So, housing prices are going down
in certain areas. I think people are uh
maybe New York and LA, I think they're
still going up. I don't understand the
economics there at all. Maybe it's
foreign investment and they're just
sitting on those uh apartments and not
actually living them is one of the
things I heard, but I'm not an authority
on that whatsoever. Point being, I don't
know this idea that the demand of
housing being static or close to static
is true because what you might see very
easily is, you know, booms in in Dayton
or like cities that you and I aren't on
our periphery, but they can become new
hubs, especially with the rise of social
media and the internet. You don't need
to live in New York City anymore. So,
there's no reason why you can't have a
hundred cities that are prospering as
like Austin being one example. It kind
of came out of not nowhere but a
mid-tier city and then it became a
cultural hot spot. So that's something I
would push back again against as well.
But I agree with you completely broadly
speaking even without the housing. If
the currency loses its ability to store
value, if I don't have any savings, it's
kind of a wrap because then you're
Zimbabwe. And it's like I need to be
spending I all the incentives is for me
to spend my money today and get these
goods because if I leave in the bank I'm
losing a quarter of the value every
year. I shouldn't be saving. And when
you have a society that's incentivized
against saving. That's society that's
inized against investment. That's a
society that's kind of eating the the
seed that you're going to plant next
year. That's that's a deadly spiral. But
I don't um and there's no
>> this is what's amazing. There's like no
appetite in Washington to cut spending
like one iota. I remember a few months
ago Trump had the big beautiful bill and
many conservatives online correctly and
a few in Congress were like, "This is
insane. What are we doing?" And then
it's like, "Oh, look over here." They're
like, "Oh, wait, what?" And they they
all completely forgot about it. um this
continuing resolution right now that
they're debating the government
shutdown. It's it's I mean if President
Trump right now said I want to go back
to my first budget, you know, 2017 when
he became president for the first time,
it would be like you're a crazy person,
you're radical, blah blah blah. So that
is something that concerns me
enormously. But as you and I both know,
there is a great deal of ruin in a
nation. Uh the US dollar still is
disproportionately powerful worldwide
and many of these other countries have
GDPs, excuse me, um national debts that
are far higher proportionally than ours
and they're not doing great, but they're
not at collapse. Now, I'm not saying
it's good. I'm not saying it's not a
problem, but I'm saying they're not in
civil war either. Uh Japan being like
one prime example of this.
>> Yeah. So, Japan is always uh you hear
about Japan, you hear about the Nordic
countries when I bring these arguments
out. Uh so,
>> um I'll give a quick sort of uh
renunciation of Japan and why that does
not help us.
>> Denunciation, I'll take it down as an
argument. Uh whatever the right word is.
Uh so, Japan is like hyper um hegemonic.
It's just Japanese as far as the eye can
see.
>> They have a very specific culture. I
mean, you come here, it's that's not
true.
>> I thought that was like a racist eye
joke.
>> Is very funny. Nice. No, but I like it.
I'll take it. Uh, so having that kind of
cultural um uniformity is
>> when the culture is collectivist and
very polite and well, I want to make
sure that you have something as well.
Uh, you can get away with that more. So,
the reason Japan comes up a lot is any
country that's ever crossed the 130%
debt to GDP ratio for more than like 18
months has gone into um open violence.
And so,
>> what are we at now?
>> Uh we're at 122. So, the reason
>> when are we, sorry, I have to interrupt
because this is really key. When do we
hit 130?
>> Uh it's like 10 years.
>> Okay. So, so if we are on this track
according to all these kind of charts,
open violence.
>> Yes.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. Yeah. So,
>> I agree. Yeah. Okay.
>> Japan is the only country that bucks
that trend
>> and I think they do that like if you
paid attention to the World Cup, they
cleaned the stadium after people left.
It's just a different
>> I'm going to interrupt you because we're
on the same page. I didn't realize you
meant in 10 years. I thought you're
meaning like in the next two or three
years.
>> No, no, no. In 10 years, yes, I can
easily see us going to open violence
easily.
>> So, and I don't see it as a binary. I
see it as like it will just continue to
escalate. So, I think we're already in a
very sort of controlled
pockets of violence right now. Um, I
think it will get worse. I don't think
it's topple the government. It's going
to take 10 or more years to get to that
stage. But my thing is if you don't
start putting in the fix now, then it
becomes unavoidable because you're
adding a hundred uh trillion dollars to
the national debt every 100 days. So
it's like this becomes a bigger and
bigger problem every day and you don't
want to be in like year nine going okay
now we really need to do something about
it. Um so anyway I don't think it's a
nothing burger. I also don't think
panicking is the right answer. So panic
is not going to get us anywhere.
>> Uh but taking evasive action is going to
be important. Um, I don't know that I'm
so
um
opposed to seeing my enemies crushed and
kind of um just destroyed. But the
question,
>> who are your enemies in this?
>> Uh,
I think
>> the American government,
>> not the American government. I think
there are schools of thought that are so
malevolent and nefarious that unless
they are completely kind of annihilated,
they're going to kind of exist in
perpetuity. That said, everyone thinks
they're going to be the guy driving the
tank and not the guy under the treads,
right? So, this is why I'm very careful
to be like, "Oh, this is going to be
fine." You know, whenever people light a
match, they're like, "What? My house on
fire. I just wanted to have a little,
you know, that's not how it works." uh
to uh and I am very um I I'm very um
doubtful that the people in those tanks
would be people I would consider friends
or people who I would approve of.
Certainly, I've said repeatedly that the
enemy class is not going down without a
fight. Uh my buddy Jesse had this great
point. He's like, "It's not like they're
going to say, "Well, good job. You won
that argument. I guess I'm going to go
home." That's not a thing. And I think
people have this there was this ' 80s
conception that you are sure familiar
with which was very much a part of this
American ethos how Reagan and Tip O'Neal
uh who speaker of the house Democratic
speaker of the house you know would
argue viferously during the day and then
go home and play golf together and isn't
that great and I think now there's this
idea that like um why am I playing golf
with people who want to kill my kids
right um and I think both the hardcore
Republicans hardcore Democrats would
say, "Yeah, my the other people want to
kill my kids." And I don't even know
that they're necessarily is either or
both or neither are wrong. So I don't
see any kind of kind of repress between
two
violently, literally violently opposed
worldviews. I don't What do you see as
the incentive
for anyone to blink? The incentive to
blink is always going to be if I blink
then my life tomorrow is better and my
kids lives are better. That's why I'm
saying this has to come back to the
economy. Like people all of a sudden
will change your tune instantly when
money's involved. If people believe like
oh wait this isn't profitable anymore.
I'm going to stop doing this. I'm going
to start doing this new thing. This was
part of the um JK Rowling when she went
after Emma Watson. She was like I think
a big part of this is Emma realizes it's
not as I think she even used the word
profitable. It's not as profitable to
dunk on me as it once was. And so,
>> meaning Rowling.
>> Yeah. So, Emma Watson was basically
anti-JK and now all of a sudden is
changing her tune and saying, "No, I
still love her." And JK was like, "What
is happening right now?" So, she was
like, "This is the same woman that once
mouthed to a crowd. I love all those
people except the one, meaning JK
Rowling." And she's like,
>> when you say profit, you don't mean just
financially. You mean like status and
other stuff. Uh Emma's talking about
status. JJ, sorry, is talking about
status.
>> But if people really believe that they
can get ahead, whatever that means,
either status, power, money, uh then
they'll change their tune. Fixing the
economy to me is that like you have to
get people to believe and understand
there is a way out of this. There is a
way for you to participate in the
economy. There is a way for your kids'
lives to be even better than yours.
There's a way for your life to be better
in 10 years than it is today. and it's
not the path you're on. Now, are you
going to get the average person there?
No. The average person is caught up in
emotions. They ration emotionally or
reason emotionally. And so, it that's a
lost cause. You just have to get the
tide to shift from grievance to
opportunity. Now, that's going to be
extremely hard. But to answer the
question directly, that's what will get
someone
>> I don't think it's gonna be extremely
hard at all because um I and I'm glad
you clarified what what you what you
were thinking because I I agree with
almost everything you just said. I don't
think it's going to be hard at all. And
I know I know I can hear right now the
mouse traps going off in people's heads
in the audience. There's this people
have this shreddinger's cat view of uh
first of all I hate the term the left
because even if Hillary Clinton and
Bernie Sanders would vote the same on
every single bill in front of Congress
if either of them were president God
help us they would not have the same
priorities.
>> They would not have the same things on
the agenda first, second and third. They
would not cut deals with the same people
maybe in the Republicans or other
countries in the same way. Right? So
when you say people understand that Mitt
Romney and Jeb Bush are not the same as
you know Donald Trump or Marjorie Taylor
Green but when they look at their
opponents oh they're all basically the
same and the Schroinger Scott they have
this view of that Democrats are the or
the left u let's just speak for
Democratic politicians are ideological
zealots who are you know some version of
Marxism and are obsessed with kind of
this Marxist uh hegemony at the same
time they're like these are soulless
immoral, power- hungry creatures who
will do anything to maintain their hold
in power. It's not both, right? So, do
they have this? Now, maybe this is their
vision that they have in the back, but
the point is there's time and time again
when a great example of this is the UK,
the Labor Party. The party's called
Labor, right? It's not that. It's not
the Democrats, it's Labor. And as soon
as people in unions started voting for
the Tories, like with Boris Johnson's
campaign, uh they're all white
supremacists. So labor turned on the
labor unions, right? So in America,
people are like, "Oh, they're never
going to turn on this group, that group,
that group." It was Bill Clinton who
pushed forth DACA, the defense uh um
the Defense of Marriage Act, and and
fought against gay marriage. In fact, in
2004, when John Ky was running against
George W. Bush, he called Bill Clinton
and asked for advice, and Bill Clinton
said, "Campa against gay marriage." And
John Ky said, "I'm not going to do
that." And he lost in a very close
election. And if he listened to Bill
Clinton, he probably would have won cuz
it was just very few votes in a few
states that carried their election. So
if people think that Democrats won't
start pivoting, it's already happened.
Uh if Pete Buddhajed just talking about
not having trans athletes, Gavin
Newsome's openly talked about not having
trans athletes. This was a thing five
minutes, like five minutes ago, we all
had this consensus. The Democrats, you
know, bought into what the base was
saying, but they don't. In the same way
that BLM was a huge thing in the spring
and summer of uh uh what it 2020 and
then as soon as Biden and Officer Harris
got into the White House, BLM was
complaining publicly. They're not
returning our calls.
>> They didn't even send some kind of like
random low-level staffer to have a big
kind of photo op at the White House be
like, "Oh, BLM's here. Let's discuss."
They didn't care. They didn't pretend to
care. So, I think it would be very easy,
and I know people are digging their
heels hearing this, for the Democrats to
pivot and be like, in 1992, it's the
economy, stupid. There are enough old
school Democrats, and more importantly,
Democrats who only care about seizing
power who could be like, it's the
economy, it's the economy, economy. They
can campaign very easily on this kind of
fiscal conservatism just like
Republicans do because Republicans don't
ever have to deliver it. And if you have
a binary system and it's like Trump's
crazy and he's focusing on illegal
immigrants while you can't put food on
the table, you know, I'm I kind of
worked my way up and my dad was a postal
worker, blah blah blah blah blah. That
will resonate with Karen and Karen is
the swing voter.
>> Yes. Uh I definitely think politicians
say whatever they need to say in order
to get elected. So I from that
perspective, I don't think any of the
parties are carved in stone. Um, having
said that, when I look at what the
energy is in the party, the energy very
much seems to be moving in the Mdani
way, which and I'm very empathetic to it
because if we have broken the economic
system for young people like it is just
absolutely smashed to pieces
>> and
given that they are going to need a
clear message.
>> What's unemployment with young people?
You keep saying smashed to pieces. Like
I have no idea how bad it actually is.
>> Okay, so unemployment is bad. It's uh I
think in ages like what do they call
prime working age? So 21 to 42 or
something like that. Uh it's I want to
say 12%.
>> That's bad.
>> Horrific.
>> That's bad.
>> Uh and and I saw rents in New York are
like three grand for a studio.
>> It's wild. It's wild. But the I I don't
even need people to get that far cuz now
we're starting to get into like the the
nitty-gritty of it all. uh two facts
just to get people to understand 10% of
Americans own 93% of the assets and the
only way to avoid the deficit spending
the punishment that we will all receive
of that is to own assets. So 10% are
protected and the take the 10% it's like
going to be most of them own a minuscule
amount and then the top 2% or whatever
own the 93% of the 93%. So, uh, most
people will never do the very thing they
need to do to protect themselves from
the government, which is to master or as
close as you can owning assets. And it's
a complicated game and it's a game that
carries a lot of risk. And so, I know
people are never going to do it. So,
you've got to get
>> it has to be. Who's not incentivized?
>> People to to save and and and kind of
get assets.
>> Well, no, you're not you're not
incentivized to save. You're punished
for saving, but you are a thousand%
incentivized to own assets. If you
don't, you're going to get punished into
a
>> I meant the media. I meant the the
culture. There's not this idea of like
be responsible.
>> Well, so agreed a thousand%. And this is
a big part of like the rallying cry that
I'm trying to do is get people to make
that. But like the one that always
baffles my mind is I'm like, hold on a
second. So, uh, people will be up in
arms about redlinining and saying this
is a great evil that we did to
African-Americans and it echoes through
the generations that they're not able to
pass on the wealth that you can put into
a house. And I'm like, uh, but I don't
see that same energy around the fact
that we are deficit spending and make it
impossible for people to buy a house.
So, it's like, you're literally
obliterating multiple generations of
people. I'm like th this ends so
horrifically and it compounds. That's
the part like it just compounds and
compounds and compounds because they
can't get into that asset. They are more
devastated by inflation and it just gets
worse and worse worse. Anyway, so that's
where I'm like we have battered the life
out of young people economically. Um
they're they're not able to start
generating that money. So when somebody
comes along and promises not like, "Hey,
we're going to be fiscally
conservative." Instead, they say, "All
of these guys are corrupt. You know it.
You feel it. Uh, they are the reason."
They probably don't even have to define
there. They are the reason that you're
not able to afford rent. We're going to
cap rents. We're going to get you free
bus rides. We're going to have state-run
grocery stores. And people are like,
"Yeah, that sounds a lot better than
what I have." But they're so
economically illiterate. They don't
realize that that experiment has been
run over and over and over. And there is
like a reason that is super easy to
explain as to why that doesn't work,
can't work, won't work, hasn't worked.
Uh but it sounds awesome and so they go
for it.
>> Sure. But I don't think that Mani's
appeal in that primary was largely kind
of economic. I think it was more this
kind of he's saying things that no one
else is. He's not a corporate party hack
like Cuomo was. It's very hard to get
enthusiasm among the base for a Cuomo
figure. It's like if Jeb Bush like ran,
you know, for for mayor of some of
Florida cities, even though he was
regarded, people are shocked to hear
this, widely regarded as a very
successful governor. He won his
re-election by this huge margin against
his opponent, I forget what year it was,
after crushing the guy in the debate.
Um, it was close before that. So I think
there's yeah I think something else that
you know you and I haven't touched on is
social media encourages and just our
culture in general encourages novelty.
>> So if something has been around for like
20 30 years it's inherently bad, right?
I want that shiny new thing. I want that
new app. I want that new whatever. So
this this was something weighed very
heavily in favor of Trump in 2016. Um it
and it worked against Hillary Clinton.
Um so I think that is part of his
appeal. Um also the you know him Curtis
Lee was his Republican opponent ran in
four years ago is regarded as kind of
like a clown figure in New York. Cuomo
you know was is a is a mass murderer. So
it's kind of are you going to vote for
the guy who did the mass murders in the
past or the one who's going to do them
in the future? Uh it's kind of a
Hopson's choice if I'm using that term
correctly. Um, but yeah, that AOC wing
is in the ascension. But I I think
you're also there's just this kind of uh
uh vacasillation and the Republicans did
this too where it's like there's this
myth in politics that moderates are
better at winning elections than the
people on the uh uh on the on the edge.
And one great example of this, you hear
this all the time, is Christy Whitman.
She ran for governor in New Jersey. She
won Republican, ran in 93, won again 97,
and she's like, "Look, I'm the
moderate." If you look at her elections,
she won by like one point over the
Democrat. Whereas Chris Christie, who at
the time was widely regarded as clearly
a hardcore conservative, won by far
bigger margins than her. The reason is
voted
by the populace. It's won by who gets
the who turns out. And you might have
someone who is really really hated by
the opponents, but he riles up people on
your side. And if you get people
excited, that might tip the scale. So
it's an enthusiasm gap, not just a
numbers gap. So the moderates like,
yeah, I might prefer Mitt Romney over
Obama. I'm not getting off my ass to
vote for him. Whereas if it's Trump,
it's people like, hell yeah, I want to
do this cuz this means something to me
as a signifier. So they'll do one and
then when that doesn't work, they run,
oh, should have been the moderate. Then
they run the moderate and it just goes
back and forth. You see this with both
parties all the time. So I don't at the
same time you know on the third hand as
an octopus um although they have arms
and hands if you look at Europe and
where the left is going it is going in
this kind of I would say mauist um
hardcore authoritarian direction you see
this in Canada you see this in the UK um
I mean talk about political violence if
the cops are arresting you for I don't
know if you saw this or maybe people
watching this maybe you have people
watching this
There was a woman or a guy, I forget who
it was, knock on the door in the middle
of the night from the cops in the UK.
I'm not here to arrest you. I'm here to
warn you about a Facebook post you had.
Now, I agree that people shouldn't be
wasting their time on Facebook cuz
that's for boomers. But it doesn't
shouldn't involve the cops.
>> Dude, they arrest 30 people a day in the
UK for things that people
>> and this is after 14 years of
conservative rule and what four four
different PMs.
>> Yeah, it's wild. I I am I am a gasast.
It is the most Orwellian thing I've ever
seen from the land of Orwell. Like
>> it's not the most Orwellian.
>> Oh, give me give me more.
>> I mean, come on. It gets more Orwellian
than that
>> in the in the West.
>> Yes.
>> Okay. Examples.
>> Um
Woodro Wilson. I know this preceded
Orwell obviously, but what he did during
World War I and you had kind of mass
censorship of the males and and the and
>> Yeah, but that's wartime. Horrible.
Horrible.
>> Sure. But at least you've got
>> But the war wasn't here.
>> Die yet. Fair.
>> The world, it didn't need to happen
here. It was just there because they'd
had their excuse. Never let a good
crisis go to waste. And it wasn't even a
crisis. This was their opportunity like
to flex their muscle. Like now we have a
pretext to kind of have mass censorship
and totalitarianism. And they got away
with it. This is what I'm concerned
about. Um, as a student of history,
everything that happened during World
War I, we have a in American shores.
Look, we're doing it. The Great War,
blah blah blah. when FDR comes in in
1933 and he could say with a straight
face all these measures that we took
during wartime just tw 13 years ago um
we have a great depression which is
really a bigger threat to America like
the Kaiser or what is happening where
you have 25% unemployment and of course
the answer is the great depression is
far greater threat to the average
American America as a whole than the
Germans during World War I ever were so
then they could just have that same
totalitarianism again point being co co
was the biggest scop in American
history. Uh a lot of very very nefarious
people by accident or design got some
very useful information about what the
limits are of American submission. Uh
what it would take for Americans to kind
of reach that violent point and whether
that violence would be regarded as
legitimate and I think now they are
going to be cashing that in. It's one of
those things you said that so calmly
that uh I think it a lot of people are
going to miss how terrifying that
statement is. But yeah,
>> sure. Yeah.
>> All right. You've said that the time for
talk is over. What do you mean by that?
>> When people are totalitarians, they use
language not to communicate to but to
manipulate. It is not done in good
faith. It's just what do I need to say
to get you to do what I want. A great
example of this was when it was
discovered that Mumani uh when he
applied to Colombia marked his race off
as black, not as African-American, it
said black. And several Democrats,
including former New York City Mayor
Bill Delasio, says he was born Uganda.
Of course, he's African-American. It's
like, you know, you're lying. I know
you're lying. It didn't even say
African-American. That's not what that
means. We all know this, but the time
for talk is over. There's not a
conversation to be had there. And I
think things like uh uh the trans debate
uh we talked about trade-offs earlier.
We can make the argument very let's make
very we can steal a man this argument
very easily. I have gend dysphoria. I
need to take crossgender hormones to
look and feel like I'm supposed to be.
You're telling me there's no cost to
take even the same gender hormones.
You're telling me if a woman takes
estrogen or a man takes testosterone,
it's all upside. So you laugh, but it's
people understand that that's
ridiculous. Women know perfectly well
during their cycle or when they're
pregnant when their estrogen's spiking.
It has consequences. It's part of being
human. But in this debate, nope, you
take the testosterone or the estrogen
respectively, it's all upside. It's
insane. And any question like, okay,
maybe
I can make this argument. The benefits
outweigh the costs, but the pretense is
there's no cost. So that's another
example of how it's it's just not done
in good faith and there's no really
space for talking.
>> Yeah. Okay. So if we're not able to have
good faith conversations, what what is
the alternative? Because you're very
optimistic. I It is I consider myself
optimistic.
>> I hate that word.
>> That's always optimistic.
>> Interesting. It's always like a passive
aggressive judgment word.
>> It's my filler word. I know, but it's
such a waspy thing.
>> I don't know why that would be waspy
>> because wasps don't say, "Oh, you you
suck." They go, "Oh, that's
interesting."
>> Oh, no. No. I don't think you suck. When
I say When I say that's interesting, I
basically mean that has made me feel
something that I don't yet know how to
categorize. So, I'm going to say
interesting to give myself time to find
its box, which may be tomorrow. Uh,
>> but I'm just saying in in I understand,
but this word has a it especially like
publishing has a certain connotation.
>> I don't mean it that way. I know you
don't. So, without using it in a way
that uh bothers you,
>> it doesn't bother me. I'm just
clarifying what you're what you're I
think you're putting out something
you're not trying to. I'm just being a
stickler.
>> Fair. So, now give me hope versus
optimism. Why draw a distinction?
>> Um I'm hopeful this conversation will go
well, but I'm not optimistic it will.
So,
>> that's clear. There you go. That's
clear. Okay. So,
uh
>> I've had that line. I've had that line
queued up for weeks and thank you for
giving me the chance to
>> very glad that you got a chance.
Interesting. Uh, okay. So, America, you
are hopeful but not necessarily
optimistic. That makes sense. So, if we
are, we're no longer talking. What do
you see as the alternative? Most people
will use the quip that once you can't
persuade or once you're not allowed to
speak, then violence is the only other
option. But I don't imagine that's your
punchline. Um you well you have that
free speech or free violence those are
the two choices right um there are I
don't think violence is necessarily the
alternative but if you disempower you
know uh uh populations or groups or
whatever then you have victory in that
regard I am gladdened and one of the
reasons I am hopeful is that Trump is
going head-on with the universities who
are really the the great villains of our
Um, and I think the fact that to your
point, and this something I know you are
extremely passionate about, there is so
much more space for young people to make
something of themselves without going to
university or having that credentialist
approach. Um, that I think is what would
save America because once you take care
of them, whether it's figuratively or,
you know, lamposty, um, I I think a lot
of the other issues would be resolved.
We'll be right back with the show in
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And now, let's get back to the show. I'm
going to say that in my own words. I'm
not attempting to put these words in
your mouth, but I do want to see if this
feels right to you. So, conversation
isn't going to be the way forward.
Changing the indoctrination machine will
be cuz I think we need to indoctrinate
young people. I just think the things
we're choosing to indoctrinate them with
are horrible.
>> Okay. Does that
>> I don't know about we but they are
indoctrinating them with things that are
horrible. I'm not indoctrinating them
with horrible things.
>> Okay.
>> Yeah. I think that's fair what you just
said. Yeah.
>> Okay.
>> What?
>> But it's not just that indoctrination is
a problem. It's that it's both. It's not
the message is bad. It's that they are
important and powerful. So if someone
who's important and powerful puts out a
bad message, you have to pay attention
to it to some extent. Walk me through
why they're the villain of our time and
how because I think it will be
counterintuitive for most people to
think of universities as powerful.
>> Really?
>> Yeah.
>> Wait, it's counterintuitive.
>> Uh, yes. Until I heard you talk about
it, I was like, "Oh, yeah, that really
is true." But it didn't hit me
immediately as like, "Oh, yeah, that is
true."
>> Wait, wait, wait.
So, the point of our universities is and
has been to create the next generation
of elites, right? And if you read um
James Bernham's superb book, The
Machavelians, where he looks at Paro and
angles and and uh um Robert Michelle and
and not angles, sorry, it's Parto Moscow
um um Sorell and Michelle, he talks
about one of the things is the
circulation of the elites. And Emma
Goldman had this great essays about
majorities, minorities, and the point
she makes and you touched on earlier is
the majority cannot reason. The majority
in any society is ballast. And I know
people might roll their eyes at this,
but again, George Carlin's line, think
of the average person, half the people
are dumber than that. Uh, how many
people have an original thought ever in
their life? Doesn't mean they're bad
people. It's just they're just there for
the ride, right? So, the elites are kind
of the ones that we all need leaders.
That's not even, you know, a question to
some extent depending on what context.
So if you are the one who is I'm using
this very word very advisedly grooming
the next generation of leaders and you
know post World War II and the GI Bill
you know this was the great middle
American dream. It's that you know my
kid is the first one in our family to go
to college and you know this this status
this means something like it's a very
clear credential that shows that you are
on the ascension you know economically
and socially and all these other
regards. So it's become this is I think
the biggest bifurcation in American
society or at least it was the last time
I checked literally last time I checked
it's not gender it's not race it is did
you go to college or did you not go to
college maybe that's decreased since the
last time I checked but if you h what
happens is you have these you know
healthy beautiful young high school kids
going to school and then they return at
Thanksgiving dinner like a swamp walrus
unable to talk to mom and dad and that
is strictly and entirely the result of
the universities who have been I mean
since the 30s heavily literally Marxist
um and Marxism is synonymous with the
complete annihilation of any society
where it takes hold as I discuss in my
book the white pill
>> why what's the foundational problem that
it introduces
>> the Marxism is violently literally
violently egalitarian so if your most
important goal is equality well you
can't all be well, you can all be
equally rich if the term rich has no
meaning, but it's much easier to build
uh it's much easier to tear down all the
skyscrapers than to build a 100 of them
to the level of the Empire State
Building. You could do the former in a
day. Just 100 bombs, you're done. If you
want to build 100 Empire State
Buildings, good luck, right? So that
kind and also it teaches these kids
correctly that you are the leaders of
tomorrow. You get to meet fellow
travelers and kind of have those social
connections and you know it's very
aristocratic. You're the ones who are
going to be ruling in 10 15 20 years
from now and you're told it is your duty
and kind of like this is why you're in
this earth. So there's no sense of
humility. There's no sense of well maybe
that guy who didn't go to college he
knows a lot of things I don't in his
areas or maybe his feelings and his
views should be respected or heard. It's
it's not a thing. It's they're there.
We're here. They are there and they're
annoying when they don't know their
place because I thought we all
understood. I went to college, you
didn't. So therefore, I'm up here,
you're down here. Shut up. It's so it's
not just that they're given this sense
of elitism. It's that they're fed this,
you know, violently toxic ideology. So
that combination is horrific. Um it's
why you see corporate journalists being
so absolutely and shamelessly malevolent
and dishonest, which is part and parcel
of Marxism. Cuz leftism, Tom, you and I
are no spring chickens. And I say this
and people kind of roll their eyes and
scoff. When we were kids, there were a
lot of bleeding heart leftists. These
were older, like maybe former hippies
who really were concerned about poor
people and they volunteered in soup
kitchens and they're like, you know
what, it's not right that this family,
you know, doesn't have health care cuz
mom got sick. And that's coming not from
a bad place. And now that kind of and
people say, oh, that was never real. It
was real. you and I knew people like
this. It was absolutely real. You roll
their eyes cuz like you're so kind of
like earnest,
>> but that's not a thing now. It's just
very much kind of the revolution and and
control and domination. Um, and there's
no reason that that former brand of
leftism can't be resurrected
long term,
>> the earnest version of it. Okay.
>> They're like worried about poor people,
>> right? So, I'm going to read into your
thoughts and say that's where the
hopefulness comes from. Because as I
hear you describe the universities as uh
the villains of our time, break down
Marxism and exactly mechanistically why
it ends up being a problem. I do
admittedly get confused by how strongly
you push the ah the hopeful version of
where we're headed. Um because we've
been doing the university thing to your
point from the 30s. I'll clock it more
from the 60s in terms of it feeling like
the engine is really revving up.
>> Sure.
>> Um and I think it was Lenin that said
like give me one generation of kids and
I'll change the future.
>> That Yeah. Yes. That's quoted in my
book, The White Pill. I think that's
ascribed to Lenin. I don't know if he
actually said it.
>> Fair. But the kind of thing that you
could certainly see a guy like him
believing given his actions. Hitler
obviously ran the same playbook. Hitler
youth like give me the kids I'll train
them how to think. Uh so given that
we've trained so many generations of
kids to think like that and the that
Marxist tainted version of the left has
now gained so much steam and popularity.
How
>> popularity steam?
>> Okay. So momentum size.
>> I don't think it's popular in gen pop at
all.
>> I think Genpop's just following suit.
I'll throw out my take on that would be
that when you shift the Overton window,
a thing that people just take is
whatever like it it just is. There's no
longer an allergic reaction to it. Not
to the extent that I would expect.
>> I I I agree. So I think people
especially on right of center circles
underestimate how social leftwing
America is. M
>> so um if the fact that the trans thing
happened almost overnight
>> and even now it's hard to stop people
from operating on children is something
that is so um I think people need to
have that data point and realize and I
think there is this cope among right of
center circles that okay this is just
the crazies and Karen doesn't believe
this a lot more Karen believe it than
you think uh and a great examp of how
you know this is there are plenty of
people um and let's suppose you believe
in the whole entire co narrative. It's
very clear that if you're a child it is
not a problem, right? It strikes the
obese and the elderly. People have
weakened immune system so on and so
forth. If you're a kid, it's not a
thing, right? And they would still tell
you these kids have to get shots. Kid I
didn't like getting a needle in me as a
kid. I'm sure you didn't either.
>> No offense.
>> Have to get a shot every six months in
perpetuity. For why? There's not even in
their framework there's no reason for
this. So, and if you see how exciting
uh awful are affluent white female
liberals that their their boy I've never
heard that before.
>> Yeah. Affinity female liberals if their
son, god forbid, touches that pink
crayon, it's off to the races cuz now
they've got a girl. Right. So, I
remember do you remember soy when we
were kids there was Toys R Us, right? Of
course.
>> And this is illegal now in California. I
don't know if you know this. Uh, you
cannot have the aisles in the toy store
segregated by gender.
>> What?
>> You didn't know that?
>> No,
>> it's illegal.
>> What?
>> That is the most moronic thing I've ever
heard.
>> It's not the most. It's it's it's it's
up there. And I remember as a kid, this
probably happened to you, that you're
looking at the gobots and you turn the
corner and you're in pink Barbie land
and you panic cuz if someone sees me in
the pink Barbie land aisle, it's game
over. I don't know what I thought was
going to happen, but I'm like, ah. You
know, it's like being in North Korea. I
shouldn't be here. So the point is there
is a huge percentage of population that
will uh eat this up like slop. It's not
this tiny they'll just go with where the
wind goes.
>> Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Okay. So do you
see a way to unwind it? Like how do we
do we um defund universities that are
giving getting government dollars and
say you've got to balance out your
>> I know how to do it.
>> Ready? Tell me. Yeah. So, one of the
most effective methods of um victory is
turning your enemies against each other,
right? Taking coalitions and and making
them hate each other. So, my plan and I
say this only slightly tongue and cheek.
As I mentioned to you earlier, there's
no better indicator of uh economic
success success in America than having
college degree. Maybe being an heir, I
don't know, but other than that is
college degree. So, they are the
crystallization of privilege. That is
the most privileged population in the
United States. So seize all the
university endowments, distribute them
as reparations to the descendants of
American slaves as and then you have the
problem solved.
>> Okay. Only slightly tongue and cheek.
>> Only slightly tongue and cheek.
>> Now, who do you think that will make
hate who?
>> I don't know about hate, but if you're
promising black Americans,
>> uh, sorry, African-Americans
specifically, not blacks. If you're for
Jamaica, sorry, Kla Harris, you don't
get this money. If you're an
African-American and then you're this,
you know, uppidity white college kid,
those two are butting heads because
you're saying, I'm taking that money
from Harvard, giving it to you
>> and you want them butting heads. Why
those groups?
>> Because I think those two are ma big
coalition parts of the progress
coalition and they have very little in
common in any sense. It's just kind of
this historical accident. And I think it
would be very easy to cuz you have cuz
these kind of college kids are very um
uh entitled and I did two books with the
comedian DL Hugley uh from he's one of
the kings of comedy and one of the
things he talks about is this kind of
Malcolm X idea where you have this kind
of white elite condescension and anyone
who's black knows that tone of voice
where that that college kid that white
woman talks to them as if they're
talking to a dog. Oh my god, I love your
hair. that's so cool. And it's just like
they know what you're doing and you
think you're being friendly, but you're
being absurdly racist and patronizing
and you're just trying to mask your
discomfort or your position that you're
here, they're there, and you're talking
down to this fellow human being. So, uh,
and it's even the issue in minority
communities, uh, you know, Spanish
communities as well, like the people who
didn't even finish high school or who
just have a GED or college a high school
diploma and then someone goes off to
some bougie place and comes home. This
is a huge issue already. Um, it's the
same thing with like first generation,
first generation immigrants. They go to
school, they look at mom and dad in
their backward ways like in the
motherland and it's kind of this kind of
interf family uh sense of strife. So
that I think would be a very organic uh
uh mechanism to turn those two groups
against each other.
>> I'll take uh a lot of tongue and cheek
on that one. I get the point.
>> Now one thing that that
>> the tongue and cheek is about the
reparations. It's not about the seizing
the endowments.
>> Yeah, that's fair. Now one thing that
>> can I say one more last thing?
>> Of course. A lot of people have heard me
say this and gone after me and said,
"You call yourself an anarchist. How are
you going to defend? You're such a
hypocrite. You're sitting here defending
the government, seizing all these
endowments. How can you say that?" And I
go, "You know what I say? I don't care.
That's very direct."
>> That's I don't care.
>> Yeah. I I imagine in that hypothetical
that is uh it is a solution to a
problem, not necessarily your preferred
method of governance. That's right.
They're perfectly said. Yeah.
>> Okay. So, it does get at like all of
these different groups, subgroups in the
world. I feel like you mentioned James
Burnham before. So, reading that book,
The Mchavelians, made me realize that
once you can't control the narrative,
all bets are off.
>> That's right.
>> And I think it's going to be one of the
biggest changes in society is literally
all throughout human history, even
including the printing press and all
that, um, it's still been controllable.
you could more or less create the
illusion of this is the right thing, the
true thing to think.
>> That's gone.
>> And there's recently,
>> yeah, very recently, there's a sense of
chaos, my word, in all of that. Uh, so
I'm very curious like I have a you can
think of them as calibrating questions.
So what do you think who killed Charlie
Kirk for instance? what given how many
narratives are beginning to spring up
around that, how do you parse that?
>> So, I I'll answer I'll give you the long
version, I'll give you the short
version. In 1901, Leon Shaggosh shot
William McKinley in Buffalo, right? And
he gets up and I recount this also in my
book, The White Bill. He gets up and he
goes, "I was radicalized by Emma
Goldman." And she's like, "Oh, fuck."
And Emma, he had been hanging around
anarchist circles and they, this is
1901, they thought he was a fed cuz he
was so weird and no one knew who he was.
Like, who is this guy? He's something's
off with him. He's, he must be a fed.
So, she goes on the lamb and by the way,
I recently won an auction the autopsy
drawing of his brain. Uh, and two of the
telegrams when McKinley was dying and
then he died and they're framed to hang
in my house. So, she's on the lamb
because the argument was the president
was just shot. Clearly, there is this
big anarchist conspiracy or movement or
cell that decided to take McKinley down.
What's even funnier, Goldman gets caught
and is arrested and she goes, "I
sympathize with Leon and like President
McKinley's an idiot and and I want to
thank the cops for arresting me. uh
they've done more to recruit people to
anarchism than anything I've done in my
lifetime. So it's like I don't care
about the president. I side with the
assassin f the police. So she was really
a badass and they were people were out
for blood. I mean he died of course and
it's like and they had nothing to pin
her on because she had nothing to do
with it. It was just a crazy madman. I
think we all look for uh um there has to
be this is in any circumstance. This is
one of the reasons many people believe
in God. I'm not saying they're wrong to
do it, but it's like people have this
need for a sense of order and control.
>> Yeah.
>> And I think we know who did it. I think
this idea, this Israel derangement
syndrome where anything bad happens as a
result of Israel, it's like, let's
suppose it was Israel, right? First of
all, uh why wouldn't they just destroy
him if they're all powerful? Put CP on
his computer. Why wouldn't the killer be
have some the manifesto would be the big
one? have a manifesto that's that says
they're from Hamas or so Hamas or
something like that, you know, so on and
so forth. I had a tweet that I haven't
sent out and I'll say it to you and it
is so powerful in its chaos that I'm
scared to deploy it and I'm going to
reveal it on the show. You ready? It's
the first time I've I've thought of
something where I'm like this might be
too much even for me. Whoa.
>> Ready?
I want to reply to one of these people
and say, "When will you admit
that Kla Harris won the election and
Israel stole it for Donald Trump?" And
then you have to watch their brains
scramble and and so I I will say it to
you. I I'm not tweeting it out.
>> Not ready for that.
>> Not ready for that. Yeah. That is uh one
of my other calibrating questions is
what do you make of the phenomenon.
>> But one more thing just at the Charlie
point nowhere on the political spectrum
is Charlie Kirk public enemy number one.
>> Like if you had a list whoever you were
of people who were like if I got rid of
god forbid got rid of this person you
know things would be great. No one had
him there. He's not your guy. That's
another reason besides the many many
other reasons why this is so nightmarish
and horrific.
>> So the did you call it Israeli
>> ids
>> ids? Okay. So Israeli derangement
syndrome.
>> Uh so obviously that side has a
narrative and their narrative is goes
something like
>> can I say please one of my favorite ones
of these someone tweeted out they go I
it only took us 48 hours to realize that
Israel is behind this. They tweeted us
out on September 13th. September 12.
>> Like, gotcha, [ __ ]
>> No. As if I could have given you that
five minutes. It's Israel. Like, what?
What? Wait two days for everything's
Israel. It's obviously obviously Israel,
>> right?
>> Uh, were they being funny or did they
really mean it?
>> They meant they're like, "Oh, yeah. 2
days later we we realized
>> this this is IDS is getting wild from
where I'm sitting."
>> Yeah.
>> Uh, so their narrative would go
something like this. Um, even President
Trump admits that Charlie Kirk was
likely to become president.
>> Uh, yeah.
>> Okay.
>> Trump really did say it.
>> Okay.
>> Uh, that you you could be president one
day, I think, is what he said.
>> True.
>> Uh, that Charlie Charlie, it's my
understanding that Charlie had the
biggest or one of the biggest Tik Tok
accounts. I would assume by views.
>> Uh, that he was pro-Israel and really
did. I mean, just confirmed by the
president of um Turnpoint USA that those
really were tweets from him that said,
"I am left with no option except to
leave the pro-Israel movement."
>> Text. Yeah.
>> So, yeah. Did I not say tweets?
>> Oh, sorry. Thank you. Text.
>> Uh and so their whole thing is Yeah.
they that they can't have they can't
have somebody that influential. And so
the bad news is from a narrative
perspective, it's got enough surface
level like, oh yeah, like that checks a
box. If you're not going to go super
deep on it, you can see, okay, cool, got
it.
>> Sure.
>> Um,
>> but
to your point, it's like there are
probably a lot easier answers to get to
Charlie. There are other people that
would want to see him dead. Um, so my
thing is like even if you just take the
surface level, it's already a big enough
problem. the fact that somebody did
assassinate Charlie like who
assassinated him almost becomes
secondary but um sticking with IDS for a
second I want to know so I look at that
I'm admittedly a bit of an outsider to
this and that I never gave any of this a
thought until I saw probably about 18
months ago oh the Israel Palestine thing
is just not going away like this is
really ratcheting up
>> and I could see it like starting to like
>> seep into everything like all of a
sudden you just found it everywhere And
so it's what I refer to as the Jews. So
you've got people who talk about the
Jews and you've got people who talk
about the Jews. And
what is that? So when you look at
history, you just see pogram after
pogram after pogram. And when I see that
it's uh anytime the economy breaks bad,
people need someone to blame. You spill
into populism. We talked about this at
the beginning. Fear needs to become
anger. Anger needs a focus. I've read
mine comp and he you can almost feel
Hitler being like I need to blame
somebody. Who am I going to blame? We
need like a specific figure. We could
probably do the Jew. Like it felt like
that to me. It didn't feel like a guy
who's just hellbent. I'm going to make
it about them. It was somebody trying to
work. No, no, no. I know. But like there
was this sense in reading his own words
that I got where it was like,
>> oh, it's very I need somebody, they'll
fit the bill. Cool. Let's go with it.
But it was more I need somebody. And so
to me that's what sort of the
long-standing history of the pograms are
is well we need somebody. Now the
argument the counterpoint to that that
people will always make is well if
you've got one group that is always the
somebody like doesn't that say
something?
>> Sure.
>> So how do you make sense like it's you
can laugh about it but it just repeats
over and over and over.
>> So how do you make sense of that?
>> What do you make sense of it? How do you
make sense of the endless pograms? Why
why does it keep coming back to the
Jews?
>> Well, I don't first of all, I don't
think they were endless and I think it
depends on the country and so on and so
forth. Um, there's a great book called
The Satinization of the Jews and I
forget who it's
>> Satinization
>> as in making like Satan.
>> Okay.
>> Um, and it's by I forgot the guy's name.
Camille Palia recommended to me and I
was glad I read it, you know, 25 years
ago or 30 years ago at this point. Um
there's a there's first of all there's a
lot of historical reasons because if
something is in always in the background
right as soon as a hypothes it's out
there as soon as something go bad you be
like aha I knew it so you don't have to
be original you could just go back to
look this is something that's been as
you said earlier this is something
that's popped up historically there must
be a reason let's blame it right now
this whole concept of the Jews and I say
this as a Jewish person is
not as coherent as people would like it
to be because the biggest critic by far
of Israel in the Senate is Bernie
Sanders, right? And this argument also
is, well, we need this kind of white
nationalism where there's like no Jewish
influence. Vermont is the whitest or
maybe number two or number three state.
Bernie Sanders is their senator. They're
like the most leftwing state, I think,
maybe other than Rhode Island that there
is. So the argument is, oh okay, well
it's Jewish socialism. At the same time,
who is the one population that the
socialists hate? It's the banks. So if
the Jews are the socialists and the Jews
are the banks, do they want socialism?
Do they want capitalism? They say, well,
it's the same thing cuz they're
controlling it. It's like, okay, even if
it is this, even if it ends up with them
controlling it, what do they want it to
look like? Do they want it to look like
this capitalist system where the banks
and everything, or they want to look
like this communist Lenin thing? It's
like they don't care. Well, they do care
because the standard of living even for
Lenin or Stalin in the Soviet Union is
not the same as standard for living for
Michael Bloomberg or Steven Miller in
the Trump administration. So this
concept that it's this one unified hive
mind and the same time they're like,
"Oh, you're going to see Jewish
influence everywhere." It's like, well,
if it's everywhere, they're not all in
agreement, are they? Mhm.
>> Um the other thing is it's kind of
interesting how the gotcha is as you and
I both know plenty of Jewish people. I
went to yeshiva.
I would never call the Jews alpha. And
the argument is the Jews are the any
Jewish person is the most alpha person
in any room. So if you have a group of
10 people and there's one Jewish person,
he's in control. I don't need to look at
anything else. Oh, there's a Jew there.
They're doing what he says. Like he's
the natural leader. It's insane. So if
you have a publisher who is Jewish and a
reporter who is not Jewish, the
publisher is in control. But if you have
the publisher is like Jeff Bezos and the
reporter is Jewish, well then the
reporter is in control. So no matter
what situation there is in their minds,
if a Jewish person exists, he is running
the show. And I don't know what you
could say to that other than like go
outside, look at Woody Allen.
Yeah, it this this one I find uh very
>> one more thing it's fascinating is I
always say people don't look at a true
false filter but an us them filter and
if you want to have them be the Jews
which is your prerogative certainly
their definition of Jew just means bad
right so if they like Jimmy Kimmel when
he was suspended oh you know typical
Jimmy Kimmel's Catholic well you know
he's one of It's like anyone who you
don't like is Jewish. And if you like
someone who is Jewish, somehow you have
to make excuses for it
>> or explain it away.
>> It
>> I even saw people were saying that,
sorry, keep up. Some were saying that
Trump converted
>> to Judaism. And I don't know if you know
this, the process for conversion to
Judaism is like a yearong and you have
to keep kosher and it's really ownorous
because Jews don't proitize. So if Trump
converted, he first of all, he's not
wearing yamaka. kind of be a big tell.
He's working on Sabbath. That's another
big one you're not allowed to do. But
it's the kind of thing where like if you
disagree with this narrative anyway,
you're Jew controlled. So it's perfectly
uh internally consistent.
>> Yeah. Th this issue to me is dangerous
as a signal of where we're at in the
economy. Like there are certain things
that you can look at and when to know
whether you're in a healthy spot or not.
Uh, so are wages going up? Are uh young
people able to buy a house? How much
times the median income? Is a house?
Those kinds of things. But there's also
like what's the temperature on the Jews?
It's it's pretty wild. But here's what I
think is going to happen. Okay. I think
a lot of people because the de
Democrats, especially the woke aspect,
the Democrats were completely decimated
on social media after that last
election. So, a lot of people feel very
safe and very comfortable running their
mouths and saying awful things. And when
the Democrats regain their footing,
which again, they're the oldest
political party on earth. They know how
to seize and maintain power really well.
When they regain their footing, they're
going to they and their lackey in the
media, or actually the Democrats, the
lack of the media running the show are
going to be asking all these Republican
candidates, "What do you think about
this quote? What do you think about that
quote?" And no matter what they say,
it's not going to be enough for these
rabid people. the those people online
are going to turn those politicians.
You're going to have this huge divide on
the right and it's going to work for the
benefit of the Democrats.
>> What what do you see as the explicit
thing? They're going to try to pin them
down on their take on Jewish people.
>> What do you agree that Israel killed
Charlie Kirk? No politician's going to
do you. You agree that this this no
matter what they say because I I
mentioned this on um Andrew Schultz's
show. If I said to you, I think I said
this to you on your show as well, that I
think President Trump is if I said dumb,
he shouldn't be in the White House, he's
a racist, he's terrible for the economy,
he's a buffoon, I give him a C minus, do
you know what you call me?
>> A Trump supporter. Because unless I say
that President Trump is the worst thing
that's ever happened to America, unless
I say that this man intentionally is
trying to destroy this country, if I
say, you know what, I hate war more than
anything, it makes me sick to my
stomach. I cannot vote for Hillary
Clinton on that basis. I certainly can't
vote for Trump. I'm voting for Jill
Stein. Oh, you're a Trump supporter.
>> So if you voted for Jill Stein, you're a
Trump supporter in this logic. So in the
same way with this space, unless you say
that Israel is literally responsible for
every bad thing, but they are, you are
going to get so much heat from uh um
this wing of the base,
>> the wing of the base on the Democrat
party.
>> No, from the Republican from the right
the right-wing side. I would say
Republican.
>> Do you see Democrats and Republicans
being united on this? No, I see
Democrats exploit I I see Republicans
and these right-wing I'm not going to
call the Republican cuz they don't
identify as Republicans certainly I see
a huge divide between the Republican
politicians and this base who's like
unless you constantly are talking about
Israel you are bought and paid for by
them which very few
>> you don't think Democrats are on that
team as well
>> in what way
>> like what I see right now is basically
the acceptable opinion to have is that
Israel is the bad guy doing bad
That is an accept No, I'm sorry. I'm not
being clear. That is a perfectly
acceptable opinion. That's not the
opinion of these people I'm speaking
about. From their opinion, literally
everything including COVID, including
transing kids, including, you know, uh,
spending, everything is the fault of
they vacasillate sometimes between the
Jews and Israel. So the when these
Republican politicians are asked about
this and they say no, you know, I don't
think CO was a result of, you know,
Jewish power, they're not going, no
matter how pure you are, you're not
going to be pure enough for these people
because their definition, their
definition of Jewish is something I
don't like.
>> Right? I'm just trying to see cuz I see
this as it it is a tsunami that is
consuming both the left and the right.
that it is a far more risky position to
say that um like do you know Coleman
Hughes?
>> Sure.
>> So Coleman Hughes defends Israel and
what they're doing. Um
>> I can't believe I'm blanking on his name
again. British
>> Douglas Murray.
>> Douglas Murray, thank you. Uh Douglas
Murray defends them. Like they get a
wall of attack left, right, center,
doesn't matter. Like people are going to
go after them. So to me that I was
surprised that you were saying you
thought that was going to be
I'm talking about Jews. We're talking
Jews here. I'm not talking about Zionism
or anti-Israel because Israel is never
going to be that much of an important
issue when it comes to like the purses
and putting food on the table. I'm
talking about the divide that there's
going to be between right of center or
right-wing Republicans.
>> Yeah, I get the purity test idea. I'm
just saying I'm picking up on something
different. Get the purity test. I am I
am concerned deeply by the rise in
anti-semitism. I'm concerned deeply by
the scapegoating by everything somehow
being a conspiracy theory of Jewish
people. Because when I look in history,
every time that happens, that society is
unhealthy. I almost say on the brink of
collapse. I don't want to over dramatize
it, but it's like it it's like a mile
marker on the way to a bad destination.
And so I'm like, "Oh shit." Like we see
that mile marker. I've got instructions
that are like, "By the way, if you pass
the mile marker where it's the Jews are
bad, like you need to turn around and go
the opposite direction." I don't even
need context. I just know, oh, when you
see that mile marker, it bad things are
happening. Turn around.
>> Sure,
>> that's where I'm at. So, I see the left,
I see the right. Get it? Purity test.
Yep. The right is going to be divided.
For some people, it's not going to be
nearly enough. But I'm just saying,
"Hey, we're at the mile marker." And
that's the thing that I am very
concerned about. So, that is not me. Of
course, I'm going to get the same
comments like, "Oh, he's bought paid
for," which is hilarious. Uh, that is
people who do not understand my
background. But, uh,
>> this is the part of the show where you
should rip out the start.
>> This is where, uh, I remind people of
where I'm at economically. Um, so
>> you're like Ted Deiosi.
>> Yeah. I I don't need to be bought and
paid for by anybody, but it uh, as
somebody who really I don't have kids,
so I think of the next generation as my
kids. Sure. And so I'm super keen to
make sure that we're going in a good
direction. This mile marker I think
Warren screaming about and saying this
is bad news, but at the same time we
then have to contend with Israel
Palestine
like what do we do about that? Like do
you do you talk about that much? I don't
think it's our problem. I am I am like I
said earlier I am
it makes me um very saddened when people
who correctly understand that war is the
worst thing a government can do who see
innocent people being killed aren't not
optimistic hopeful that there that this
peace plan will work. I mean, I'm just
the fact to me that there's even any
kind of buyin from like people as
diverse as Iran, the US, the EU, and
Saudi Arabia. And the fact that Hamas
was clearly being pressured by their
kind of puppeteers to be like, "All
right, you know, kind of we're in on
this. I don't know that it's going to
work." I I I'm very I'm skeptical in
many reasons why it might might work.
But even talking and and discussing some
kind of what's that line about um
compromise is something that nobody
likes but everyone can live with.
>> Like this is something I would hope uh
if you want the killing to stop, which I
most certainly do.
>> Like let's hope that this works. And I
feel like there one of the worst things
about war
that not one of the worst this is maybe
it's like number 20 cuz the worst is all
the killing you know then the trauma you
know blah blah blah all the destruction
so maybe like number 20 but there are a
lot of people who are incentivized like
not just the war machine to make sure
this any war continues. I think we see
this in Ukraine. I think you know very
much I was born in Ukraine as as you
know I think it was very clear that
there was like a gun to Zilinski's head
to being like don't settle you know keep
the fight and and we're going to send
you arms and money. It's like yeah it's
great to have those arms and money but
you also have a lot of corpses. And I
was gladdened to see that the Ukrainian
people who are very proud people who
have very good reason to despise the
Russians with every fiber of their
being. You know I speak Russian. You
know, I was raised speaking Russian. I
just had an Uber driver here a couple
months ago. He was from Ukraine. We
spoke a little bit and as I was leaving,
I said, you know, uh
or something like that, some Russian
goodbye. And he looked at me like I had
slapped him because speaking Russian to
Ukrainian is like it's not as bad as the
N word, but it's up there. It's really
this huge measure of disrespect. And I
forgot that, but and I don't speak
Ukrainian. Um so the fact that even the
Ukrainians are like, "Okay, we we've
reached our limit." I I'm I'm glad to
see like I I don't want sections of
Ukraine under Russian control, but what
I want even less is more and more people
being killed, you know, by huge numbers.
>> Okay. So, uh the other thing I I'm going
to I just tweet this out the way here,
which is going to make you feel even
more scared, as you should.
AI. We are months away from AI being
being implemented to craft a social
media feed that only validates your
perspective.
>> Mhm.
>> So if you have Grock or Siri or any of
these characters and they're like, "This
is what I like." And you could you could
the algorithm knows what what what you
like and what you don't. Feed me stuff
that validates this.
>> Ignore stuff that disvalidates this. We
all have that kind of u um confirmation
bias. So what happens when you have an
entire population when and right now on
any issue you have a huge gamut of
perspectives, right? And there's no
referee to adjudicate who's right and
who's wrong. Like not that long ago you
had four networks and it was agreed that
the center left is some kind of big
consensus and you really very hard to
have any views outside of that. And
people on the right complained about
this not unfairly. Now the gates are
wide open. So, if I have a view that's
right here, soon I will only see news
that validates that view. How am I going
to have a conversation with you when I'm
in my Plato's cave and I'm seeing clear
as day, you know, it's red all the time
and you're like, "What are you talking
about? All I'm seeing is blue."
>> And not only are you not going to be
able to talk to me, you're going to
think that I'm crazy or lying because
you saw with your own eyes, blue, blue,
blue, blue, blue. What are you talking
about?
>> Yeah. You know, I I worry about al
algorithmic control. I think that
>> it's brave new world.
>> There's going to need to be some
regulation that allows people one that
forces companies to be transparent with
their algorithm and then two, you're
going to need to give people control
over the algorithm. And I get that
hastens the world that you're talking
about. However, it's better that than to
be blindly manipulated. If somebody
wants to um do that, I think they have
the right to do that. But they do want
they all want it. uh that I certainly
don't want it and so hopefully I can
bang the drum. Like I try to find people
who disagree with my most cherished
views. Okay.
>> Uh my producer is just off camera uh
knows to bring me guests that disagree
violently especially with the things
that I really think I know the most
about. Economics at Charlie.
>> I I use that uh very metaphorically of
course but I want people to challenge it
because of one very simple idea. Skills
have utility. So, I hold a belief, it
makes me feel something, but it doesn't
allow me to navigate in the real world
unless it's tied to reality. So, I'm
always trying to figure out what's most
useful. So, I take the pain of like, oh,
damn, I was wrong about that. But, I get
the and now I can do something in the
world that most people can't do because
they're just so in love with feeling a
certain way versus accomplishing a
specific task. So, anyway, I think most
people will spiral themselves out of
control because they'll just want to be
reinforced. But for people that really
are goal oriented, I think it'll be
extremely useful.
>> So tribalism, which is a word I don't
have an entirely negative opinion of,
>> if my goal is to maintain status status
in my tribe, then I want to be well read
within my worldview. And I think there's
more of those than there are of you.
>> There's no doubt. And partly because
just knowing that you actually have the
protection of a tribe is really, really
helpful. as somebody who I just do not
have any natural pro proclivities to um
group building is probably the the right
thing like I'm perfectly happy in total
isolation.
>> Yes.
>> Uh but I can feel how dangerous it is
and I can feel how dangerous it is from
this particular political moment being a
moderate knowing moderates get killed
first. It's like my moderates get killed
first
>> in a revolution they so the saying goes
and it makes Yeah. You've never heard
that phrase.
>> It's liberals get the bullet too.
>> Yes. moderates, diverse, and aerobic.
Anyway, here here's why it feels bad. I
decide whether to completely disagree
with you. Anyway,
>> that's perfect. I love it.
>> Uh whether that ends up being true or
not, the reason it feels bad is um so I
actually went to an event at um Marago
and for the first time I was like, "Oh,
this is why people want to be a part of
a group." All of a sudden, like all
these people that were influential on
YouTube in my space were all there
together. They all knew each other. They
were having each other on each other's
shows. And I was like, "Oh my god, if I
just started coming to events like this
all the time, I would see the same
people. I would get to know them. Like
you start being present on their show."
And I was like, "This would be really
good for my business." And I was like,
"Yeah, this is why people like to be in
a group." But it also gives you the
heruristic of vote this way, think this
way, say this thing, and you know you're
going to be in good company,
>> right? Sure.
>> I think people hunger for those
shortcuts.
>> What do you think about the way that
Candace Owens is parsing the world right
now? What do you mean?
>> So, I look at um Alex Jones and I think
this is somebody who either loves
conspiracies, has a mind for it, because
he's not necessarily always wrong, but
it's also a approach to the world of
nothing is what it seems. There's always
something going on behind the curtain.
Let me find the dots that connect. He
probably has a mind for unique
connections and so actually finds
pleasure in seeing how wait a second
that actually does connect to the
whatever. Okay. So, I'll def I have in
my house hanging over when you walk in
uh Alex Jones's tin foil hat. Okay. Uh
next to Tim Pool's beanie and above Lex
Freedman's tie and also the face paint
when the QAnon Shyman painted my face on
January 6th last year. Um I I talk about
this in my book then you write. Everyone
is a conspiracy theorist because
McDonald's, right, there's a small group
of people who sits down a much larger
population and teaches them how to
speak, how to dress, how to produce a
certain product to the point where if I
go to McDonald's in Los Angeles or go to
McDonald's in Augusta, Maine, it's going
to be the same thing. Right? So, a cons
and co was a great example of this.
Doesn't have to be nefarious. It is very
clear, not in dispute, and many people
would say this is great, that a huge
group of elites sat down, coordinated
between the different countries, you
might say necessarily, and had a plan
that differed in different country to
country, but basically was very heavily
coordinated and talking to each other,
so so on and so forth. So, conspiracy
theory is one of I I I oh my god, I I
remember this when I was I was my buddy
Jay. We're at a party of his in Brooklyn
and there's a guy there just very
bluepilled and I forget what Jay was
talking about and guys like oh yeah it's
a conspiracy theory and as soon as he
heard those ter that term he knew okay I
don't need to listen to anything else
this is crazy right so here's one the
founding fathers the constitution
convention was a conspiracy a group of
elites got down in Philadelphia swore
themselves to secrecy they lock the door
they say we really don't have the
authority to overthrow the RS
Confederation which been governing these
United States for that. They go, "Yeah,
but we're going to do it anyway." Right?
They're like, "Sure." They got their
constitution together. Uh I think it was
Luther Martin who blew the whistle on
them. And all of those colonies or
states at the time had dually
represented duly elected representatives
uh in in their state legislatores and
they said, "Yeah, we're not going to
listen to them. we're going to have
different elections just to vote for
people because we know that's going to
be more conducive to getting them to
kind of uh rubber stamp the
constitution. That's what they did. Now,
you don't think in those terms because
we like the founding fathers and there's
good. So, if it's conspiracy theory,
it's got to be nefarious. I don't think
anyone listening to this would deny that
powerful international elites such as
yourself are more interested in
furthering their power and have more in
common with powerful international
elites from other countries than they do
with say the guy from the Midwest. This
is not really in dispute. So, Alex is
right in that regard. As for Candace, um
I I don't think uh Bridget Mcron's a
man. I think she could. And I also when
people say something, I don't say that's
ridiculous. I had a friend who was
queuing on and they told me with a
straight face that all of Congress has
already been arrested and I forget what
such and such was going to happen. And I
didn't say, "Okay, that's ridiculous." I
said, "What would need to be true for
that to be a fact?" One of the things
that would need to be true is that 435
congressmen, I don't know about the
Senate, so let's just fence the House.
435 congressmen and probably their
spouses and their chiefs of staff. None
of them leaked. Now, that to me is less
likely than all of Congress has been
secretly arrested.
>> Um, there was also a theory that John
McCain was secretly executed for
treason, that he did not die of brain
cancer and so on and so forth. And it's
like, okay, what would need for that to
be true? If I want if I regarded John
McCain as treasonous and want to execute
him, I'm doing it publicly. The whole
point of these treason trials is to make
an example of the guy. So even that
case, so uh
as for the idea that literally
everything is the result of the Jews,
it's not falsifiable because things go
bad, things go good. Why aren't the Jews
making it good all the time? Or
conversely, if they want to destroy, why
aren't they making it bad all the time?
People like, well, everything's
everything's getting worse. I don't
think everything is getting worse.
So from a if I were going to take
something away, let's say that I'm a
person on the internet, I'm seeing these
different factions pop up, which I'll
say are essentially ways of parsing the
world. Um, you would say, all right, you
need to go in. I don't know if you are
comfortable with the phrase think from
first principles, but that's essentially
what I hear when you describe, okay,
what would need to be true for that to
actually happen? How would I falsify
this? It's very sort of scientific
methody. Um, so you've got to think for
yourself, building up from first
principles, not just taking the
shortcuts that people hand you.
>> And also don't start with the conclusion
and reason way backwards. Now, Jonathan
Height's book, The Righteous Mind, he
discussed this at great length. The
point is this is how we all morally
reason. This is another reason to be
very concerned about the future because
if you start from the conclusion and
then you work your way backwards, a
conclusion being the basis for your
thought is not disprovable. So, you're
not really going to get jarred out of
that conclusion. One of the things I'm
very big on, and I I apologize to you
again. You were at my house and you were
telling me a story and I was nodding out
>> and I'm of the view I hate if I'm going
to disrespect someone, it's going to be
on purpose.
>> But I'm serious. You know what I mean?
Like, if if I like someone, I respect
them, which I like and respect you. I
don't want to be disrespectful. I feel
very guilty about it and I feel it's
like humiliating, right? So, that was
one of the cues that something was
wrong. Um, but the thing is I was
getting 9 hours of sleep every night.
And the first time I took a Whimo, I
filmed it and I put on my Instagram and
all the I'm using this word as loosely
as possible. All the fans are like, "Are
you beating off in there? Why do you
sound like a pug? Is someone choking
you?" Cuz I was breathing so heavily.
Now, in retrospect, all these data
points are clear. But at the time,
nothing was making sense. So, I remember
my mentor Harvey Pecar toward the end of
his life, he was having he's getting
older. he was having memory issues. So,
he'd try to remember like past addresses
or things like that. And I could feel my
cognition starting to fade.
>> And if I don't have recall and if I'm
not quick with my tongue, what good am
I? I'm going to be out of work. I'm
going to be homeless, right? And at the
same time, every day when I was waking
up, my anxiety was like at 10:00. So,
I'd wake up like fully anxious. And the
thing with anxiety, which people might
not realize, is your body feels it
first, then your mind finds a
rationalization for it. Uh, a great
example of something like this that
really clicked for me was I was at the
gym. Uh, this was in back when I was in
Brooklyn, Harbor Fitness, and I was
doing chest press, and I had one more
set to do, and my brain's like, "You
better go home. You got writing to do."
And I'm like, "This is going to be 5
minutes." And I'm like, "Oh, my body is
tired." And it my brain knows what to
say to conserve resources. It's very
rare when we know that our brain is not
always telling the truth. Anxiety is one
of those examples. No matter what I
threw at it, I was taking Valyan root. I
was taking a little bit of GABA. It
wasn't helping. And then that makes me
more anxious cuz I'm like, is this how
I'm going to be for the rest of my life?
I'm losing if I walked up the stairs,
I'm out of breath. I was reading out
loud. I was out of breath. And I'm like,
I can't work out because one set I'm out
of breath. And I'm like, something is
seriously wrong. Then I'm anxious about
that. And that wasn't in my mind. And it
was very, very scary. And then one day I
woke up and this is the first time this
ever happened to me. I thought to
myself, I'm losing the will to live
because all the signs were in a bad
direction. And nothing was making sense.
I'm like, maybe I'm just getting old
prematurely. Like what is wrong with me?
And I wasn't making up these symptoms.
It's not like, oh, maybe my friends
don't like me. I went to a uh ear, nose,
and throat. And the guy goes, "The back
of your he go first." He goes, "You
don't look like someone who has this."
Which was great. U cuz it's usually for
morbidly abused people. The back of my
throat was all swollen because it would
I would breathe bre breathe through my
mouth so it would dry out then heal then
dry and heal. So it would look like
waffles. He said, "Oh shit."
>> I almost cried because it asked him if I
need surgery. Goes, "No." It was the
first time where I'm like, "Oh, I'm not
crazy." So what sleep apnnea is is
you're woken up many time not totally
just enough to get out of REM sleep
because you're choking right my ex was
like she's like you sound like you're
dying in in your sleep. So what happens
is
>> if someone is choking you for 8 hours
intermittently you're going to get
anxious
>> cuz you're going to have that fight or
the adrenaline is going to spike. That's
why I was waking up with anxiety. So I
got the machine and I was very quickly
back to myself.
>> But it was so scary and it was the first
time I understood people who end it. And
it's not that it was so severe. It's
that you get exhausted
cuz every single day is the same. And I
know tomorrow is going to be the same.
What is the point? It's only getting
worse. It was so scary. So, I talk about
this as much as I can because if this
sounds like you, someone who's like,
please get it tested. The sleep test is
very easy to do and it'll save your life
>> and been nothing but better since CPAT
machine. That's it. That was
>> You don't have to wear a m excuse me,
you don't always have to wear a mask. I
have something called nasal pillows. So,
it's just two little nozzles here and
it's very comfortable. It's not a huge
invasive thing. I The first night I
tried it, it was perfectly fine. Plus,
this is amazing. Also, you get how AI is
going to control us all. I have an app
which has a little score and it tells me
it there's four several metrics. How
long I used it, um how many incidents I
had, how good the seal was, and there's
a fourth one. And if I don't get that
100% score every day, I am troubled.
Even though literally no one else knows
what this score is, but it is training
me to sleep better. But what's that
going to happen when you have social
credit scores, things like that?
>> Uhhuh. Uh yeah, what do you think about
AI?
>> So if you look at um right now in San
Francisco, Whimo just overtook a lift to
be the number two uh uh ride share app,
right? Whimo self-driving cars.
>> What do you do when with that, and
that's only going to escalate. What do
you do with that middle-aged woman who
does not have a college degree, who's a
very lovely person and wants to make a
little bit of money on the side? Where
are you going to put her? The factory.
She's not going to the factory. And as
AI incre people say well they'll have
more and more jobs at a certain point AI
is better than let's not say the average
person the 40th percentile what are you
going to do with those people I have no
idea and I'm very scared and right now
we already seeing people outsourcing
their thinking to AI it used to be I'm
going to look it up on Wikipedia and
people have thrown my Wikipedia back in
my face and arguments with me I go yeah
I know what it says about my tree
Wikipedia I assure you I have a better
perspective on this but now I've had
Grock I've had art. I used art from I
put a picture from a cartoon I did with
the very failed podcaster Tom Woods.
People go, "Grock, what is this?" And he
goes, "That's from my graphic novel, Ego
and Hubus." And I go, "No, it's not."
They go, "Haha, very funny. It's
definitely from Ego and Huberus." So,
not only is it wrong, which Ike is fine,
it's certain in what it's saying. Now if
I'm sitting there and I don't have
information and Grock is saying I am
certain this is correct. I I wouldn't
double guess it.
>> Yeah.
Yeah. That AI is uh if you think of AI
as an abstract, it is intelligence. It's
the ability to process data. I think
they'll solve for most of those
problems. You'll find ways to get around
that. You've already got Elon building
up Groipedia. So if it gets good at
identifying what is true, especially as
humans can fact check it, I think you
you can deal with some of those. The
part that scares the life out of me is
humans have been wired for hundreds of
thousands, millions of years, depending
on if you clock us as like, you know,
prozzoa or tiny mammals or whatever. And
we are wired for no, no, no, you have to
go do this thing otherwise you're going
to die. And so we have these like really
intense impulses to do things. Uh we're
a very goaloriented creature. And so
meaning and purpose becomes one of the
ways that we get up and do it is like oh
this matters. This means something.
>> And when AI is better than us at
everything, then that's going to be a
pretty hopeless situation. I think
people are going to have to find some
way around that. I think I mentioned
earlier in the interview, um but we
didn't get really into it. So I think
that is going to happen on a long enough
timeline. Maybe it's 30 years, maybe
it's 50 years, maybe it's seven. Yeah,
>> it it's really going to be bad. And I
think a big part of the solution is
going to be virtual worlds. So, we'll be
in a post-economic situation.
>> Yeah. The matrix. You mean the matrix.
>> And people are going to need some
artificial
difficulty thing that's exciting and
challenging but meets that sort of sweet
spot. Uh, and I don't see that as
dystopia. When you look at that, is that
like wildly dystopic to you?
>> Is the matrix wildly dystopic?
>> If you are forced into the matrix
because you are um being enslaved by
something, yes, it's bad. But what I
always found interesting was Neo,
because he can choose, he loves it. He's
becoming literally inside the matrix,
he's becoming a superhuman,
>> right? And so, but he had to earn that
and he had to go on like this incredibly
Buddhist journey of realizing there is
no spoon and all of that. Like it's this
incredible place where you, as long as
it's by choice, you are able to go in,
explore worlds, push yourself in ways
you wouldn't be able to in the real
world. And I think just like people
climb mountains now, you will go into
these incredible worlds and really be
able to push yourself and find that
sweet spot of challenge.
>> What percent of the population do you
think is interested in pushing
themselves
>> without an impetus?
>> Yeah.
>> Two.
>> Okay.
Right. Okay. We're on the same page. Um,
I I think I've always said Brave New
World is far more likely than 1984. I
think this is Brave New World.
>> I think HL Mein nailed on the head when
he said the average man doesn't want to
be free. He simply wants to be safe.
>> Um,
>> now maybe I can let's let's steal man
this. Maybe it's great because, you
know, the 2% of us who like to push
ourselves, by which I mean obviously the
Jews, we're going to have our own little
space and the 98% can [ __ ] off and
basically be farm animals. Um, like it
says in the Talmud, but I am this is
kind of UBI kind of stuff. And I I think
>> I really love that about you
>> being that I'm Jewish. I think it's
there is
I am scared
um as you you are I'm sure at this
bifurcation
in this kind of H2L's time machine
between the Morlocks and the Eloy and
that different humans already people I
mean obviously someone who's wealthy and
someone who's like hand-to-mouth have
different experiences but not to the
point where they're literally in
different realities that is something
that is scary to me.
>> Yeah. No, I I the transition period will
be super wacky. I imagine that my most
controversial belief is that um I plan
to merge with technology and I think
that that is very distressing for a lot
of people.
>> You mean like when you uh put that
remote control dildo up there
>> that that obviously in fact I've enjoyed
this whole interview that much more
because of it. It's been buzzing
>> the whole time. Uh, no. I mean that I
think just like Neurolink right now is
literally helping the guy with ALS uh
control a robotic arm and is going to
give some of his life back. That will
eventually be like once people
understand how limited the humanelt is,
they'll be like, "Oh, wait a second."
Like there's a lot more that I could be
experiencing. Infrared light being just
like the most benol example.
>> You know, I have my DNA change rate.
>> I think you did tell me about this.
Yeah, you did tell me. I'm on I'm on
board with this to a point. Here's
what's here's let's let's go back to the
other side. Here's what's scary. Right
now, if I get an Uber cuz it's been four
years. I still haven't learned how to
drive since moving to Austin. And
everyone drives people crazy. And like
if it drives you crazy, I think it's
hilarious. So, calm down. I put the
address in the app. The Uber driver has
the app telling him where to go.
>> He's entirely superfluous. Yeah. So we
have made this human being who has needs
and values and feelings and is a real
person
>> secondary or superolous to technology
>> and I am not comfortable with at least
just like let's acknowledge this even if
it's a good thing if you don't care it's
something and I don't think enough
people are acknowledging this is
happening and again the point is oh he
can his labor is now freed up to do
something else but a certain point how
is he going to compete with the labor of
someone in Thailand or some you know
starving country where you could just if
it's especially with the internet you
could outsource things. So it gets
harder and harder to figure out what to
do with people like that. And I'm not
comfortable even my most right-wing
moments being like ah too bad because I
think very few people are really
comfortable with seeing mass uh uh
strife or mass hunger or even just mass
boredom. And mass boredom as you and I
know does not lead to good things. And
if the answer is put him in a video game
forever, fine. But I can't look at a
population where 1/4 whatever percent
are in headsets 24/7 and be like, "All
right, this worked out great for
everybody." What's interesting is
there's a lot of questions in astronomy
and uh astrobiology, why, if the aliens
are real, why haven't they been here?
Because they did the math. They're like,
"Okay, let's suppose space is infinite,
so there's got to be billions of of of
planets like Earth that could support
life, and some of them are going to be
millions of years technologically ahead
of us, you know, just doing the math.
How come none of them?" So, the
questions are, okay, maybe they didn't
show up here. We just didn't notice it.
Maybe the UFOs are. One of the theories
is what if we become the cocaine mouse,
right? If it gets to the point where
we're just hooked up to the machine and
it's just delivering pleasure to us 247
and we have no interest in going outside
the planet because we're just in this
kind of hedonistic lotus eaters space.
>> Yeah. So the one variation on that cuz I
I think that actually is the reason for
um the fairmy paradox is that
sufficiently yeah
>> okay
>> the Drake equation is what you were
talking about but the fairmy paradox is
the answer to the what the hell like why
is there nobody and the reason I think
that that plays out is any tech any
civilization that becomes
technologically advanced enough to bend
spaceime will have long before figured
out that traveling inside of a virtual
world is far less less dangerous,
requires far less energy, and so you're
far more likely to do that would be my
guess. Uh, but I actually think it'll be
a bit of both. I think what's going to
happen with AI is people will have a
need for hardship. We will have a need
whether people are smart enough to
understand it or pursue it or want it
won't matter. They'll feel a profound
sense of disease without it. And so some
people will uh sign up to go to Mars.
And you you'll get people that are like,
"Cool, put put life on hard mode. I'm
going to go live on Mars and that's
going to be rad." and it's like starting
a uh for anybody that's a survival
crafting game fan, Mars is the survival
crafting game. So, I think a ton of
people are going to go there and then I
assuming that things go the way that I
plan. I'm building a video game right
now, but it's just a video game and it's
the kind of thing you'll play on your
PC.
>> Um, but you know, give it another 15
years and in success if I'm able to keep
building, then it really does start to
become some approximation of that. I
think we're probably more than 15 years
out from people like truly jacking into
the matrix,
>> but barring some catastrophe, we're not
more than 30 years out. So,
>> look at World of Warcraft. How many
Yeah, that that's a good example of
this.
>> So, and I think inside of those worlds,
I get people, especially if people
believe in God, like there's a real
moral repulsion to that idea and and
certainly understand that. I'm not
trying to convert people or convince
them but um I certainly will be
in success trying to build something
like that so that myself if nobody else
can go on these insane adventures cuz
I'm assuming we're in a post-economic
world. So the game that I play now of
entrepreneurship of trying to make
people's lives better by building things
that solve problems for them and then
being enriched as a result of it that
just won't exist. So, in a world where
that doesn't exist, I've got options. I
can be what I call new Amish and I can
go reject technology completely. And
fair enough, I think a lot of people
will do that and I'm sure their lives
will be amazing. I'm just not that
doesn't appeal to me. So, I would rather
go this other direction.
>> Have you had Brett Weinstein in your
show yet?
>> Yeah, I love Brett. Um, so Brett is
either an evolutionary biology or
evolutionary psychologist. I forget
which one it is. Biologist. And I had
this hypothesis and I threw it to him
and he's like, "Yep, you're right." And
it was very validating to hear from his
who I respect enormously. And my I
edited a book called The Paleo Manifesto
by John Durant, my buddy John who lives
a block away from me. Great book.
Everyone should pick it up. And one of
the concepts behind paleo is that our
diets and our technology regarding our
diets evolve faster than we have
biologically. So there's a disconnect
between what we eat and what we should
be eating. So the more the close to
nature and the more pro less processed
food the better it is. I don't know how
much I believe it but as a uristic I
think it's a pretty good one you know
just all things considered. One of the
things I asked Brett about was are we
are evolved to be scarcityfearing
creatures right like we are worried
about what what happens with the winter
where's the next meal going to come so
on and so forth. The point is what
happens when Maslo's hierarchy of needs
or most of it has been fulfilled? What
happens when I don't have to worry about
shelter? I don't have to worry about
food. I don't have to worry about
clothing. You know, maybe I I can't have
intimacy with a partner, but I could
certainly reach that point by myself
with my hand, right? When when that's
checked off, what is the brain going to
be content? No,
>> the brain, right? Cuz the brain is still
going to be looking for problems to
solve. And I think that might be a part
of what we're seeing in politics when
people's basic needs have been met. And
not that you and I both know people live
through depression who like, you know, I
I don't know where I got this idea. This
is one that I cuz this is not something
we did as when I was a kid, but if I
have hand soap and I have one that's
almost done, I will pour the remainder
of one into the other one. Even though
it's literally sense and I would make
more money not doing that than if I go
and tweet or something, but somehow it's
in my brain. what happens to PE and the
thing is I think you get neurosis and
you have this kind of it's externalized
and co was a good example because if I'm
neurotic if I have mental problems or
anxiety depression now it's not the
call's not coming from outside the house
it's everywhere if there's one person in
California who's not vaccinated I have a
right the television tells me to freak
out all the time so I think more and
more of this is something I'm going
we're going to be seeing and you know
this I think is one of the, you know, we
talk about trade-offs and and capitalism
having all these benefits. This might be
one of the hidden costs that it doesn't
calm that animal brain. And video games
would be a good example of, okay, go
solve these imaginary problems. Go
finish that quest cuz now you're kind
of, you know, animal brain has something
to worry about.
>> Yes. One of the things that drives me
crazy as we as a world look at how to
solve these problems is people do not
understand that everything is a
trade-off.
>> Yeah, good point. This reminds me of a
story. I have a friend who what what
should we call him?
>> Bobby.
>> Bobby. Okay. Bobby wanted to start a
protein bar company.
>> I like Bobby already.
>> He's a good guy. You like him a lot.
So, as you know perfectly well,
what's the main ingredient in protein
bars?
>> Protein powder.
>> That's right. Camel hump fat. So, Bobby
was in his garage
with his camel hump fat.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Dulling it out trying to make his
protein bars. So, that's the base of any
protein bar. Camel hump fat,
>> as everybody knows. as everybody knows.
But the thing is, camel hump fat doesn't
taste very good by itself. So, and it's
not high in protein. It's high in it's
literally all fat. So, where's the
protein in protein bars come from?
>> Milk.
>> That's right. Nice try. So, the the
protein in every protein bar in the
market is obviously beetle larae.
>> Obviously.
>> So, Bobby had his beetle larvae.
>> This is really beetle larvy, isn't it?
>> And well, yeah. This is how you make
protein bars. You talk to this,
>> buddy. All right.
>> So, he's in there and he's in his
garage.
>> Feel like I'm making protein bars with
Claus Schwab right now.
>> And he's in his garage grinding,
grinding, grinding,
>> grinding, grinding, grinding. Now, the
problem is grinding, grinding, grinding.
In fact, he was spending so much time in
his garage grinding these protein bars.
It caused problems in his marriage cuz
his wife's like, "You're spending too
much time with your grinder." And it's
starting starting to give me questions.
Grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding,
grinding. Now, here was the big problem.
So, camel hump fat.
There we go. Camel hump fat causes
diarrhea.
>> Uhhuh.
>> Beetle larae causes vomiting. So, this
was a big issue for Bobby because if he
added too much camel fat, a lot of
people would get
>> diarrhea. If he has the beetle larae,
>> too much vomiting,
>> too much vomiting. how is he going to
solve this issue
>> for his customers. This quest
>> took over all his thinking
and he didn't really know what to do. So
sometimes he added a little bit more
fat. Let's add a little bit more fat.
>> I'm so afraid you're going to eat this.
>> Well, you have to try it. And then
sometimes he added
>> one of us maybe.
>> And sometimes he added a little bit more
beetles. Beetle larae. And then what's
he doing in his garage? Grinding,
grinding, grinding, grinding, grinding,
grinding, grinding, grinding.
>> All right, let's get it. Let's taste it.
What do you think, Tom?
>> I think Bobb's on his own.
>> So, he tried it. Oh god.
Try it.
at
those are moving, dude.
What is happening?
>> He couldn't get it quite right.
>> Oh my god.
>> So,
what did he realize?
>> Uh-huh.
You're Some of these diarrhea is going
to be so severe people will have to go
to the hospital die. Sometimes the
vomiting is going to be so severe people
go to the hospital even die. But
>> yeah,
>> if you get to a point where you're
selling so many protein bars
>> Mhm.
>> that you can pay off those people who
are ill or in certain cases even passed
away, you've solved the quest. The point
being, whatever your product or goal is,
you're never going to achieve
perfection. The point is you have to
reach a point where the benefits
outweigh the costs and you're never
going to have a costfree situation. It's
like Thomas Soul said, there are no
solutions, only trade-offs.
And that is how protein bars are made.
>> Uh-huh. So,
>> we've had different protein bar
experiences.
>> Sometimes they don't grind it all the
way.
Michael, I really want to believe that's
a prop, but that's real. Oh my god.
>> What's the big deal?
>> You'll eat uh you'll own nothing and
you'll love it. You'll get all your bugs
and your protein.
>> Okay, I'm I'm This is me and my autism.
Why is this a big deal if you eat like
shrimp?
>> Are you serious?
>> I'm not getting it all. It's
>> If the shrimp were alive, I have a
problem.
>> Really?
>> Yes. It's the Well, admittedly, I have a
problem with both because they look like
worms and I have an evolutionary
aversion to anything that looks like a
worm. You don't have the evolution
version because worms are high source of
protein. So if anything,
>> hard pass. They are parasites.
>> Worms. Earthworms are not parasites.
>> Earthworms. No, but worms. Yes.
>> Correct. So these do not look like the
parasitic worms at all.
>> Man, there is something in my brain.
Even as a little kid, I hated
earthworms. I hate those worms. Anything
that moves like that.
>> I don't understand how this is
grotesque.
>> Okay,
>> this is wild.
>> I understand. But on a rational point of
view,
>> sure, if I was starving to death, I
would eat problem.
>> But what? You're someone who likes to
push himself. You know this
>> in ways that make sense. I see no upside
to I cannot believe I'm impressed that
you
know I'm not going to taste your kudos
>> because this is completely unimpressive.
It is again like two grains of rice.
There's no taste. It doesn't pop. It's
not gross. It's not like biting into my
mouth. What's the big deal?
Literally.
>> They're gross. But what is I understand
they're gross, but it's like you've
eaten [ __ ] haven't you? Like
seriously, like this.
>> Look how little.
>> Dude, wait. Hold the phone. Are you
saying that you cannot see a category
difference between
I'm saying you eat gross things?
>> I'm saying you've eaten gross things.
>> I would not categorize vagina as gross
things, but
>> I mean, there's a lot going on down
there.
>> Yeah. Uh, hey, I'll take it. It's a good
life lesson. Thomas Soul would be proud.
I I I'm I'm really surprised.
>> Are you really surprised?
>> Yes, I I get these cuz they're big and
pulsating.
>> But the reason this bit works is because
that's nasty.
>> I agree. But okay, so autism speaking
again when people like you'll eat the
bugs. I don't see how cricket flour is
worse than like like chicken like me.
>> Cricket flour admittedly once it's in
that format is purely psychological.
Totally understand. If I grew up in a
culture where that was normalized, oh my
god. uh then I wouldn't think about it,
but I was not. And so
>> I've never done that before and I didn't
know if I could and it was surprisingly
not a big deal.
>> I'm shocked that you did it. I thought
he's gonna like Okay. And this is where
you cut.
>> I got to commit to the bit.
>> You did commit to the bit. I'll give you
that. Just for the record, that is not
how protein bars are made. But thank
you, Mr. Malice, for that. Dude, this
was amazing. Thank you so much as always
for spending time with me. Where can
people follow along with you?
>> I'm on Twitter at Michael Malice and my
locals is malice.locals.com locals.com
and I've got a graphic novel coming up
which I'm excited to talk to you about
um when it's done.
>> I can't wait to see that.
>> Yeah.
>> Awesome. All right, everybody. If you
have not already, be sure to subscribe.
And until next time, my friends, be
legendary. Take care. Peace.
>> If you like this conversation, check out
this episode to learn more. From the
1940s through the Cold War, onethird of
the CIA's entire budget was devoted to
media manipulation. They do not want you
thinking for yourself. Today, the same
tactics have gone digital and are far
more ubiquitous.